For Rafal - Vedanta and its understanding

[Guest guest]

Namaskaar Sri Rafal and others who may be interested.

Sri Gurubhyoh Namah,

Harih Om

First of all, there

isn't a Mayavada. To call something as Maya-vada, it presupposes the existence

of Maya as a separate entity, which is not case. Therefore, Vedanta is

Brahman-vada and not Maya-vada.

QUESTIONING THE EXISTENCE OF MAYA

Maya the word is ma ya

– what is not. The existence of Maya depends upon the objects that are

perceived. When objects are not present, how can the Maya be said to exist. So

its very "existence" is dependent upon the non-existent objects.

Why don't the objects Exist?

The objects are

perceived. Our sight sense, eye, receives the light of a particular frequency. It

rejects certain frequencies of light. In

some cases it watches phenomenon like a mirage, which is an optical illusion.

Hence, perception is not a valid pramana for deciding Existence.

That they appear to

exist is a separate topic and can be discussed later.

Maya and Objects

Since the very

existence of objects is questionable, Maya's existence is questionable.

Therefore, Maya-vada is not a term to be used. Furthermore, it is healthy to

remember that Vedanta questions the very existence of Maya.

 

WAKING, DREAM and DEEP SLEEP

Playing a role of a

waker, you see the waking world and its objects. Playing the role of a dreamer,

the waking world is missing along with its objects. A new world arises and a

new you. So a dream you watches the dream world. There are many objects in the

dream world - many different and varied objects. Some objects you like, some

you hate, some you like to own, some you might want to get rid off.

So a Vedantin walks to

you and says, you and the world are the same. But you kick him aside and say

what nonsense. Look at the world, look at all its objects, how can this be me?

 

You say:

1. I perceive this

world, it must be real.

2. When I kick a

stone, I get hurt. The inference is that stone is hard and it cracks the bone

in my toe. So it is real.

3. The world seems to

have been put together intelligently. So there must be a greater force doing

all this. Let us call it Isvara. And since I am not that force, Isvara must be

something else.

So how dare you call

all this as Me alone! You must be a great sinner to equate yourself to Isvara.

Damn you! You shall rot in hell!

So the Vedantin smiles

and asks: Who are you?

You say I am XYZ.

Vedantin: That is only

a name.

You say I born of such

and such parents.

Vedantin: That is your

relation. But who are you?

You say I am this

body.

Vedantin: Oh, so you

mean to say it is your body that thinks, feels, and describes this universe. And

why do you call the body – "this" as if it is an external object?

You say: No! No! – I have a mind too.

Vedantin: You have a

mind? So does the body have a mind or mind has the body? And what do you mean

that you "have" a mind. This means you are the possessor of a mind and a body.

So mind and body are possessed by you. But I am asking a simple question – Who

are you? And not asking about what your possessions are?

This begins the

thinking.

Now, I want to ask you

– what is the dream world made up off? Who is the dream you? Are not both the same? Isn't the entire dream

born out of you and dissolves back into you? While the dream exists, the entire dream world

is made of you. Aren't you the material cause? Aren't you the efficient cause?

Aren't you the intelligent cause of this dream?

Now, you ask a

question in your dream? Why all this creation of the dream world? – If you were

in front of that person in his dream, what answer would you give him?

As the objects of the

dream are negated by waking, similarly the objects of the waking are negated by

the dream. They do not exist independently and are illusory in nature just as a

mirage.

 

CREATIONISM AND CREATOR

Let us say, Lord

created this world. That means Lord exists before the world. Since there was no

world, no universe, so only Lord existed. If this can be arrived at logically,

then, how, with what and where did he create this Universe? Let us say, he

created some space. Where can he create any space, as all is nothing but the

Lord! He cannot create something out of himself as there exists no out.

The other option is

that Lord is a small being who found himself in the midst of a vast space and

time. He was feeling bored and thought he could have some fun and created this

world and thought he could now rule over such people. If they do not pray to

him, he will send them to hell and if they pray to him, he will forgive their

sins and send them to heaven. In that case, can Lord be Real? Anything limited

in space and time is subject to change. That means Lord can have change. That

also means Lord can change his mind and start sending sinners to heaven and

saints to hell! So you see, wild imaginations can give birth too many

philosophies and many "saints" and their followers. Of course, besides the

above reasoning, this assumption is also negated by the Scriptures.

 

So if there is a

world, it has to exist within the lord for the so called space cannot exist

anyplace outside of itself and of the Lord. It will be a contradiction. Now

what will the Lord make the world with. What material will he use? Lord can

only use himself as a material as nothing else exists. So material cause of the

world, is Lord. By what means would the Lord create the world? He has only

himself. So it is by himself he creates the world, so he becomes the efficient

cause. Now, to create something some intelligence is needed. By whose

intelligence did Lord create the world? Since he alone is, it has to be his own

intelligence.

So world is made up of

the Lord, by the Lord, and through the Lord. How is it, then, different from

the Lord?

Atleast this should be

understood intellectually. Tarka can be used initially before it too is given

up.

 

WORLD, SENSES, MIND, CONSCIOUSNESS

Who is the Gyata of

the world? - The Senses.

Who is the Gyata of

the senses? – The Mind.

Who is the Gyata of

the mind? – The Consciousness

So you see, the very

"reality" of the world is dependent upon the Senses and this is viewed by the

mind. Mind is evident only in light of consciousness. The very existence of the senses and the mind

is dependent. So the world, that is dependent upon the dependent, cannot

independently exist.

Therefore, even by not

taking the Shruti/Vedanta as a pramana, one can analyze and understand the

nature of the World to be illusory.

If you read the above with a contemplative and an open mind, you shall see much

truth and many more questions will arise. Please make a list of those questions

and start seeking the knowledge of the subject with honesty and sincerity.

