Jump to content
IndiaDivine.org

No vama marga for dwijas

Rate this topic


Guest guest

Recommended Posts

Dear members,

 

Followers of dakshina marga, perform nitya / naimittika karmas as per the

srutis / Vedas. Apart from their ishta devata upasana, they have deva, pitri,

rishi tarpanas and karmas. They perform pancha paka yajnas and saptha havir

yajnas. So, there is no riNAnubandha for them as far as the vaidika

karmanushtana method is concerned. Karma anushtana leads to Chitta shuddhi and

eventually the Jnana siddhi.

 

Whereas, vama marga is the veda viruddha achara where every karmAnushTana has

to be directed to Tripura Bhairavi and phala samarpana should be done to Tripura

Bhairavi. The dwijas who follow the Vama Marga are prohibited from performing

pancha paka yajnas and saptha havir yajnas. Thus, they get entangled in

riNAnubandha and there is no riNa vimOchana for the dwijas who follow vAma

mArga. They are vEda bAhyAs. Since, there is no riNa vimOchana, adopting the

vAma mArga, the dwijas get entangled in samsara (punarapi maranam punarapi

jananam punarapi janani jatare shayanam). Moreover, omitting of veda

karmanushtana is a sin and there is a danger of pratyavAya. The jnana siddhi

for dwijas adopting the vama marga is very difficult which is full of pitfalls.

 

Dwijas tamAt jAgratta!!!

 

With regards,

sriram

 

 

 

Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Sriram,

 

According to His biographies, the Avathara Varishta Paramahamsa Sri

Ramakrishna, a dwija by birth, seemed to have tread the vamachara marga,

including sadhana with the panchamakaras. Hoping that you would have come across

relevant literature on Him, could you kindly clarify on this?

 

Sudarshan

 

venkata sriram <sriram_sapthasathi wrote:

Dear members,

 

Followers of dakshina marga, perform nitya / naimittika karmas as per the srutis

/ Vedas. Apart from their ishta devata upasana, they have deva, pitri, rishi

tarpanas and karmas. They perform pancha paka yajnas and saptha havir yajnas.

So, there is no riNAnubandha for them as far as the vaidika karmanushtana method

is concerned. Karma anushtana leads to Chitta shuddhi and eventually the Jnana

siddhi.

 

Whereas, vama marga is the veda viruddha achara where every karmAnushTana has to

be directed to Tripura Bhairavi and phala samarpana should be done to Tripura

Bhairavi. The dwijas who follow the Vama Marga are prohibited from performing

pancha paka yajnas and saptha havir yajnas. Thus, they get entangled in

riNAnubandha and there is no riNa vimOchana for the dwijas who follow vAma

mArga. They are vEda bAhyAs. Since, there is no riNa vimOchana, adopting the

vAma mArga, the dwijas get entangled in samsara (punarapi maranam punarapi

jananam punarapi janani jatare shayanam). Moreover, omitting of veda

karmanushtana is a sin and there is a danger of pratyavAya. The jnana siddhi for

dwijas adopting the vama marga is very difficult which is full of pitfalls.

 

Dwijas tamAt jAgratta!!!

 

With regards,

sriram

 

 

Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear sudarshan,

 

Namste.

 

Since you hail from illustrious kamakoti family, I need not explain

you about the sankara siddhanta. Now regarding this adhikara

nirnaya of vama and dakshina, Shri Bhaskara has wonderfully

explained the name " savyApasavya mArgasthA " . In explaining this,

Shri Bhaskara has explained the " shishTa lakshaNa " and his upasana

vidhi. A vamachari has no mukti till he attains the PrAjnatva

Siddhi after his entire riNAnubandha is nullified.

 

Whatever karma kanda (yajna, dana, tarpana, arghya etc.), either it

reaches the Martanda Bhairava / Bhairava or Tripura Bhairavi. The

havir bhaga does not reach the corresponding vedic deity. Here,

Tripura Bhairavi is the Havir Grahita and such a devi who accepts

the Havir bhaga of the Vedic Deities is called VAMA. Such a person

who performs the karma kanda by offering the phala to Bhairava and

Bhairavi is a Vamachari. Every Vedic Deity is replaced by either

Bhairava, Bhairavi or Martanda Bhairava. Such a person is prohibited

from performing Vaidika Karmanushtana like nitya sandhya of Savitr

with Arghya to Surya, Panchayatana, Pancha Paka Yanjnas, Saptha

Havir Yajnas, Sthalipaka and other kratus. The Dwija who adopts the

Vama Marga is a Pataka.

 

Now coming to Ramakrishna, his mode of worship was with Divya

Bhava. Even after the marriage with Sarada, he considered his wife

to be Mother Kali leave alone the thought of physical touch or

conjugal love. He has shunned the Kamini and Kanchana and brushed

them aside like insignificant things. Even though he is dvija, he

is an exception as he is an avatara purusha.

 

Moreover, singing, dancing, talking and playing with Mother is not

Moksha. He may be dwelling on higher planes of consciousness but it

is also an emotional outburst which is also a maya. His sadhana

concluded only with the advent of Tota Puri where he was directed to

adopt advaita sadhana. And he achieved it in 3 days.

 

For the people like us, we should constantly remember the

adage " mannathah sri jagannathah madguruh sri jagatguruh " . We

should tread the path shown by Acharya Shankara.

 

With regards,

Sriram

 

Jaya Jaya sankara hara hara sankara

 

, sudarshan balasubramanian

<sudarshanbalasubramanian wrote:

>

> Dear Sriram,

>

> According to His biographies, the Avathara Varishta Paramahamsa

Sri Ramakrishna, a dwija by birth, seemed to have tread the

vamachara marga, including sadhana with the panchamakaras. Hoping

that you would have come across relevant literature on Him, could

you kindly clarify on this?

>

> Sudarshan

>

> venkata sriram <sriram_sapthasathi wrote:

> Dear members,

>

> Followers of dakshina marga, perform nitya / naimittika karmas as

per the srutis / Vedas. Apart from their ishta devata upasana, they

have deva, pitri, rishi tarpanas and karmas. They perform pancha

paka yajnas and saptha havir yajnas. So, there is no riNAnubandha

for them as far as the vaidika karmanushtana method is concerned.

