Gem Identification Lab's in India; Buyers Beware

[Guest guest]

Dear All, Gem Testing is a highly scientific & specialized job. Infact along-with a discerning eye, the Gemologist should be a individual of high integrity. As the stakes involved are indeed high at times. To my utter dismay I find that majority of Indian Gem Testing Labs, lack the state of the art equipment, trained personnel & off-course the integrity to give accurate reports. Jewellers / Dealers enjoying clout leave no stone unturned in getting fabricated reports. There is a leading Gem-Importer in Jaipur, who imported tons!!! of Mong-Su & Madagascar Glass-Filled Rubies in 2000 & cheated gullible buyers. The material in its top-quality range sold for 2000 U$ for a 5 carat ruby & believe me it was really good. In connivance with some key wholesellers the material was dumped in the Indian Retail Segment. By 2005 when Gem Labs came to

know about the treatment, there was material worth tens of crores in the trade. & The Indian Traders were in no mood to book losses. They dumped the material further to consumers, off-couse in connivance with gem-labs. Gem Labs in India, do not have a mandatory disclosure of Heat Treatment, unless otherwise specified. So if Any Jeweller or Gem- Retailer shows you a certificate of say Sapphire Stone class, it will mention, "Natural Sapphire", but this does not constitute that the sapphire is unheated. Indian Sites which deal in Jyotish Gems & have displayed the certificate of the gem being sold, check on the certificate, it only mentions "Natural Sapphire", with no comment as to whether it is heated or unheated. Most of the Labs buckle when you insist on Heat Treatment Determination, the gemologist will first say its'

impossible to make out. If you insist further he will take you to a corner & tell you that, he shall tell you orally but would not write it on the certificate. Further he shall elaborate that 99% sapphires are heated and /or treated, so it is no big deal whether the one you have brought is heated or not. & Do you know why he is telling you this. Because otherwise the Jeweller his Mai-Bap would be displeased. If there is a gem-lab in Asia which can truly be relied upon for the high caliber of it's Gemologist, State of the Art Equipment & High Standards of its Integrity, it is AIGS, www.aigsthailand.com. So my dear forum members, if you are investing a sizeable chunk of your hard earned money in procuring

Jyotish-Quality Gems, its advisable to get the gem tested from the best in business. Other leading Gem-Labs in Asia; Tokyo Gem Laboratory, Bangkok & The Gems and Jewelry Institute of Thailand http://www.git.or.th/eng/eng_index.htm In & for your best interest Your Friend Abhishek

Find a mall, hotel or ATM in any part of India.

[Guest guest]

Thank you for the information. But do you really think "ALL" labs in India are fraud? Isn't there ONE Indian who can be honest? Wow!! what a country of cheats!! 1.3 Billion of them.

 

And I was under the impression that Bangkok is the fraud centre in gem trade where if you buy at one shop and go back one hour later, after realising you have been cheated, the shop will have another name or would have disappeared altogether? Maybe it is a mistake? ALL jewellers in Bangkok are 100% honest with money back guarentee anytime any place? That also is a very interesting information.

 

So you are suggesting that Indians do not buy gems from India but must buy from Thailand?

From whom in Thailand please? Any recommendations?Menon

 

 

sacred-objects From: benarsibabuDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 07:24:55 +0100 Gem Identification Lab's in India; Buyers Beware

 

 

 

Dear All,

 

Gem Testing is a highly scientific & specialized job. Infact along-with a discerning eye, the Gemologist should be a individual of high integrity. As the stakes involved are indeed high at times.

 

To my utter dismay I find that majority of Indian Gem Testing Labs, lack the state of the art equipment, trained personnel & off-course the integrity to give accurate reports. Jewellers / Dealers enjoying clout leave no stone unturned in getting fabricated reports.

 

There is a leading Gem-Importer in Jaipur, who imported tons!!! of Mong-Su & Madagascar Glass-Filled Rubies in 2000 & cheated gullible buyers. The material in its top-quality range sold for 2000 U$ for a 5 carat ruby & believe me it was really good. In connivance with some key wholesellers the material was dumped in the Indian Retail Segment. By 2005 when Gem Labs came to know about the treatment, there was material worth tens of crores in the trade. & The Indian Traders were in no mood to book losses. They dumped the material further to consumers, off-couse in connivance with gem-labs.

 

Gem Labs in India, do not have a mandatory disclosure of Heat Treatment, unless otherwise specified. So if Any Jeweller or Gem- Retailer shows you a certificate of say Sapphire Stone class, it will mention, "Natural Sapphire", but this does not constitute that the sapphire is unheated.

 

Indian Sites which deal in Jyotish Gems & have displayed the certificate of the gem being sold, check on the certificate, it only mentions "Natural Sapphire", with no comment as to whether it is heated or unheated.

 

Most of the Labs buckle when you insist on Heat Treatment Determination, the gemologist will first say its' impossible to make out. If you insist further he will take you to a corner & tell you that, he shall tell you orally but would not write it on the certificate. Further he shall elaborate that 99% sapphires are heated and /or treated, so it is no big deal whether the one you have brought is heated or not. & Do you know why he is telling you this. Because otherwise the Jeweller his Mai-Bap would be displeased.

 

If there is a gem-lab in Asia which can truly be relied upon for the high caliber of it's Gemologist, State of the Art Equipment & High Standards of its Integrity, it is AIGS, www.aigsthailand.com.

 

So my dear forum members, if you are investing a sizeable chunk of your hard earned money in procuring Jyotish-Quality Gems, its advisable to get the gem tested from the best in business.

 

Other leading Gem-Labs in Asia;

 

Tokyo Gem Laboratory, Bangkok &

The Gems and Jewelry Institute of Thailand http://www.git.or.th/eng/eng_index.htm

 

 

In & for your best interest

 

Your Friend

Abhishek

 

 

 

 

 

Find a mall, hotel or ATM in any part of India. Call friends with PC-to-PC calling -- FREE Try it now!

[Guest guest]

I don't think this was a condemnation of all gem labs in India. Just a warning

about trusting the independant labs. Labs associated with Institutions like

Universities are the best choice.

 

As far as the question of cheats in India, all I can say is India is the only

country where we cannot send our products, because Indian customs officers are

about 99.9% cheats. We have tried to send but have been cheated every time. If

you can find an honest Indian custom officer they should make him Jagad Guru of

Bharat.

 

Again, 95% of Lakshmi Shank dealers in India are cheats fraudulently selling

Lighting Whelk shells (fraud). So what to speak of gems...

 

In Bangkok you only get cheated if you visit " tourist traps " . Bangkok is a much

better source of fine gems than anywhere in India. The best lab here is

Gemological Institute of Thailand (GIT) part of the University here, 2nd best is

AIGS (also a school).

 

But I have no doubt that Sri Menon is an honest man. And many other Indian's I

have known as well. So the Issue with labs is to go with the recognized labs

only unless you are sure of your supplier.

 

Best wishes,

Richard

 

sacred-objects , Kochu Menon <kochu1 wrote:

>

>

> Thank you for the information. But do you really think " ALL " labs in India are

fraud? Isn't

there ONE Indian who can be honest? Wow!! what a country of cheats!! 1.3 Billion

of them.

>

> And I was under the impression that Bangkok is the fraud centre in gem trade

where if

you buy at one shop and go back one hour later, after realising you have been

cheated,

the shop will have another name or would have disappeared altogether? Maybe it

is a

mistake? ALL jewellers in Bangkok are 100% honest with money back guarentee

anytime

any place? That also is a very interesting information.

>

> So you are suggesting that Indians do not buy gems from India but must buy

from

Thailand?

> From whom in Thailand please? Any recommendations?Menon

>

>

> sacred-objects: benarsibabu: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 07:24:55

+0100Subject:

Gem Identification Lab's in India; Buyers Beware

>

>

>

>

>

> Dear All,

>

> Gem Testing is a highly scientific & specialized job. Infact along-with a

discerning eye,

the Gemologist should be a individual of high integrity. As the stakes involved

are indeed

high at times.

>

> To my utter dismay I find that majority of Indian Gem Testing Labs, lack the

state of the

art equipment, trained personnel & off-course the integrity to give accurate

reports.

Jewellers / Dealers enjoying clout leave no stone unturned in getting fabricated

reports.

