Jump to content
IndiaDivine.org

Samputa, Devotion, Pronunciation and Veda

Rate this topic


Guest guest

Recommended Posts

Guest guest

Dear Ajit,

 

> Explaining my limited understanding furthur, I believe there are two> possibilities. (1) where the samputa is recited as part of the mantra> proper, and thus, changes the mantra's chandas. For example, panchakshari> vs. shadakshari (2) where a pause is given between the recitation of the

> samputa and the mantra-proper, and thus, the chandas of the mantra remains> unchanged. For example, the recitation of the savitur mantra in south india,> where the chandas for each set of samputas is separately known, and where a> definite pause is given between the samputas and the mantra-proper.

I know people who actually use more intrusive samputas. For example, you can have a prefix, then the two padas of a Gayatri/Anushtup verse, then another "midfix", then the remaining 1 or 2 padas of the mantra and finally the suffix. After all, if you go back to my analogy from yesterday, why can't a bowl used for placing rice have a big spike/handle in the middle of it? If so, will the tall spike in the middle of the bowl become part of rice?

 

Using a pause to demarcate is good. But pause does not necessarily mean a samputa-mantra boundary. There can be pauses within the mantra too. For example, in a Gayatri, there can be a pause before the third pada.

 

Now, if we have a chanting that contains 3 or 4 or 5 pieces separated by pauses, how do we know which pieces belong to the samputa (container) and which pieces belong to the mantra?

 

To answer this, let me go back to yesterday's analogy. If you put rice in a bowl and offer it to a guest, how will he know what is rice and what is bowl? How do we make sure that the guest eats only rice and does not end up eating the bowl instead? :-) Do we put labels on rice and bowl so that the guest knows?

 

Of course, if the guest is intelligent enough, he will know without labels.

 

Isn't the devata accepting your mantra as intelligent?

 

Another case: I may place an ice cream in an edible ice cream cone and offer it to a guest. He may choose to treat the cone as part of ice cream and eat it or treat it as a mere container and leave it without eating. If I chant "Om Namassivaya", Shiva may treat Om as the samputa and Namassivaya as the mantra or the entire thing as the six-lettered mantra. Why don't I just leave it to Shiva?

 

As long as I am offering a good food in a clean container with a pure heart, my guest will be happy and enjoy the food. If there are any choices to make, I'd rather leave the freedom to the guest. Of course, some guests may sense my intention and follow it in making the choices.

 

Same thing with mantras. The samputa, as the literal meaning of the word suggests, is the container/bowl. Mantra is the food offered. And deity is the guest receiving the offering.

 

* * *

 

> other is that narasima has hummed the mantra and thus violated the > word given to his guru. here too i appreciate narasimha for his > REPEATED CLARIFICATION IN ALL MAILS that his intent is to spread the

Actually, my guru explicitly permitted me to record the humming and give it. Just for the record, it was NOT a humming of the mantra. It was a humming of the tune that captures the changing accents/intonation to be used in chanting the actual mantra.

 

* * *

 

Regarding the roles of pronunciation and devotion, our views are not entirely different, but there are subtle differences when it comes to Vedic mantras.

 

 

> too much > emphasis in saying that only one intonation is correct and others > are wrong will defeat the very purpose of mantras. after all > shraddha is primary and intonation is secondary.

 

Shraddha (devotion) is certainly important. But, if that is all, we don't need any specific mantras such as Gayatri! We can just repeat "I bow to the all-pervading supreme soul of this universe" or something like that.

 

In fact, if one has utmost devotion, that may work too! Why not?

 

However, Vedas contain some specific mantras that were tested by maharshis for their fast and efficient working. If one has perfect devotion and full control over mind, there is no need for a mantra actually. Mantras are for those who do not have full control over mind and want it. Mantras such as Gayatri slowly bring control over mind and slowly increase devotion.

 

If you pronounce a Vedic mantra incorrectly, you are not taking advantage of the wisdom of maharshis. If you pronounce it arbitrarily, but with great devotion, you will still get results. I don't dispute that at all. But, to me, the fact that maharshis took great care in passing down the mantras, along with very specific and rigorous teachings on how to pronunce them, means that there is value in it. Basically, how they impact various chakras and nadis in the subtle body is well-understood and well-tested.

