Guest guest Posted June 11, 2006 Report Share Posted June 11, 2006 Dear Lakshmi, Hare Krsna - It is quite debatable whether Deities other than those belonging to Vishnu-Tattva can grant Moksa, but that discussion is for another time. The point I wanted to make in response to your post is that we do not know for sure if someone has attained Moksa, but get suggestions of it from the horoscope. For example, in the study of Punya Chakras, as in Chapter Four of my book, persons dying at a time when Jupiter aspects the 8th house, and when strong benefics indicating ascension to higher lokas are in the 12th house, we can know for sure that the Atma went to the higher lokas, but we do not know if Moksa was attained. It is questionable whether Moksa can be attained even from the Satya-loka, what then to speak of lower planes such as earth. Sanjay has been very clear on this point. Moksa is the domain of God, and is attained only by a few rare souls who have received Divine blessings. It is not something we can calculate and know for sure by way of horoscopic analysis, although the Shastras state that leaving the body in a holy place like Vrndavana or Hrishikesh while uttering the Holy name of God is about as good as it gets so far as one's chances for Moksa after death are concerned. Anyway, there is a point where all of astrology in general fails, and that is where Divine Will steps in an alters the course of destiny. Jaimini speaks of Ketu + benefics influencing the 12th from Karakamsa lagna also as giving the possibility of Moksa, but then again this rare achievement is still not known for sure. It is thus an intellectual exercise only as to who attains Moksa and who does not, but still it is an interesting topic of discussion in Jyotish. Best wishes, Robert At 09:52 AM 6/11/2006, you wrote: Hare Krishna Dear Narsimha, Pranams. You said " " For example, if you worship Ganesha with Atharva Seersham and understand the meaning, you will see that he is lauded as the one from whom the whole universe originates, in whom the whole universe is stationed and into whom the whole universe merges at the time of Destruction, the one who also takes the forms of Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Indra, Agni etc etc. Only if you imagine such a higher aakaasa tattva form of Ganesha that is close to formlessness can Ganesha give you moksha. Similarly, with all higher deities who are muktas even as they exist in a form, you can worship the lower form for specific limited results or worship the higher forms that are close to formlessness and get moksha from them. " " Im asking ..Can you please show me the chart of someone that was liberated by Ganesh? Or Sri Lakshmi? and also how do you know for sure they were " liberated " can you show me in their chart, that they worshipped Ganesh and were liberated.? What do you mean by " liberated " , from what , and from where? thank-you, Lakshmi sohamsa , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr wrote: > > Dear " Anuj " of Rama, :-) > > > " As what you wear is recognized as Ma, and what you desire is also > > recognized as Ma " > > > > Wear=Fear in the above sentence. > > > > Please pardon the typos. Too many in one email. > > Yaar, sometimes profound statements come out of even mistakes made by learned people! > > At the core, we are just Brahman, the Atman. We " wear " many layers of conditioning that make us who we are now (or " aren't " really, depending on your perspective). All those layers of conditioning are indeed part of Ma. It is Ma who covers us with all those layers of conditioning (and hence it is Ma who can be the key to unravelling them). > > Thus, your typo is IMHO a very profound statement! > > > > Ma Kali is therefore, not Tamas and Ma is not afflicted by Gunas. She has > > > lordship over them, being the Prakriti herself. > > Yes, She is the Prakriti Herself. Though Lakshmi, Saraswati and Kaali are all Prakriti only, they have lordship over different gunas within the Prakriti. > > However, it is correct that She is " not affected by Gunas " . I completely agree with you. I now understand why some people were upset when I associated Kaali with tamas! Thanks for your mail. > > What you said above is true of most heigher deities. They are personifications of various guna combinations, but not affected by gunas. They are all muktas (already liberated). Being muktas, they are untouched by the gunas of the specific form they occupy. They do the work of the form they occupy, with the most perfect realization that they are the formless Brahman. Thus, the form they occupy has gunas but they are untouched by them. They exist in a form like that for a specific time and then they get moksha, i.e. their form merges with the formless Brahman. > > For example, Maharshi Vasishtha described the time periods of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. During the lifetime of one Vishnu, so many Brahmas come, do their job and get moksha (don't confuse this creator Brahma with formless Brahman). Similarly, during the lifetime of one Shiva, so many Vishnus come, do their job and get moksha. That is what Vasishtha taught Sri Ramachandra. > > All these heigher deities have long time periods to spend in a form and do so as muktas who are untouched by the gunas of the form they occupy. > > All these heigher deities who are muktas while existing in a form have the ability to operate at the low level and grant low level wishes or operate close to formlessness and give moksha. > > For example, Sanjay keeps on writing about the 12th house, Pisces and aakaasa tattva link to argue that only Vishnu gives moksha. But what the 12th house, Pisces and aakaasa tattva links suggests is that any deity who gives moksha is of aakaasa tattva and is close to formlessness. > > By worshipping Shiva as merely the giver of marriage (as Souvik wrote) or by worshipping Ganesha as merely the remover of obstacles