Karma anushtana leads to Chitta shuddhi and eventually the Jnana

siddhi.

>

> Whereas, vama marga is the veda viruddha achara where every

karmAnushTana has to be directed to Tripura Bhairavi and phala

samarpana should be done to Tripura Bhairavi. The dwijas who follow

the Vama Marga are prohibited from performing pancha paka yajnas and

saptha havir yajnas. Thus, they get entangled in riNAnubandha and

there is no riNa vimOchana for the dwijas who follow vAma mArga.

They are vEda bAhyAs. Since, there is no riNa vimOchana, adopting

the vAma mArga, the dwijas get entangled in samsara (punarapi

maranam punarapi jananam punarapi janani jatare shayanam). Moreover,

omitting of veda karmanushtana is a sin and there is a danger of

pratyavAya. The jnana siddhi for dwijas adopting the vama marga is

very difficult which is full of pitfalls.

>

> Dwijas tamAt jAgratta!!!

>

> With regards,

> sriram

>

>

> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In short 99% of the upasakas however practical in their method of their

worship, are found to be satisfied with their achievement in the body and mental

speheres only and they start to appreciate their own visions, and feels that he

has achieved the end. Whereas the achievement is only relative to the body and

mind and not soul.Apasavya is not against savya, and on the contrary when savya

is achieved, it croses the boundary and becomes apasavya. Similarly when Dharma

croses the border and becomes adharma, the sadhaka is not bound by any rules and

regulations. That is how even Ramakrishna Paramahamsa dwelled on Kali and could

find her alive within and without him. Therefore upasana, has its own borders

and barriers to be crossed.

 

I do not think sex is mistaken. The union is between the soul of the upasaka

and his Guru and the Divine abstract energy which alone can be called " Triputi " .

But people mistake it as the union of male and female, which is mind and body

oriented, whereas the Triputi is relative to the Divine.

 

S.SHANGARANARAYANAN

 

 

 

: sriram_sapthasathi: Mon, 13 Oct

2008 09:53:53 +0000 Re: No vama marga for dwijas

 

 

 

 

Dear sudarshan,Namste. Since you hail from illustrious kamakoti family, I need

not explain you about the sankara siddhanta. Now regarding this adhikara nirnaya

of vama and dakshina, Shri Bhaskara has wonderfully explained the name

" savyApasavya mArgasthA " . In explaining this, Shri Bhaskara has explained the

" shishTa lakshaNa " and his upasana vidhi. A vamachari has no mukti till he

attains the PrAjnatva Siddhi after his entire riNAnubandha is nullified.

Whatever karma kanda (yajna, dana, tarpana, arghya etc.), either it reaches the

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Namaste Sriram,

 

Thanks for the clarification. I absolutely am for abiding by the path shown by

Acharyal. I just wanted clarification on Sri Paramahamsa's sadhana.

 

Moreover, I am absolutely unworthy of your words. I have not done the punyam to

be associated even with the dust of the feet of the illustrious Kamakoti family.

I am just another ordinary bloke.

 

Sudarshan

 

 

 

sriram <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: Dear

sudarshan,

 

Namste.

 

Since you hail from illustrious kamakoti family, I need not explain

you about the sankara siddhanta. Now regarding this adhikara

nirnaya of vama and dakshina, Shri Bhaskara has wonderfully

explained the name " savyApasavya mArgasthA " . In explaining this,

Shri Bhaskara has explained the " shishTa lakshaNa " and his upasana

vidhi. A vamachari has no mukti till he attains the PrAjnatva

Siddhi after his entire riNAnubandha is nullified.

 

Whatever karma kanda (yajna, dana, tarpana, arghya etc.), either it

reaches the Martanda Bhairava / Bhairava or Tripura Bhairavi. The

havir bhaga does not reach the corresponding vedic deity. Here,

Tripura Bhairavi is the Havir Grahita and such a devi who accepts

the Havir bhaga of the Vedic Deities is called VAMA. Such a person

who performs the karma kanda by offering the phala to Bhairava and

Bhairavi is a Vamachari. Every Vedic Deity is replaced by either

Bhairava, Bhairavi or Martanda Bhairava. Such a person is prohibited

from performing Vaidika Karmanushtana like nitya sandhya of Savitr

with Arghya to Surya, Panchayatana, Pancha Paka Yanjnas, Saptha

Havir Yajnas, Sthalipaka and other kratus. The Dwija who adopts the

Vama Marga is a Pataka.

 

Now coming to Ramakrishna, his mode of worship was with Divya

Bhava. Even after the marriage with Sarada, he considered his wife

to be Mother Kali leave alone the thought of physical touch or

conjugal love. He has shunned the Kamini and Kanchana and brushed

them aside like insignificant things. Even though he is dvija, he

is an exception as he is an avatara purusha.

 

Moreover, singing, dancing, talking and playing with Mother is not

Moksha. He may be dwelling on higher planes of consciousness but it

is also an emotional outburst which is also a maya. His sadhana

concluded only with the advent of Tota Puri where he was directed to

adopt advaita sadhana. And he achieved it in 3 days.

 

For the people like us, we should constantly remember the

adage " mannathah sri jagannathah madguruh sri jagatguruh " . We

should tread the path shown by Acharya Shankara.

 

With regards,

Sriram

 

Jaya Jaya sankara hara hara sankara

 

, sudarshan balasubramanian

<sudarshanbalasubramanian wrote:

>

> Dear Sriram,

>

> According to His biographies, the Avathara Varishta Paramahamsa

Sri Ramakrishna, a dwija by birth, seemed to have tread the

vamachara marga, including sadhana with the panchamakaras. Hoping

that you would have come across relevant literature on Him, could

you kindly clarify on this?

>

> Sudarshan

>

> venkata sriram <sriram_sapthasathi wrote:

> Dear members,

>

> Followers of dakshina marga, perform nitya / naimittika karmas as

per the srutis / Vedas. Apart from their ishta devata upasana, they

have deva, pitri, rishi tarpanas and karmas. They perform pancha

paka yajnas and saptha havir yajnas. So, there is no riNAnubandha

for them as far as the vaidika karmanushtana method is concerned.