Swami Rama Tirtha says

that if you are thirsty for knowledge, a master will come to your doorsteps and

teach you. What is the pramana for such a statement? – Sri Ramakrishna

Paramhansa came for Swami Vivekananda. Furthermore, there is a beautiful

statement – Perfect master – Perfect Disciple. People tend to search for

Perfect Master. Tell me how will you recognize one? Can the dreamer know who is

woken up? So the whole process of finding a Perfect Master is silly. It is best

to be a perfect disciple. Open yourself to knowledge and inculcate the values

of a disciple. Do we have a pramana for this? Yoga Vashishtha….is the pramana.

Lord Rama is a perfect disciple and Sage Vashishta is a perfect master.

Vedanta usually comes

in strong but small dosages. I shall end this email now and pray you find your

learning or shall we say unlearning!

Aum Purnamadah Purnamidam Purnat Purnamudachyate

 

Purnasya

Purnamadaya Purnameva Vashsihate

Shantih! Shantih! Shantih!

 

Thanks and RegardsBharat

P.S: Kindly excuse this email as I had promised Sri Rafal that I would write to him regarding the same.

 

[Guest guest]

vyam vyasadevaya namah

Dear Sri Bharat,

 

Namaskar.

 

Thank You very much for Your effort. I really care.

 

Regards

Rafal Gendarz

 

 

 

 

-

Bharat Hindu Astrology

sohamsa

Saturday, June 03, 2006 11:50 PM

For Rafal - Vedanta and its understanding

 

Namaskaar Sri Rafal and others who may be interested.

Sri Gurubhyoh Namah, Harih Om

First of all, there isn't a Mayavada. To call something as Maya-vada, it presupposes the existence of Maya as a separate entity, which is not case. Therefore, Vedanta is Brahman-vada and not Maya-vada.

QUESTIONING THE EXISTENCE OF MAYA

Maya the word is ma ya – what is not. The existence of Maya depends upon the objects that are perceived. When objects are not present, how can the Maya be said to exist. So its very "existence" is dependent upon the non-existent objects.

Why don't the objects Exist?

The objects are perceived. Our sight sense, eye, receives the light of a particular frequency. It rejects certain frequencies of light. In some cases it watches phenomenon like a mirage, which is an optical illusion. Hence, perception is not a valid pramana for deciding Existence.

That they appear to exist is a separate topic and can be discussed later.

Maya and Objects

Since the very existence of objects is questionable, Maya's existence is questionable. Therefore, Maya-vada is not a term to be used. Furthermore, it is healthy to remember that Vedanta questions the very existence of Maya.

 

WAKING, DREAM and DEEP SLEEP

Playing a role of a waker, you see the waking world and its objects. Playing the role of a dreamer, the waking world is missing along with its objects. A new world arises and a new you. So a dream you watches the dream world. There are many objects in the dream world - many different and varied objects. Some objects you like, some you hate, some you like to own, some you might want to get rid off.

So a Vedantin walks to you and says, you and the world are the same. But you kick him aside and say what nonsense. Look at the world, look at all its objects, how can this be me?

 

You say:

1. I perceive this world, it must be real.

2. When I kick a stone, I get hurt. The inference is that stone is hard and it cracks the bone in my toe. So it is real.

3. The world seems to have been put together intelligently. So there must be a greater force doing all this. Let us call it Isvara. And since I am not that force, Isvara must be something else.

So how dare you call all this as Me alone! You must be a great sinner to equate yourself to Isvara. Damn you! You shall rot in hell!

So the Vedantin smiles and asks: Who are you?

You say I am XYZ.

Vedantin: That is only a name.

You say I born of such and such parents.

Vedantin: That is your relation. But who are you?

You say I am this body.

Vedantin: Oh, so you mean to say it is your body that thinks, feels, and describes this universe. And why do you call the body – "this" as if it is an external object?

You say: No! No! – I have a mind too.

Vedantin: You have a mind? So does the body have a mind or mind has the body? And what do you mean that you "have" a mind. This means you are the possessor of a mind and a body. So mind and body are possessed by you. But I am asking a simple question – Who are you? And not asking about what your possessions are?

This begins the thinking.

Now, I want to ask you – what is the dream world made up off? Who is the dream you? Are not both the same? Isn't the entire dream born out of you and dissolves back into you? While the dream exists, the entire dream world is made of you. Aren't you the material cause? Aren't you the efficient cause? Aren't you the intelligent cause of this dream?

Now, you ask a question in your dream? Why all this creation of the dream world? – If you were in front of that person in his dream, what answer would you give him?

As the objects of the dream are negated by waking, similarly the objects of the waking are negated by the dream. They do not exist independently and are illusory in nature just as a mirage.

 

CREATIONISM AND CREATOR

Let us say, Lord created this world. That means Lord exists before the world. Since there was no world, no universe, so only Lord existed. If this can be arrived at logically, then, how, with what and where did he create this Universe? Let us say, he created some space. Where can he create any space, as all is nothing but the Lord! He cannot create something out of himself as there exists no out.

The other option is that Lord is a small being who found himself in the midst of a vast space and time. He was feeling bored and thought he could have some fun and created this world and thought he could now rule over such people. If they do not pray to him, he will send them to hell and if they pray to him, he will forgive their sins and send them to heaven. In that case, can Lord be Real? Anything limited in space and time is subject to change. That means Lord can have change. That also means Lord can change his mind and start sending sinners to heaven and saints to hell! So you see, wild imaginations can give birth too many philosophies and many "saints" and their followers. Of course, besides the above reasoning, this assumption is also negated by the Scriptures.

 

So if there is a world, it has to exist within the lord for the so called space cannot exist anyplace outside of itself and of the Lord. It will be a contradiction. Now what will the Lord make the world with. What material will he use? Lord can only use himself as a material as nothing else exists. So material cause of the world, is Lord. By what means would the Lord create the world? He has only himself. So it is by himself he creates the world, so he becomes the efficient cause. Now, to create something some intelligence is needed. By whose intelligence did Lord create the world? Since he alone is, it has to be his own intelligence.

So world is made up of the Lord, by the Lord, and through the Lord. How is it, then, different from the Lord?