or Mahaalakshmi as merely the giver of wealth or Mahaasaraswati as merely the giver of knowledge or Mahaakaali as merely the giver of victory in battles (as Sanjay wrote), you are merely worshipping a low level form of the deity and can only get limited results. But, as you worship them and get close to them, you may start realizing the unlimited nature of those deities. > > For example, if you worship Ganesha with Atharva Seersham and understand the meaning, you will see that he is lauded as the one from whom the whole universe originates, in whom the whole universe is stationed and into whom the whole universe merges at the time of Destruction, the one who also takes the forms of Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Indra, Agni etc etc. Only if you imagine such a higher aakaasa tattva form of Ganesha that is close to formlessness can Ganesha give you moksha. > > Similarly, with all higher deities who are muktas even as they exist in a form, you can worship the lower form for specific limited results or worship the higher forms that are close to formlessness and get moksha from them. > > Enough for today.. > > May the light of Brahman shine within, > Narasimha > ------------------------------- > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > ------------------------------- > > > " As what you wear is recognized as Ma, and what you desire is also > > recognized as Ma " > > > > Wear=Fear in the above sentence. > > > > Please pardon the typos. Too many in one email. > > > > Thanks and Regards > > Bharat > > > > On 6/8/06, Bharat Hindu Astrology <hinduastrology@> wrote: > > > > > > Namaskaar Sri Sanjay and Sri Narasimha > > > > > > Just a small note regarding Gunas and Ma: > > > > > > Ma Kali is not Tamas. All Tamas is Ma Kali. Like Ma lakshmi is not wealth > > > but all wealth is Ma lakshmi. Ma Saraswati is not knowledge, but all > > > knowledge is Ma Saraswati. > > > > > > Whatever we in the world, is nothing but the Lord. In Tantra, the > > > expression of the Lord is Ma. All things that scare us are joined in Tamas. > > > Hence, understand them to be nothing but Ma. Call her Ma Kaali if you wish. > > > All that is desired, that attracts you is nothing but the same Ma. Call he > > > Ma Lakshmi if you wish. By doing so, fears and desire vanish. As what you > > > wear is recognized as Ma, and what you desire is also recognized as Ma. This > > > makes one free from the same and understand that the objects of the world > > > are nothing but Ma. > > > > > > Ma Kali is therefore, not Tamas and Ma is not afflicted by Gunas. She has > > > lordship over them, being the Prakriti herself. > > > > > > Thanks and Regards > > > Bharat > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 Dear Robert, > It is questionable whether Moksa can be > attained even from the Satya-loka, what then to speak of lower planes > such as earth. You are implying that all souls on earth have inferior karma to souls in Satyaloka. Do you think it is not possible that a soul that was in Satyaloka or Tapoloka returns to earth for a specific work, even though its karma entitles it to stay in that higher loka for more time? Maharshi Vasishtha described the stories of beings who got moksha while living in Paataala. Paataala is a further lower plane than earth. He also described several stories to Rama in which people living on earth became jeevanmuktas and finally got moksha. Thus, I cannot agree that souls living in mrityuloka right now have no chance of getting moksha. Just wanted to make these observations. I will leave the rest of your mail without comments for now. May the light of Brahman shine within, Narasimha ------------------------------- Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org ------------------------------- sohamsa , Robert Koch <rk wrote:>> Dear Lakshmi,> > Hare Krsna -> > It is quite debatable whether Deities other than those belonging to > Vishnu-Tattva can grant Moksa, but that discussion is for another > time. The point I wanted to make in response to your post is that we > do not know for sure if someone has attained Moksa, but get > suggestions of it from the horoscope. For example, in the study of > Punya Chakras, as in Chapter Four of my book, persons dying at a time > when Jupiter aspects the 8th house, and when strong benefics > indicating ascension to higher lokas are in the 12th house, we can > know for sure that the Atma went to the higher lokas, but we do not > know if Moksa was attained. It is questionable whether Moksa can be > attained even from the Satya-loka, what then to speak of lower planes > such as earth.> > Sanjay has been very clear on this point. Moksa is the domain of > God, and is attained only by a few rare souls who have received > Divine blessings. It is not something we can calculate and know for > sure by way of horoscopic analysis, although the Shastras state that > leaving the body in a holy place like Vrndavana or Hrishikesh while > uttering the Holy name of God is about as good as it gets so far as > one's chances for Moksa after death are concerned. Anyway, there is > a point where all of astrology in general fails, and that is where > Divine Will steps in an alters the course of destiny. Jaimini speaks > of Ketu + benefics influencing the 12th from Karakamsa lagna also as > giving the possibility of Moksa, but then again this rare achievement > is still not known for sure. It is thus an intellectual exercise > only as to who attains Moksa and who does not, but still it is an > interesting topic of discussion in Jyotish.> > Best wishes,> Robert> > At 09:52 AM 6/11/2006, you wrote:> >Hare Krishna> >Dear Narsimha,> >Pranams.