>

> There is a leading Gem-Importer in Jaipur, who imported tons!!! of Mong-Su &

Madagascar Glass-Filled Rubies in 2000 & cheated gullible buyers. The material

in its top-

quality range sold for 2000 U$ for a 5 carat ruby & believe me it was really

good. In

connivance with some key wholesellers the material was dumped in the Indian

Retail

Segment. By 2005 when Gem Labs came to know about the treatment, there was

material

worth tens of crores in the trade. & The Indian Traders were in no mood to book

losses.

They dumped the material further to consumers, off-couse in connivance with

gem-labs.

>

> Gem Labs in India, do not have a mandatory disclosure of Heat Treatment,

unless

otherwise specified. So if Any Jeweller or Gem- Retailer shows you a certificate

of say

Sapphire Stone class, it will mention, " Natural Sapphire " , but this does not

constitute that

the sapphire is unheated.

>

> Indian Sites which deal in Jyotish Gems & have displayed the certificate of

the gem being

sold, check on the certificate, it only mentions " Natural Sapphire " , with no

comment as to

whether it is heated or unheated.

>

> Most of the Labs buckle when you insist on Heat Treatment Determination, the

gemologist will first say its' impossible to make out. If you insist further he

will take you to

a corner & tell you that, he shall tell you orally but would not write it on the

certificate.

Further he shall elaborate that 99% sapphires are heated and /or treated, so it

is no big

deal whether the one you have brought is heated or not. & Do you know why he is

telling

you this. Because otherwise the Jeweller his Mai-Bap would be displeased.

>

> If there is a gem-lab in Asia which can truly be relied upon for the high

caliber of it's

Gemologist, State of the Art Equipment & High Standards of its Integrity, it is

AIGS,

www.aigsthailand.com.

>

> So my dear forum members, if you are investing a sizeable chunk of your hard

earned

money in procuring Jyotish-Quality Gems, its advisable to get the gem tested

from the

best in business.

>

> Other leading Gem-Labs in Asia;

>

> Tokyo Gem Laboratory, Bangkok &

> The Gems and Jewelry Institute of Thailand

http://www.git.or.th/eng/eng_index.htm

>

>

> In & for your best interest

>

> Your Friend

> Abhishek

Find a mall, hotel or ATM in any part of India.

>

_______________

> Call friends with PC-to-PC calling -- FREE

> http://get.live.com/messenger/overview

>

[Guest guest]

Hello, I have been in and out of gems for over 10 years now and I too have some very nasty experiences. Custom Officers in India are one bunch of people who dont fear the effects of accumalating disastrous Karma. Now and then they have troubled me every time I am importing gems. Recently they sealed my consignment of nigerian emeralds. Charged me 25% duty even after I bribed them lest they would have disappeared. Gem traders in India. I honestly cant decide if they are more dishonest or greedy. And gem labs....I wouldnt trust GIA since even they have been in cotroversies regarding grading of diamonds. I had a nice reddish gomedh of around 380 carats in sqare gut. The inclusions were clearly yelling that it was a gomedh. Yet the esteemed lab in Bombay gave me a certificate of a Pyrope. Disaster! I did not get a good price for it since the buyer insisted on a certificate. However there are traders who have been in business for generations. Time and again I have found them trustworthy. They know trust means continued business. Bangkok has been notorious for fushing berylium infused stones in the market. Some elements have made huge money on these in India selling gullible folks stones for thousands of dollars when they are worth a few pennies. In Gujarati we have a saying that Crows are black around the world (kagda badhe kala). If you have money to spend wether in India, Bangkok or Europe I would recommend caution. Buy gems only from well known shops or buy it from people you know personally. Its very hard to make money while one triffle and you have lost a fortune. I dont think that one must generalise on Gem Dealers in India or overseas. In my opinion discretion is also a better part of bargain. Best Regards, Jay Richard Shaw-Brown <rsbj66 wrote: I don't think this was a condemnation of all gem labs in India. Just a warning about trusting the independant labs. Labs associated with Institutions like Universities are the best choice.As far as the question of cheats in India, all I can say is India is the only country where we cannot send our products, because Indian customs officers are about 99.9% cheats. We have tried to send but have been cheated every time. If you can find an honest Indian custom officer they

should make him Jagad Guru of Bharat.Again, 95% of Lakshmi Shank dealers in India are cheats fraudulently selling Lighting Whelk shells (fraud). So what to speak of gems...In Bangkok you only get cheated if you visit "tourist traps". Bangkok is a much better source of fine gems than anywhere in India. The best lab here is Gemological Institute of Thailand (GIT) part of the University here, 2nd best is AIGS (also a school).But I have no doubt that Sri Menon is an honest man. And many other Indian's I have known as well. So the Issue with labs is to go with the recognized labs only unless you are sure of your supplier.Best wishes,Richardsacred-objects , Kochu Menon <kochu1 wrote:>> > Thank you for the information. But do you really think "ALL" labs in India are fraud? Isn't there ONE Indian who can be honest?

Wow!! what a country of cheats!! 1.3 Billion of them.> > And I was under the impression that Bangkok is the fraud centre in gem trade where if you buy at one shop and go back one hour later, after realising you have been cheated, the shop will have another name or would have disappeared altogether? Maybe it is a mistake? ALL jewellers in Bangkok are 100% honest with money back guarentee anytime any place? That also is a very interesting information.> > So you are suggesting that Indians do not buy gems from India but must buy from Thailand?> From whom in Thailand please? Any recommendations?Menon> > > sacred-objects: benarsibabu: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 07:24:55 +0100 Gem Identification Lab's in India; Buyers Beware> > > > > > Dear All,> > Gem Testing is a highly scientific & specialized

job. Infact along-with a discerning eye, the Gemologist should be a individual of high integrity. As the stakes involved are indeed high at times.> > To my utter dismay I find that majority of Indian Gem Testing Labs, lack the state of the art equipment, trained personnel & off-course the integrity to give accurate reports. Jewellers / Dealers enjoying clout leave no stone unturned in getting fabricated reports. > > There is a leading Gem-Importer in Jaipur, who imported tons!!! of Mong-Su & Madagascar Glass-Filled Rubies in 2000 & cheated gullible buyers. The material in its top-quality range sold for 2000 U$ for a 5 carat ruby & believe me it was really good. In connivance with some key wholesellers the material was dumped in the Indian Retail Segment. By 2005 when Gem Labs came to know about the treatment, there was material worth tens of crores in the trade. & The Indian Traders were in

no mood to book losses. They dumped the material further to consumers, off-couse in connivance with gem-labs.> > Gem Labs in India, do not have a mandatory disclosure of Heat Treatment, unless otherwise specified. So if Any Jeweller or Gem- Retailer shows you a certificate of say Sapphire Stone class, it will mention, "Natural Sapphire", but this does not constitute that the sapphire is unheated. > > Indian Sites which deal in Jyotish Gems & have displayed the certificate of the gem being sold, check on the certificate, it only mentions "Natural Sapphire", with no comment as to whether it is heated or unheated. > > Most of the Labs buckle when you insist on Heat Treatment Determination, the gemologist will first say its' impossible to make out. If you insist further he will take you to a corner & tell you that, he shall tell you orally but would not write it on the certificate. Further he

shall elaborate that 99% sapphires are heated and /or treated, so it is no big deal whether the one you have brought is heated or not. & Do you know why he is telling you this. Because otherwise the Jeweller his Mai-Bap would be displeased.> > If there is a gem-lab in Asia which can truly be relied upon for the high caliber of it's Gemologist, State of the Art Equipment & High Standards of its Integrity, it is AIGS, www.aigsthailand.com. > > So my dear forum members, if you are investing a sizeable chunk of your hard earned money in procuring Jyotish-Quality Gems, its advisable to get the gem tested from the best in business.> > Other leading Gem-Labs in Asia;> > Tokyo Gem Laboratory, Bangkok & > The Gems and Jewelry Institute of Thailand http://www.git.or.th/eng/eng_index.htm> > > In

& for your best interest> > Your Friend> Abhishek> > > > > > > Find a mall, hotel or ATM in any part of India. > > > > > > > > ________> Call friends with PC-to-PC calling -- FREE> http://get.live.com/messenger/overview> Do You ?

[Guest guest]

Haha... what can you expect. In Sanskrit the word " custom " (kastam) means

trouble. The simple fact is that I cannot send products to India. It is too bad.

It's like India is surrounded by a " wall " of troublesome customs officials and

India's people are isolated or insulated. Too bad. It is not that way in most

other countries (except Bangladesh and Pakistan, which are originally parts of

India too).

