Guest guest Posted July 7, 2007 Report Share Posted July 7, 2007 For people interested in recent books about Kali in the English language. I've put together a website with reviews of books about * Goddess Kali * Kali-related Tantra * Kali-like figures in dreams etc 10 detailed reviews of major works of the last two decades... reviews which look at both the value and the limitations of each book. I hope this site will be helpful to people who are beginning to explore modern Kali-related literature, and will also provide food for thought to people already familiar with it. Please take a look and let me know what you think... http://home.pacific.net.au/~ferment/reviews.html Om Shantih Colin Robinson Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 9, 2007 Report Share Posted July 9, 2007 I'm not sure abou Malcolm(?) McClean's (in his book " Devotion to the Goddess " ) estimation of Tantra and monism. I doubt that Tantrists think that Goddess Kali is not ultimately real, but only a symbol. I don't think that is how monism works. I believe that the idea is that deity is not outside of oneself, but the reverse is similar. We are not outside of deity either. Is our existence mere symbolic? Stephen --- colin777au <colinr wrote: > For people interested in recent books about Kali in > the English language. > > I've put together a website with reviews of books > about > > * Goddess Kali > * Kali-related Tantra > * Kali-like figures in dreams etc > > 10 detailed reviews of major works of the last two > decades... reviews which look at both the > value and the limitations of each book. > > I hope this site will be helpful to people who are > beginning to explore modern Kali-related > literature, and will also provide food for thought > to people already familiar with it. > > Please take a look and let me know what you think... > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~ferment/reviews.html > > Om Shantih > Colin Robinson > > > Ganesa16 ______________________________\ ____ Get your own web address. Have a HUGE year through Small Business. http://smallbusiness./domains/?p=BESTDEAL Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 Of interesting note - along that subject - even Ramakrishna, during tantric practice - was forced to go beyond Kali - by slicing through her image with a sword (in his mind) in order to truly be set free http://www.cosmicharmony.com/Av/RamaKris/RamaKris.htm Then Totapuri asked Ramakrishna to withdraw the mind completely from all objects and dive into the Atman. This he was used to doing to have ecstatic communion with the Divine Mother. But when he tried to go to a still higher plane, there was She always, blocking his way to a vision of the formless absolute by presenting Her own charming form to his sight. Totapuri pressed a pointed piece of glass between his eyebrows and told him to concentrate all his energies at that point. Sri Ramakrishna once again concentrated intensely and when the vision of the Mother appeared before him he used his discrimination as a sword to severe the image in two and soared into the heights of Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Totapuri closed the doors and left him in that state and to his utter amazement, he remained rigid and lost to the outer world for three days. At the end, in disbelief Totapuri reentered and slowly began to bring his disciple back into waking consciousness by chanting a sacred mantra - Hari OM. He was astonished that Ramakrishna had attained in one day what it had taken him forty strenuous years to accomplish. Kali_Ma , ganesa16 <ganesa16 wrote: > > I'm not sure abou Malcolm(?) McClean's (in his book > " Devotion to the Goddess " ) estimation of Tantra and > monism. I doubt that Tantrists think that Goddess Kali > is not ultimately real, but only a symbol. I don't > think that is how monism works. I believe that the > idea is that deity is not outside of oneself, but the > reverse is similar. We are not outside of deity > either. Is our existence mere symbolic? > > Stephen > > --- colin777au <colinr wrote: > > > For people interested in recent books about Kali in > > the English language. > > > > I've put together a website with reviews of books > > about > > > > * Goddess Kali > > * Kali-related Tantra > > * Kali-like figures in dreams etc > > > > 10 detailed reviews of major works of the last two > > decades... reviews which look at both the > > value and the limitations of each book. > > > > I hope this site will be helpful to people who are > > beginning to explore modern Kali-related > > literature, and will also provide food for thought > > to people already familiar with it. > > > > Please take a look and let me know what you think... > > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~ferment/reviews.html > > > > Om Shantih > > Colin Robinson > > > > > > > > > Ganesa16 > > > > ______________________________\ ____ > Get your own web address. > Have a HUGE year through Small Business. > http://smallbusiness./domains/?p=BESTDEAL > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 Namaste Stephen. I believe that the > idea is that deity is not outside of oneself, but the > reverse is similar. We are not outside of deity > either. Is our existence mere symbolic? A good question, and an excellent point! As I said in the review, I'm far from convinced by Malcolm McLean's interpretation of Ramprasad. Still, there is one thing to be said in defence of McLean... What he says