Shabda and mantra (Kavachas...Mental Chanting)

June 25, 2006

Dear Chandrashekhar ji,

Unfortunately, I am not an erudite scholar who can quote scriptures. I just gather a little knowledge by listening to learned people and reading this and that. And, I share that little knowledge with others with great abandon. I do not want to pretend to have read all the scriptures or to remember the source of all my knowledge.

However, the four-fold division I mentioned (para, pasyanti, madhyama and vaikhari) is supposed to be mentioned in RigVeda and several Upanishats. One specific Upanishad I heard is "Yoga-Kundalini Upanishad", which is a minor upanishad. Even Ganapathyatharva Seersham (aka Ganeshopanishat) refers to the four-fold division of sound when it says "tvam chatvaari vaak" (meaning: Ganesha, the 4 types of sound are made of you).

Mother Lalita's 1000 names also extol that she takes the form of Para, Pasyanti, Madhyama and Vaikhari sounds.

My impression is that this division is a fundamental concept that must have been mentioned in multiple places in scriptures. Unfortunately, I cannot give specific references due to my limited knowledge.

Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

------------------------------- > Dear Narasimha,> > Thank you for the illuminating information on various types of > vibrations related to mantra japa. If you do not mind I would like to > read the scriptures that mention these four divisions of vibrations/ > mantras. Could you therefore point me to the relevant scripture?> > Chandrashekhar.> > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao wrote:> >> > Dear Chandrashekhar ji,> >> > Thank you for the info.> >> > Though, obviously they are are linked, I want to distinguish between > > the two divisions.> >> > The division you mentioned is about how one chants. One can chant in > > one of the three styles.> >> > The division I mentioned is about various levels of vibrations caused > > when we chant. Vibrations can be caused in the matter belonging to the > > sthoola sareera (gross body), sookshma sareera (subtle body), kaarana > > sareera (causal body) or mahaakaarana sareera (the aakasa tattva body > > of the entire universe). When someone chants loud, there is vaikhari > > (vibration in the matter belonging to the gross level of existence), > > but it does not mean there is no madhyama (vibrations in the matter > > belonging to the subtle level of existence, i.e. matter of sookshma > > sareera).> >> > These four levels of body capture different levels of maya. At the > > subtlest level of maya, there only is one mahaakaarana sareera that > > stores all the memories, experiences and karmas of the entire > > universe. At a lower level of maya, there are kaarana sareeras (causal > > bodies) of all the beings. At an even lower level of maya, there are > > sookshma sareeras (subtle bodies) of all beings. At the > > lowest/grossest level of maya, there are sthoola sareeras (gross > > bodies) of all beings.> >> > Chanting of any mantra in any of the three levels mentioned by you can > > cause vibrations (of different intensities) in the four levels of maya.> >> > Often, awareness of the subtlest levels of our existence requires us > > to shut down the awareness of the grosser levels of our existence. > > Thus, loud chanting that channels more energy into vaikhari level of > > vibration and can obstruct us from awareness of other levels of > > existence and channeling more energy into them. However, when an > > advanced Yogi or a Maharshi chants a mantra even loud, a lot of energy > > may still be being channeled into the subtler levels of vibration, > > along with vaikhari.> >> > When a great maharshi chants a mantra internally, with full awareness > > of the mahaakaarana sareera, it can cause vibrations in the matter > > belonging to the mahaakaarana sareera (which may not be perceptible to > > ears) and thus impact every being in the universe. It all depends on > > what kind of vibrations (and how intense) are caused.> >> > Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,> > Narasimha> > -------------------------> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > <http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net>> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > <http://www.VedicAstrologer.org>> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > <http://www.SriJagannath.org>> > -------------------------> >> > > Dear Narasimha/Krishna,> > >> > > Ling Purana says " pranavasya tridha smritiH" It mentions Vachika,> > > Mukhya/Manas and Upaanshu as the three types of mantra japas that are> > > one greater than other in ascending order. Does the 4 fold division> > > division indicated by you have anything to do with this?> > > Chandrashekhar.> > >> > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Krishna,> > > >> > > > Fantastic question and I am glad you asked!> > > >> > > > The Sanskrit word for sound is "shabda". However, the concept of> > > > shabda is far more subtle than the modern definition of sound. The> > > > modern definition of sound is a vibration of the gross matter that is> > > > meant to be "heard" by the ears. We put too much emphasis on the> > > > external senses, which can only perceive the gross matter of this> > > > universe. In the Hindu philosophy, the gross matter is just a small> > > > part of the universe and there is something subtle behind everything> > > > gross and it cannot be perceived by the external senses.> > > >> > > > In Hindu philosophy, any shabda manifests at 4 different levels -> > > > para, pashyanti, madhyama and vaikhari. Of these, para is the > > subtlest> > > > level and vaikhari is the grossest level. The vaikhari level of a> > > > shabda manifests grossly (through vibration of gross matter) and one> > > > can hear it with normal sense organs (ears). The subtler levels of a> > > > shabda manifest as vibration of subtler levels of matter and they> > > > cannot be heard by ears.> > > >> > > > The vaikhari level of shabda is audible only for small distances. The> > > > para level of a shabda I make when I say a mantra can be perceived by> > > > an advanced yogi who may be thousands of miles away! Thus, grosser> > > > levels are easier to hear but have space and time limitations, > > whereas> > > > subtler levels are more difficult to hear but have no space and time> > > > limitations.> > > >> > > > If you say a mantra, it is true that the result of the mantra is> > > > through the shabda brahma or sound/vibration energy. But don't be> > > > under the false impression that we are talking about vibration of> > > > gross matter near you. That is far less significant to have any> > > > considerable impact. On the other hand, at the subtlest level, the> > > > entire universe is within you and you can cause vibrations on the> > > > super-subtle matter of the mahakarana sareera and THAT can have> > > > tremendous impact on the entire universe.> > > >> > > > The goal of a sadhaka is to create more energy at the subtler levels> > > > of the shabda when saying mantras. It is not easy. But, limiting the> > > > energy *wasted* on creating the vaikhari level of shabda is a good> > > > starting point!> > > >> > > > I hope it is a little clearer now...> > > >> > > > Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,> > > > Narasimha> > > >> > > > > Dear Narasimha,> > > > >> > > > > I have a basic doubt. We say that the effet of mantras> > > > > is caused by the vibration they generate (or due to> > > > > the sound energy). And yet we say that the mantras are> > > > > less effective when chanted lound.> > > > >> > > > > Why is this?> > > > >> > > > > Please clarify.> > > > >> > > > > Regards,> > > > > Krishna