 

sacred-objects , Jay Munshi <jaymunshi wrote:

>

>

>

> Hello,

>

> I have been in and out of gems for over 10 years now and I too have some

very nasty

experiences.

>

> Custom Officers in India are one bunch of people who dont fear the effects

of

accumalating disastrous Karma. Now and then they have troubled me every time I

am

importing gems. Recently they sealed my consignment of nigerian emeralds.

Charged me

25% duty even after I bribed them lest they would have disappeared.

>

> Gem traders in India. I honestly cant decide if they are more dishonest or

greedy. And

gem labs....I wouldnt trust GIA since even they have been in cotroversies

regarding

grading of diamonds. I had a nice reddish gomedh of around 380 carats in sqare

gut. The

inclusions were clearly yelling that it was a gomedh. Yet the esteemed lab in

Bombay gave

me a certificate of a Pyrope. Disaster! I did not get a good price for it since

the buyer

insisted on a certificate.

>

> However there are traders who have been in business for generations. Time

and again I

have found them trustworthy. They know trust means continued business. Bangkok

has

been notorious for fushing berylium infused stones in the market. Some elements

have

made huge money on these in India selling gullible folks stones for thousands of

dollars

when they are worth a few pennies.

>

> In Gujarati we have a saying that Crows are black around the world (kagda

badhe kala).

If you have money to spend wether in India, Bangkok or Europe I would recommend

caution. Buy gems only from well known shops or buy it from people you know

personally.

Its very hard to make money while one triffle and you have lost a fortune. I

dont think that

one must generalise on Gem Dealers in India or overseas.

>

> In my opinion discretion is also a better part of bargain.

>

> Best Regards,

>

> Jay

>

>

> Richard Shaw-Brown <rsbj66 wrote:

> I don't think this was a condemnation of all gem labs in India. Just

a warning

about trusting the independant labs. Labs associated with Institutions like

Universities are

the best choice.

>

> As far as the question of cheats in India, all I can say is India is the only

country where

we cannot send our products, because Indian customs officers are about 99.9%

cheats. We

have tried to send but have been cheated every time. If you can find an honest

Indian

custom officer they should make him Jagad Guru of Bharat.

>

> Again, 95% of Lakshmi Shank dealers in India are cheats fraudulently selling

Lighting

Whelk shells (fraud). So what to speak of gems...

>

> In Bangkok you only get cheated if you visit " tourist traps " . Bangkok is a

much better

source of fine gems than anywhere in India. The best lab here is Gemological

Institute of

Thailand (GIT) part of the University here, 2nd best is AIGS (also a school).

>

> But I have no doubt that Sri Menon is an honest man. And many other Indian's I

have

known as well. So the Issue with labs is to go with the recognized labs only

unless you are

sure of your supplier.

>

> Best wishes,

> Richard

>

> sacred-objects , Kochu Menon <kochu1@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Thank you for the information. But do you really think " ALL " labs in India

are fraud?

Isn't

> there ONE Indian who can be honest? Wow!! what a country of cheats!! 1.3

Billion of

them.

> >

> > And I was under the impression that Bangkok is the fraud centre in gem trade

where if

> you buy at one shop and go back one hour later, after realising you have been

cheated,

> the shop will have another name or would have disappeared altogether? Maybe it

is a

> mistake? ALL jewellers in Bangkok are 100% honest with money back guarentee

anytime

> any place? That also is a very interesting information.

> >

> > So you are suggesting that Indians do not buy gems from India but must buy

from

> Thailand?

> > From whom in Thailand please? Any recommendations?Menon

> >

> >

> > sacred-objects@: benarsibabu@: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 07:24:55 +0100Subject:

> Gem Identification Lab's in India; Buyers Beware

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Dear All,

> >

> > Gem Testing is a highly scientific & specialized job. Infact along-with a

discerning

eye,

> the Gemologist should be a individual of high integrity. As the stakes

involved are

indeed

> high at times.

> >

> > To my utter dismay I find that majority of Indian Gem Testing Labs, lack the

state of

the

> art equipment, trained personnel & off-course the integrity to give accurate

reports.

> Jewellers / Dealers enjoying clout leave no stone unturned in getting

fabricated reports.

> >

> > There is a leading Gem-Importer in Jaipur, who imported tons!!! of Mong-Su &

> Madagascar Glass-Filled Rubies in 2000 & cheated gullible buyers. The material

in its

top-

> quality range sold for 2000 U$ for a 5 carat ruby & believe me it was really

good. In

> connivance with some key wholesellers the material was dumped in the Indian

Retail

> Segment. By 2005 when Gem Labs came to know about the treatment, there was

material

> worth tens of crores in the trade. & The Indian Traders were in no mood to

book losses.

> They dumped the material further to consumers, off-couse in connivance with

gem-

labs.

> >

> > Gem Labs in India, do not have a mandatory disclosure of Heat Treatment,

unless

> otherwise specified. So if Any Jeweller or Gem- Retailer shows you a

certificate of say

> Sapphire Stone class, it will mention, " Natural Sapphire " , but this does not

constitute

that

> the sapphire is unheated.

> >

> > Indian Sites which deal in Jyotish Gems & have displayed the certificate of

the gem

being

> sold, check on the certificate, it only mentions " Natural Sapphire " , with no

comment as

to

> whether it is heated or unheated.

> >

> > Most of the Labs buckle when you insist on Heat Treatment Determination, the

> gemologist will first say its' impossible to make out. If you insist further

he will take you

to

> a corner & tell you that, he shall tell you orally but would not write it on

the certificate.

> Further he shall elaborate that 99% sapphires are heated and /or treated, so

it is no big

> deal whether the one you have brought is heated or not. & Do you know why he

is

telling

> you this. Because otherwise the Jeweller his Mai-Bap would be displeased.

> >

> > If there is a gem-lab in Asia which can truly be relied upon for the high

caliber of it's

> Gemologist, State of the Art Equipment & High Standards of its Integrity, it

is AIGS,

> www.aigsthailand.com.

> >

> > So my dear forum members, if you are investing a sizeable chunk of your hard

earned

> money in procuring Jyotish-Quality Gems, its advisable to get the gem tested

from the

> best in business.

> >

> > Other leading Gem-Labs in Asia;

> >

> > Tokyo Gem Laboratory, Bangkok &

> > The Gems and Jewelry Institute of Thailand

http://www.git.or.th/eng/eng_index.htm

> >

> >

> > In & for your best interest

> >

> > Your Friend

> > Abhishek

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Find a mall, hotel or ATM in any part of India.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________

> > Call friends with PC-to-PC calling -- FREE

> > http://get.live.com/messenger/overview

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Mr. Shaw-Brown:

I am not a gem dealer but a lawyer. It is true I collect gems. I am not a gem expert as you people are.

I do not think a reading of the mail to which I replied deals with "independent" gem labs. The word "independent" is conspicuous by its absene in the mail. The poster condemned ALL gem labs in India wholesale. Thats a bit too much. Has this friend visited all labs?

Regarding customs officials, my experience has been (I travel in and out all the time) that they no longer bother about small things. Maybe it is because I use the official/diplomatic channel.

I have seen cheat gem dealers in nooyark and landan as well. I have seen crooked customs officials in these places also.

I have had experiences in Bangkok also. But, maybe because I am a small fish, I have escaped unscathed till now.

As Mr. Jaymunshi said, there are bad people and good people everywhere. I have heard bad stories about so called "honest people" touted as such also. I hear stories, I evaluate and then I decide. Simple? n'est ce pas?

Oh!! I forgot to ask where the Jaipur dealer imported stones from.

I am not sure, I read somewhere that AIGS was not willing to certify Beryllium heat treated Saphires as Beryllium treated on some spacious arguments. Was it because of any mai-bap or was it scientific honesty? I wonder. But then I am not an authority.

 

Lets leave it at that.

Menon

 

 

sacred-objects From: jaymunshiDate: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:02:55 -0700Re: Re: Gem Identification Lab's in India; Buyers Beware

 

 

 

Hello,

 

I have been in and out of gems for over 10 years now and I too have some very nasty experiences.

 

Custom Officers in India are one bunch of people who dont fear the effects of accumalating disastrous Karma. Now and then they have troubled me every time I am importing gems. Recently they sealed my consignment of nigerian emeralds. Charged me 25% duty even after I bribed them lest they would have disappeared.