Karma anushtana leads to Chitta shuddhi and eventually the Jnana

siddhi.

>

> Whereas, vama marga is the veda viruddha achara where every

karmAnushTana has to be directed to Tripura Bhairavi and phala

samarpana should be done to Tripura Bhairavi. The dwijas who follow

the Vama Marga are prohibited from performing pancha paka yajnas and

saptha havir yajnas. Thus, they get entangled in riNAnubandha and

there is no riNa vimOchana for the dwijas who follow vAma mArga.

They are vEda bAhyAs. Since, there is no riNa vimOchana, adopting

the vAma mArga, the dwijas get entangled in samsara (punarapi

maranam punarapi jananam punarapi janani jatare shayanam). Moreover,

omitting of veda karmanushtana is a sin and there is a danger of

pratyavAya. The jnana siddhi for dwijas adopting the vama marga is

very difficult which is full of pitfalls.

>

> Dwijas tamAt jAgratta!!!

>

> With regards,

> sriram

>

>

> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Invite them now.

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

, " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote:

> We

> should tread the path shown by Acharya Shankara.

 

When statements like these are made we should be a bit cautious.

Those interested will follow Shankara's school. There is no binding

rule on smArta-s to follow Shankara.

 

Some stick to shuti smriti purana and tantra-s(those in line with

shruti, smriti) without any special allegiance to shankara matha-s.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

When we say kaula marga, we mistake it to sex. This is totally wrong. Even Adi

Sankara, contravening his sanyasa dharma, would have stopped to such a low level

of " para stri ghamanam " in order to win over Bharathi on the Bliss experience of

union. Certainly he had the capacity to transmit his divine energy and enjoyed

the bliss of merging the jiva atma with parama atma. Accoding to me even Sankara

when doing the worship of sriyantra, must have avoided the bindu tarpana, which

tradition is followed by his followers and maths.

Let us try to understand that srividhya is athma vidhya and I know several devi

upasakas who do not follow sankara's school of thought. There are several

upasakas in the vaishnava cult who are great followers of parambha, as you would

know that Lakshmi is the first lady of the universe and even the Vaishnavits are

keen devi upasakas.

 

Regards,

S.SHANGARANARAYANAN

 

 

 

: satisharigela: Fri, 17 Oct 2008

05:26:57 +0000 Re: No vama marga for dwijas

 

 

 

 

, " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi wrote:> We >

should tread the path shown by Acharya Shankara. When statements like these are

made we should be a bit cautious.Those interested will follow Shankara's school.

There is no binding rule on smArta-s to follow Shankara.Some stick to shuti

smriti purana and tantra-s(those in line with shruti, smriti) without any

special allegiance to shankara matha-s.

 

 

 

 

 

_______________

Searching for weekend getaways? Try Live.com

http://www.live.com/?scope=video & form=MICOAL

 

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear sir,

 

Namaste.

 

There have been several distorted versions on the biographical sketch

of acharya sankara. This is one among them. And I don't want to

delve into it.

 

As regards the kaula marga, acharya gaudapada in his " subhagodaya

stuti " has clearly explained what is kaulachara and samayachara.

Interested people can refer it.

 

Since, this is not the forum on vama cult, i would not delve into it

but just my two cents.

 

As regards the 5 Ms, there are 3 modes of upasana. One is pashu,

second is vira and the third is divya bhavana. So, there are no

rahasyasthas as regards the maithuna or rest of the Ms are

concerned. The difference is ONLY IN THE BHAVANA. The person who

follows the sruti pramana, should follow the smartha sampradaya and

should follow the rules and regulations laid down by the as per the

sadachara. The srividya should be based on sadachara and as per varna

ashrama dharma.

 

There are rahasyarthas for 5 Ms like matsya is symbolic

representation for Jiva bhava etc. etc. (ref " parishrutam jhusham

Ajapalam....... " ). Though these seem to be biased interpretations of

vedantis, this is the uttama lakshana of the upasaka who follows the

sadachara and who accepts the sruti pramana.

 

But that does not mean that all the 4 varnas should accept this

interpretation.

 

The problem lies with the MISRACHARA (mixing of cults). A trai-

varnika stooping to the levels of vama should be condemned. But the

4th varna has the options open. Either he can choose the vama or

dakshina. But again, it depends upon his chitta samskaras.

 

This reminds me of an episode of Shri Girish Chandra Ghosh in the

biography of Ramakrishna Paramahamsa. Ghosh was a drunkard. After

meeting with this saint, he tries to avoid this habid of drinking but

could not. He approaches the Paramahamsa and asks for a solution. The

saint advices that before drinking, offer a little of alcohol to

Mother Kali in you house. Ghosh follows the instructions. Within no

time, he kicks off this drinking habit. THIS SHOULD BE THE SPIRIT OF

VAMACHARA. The Vama cult never rejects any thing. It is a positive

approach that accepts all your negative tendencies and converts them

into sadhana. In this approach, ultimately, a vama sadhaka would kick

off his pashu bhava and chooses the " right track " and " merges " with

Mother.

 

Unfortunately, some of the todays Srividya upasakas are following the

misra-cult. They are neither Samaya nor Vama.

 

Moreover, there is a controversy of conferring Purnadiksha to

Bachelors. " Sakti uktasya eva diksha " says the kaula sastra. But

brahmacharis are given purna diksha which is against kaula.

 

Again, if they belong to Samaya path, why the diksha extends upto the

Purnabhisheka which is not to be found in samaya cult.

 

I have some reservations against this diksha sampradaya.

 

Is not the Panchadasi, Shodashi, Hamsa Vidya enough for the upasakas

who rant about the Samayachara?

 

With regards,

sriram

 

, S Sangaranarayanan <sangarsai

wrote:

>

>

> When we say kaula marga, we mistake it to sex. This is totally

wrong. Even Adi Sankara, contravening his sanyasa dharma, would have

stopped to such a low level of " para stri ghamanam " in order to win

over Bharathi on the Bliss experience of union. Certainly he had the

capacity to transmit his divine energy and enjoyed the bliss of

merging the jiva atma with parama atma. Accoding to me even Sankara

when doing the worship of sriyantra, must have avoided the bindu

tarpana, which tradition is followed by his followers and maths.