 

If one definitely cannot get the correct intonation, it will be great if they atleast chant it somehow or the other. Doing it somehow is better than not doing it at all. But, I firmly believe that chanting Gayatri with the correct intonation gives tremendous results and that too quite fast. Correct pronunciation does not *compete* with devotion or *replace* it. Instead, it supplements it. When devotion is also there, correct pronunciation gives results fast, especially with mantras from Veda.

 

When one cannot get the intonation right, the best thing according to shastras is to read the Vedic mantras with a uniform pitch in ekasruti (rather than singing with a random changes in pitch). > all mantra and > all suktams are chanted in varying accents (intonations) in the > north, in the east, in the south and in the west. no one shall > criticise the others pronounciation as wrong. if a south indian > listens to the suktams chanted in kashi, he would not understand but > he must not criticise them.

 

The intonation rules of Rigveda are pretty standard across India. In fact, there are very specific teachings on intonation that have been kept intact for millennia. If you find two scholars who studied at Veda Pathasalas in different parts of India, you will hear only minor differences in intonation. Of course, when non-Vedic stotras and prayers are read, there are bigger differences.

 

> if lord ram is > pronounced as ram in the north, as raman, ramam, rama and ramu in > the four southern states in four different ways, there is no harm. > even lord subrahmanya is prnounced in four different ways like > subrahmanya, subrahmanyam, subramaniam, subramanian. are the four > southern states finding fault with each other in these distortions. > NO.

 

However, there are no such confusions as far as Veda mantras go. Different corruptions in Sanskrit have come up in different parts of India in the last few millennia and no part of India is perfect. But, the Vedas and the intonation rules have been preserved quite well.

 

Bottomline: I am not fully disagreeing with you regarding devotion. Devotion is certainly important and also sufficient for getting *any* result. But it may take time. On the other hand, japa of mantras from Veda with near-correct pronunciation can give results *faster*.

 

Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,

 

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

| om gurave namah |Dear Narasimha

 

1. That is nothng compared to the ghana patha for the gayatri. You have the book from the RK mission so you can see it there.

2. You can share [always have that option :) ]that perfect intonation of yours by sending the gayatri mps itself.

3. It is 'om namah shivaaya' and not 'om namasshivaya'. This is your correction and you should say so.

4. Shiva as mantra devata accepts any of the following namah mantras

namah shivaaya

om namah shivaaya

kliM namah shivaaya

hrauM namah shivaaya

om hriM namah shivaaya

om namah shivaaya shaantaaya

 

.....I can go ahead and type a few hundred at least

Point is that they are not the same in what we seek from Shiva. That is mantra shastra, else acording to you, the shastra is wrong.

 

5. Of course you can and should leave everything to Shiva and let Him decide, but don't say that they have the same meaning in Mantra Shastra. In fact why even say 'Om namah shivaaya' just chant 'Shivoham' constantly and leave the rest to Him. That is Bhakti and not Shastra.

Best wishes and warm regards,Sanjay RathPersonal: WebPages ¡ü Rath¡Çs Rhapsody SJC WebPages: Sri Jagannath Center ¡ü SJCERC ¡ü JIVAPublications: The Jyotish Digest ¡ü Sagittarius Publications----

 

 

 

 

sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of Narasimha P.V.R. RaoSaturday, July 08, 2006 5:31 AM ; sohamsa ; vedic astrology Cc: sjcBoston Subject: Samputa, Devotion, Pronunciation and Veda

 

Dear Ajit,

 

> Explaining my limited understanding furthur, I believe there are two> possibilities. (1) where the samputa is recited as part of the mantra> proper, and thus, changes the mantra's chandas. For example, panchakshari> vs. shadakshari (2) where a pause is given between the recitation of the

> samputa and the mantra-proper, and thus, the chandas of the mantra remains> unchanged. For example, the recitation of the savitur mantra in south india,> where the chandas for each set of samputas is separately known, and where a> definite pause is given between the samputas and the mantra-proper.