 

Gem traders in India. I honestly cant decide if they are more dishonest or greedy. And gem labs....I wouldnt trust GIA since even they have been in cotroversies regarding grading of diamonds. I had a nice reddish gomedh of around 380 carats in sqare gut. The inclusions were clearly yelling that it was a gomedh. Yet the esteemed lab in Bombay gave me a certificate of a Pyrope. Disaster! I did not get a good price for it since the buyer insisted on a certificate.

 

However there are traders who have been in business for generations. Time and again I have found them trustworthy. They know trust means continued business. Bangkok has been notorious for fushing berylium infused stones in the market. Some elements have made huge money on these in India selling gullible folks stones for thousands of dollars when they are worth a few pennies.

In Gujarati we have a saying that Crows are black around the world (kagda badhe kala). If you have money to spend wether in India, Bangkok or Europe I would recommend caution. Buy gems only from well known shops or buy it from people you know personally. Its very hard to make money while one triffle and you have lost a fortune. I dont think that one must generalise on Gem Dealers in India or overseas.

 

In my opinion discretion is also a better part of bargain.

 

Best Regards,

 

Jay

Richard Shaw-Brown <rsbj66 > wrote:

 

 

I don't think this was a condemnation of all gem labs in India. Just a warning about trusting the independant labs. Labs associated with Institutions like Universities are the best choice.As far as the question of cheats in India, all I can say is India is the only country where we cannot send our products, because Indian customs officers are about 99.9% cheats. We have tried to send but have been cheated every time. If you can find an honest Indian custom officer they should make him Jagad Guru of Bharat.Again, 95% of Lakshmi Shank dealers in India are cheats fraudulently selling Lighting Whelk shells (fraud). So what to speak of gems...In Bangkok you only get cheated if you visit "tourist traps". Bangkok is a much better source of fine gems than anywhere in India. The best lab here is Gemological Institute of Thailand (GIT) part of the University here, 2nd best is AIGS (also a school).But I have no doubt that Sri Menon is an honest man. And many other Indian's I have known as well. So the Issue with labs is to go with the recognized labs only unless you are sure of your supplier.Best wishes,Richardsacred-objects , Kochu Menon <kochu1 wrote:>> > Thank you for the information. But do you really think "ALL" labs in India are fraud? Isn't there ONE Indian who can be honest? Wow!! what a country of cheats!! 1.3 Billion of them.> > And I was under the impression that Bangkok is the fraud centre in gem trade where if you buy at one shop and go back one hour later, after realising you have been cheated, the shop will have another name or would have disappeared altogether? Maybe it is a mistake? ALL jewellers in Bangkok are 100% honest with money back guarentee anytime any place? That also is a very interesting information.> > So you are suggesting that Indians do not buy gems from India but must buy from Thailand?> From whom in Thailand please? Any recommendations?Menon> > > sacred-objects: benarsibabu: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 07:24:55 +0100 Gem Identification Lab's in India; Buyers Beware> > > > > > Dear All,> > Gem Testing is a highly scientific & specialized job. Infact along-with a discerning eye, the Gemologist should be a individual of high integrity. As the stakes involved are indeed high at times.> > To my utter dismay I find that majority of Indian Gem Testing Labs, lack the state of the art equipment, trained personnel & off-course the integrity to give accurate reports. Jewellers / Dealers enjoying clout leave no stone unturned in getting fabricated reports. > > There is a leading Gem-Importer in Jaipur, who imported tons!!! of Mong-Su & Madagascar Glass-Filled Rubies in 2000 & cheated gullible buyers. The material in its top-quality range sold for 2000 U$ for a 5 carat ruby & believe me it was really good. In connivance with some key wholesellers the material was dumped in the Indian Retail Segment. By 2005 when Gem Labs came to know about the treatment, there was material worth tens of crores in the trade. & The Indian Traders were in no mood to book losses. They dumped the material further to consumers, off-couse in connivance with gem-labs.> > Gem Labs in India, do not have a mandatory disclosure of Heat Treatment, unless otherwise specified. So if Any Jeweller or Gem- Retailer shows you a certificate of say Sapphire Stone class, it will mention, "Natural Sapphire", but this does not constitute that the sapphire is unheated. > > Indian Sites which deal in Jyotish Gems & have displayed the certificate of the gem being sold, check on the certificate, it only mentions "Natural Sapphire", with no comment as to whether it is heated or unheated. > > Most of the Labs buckle when you insist on Heat Treatment Determination, the gemologist will first say its' impossible to make out. If you insist further he will take you to a corner & tell you that, he shall tell you orally but would not write it on the certificate. Further he shall elaborate that 99% sapphires are heated and /or treated, so it is no big deal whether the one you have brought is heated or not. & Do you know why he is telling you this. Because otherwise the Jeweller his Mai-Bap would be displeased.> > If there is a gem-lab in Asia which can truly be relied upon for the high caliber of it's Gemologist, State of the Art Equipment & High Standards of its Integrity, it is AIGS, www.aigsthailand.com. > > So my dear forum members, if you are investing a sizeable chunk of your hard earned money in procuring Jyotish-Quality Gems, its advisable to get the gem tested from the best in business.> > Other leading Gem-Labs in Asia;> > Tokyo Gem Laboratory, Bangkok & > The Gems and Jewelry Institute of Thailand http://www.git.or.th/eng/eng_index.htm> > > In & for your best interest> > Your Friend> Abhishek> > > > > > > Find a mall, hotel or ATM in any part of India. > > > > > > > > ________> Call friends with PC-to-PC calling -- FREE> http://get.live.com/messenger/overview>

Windows Live Spaces is here! It’s easy to create your own personal Web site. Check it out!

[Guest guest]

Dear Sri Menon,

 

Namaste! As you are a lawyer I reverted to the original message. It does not

state that ALL Indian labs are condemned. The exact wording was, " I find that

majority of Indian Gem Testing Labs, lack the state of the art equipment,

trained personnel & off-course the integrity to give accurate reports. " --- And

I agree. Y/s, Richard

 

sacred-objects , Kochu Menon <kochu1 wrote:

>

>

> Dear Mr. Shaw-Brown:

> I am not a gem dealer but a lawyer. It is true I collect gems. I am not a gem

expert as

you people are.

> I do not think a reading of the mail to which I replied deals with

" independent " gem labs.

The word " independent " is conspicuous by its absene in the mail. The poster

condemned

ALL gem labs in India wholesale. Thats a bit too much. Has this friend visited

all labs?

> Regarding customs officials, my experience has been (I travel in and out all

the time)

that they no longer bother about small things. Maybe it is because I use the

official/

diplomatic channel.

> I have seen cheat gem dealers in nooyark and landan as well. I have seen

crooked

customs officials in these places also.

> I have had experiences in Bangkok also. But, maybe because I am a small fish,

I have

escaped unscathed till now.

> As Mr. Jaymunshi said, there are bad people and good people everywhere. I have

heard

bad stories about so called " honest people " touted as such also. I hear stories,

I evaluate

and then I decide. Simple? n'est ce pas?

> Oh!! I forgot to ask where the Jaipur dealer imported stones from.

> I am not sure, I read somewhere that AIGS was not willing to certify Beryllium

heat

treated Saphires as Beryllium treated on some spacious arguments. Was it because

of any

mai-bap or was it scientific honesty? I wonder. But then I am not an authority.

>

> Lets leave it at that.

> Menon

>

>

> sacred-objects: jaymunshi: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:02:55 -0700Subject:

Re:

Re: Gem Identification Lab's in India; Buyers Beware

>

>

>

>

>

> Hello,

>

> I have been in and out of gems for over 10 years now and I too have some very

nasty

experiences.

>

> Custom Officers in India are one bunch of people who dont fear the effects of

accumalating disastrous Karma. Now and then they have troubled me every time I

am

importing gems. Recently they sealed my consignment of nigerian emeralds.

Charged me

25% duty even after I bribed them lest they would have disappeared.

>

> Gem traders in India. I honestly cant decide if they are more dishonest or

greedy. And

gem labs....I wouldnt trust GIA since even they have been in cotroversies

regarding

grading of diamonds. I had a nice reddish gomedh of around 380 carats in sqare

gut. The

inclusions were clearly yelling that it was a gomedh. Yet the esteemed lab in

Bombay gave

me a certificate of a Pyrope. Disaster! I did not get a good price for it since

the buyer

insisted on a certificate.