> >You said "" For example, if you worship Ganesha with Atharva> >Seersham and understand the meaning, you will see that he is lauded> >as the one from whom the whole universe originates, in whom the> >whole universe is stationed and into whom the whole universe merges> >at the time of Destruction, the one who also takes the forms of> >Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Indra, Agni etc etc. Only if you imagine such> >a higher aakaasa tattva form of Ganesha that is close to> >formlessness can Ganesha give you moksha.> >> >Similarly, with all higher deities who are muktas even as they exist> >in a form, you can worship the lower form for specific limited> >results or worship the higher forms that are close to formlessness> >and get moksha from them.""> >> > Im asking ..Can you please show me the chart of someone that was> >liberated by Ganesh? Or Sri Lakshmi?> >and also how do you know for sure they were "liberated"can you show> >me in their chart, that they worshipped Ganesh and were liberated.?> >What do you mean by "liberated", from what , and from where?> >thank-you,> >Lakshmi> >> >> >sohamsa , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@>> >wrote:> > >> > > Dear "Anuj" of Rama, :-)> > >> > > > "As what you wear is recognized as Ma, and what you desire is> >also> > > > recognized as Ma"> > > >> > > > Wear=Fear in the above sentence.> > > >> > > > Please pardon the typos. Too many in one email.> > >> > > Yaar, sometimes profound statements come out of even mistakes made> >by learned people!> > >> > > At the core, we are just Brahman, the Atman. We "wear" many layers> >of conditioning that make us who we are now (or "aren't" really,> >depending on your perspective). All those layers of conditioning are> >indeed part of Ma. It is Ma who covers us with all those layers of> >conditioning (and hence it is Ma who can be the key to unravelling> >them).> > >> > > Thus, your typo is IMHO a very profound statement!> > >> > > > > Ma Kali is therefore, not Tamas and Ma is not afflicted by> >Gunas. She has> > > > > lordship over them, being the Prakriti herself.> > >> > > Yes, She is the Prakriti Herself. Though Lakshmi, Saraswati and> >Kaali are all Prakriti only, they have lordship over different gunas> >within the Prakriti.> > >> > > However, it is correct that She is "not affected by Gunas". I> >completely agree with you. I now understand why some people were> >upset when I associated Kaali with tamas! Thanks for your mail.> > >> > > What you said above is true of most heigher deities. They are> >personifications of various guna combinations, but not affected by> >gunas. They are all muktas (already liberated). Being muktas, they> >are untouched by the gunas of the specific form they occupy. They do> >the work of the form they occupy, with the most perfect realization> >that they are the formless Brahman. Thus, the form they occupy has> >gunas but they are untouched by them. They exist in a form like that> >for a specific time and then they get moksha, i.e. their form merges> >with the formless Brahman.> > >> > > For example, Maharshi Vasishtha described the time periods of> >Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. During the lifetime of one Vishnu, so many> >Brahmas come, do their job and get moksha (don't confuse this> >creator Brahma with formless Brahman). Similarly, during the> >lifetime of one Shiva, so many Vishnus come, do their job and get> >moksha. That is what Vasishtha taught Sri Ramachandra.> > >> > > All these heigher deities have long time periods to spend in a> >form and do so as muktas who are untouched by the gunas of the form> >they occupy.> > >> > > All these heigher deities who are muktas while existing in a form> >have the ability to operate at the low level and grant low level> >wishes or operate close to formlessness and give moksha.> > >> > > For example, Sanjay keeps on writing about the 12th house, Pisces> >and aakaasa tattva link to argue that only Vishnu gives moksha. But> >what the 12th house, Pisces and aakaasa tattva links suggests is> >that any deity who gives moksha is of aakaasa tattva and is close to> >formlessness.> > >> > > By worshipping Shiva as merely the giver of marriage (as Souvik> >wrote) or by worshipping Ganesha as merely the remover of obstacles> >or Mahaalakshmi as merely the giver of wealth or Mahaasaraswati as> >merely the giver of knowledge or Mahaakaali as merely the giver of> >victory in battles (as Sanjay wrote), you are merely worshipping a> >low level form of the deity and can only get limited results. But,> >as you worship them and get close to them, you may start realizing> >the unlimited nature of those deities.> > >> > > For example, if you worship Ganesha with Atharva Seersham and> >understand the meaning, you will see that he is lauded as the one> >from whom the whole universe originates, in whom the whole universe> >is stationed and into whom the whole universe merges at the time of> >Destruction, the one who also takes the forms of Brahma, Vishnu,> >Rudra, Indra, Agni etc etc. Only if you imagine such a higher> >aakaasa tattva form of Ganesha that is close to formlessness can> >Ganesha give you moksha.> > >> > > Similarly, with all higher deities who are muktas even as they> >exist in a form, you can worship the lower form for specific limited> >results or worship the higher forms that are close to formlessness> >and get moksha from them.> > >> > > Enough for today..