> Let us try to understand that srividhya is athma vidhya and I know

several devi upasakas who do not follow sankara's school of thought.

There are several upasakas in the vaishnava cult who are great

followers of parambha, as you would know that Lakshmi is the first

lady of the universe and even the Vaishnavits are keen devi upasakas.

>

> Regards,

> S.SHANGARANARAYANAN

>

>

>

> : satisharigela: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 05:26:57

+0000 Re: No vama marga for dwijas

>

>

>

>

> , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@>

wrote:> We > should tread the path shown by Acharya Shankara. When

statements like these are made we should be a bit cautious.Those

interested will follow Shankara's school. There is no binding rule on

smArta-s to follow Shankara.Some stick to shuti smriti purana and

tantra-s(those in line with shruti, smriti) without any special

allegiance to shankara matha-s.

>

>

>

>

>

> _______________

> Searching for weekend getaways? Try Live.com

> http://www.live.com/?scope=video & form=MICOAL

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

, " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi

wrote:

> Within no

> time, he kicks off this drinking habit. THIS SHOULD BE THE SPIRIT

OF

> VAMACHARA. The Vama cult never rejects any thing. It is a positive

> approach that accepts all your negative tendencies and converts

them

> into sadhana. In this approach, ultimately, a vama sadhaka would

kick

> off his pashu bhava and chooses the " right track " and " merges " with

> Mother.

 

According to teh tArA tantra(or is it Brahma yamala? - cant remember)

only one who has total control over his senses and devoid of

addiction to drinking and who is as good as a napuMsaka (eunuch)

before a para strI i.e. one who doesnt desire another's wife even in

thoughts , only they are vIra-s and fit for puja with 5Ms.

 

Another tantra(probably the mahiSha-mardini tantra) clearly says

that " only one who has attained mantra siddhi is a vIra, not a

drunkard " . " siddha-mantrI(n) " is the exact word in the quotation.

 

There can be no disagrement on other things you said about

varNAshrama dharma for followers of shrIvidya.

 

Even some of the so called kaula texts lay emphasis on following

varNa dharma outside the kaula ritual. As we can see vAmAchAra is not

necesarily for the lowliest as it is being publicised in some other

forums. It is only for some advanced sAdhaka-s who are destined for

it.

 

I personally know shrauti-s who follow kaula rituals with proper

substitues and there is no difference in siddhi. In such rituals, the

effect was the same(or similar) with little or no difference when

compared to a full fledged vAmA ritual. But the idea and the spirit

behind the usage of 5Ms has to be grasped completely - this is what I

was told.

 

I am aware that vAmA and kaula are being clubbed here and dont like

to dwell on the differences now.

 

Regards

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Have those Srivaishnavas that are initiated into Srividya accepted

the unity of ShankaraNarayana before delving into the unity of

ShivaShakti? This is because although Kameshwara and Kameshwari are

equated with entities of Purusha and Prakriti, they are still seen

as nondifferent from Uma-Maheshwara and not essentially as Lakshmi-

Narayana.

 

, S Sangaranarayanan <sangarsai

wrote:

>

>

> When we say kaula marga, we mistake it to sex. This is totally

wrong. Even Adi Sankara, contravening his sanyasa dharma, would have

stopped to such a low level of " para stri ghamanam " in order to win

over Bharathi on the Bliss experience of union. Certainly he had the

capacity to transmit his divine energy and enjoyed the bliss of

merging the jiva atma with parama atma. Accoding to me even Sankara

when doing the worship of sriyantra, must have avoided the bindu

tarpana,

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear satish,

 

<<

According to teh tArA tantra(or is it Brahma yamala? - cant remember)

only one who has total control over his senses and devoid of

addiction to drinking and who is as good as a napuMsaka (eunuch)

before a para strI i.e. one who doesnt desire another's wife even in

thoughts , only they are vIra-s and fit for puja with 5Ms.>>

 

Why would one go for 5 Ms one WHO HAS TOTAL CONTROL OF SENSES, NO

ADDICTION TO ALCOHOL, PARA-STRI VIMUKHATA?

 

This is simply ridiculous!!! The one WHO HAS PERFECT CONTROL OF

HIMSELF WOULD NATURALLY PREFER THE DIVYA BHAVA WHICH WOULD BE HIS

NATURAL INCLINATION.

 

As regards the srautas following vama rituals, yes there are

substitutes for 5 Ms and i am aware of them which are called pancha

adi dravyas. Some of our own relatives follow these things in Andhra.

And i have cut off the relations with them. Because, for me they are

veda bAhyAs. And we don't allow them in our saha-pankti bhojana.

 

regs,

sriram

 

 

, " Satish " <satisharigela wrote:

>

> , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@>

> wrote:

> > Within no

> > time, he kicks off this drinking habit. THIS SHOULD BE THE SPIRIT

> OF

> > VAMACHARA. The Vama cult never rejects any thing. It is a

positive

> > approach that accepts all your negative tendencies and converts

> them

> > into sadhana. In this approach, ultimately, a vama sadhaka would

> kick

> > off his pashu bhava and chooses the " right track " and " merges "

with

> > Mother.

>

> According to teh tArA tantra(or is it Brahma yamala? - cant

remember)

> only one who has total control over his senses and devoid of

> addiction to drinking and who is as good as a napuMsaka (eunuch)

> before a para strI i.e. one who doesnt desire another's wife even

in

> thoughts , only they are vIra-s and fit for puja with 5Ms.

>

> Another tantra(probably the mahiSha-mardini tantra) clearly says

> that " only one who has attained mantra siddhi is a vIra, not a

> drunkard " . " siddha-mantrI(n) " is the exact word in the quotation.

>

> There can be no disagrement on other things you said about

> varNAshrama dharma for followers of shrIvidya.

>

> Even some of the so called kaula texts lay emphasis on following

> varNa dharma outside the kaula ritual. As we can see vAmAchAra is

not

> necesarily for the lowliest as it is being publicised in some other

> forums. It is only for some advanced sAdhaka-s who are destined for

> it.