June 25, 2006

Om Brihaspataye Namah

Dear Narasimha and Chandrasheker,

Thankyou for writing on the 4 steps of Para, Pashanti , Madhyama and Vaikari.

We have had material on this from Shankaracharya Shantananda Saraswati and also

in some sanskrit texts. Unfourtunately I am still in Serbia so do not have this

at hand, to share.

What I remember is that all sound originates in Para. the navel area. It rises

to Pashanti,the area of the heart,seat of emotion/connection in quality, where

it is like being at the crossroads, where it receives the colour of the ego or

continues clean to Madyama, the back of the throat and Vaikari in the mouth.By

the time it reaches Vaikari there is much more chance of 'colour'.

When we speak to people the further back the awareness of the origin of sound,

the purer the sound. A few days back I gave my first talk ever on jyotish

research, here in Serbia.

Because of many things my preparation was light and was not as much as it could

have been, the topic was deep, including rasa's and nakshatra drishti. I

wondered if there was enough to cover for the 'on to it 'Serbians, enough

material to talk about!! Maybe it was the complete generosity of spirit by the

keen Serbian jyotish students, but somehow there was a real connection in the

heart, in pashanti, and many commented afterwards that they found themselves

meditating when I spoke. As the speaker all I noticed was the attention in the

audience and the clarity of the listening, and it felt that it was almost not

Rosemary speaking. The fact that the paper did not present much in intellectual

information did not seem to matter for some, as there was nourishment in a

deeper realm. Rasa works at this level, and it struck me when I witnessed this ,

that the dictim : " Words mean what they do " was so true!

I shall ask Gordon Brennan tommorrow and see if he can add to this.

Greetings from sunny hot and happy Serbia!

kindest regards

Rosemary

>

>>

> " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr

> 2006/06/26 Mon AM 08:03:17 GMT+12:00

> <vedic astrology >, <sohamsa >,

> , <sjcBoston >

> Shabda and mantra (Re: Kavachas...Mental Chanting)

>

> Dear Chandrashekhar ji,

>

> Unfortunately, I am not an erudite scholar who can quote scriptures. I just

gather a little knowledge by listening to learned people and reading this and

that. And, I share that little knowledge with others with great abandon. I do

not want to pretend to have read all the scriptures or to remember the source of

all my knowledge.