> > >> > > May the light of Brahman shine within,> > > Narasimha> > > -------------------------------> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org> > > ------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 Dear Narasimha, I really do not about vedic philosophy; but as per Jainism (and perhaps with Budhism too), manushya yoni is the only one, through which soul can attain moksha. Even, Devatas too (super souls), need to take birth in manushya yoni for their final karmic salvation (on way to moksha). regards / Prafulla Gang People may not remember what you did for them, or even what you said, but they will always remember how you made them feel. > > pvr > Sun, 11 Jun 2006 22:13:05 -0400 > , vedic astrology , > sohamsa , sjcboston > Re: Moksa in the horoscope? > > Dear Robert, > >> It is questionable whether Moksa can be >> attained even from the Satya-loka, what then to speak of lower planes >> such as earth. > > You are implying that all souls on earth have inferior karma to souls in > Satyaloka. Do you think it is not possible that a soul that was in > Satyaloka or Tapoloka returns to earth for a specific work, even though > its karma entitles it to stay in that higher loka for more time? > > Maharshi Vasishtha described the stories of beings who got moksha while > living in Paataala. Paataala is a further lower plane than earth. He also > described several stories to Rama in which people living on earth became > jeevanmuktas and finally got moksha. Thus, I cannot agree that souls > living in mrityuloka right now have no chance of getting moksha. > > Just wanted to make these observations. I will leave the rest of your > mail without comments for now. > > May the light of Brahman shine within, > Narasimha > ------------------------------- > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > ------------------------------- > > sohamsa , Robert Koch <rk wrote: >> >> Dear Lakshmi, >> >> Hare Krsna - >> >> It is quite debatable whether Deities other than those belonging to >> Vishnu-Tattva can grant Moksa, but that discussion is for another >> time. The point I wanted to make in response to your post is that we >> do not know for sure if someone has attained Moksa, but get >> suggestions of it from the horoscope. For example, in the study of >> Punya Chakras, as in Chapter Four of my book, persons dying at a time >> when Jupiter aspects the 8th house, and when strong benefics >> indicating ascension to higher lokas are in the 12th house, we can >> know for sure that the Atma went to the higher lokas, but we do not >> know if Moksa was attained. It is questionable whether Moksa can be >> attained even from the Satya-loka, what then to speak of lower planes >> such as earth. >> >> Sanjay has been very clear on this point. Moksa is the domain of >> God, and is attained only by a few rare souls who have received >> Divine blessings. It is not something we can calculate and know for >> sure by way of horoscopic analysis, although the Shastras state that >> leaving the body in a holy place like Vrndavana or Hrishikesh while >> uttering the Holy name of God is about as good as it gets so far as >> one's chances for Moksa after death are concerned. Anyway, there is >> a point where all of astrology in general fails, and that is where >> Divine Will steps in an alters the course of destiny. Jaimini speaks >> of Ketu + benefics influencing the 12th from Karakamsa lagna also as >> giving the possibility of Moksa, but then again this rare achievement >> is still not known for sure. It is thus an intellectual exercise >> only as to who attains Moksa and who does not, but still it is an >> interesting topic of discussion in Jyotish. >> >> Best wishes, >> Robert >> >> At 09:52 AM 6/11/2006, you wrote: >> >Hare Krishna >> >Dear Narsimha, >> >Pranams. >> >You said " " For example, if you worship Ganesha with Atharva >> >Seersham and understand the meaning, you will see that he is lauded >> >as the one from whom the whole universe originates, in whom the >> >whole universe is stationed and into whom the whole universe merges >> >at the time of Destruction, the one who also takes the forms of >> >Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Indra, Agni etc etc. Only if you imagine such >> >a higher aakaasa tattva form of Ganesha that is close to >> >formlessness can Ganesha give you moksha. >>> >> >Similarly, with all higher deities who are muktas even as they exist >> >in a form, you can worship the lower form for specific limited >> >results or worship the higher forms that are close to formlessness >> >and get moksha from them. " " >>> >>> Im asking ..Can you please show me the chart of someone that was >> >liberated by Ganesh? Or Sri Lakshmi? >> >and also how do you know for sure they were " liberated " can you show >> >me in their chart, that they worshipped Ganesh and were liberated.? >> >What do you mean by " liberated " , from what , and from where? >> >thank-you, >> >Lakshmi >>> >>> >> >sohamsa , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> >> >wrote: >>>> >>>> Dear " Anuj " of Rama, :-) >>>> >>>>> " As what you wear is recognized as Ma, and what you desire is >> >also >>>>> recognized as Ma " >>>>> >>>>> Wear=Fear in the above sentence. >>>>> >>>>> Please pardon the typos. Too many in one email. >>>> >>>> Yaar, sometimes profound statements come out of even mistakes made >> >by learned people! >>>> >>>> At the core, we are just Brahman, the Atman. We " wear " many layers >> >of conditioning that make us who we are now (or " aren't " really, >> >depending on your perspective). All those layers of conditioning are >> >indeed part of Ma. It is Ma who covers us with all those layers of >> >conditioning (and hence it is Ma who can be the key to unravelling >> >them). >>>> >>>> Thus, your typo is IMHO a very profound statement! >>>> >>>>>> Ma Kali is therefore, not Tamas and Ma is not afflicted by >> >Gunas. She has >>>>>> lordship over them, being the Prakriti herself. >>>> >>>> Yes, She is the Prakriti Herself. Though Lakshmi, Saraswati and >> >Kaali are all Prakriti only, they have lordship over different gunas >> >within the Prakriti. >>>> >>>> However, it is correct that She is " not affected by Gunas " . I >> >completely agree with you. I now understand why some people were >> >upset when I associated Kaali with tamas! Thanks for your mail. >>>> >>>> What you said above is true of most heigher deities. They are >> >personifications of various guna combinations, but not affected by >> >gunas. They are all muktas (already liberated). Being muktas, they >> >are untouched by the gunas of the specific form they occupy. They do >> >the work of the form they