Merton, a conversion of a Catholic Monk to Buddhism?

[Guest guest]

| om gurave namah |

Dear Arpad,

 

Collecting in the cell of a monastery some asian sayings, commenting them in accordance with the doctrine of St Augustin and publishing them after the approval of his superiors, all this doesn’t make a trappist monk a follower of lamas he would have met in Tibet on a regular basis, as I could have understand from what you wrote. In fact, Thomas Merton didn’t leave his monastery until 1968 and died this same year as I have already said.

 

Now, your ‘own’ monk could have been a franciscain. Not all franciscains are trappists. I still firmly believe you don’t know what a trappe is. It is also possible that Gethsemani is/was an ersatz of trappe but I doubt.

 

What irritate me is the little case you make of what the vows represent and imply. In fact the vows are the strongest relationship one can have with God. It is like say a marriage but here it is with God. After he had promised strict obedience to the rules of St Augustin, silence and confinment, not to mention the rest, how could a trappist have teach you ...the upanishads, preferably to the Gospel if he really had to teach you something? Above all, he is just not interested in doing that (only God and him) and the world around could collapse, he wouldn’t even hear about it. A trappist can only go out briefly for the burials of his parents, if he wishes.

 

A catholic monk dead to the mundane world teaching the upanishads to the son of a protestant pastor in Hungary during the soviet mid 60’, if I understood the whole story properly, that indeed could make the strongest movie scenario ever.

 

Finally, I was not mocking. Obviously, only few people have read all the 4000 pages but you could have been one of them.

 

Best regards,Pierre

 

 

 

 

Dans un e-mail daté du 07/02/2007 06:53:47 Paris, Madrid, panchasila a écrit :

 

Hare Rama Krishna,

Dear Pierre, Namaskar

 

Let Merton speak for himself:

On October 15, 1968, with Merton aboard, a jetliner lifted off the ground in San Francisco bound for Tokyo and the Asia beyond:

Joy. We left the ground--I with Christian mantras and a great sense of destiny, of being at last on my true way after years of waiting and wondering and fooling around. ... May I not come back without having settled the great affair. And found also the great compassion, mahakaruna… I am going home, to the home where I have never been in this body. (Asian Journal, pages 4-5).

 

Now, to your comments:

 

 

(Pierre)He certainly had no other teachers than the Holy Fathers of the Church.

 

Answer:He did. D.T.Suzuki was his friend and mentor in Zen Buddhism since the early 1950s.

Please check out Merton's "Mystics and Zen Masters". Amazon.com ill be happy to take your order.While you are at it, you may want to read Merton's essays on Taoist philosophy, "The Sayings of Chung Tzu". You will be amazed, what some of these Trappist monks were doing….

 

(Pierre)He certainly did not teach the upanishads to the novices he was in charge.

Answer: I have never stated that Merton taught the Upanishads to the novices. By the way he was retreat Master for a time.

(Pierre)The Journals you are refering to start from 1946, among which the first is prior to his priesthood and the weakest. By the way, did you really read all the 4000 pages he has written?

Answer: Ah my, we are getting personal here….I was referring to the Asian Journals of Tomas Merton.Yes I have read it in full.

 

Let me give you an ultimate "shocker" a direct quotation from Merton, via his friend, the fellow Catholic Monk, Brother David Steindl-Rast:

 

NEAR THE END OF HIS LIFE, the American Christian monk, poet, social critic and mystic, Thomas Merton said that he wanted "to become as good a Buddhist as I can" (Steindl-Rast, 1969).

 

In retrospect, I recommend that you take to heart one of the most appealing and endearing practices of Trappist monks (especially when you are really not sure you know what you are saying):

SILENCE.