Atleast this should be understood intellectually. Tarka can be used initially before it too is given up.

 

WORLD, SENSES, MIND, CONSCIOUSNESS

Who is the Gyata of the world? - The Senses.

Who is the Gyata of the senses? – The Mind.

Who is the Gyata of the mind? – The Consciousness

So you see, the very "reality" of the world is dependent upon the Senses and this is viewed by the mind. Mind is evident only in light of consciousness. The very existence of the senses and the mind is dependent. So the world, that is dependent upon the dependent, cannot independently exist.

Therefore, even by not taking the Shruti/Vedanta as a pramana, one can analyze and understand the nature of the World to be illusory.

If you read the above with a contemplative and an open mind, you shall see much truth and many more questions will arise. Please make a list of those questions and start seeking the knowledge of the subject with honesty and sincerity.

Swami Rama Tirtha says that if you are thirsty for knowledge, a master will come to your doorsteps and teach you. What is the pramana for such a statement? – Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa came for Swami Vivekananda. Furthermore, there is a beautiful statement – Perfect master – Perfect Disciple. People tend to search for Perfect Master. Tell me how will you recognize one? Can the dreamer know who is woken up? So the whole process of finding a Perfect Master is silly. It is best to be a perfect disciple. Open yourself to knowledge and inculcate the values of a disciple. Do we have a pramana for this? Yoga Vashishtha….is the pramana. Lord Rama is a perfect disciple and Sage Vashishta is a perfect master.

Vedanta usually comes in strong but small dosages. I shall end this email now and pray you find your learning or shall we say unlearning!

Aum Purnamadah Purnamidam Purnat Purnamudachyate

Purnasya Purnamadaya Purnameva VashsihateShantih! Shantih! Shantih!

 

Thanks and Regards

Bharat

P.S: Kindly excuse this email as I had promised Sri Rafal that I would write to him regarding the same.

 

[Guest guest]

Om bR^ihaspataye namaH

 

Dear

Rafal,

Namaste

 

Due to our

attachments, we take birth in this life according to our past unfulfilled

material desires.

Vitiated

by attachments, passion and sense gratification (look at the guna in the 7th

from Karakamsa), the mind thinks thus:

 

That Brahma is the cause of the Universe

That Shiva is the greatest

That Vishnu is the Supreme.

 

 

In reality,

we are subjected to the causal effects due to the deluding forms of the GUNAS,

hence – the Brahmavadin understands only ONE Purusa.

Of the

THREE Gunas, if we worship ONE, we worship ALL three as they form the 12 units

of time (Jaimini). So we should understand the Supreme as One. The resurgence

of the dominance of Sattva becomes the Purusa.

Originally,

all crystals are white, due to contact with chrome, colours it red etc. Like

this, His single entity has 3 forms – Purusa/Sattva; Brahma-Creator/Rajas;

Shiva- Annihilator/Tamas. All three modes work for diverse purposes but they

are non different as they also permeate the pisacas and humans. The root word

of Vish means to permeate.

 

Love,

Swee

 

 

 

 

 

sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of Rafal Gendarz

Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:21

AM

sohamsa

Re: For Rafal -

Vedanta and its understanding

 

 

 

vyam vyasadevaya namah

 

 

Dear Sri Bharat,

 

 

 

 

 

Namaskar.

 

 

 

 

 

Thank You very much for Your effort. I really care.

 

 

 

 

 

Regards

 

 

Rafal Gendarz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

 

 

Bharat

Hindu Astrology

 

 

sohamsa

 

 

 

Saturday, June 03,

2006 11:50 PM

 

 

For

Rafal - Vedanta and its understanding

 

 

 

 

Namaskaar

Sri Rafal and others who may be interested.

Sri

Gurubhyoh Namah, Harih Om

First

of all, there isn't a Mayavada. To call something as Maya-vada, it presupposes

the existence of Maya as a separate entity, which is not case. Therefore,

Vedanta is Brahman-vada and not Maya-vada.

QUESTIONING THE EXISTENCE OF MAYA

Maya

the word is ma ya – what is not. The existence of Maya depends upon the

objects that are perceived. When objects are not present, how can the Maya be

said to exist. So its very " existence " is dependent upon the

non-existent objects.

Why don't the objects Exist?

The

objects are perceived. Our sight sense, eye, receives the light of a particular

frequency. It rejects certain frequencies of light. In some cases it

watches phenomenon like a mirage, which is an optical illusion. Hence,

perception is not a valid pramana for deciding Existence.

That

they appear to exist is a separate topic and can be discussed later.

Maya and Objects

Since

the very existence of objects is questionable, Maya's existence is

questionable. Therefore, Maya-vada is not a term to be used. Furthermore, it is

healthy to remember that Vedanta questions the very existence of Maya.

 

WAKING, DREAM and DEEP SLEEP

Playing

a role of a waker, you see the waking world and its objects. Playing the role

of a dreamer, the waking world is missing along with its objects. A new world

arises and a new you. So a dream you watches the dream world. There are many

objects in the dream world - many different and varied objects. Some objects

you like, some you hate, some you like to own, some you might want to get rid

off.

So

a Vedantin walks to you and says, you and the world are the same. But you kick

him aside and say what nonsense. Look at the world, look at all its objects,

how can this be me?

 

You say:

1.

I perceive this world, it must be real.

2.

When I kick a stone, I get hurt. The inference is that stone is hard and it

cracks the bone in my toe. So it is real.

3.

The world seems to have been put together intelligently. So there must be a

greater force doing all this. Let us call it Isvara. And since I am not that

force, Isvara must be something else.

So

how dare you call all this as Me alone! You must be a great sinner to equate

yourself to Isvara. Damn you! You shall rot in hell!

So

the Vedantin smiles and asks: Who are you?

You

say I am XYZ.

Vedantin:

That is only a name.

You

say I born of such and such parents.

Vedantin:

That is your relation. But who are you?

You

say I am this body.