occupy, with the most perfect realization >> >that they are the formless Brahman. Thus, the form they occupy has >> >gunas but they are untouched by them. They exist in a form like that >> >for a specific time and then they get moksha, i.e. their form merges >> >with the formless Brahman. >>>> >>>> For example, Maharshi Vasishtha described the time periods of >> >Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. During the lifetime of one Vishnu, so many >> >Brahmas come, do their job and get moksha (don't confuse this >> >creator Brahma with formless Brahman). Similarly, during the >> >lifetime of one Shiva, so many Vishnus come, do their job and get >> >moksha. That is what Vasishtha taught Sri Ramachandra. >>>> >>>> All these heigher deities have long time periods to spend in a >> >form and do so as muktas who are untouched by the gunas of the form >> >they occupy. >>>> >>>> All these heigher deities who are muktas while existing in a form >> >have the ability to operate at the low level and grant low level >> >wishes or operate close to formlessness and give moksha. >>>> >>>> For example, Sanjay keeps on writing about the 12th house, Pisces >> >and aakaasa tattva link to argue that only Vishnu gives moksha. But >> >what the 12th house, Pisces and aakaasa tattva links suggests is >> >that any deity who gives moksha is of aakaasa tattva and is close to >> >formlessness. >>>> >>>> By worshipping Shiva as merely the giver of marriage (as Souvik >> >wrote) or by worshipping Ganesha as merely the remover of obstacles >> >or Mahaalakshmi as merely the giver of wealth or Mahaasaraswati as >> >merely the giver of knowledge or Mahaakaali as merely the giver of >> >victory in battles (as Sanjay wrote), you are merely worshipping a >> >low level form of the deity and can only get limited results. But, >> >as you worship them and get close to them, you may start realizing >> >the unlimited nature of those deities. >>>> >>>> For example, if you worship Ganesha with Atharva Seersham and >> >understand the meaning, you will see that he is lauded as the one >> >from whom the whole universe originates, in whom the whole universe >> >is stationed and into whom the whole universe merges at the time of >> >Destruction, the one who also takes the forms of Brahma, Vishnu, >> >Rudra, Indra, Agni etc etc. Only if you imagine such a higher >> >aakaasa tattva form of Ganesha that is close to formlessness can >> >Ganesha give you moksha. >>>> >>>> Similarly, with all higher deities who are muktas even as they >> >exist in a form, you can worship the lower form for specific limited >> >results or worship the higher forms that are close to formlessness >> >and get moksha from them. >>>> >>>> Enough for today.. >>>> >>>> May the light of Brahman shine within, >>>> Narasimha >>>> ------------------------------- >>>> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net >>>> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org >>>> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org >>>> ------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 12, 2006 Report Share Posted June 12, 2006 Dear Narasimha, Interesting discussion, and thanks for your reply. While at the present time we have no knowledge as to whether souls dying indiscriminately all over the world (Mrtyuloka) have attained Moksa or not, it is true that the Lord in His various avataras prefers to come here. As it is said, " sambhavani yuge yuge, " in each yuga such avataras appear to reinstate dharma and to diminish the influence of demonic forces. Whoever is here on earth at the time such avataras appear (yuga avataras and lila avataras also), is practically assured of Moksa. Yes, there are some instances mentioned in shastras wherein some Jiva was liberated even from Pataala, and even during Sri Krsna Caitanya's incarnation, the Lord liberated some souls in the bodies of animals and trees. So all these things are implied, i.e. that the avataras of Vishnu appear to deliver all kinds of conditioned souls from whatever plane of existence they may be on, especially earth. Souls in Satyaloka, Tapaloka, etc. can indeed come to earth to carry out a mission or specific work, as you say, and then from the earthly plane they can attain liberation. But my point was, we have no knowledge of or guarantee that souls on earth at this juncture in time are attaining Moksa. I'm sure there are such souls, but how do we know for sure? This was the whole import of my previous post. In the astrological chart also we cannot say for certain that such and such person has attained Moksa, as this is the domain of God and for which there is no other protocol than His inexplicable mercy. Best wishes, Robert At 07:13 PM 6/11/2006, you wrote: Dear Robert, > It is questionable whether Moksa can be > attained even from the Satya-loka, what then to speak of lower planes > such as earth. You are implying that all souls on earth have inferior karma to souls in Satyaloka. Do you think it is not possible that a soul that was in Satyaloka or Tapoloka returns to earth for a specific work, even though its karma entitles it to stay in that higher loka for more time? Maharshi Vasishtha described the stories of beings who got moksha while living in Paataala. Paataala is a further lower plane than earth. He also described several stories to Rama in which people living on earth became jeevanmuktas and finally got moksha. Thus, I cannot agree that souls living in mrityuloka right now have no chance of getting moksha. Just wanted to make these observations. I will leave the rest of your mail without comments for now. May the light of Brahman shine within, Narasimha ------------------------------- Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org ------------------------------- --- In sohamsa , Robert Koch <rk wrote: > > Dear Lakshmi, > > Hare Krsna - > > It is quite debatable whether Deities other than those belonging to > Vishnu-Tattva can grant Moksa, but that discussion is for another > time. The point I wanted to make in response to your post is that we > do not know for sure if someone has attained Moksa, but get > suggestions of it from the horoscope. For example, in the study of > Punya Chakras, as in Chapter Four of my book, persons dying at a time > when Jupiter aspects the 8th house, and when strong benefics > indicating ascension to higher lokas are in the 12th house, we can > know for sure that the Atma went to the higher lokas, but we do not > know if Moksa was attained. It is questionable whether Moksa can be > attained even from the Satya-loka, what then to speak of lower planes > such as earth. > > Sanjay has been very clear on this point. Moksa is the domain of > God, and is attained only by a few rare souls who have received > Divine blessings. It is not something we can calculate and know for > sure by way of horoscopic analysis, although the Shastras state that > leaving the body in a holy place like Vrndavana or Hrishikesh while > uttering the Holy name of God is about as good as it gets so far as > one's chances for Moksa after death are concerned. Anyway, there is > a point where all of astrology in general fails, and that is where > Divine Will steps in an alters the course of destiny. Jaimini speaks > of Ketu + benefics influencing the 12th from Karakamsa lagna also as > giving the possibility of Moksa, but then again this rare achievement > is still not known for sure. It is thus an intellectual exercise > only as to who attains Moksa and who does not, but still it is an > interesting topic of discussion in Jyotish. > > Best wishes, > Robert > > At 09:52 AM 6/11/2006, you wrote: > >Hare Krishna > >Dear Narsimha, > >Pranams. > >You said " " For example, if you worship Ganesha with Atharva > >Seersham and understand the meaning, you will see that he is lauded > >as the one from whom the whole universe originates, in whom the > >whole universe is stationed and into whom the whole universe merges > >at the time of Destruction, the one who also takes the forms of > >Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Indra, Agni etc etc. Only if you imagine such > >a higher aakaasa tattva form of Ganesha that is close to > >formlessness can Ganesha give you moksha. > > > >Similarly, with all higher deities who are muktas even as they exist > >in a form, you can worship the lower form for specific limited > >results or worship the higher forms that are close to formlessness > >and get moksha from them. " " > > > > Im asking ..Can you please show me the chart of someone that was > >liberated by Ganesh? Or Sri Lakshmi? > >and also how do you know for sure they were " liberated " can you show > >me in their chart, that they worshipped Ganesh and were liberated.? > >What do you mean by " liberated " , from what , and from where? > >thank-you, > >Lakshmi > > > > > >--- In sohamsa , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> > >wrote: > > > > > > Dear " Anuj " of Rama, :-) > > > > > > > " As what you wear is recognized as Ma, and what you desire is > >also > > > > recognized as Ma " > > > > > > > > Wear=Fear in the above sentence. > > > > > > > > Please pardon the typos. Too many in one email. > > > > > > Yaar, sometimes profound statements come out of even mistakes made > >by learned people! > > > > > > At the core, we are just Brahman, the Atman. We " wear " many layers > >of conditioning that make us who we are now (or " aren't " really, > >depending on your perspective). All those layers of conditioning are > >indeed part of Ma. It is Ma who covers us with all those layers of > >conditioning (and hence it is Ma who can be the key to unravelling > >them). > > > > > > Thus, your typo is IMHO a very profound statement! > > > > > > > > Ma Kali is therefore, not Tamas and Ma is not afflicted by > >Gunas. She has > > > > > lordship over them, being the Prakriti herself. > > > > > > Yes, She is the Prakriti Herself. Though Lakshmi, Saraswati and > >Kaali are all Prakriti only, they have lordship over different gunas > >within the Prakriti. > > > > > > However, it is correct that She is " not affected by Gunas " . I > >completely agree with you. I now understand why some people were > >upset when I associated Kaali with tamas! Thanks for your mail. > > > > > > What you said above is true of most heigher deities. They are > >personifications of various guna combinations, but not affected by > >gunas. They are all muktas (already liberated). Being muktas, they > >are untouched by the gunas of the specific form they occupy. They do > >the work of the form they occupy, with the most perfect realization > >that they are the formless Brahman. Thus, the form they occupy has > >gunas but they are untouched by them. They exist in a form like that > >for a specific time and then they get moksha, i.e. their form merges > >with the formless Brahman. > > > > > > For example, Maharshi Vasishtha described the time periods of > >Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. During the lifetime of one Vishnu, so many > >Brahmas come, do their job and get moksha (don't confuse this > >creator Brahma with formless Brahman). Similarly, during the > >lifetime of one Shiva, so many Vishnus come, do their job and get > >moksha. That is what Vasishtha taught Sri Ramachandra. > > > > > > All these heigher deities have long time periods to spend in a > >form and do so as muktas who are untouched by the gunas of the form > >they occupy. > > > > > > All these heigher deities who are muktas while existing in a form > >have the ability to operate at the low level and grant low level > >wishes or operate close to formlessness and give moksha. > > > > > > For example, Sanjay keeps on writing about the 12th house, Pisces > >and aakaasa tattva link to argue that only Vishnu gives moksha. But > >what the 12th house, Pisces and aakaasa tattva links suggests is > >that