I know people who actually use more intrusive samputas. For example, you can have a prefix, then the two padas of a Gayatri/Anushtup verse, then another "midfix", then the remaining 1 or 2 padas of the mantra and finally the suffix. After all, if you go back to my analogy from yesterday, why can't a bowl used for placing rice have a big spike/handle in the middle of it? If so, will the tall spike in the middle of the bowl become part of rice?

 

Using a pause to demarcate is good. But pause does not necessarily mean a samputa-mantra boundary. There can be pauses within the mantra too. For example, in a Gayatri, there can be a pause before the third pada.

 

Now, if we have a chanting that contains 3 or 4 or 5 pieces separated by pauses, how do we know which pieces belong to the samputa (container) and which pieces belong to the mantra?

 

To answer this, let me go back to yesterday's analogy. If you put rice in a bowl and offer it to a guest, how will he know what is rice and what is bowl? How do we make sure that the guest eats only rice and does not end up eating the bowl instead? :-) Do we put labels on rice and bowl so that the guest knows?

 

Of course, if the guest is intelligent enough, he will know without labels.

 

Isn't the devata accepting your mantra as intelligent?

 

Another case: I may place an ice cream in an edible ice cream cone and offer it to a guest. He may choose to treat the cone as part of ice cream and eat it or treat it as a mere container and leave it without eating. If I chant "Om Namassivaya", Shiva may treat Om as the samputa and Namassivaya as the mantra or the entire thing as the six-lettered mantra. Why don't I just leave it to Shiva?

 

As long as I am offering a good food in a clean container with a pure heart, my guest will be happy and enjoy the food. If there are any choices to make, I'd rather leave the freedom to the guest. Of course, some guests may sense my intention and follow it in making the choices.

 

Same thing with mantras. The samputa, as the literal meaning of the word suggests, is the container/bowl. Mantra is the food offered. And deity is the guest receiving the offering.

 

 

 

avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean.

Virus Database (VPS): 0627-3, 07/07/2006Tested on: 7/8/2006 7:43:12 PMavast! - copyright © 1988-2006 ALWIL Software.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Dear Narasimha,

 

> I know people who actually use more intrusive samputas.

 

But do any of these traditions claim they are performing japa of the same

mantra in the same chandas? In nitya brahma yagna, we use " intrusive

samputas " , but initially, we are only performing japa of 'each pada', until

the last recitation when the mantra is said in its entirely. i.e. the

initial recitations are not recitations of the actual savitur mantra.

 

Similarly, there are mantras which interprerse padas of mantras in gayatri

chandas inside padas of mantras in anushtup chandas. Again, in the limited

examples I have seen, it is said to be a new mantra altogether, and one is

not taken to be the samputa of the other.

 

Do you know of any concrete examples, where tradition states that the

rishi-chandas-devata of a mantra with intrusive samputas is taken to be the

same as the rishi-chandas-devata of a mantra without intrusive samputas?

 

> Now, if we have a chanting that contains 3 or 4 or 5 pieces separated

> by pauses, how do we know which pieces belong to the samputa

> (container) and which pieces belong to the mantra?

 

Because, we recite the rishi-chandas-nyasa for each inidivual samputa, and

then recite the rishi-chandas-nyasa for the mantra proper. Only then do we

perform the actual japa. Thus, the demarcation is crystal clear. The pause

only helps form this distinction in the mind of the sadhaka, at the mental

level.

 

> Of course, if the guest is intelligent enough,

> he will know without labels.

 

The " guest is intelligent " argument allows one to conclude whatever he

wants. Since the guest is intelligent, you need not pray in sanskrit at all,

since the guest knows the object of the prayer.

 

Why are vedic rituals so precise? Isn't the devata intelligent?

 

> Isn't the devata accepting your mantra as intelligent?

 

Sure, and this is also a problem. He very carefully interprets your actions

as per his wishes (which is your karma). He very carefully tries to dissuade

you from your course of action and dissuade you while testing you. He very

carefully interprets your words and swaras to his advantage. We have

examples of this in scripture.