Vedantin:

Oh, so you mean to say it is your body that thinks, feels, and describes this

universe. And why do you call the body – " this " as if it is an

external object?

You

say: No! No! – I have a mind too.

Vedantin:

You have a mind? So does the body have a mind or mind has the body? And what do

you mean that you " have " a mind. This means you are the possessor of

a mind and a body. So mind and body are possessed by you. But I am asking a

simple question – Who are you? And not asking about what your possessions

are?

This

begins the thinking.

Now,

I want to ask you – what is the dream world made up off? Who is the dream

you? Are not both the same? Isn't the entire dream born out of you and

dissolves back into you? While the dream exists, the entire dream world

is made of you. Aren't you the material cause? Aren't you the efficient cause?

Aren't you the intelligent cause of this dream?

Now,

you ask a question in your dream? Why all this creation of the dream world? –

If you were in front of that person in his dream, what answer would you give

him?

As

the objects of the dream are negated by waking, similarly the objects of the

waking are negated by the dream. They do not exist independently and are

illusory in nature just as a mirage.

 

CREATIONISM AND CREATOR

Let

us say, Lord created this world. That means Lord exists before the world. Since

there was no world, no universe, so only Lord existed. If this can be arrived

at logically, then, how, with what and where did he create this Universe? Let

us say, he created some space. Where can he create any space, as all is nothing

but the Lord! He cannot create something out of himself as there exists no out.

 

The

other option is that Lord is a small being who found himself in the midst of a

vast space and time. He was feeling bored and thought he could have some fun

and created this world and thought he could now rule over such people. If they

do not pray to him, he will send them to hell and if they pray to him, he will

forgive their sins and send them to heaven. In that case, can Lord be Real?

Anything limited in space and time is subject to change. That means Lord can

have change. That also means Lord can change his mind and start sending sinners

to heaven and saints to hell! So you see, wild imaginations can give birth too

many philosophies and many " saints " and their followers. Of course,

besides the above reasoning, this assumption is also negated by the Scriptures.

 

 

So

if there is a world, it has to exist within the lord for the so called space

cannot exist anyplace outside of itself and of the Lord. It will be a

contradiction. Now what will the Lord make the world with. What material will

he use? Lord can only use himself as a material as nothing else exists. So

material cause of the world, is Lord. By what means would the Lord create the

world? He has only himself. So it is by himself he creates the world, so he

becomes the efficient cause. Now, to create something some intelligence is

needed. By whose intelligence did Lord create the world? Since he alone is, it

has to be his own intelligence.

So

world is made up of the Lord, by the Lord, and through the Lord. How is it,

then, different from the Lord?

Atleast

this should be understood intellectually. Tarka can be used initially before it

too is given up.

 

WORLD, SENSES, MIND, CONSCIOUSNESS

Who

is the Gyata of the world? - The Senses.

Who

is the Gyata of the senses? – The Mind.

Who

is the Gyata of the mind? – The Consciousness

So

you see, the very " reality " of the world is dependent upon the Senses

and this is viewed by the mind. Mind is evident only in light of consciousness.

The very existence of the senses and the mind is dependent. So the world, that

is dependent upon the dependent, cannot independently exist.

Therefore,

even by not taking the Shruti/Vedanta as a pramana, one can analyze and

understand the nature of the World to be illusory.

If

you read the above with a contemplative and an open mind, you shall see much

truth and many more questions will arise. Please make a list of those questions

and start seeking the knowledge of the subject with honesty and sincerity.

Swami

Rama Tirtha says that if you are thirsty for knowledge, a master will come to

your doorsteps and teach you. What is the pramana for such a statement? –

Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa came for Swami Vivekananda. Furthermore, there is a

beautiful statement – Perfect master – Perfect Disciple. People

tend to search for Perfect Master. Tell me how will you recognize one? Can the

dreamer know who is woken up? So the whole process of finding a Perfect Master

is silly. It is best to be a perfect disciple. Open yourself to knowledge and

inculcate the values of a disciple. Do we have a pramana for this? Yoga

Vashishtha….is the pramana. Lord Rama is a perfect disciple and Sage

Vashishta is a perfect master.

Vedanta

usually comes in strong but small dosages. I shall end this email now and pray

you find your learning or shall we say unlearning!

Aum Purnamadah Purnamidam Purnat Purnamudachyate

Purnasya Purnamadaya Purnameva Vashsihate

Shantih! Shantih! Shantih!

 

Thanks and Regards

Bharat

P.S:

Kindly excuse this email as I had promised Sri Rafal that I would write to him regarding

the same.

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Swee,

 

Yes.. I understand, Madhavacarya tell us that above this ONE Substance there is personality behind all this Gunas of Deities working in tri-guna world with all rupa's / guna's / lila's. The concept is that above material world there is brahman which is sa-guna.

 

Regards

 

 

 

Rafal Gendarz

 

 

-

Swee Chan

sohamsa

Sunday, June 04, 2006 12:26 PM

RE: For Rafal - Vedanta and its understanding

 

 

Om bR^ihaspataye namaH

 

Dear Rafal,

Namaste

 

Due to our attachments, we take birth in this life according to our past unfulfilled material desires.

Vitiated by attachments, passion and sense gratification (look at the guna in the 7th from Karakamsa), the mind thinks thus:

 

That Brahma is the cause of the Universe That Shiva is the greatest That Vishnu is the Supreme.

 

In reality, we are subjected to the causal effects due to the deluding forms of the GUNAS, hence – the Brahmavadin understands only ONE Purusa.

Of the THREE Gunas, if we worship ONE, we worship ALL three as they form the 12 units of time (Jaimini). So we should understand the Supreme as One. The resurgence of the dominance of Sattva becomes the Purusa.

Originally, all crystals are white, due to contact with chrome, colours it red etc. Like this, His single entity has 3 forms – Purusa/Sattva; Brahma-Creator/Rajas; Shiva- Annihilator/Tamas. All three modes work for diverse purposes but they are non different as they also permeate the pisacas and humans. The root word of Vish means to permeate.