>

> However, the four-fold division I mentioned (para, pasyanti, madhyama and

vaikhari) is supposed to be mentioned in RigVeda and several Upanishats. One

specific Upanishad I heard is " Yoga-Kundalini Upanishad " , which is a minor

upanishad. Even Ganapathyatharva Seersham (aka Ganeshopanishat) refers to the

four-fold division of sound when it says " tvam chatvaari vaak " (meaning:

Ganesha, the 4 types of sound are made of you).

>

> Mother Lalita's 1000 names also extol that she takes the form of Para,

Pasyanti, Madhyama and Vaikhari sounds.

>

> My impression is that this division is a fundamental concept that must have

been mentioned in multiple places in scriptures. Unfortunately, I cannot give

specific references due to my limited knowledge.

>

> Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,

> Narasimha

> -------------------------------

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> -------------------------------

>

> > Dear Narasimha,

> >

> > Thank you for the illuminating information on various types of

> > vibrations related to mantra japa. If you do not mind I would like to

> > read the scriptures that mention these four divisions of vibrations/

> > mantras. Could you therefore point me to the relevant scripture?

> >

> > Chandrashekhar.

> >

> > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Chandrashekhar ji,

> > >

> > > Thank you for the info.

> > >

> > > Though, obviously they are are linked, I want to distinguish between

> > > the two divisions.

> > >

> > > The division you mentioned is about how one chants. One can chant in

> > > one of the three styles.

> > >

> > > The division I mentioned is about various levels of vibrations caused

> > > when we chant. Vibrations can be caused in the matter belonging to the

> > > sthoola sareera (gross body), sookshma sareera (subtle body), kaarana

> > > sareera (causal body) or mahaakaarana sareera (the aakasa tattva body

> > > of the entire universe). When someone chants loud, there is vaikhari

> > > (vibration in the matter belonging to the gross level of existence),

> > > but it does not mean there is no madhyama (vibrations in the matter

> > > belonging to the subtle level of existence, i.e. matter of sookshma

> > > sareera).

> > >

> > > These four levels of body capture different levels of maya. At the

> > > subtlest level of maya, there only is one mahaakaarana sareera that

> > > stores all the memories, experiences and karmas of the entire

> > > universe. At a lower level of maya, there are kaarana sareeras (causal

> > > bodies) of all the beings. At an even lower level of maya, there are

> > > sookshma sareeras (subtle bodies) of all beings. At the

> > > lowest/grossest level of maya, there are sthoola sareeras (gross

> > > bodies) of all beings.

> > >

> > > Chanting of any mantra in any of the three levels mentioned by you can

> > > cause vibrations (of different intensities) in the four levels of maya.

> > >

> > > Often, awareness of the subtlest levels of our existence requires us

> > > to shut down the awareness of the grosser levels of our existence.

> > > Thus, loud chanting that channels more energy into vaikhari level of

> > > vibration and can obstruct us from awareness of other levels of

> > > existence and channeling more energy into them. However, when an

> > > advanced Yogi or a Maharshi chants a mantra even loud, a lot of energy

> > > may still be being channeled into the subtler levels of vibration,

> > > along with vaikhari.

> > >

> > > When a great maharshi chants a mantra internally, with full awareness

> > > of the mahaakaarana sareera, it can cause vibrations in the matter

> > > belonging to the mahaakaarana sareera (which may not be perceptible to

> > > ears) and thus impact every being in the universe. It all depends on

> > > what kind of vibrations (and how intense) are caused.

> > >

> > > Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,

> > > Narasimha

> > > -------------------------

> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> > > <http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net>

> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > > <http://www.VedicAstrologer.org>

> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> > > <http://www.SriJagannath.org>

> > > -------------------------

> > >

> > > > Dear Narasimha/Krishna,

> > > >

> > > > Ling Purana says " pranavasya tridha smritiH " It mentions Vachika,

> > > > Mukhya/Manas and Upaanshu as the three types of mantra japas that are

> > > > one greater than other in ascending order. Does the 4 fold division

> > > > division indicated by you have anything to do with this?

> > > > Chandrashekhar.

> > > >

> > > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Krishna,

> > > > >

> > > > > Fantastic question and I am glad you asked!

> > > > >

> > > > > The Sanskrit word for sound is " shabda " . However, the concept of

> > > > > shabda is far more subtle than the modern definition of sound. The

> > > > > modern definition of sound is a vibration of the gross matter that is

> > > > > meant to be " heard " by the ears. We put too much emphasis on the

> > > > > external senses, which can only perceive the gross matter of this

> > > > > universe. In the Hindu philosophy, the gross matter is just a small

> > > > > part of the universe and there is something subtle behind everything

> > > > > gross and it cannot be perceived by the external senses.