>

> However there are traders who have been in business for generations. Time and

again I

have found them trustworthy. They know trust means continued business. Bangkok

has

been notorious for fushing berylium infused stones in the market. Some elements

have

made huge money on these in India selling gullible folks stones for thousands of

dollars

when they are worth a few pennies.

> In Gujarati we have a saying that Crows are black around the world (kagda

badhe kala).

If you have money to spend wether in India, Bangkok or Europe I would recommend

caution. Buy gems only from well known shops or buy it from people you know

personally.

Its very hard to make money while one triffle and you have lost a fortune. I

dont think that

one must generalise on Gem Dealers in India or overseas.

>

> In my opinion discretion is also a better part of bargain.

>

> Best Regards,

>

> Jay

> Richard Shaw-Brown <rsbj66 wrote:

>

>

> I don't think this was a condemnation of all gem labs in India. Just a warning

about

trusting the independant labs. Labs associated with Institutions like

Universities are the

best choice.As far as the question of cheats in India, all I can say is India is

the only

country where we cannot send our products, because Indian customs officers are

about

99.9% cheats. We have tried to send but have been cheated every time. If you can

find an

honest Indian custom officer they should make him Jagad Guru of Bharat.Again,

95% of

Lakshmi Shank dealers in India are cheats fraudulently selling Lighting Whelk

shells

(fraud). So what to speak of gems...In Bangkok you only get cheated if you visit

" tourist

traps " . Bangkok is a much better source of fine gems than anywhere in India. The

best lab

here is Gemological Institute of Thailand (GIT) part of the University here, 2nd

best is AIGS

(also a school).But I have no doubt that Sri Menon is an honest man. And many

other

Indian's I have known as well. So the Issue with labs is to go with the

recognized labs only

unless you are sure of your supplier.Best wishes,Richardsacred-

objects , Kochu Menon <kochu1@> wrote:>> > Thank you for the

information. But do you really think " ALL " labs in India are fraud? Isn't there

ONE Indian

who can be honest? Wow!! what a country of cheats!! 1.3 Billion of them.> > And

I was

under the impression that Bangkok is the fraud centre in gem trade where if you

buy at

one shop and go back one hour later, after realising you have been cheated, the

shop will

have another name or would have disappeared altogether? Maybe it is a mistake?

ALL

jewellers in Bangkok are 100% honest with money back guarentee anytime any

place? That

also is a very interesting information.> > So you are suggesting that Indians do

not buy

gems from India but must buy from Thailand?> From whom in Thailand please? Any

recommendations?Menon> > > sacred-objects@: benarsibabu@: Mon, 22 Oct 2007

07:24:55 +0100 Gem Identification Lab's in India;

Buyers

Beware> > > > > > Dear All,> > Gem Testing is a highly scientific & specialized

job.

Infact along-with a discerning eye, the Gemologist should be a individual of

high integrity.

As the stakes involved are indeed high at times.> > To my utter dismay I find

that

majority of Indian Gem Testing Labs, lack the state of the art equipment,

trained personnel

& off-course the integrity to give accurate reports. Jewellers / Dealers

enjoying clout leave

no stone unturned in getting fabricated reports. > > There is a leading

Gem-Importer in

Jaipur, who imported tons!!! of Mong-Su & Madagascar Glass-Filled Rubies in 2000

&

cheated gullible buyers. The material in its top-quality range sold for 2000 U$

for a 5

carat ruby & believe me it was really good. In connivance with some key

wholesellers the

material was dumped in the Indian Retail Segment. By 2005 when Gem Labs came to

know

about the treatment, there was material worth tens of crores in the trade. & The

Indian

Traders were in no mood to book losses. They dumped the material further to

consumers,

off-couse in connivance with gem-labs.> > Gem Labs in India, do not have a

mandatory

disclosure of Heat Treatment, unless otherwise specified. So if Any Jeweller or

Gem-

Retailer shows you a certificate of say Sapphire Stone class, it will mention,

" Natural

Sapphire " , but this does not constitute that the sapphire is unheated. > >

Indian Sites

which deal in Jyotish Gems & have displayed the certificate of the gem being

sold, check

on the certificate, it only mentions " Natural Sapphire " , with no comment as to

whether it is

heated or unheated. > > Most of the Labs buckle when you insist on Heat

Treatment

Determination, the gemologist will first say its' impossible to make out. If you

insist

further he will take you to a corner & tell you that, he shall tell you orally

but would not

write it on the certificate. Further he shall elaborate that 99% sapphires are

heated and /or

treated, so it is no big deal whether the one you have brought is heated or not.

& Do you

know why he is telling you this. Because otherwise the Jeweller his Mai-Bap

would be

displeased.> > If there is a gem-lab in Asia which can truly be relied upon for

the high

caliber of it's Gemologist, State of the Art Equipment & High Standards of its

Integrity, it is

AIGS, www.aigsthailand.com. > > So my dear forum members, if you are investing a

sizeable chunk of your hard earned money in procuring Jyotish-Quality Gems, its

advisable

to get the gem tested from the best in business.> > Other leading Gem-Labs in

Asia;> >

Tokyo Gem Laboratory, Bangkok & > The Gems and Jewelry Institute of Thailand

http://

www.git.or.th/eng/eng_index.htm> > > In & for your best interest> > Your Friend>

Abhishek> > > > > > > Find a mall, hotel or ATM in any part of India. Click

here. > > > >

> > > > ________> Call friends

with

PC-to-PC calling -- FREE> http://get.live.com/messenger/overview>

> Tired of spam?

Mail has the best spam protection around

_______________

> Windows Live Spaces is here! It's easy to create your own personal Web site.

> http://spaces.live.com/?mkt=en-in

>

[Guest guest]

Kashtam ati Kashtam! This world wont allow an easy honest deal. I was the one who had requested the seller to quote the correct value on the parcel and he had warned me repeatedly. Not the first time that my honesty bug hit me. But generally goods arrive through Fedex and things are much smoother. This time the gentleman sent it by EMS which in India is linked with Indian Postal Department. To my regret and my disappointment the current infrastructure will trouble the honest. It took me 6 months to get my stuff after bribing and paying double the duty. Dishonesty, loot prevails every where in this country leaving a few urban centres. I am in Bangalore and I am yet to find a rickshaw who will charge me a tariff. Just last week Imy car was out for service and I was heading back home when the rickshaw charged me triple the fare and I complained about it and the rickshaw

guy told me "Sir, You are making too much money here..part with some" Cops....lets talk about that. My driver slept on the wheel once and he rammed in the divider and my car sitting on top of it. My car is rather a heavy vehicle and it was not possible for the two of us to move. I called the cops in 100 emergency service. No one came after an hour. I called again and they were telling me I was lying and had never called. I lost my temper and yelled at them. Cops arrived in 5 minutes charged my driver for rash driving and he paid a Rs. 300 fine. And they told me "Move your car! its late night and if some one bangs in you will have more repairs to do" Can you beleive it??? I had to like a beggar mock the passing cars till a few genleman and few locals from the slums came with some bamboos tucked it under the car and moved off the divider. I am not sure if even God can help an honest man today. Best Regards, JayRichard Shaw-Brown <rsbj66 wrote: Haha... what can you expect. In Sanskrit the word "custom" (kastam) means trouble. The simple fact is that I cannot send products to India. It is too bad. It's like India is surrounded by a "wall" of troublesome customs officials and India's people are isolated or insulated. Too bad. It is not that way in most other countries (except Bangladesh and Pakistan, which are originally parts of India too). sacred-objects , Jay Munshi <jaymunshi wrote:>> > > Hello,> > I have been in and out of gems for over 10 years now and I too have some very nasty experiences.> > Custom Officers in India are one bunch of people who dont fear the effects of accumalating disastrous Karma. Now and then they have troubled me every time I am importing gems. Recently they sealed my consignment of nigerian emeralds. Charged me 25% duty even after I bribed them lest they would have disappeared. > > Gem traders in India. I honestly cant decide if they are more dishonest or greedy. And gem labs....I wouldnt trust GIA since even they have been in cotroversies regarding grading of diamonds. I had a nice reddish gomedh of around 380 carats in sqare gut. The inclusions were clearly yelling that it was a gomedh. Yet

the esteemed lab in Bombay gave me a certificate of a Pyrope. Disaster! I did not get a good price for it since the buyer insisted on a certificate.> > However there are traders who have been in business for generations. Time and again I have found them trustworthy. They know trust means continued business. Bangkok has been notorious for fushing berylium infused stones in the market. Some elements have made huge money on these in India selling gullible folks stones for thousands of dollars when they are worth a few pennies. > > In Gujarati we have a saying that Crows are black around the world (kagda badhe kala). If you have money to spend wether in India, Bangkok or Europe I would recommend caution. Buy gems only from well known shops or buy it from people you know personally. Its very hard to make money while one triffle and you have lost a fortune. I dont think that one must generalise on Gem Dealers in