>

> I personally know shrauti-s who follow kaula rituals with proper

> substitues and there is no difference in siddhi. In such rituals,

the

> effect was the same(or similar) with little or no difference when

> compared to a full fledged vAmA ritual. But the idea and the spirit

> behind the usage of 5Ms has to be grasped completely - this is what

I

> was told.

>

> I am aware that vAmA and kaula are being clubbed here and dont like

> to dwell on the differences now.

>

> Regards

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear sir,

 

Whether acharya sankara did bindu tarpana or not we donot know

because we were not present at that time.

 

Moreover, the acharyas like Sankara does not need bAhyA varivasya.

Nirantara anusandhana of chitkala at Sahasrara is the Bindu Tarpana

for them. For them, their own deha is the sriyantra, hridaya is the

Pitha and sahasrara is the bindu. The anusandhana of the Chitkala at

Sahasrara is the the bindu tarpana.

 

This reminds me of Shri Chandrasekhara Bharati Mahaswamigal who was a

legendary figure in Srividya. His upasana was a unique and unusual.

The sarada-chandramouliswara puja would continue the whole night. His

paricharakas and others beside him would doze off. But swamigal used

to do the anusandhana of each and every name of LS and would go into

trance. Sometimes, the kumkuma and flowers that were used for worship

of yantra, He would put on his head. He used to be in communion and

total identity with Tripurasundari. THIS IS UPASANA. And that is

what Acharya Sankara says in his commentary of Chandogya Upanishad.

Upasana is not sprinkling some kumkuma, akshata, doing arghya,

tarpana etc. Nirantara anusandhana of the nirupadhika akhanda purna

chaitanya is upasana.

 

BTW, the bindu tarpana in sringeri is performed with go-kshira (cow's

milk).

 

As regards the srividya in vaishnava cult, i have no idea.

 

But yes, there is shakta worship for madhvas. But theirs is quite

different from ours. My gurunatha has the copy of shakta worship that

was followed by madhvas as he was quite close to some of the pundits

belonging to bandareke and uttaradi mutt though he was a smartha. The

guru of present muthadhipati of banderekere mutt was a

chandikopasaka. The sakti nyasas pertaining to madhva sampradaya are

quite different from that of ours.

 

With regards,

sriram

 

 

, S Sangaranarayanan <sangarsai

wrote:

>

>

> When we say kaula marga, we mistake it to sex. This is totally

wrong. Even Adi Sankara, contravening his sanyasa dharma, would have

stopped to such a low level of " para stri ghamanam " in order to win

over Bharathi on the Bliss experience of union. Certainly he had the

capacity to transmit his divine energy and enjoyed the bliss of

merging the jiva atma with parama atma. Accoding to me even Sankara

when doing the worship of sriyantra, must have avoided the bindu

tarpana, which tradition is followed by his followers and maths.

> Let us try to understand that srividhya is athma vidhya and I know

several devi upasakas who do not follow sankara's school of thought.

There are several upasakas in the vaishnava cult who are great

followers of parambha, as you would know that Lakshmi is the first

lady of the universe and even the Vaishnavits are keen devi upasakas.

>

> Regards,

> S.SHANGARANARAYANAN

>

>

>

> : satisharigela: Fri, 17 Oct 2008 05:26:57

+0000 Re: No vama marga for dwijas

>

>

>

>

> , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@>

wrote:> We > should tread the path shown by Acharya Shankara. When

statements like these are made we should be a bit cautious.Those

interested will follow Shankara's school. There is no binding rule on

smArta-s to follow Shankara.Some stick to shuti smriti purana and

tantra-s(those in line with shruti, smriti) without any special

allegiance to shankara matha-s.

>

>

>

>

>

> _______________

> Searching for weekend getaways? Try Live.com

> http://www.live.com/?scope=video & form=MICOAL

>

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Sriram,

 

Can you please explain the Madhwa way of Srividya or Shaktha worship? Werent

they primarily Hari bhakthas (Madhwacharya varlu, Raghavendra theertharu and

the others)?

 

Thanks,

Raghav

 

 

On 10/21/08, sriram <sriram_sapthasathi wrote:

>

> Dear sir,

>

> Whether acharya sankara did bindu tarpana or not we donot know

> because we were not present at that time.

>

> Moreover, the acharyas like Sankara does not need bAhyA varivasya.

> Nirantara anusandhana of chitkala at Sahasrara is the Bindu Tarpana

> for

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Namaste,

 

If we go by " accordings " , each one of us can have our own opinion, which will

simply take us miles away from the truth.

 

A close friend known to my grandfather, an Iyengar, was a srividyopasaka par

excellence. Probably such SriVaishnavas grew out of their mindsets of Narayana

Paratvam by the better understanding of " Karanguli Nakhodaya Narayana

Dashavathara " .

 

Regards,

Sudarshan

 

sriram <sriram_sapthasathi wrote: Dear

sir,

 

Whether acharya sankara did bindu tarpana or not we donot know

because we were not present at that time.

 

Moreover, the acharyas like Sankara does not need bAhyA varivasya.

Nirantara anusandhana of chitkala at Sahasrara is the Bindu Tarpana

for them. For them, their own deha is the sriyantra, hridaya is the

Pitha and sahasrara is the bindu.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

, " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi

wrote:

 

 

> Why would one go for 5 Ms one WHO HAS TOTAL CONTROL OF SENSES, NO

> ADDICTION TO ALCOHOL, PARA-STRI VIMUKHATA?

 

Underlying this question is a false assumption that only people who

has teh urge to drink alchohol etc would go for puja with 5Ms.

 

This assumption is already shown to be false by the quotes from tArA

and mahiSha-mardini tantra-s. The are some other tantra-s which say a

similar thing. So no point in raising this question again.

 

 

> This is simply ridiculous!!! The one WHO HAS PERFECT CONTROL OF

> HIMSELF WOULD NATURALLY PREFER THE DIVYA BHAVA WHICH WOULD BE HIS

> NATURAL INCLINATION.

 

Above seems to be nothing more than a personal assumption. Please

see trika texts or tantrAloka of abhinavagupta.