 

With deep respect:

A.J.

sohamsa , Poloisel wrote:>> > | om gurave namah |> > Dear Arpad,> > Thomas Merton abridged biography> > 1915 born in France (chart is attached)> .. studies and travels in Europe> 1935 settles in the USA> 1938 he turns himself to catholicism after he met Bramachari in NY !!!> ..> 1941 he enters Gethsemani monastery> 1942 First vows> 1949 Priesthood> ..> May 1968 two-week travel in California (council Vatican II has relaxed the > rules)> Oct 1968 he meets the Dalaï-Lama (2 months before his death)> 11 Dec’68 he died> > He didn't left his monastery for 27 years.> He certainly had no other teachers than the Holy Fathers of the Church.> He certainly did not teach the upanishads to the novices he was in charge.> The Journals you are refering to start from 1946, among which the first is > prior to his priesthood and the weakest. > By the way, did you really read all the 4000 pages he has written?> > I shall end here. I don't know what you were looking for on this list since > your inquiry on Liszt. Maybe you only wanted some people listening to you. In > case there is a real suffering, may I suggest you to approach a guru > privately (Visti Larsen, Swee Chan, Sarbani Sarkar…).> > God bless you.> > Yours,> Pierre> > P.S.> > > Dans un e-mail daté du 06/02/2007 20:10:30 Paris, Madrid, > panchasila a écrit :> > Hare Rama Krishna, > Dear Pierre, Namaskar, > as I usually know what I am saying, I recommend that you READ(!!!) Merton's > journals-and you will find that AFTER taking vows and AFTER living the life of > the monk at Getshemany Abbey in a small town called St. Mary,Kentucky, USA > (Which I also visited), HE HAS MET HIS TEACHER a Tibetan Lama by the name of > Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, and with the permission of his superiors in the > Abbey, he has even travelled to the orient where he has met MANY other Buddhist > teachers. > By the way, he has remained a Trappist monk ALL the time! > Please,Please, before you state something- make sure you KNOW what you are > talking about! > Take the trouble and READ Merton's own words. > With deep respect: > A.J.> sohamsa , Poloisel@ wrote:> >> > > > | om gurave namah |> > > > Dear Arpad,> > > > Merton met Brahmacharia before his vows as a trappist. Do you know what a â> €˜ > > Trappe ’ is? So please don’t say there has been somewhere at any > time a > > trappist monk teaching the upanishads... I am afraid you are mixing a lot > of > > things.> > > > Yours,> > Pierre> > > > > > Dans un e-mail daté du 06/02/2007 18:44:56 Paris, Madrid, > > panchasila@ a écrit :> > > > Hare Rama Krishna, > > Dear Pierre, Namaskar > > that is exactly how it was. Actually the truth is sometimes stranger than > > fiction. > > This Tappist monk also lived in Egypt (in the 1930s)and studied with the > > sufis there for at least 2 years. At the time of our meeting he was > already a > > very old man. As the communist took over the country-as they ALWAYS DO- > started > > destroying religious orders,persecuting, imprisoning and executing a lot > of > > monks, nuns etc.,disbanding the orders,my Trappist monk found himself on > the > > street (I think he may have been imprisoned also in the 1950s) and as he > had > > 2 different PhDs he supported himself by teaching Latin,Italian and a host > of > > other languages.All the while he has kept faithfully to his Trappist vows. > > I remember well, the very first book he gave me was Swami Sivananda's > work. > > But why are you so suprised? Another-really well known Trappist monk, > Thomas > > Merton-studied with Tibetan Buddhists. Read his journals. > > To make these things even more interesting, my own father was a christian > > priest, with a large congregation. He has NEVER discouraged me from my > > studies,on the contrary, he was always very helpful and respectful of my > decisions. > > At the age of 15 I ave started on my regular astrological lessons (which > > meant also copying by hand the entire textbook!)- and my father supported > me all > > the way through. > > I realise that it is unusual, but sometimes life is VERY unusual. > > With deep respect > > A.J.> > sohamsa , Poloisel@ wrote:> > >> > > > > > | om gurave namah |> > > > > > Dear Arpad,> > > > > > A trappist monk being a follower of the Maharishi and teaching the > > > Upanishads to a young boy, that is just not possible. > > > > > > Yours,> > > Pierre> > > > > > > > > Dans un e-mail daté du 06/02/2007 15:21:13 Paris, Madrid, > > > panchasila@ a écrit :> > > > > > Hare. Rama Krishna,> > > > > > Dear Sarbani, Namaskar,> > > > > > the facts are very simple. No mystery here. In Hungary, I have come> > > under the influence of a Roman Catholic monk, who was also a linguist.He> > > insisted on me studying the Upanishas (Katopanishad was his> > > favourite),The Gita and Patanjali. In fact he encouraged me (us) to> > > memorise the Yoga Sutras in Sanskrit.He was often saying: " my boy,> > > until you know something by heart, you don't know it".> > > As he was a Trappist Monk (these people do not talk much, spending most> > > of their life in silence), he was VERY strict. (He was a very curious> > > Catholic Monk- a follower of Ramana Maharishi).Under his> > > advice,direction and care I have embraced Sanathana Dharma. I was 16> > > years old at the time. I am a follower of Sanatha Dharma ever since.> > > > > > If you are really curious, I will correspond with you in private.> > > > > > By the way, we have met briefly in Singapore a few years back. I am> > > known here (in the Indian community) as well as some circles in> > > Haridwar/Rishikesh as Jyotishwar.This is what I was called by my> > > teacher.> > > > > > With deep respect> > > > > > > > > > > > A.> > >