India or overseas.> > In my opinion discretion is also a better part of bargain.> > Best Regards,> > Jay> > > Richard Shaw-Brown <rsbj66 wrote:> I don't think this was a condemnation of all gem labs in India. Just a warning about trusting the independant labs. Labs associated with Institutions like Universities are the best choice.> > As far as the question of cheats in India, all I can say is India is the only country where we cannot send our products, because Indian customs officers are about 99.9% cheats. We have tried to send but have been cheated every time. If you can find an honest Indian custom officer they should make him Jagad Guru of Bharat.> > Again, 95% of Lakshmi Shank dealers in India are cheats fraudulently selling Lighting Whelk shells (fraud). So what to speak of gems...> > In Bangkok you only get cheated if

you visit "tourist traps". Bangkok is a much better source of fine gems than anywhere in India. The best lab here is Gemological Institute of Thailand (GIT) part of the University here, 2nd best is AIGS (also a school).> > But I have no doubt that Sri Menon is an honest man. And many other Indian's I have known as well. So the Issue with labs is to go with the recognized labs only unless you are sure of your supplier.> > Best wishes,> Richard> > sacred-objects , Kochu Menon <kochu1@> wrote:> >> > > > Thank you for the information. But do you really think "ALL" labs in India are fraud? Isn't > there ONE Indian who can be honest? Wow!! what a country of cheats!! 1.3 Billion of them.> > > > And I was under the impression that Bangkok is the fraud centre in

gem trade where if > you buy at one shop and go back one hour later, after realising you have been cheated, > the shop will have another name or would have disappeared altogether? Maybe it is a > mistake? ALL jewellers in Bangkok are 100% honest with money back guarentee anytime > any place? That also is a very interesting information.> > > > So you are suggesting that Indians do not buy gems from India but must buy from > Thailand?> > From whom in Thailand please? Any recommendations?Menon> > > > > > sacred-objects@: benarsibabu@: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 07:24:55 +0100> Gem Identification Lab's in India; Buyers Beware> > > > > > > > > > > > Dear All,> > > > Gem Testing is a highly scientific & specialized job. Infact along-with a discerning eye,

> the Gemologist should be a individual of high integrity. As the stakes involved are indeed > high at times.> > > > To my utter dismay I find that majority of Indian Gem Testing Labs, lack the state of the > art equipment, trained personnel & off-course the integrity to give accurate reports. > Jewellers / Dealers enjoying clout leave no stone unturned in getting fabricated reports. > > > > There is a leading Gem-Importer in Jaipur, who imported tons!!! of Mong-Su & > Madagascar Glass-Filled Rubies in 2000 & cheated gullible buyers. The material in its top-> quality range sold for 2000 U$ for a 5 carat ruby & believe me it was really good. In > connivance with some key wholesellers the material was dumped in the Indian Retail > Segment. By 2005 when Gem Labs came to know about the treatment, there was material > worth tens of crores in the

trade. & The Indian Traders were in no mood to book losses. > They dumped the material further to consumers, off-couse in connivance with gem-labs.> > > > Gem Labs in India, do not have a mandatory disclosure of Heat Treatment, unless > otherwise specified. So if Any Jeweller or Gem- Retailer shows you a certificate of say > Sapphire Stone class, it will mention, "Natural Sapphire", but this does not constitute that > the sapphire is unheated. > > > > Indian Sites which deal in Jyotish Gems & have displayed the certificate of the gem being > sold, check on the certificate, it only mentions "Natural Sapphire", with no comment as to > whether it is heated or unheated. > > > > Most of the Labs buckle when you insist on Heat Treatment Determination, the > gemologist will first say its' impossible to make out. If you insist further he will take

you to > a corner & tell you that, he shall tell you orally but would not write it on the certificate. > Further he shall elaborate that 99% sapphires are heated and /or treated, so it is no big > deal whether the one you have brought is heated or not. & Do you know why he is telling > you this. Because otherwise the Jeweller his Mai-Bap would be displeased.> > > > If there is a gem-lab in Asia which can truly be relied upon for the high caliber of it's > Gemologist, State of the Art Equipment & High Standards of its Integrity, it is AIGS, > www.aigsthailand.com. > > > > So my dear forum members, if you are investing a sizeable chunk of your hard earned > money in procuring Jyotish-Quality Gems, its advisable to get the gem tested from the > best in business.> > > > Other leading Gem-Labs in Asia;> > > > Tokyo Gem

Laboratory, Bangkok & > > The Gems and Jewelry Institute of Thailand http://www.git.or.th/eng/eng_index.htm> > > > > > In & for your best interest> > > > Your Friend> > Abhishek> > > > > > > > > > > > > > Find a mall, hotel or ATM in any part of India. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ________> > Call friends with PC-to-PC calling -- FREE> > http://get.live.com/messenger/overview> >> > > > > >

> > > > Do You ?

[Guest guest]

Respected Shri. Richard ji, I agree with your opinion about majority gem testing laboratories in India. I did my diploma in gemmology and diamond grading last year from a local reputed institute in Poona. I am not a gemmologist, however, I learnt the basics of gemmology in the one year course. In Poona also there are few laboratories issuing certificates for gems and diamonds. I have gone through few of such certificates and was shocked to see the details. For example, I studied one of such certificate issued for an ornament ready for export. There were atleast 300 small diamonds in an ornament. The certificate had mentioned the grade as 'VVSI' as usual for all the diamonds in just one line. When I personally checked these diamonds, most of them were of a very poor quality with inproper cuts, faulty table and missing facets. Customer does not know any thing about gem

gradation and naturally insists on a certificate from a laboratory. Trader is interested in extracting money by spending few rupees on a certificate. Gem testing certificate costs only Rs. 300/- which is also taken from a customer if he insists on a certificate. Both of them are happy, customer for getting a gem testing certificate and a trader for getting a fish. What is the quality of such gems ? I have no answer. It is therefore better to go to a reputed trader instead of insisting on a certificate. Most of the certificates are 'tailored'. Thanking you and with regards, Chandrashekhar PhadkeRichard Shaw-Brown <rsbj66 wrote: Dear Sri Menon,Namaste! As you are a lawyer I reverted to the original message. It does not state that ALL Indian labs are condemned. The exact wording was, "I find that majority of Indian Gem Testing Labs, lack the state of the art equipment, trained personnel & off-course the integrity to give accurate reports." --- And I agree. Y/s, Richardsacred-objects , Kochu Menon <kochu1 wrote:>> > Dear Mr. Shaw-Brown:> I am not a gem dealer but a lawyer. It is true I collect gems. I am not a gem expert as you people are. > I do not think a reading of the mail to which I replied deals

with "independent" gem labs. The word "independent" is conspicuous by its absene in the mail. The poster condemned ALL gem labs in India wholesale. Thats a bit too much. Has this friend visited all labs?> Regarding customs officials, my experience has been (I travel in and out all the time) that they no longer bother about small things. Maybe it is because I use the official/diplomatic channel. > I have seen cheat gem dealers in nooyark and landan as well. I have seen crooked customs officials in these places also.> I have had experiences in Bangkok also. But, maybe because I am a small fish, I have escaped unscathed till now.> As Mr. Jaymunshi said, there are bad people and good people everywhere. I have heard bad stories about so called "honest people" touted as such also. I hear stories, I evaluate and then I decide. Simple? n'est ce pas?> Oh!! I forgot to ask where the Jaipur dealer imported stones

from. > I am not sure, I read somewhere that AIGS was not willing to certify Beryllium heat treated Saphires as Beryllium treated on some spacious arguments. Was it because of any mai-bap or was it scientific honesty? I wonder. But then I am not an authority. > > Lets leave it at that.> Menon> > > sacred-objects: jaymunshi: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:02:55 -0700Re: Re: Gem Identification Lab's in India; Buyers Beware> > > > > > Hello,> > I have been in and out of gems for over 10 years now and I too have some very nasty experiences.> > Custom Officers in India are one bunch of people who dont fear the effects of accumalating disastrous Karma. Now and then they have troubled me every time I am importing gems. Recently they sealed my consignment of nigerian emeralds. Charged me 25% duty

even after I bribed them lest they would have disappeared. > > Gem traders in India. I honestly cant decide if they are more dishonest or greedy. And gem labs....I wouldnt trust GIA since even they have been in cotroversies regarding grading of diamonds. I had a nice reddish gomedh of around 380 carats in sqare gut. The inclusions were clearly yelling that it was a gomedh. Yet the esteemed lab in Bombay gave me a certificate of a Pyrope. Disaster! I did not get a good price for it since the buyer insisted on a certificate.> > However there are traders who have been in business for generations. Time and again I have found them trustworthy. They know trust means continued business. Bangkok has been notorious for fushing berylium infused stones in the market. Some elements have made huge money on these in India selling gullible folks stones for thousands of dollars when they are worth a few pennies. > In