 

 

> As regards the srautas following vama rituals, yes there are

> substitutes for 5 Ms and i am aware of them which are called pancha

> adi dravyas. Some of our own relatives follow these things in

Andhra.

> And i have cut off the relations with them. Because, for me they

are

> veda bAhyAs. And we don't allow them in our saha-pankti bhojana.

>

 

They become veda-bAhya-s only if they use forbidden substances.

If some body becomes a veda-bAhya just because they adopted a kaula

ritual then all shrIvidyopAsaka-s(because of its kaula origins),

pA~ncharAtrin-s, saiddhAntika-s etc should be considered veda-bAhya-s.

 

Anyway, not allowing someone in a saha-pankti bhojana will not grant

siddhi nor moxa nor jnana nor bhagavat kripa other than some family

melodrama.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

dear,

 

<<They become veda-bAhya-s only if they use forbidden substances.

If some body becomes a veda-bAhya just because they adopted a kaula

ritual then all shrIvidyopAsaka-s(because of its kaula origins),

pA~ncharAtrin-s, saiddhAntika-s etc should be considered veda-bAhya-

s.>>

 

Pl. refer the 18th sloka of subhagodaya stutih of acharya gaudapada.

The dwijas adopting koula ritual is condemned. Even the misra-achara.

 

regs,

sriram

 

 

, " Satish " <satisharigela wrote:

>

> , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@>

> wrote:

>

>

> > Why would one go for 5 Ms one WHO HAS TOTAL CONTROL OF SENSES,

NO

> > ADDICTION TO ALCOHOL, PARA-STRI VIMUKHATA?

>

> Underlying this question is a false assumption that only people

who

> has teh urge to drink alchohol etc would go for puja with 5Ms.

>

> This assumption is already shown to be false by the quotes from

tArA

> and mahiSha-mardini tantra-s. The are some other tantra-s which

say a

> similar thing. So no point in raising this question again.

>

>

> > This is simply ridiculous!!! The one WHO HAS PERFECT CONTROL OF

> > HIMSELF WOULD NATURALLY PREFER THE DIVYA BHAVA WHICH WOULD BE

HIS

> > NATURAL INCLINATION.

>

> Above seems to be nothing more than a personal assumption. Please

> see trika texts or tantrAloka of abhinavagupta.

>

>

> > As regards the srautas following vama rituals, yes there are

> > substitutes for 5 Ms and i am aware of them which are called

pancha

> > adi dravyas. Some of our own relatives follow these things in

> Andhra.

> > And i have cut off the relations with them. Because, for me they

> are

> > veda bAhyAs. And we don't allow them in our saha-pankti bhojana.

> >

>

> They become veda-bAhya-s only if they use forbidden substances.

> If some body becomes a veda-bAhya just because they adopted a

kaula

> ritual then all shrIvidyopAsaka-s(because of its kaula origins),

> pA~ncharAtrin-s, saiddhAntika-s etc should be considered veda-

bAhya-s.

>

> Anyway, not allowing someone in a saha-pankti bhojana will not

grant

> siddhi nor moxa nor jnana nor bhagavat kripa other than some

family

> melodrama.

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

, " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi

wrote:

 

> Pl. refer the 18th sloka of subhagodaya stutih of acharya

gaudapada.

> The dwijas adopting koula ritual is condemned. Even the misra-

achara.

 

 

We need to look at a proper pramAna like a tantra or some Agama.

Works like subhagodaya stuti or lakShmIdhara's commentary(on SL)

could be colored/biased with personal opinions of their authors.

We do not know if gauDapAda authored this work. Such attribution

(probably by followers of shankara) of works to great teachers like

gauDapAda has become increasingly common despite of the fact that

these teachers had little or nothing to do with shrIvidya.

 

Is any reason mentioned as to why dvija-s adopting a kaula ritual is

condemned? When I say adopt, I meant those dvija-s who do not use

5Ms i.e people who replace alchohol with, say coconut water in copper

vessel or milk or honey etc as per their varNa and those who use two

joined flowers to represent maithuna etc.

 

devI bhAgavathaM says that it is okay to follow tantra-s which are

not opposed to shruti, smriti etc.

 

So what smriti/s are violated by dvija-s who belong to the class

described in para 2 above?

 

Regards

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear satish,

 

Are we smarter enough to decide whether acharya gaudapada /

lakshmidhara are biased or not. Are we " more learned " than these

acharyas.

 

On the face of it, the kaula rituas, per se, are prohibited which

involve duti yaga. Now, why should a dwija should go for kaula

rituals WITH SUBSTITUTIONS AND REPLACEMENTS?

 

regs,

sriram

 

, " Satish " <satisharigela wrote:

>

> , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@>

> wrote:

>

> > Pl. refer the 18th sloka of subhagodaya stutih of acharya

> gaudapada.

> > The dwijas adopting koula ritual is condemned. Even the misra-

> achara.

>

>

> We need to look at a proper pramAna like a tantra or some Agama.

> Works like subhagodaya stuti or lakShmIdhara's commentary(on SL)

> could be colored/biased with personal opinions of their authors.

> We do not know if gauDapAda authored this work. Such attribution

> (probably by followers of shankara) of works to great teachers

like

> gauDapAda has become increasingly common despite of the fact that

> these teachers had little or nothing to do with shrIvidya.

>

> Is any reason mentioned as to why dvija-s adopting a kaula ritual

is

> condemned? When I say adopt, I meant those dvija-s who do not use

> 5Ms i.e people who replace alchohol with, say coconut water in

copper

> vessel or milk or honey etc as per their varNa and those who use

two

> joined flowers to represent maithuna etc.

>

> devI bhAgavathaM says that it is okay to follow tantra-s which are

> not opposed to shruti, smriti etc.

>

> So what smriti/s are violated by dvija-s who belong to the class

> described in para 2 above?

>

> Regards

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

, " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi

wrote:

>

> Dear satish,

>

> Are we smarter enough to decide whether acharya gaudapada /

> lakshmidhara are biased or not. Are we " more learned " than these

> acharyas.

 

These questions come because of inconsistencies in their(I am only

referring to SL bhAShya here) works. This is about some of the

uninformed and sweeping statements of lakShmIdhara makes.