 

 

[Guest guest]

Hare Rama Krishna,

Dear Pierre, Namaskar

 

Let Merton speak for himself:

On October 15, 1968, with Merton aboard, a jetliner lifted off the ground in San Francisco bound for Tokyo and the Asia beyond:

Joy. We left the ground--I with Christian mantras and a great sense of destiny, of being at last on my true way after years of waiting and wondering and fooling around. ... May I not come back without having settled the great affair. And found also the great compassion, mahakaruna… I am going home, to the home where I have never been in this body. (Asian Journal, pages 4-5).

 

Now, to your comments:

 

 

(Pierre)He certainly had no other teachers than the Holy Fathers of the Church.

 

Answer:He did. D.T.Suzuki was his friend and mentor in Zen Buddhism since the early 1950s.

Please check out Merton's "Mystics and Zen Masters". Amazon.com ill be happy to take your order.While you are at it, you may want to read Merton's essays on Taoist philosophy, "The Sayings of Chung Tzu". You will be amazed, what some of these Trappist monks were doing….

 

(Pierre)He certainly did not teach the upanishads to the novices he was in charge.

Answer: I have never stated that Merton taught the Upanishads to the novices. By the way he was retreat Master for a time.

(Pierre)The Journals you are refering to start from 1946, among which the first is prior to his priesthood and the weakest. By the way, did you really read all the 4000 pages he has written?

Answer: Ah my, we are getting personal here….I was referring to the Asian Journals of Tomas Merton.Yes I have read it in full.

 

Let me give you an ultimate "shocker" a direct quotation from Merton, via his friend, the fellow Catholic Monk, Brother David Steindl-Rast:

 

NEAR THE END OF HIS LIFE, the American Christian monk, poet, social critic and mystic, Thomas Merton said that he wanted "to become as good a Buddhist as I can" (Steindl-Rast, 1969).

 

In retrospect, I recommend that you take to heart one of the most appealing and endearing practices of Trappist monks (especially when you are really not sure you know what you are saying):

SILENCE.

 

With deep respect:

A.J.