 

Love,

Swee

 

 

 

 

 

sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of Rafal GendarzSunday, June 04, 2006 12:21 AMsohamsa Subject: Re: For Rafal - Vedanta and its understanding

 

 

vyam vyasadevaya namah

 

Dear Sri Bharat,

 

 

 

Namaskar.

 

 

 

Thank You very much for Your effort. I really care.

 

 

 

Regards

 

Rafal Gendarz

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

-

 

Bharat Hindu Astrology

 

sohamsa

 

Saturday, June 03, 2006 11:50 PM

 

For Rafal - Vedanta and its understanding

 

 

Namaskaar Sri Rafal and others who may be interested.

Sri Gurubhyoh Namah, Harih Om

First of all, there isn't a Mayavada. To call something as Maya-vada, it presupposes the existence of Maya as a separate entity, which is not case. Therefore, Vedanta is Brahman-vada and not Maya-vada.

QUESTIONING THE EXISTENCE OF MAYA

Maya the word is ma ya – what is not. The existence of Maya depends upon the objects that are perceived. When objects are not present, how can the Maya be said to exist. So its very "existence" is dependent upon the non-existent objects.

Why don't the objects Exist?

The objects are perceived. Our sight sense, eye, receives the light of a particular frequency. It rejects certain frequencies of light. In some cases it watches phenomenon like a mirage, which is an optical illusion. Hence, perception is not a valid pramana for deciding Existence.

That they appear to exist is a separate topic and can be discussed later.

Maya and Objects

Since the very existence of objects is questionable, Maya's existence is questionable. Therefore, Maya-vada is not a term to be used. Furthermore, it is healthy to remember that Vedanta questions the very existence of Maya.

 

WAKING, DREAM and DEEP SLEEP

Playing a role of a waker, you see the waking world and its objects. Playing the role of a dreamer, the waking world is missing along with its objects. A new world arises and a new you. So a dream you watches the dream world. There are many objects in the dream world - many different and varied objects. Some objects you like, some you hate, some you like to own, some you might want to get rid off.

So a Vedantin walks to you and says, you and the world are the same. But you kick him aside and say what nonsense. Look at the world, look at all its objects, how can this be me?

 

You say:

1. I perceive this world, it must be real.

2. When I kick a stone, I get hurt. The inference is that stone is hard and it cracks the bone in my toe. So it is real.

3. The world seems to have been put together intelligently. So there must be a greater force doing all this. Let us call it Isvara. And since I am not that force, Isvara must be something else.

So how dare you call all this as Me alone! You must be a great sinner to equate yourself to Isvara. Damn you! You shall rot in hell!

So the Vedantin smiles and asks: Who are you?

You say I am XYZ.

Vedantin: That is only a name.

You say I born of such and such parents.

Vedantin: That is your relation. But who are you?

You say I am this body.

Vedantin: Oh, so you mean to say it is your body that thinks, feels, and describes this universe. And why do you call the body – "this" as if it is an external object?

You say: No! No! – I have a mind too.

Vedantin: You have a mind? So does the body have a mind or mind has the body? And what do you mean that you "have" a mind. This means you are the possessor of a mind and a body. So mind and body are possessed by you. But I am asking a simple question – Who are you? And not asking about what your possessions are?

This begins the thinking.

Now, I want to ask you – what is the dream world made up off? Who is the dream you? Are not both the same? Isn't the entire dream born out of you and dissolves back into you? While the dream exists, the entire dream world is made of you. Aren't you the material cause? Aren't you the efficient cause? Aren't you the intelligent cause of this dream?

Now, you ask a question in your dream? Why all this creation of the dream world? – If you were in front of that person in his dream, what answer would you give him?

As the objects of the dream are negated by waking, similarly the objects of the waking are negated by the dream. They do not exist independently and are illusory in nature just as a mirage.

 

CREATIONISM AND CREATOR

Let us say, Lord created this world. That means Lord exists before the world. Since there was no world, no universe, so only Lord existed. If this can be arrived at logically, then, how, with what and where did he create this Universe? Let us say, he created some space. Where can he create any space, as all is nothing but the Lord! He cannot create something out of himself as there exists no out.

The other option is that Lord is a small being who found himself in the midst of a vast space and time. He was feeling bored and thought he could have some fun and created this world and thought he could now rule over such people. If they do not pray to him, he will send them to hell and if they pray to him, he will forgive their sins and send them to heaven. In that case, can Lord be Real? Anything limited in space and time is subject to change. That means Lord can have change. That also means Lord can change his mind and start sending sinners to heaven and saints to hell! So you see, wild imaginations can give birth too many philosophies and many "saints" and their followers. Of course, besides the above reasoning, this assumption is also negated by the Scriptures.

 

So if there is a world, it has to exist within the lord for the so called space cannot exist anyplace outside of itself and of the Lord. It will be a contradiction. Now what will the Lord make the world with. What material will he use? Lord can only use himself as a material as nothing else exists. So material cause of the world, is Lord. By what means would the Lord create the world? He has only himself. So it is by himself he creates the world, so he becomes the efficient cause. Now, to create something some intelligence is needed. By whose intelligence did Lord create the world? Since he alone is, it has to be his own intelligence.

So world is made up of the Lord, by the Lord, and through the Lord. How is it, then, different from the Lord?

Atleast this should be understood intellectually. Tarka can be used initially before it too is given up.

 

WORLD, SENSES, MIND, CONSCIOUSNESS

Who is the Gyata of the world? - The Senses.

Who is the Gyata of the senses? – The Mind.

Who is the Gyata of the mind? – The Consciousness

So you see, the very "reality" of the world is dependent upon the Senses and this is viewed by the mind. Mind is evident only in light of consciousness. The very existence of the senses and the mind is dependent. So the world, that is dependent upon the dependent, cannot independently exist.

Therefore, even by not taking the Shruti/Vedanta as a pramana, one can analyze and understand the nature of the World to be illusory.