about the meaning in Tantra of Kali and other devatas is not just his own opinion. It is based on the book _History of the Tantric Religion_, by N.N.Bhattacharyya (published by Manohar, Delhi, 1982). McLean quotes the following passage from Bhattacharyya: " It should be noted... that these deities have only a symbolic significance in Tantric cults - their names are used to define some special positions in the cakras and yantras, each of them representing a typical attribute , or quality, or element and not the concrete person of the sectarian god. " Bhattacharyya's book, like McLean's, is one which I'd recommend for the historical/textual material presented, whether or not we find its interpretations entirely convincing... Om Shantih Colin of Ferment http://home.pacific.net.au/~ferment/ Kali_Ma , ganesa16 <ganesa16 wrote: > > I'm not sure abou Malcolm(?) McClean's (in his book > " Devotion to the Goddess " ) estimation of Tantra and > monism. I doubt that Tantrists think that Goddess Kali > is not ultimately real, but only a symbol. I don't > think that is how monism works. I believe that the > idea is that deity is not outside of oneself, but the > reverse is similar. We are not outside of deity > either. Is our existence mere symbolic? > > Stephen > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 Kali_Ma , " Andy " <happytheclown37 wrote: > > Of interesting note - along that subject - even Ramakrishna, during > tantric practice - was forced to go beyond Kali - by slicing through > her image with a sword (in his mind) in order to truly be set free But after doing this, didn't Ramakrishna return to a state where he could experience Mother Kali as a You? I think you'll find this mentioned in the single best known book about him, the _Gospel of Sri Ramakrishna_. Om Shantih Colin of Fement http://home.pacific.net.au/~ferment/ Kali_Ma , " Andy " <happytheclown37 wrote: > > Of interesting note - along that subject - even Ramakrishna, during > tantric practice - was forced to go beyond Kali - by slicing through > her image with a sword (in his mind) in order to truly be set free > > http://www.cosmicharmony.com/Av/RamaKris/RamaKris.htm > > Then Totapuri asked Ramakrishna to withdraw the mind completely from > all objects and dive into the Atman. This he was used to doing to have > ecstatic communion with the Divine Mother. But when he tried to go to > a still higher plane, there was She always, blocking his way to a > vision of the formless absolute by presenting Her own charming form to > his sight. Totapuri pressed a pointed piece of glass between his > eyebrows and told him to concentrate all his energies at that point. > Sri Ramakrishna once again concentrated intensely and when the vision > of the Mother appeared before him he used his discrimination as a > sword to severe the image in two and soared into the heights of > Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Totapuri closed the doors and left him in that > state and to his utter amazement, he remained rigid and lost to the > outer world for three days. At the end, in disbelief Totapuri > reentered and slowly began to bring his disciple back into waking > consciousness by chanting a sacred mantra - Hari OM. He was astonished > that Ramakrishna had attained in one day what it had taken him forty > strenuous years to accomplish. > > Kali_Ma , ganesa16 <ganesa16@> wrote: > > > > I'm not sure abou Malcolm(?) McClean's (in his book > > " Devotion to the Goddess " ) estimation of Tantra and > > monism. I doubt that Tantrists think that Goddess Kali > > is not ultimately real, but only a symbol. I don't > > think that is how monism works. I believe that the > > idea is that deity is not outside of oneself, but the > > reverse is similar. We are not outside of deity > > either. Is our existence mere symbolic? > > > > Stephen > > > > --- colin777au <colinr@> wrote: > > > > > For people interested in recent books about Kali in > > > the English language. > > > > > > I've put together a website with reviews of books > > > about > > > > > > * Goddess Kali > > > * Kali-related Tantra > > > * Kali-like figures in dreams etc > > > > > > 10 detailed reviews of major works of the last two > > > decades... reviews which look at both the > > > value and the limitations of each book. > > > > > > I hope this site will be helpful to people who are > > > beginning to explore modern Kali-related > > > literature, and will also provide food for thought > > > to people already familiar with it. > > > > > > Please take a look and let me know what you think... > > > > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~ferment/reviews.html > > > > > > Om Shantih > > > Colin Robinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ganesa16 > > > > > > > > > ____________________ ______________ > > Get your own web address. > > Have a HUGE year through Small Business. > > http://smallbusiness./domains/?p=BESTDEAL > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 10, 2007 Report Share Posted July 10, 2007 Interesting point you brought up and the answer to your question is, i don't know . I have " Gospels of Ramakrishna " but i haven't read the book yet. When i read it, i'll have a better idea. There is no doubt that the form of Kali is what speaks to me. But in a bigger picture - it's hard for me to accept that the form of Kali is the be all and end all in the concept of God (or Goddess - if you will). It just seems to convenient, too