any deity who gives moksha is of aakaasa tattva and is close to > >formlessness. > > > > > > By worshipping Shiva as merely the giver of marriage (as Souvik > >wrote) or by worshipping Ganesha as merely the remover of obstacles > >or Mahaalakshmi as merely the giver of wealth or Mahaasaraswati as > >merely the giver of knowledge or Mahaakaali as merely the giver of > >victory in battles (as Sanjay wrote), you are merely worshipping a > >low level form of the deity and can only get limited results. But, > >as you worship them and get close to them, you may start realizing > >the unlimited nature of those deities. > > > > > > For example, if you worship Ganesha with Atharva Seersham and > >understand the meaning, you will see that he is lauded as the one > >from whom the whole universe originates, in whom the whole universe > >is stationed and into whom the whole universe merges at the time of > >Destruction, the one who also takes the forms of Brahma, Vishnu, > >Rudra, Indra, Agni etc etc. Only if you imagine such a higher > >aakaasa tattva form of Ganesha that is close to formlessness can > >Ganesha give you moksha. > > > > > > Similarly, with all higher deities who are muktas even as they > >exist in a form, you can worship the lower form for specific limited > >results or worship the higher forms that are close to formlessness > >and get moksha from them. > > > > > > Enough for today.. > > > > > > May the light of Brahman shine within, > > > Narasimha > > > ------------------------------- > > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > ------------------------------- ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Robert A. Koch, Vedic Astrologer Faculty member, SJC and ACVA Author, The Spiritual Dimensions of Vedic Astrology visit: http://www.robertkoch.com Email: rk Ph: 541.318.0248 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 13, 2006 Report Share Posted June 13, 2006 Esttemed Gurus and fellow students< To continue on this thread... According to Buddhist understanding, even if one was in a higher realm, if they find themselves it is because they have the karma to be born in a human realm on this planet. One might be a Mahatma as it were a might have accomplished Enlightnement, Liberation etc and choose to return, but such choice means the karma is present for such a choice to be made. I assume that these details will appear in the chart. --MarkPrafulla Gang <jyotish wrote: Dear Narasimha,I really do not about vedic philosophy; but as per Jainism (and perhaps with Budhism too), manushya yoni is the only one, through which soul can attain moksha. Even, Devatas too (super souls), need to take birth in manushya yoni for their final karmic salvation (on way to moksha).regards / Prafulla GangPeople may not remember what you did for them, or even what you said, but they will always remember how you made them feel.> > pvr (AT) charter (DOT) net> Sun, 11 Jun 2006 22:13:05 -0400> , vedic astrology ,> sohamsa , sjcboston > Re: Moksa in the horoscope?> > Dear Robert,> >> It is questionable whether Moksa can be>> attained even from the Satya-loka, what then to speak of lower planes>> such as earth.> > You are implying that all souls on earth have inferior karma to souls in> Satyaloka. Do you think it is not possible that a soul that was in> Satyaloka or Tapoloka returns to earth for a specific work, even though> its karma entitles it to stay in that higher loka for more time?> > Maharshi Vasishtha described the stories of beings who got moksha while> living in Paataala. Paataala is a further lower plane than earth. He also> described several stories to Rama in which people living on earth became> jeevanmuktas and finally got moksha. Thus, I cannot agree that souls> living in mrityuloka right now have no chance of getting moksha.> > Just wanted to make these observations. I will leave the rest of your> mail without comments for now.> > May the light of Brahman shine within,> Narasimha> -------------------------> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org> -------------------------> > sohamsa , Robert Koch <rk wrote:>> >> Dear Lakshmi,>> >> Hare Krsna ->> >> It is quite debatable whether Deities other than those belonging to>> Vishnu-Tattva can grant Moksa, but that discussion is for another>> time. The point I wanted to make in response to your post is that we>> do not know for sure if someone has attained Moksa, but get>> suggestions of it from the horoscope. For example, in the study of>> Punya Chakras, as in Chapter Four of my book, persons dying at a time>> when Jupiter aspects the 8th house, and when strong benefics>> indicating ascension to higher lokas are in the 12th house, we can>> know for sure that the Atma went to the higher lokas, but we do not>> know if Moksa was attained. It is questionable whether Moksa can be>> attained even from the Satya-loka, what then to speak of lower planes>> such as earth.>> >> Sanjay has been very clear on this point. Moksa is the domain of>> God, and is attained only by a few rare souls who have received>> Divine blessings. It is not something we can calculate and know for>> sure by way of horoscopic analysis, although the Shastras state that>> leaving the body in a holy place like Vrndavana or Hrishikesh while>> uttering the Holy name of God is about as good as it gets so far as>> one's chances for Moksa after death are concerned. Anyway, there is>> a point where all of astrology in general fails, and that is where>> Divine Will steps in an alters the course of destiny. Jaimini speaks>> of Ketu + benefics influencing the 12th from Karakamsa lagna also as>> giving the possibility of Moksa, but then again this rare achievement>> is still not known for sure. It is thus an intellectual exercise>> only as to who attains Moksa and who does not, but still it is an>> interesting topic of discussion in Jyotish.>> >> Best wishes,>> Robert>> >> At 09:52 AM 6/11/2006, you wrote:>> >Hare Krishna>> >Dear Narsimha,>> >Pranams.