If you read the above with a contemplative and an open mind, you shall see much truth and many more questions will arise. Please make a list of those questions and start seeking the knowledge of the subject with honesty and sincerity.

Swami Rama Tirtha says that if you are thirsty for knowledge, a master will come to your doorsteps and teach you. What is the pramana for such a statement? – Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa came for Swami Vivekananda. Furthermore, there is a beautiful statement – Perfect master – Perfect Disciple. People tend to search for Perfect Master. Tell me how will you recognize one? Can the dreamer know who is woken up? So the whole process of finding a Perfect Master is silly. It is best to be a perfect disciple. Open yourself to knowledge and inculcate the values of a disciple. Do we have a pramana for this? Yoga Vashishtha….is the pramana. Lord Rama is a perfect disciple and Sage Vashishta is a perfect master.

Vedanta usually comes in strong but small dosages. I shall end this email now and pray you find your learning or shall we say unlearning!

Aum Purnamadah Purnamidam Purnat Purnamudachyate

Purnasya Purnamadaya Purnameva Vashsihate

Shantih! Shantih! Shantih!

Thanks and Regards

Bharat

P.S: Kindly excuse this email as I had promised Sri Rafal that I would write to him regarding the same.

 

[Guest guest]

vyam vyasadevaya namah

Dear Bharat,

 

 

I found this on net:

 

The following points suggest that according to Shankara, the world is not false (Shankara himself gave most of the arguments):

 

If the world were false, then with the liberation of the first human being, the world would have been annihilated. However, the world continues to exist even if a human attains liberation.

Shankara believes in Karma, or good actions. This is a feature of this world. So the world cannot be false.

The Supreme Reality Brahman is the basis of this world. The world is like its reflection. Hence the world cannot be totally false.

False is something which is ascribed to inexistent things, like Sky-lotus. The world is a logical thing which is perceived by our senses.

This is interesting because if we deny the existence of illusion & object(completely) then its similar to voidism of Buddhism(yes, here there is no Brahman substance) which I doesnt feel intuintively(it can be poor argument for someone..).

 

Regards

Rafal Gendarz

 

 

 

-

Bharat Hindu Astrology

sohamsa

Saturday, June 03, 2006 11:50 PM

For Rafal - Vedanta and its understanding

 

Namaskaar Sri Rafal and others who may be interested.

Sri Gurubhyoh Namah, Harih Om

First of all, there isn't a Mayavada. To call something as Maya-vada, it presupposes the existence of Maya as a separate entity, which is not case. Therefore, Vedanta is Brahman-vada and not Maya-vada.

QUESTIONING THE EXISTENCE OF MAYA

Maya the word is ma ya – what is not. The existence of Maya depends upon the objects that are perceived. When objects are not present, how can the Maya be said to exist. So its very "existence" is dependent upon the non-existent objects.

Why don't the objects Exist?

The objects are perceived. Our sight sense, eye, receives the light of a particular frequency. It rejects certain frequencies of light. In some cases it watches phenomenon like a mirage, which is an optical illusion. Hence, perception is not a valid pramana for deciding Existence.

That they appear to exist is a separate topic and can be discussed later.

Maya and Objects

Since the very existence of objects is questionable, Maya's existence is questionable. Therefore, Maya-vada is not a term to be used. Furthermore, it is healthy to remember that Vedanta questions the very existence of Maya.

 

WAKING, DREAM and DEEP SLEEP

Playing a role of a waker, you see the waking world and its objects. Playing the role of a dreamer, the waking world is missing along with its objects. A new world arises and a new you. So a dream you watches the dream world. There are many objects in the dream world - many different and varied objects. Some objects you like, some you hate, some you like to own, some you might want to get rid off.

So a Vedantin walks to you and says, you and the world are the same. But you kick him aside and say what nonsense. Look at the world, look at all its objects, how can this be me?

 

You say:

1. I perceive this world, it must be real.

2. When I kick a stone, I get hurt. The inference is that stone is hard and it cracks the bone in my toe. So it is real.

3. The world seems to have been put together intelligently. So there must be a greater force doing all this. Let us call it Isvara. And since I am not that force, Isvara must be something else.

So how dare you call all this as Me alone! You must be a great sinner to equate yourself to Isvara. Damn you! You shall rot in hell!

So the Vedantin smiles and asks: Who are you?

You say I am XYZ.

Vedantin: That is only a name.

You say I born of such and such parents.

Vedantin: That is your relation. But who are you?

You say I am this body.

Vedantin: Oh, so you mean to say it is your body that thinks, feels, and describes this universe. And why do you call the body – "this" as if it is an external object?

You say: No! No! – I have a mind too.

Vedantin: You have a mind? So does the body have a mind or mind has the body? And what do you mean that you "have" a mind. This means you are the possessor of a mind and a body. So mind and body are possessed by you. But I am asking a simple question – Who are you? And not asking about what your possessions are?

This begins the thinking.

Now, I want to ask you – what is the dream world made up off? Who is the dream you? Are not both the same? Isn't the entire dream born out of you and dissolves back into you? While the dream exists, the entire dream world is made of you. Aren't you the material cause? Aren't you the efficient cause? Aren't you the intelligent cause of this dream?

Now, you ask a question in your dream? Why all this creation of the dream world? – If you were in front of that person in his dream, what answer would you give him?

As the objects of the dream are negated by waking, similarly the objects of the waking are negated by the dream. They do not exist independently and are illusory in nature just as a mirage.

 

CREATIONISM AND CREATOR

Let us say, Lord created this world. That means Lord exists before the world. Since there was no world, no universe, so only Lord existed. If this can be arrived at logically, then, how, with what and where did he create this Universe? Let us say, he created some space. Where can he create any space, as all is nothing but the Lord! He cannot create something out of himself as there exists no out.