easy, there are many different religions with different concepts - all claiming they have the inside track to the " real " form of " God " - even within hinduism (for example Hare Krishna) - it just seems too pompous to me (this is just my opinion) for one one group to think they have the inside scoop on the real version of God - even - if the particular Goddess worshipped is the one that I personally hold most dear. I think that most hindus that believe in whatever deity speaks closest to them, whether that be Krishna, Kali, Ganesha, Shiva, etc - don't believe that " form " to be the be all/end all - but rather a manifestion of the same uncomprehendable divine spirit that manifests into so many other forms. Kali_Ma , " colin777au " <colinr wrote: > > Kali_Ma , " Andy " <happytheclown37@> wrote: > > > > Of interesting note - along that subject - even Ramakrishna, during > > tantric practice - was forced to go beyond Kali - by slicing through > > her image with a sword (in his mind) in order to truly be set free > > But after doing this, didn't Ramakrishna return to a state where he could experience Mother Kali > as a You? > > I think you'll find this mentioned in the single best known book about him, the _Gospel of Sri > Ramakrishna_. > > Om Shantih > Colin of Fement > http://home.pacific.net.au/~ferment/ > > > Kali_Ma , " Andy " <happytheclown37@> wrote: > > > > Of interesting note - along that subject - even Ramakrishna, during > > tantric practice - was forced to go beyond Kali - by slicing through > > her image with a sword (in his mind) in order to truly be set free > > > > http://www.cosmicharmony.com/Av/RamaKris/RamaKris.htm > > > > Then Totapuri asked Ramakrishna to withdraw the mind completely from > > all objects and dive into the Atman. This he was used to doing to have > > ecstatic communion with the Divine Mother. But when he tried to go to > > a still higher plane, there was She always, blocking his way to a > > vision of the formless absolute by presenting Her own charming form to > > his sight. Totapuri pressed a pointed piece of glass between his > > eyebrows and told him to concentrate all his energies at that point. > > Sri Ramakrishna once again concentrated intensely and when the vision > > of the Mother appeared before him he used his discrimination as a > > sword to severe the image in two and soared into the heights of > > Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Totapuri closed the doors and left him in that > > state and to his utter amazement, he remained rigid and lost to the > > outer world for three days. At the end, in disbelief Totapuri > > reentered and slowly began to bring his disciple back into waking > > consciousness by chanting a sacred mantra - Hari OM. He was astonished > > that Ramakrishna had attained in one day what it had taken him forty > > strenuous years to accomplish. > > > > Kali_Ma , ganesa16 <ganesa16@> wrote: > > > > > > I'm not sure abou Malcolm(?) McClean's (in his book > > > " Devotion to the Goddess " ) estimation of Tantra and > > > monism. I doubt that Tantrists think that Goddess Kali > > > is not ultimately real, but only a symbol. I don't > > > think that is how monism works. I believe that the > > > idea is that deity is not outside of oneself, but the > > > reverse is similar. We are not outside of deity > > > either. Is our existence mere symbolic? > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > --- colin777au <colinr@> wrote: > > > > > > > For people interested in recent books about Kali in > > > > the English language. > > > > > > > > I've put together a website with reviews of books > > > > about > > > > > > > > * Goddess Kali > > > > * Kali-related Tantra > > > > * Kali-like figures in dreams etc > > > > > > > > 10 detailed reviews of major works of the last two > > > > decades... reviews which look at both the > > > > value and the limitations of each book. > > > > > > > > I hope this site will be helpful to people who are > > > > beginning to explore modern Kali-related > > > > literature, and will also provide food for thought > > > > to people already familiar with it. > > > > > > > > Please take a look and let me know what you think... > > > > > > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~ferment/reviews.html > > > > > > > > Om Shantih > > > > Colin Robinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ganesa16 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________ > ______________ > > > Get your own web address. > > > Have a HUGE year through Small Business. > > > http://smallbusiness./domains/?p=BESTDEAL > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 12, 2007 Report Share Posted July 12, 2007 Thank you for this thoughtful posting, Nishira. > There is no doubt that the form of Kali is what speaks to me. Finding a form that speaks to us is an important discovery. When it happens, we need to listen. I do agree with you that the Divine is more than one form, or for that matter one name. As Lord Shiva says to the Goddess in the Mahanirvana Tantra: " Thou art both Subtle and Gross, Manifested and Veiled, Formless, yet with form. Who can understand Thee? For the accomplishment of the desire of the worshipper, the good of the world, and the destruction of the Danavas, Thou does assume various forms. Thou art four-armed, two-armed, six-armed and eight-armed, and holdest various missiles and weapons for the protection of the Universe. " (chapter 4 verse 15 to 17) Om