> > > > >

> > > > > In Hindu philosophy, any shabda manifests at 4 different levels -

> > > > > para, pashyanti, madhyama and vaikhari. Of these, para is the

> > > subtlest

> > > > > level and vaikhari is the grossest level. The vaikhari level of a

> > > > > shabda manifests grossly (through vibration of gross matter) and one

> > > > > can hear it with normal sense organs (ears). The subtler levels of a

> > > > > shabda manifest as vibration of subtler levels of matter and they

> > > > > cannot be heard by ears.

> > > > >

> > > > > The vaikhari level of shabda is audible only for small distances. The

> > > > > para level of a shabda I make when I say a mantra can be perceived by

> > > > > an advanced yogi who may be thousands of miles away! Thus, grosser

> > > > > levels are easier to hear but have space and time limitations,

> > > whereas

> > > > > subtler levels are more difficult to hear but have no space and time

> > > > > limitations.

> > > > >

> > > > > If you say a mantra, it is true that the result of the mantra is

> > > > > through the shabda brahma or sound/vibration energy. But don't be

> > > > > under the false impression that we are talking about vibration of

> > > > > gross matter near you. That is far less significant to have any

> > > > > considerable impact. On the other hand, at the subtlest level, the

> > > > > entire universe is within you and you can cause vibrations on the

> > > > > super-subtle matter of the mahakarana sareera and THAT can have

> > > > > tremendous impact on the entire universe.

> > > > >

> > > > > The goal of a sadhaka is to create more energy at the subtler levels

> > > > > of the shabda when saying mantras. It is not easy. But, limiting the

> > > > > energy *wasted* on creating the vaikhari level of shabda is a good

> > > > > starting point!

> > > > >

> > > > > I hope it is a little clearer now...

> > > > >

> > > > > Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,

> > > > > Narasimha

> > > > >

> > > > > > Dear Narasimha,

> > > > > >

> > > > > > I have a basic doubt. We say that the effet of mantras

> > > > > > is caused by the vibration they generate (or due to

> > > > > > the sound energy). And yet we say that the mantras are

> > > > > > less effective when chanted lound.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Why is this?

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Please clarify.

> > > > > >

> > > > > > Regards,

> > > > > > Krishna

>

Dear Chandrashekhar ji,

Unfortunately, I am not an erudite scholar who can quote scriptures. I just gather a little knowledge by listening to learned people and reading this and that. And, I share that little knowledge with others with great abandon. I do not want to pretend to have read all the scriptures or to remember the source of all my knowledge.

However, the four-fold division I mentioned (para, pasyanti, madhyama and vaikhari) is supposed to be mentioned in RigVeda and several Upanishats. One specific Upanishad I heard is "Yoga-Kundalini Upanishad", which is a minor upanishad. Even Ganapathyatharva Seersham (aka Ganeshopanishat) refers to the four-fold division of sound when it says "tvam chatvaari vaak" (meaning: Ganesha, the 4 types of sound are made of you).

Mother Lalita's 1000 names also extol that she takes the form of Para, Pasyanti, Madhyama and Vaikhari sounds.

My impression is that this division is a fundamental concept that must have been mentioned in multiple places in scriptures. Unfortunately, I cannot give specific references due to my limited knowledge.

Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

------------------------------- > Dear Narasimha,> > Thank you for the illuminating information on various types of > vibrations related to mantra japa. If you do not mind I would like to > read the scriptures that mention these four divisions of vibrations/ > mantras. Could you therefore point me to the relevant scripture?> > Chandrashekhar.> > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao wrote:> >> > Dear Chandrashekhar ji,> >> > Thank you for the info.> >> > Though, obviously they are are linked, I want to distinguish between > > the two divisions.> >> > The division you mentioned is about how one chants. One can chant in > > one of the three styles.> >> > The division I mentioned is about various levels of vibrations caused > > when we chant. Vibrations can be caused in the matter belonging to the > > sthoola sareera (gross body), sookshma sareera (subtle body), kaarana > > sareera (causal body) or mahaakaarana sareera (the aakasa tattva body > > of the entire universe). When someone chants loud, there is vaikhari > > (vibration in the matter belonging to the gross level of existence), > > but it does not mean there is no madhyama (vibrations in the matter > > belonging to the subtle level of existence, i.e. matter of sookshma > > sareera).> >> > These four levels of body capture different levels of maya. At the > > subtlest level of maya, there only is one mahaakaarana sareera that > > stores all the memories, experiences and karmas of the entire > > universe. At a lower level of maya, there are kaarana sareeras (causal > > bodies) of all the beings. At an even lower level of maya, there are > > sookshma sareeras (subtle bodies) of all beings. At the > > lowest/grossest level of maya, there are sthoola sareeras (gross > > bodies) of all beings.> >> > Chanting of any mantra in any of the three levels mentioned by you can > > cause vibrations (of different intensities) in the four levels of maya.> >> > Often, awareness of the subtlest levels of our existence requires us > > to shut down the awareness of the grosser levels of our existence. > > Thus, loud chanting that channels more energy into vaikhari level of > > vibration and can obstruct us from awareness of other levels of > > existence and channeling more energy into them. However, when an > > advanced Yogi or a Maharshi chants a mantra even loud, a lot of energy > > may still be being channeled into the subtler levels of vibration, > > along with vaikhari.> >> > When a great maharshi chants a mantra internally, with full awareness > > of the mahaakaarana sareera, it can cause vibrations in the matter > > belonging to the mahaakaarana sareera (which may not be perceptible to > > ears) and thus impact every being in the universe. It all depends on > > what kind of vibrations (and how intense) are caused.> >> > Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,> > Narasimha> > -------------------------> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > <http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net>> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > <http://www.VedicAstrologer.org>> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > <http://www.SriJagannath.org>> > -------------------------> >> > > Dear Narasimha/Krishna,> > >> > > Ling Purana says " pranavasya tridha smritiH" It mentions Vachika,> > > Mukhya/Manas and Upaanshu as the three types of mantra japas that are> > > one greater than other in ascending order. Does the 4 fold division> > > division indicated by you have anything to do with this?> > > Chandrashekhar.> > >> > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Krishna,> > > >> > > > Fantastic question and I am glad you asked!> > > >> > > > The Sanskrit word for sound is "shabda". However, the concept of> > > > shabda is far more subtle than the modern definition of sound. The> > > > modern definition of sound is a vibration of the gross matter that is> > > > meant to be "heard" by the ears. We put too much emphasis on the> > > > external senses, which can only perceive the gross matter of this> > > > universe. In the Hindu philosophy, the gross matter is just a small> > > > part of the universe and there is something subtle behind everything> > > > gross and it cannot be perceived by the external senses.> > > >> > > > In Hindu philosophy, any shabda manifests at 4 different levels -> > > > para, pashyanti, madhyama and vaikhari. Of these, para is the > > subtlest> > > > level and vaikhari is the grossest level. The vaikhari level of a> > > > shabda manifests grossly (through vibration of gross matter) and one> > > > can hear it with normal sense organs (ears). The subtler levels of a> > > > shabda manifest as vibration of subtler levels of matter and they> > > > cannot be heard by ears.> > > >> > > > The vaikhari level of shabda is audible only for small distances. The> > > > para level of a shabda I make when I say a mantra can be perceived by> > > > an advanced yogi who may be thousands of miles away! Thus, grosser> > > > levels are easier to hear but have space and time limitations, > > whereas> > > > subtler levels are more difficult to hear but have no space and time> > > > limitations.> > > >> > > > If you say a mantra, it is true that the result of the mantra is> > > > through the shabda brahma or sound/vibration energy. But don't be> > > > under the false impression that we are talking about vibration of> > > > gross matter near you. That is far less significant to have any> > > > considerable impact. On the other hand, at the subtlest level, the> > > > entire universe is within you and you can cause vibrations on the> > > > super-subtle matter of the mahakarana sareera and THAT can have> > > > tremendous impact on the entire universe.> > > >> > > > The goal of a sadhaka is to create more energy at the subtler levels> > > > of the shabda when saying mantras. It is not easy. But, limiting the> > > > energy *wasted* on creating the vaikhari level of shabda is a good> > > > starting point!> > > >> > > > I hope it is a little clearer now...> > > >> > > > Sarvam SreeKrishnaarpanamastu,> > > > Narasimha> > > >> > > > > Dear Narasimha,> > > > >> > > > > I have a basic doubt. We say that the effet of mantras> > > > > is caused by the vibration they generate (or due to> > > > > the sound energy). And yet we say that the mantras are> > > > > less effective when chanted lound.> > > > >> > > > > Why is this?> > > > >> > > > > Please clarify.> > > > >> > > > > Regards,> > > > > Krishna