The other option is that Lord is a small being who found himself in the midst of a vast space and time. He was feeling bored and thought he could have some fun and created this world and thought he could now rule over such people. If they do not pray to him, he will send them to hell and if they pray to him, he will forgive their sins and send them to heaven. In that case, can Lord be Real? Anything limited in space and time is subject to change. That means Lord can have change. That also means Lord can change his mind and start sending sinners to heaven and saints to hell! So you see, wild imaginations can give birth too many philosophies and many "saints" and their followers. Of course, besides the above reasoning, this assumption is also negated by the Scriptures.

 

So if there is a world, it has to exist within the lord for the so called space cannot exist anyplace outside of itself and of the Lord. It will be a contradiction. Now what will the Lord make the world with. What material will he use? Lord can only use himself as a material as nothing else exists. So material cause of the world, is Lord. By what means would the Lord create the world? He has only himself. So it is by himself he creates the world, so he becomes the efficient cause. Now, to create something some intelligence is needed. By whose intelligence did Lord create the world? Since he alone is, it has to be his own intelligence.

So world is made up of the Lord, by the Lord, and through the Lord. How is it, then, different from the Lord?

Atleast this should be understood intellectually. Tarka can be used initially before it too is given up.

 

WORLD, SENSES, MIND, CONSCIOUSNESS

Who is the Gyata of the world? - The Senses.

Who is the Gyata of the senses? – The Mind.

Who is the Gyata of the mind? – The Consciousness

So you see, the very "reality" of the world is dependent upon the Senses and this is viewed by the mind. Mind is evident only in light of consciousness. The very existence of the senses and the mind is dependent. So the world, that is dependent upon the dependent, cannot independently exist.

Therefore, even by not taking the Shruti/Vedanta as a pramana, one can analyze and understand the nature of the World to be illusory.

If you read the above with a contemplative and an open mind, you shall see much truth and many more questions will arise. Please make a list of those questions and start seeking the knowledge of the subject with honesty and sincerity.

Swami Rama Tirtha says that if you are thirsty for knowledge, a master will come to your doorsteps and teach you. What is the pramana for such a statement? – Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa came for Swami Vivekananda. Furthermore, there is a beautiful statement – Perfect master – Perfect Disciple. People tend to search for Perfect Master. Tell me how will you recognize one? Can the dreamer know who is woken up? So the whole process of finding a Perfect Master is silly. It is best to be a perfect disciple. Open yourself to knowledge and inculcate the values of a disciple. Do we have a pramana for this? Yoga Vashishtha….is the pramana. Lord Rama is a perfect disciple and Sage Vashishta is a perfect master.

Vedanta usually comes in strong but small dosages. I shall end this email now and pray you find your learning or shall we say unlearning!

Aum Purnamadah Purnamidam Purnat Purnamudachyate

Purnasya Purnamadaya Purnameva VashsihateShantih! Shantih! Shantih!

 

Thanks and Regards

Bharat

P.S: Kindly excuse this email as I had promised Sri Rafal that I would write to him regarding the same.

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Sri RafalNow, we are coming to a discussion on the World. Since world is nothing but Brahman, so it isn't false. What is false is that you see it separate from Brahman. That is why, if you refer to my first post on this subject to you, I have stated World is - Satyam, Jnanam, Anantam, Naam and Rupa. Naam and Rupa are false, Satyam, Jnanam and Anantam is Brahman.

The second statement being used as an argument shows the wrong understanding that actions will cease, once Brahman is known. Actions done to " complete " onself is born out of avidya. Actions that flow due to compassion in completeness, is not born out of avidya. Lord Krishna teaches Arjuna, not because he has a desire to teach or desire to change Arjuna's views. It is only out of compassion that he instructs as Arjuna surrenders before him. The 3rd and 4th point are the same as the 1st. If you read my last post, the one before this, it is clear that the Truth of the object is Brahman. So it can never be void as is considered by some sects of Buddhism. Which is what Sri Adi Sankara says in his commentaries upon the Upanishads. So object does not exist means - that the object is not separate from Brahman with an individual existence. It is Brahman only. I know I deliberately held this back, as I wanted not to include too much and let you do the thinking. Therefore, what Sri Adi Sankara says is very clear. To the individual - he says that the world that you see separately from yourself, ain't so and proves it - Shruti being a pramana.Do not jump to conclusions so quickly. There is lot more still. Thanks and RegardsBharatOn 6/5/06, Rafal Gendarz <starsuponme wrote:

 

 

vyam vyasadevaya namah

Dear Bharat,

 

 

I found this on net:

 

The following points suggest that according to Shankara, the world is not false (Shankara himself gave most of the arguments):

 

If the world were false, then with the liberation of the first human being, the world would have been annihilated. However, the world continues to exist even if a human attains liberation.

Shankara believes in Karma, or good actions. This is a feature of this world. So the world cannot be false.

The Supreme Reality Brahman is the basis of this world. The world is like its reflection. Hence the world cannot be totally false.

False is something which is ascribed to inexistent things, like Sky-lotus. The world is a logical thing which is perceived by our senses.

This is interesting because if we deny the existence of illusion & object(completely) then its similar to voidism of Buddhism(yes, here there is no Brahman substance) which I doesnt feel intuintively(it can be poor argument for someone..).

 

Regards

Rafal Gendarz

 

 

 

-

 

Bharat Hindu Astrology

 

sohamsa

Saturday, June 03, 2006 11:50 PM

For Rafal - Vedanta and its understanding

 

Namaskaar Sri Rafal and others who may be interested.

Sri Gurubhyoh Namah, Harih Om

First of all, there isn't a Mayavada. To call something as Maya-vada, it presupposes the existence of Maya as a separate entity, which is not case. Therefore, Vedanta is Brahman-vada and not Maya-vada.

QUESTIONING THE EXISTENCE OF MAYA

Maya the word is ma ya – what is not. The existence of Maya depends upon the objects that are perceived. When objects are not present, how can the Maya be said to exist. So its very " existence " is dependent upon the non-existent objects.

Why don't the objects Exist?