 

The right question that we should ask is not whether we are smarter

or not but why and how did the inconsistencies creep in, and how do

we rectify our current understanding/opinions on some issues in light

of new evidence.

 

 

>

> On the face of it, the kaula rituas, per se, are prohibited which

> involve duti yaga. Now, why should a dwija should go for kaula

> rituals WITH SUBSTITUTIONS AND REPLACEMENTS?

 

What is wrong with dUti yAga as long as it is performed with sva-strI?

See the chapter on prapanchasara which talks about a parallel topic.

The dvija-s who adopted these are not dullards. They adopted these

rituals because of their ritual efficacy and due to thoroughness of

the underlying theory behind the ritual in addition to being superior

to existing systems in other aspects.

 

For now I will stop here.

 

Regards

sa.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Satishji,

 

My best regards to you.

 

You have stated " Such attribution

(probably by followers of shankara) of works to great teachers like

gauDapAda has become increasingly common despite of the fact that

these teachers had little or nothing to do with shrIvidya. " Such a

statement is not acceptable unless proven with reference to the particular

point at hand. I am sure you know that.

 

Anbu

 

[Namaste: Sometime in future i will get into the details of this with

appropriate references. Till then these statments can be taken with a grain of

salt. However, do remember that there are others, including indologists who hold

such an opinion.-Satish]

 

 

On Wed, Oct 22, 2008 at 3:20 AM, Satish <satisharigela wrote:

 

> <%40>, " sriram "

> <sriram_sapthasathi

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear satish,

> >

> > Are we smarter enough to decide whether acharya gaudapada /

> > lakshmidhara are biased or not. Are we " more learned " than these

> > acharyas.

>

> These questions come because of inconsistencies in their(I am only

> referring to SL bhAShya here) works. This is about some of the

> uninformed and sweeping statements of lakShmIdhara makes.

>

> The right question that we should ask is not whether we are smarter

> or not but why and how did the inconsistencies creep in, and how do

> we rectify our current understanding/opinions on some issues in light

> of new evidence.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear satish,

 

<<The dvija-s who adopted these are not dullards. They adopted these

rituals because of their ritual efficacy and due to thoroughness of

the underlying theory behind the ritual in addition to being superior

to existing systems in other aspects>>

 

It is these dvijas and their drive for " ritual efficacy " that bade

them to adopt the kaula rituals. They wanted to walk on the " rosy

path " shown by kaula tantras and at the same time did not want to

lose their identity as dvijas. The result was misra-achara. And they

are hanging like trishanku svarga.

 

AND PERHAPS TO BACKLASH THESE KAULA DWIJAS, WAS THE ADVENT OF OUR

ACHARYA SANKARA.

 

With regards,

sriram

 

, " Satish " <satisharigela wrote:

>

> , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@>

> wrote:

> >

> > Dear satish,

> >

> > Are we smarter enough to decide whether acharya gaudapada /

> > lakshmidhara are biased or not. Are we " more learned " than these

> > acharyas.

>

> These questions come because of inconsistencies in their(I am only

> referring to SL bhAShya here) works. This is about some of the

> uninformed and sweeping statements of lakShmIdhara makes.

>

> The right question that we should ask is not whether we are smarter

> or not but why and how did the inconsistencies creep in, and how do

> we rectify our current understanding/opinions on some issues in

light

> of new evidence.

>

>

> >

> > On the face of it, the kaula rituas, per se, are prohibited which

> > involve duti yaga. Now, why should a dwija should go for kaula

> > rituals WITH SUBSTITUTIONS AND REPLACEMENTS?

>

> What is wrong with dUti yAga as long as it is performed with sva-

strI?

> See the chapter on prapanchasara which talks about a parallel topic.

> The dvija-s who adopted these are not dullards. They adopted these

> rituals because of their ritual efficacy and due to thoroughness of

> the underlying theory behind the ritual in addition to being

superior

> to existing systems in other aspects.

>

> For now I will stop here.

>

> Regards

> sa.

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Substitutions and replacements are done as pratyAmnAya.

So, when makAra-panchaka are available why one should go for

replacements. Which implies that entire ritual with replacement is

also not acceptable by dwijas. And hence it is condemned.

 

regs,

sriram

 

, " Satish " <satisharigela wrote:

>

> , " sriram " <sriram_sapthasathi@>

> wrote:

>

> > Pl. refer the 18th sloka of subhagodaya stutih of acharya

> gaudapada.

> > The dwijas adopting koula ritual is condemned. Even the misra-

> achara.

>

>

> We need to look at a proper pramAna like a tantra or some Agama.

> Works like subhagodaya stuti or lakShmIdhara's commentary(on SL)

> could be colored/biased with personal opinions of their authors.

> We do not know if gauDapAda authored this work. Such attribution

> (probably by followers of shankara) of works to great teachers like

> gauDapAda has become increasingly common despite of the fact that

> these teachers had little or nothing to do with shrIvidya.

>

> Is any reason mentioned as to why dvija-s adopting a kaula ritual

is

> condemned? When I say adopt, I meant those dvija-s who do not use

> 5Ms i.e people who replace alchohol with, say coconut water in

copper

> vessel or milk or honey etc as per their varNa and those who use

two

> joined flowers to represent maithuna etc.

>

> devI bhAgavathaM says that it is okay to follow tantra-s which are

> not opposed to shruti, smriti etc.

>

> So what smriti/s are violated by dvija-s who belong to the class

> described in para 2 above?

>

> Regards

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear Divine,

it is time that we do not waste our time on such arguments. Suppose there is a

upasaka in the north pole what he would eat. He need body heat to preserve.

Kashnmir Uttarakaula is pertinent to the climatic conditions of that place and

why should we condemn or appreciate. Let the upasakas choose the right way they

think right and let us not put our fingers into their mouth and suggesting to

them what is right or wrong.