sohamsa , Poloisel wrote:>> > | om gurave namah |> > Dear Arpad,> > Thomas Merton abridged biography> > 1915 born in France (chart is attached)> .. studies and travels in Europe> 1935 settles in the USA> 1938 he turns himself to catholicism after he met Bramachari in NY !!!> ..> 1941 he enters Gethsemani monastery> 1942 First vows> 1949 Priesthood> ..> May 1968 two-week travel in California (council Vatican II has relaxed the > rules)> Oct 1968 he meets the Dalaï-Lama (2 months before his death)> 11 Dec’68 he died> > He didn't left his monastery for 27 years.> He certainly had no other teachers than the Holy Fathers of the Church.> He certainly did not teach the upanishads to the novices he was in charge.> The Journals you are refering to start from 1946, among which the first is > prior to his priesthood and the weakest. > By the way, did you really read all the 4000 pages he has written?> > I shall end here. I don't know what you were looking for on this list since > your inquiry on Liszt. Maybe you only wanted some people listening to you. In > case there is a real suffering, may I suggest you to approach a guru > privately (Visti Larsen, Swee Chan, Sarbani Sarkar…).> > God bless you.> > Yours,> Pierre> > P.S.> > > Dans un e-mail daté du 06/02/2007 20:10:30 Paris, Madrid, > panchasila a écrit :> > Hare Rama Krishna, > Dear Pierre, Namaskar, > as I usually know what I am saying, I recommend that you READ(!!!) Merton's > journals-and you will find that AFTER taking vows and AFTER living the life of > the monk at Getshemany Abbey in a small town called St. Mary,Kentucky, USA > (Which I also visited), HE HAS MET HIS TEACHER a Tibetan Lama by the name of > Chogyam Trungpa Rinpoche, and with the permission of his superiors in the > Abbey, he has even travelled to the orient where he has met MANY other Buddhist > teachers. > By the way, he has remained a Trappist monk ALL the time! > Please,Please, before you state something- make sure you KNOW what you are > talking about! > Take the trouble and READ Merton's own words. > With deep respect: > A.J.> sohamsa , Poloisel@ wrote:> >> > > > | om gurave namah |> > > > Dear Arpad,> > > > Merton met Brahmacharia before his vows as a trappist. Do you know what a â> €˜ > > Trappe ’ is? So please don’t say there has been somewhere at any > time a > > trappist monk teaching the upanishads... I am afraid you are mixing a lot > of > > things.> > > > Yours,> > Pierre> > > > > > Dans un e-mail daté du 06/02/2007 18:44:56 Paris, Madrid, > > panchasila@ a écrit :> > > > Hare Rama Krishna, > > Dear Pierre, Namaskar > > that is exactly how it was. Actually the truth is sometimes stranger than > > fiction. > > This Tappist monk also lived in Egypt (in the 1930s)and studied with the > > sufis there for at least 2 years. At the time of our meeting he was > already a > > very old man. As the communist took over the country-as they ALWAYS DO- > started > > destroying religious orders,persecuting, imprisoning and executing a lot > of > > monks, nuns etc.,disbanding the orders,my Trappist monk found himself on > the > > street (I think he may have been imprisoned also in the 1950s) and as he > had > > 2 different PhDs he supported himself by teaching Latin,Italian and a host > of > > other languages.All the while he has kept faithfully to his Trappist vows. > > I remember well, the very first book he gave me was Swami Sivananda's > work. > > But why are you so suprised? Another-really well known Trappist monk, > Thomas > > Merton-studied with Tibetan Buddhists. Read his journals. > > To make these things even more interesting, my own father was a christian > > priest, with a large congregation. He has NEVER discouraged me from my > > studies,on the contrary, he was always very helpful and respectful of my > decisions. > > At the age of 15 I ave started on my regular astrological lessons (which > > meant also copying by hand the entire textbook!)- and my father supported > me all > > the way through. > > I realise that it is unusual, but sometimes life is VERY unusual. > > With deep respect > > A.J.> > sohamsa , Poloisel@ wrote:> > >> > > > > > | om gurave namah |> > > > > > Dear Arpad,> > > > > > A trappist monk being a follower of the Maharishi and teaching the > > > Upanishads to a young boy, that is just not possible. > > > > > > Yours,> > > Pierre> > > > > > > > > Dans un e-mail daté du 06/02/2007 15:21:13 Paris, Madrid, > > > panchasila@ a écrit :> > > > > > Hare. Rama Krishna,> > > > > > Dear Sarbani, Namaskar,> > > > > > the facts are very simple. No mystery here. In Hungary, I have come> > > under the influence of a Roman Catholic monk, who was also a linguist.He> > > insisted on me studying the Upanishas (Katopanishad was his> > > favourite),The Gita and Patanjali. In fact he encouraged me (us) to> > > memorise the Yoga Sutras in Sanskrit.He was often saying: " my boy,> > > until you know something by heart, you don't know it".> > > As he was a Trappist Monk (these people do not talk much, spending most> > > of their life in silence), he was VERY strict. (He was a very curious> > > Catholic Monk- a follower of Ramana Maharishi).Under his> > > advice,direction and care I have embraced Sanathana Dharma. I was 16> > > years old at the time. I am a follower of Sanatha Dharma ever since.> > > > > > If you are really curious, I will correspond with you in private.> > > > > > By the way, we have met briefly in Singapore a few years back. I am> > > known here (in the Indian community) as well as some circles in> > > Haridwar/Rishikesh as Jyotishwar.This is what I was called by my> > > teacher.> > > > > > With deep respect> > > > > > > > > > > > A.> > >> >>