Shantih Colin http://home.pacific.net.au/~ferment/ Kali_Ma , " Nishira " <happytheclown37 wrote: > > Interesting point you brought up and the answer to your question is, i > don't know . I have " Gospels of Ramakrishna " but i haven't read the > book yet. When i read it, i'll have a better idea. > > There is no doubt that the form of Kali is what speaks to me. But in > a bigger picture - it's hard for me to accept that the form of Kali is > the be all and end all in the concept of God (or Goddess - if you > will). It just seems to convenient, too easy, there are many > different religions with different concepts - all claiming they have > the inside track to the " real " form of " God " - even within hinduism > (for example Hare Krishna) - it just seems too pompous to me (this is > just my opinion) for one one group to think they have the inside scoop > on the real version of God - even - if the particular Goddess > worshipped is the one that I personally hold most dear. > > I think that most hindus that believe in whatever deity speaks closest > to them, whether that be Krishna, Kali, Ganesha, Shiva, etc - don't > believe that " form " to be the be all/end all - but rather a > manifestion of the same uncomprehendable divine spirit that manifests > into so many other forms. > > Kali_Ma , " colin777au " <colinr@> wrote: > > > > Kali_Ma , " Andy " <happytheclown37@> wrote: > > > > > > Of interesting note - along that subject - even Ramakrishna, during > > > tantric practice - was forced to go beyond Kali - by slicing through > > > her image with a sword (in his mind) in order to truly be set free > > > > But after doing this, didn't Ramakrishna return to a state where he > could experience Mother Kali > > as a You? > > > > I think you'll find this mentioned in the single best known book > about him, the _Gospel of Sri > > Ramakrishna_. > > > > Om Shantih > > Colin of Fement > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~ferment/ > > > > > > Kali_Ma , " Andy " <happytheclown37@> wrote: > > > > > > Of interesting note - along that subject - even Ramakrishna, during > > > tantric practice - was forced to go beyond Kali - by slicing through > > > her image with a sword (in his mind) in order to truly be set free > > > > > > http://www.cosmicharmony.com/Av/RamaKris/RamaKris.htm > > > > > > Then Totapuri asked Ramakrishna to withdraw the mind completely from > > > all objects and dive into the Atman. This he was used to doing to have > > > ecstatic communion with the Divine Mother. But when he tried to go to > > > a still higher plane, there was She always, blocking his way to a > > > vision of the formless absolute by presenting Her own charming form to > > > his sight. Totapuri pressed a pointed piece of glass between his > > > eyebrows and told him to concentrate all his energies at that point. > > > Sri Ramakrishna once again concentrated intensely and when the vision > > > of the Mother appeared before him he used his discrimination as a > > > sword to severe the image in two and soared into the heights of > > > Nirvikalpa Samadhi. Totapuri closed the doors and left him in that > > > state and to his utter amazement, he remained rigid and lost to the > > > outer world for three days. At the end, in disbelief Totapuri > > > reentered and slowly began to bring his disciple back into waking > > > consciousness by chanting a sacred mantra - Hari OM. He was astonished > > > that Ramakrishna had attained in one day what it had taken him forty > > > strenuous years to accomplish. > > > > > > Kali_Ma , ganesa16 <ganesa16@> wrote: > > > > > > > > I'm not sure abou Malcolm(?) McClean's (in his book > > > > " Devotion to the Goddess " ) estimation of Tantra and > > > > monism. I doubt that Tantrists think that Goddess Kali > > > > is not ultimately real, but only a symbol. I don't > > > > think that is how monism works. I believe that the > > > > idea is that deity is not outside of oneself, but the > > > > reverse is similar. We are not outside of deity > > > > either. Is our existence mere symbolic? > > > > > > > > Stephen > > > > > > > > --- colin777au <colinr@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > For people interested in recent books about Kali in > > > > > the English language. > > > > > > > > > > I've put together a website with reviews of books > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > > * Goddess Kali > > > > > * Kali-related Tantra > > > > > * Kali-like figures in dreams etc > > > > > > > > > > 10 detailed reviews of major works of the last two > > > > > decades... reviews which look at both the > > > > > value and the limitations of each book. > > > > > > > > > > I hope this site will be helpful to people who are > > > > > beginning to explore modern Kali-related > > > > > literature, and will also provide food for thought > > > > > to people already familiar with it. > > > > > > > > > > Please take a look and let me know what you think... > > > > > > > > > > http://home.pacific.net.au/~ferment/reviews.html > > > > > > > > > > Om Shantih > > > > > Colin Robinson > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ganesa16 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ____________________ > > ______________ > > > > Get your own web address. > > > > Have a HUGE year through Small Business. > > > > http://smallbusiness./domains/?p=BESTDEAL > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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