Gujarati we have a saying that Crows are black around the world (kagda badhe kala). If you have money to spend wether in India, Bangkok or Europe I would recommend caution. Buy gems only from well known shops or buy it from people you know personally. Its very hard to make money while one triffle and you have lost a fortune. I dont think that one must generalise on Gem Dealers in India or overseas.> > In my opinion discretion is also a better part of bargain.> > Best Regards,> > Jay> Richard Shaw-Brown <rsbj66 wrote:> > > I don't think this was a condemnation of all gem labs in India. Just a warning about trusting the independant labs. Labs associated with Institutions like Universities are the best choice.As far as the question of cheats in India, all I can say is India is the only country where we cannot send our products, because Indian customs officers are about

99.9% cheats. We have tried to send but have been cheated every time. If you can find an honest Indian custom officer they should make him Jagad Guru of Bharat.Again, 95% of Lakshmi Shank dealers in India are cheats fraudulently selling Lighting Whelk shells (fraud). So what to speak of gems...In Bangkok you only get cheated if you visit "tourist traps". Bangkok is a much better source of fine gems than anywhere in India. The best lab here is Gemological Institute of Thailand (GIT) part of the University here, 2nd best is AIGS (also a school).But I have no doubt that Sri Menon is an honest man. And many other Indian's I have known as well. So the Issue with labs is to go with the recognized labs only unless you are sure of your supplier.Best wishes,Richardsacred-objects , Kochu Menon <kochu1@> wrote:>> > Thank you for the information.

But do you really think "ALL" labs in India are fraud? Isn't there ONE Indian who can be honest? Wow!! what a country of cheats!! 1.3 Billion of them.> > And I was under the impression that Bangkok is the fraud centre in gem trade where if you buy at one shop and go back one hour later, after realising you have been cheated, the shop will have another name or would have disappeared altogether? Maybe it is a mistake? ALL jewellers in Bangkok are 100% honest with money back guarentee anytime any place? That also is a very interesting information.> > So you are suggesting that Indians do not buy gems from India but must buy from Thailand?> From whom in Thailand please? Any recommendations?Menon> > > sacred-objects@: benarsibabu@: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 07:24:55 +0100 Gem Identification Lab's in India; Buyers Beware> > > > > > Dear All,> > Gem

Testing is a highly scientific & specialized job. Infact along-with a discerning eye, the Gemologist should be a individual of high integrity. As the stakes involved are indeed high at times.> > To my utter dismay I find that majority of Indian Gem Testing Labs, lack the state of the art equipment, trained personnel & off-course the integrity to give accurate reports. Jewellers / Dealers enjoying clout leave no stone unturned in getting fabricated reports. > > There is a leading Gem-Importer in Jaipur, who imported tons!!! of Mong-Su & Madagascar Glass-Filled Rubies in 2000 & cheated gullible buyers. The material in its top-quality range sold for 2000 U$ for a 5 carat ruby & believe me it was really good. In connivance with some key wholesellers the material was dumped in the Indian Retail Segment. By 2005 when Gem Labs came to know about the treatment, there was material worth tens of crores in the

trade. & The Indian Traders were in no mood to book losses. They dumped the material further to consumers, off-couse in connivance with gem-labs.> > Gem Labs in India, do not have a mandatory disclosure of Heat Treatment, unless otherwise specified. So if Any Jeweller or Gem- Retailer shows you a certificate of say Sapphire Stone class, it will mention, "Natural Sapphire", but this does not constitute that the sapphire is unheated. > > Indian Sites which deal in Jyotish Gems & have displayed the certificate of the gem being sold, check on the certificate, it only mentions "Natural Sapphire", with no comment as to whether it is heated or unheated. > > Most of the Labs buckle when you insist on Heat Treatment Determination, the gemologist will first say its' impossible to make out. If you insist further he will take you to a corner & tell you that, he shall tell you orally but would not write it on the

certificate. Further he shall elaborate that 99% sapphires are heated and /or treated, so it is no big deal whether the one you have brought is heated or not. & Do you know why he is telling you this. Because otherwise the Jeweller his Mai-Bap would be displeased.> > If there is a gem-lab in Asia which can truly be relied upon for the high caliber of it's Gemologist, State of the Art Equipment & High Standards of its Integrity, it is AIGS, www.aigsthailand.com. > > So my dear forum members, if you are investing a sizeable chunk of your hard earned money in procuring Jyotish-Quality Gems, its advisable to get the gem tested from the best in business.> > Other leading Gem-Labs in Asia;> > Tokyo Gem Laboratory, Bangkok & > The Gems and Jewelry Institute of Thailand http://www.git.or.th/eng/eng_index.htm> > > In & for your best interest> > Your Friend>

Abhishek> > > > > > > Find a mall, hotel or ATM in any part of India. > > > > > > > > ________> Call friends with PC-to-PC calling -- FREE> http://get.live.com/messenger/overview>> > > > > > > > ________> Windows Live Spaces is here! It's easy to create your own personal Web site.> http://spaces.live.com/?mkt=en-in>

Explore your hobbies and interests. Click here to begin.

[Guest guest]

Chandrashekhar,

 

Namaste. Yes. There is also even more nonsense going on in the appraising the

value of gems. And not only in India... in America there were many independent

labs giving inflated or lowered values (retail replacement value) tailored to

buyer or seller or insurance company. But much of this has been stopped in the

USA because of criminal cases. Still it is going on around the world.

" Appraisal " is the biggest area of nonsense.

 

Best wishes,

Richard

 

sacred-objects , chandrashekhar phadke <chphadke

wrote:

>

> Respected Shri. Richard ji,

>

> I agree with your opinion about majority gem testing laboratories in India.

I did my

diploma in gemmology and diamond grading last year from a local reputed

institute in

Poona. I am not a gemmologist, however, I learnt the basics of gemmology in the

one year

course. In Poona also there are few laboratories issuing certificates for gems

and

diamonds. I have gone through few of such certificates and was shocked to see

the

details. For example, I studied one of such certificate issued for an ornament

ready for

export. There were atleast 300 small diamonds in an ornament. The certificate

had

mentioned the grade as 'VVSI' as usual for all the diamonds in just one line.

When I

personally checked these diamonds, most of them were of a very poor quality with

inproper cuts, faulty table and missing facets. Customer does not know any

thing about

gem gradation and naturally insists on a certificate from a laboratory. Trader

is interested

in extracting money by spending few

> rupees on a certificate. Gem testing certificate costs only Rs. 300/- which

is also taken

from a customer if he insists on a certificate. Both of them are happy,

customer for

getting a gem testing certificate and a trader for getting a fish. What is the

quality of such

gems ? I have no answer.

>

> It is therefore better to go to a reputed trader instead of insisting on a

certificate.

Most of the certificates are 'tailored'.

>

> Thanking you and with regards,

>

> Chandrashekhar Phadke

>

> Richard Shaw-Brown <rsbj66 wrote:

> Dear Sri Menon,

>

> Namaste! As you are a lawyer I reverted to the original message. It does not

state that

ALL Indian labs are condemned. The exact wording was, " I find that majority of

Indian Gem

Testing Labs, lack the state of the art equipment, trained personnel &

off-course the

integrity to give accurate reports. " --- And I agree. Y/s, Richard

>

> sacred-objects , Kochu Menon <kochu1@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > Dear Mr. Shaw-Brown:

> > I am not a gem dealer but a lawyer. It is true I collect gems. I am not a

gem expert as

> you people are.