The objects are perceived. Our sight sense, eye, receives the light of a particular frequency. It rejects certain frequencies of light. In some cases it watches phenomenon like a mirage, which is an optical illusion. Hence, perception is not a valid pramana for deciding Existence.

That they appear to exist is a separate topic and can be discussed later.

Maya and Objects

Since the very existence of objects is questionable, Maya's existence is questionable. Therefore, Maya-vada is not a term to be used. Furthermore, it is healthy to remember that Vedanta questions the very existence of Maya.

 

WAKING, DREAM and DEEP SLEEP

Playing a role of a waker, you see the waking world and its objects. Playing the role of a dreamer, the waking world is missing along with its objects. A new world arises and a new you. So a dream you watches the dream world. There are many objects in the dream world - many different and varied objects. Some objects you like, some you hate, some you like to own, some you might want to get rid off.

So a Vedantin walks to you and says, you and the world are the same. But you kick him aside and say what nonsense. Look at the world, look at all its objects, how can this be me?

 

You say:

1. I perceive this world, it must be real.

2. When I kick a stone, I get hurt. The inference is that stone is hard and it cracks the bone in my toe. So it is real.

3. The world seems to have been put together intelligently. So there must be a greater force doing all this. Let us call it Isvara. And since I am not that force, Isvara must be something else.

So how dare you call all this as Me alone! You must be a great sinner to equate yourself to Isvara. Damn you! You shall rot in hell!

So the Vedantin smiles and asks: Who are you?

You say I am XYZ.

Vedantin: That is only a name.

You say I born of such and such parents.

Vedantin: That is your relation. But who are you?

You say I am this body.

Vedantin: Oh, so you mean to say it is your body that thinks, feels, and describes this universe. And why do you call the body – " this " as if it is an external object?

You say: No! No! – I have a mind too.

Vedantin: You have a mind? So does the body have a mind or mind has the body? And what do you mean that you " have " a mind. This means you are the possessor of a mind and a body. So mind and body are possessed by you. But I am asking a simple question – Who are you? And not asking about what your possessions are?

This begins the thinking.

Now, I want to ask you – what is the dream world made up off? Who is the dream you? Are not both the same? Isn't the entire dream born out of you and dissolves back into you? While the dream exists, the entire dream world is made of you. Aren't you the material cause? Aren't you the efficient cause? Aren't you the intelligent cause of this dream?

Now, you ask a question in your dream? Why all this creation of the dream world? – If you were in front of that person in his dream, what answer would you give him?

As the objects of the dream are negated by waking, similarly the objects of the waking are negated by the dream. They do not exist independently and are illusory in nature just as a mirage.

 

CREATIONISM AND CREATOR

Let us say, Lord created this world. That means Lord exists before the world. Since there was no world, no universe, so only Lord existed. If this can be arrived at logically, then, how, with what and where did he create this Universe? Let us say, he created some space. Where can he create any space, as all is nothing but the Lord! He cannot create something out of himself as there exists no out.

The other option is that Lord is a small being who found himself in the midst of a vast space and time. He was feeling bored and thought he could have some fun and created this world and thought he could now rule over such people. If they do not pray to him, he will send them to hell and if they pray to him, he will forgive their sins and send them to heaven. In that case, can Lord be Real? Anything limited in space and time is subject to change. That means Lord can have change. That also means Lord can change his mind and start sending sinners to heaven and saints to hell! So you see, wild imaginations can give birth too many philosophies and many " saints " and their followers. Of course, besides the above reasoning, this assumption is also negated by the Scriptures.

 

So if there is a world, it has to exist within the lord for the so called space cannot exist anyplace outside of itself and of the Lord. It will be a contradiction. Now what will the Lord make the world with. What material will he use? Lord can only use himself as a material as nothing else exists. So material cause of the world, is Lord. By what means would the Lord create the world? He has only himself. So it is by himself he creates the world, so he becomes the efficient cause. Now, to create something some intelligence is needed. By whose intelligence did Lord create the world? Since he alone is, it has to be his own intelligence.

So world is made up of the Lord, by the Lord, and through the Lord. How is it, then, different from the Lord?

Atleast this should be understood intellectually. Tarka can be used initially before it too is given up.

 

WORLD, SENSES, MIND, CONSCIOUSNESS

Who is the Gyata of the world? - The Senses.

Who is the Gyata of the senses? – The Mind.

Who is the Gyata of the mind? – The Consciousness

So you see, the very " reality " of the world is dependent upon the Senses and this is viewed by the mind. Mind is evident only in light of consciousness. The very existence of the senses and the mind is dependent. So the world, that is dependent upon the dependent, cannot independently exist.

Therefore, even by not taking the Shruti/Vedanta as a pramana, one can analyze and understand the nature of the World to be illusory.

If you read the above with a contemplative and an open mind, you shall see much truth and many more questions will arise. Please make a list of those questions and start seeking the knowledge of the subject with honesty and sincerity.

Swami Rama Tirtha says that if you are thirsty for knowledge, a master will come to your doorsteps and teach you. What is the pramana for such a statement? – Sri Ramakrishna Paramhansa came for Swami Vivekananda. Furthermore, there is a beautiful statement – Perfect master – Perfect Disciple. People tend to search for Perfect Master. Tell me how will you recognize one? Can the dreamer know who is woken up? So the whole process of finding a Perfect Master is silly. It is best to be a perfect disciple. Open yourself to knowledge and inculcate the values of a disciple. Do we have a pramana for this? Yoga Vashishtha….is the pramana. Lord Rama is a perfect disciple and Sage Vashishta is a perfect master.

Vedanta usually comes in strong but small dosages. I shall end this email now and pray you find your learning or shall we say unlearning!

Aum Purnamadah Purnamidam Purnat Purnamudachyate

Purnasya Purnamadaya Purnameva VashsihateShantih! Shantih! Shantih!

 

Thanks and Regards

Bharat

P.S: Kindly excuse this email as I had promised Sri Rafal that I would write to him regarding the same.

 

 

 

|brihaspatim varenyam|