 

> If I chant " Om Namassivaya " , Shiva may treat Om as the samputa

> and Namassivaya as the mantra or the entire thing as the

> six-lettered mantra. Why don't I just leave it to Shiva?

 

Because you _chose_ the mantra for some reason. Why choose Shiva? Why not

let him choose you, and take your everyday actions to be your mantra? Why

perform sadhana at all, when an intelligent devata would know that 'you want

to perform sadhana?'.

 

ajit

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

*|| OM MAHAGANAPATAYE NAMAH ||* Dear Sarva Shri sanjay and Narsimha,

Both of you deserve great appreciation for bringing topic

of pronunciation of Gayatri on group.Guru shiysa were involved in ocean churning and nectar has flowed once again from discussion.

For my listening one more MP3 is added " original Gyatri sung by

Originator of Gyatri praivar from their website."

I am convinced Gyatri is a prasiddha mahamantra can be sung with devotion by any one for good as it is a most holy prayer of course With vyaahuti.It is for world and without vyaahuti ,It is for sacred inner sadhana aimed at ones own spiritual upliftment the better if one is initiated .

As far as pronunciation is concerned ,Intonation as taught by someone

competent is fine but being a prayer a prayful heart is vital.

Please correct if My understanding is incorrect.

|| May all people be happy ||OM TAT SATR.C.Srivastava .swami_rcs mob 9412268768http://www.cosmograce.comhttp://www.cosmograce.blogspot.com

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Dear Mr. Srivastava, Sir, You have pulled the right cord. 1.In mantra japa ,devotion is prime-factor, when you are praying.Lord only knows language of love. 2. When you wish some-thing from Devta Vidhi is the main factor. 3. IN both cases the ASTHA AND SHRADHA SHOULD BE STRONG AND UNWAVERING. Regards, G.K.GOEL"R.C.Srivastava" <swami_rcs wrote: *|| OM MAHAGANAPATAYE NAMAH ||* Dear Sarva Shri sanjay and Narsimha, Both of you deserve great appreciation for bringing topic of pronunciation of Gayatri on group.Guru shiysa were involved in ocean churning and nectar has flowed once again from discussion. For my listening one more MP3 is added " original Gyatri sung by Originator of Gyatri praivar from their website." I am convinced Gyatri is a prasiddha mahamantra can be sung with devotion by any one for good as it is a most holy prayer of course With vyaahuti.It is for world and without vyaahuti ,It is for sacred inner sadhana aimed at ones own spiritual

upliftment the better if one is initiated . As far as pronunciation is concerned ,Intonation as taught by someone competent is fine but being a prayer a prayful heart is vital. Please correct if My understanding is incorrect. || May all people be happy ||OM TAT SATR.C.Srivastava .swami_rcs mob 9412268768http://www.cosmograce.comhttp://www.cosmograce.blogspot.com

Find out what India is talking about on Answers India. So, what’s NEW about the NEW Messenger? Find out.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Guest guest

Vyam Vyasadevaya Namah.

Dear sanjay ji,

Nameste,I heard intently your lecture on Gyatri.

You have wonderful clarity in teaching.This lecture

is highly convincing and is able to answer some of doubts i had.It is an

eye opener to many .

One thought is only bothering me, You say if one is asked to recite Gyatri

by a teacher say on loudspeaker it is as good as initiation.If i get it

right how it could be same as initiation by one who is saint or sadhak

himself and not a just teacher( without being sadhak)

In such a deeksha from where shakti beeja will be implanted a condition of

Deeksha.

In my case my Deeksha Guru took a long time to decide to impart deeksha to

me in fact he avoided it after careful consideration only he agreed. BTW he

choose different mantra for me.

Please answer if you find time as it is not a very significant

question.I asked because commonly many teachers ask Gyatri with Brihaspati

samputa and almost none without it.

I understand you agree Gyatri is not to be recited with Samput if one is

not initiated properly.

Hari Om Tatsat

----------------------

Swami Daivyaga( R.C.Srivastava)

Consulting Astrologer.

http://www.cosmograce.com

http://www.cosmograce.blogspot.com.

Mob 91- 9412268768

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Loading...
×
×
  • Create New...