> > I do not think a reading of the mail to which I replied deals with

" independent " gem

labs.

> The word " independent " is conspicuous by its absene in the mail. The poster

condemned

> ALL gem labs in India wholesale. Thats a bit too much. Has this friend visited

all labs?

> > Regarding customs officials, my experience has been (I travel in and out all

the time)

> that they no longer bother about small things. Maybe it is because I use the

official/

> diplomatic channel.

> > I have seen cheat gem dealers in nooyark and landan as well. I have seen

crooked

> customs officials in these places also.

> > I have had experiences in Bangkok also. But, maybe because I am a small

fish, I have

> escaped unscathed till now.

> > As Mr. Jaymunshi said, there are bad people and good people everywhere. I

have

heard

> bad stories about so called " honest people " touted as such also. I hear

stories, I evaluate

> and then I decide. Simple? n'est ce pas?

> > Oh!! I forgot to ask where the Jaipur dealer imported stones from.

> > I am not sure, I read somewhere that AIGS was not willing to certify

Beryllium heat

> treated Saphires as Beryllium treated on some spacious arguments. Was it

because of

any

> mai-bap or was it scientific honesty? I wonder. But then I am not an

authority.

> >

> > Lets leave it at that.

> > Menon

> >

> >

> > sacred-objects@: jaymunshi@: Mon, 22 Oct 2007 08:02:55 -0700Re:

> Re: Gem Identification Lab's in India; Buyers Beware

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > Hello,

> >

> > I have been in and out of gems for over 10 years now and I too have some

very nasty

> experiences.

> >

> > Custom Officers in India are one bunch of people who dont fear the effects

of

> accumalating disastrous Karma. Now and then they have troubled me every time I

am

> importing gems. Recently they sealed my consignment of nigerian emeralds.

Charged

me

> 25% duty even after I bribed them lest they would have disappeared.

> >

> > Gem traders in India. I honestly cant decide if they are more dishonest or

greedy. And

> gem labs....I wouldnt trust GIA since even they have been in cotroversies

regarding

> grading of diamonds. I had a nice reddish gomedh of around 380 carats in sqare

gut.

The

> inclusions were clearly yelling that it was a gomedh. Yet the esteemed lab in

Bombay

gave

> me a certificate of a Pyrope. Disaster! I did not get a good price for it

since the buyer

> insisted on a certificate.

> >

> > However there are traders who have been in business for generations. Time

and again

I

> have found them trustworthy. They know trust means continued business. Bangkok

has

> been notorious for fushing berylium infused stones in the market. Some

elements have

> made huge money on these in India selling gullible folks stones for thousands

of dollars

> when they are worth a few pennies.

> > In Gujarati we have a saying that Crows are black around the world (kagda

badhe

kala).

> If you have money to spend wether in India, Bangkok or Europe I would

recommend

> caution. Buy gems only from well known shops or buy it from people you know

personally.

> Its very hard to make money while one triffle and you have lost a fortune. I

dont think

that

> one must generalise on Gem Dealers in India or overseas.

> >

> > In my opinion discretion is also a better part of bargain.

> >

> > Best Regards,

> >

> > Jay

> > Richard Shaw-Brown <rsbj66@> wrote:

> >

> >

> > I don't think this was a condemnation of all gem labs in India. Just a

warning about

> trusting the independant labs. Labs associated with Institutions like

Universities are the

> best choice.As far as the question of cheats in India, all I can say is India

is the only

> country where we cannot send our products, because Indian customs officers are

about

> 99.9% cheats. We have tried to send but have been cheated every time. If you

can find

an

> honest Indian custom officer they should make him Jagad Guru of Bharat.Again,

95% of

> Lakshmi Shank dealers in India are cheats fraudulently selling Lighting Whelk

shells

> (fraud). So what to speak of gems...In Bangkok you only get cheated if you

visit " tourist

> traps " . Bangkok is a much better source of fine gems than anywhere in India.

The best

lab

> here is Gemological Institute of Thailand (GIT) part of the University here,

2nd best is

AIGS

> (also a school).But I have no doubt that Sri Menon is an honest man. And many

other

> Indian's I have known as well. So the Issue with labs is to go with the

recognized labs

only

> unless you are sure of your supplier.Best wishes,Richardsacred-

> objects , Kochu Menon <kochu1@> wrote:>> > Thank you for the

> information. But do you really think " ALL " labs in India are fraud? Isn't

there ONE Indian

> who can be honest? Wow!! what a country of cheats!! 1.3 Billion of them.> >

And I was

> under the impression that Bangkok is the fraud centre in gem trade where if

you buy at

> one shop and go back one hour later, after realising you have been cheated,

the shop

will

> have another name or would have disappeared altogether? Maybe it is a mistake?

ALL

> jewellers in Bangkok are 100% honest with money back guarentee anytime any

place?

That

> also is a very interesting information.> > So you are suggesting that Indians

do not buy

> gems from India but must buy from Thailand?> From whom in Thailand please? Any

> recommendations?Menon> > > sacred-objects@: benarsibabu@: Mon, 22 Oct 2007

> 07:24:55 +0100 Gem Identification Lab's in India;

Buyers

> Beware> > > > > > Dear All,> > Gem Testing is a highly scientific &

specialized job.

> Infact along-with a discerning eye, the Gemologist should be a individual of

high

integrity.

> As the stakes involved are indeed high at times.> > To my utter dismay I find

that

> majority of Indian Gem Testing Labs, lack the state of the art equipment,

trained

personnel

> & off-course the integrity to give accurate reports. Jewellers / Dealers

enjoying clout

leave

> no stone unturned in getting fabricated reports. > > There is a leading

Gem-Importer in

> Jaipur, who imported tons!!! of Mong-Su & Madagascar Glass-Filled Rubies in

2000 &

> cheated gullible buyers. The material in its top-quality range sold for 2000

U$ for a 5

> carat ruby & believe me it was really good. In connivance with some key

wholesellers the

> material was dumped in the Indian Retail Segment. By 2005 when Gem Labs came

to

know

> about the treatment, there was material worth tens of crores in the trade. &

The Indian

> Traders were in no mood to book losses. They dumped the material further to

consumers,

> off-couse in connivance with gem-labs.> > Gem Labs in India, do not have a

mandatory

> disclosure of Heat Treatment, unless otherwise specified. So if Any Jeweller

or Gem-

> Retailer shows you a certificate of say Sapphire Stone class, it will mention,

" Natural

> Sapphire " , but this does not constitute that the sapphire is unheated. > >

Indian Sites

> which deal in Jyotish Gems & have displayed the certificate of the gem being

sold, check

> on the certificate, it only mentions " Natural Sapphire " , with no comment as to

whether it

is

> heated or unheated. > > Most of the Labs buckle when you insist on Heat

Treatment

> Determination, the gemologist will first say its' impossible to make out. If

you insist

> further he will take you to a corner & tell you that, he shall tell you orally

but would not

> write it on the certificate. Further he shall elaborate that 99% sapphires are

heated and /

or

> treated, so it is no big deal whether the one you have brought is heated or

not. & Do

you

> know why he is telling you this. Because otherwise the Jeweller his Mai-Bap

would be

> displeased.> > If there is a gem-lab in Asia which can truly be relied upon

for the high

> caliber of it's Gemologist, State of the Art Equipment & High Standards of its

Integrity, it

is

> AIGS, www.aigsthailand.com. > > So my dear forum members, if you are investing

a

> sizeable chunk of your hard earned money in procuring Jyotish-Quality Gems,

its

advisable

> to get the gem tested from the best in business.> > Other leading Gem-Labs in

Asia;>

>

> Tokyo Gem Laboratory, Bangkok & > The Gems and Jewelry Institute of Thailand

http://

> www.git.or.th/eng/eng_index.htm> > > In & for your best interest> > Your

Friend>

> Abhishek> > > > > > > Find a mall, hotel or ATM in any part of India. Click

here. > > >

>

> > > > > ________> Call

friends with

> PC-to-PC calling -- FREE> http://get.live.com/messenger/overview>

> > Tired of

spam?

> Mail has the best spam protection around

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ________

> > Windows Live Spaces is here! It's easy to create your own personal Web site.

> > http://spaces.live.com/?mkt=en-in

> >

 

> Explore your hobbies and interests. Click here to begin.

>