>> >You said "" For example, if you worship Ganesha with Atharva>> >Seersham and understand the meaning, you will see that he is lauded>> >as the one from whom the whole universe originates, in whom the>> >whole universe is stationed and into whom the whole universe merges>> >at the time of Destruction, the one who also takes the forms of>> >Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra, Indra, Agni etc etc. Only if you imagine such>> >a higher aakaasa tattva form of Ganesha that is close to>> >formlessness can Ganesha give you moksha.>>> >> >Similarly, with all higher deities who are muktas even as they exist>> >in a form, you can worship the lower form for specific limited>> >results or worship the higher forms that are close to formlessness>> >and get moksha from them."">>> >>> Im asking ..Can you please show me the chart of someone that was>> >liberated by Ganesh? Or Sri Lakshmi?>> >and also how do you know for sure they were "liberated"can you show>> >me in their chart, that they worshipped Ganesh and were liberated.?>> >What do you mean by "liberated", from what , and from where?>> >thank-you,>> >Lakshmi>>> >>> >> >sohamsa , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@>>> >wrote:>>>> >>>> Dear "Anuj" of Rama, :-)>>>> >>>>> "As what you wear is recognized as Ma, and what you desire is>> >also>>>>> recognized as Ma">>>>> >>>>> Wear=Fear in the above sentence.>>>>> >>>>> Please pardon the typos. Too many in one email.>>>> >>>> Yaar, sometimes profound statements come out of even mistakes made>> >by learned people!>>>> >>>> At the core, we are just Brahman, the Atman. We "wear" many layers>> >of conditioning that make us who we are now (or "aren't" really,>> >depending on your perspective). All those layers of conditioning are>> >indeed part of Ma. It is Ma who covers us with all those layers of>> >conditioning (and hence it is Ma who can be the key to unravelling>> >them).>>>> >>>> Thus, your typo is IMHO a very profound statement!>>>> >>>>>> Ma Kali is therefore, not Tamas and Ma is not afflicted by>> >Gunas. She has>>>>>> lordship over them, being the Prakriti herself.>>>> >>>> Yes, She is the Prakriti Herself. Though Lakshmi, Saraswati and>> >Kaali are all Prakriti only, they have lordship over different gunas>> >within the Prakriti.>>>> >>>> However, it is correct that She is "not affected by Gunas". I>> >completely agree with you. I now understand why some people were>> >upset when I associated Kaali with tamas! Thanks for your mail.>>>> >>>> What you said above is true of most heigher deities. They are>> >personifications of various guna combinations, but not affected by>> >gunas. They are all muktas (already liberated). Being muktas, they>> >are untouched by the gunas of the specific form they occupy. They do>> >the work of the form they occupy, with the most perfect realization>> >that they are the formless Brahman. Thus, the form they occupy has>> >gunas but they are untouched by them. They exist in a form like that>> >for a specific time and then they get moksha, i.e. their form merges>> >with the formless Brahman.>>>> >>>> For example, Maharshi Vasishtha described the time periods of>> >Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. During the lifetime of one Vishnu, so many>> >Brahmas come, do their job and get moksha (don't confuse this>> >creator Brahma with formless Brahman). Similarly, during the>> >lifetime of one Shiva, so many Vishnus come, do their job and get>> >moksha. That is what Vasishtha taught Sri Ramachandra.>>>> >>>> All these heigher deities have long time periods to spend in a>> >form and do so as muktas who are untouched by the gunas of the form>> >they occupy.>>>> >>>> All these heigher deities who are muktas while existing in a form>> >have the ability to operate at the low level and grant low level>> >wishes or operate close to formlessness and give moksha.>>>> >>>> For example, Sanjay keeps on writing about the 12th house, Pisces>> >and aakaasa tattva link to argue that only Vishnu gives moksha. But>> >what the 12th house, Pisces and aakaasa tattva links suggests is>> >that any deity who gives moksha is of aakaasa tattva and is close to>> >formlessness.>>>> >>>> By worshipping Shiva as merely the giver of marriage (as Souvik>> >wrote) or by worshipping Ganesha as merely the remover of obstacles>> >or Mahaalakshmi as merely the giver of wealth or Mahaasaraswati as>> >merely the giver of knowledge or Mahaakaali as merely the giver of>> >victory in battles (as Sanjay wrote), you are merely worshipping a>> >low level form of the deity and can only get limited results. But,>> >as you worship them and get close to them, you may start realizing>> >the unlimited nature of those deities.>>>> >>>> For example, if you worship Ganesha with Atharva Seersham and>> >understand the meaning, you will see that he is lauded as the one>> >from whom the whole universe originates, in whom the whole universe>> >is stationed and into whom the whole universe merges at the time of>> >Destruction, the one who also takes the forms of Brahma, Vishnu,>> >Rudra, Indra, Agni etc etc. Only if you imagine such a higher>> >aakaasa tattva form of Ganesha that is close to formlessness can>> >Ganesha give you moksha.>>>> >>>> Similarly, with all higher deities who are muktas even as they>> >exist in a form, you can worship the lower form for specific limited>> >results or worship the higher forms that are close to formlessness>> >and get moksha from them.>>>> >>>> Enough for today..>>>> >>>> May the light of Brahman shine within,>>>> Narasimha>>>> ------------------------->>>> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net>>>> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org>>>> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org>>>> ------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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