Regards,

S.SHANGARANARAYANAN

 

 

 

: sriram_sapthasathi: Wed, 22 Oct

2008 11:33:03 +0000 Re: No vama marga for dwijas

 

 

 

 

Substitutions and replacements are done as pratyAmnAya. So, when makAra-panchaka

are available why one should go for replacements. Which implies that entire

ritual with replacement is also not acceptable by dwijas. And hence it is

condemned.regs,sriram--- In

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Shriram- What do you mean by Dvija? Do you mean: 1) Brahmin 2) Varnas

1-3 by birth. 3) Varnas 1-3 by Samskara of Upanayana 4) Varnas 1-3+

some of V4 who have got some type of Upanayana Samskara. 5) Smarta

Brahmins only.

 

Then what do you mean by Vama marga ? 1) Do you mean Vamashaiva who

worship Tumburu with his 4 sisters, I mean Vinashikha tantra etc?. 2)

Do you mean Dakshinashaiva worshiping Svachchhandabhairava. 3)

Bhutashaivas who worship Khadgaravana ? 4) Garudas who worship

Akashabhairava? Or worshipers of 10 Mahavidya-s or 5) All upasakas of

Kaulamarga ?

 

It appears that you imply that Dvijas should only follow the form of

Shrividya advocated by Lakshmidhara and the Shankara Mutt?

 

Perhaps your prescriptions might be limited to a subset of Smartas who

are affiliated with particular Smritis and their tradition.

 

Also consider:

1) kulAmR^itaikarasikA 2)kulasaMketapAlinI 3)kulA~NganA 4) kulAntasthA

5)kaulinI 6) kulayoginI

>akulA

1) samayAntasthA 2) samayAchAratatparA

 

Tradition says this is the teaching of hayagrIva to a dvija agastya.

cheers,

RR

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Dear rajitha madam,

 

I meant smartha brahmana. A smarta taking to leftist path loses his

identity and is prohibited from performing vedic rituals. Because

every vaidika mantra should be replaced with either Tripura Bhairavi

or Bhairava. For example:

 

The achamana is " apah punantu ……tripura bhairavim svaha " . The Vishnu

mantra for karma kanda " idam vishnurvichakrame…… " is replaced with

Bhairava. The offering of udaka is offering with Tripura Bhairavi

ie., " drupadat iva munchatu …..tripura bhairavim " . Gayatri mantra is

suffixed with Tripura Bhairavi. Arghya is offered to surya with " maha

bhairavaya suryaya idam arghyam samarpayami " . The tarpana is " brahma

bhairavam tarpayami " . Pitri tarpanam is " svapitaram bhairavam "

and " tripyatam pitaram bhairavah " . And the rest of the tarpanas

should be done with Bhairava Namavalih.

 

So, the smarta who is doing this sort of upasana IS PROHIBITED FROM

PERFORMING the sandhya anushtana, deva panchayatana, vaisvadeva,

brahma yajna, pancha paka yajna and sapta havir yajnas and kratus.

 

Now, the misra-achara crept in because these smartas took certain

things for granted like soma pana in sautramani, mamsa bhakshana in

vapa yajna and maithuna in one of the kratus. There was a mixture of

these vaidika acharas and kaula tantras among the Smartas and landed

in soup and utter confusion.

 

A KAULA BRAHMANA LOSES HIS KULA & JANMA GOTRA WHICH IS A MUST FOR

VEDIC KARMANUSHTANA.

 

MOREOVER, I HAVE RESERVATIONS AGAINST THE PATRA-STHAPANA AND I WOULD

LAUGH AT THOSE PERSONS WHO ARE USING NAGARA-KHANDA (GINGER) AND OTHER

STUFF WHICH " THEY CONSIDER A VALID SUBSTITUTION FOR MAKARA-

PANCHAKA " .

 

AMONG THE " SHISHTA VAMACHARIS " OF SMARTAS, THERE EVOLVED A BRANCH

WHICH TRIED TO REFORM THE LEFTIST PATH TO SUIT THEIR REQUIREMENTS

(WHO DID NOT WANT TO LOSE THEIR IDENTITY OF BRAHMINS) WHICH APPROVED

THE DUTI YAGA WITH SVA-STRI ETC.

 

I HAVE PRAMANIKA CHAKRA-ARCHANA PADDHATI APART FROM

SIVANANDANATHA'S " SUBHAGODAYA " WHICH PROHIBITS THE USAGE OF PATRA

STHAPANA. EVEN THE SUBHAGODAYA DOES NOT MENTION ABOUT PATRA

STHAPANA.

 

Some of the pramanika srividyopasakas does not include patra-

sthapana. Even the recent stalwarts of Srividya like Shri Tadepalli

Raghavanarayana Shastrigal, Gollapudi Gopalakrishna Shastrigal,

Kuruganti Venkataramana Shastrigal, Shri Himakuntala Atmaramiah, Shri

Sitaramanjaneya Shastrigal (asmat gurunatha) prohibits the usage of

this sthapana.

 

With regards,

sriram

 

, " rajita_rajvasishth "

<rajita_rajvasishth wrote:

>

> Shriram- What do you mean by Dvija? Do you mean: 1) Brahmin 2)

Varnas

> 1-3 by birth. 3) Varnas 1-3 by Samskara of Upanayana 4) Varnas 1-3+

> some of V4 who have got some type of Upanayana Samskara. 5) Smarta

> Brahmins only.

>

> Then what do you mean by Vama marga ? 1) Do you mean Vamashaiva who

> worship Tumburu with his 4 sisters, I mean Vinashikha tantra etc?.

2)

> Do you mean Dakshinashaiva worshiping Svachchhandabhairava. 3)

> Bhutashaivas who worship Khadgaravana ? 4) Garudas who worship

> Akashabhairava? Or worshipers of 10 Mahavidya-s or 5) All upasakas

of

> Kaulamarga ?

>

> It appears that you imply that Dvijas should only follow the form of

> Shrividya advocated by Lakshmidhara and the Shankara Mutt?

>

> Perhaps your prescriptions might be limited to a subset of Smartas

who

> are affiliated with particular Smritis and their tradition.

>

> Also consider:

> 1) kulAmR^itaikarasikA 2)kulasaMketapAlinI 3)kulA~NganA 4)

kulAntasthA

> 5)kaulinI 6) kulayoginI

> >akulA

> 1) samayAntasthA 2) samayAchAratatparA

>

> Tradition says this is the teaching of hayagrIva to a dvija agastya.

> cheers,

> RR

>

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...