samba sada shiva & advaita

[Guest guest]

Dear Guru and all,

 

LR> The panchaloka paala devata pooja starts with

LR> Ganesha (Prithvi), and proceeds to Brahma (Vaayu), Vishnu

(Jala),

LR> Rudra (Agni), Gauri (Akasha) pooja.

 

This order is not always the same. There are different orders, and

there are some people who actually perform shad-lokapAla puja here

in the Satyanarayana puja (adding the only missing consort of the

trimurti-s, saraswati).

 

LR> Clearly the intention here's to lift the sadhaka's mind to a

higher

LR> level, before he can proceed with the pooja proper.

 

Actually, I would argue that lifting the sadhaka's mind through the

process of neti, neti _is_ anoher aspect of the pooja proper. Take

the example of the satyanarayana puja: The lokapalas & navagrahas

are either invoked in

separate kalashas, or as avarana devatas. Either way, what results

is that they are _not_ in the central kalashas. So also with the

digpalakas (and think about what exactly dig-bandhana means).

Finally, we invoke lakshmi sameta satyanarayana in the central

kalasha. But, this form is not what we are worshipping either.

Very often, the prathama avarana puja consists of the anga puja of

the devata, so the angas (or the form) is not what we are

worshipping either. It is an even more subtler concept. This mental

process is puja.

 

Or take the example of yantra puja like sri chakra puja. The upwards

triangles represent shiva, and the downwards triangles represent

shakti. We worship all of them, and leave the more manifold concepts

aside as we move closer to the center. Finally, we reach the center

where there is simply a tiny circle-dot of indescribable power,

which may be considerede the `union of shiva-shakti', but it is

neither an upwards triangle nor a downwards triangle.

 

> [s.Rath:] Really? So are you saying that saamba is not an

adjective for

> describing shiva? That implies that saamba is a *normal* state of

Shiva like

> the neck is normally white and sometimes blue. Kindly clarify.

 

So far in the discussions, we have seen (a) shiva as one of the

trimurthi-s, with his consort parvati, and (b) shiva as purusha with

his shakti prakriti. However, at the level of © brahman, brahman

alone 'exists' in the final sense since maya is not real in the

eternal sense. If by 'shiva' we refer to the consort of parvati, or

maheshvari, both 'samba' and 'sada' become adjectives for describing

shiva as being ever with his shakti. But, if we refer to 'brahman'

alone, then it is brahman alone, and the word 'saamba' can be used

as a 'process' to get one from the two petalled shiva-shakti

combination of the 2-petalled agya chakra, to the 1000(countless)-

petalled sahasrara-chakra.

 

> [s.Rath:] I wonder why Jaimini did not prefer sadaa in between

saamba shiva.

 

Once we add sAmba also, prakriti drops away, since maya is not real

in the eternal sense. It operaters in the purview of time & space,

but time and space are themselves a part of creation. Thus, maya is

not beyond creation. So, sAmba and sadA can be considered

contradictory. Or, it might be that sAmba qualifies 'sadA shiva'

thus explicitly showing that the 'shiva' aspect (when taken as

brahman) is eternal, who is to be taken as purusha / maheshvara when

he is with ambA.

 

If we are to worship shiva for any sort of material results,

including the development of a clean pure mind, or the destruction

of impurity of mind etc, it only makes sense to address our prayers

to that shiva who is seemingly yoked to shakti also, and sthus,

sAmba shiva alone makes sense for all practical purposes, including

jyotisha.

 

> [s.Rath:] . . . example . . .

 

The example that came to mind suddenly was that of a ghantha--a bell

and its striker. We can understand that the bell is " shiva " and the

striker is its " shakti " . The shakti is the one that causes the bell

to sing with the creation of its sound (om-kara). Narasimha wrote

that shiva and shakti need to merge for the experience of brahman.

This would be analogous to the striker hitting the bell to create

the om-kara. However, there is an important point to note. If the

striker hit the bell and stayed in contact with the bell, no om-kara

would be produced. Only when the striker separates from the bell

after hitting it does the beautiful resonance occur. This is the

experience of advaita: seeing / hearing the omkara (advaita) in the

face of duality.

 

The purer the composition of the bell (through samskaras), and the

cleaner the surface of the bell is (purified intellect), the longer

the reverberation of om-kara occurs after the striker hits the bell.

But, ultimately, in the final sense, we want to get to a point where

even the striking is not required for the production of this om-

kara. We realize that in a perfect intellect, the ghantha is self-

reverberating, and is already producing the om-kara harmonic all by

itself. All we had to do is open our ears and listen.

 

ajit

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave Namah

 

Namaste Ajit,

 

Thanks for the lovely post. Guruji is right, you indeed have the

rare gift of invoking a blessed atmosphere through your posts.

 

> This order is not always the same. There are different orders, and

> there are some people who actually perform shad-lokapAla puja here

> in the Satyanarayana puja (adding the only missing consort of the

> trimurti-s, saraswati).

 

Lakshmi: Could you please list the other orders too for my learning

(with the source, if possible) because I've come across only pancha

loka paala devata scheme and not the others. If saraswati added as

the 6th deity, then what about Lakshmi?

 

Actually, I would argue that lifting the sadhaka's mind through the

> process of neti, neti _is_ anoher aspect of the pooja proper. Take

> the example of the satyanarayana puja: The lokapalas & navagrahas

> are either invoked in

> separate kalashas, or as avarana devatas. Either way, what results

> is that they are _not_ in the central kalashas. So also with the

> digpalakas (and think about what exactly dig-bandhana means).

> Finally, we invoke lakshmi sameta satyanarayana in the central

> kalasha. But, this form is not what we are worshipping either.

> Very often, the prathama avarana puja consists of the anga puja of

> the devata, so the angas (or the form) is not what we are

> worshipping either. It is an even more subtler concept. This

mental

> process is puja.

 

Lakshmi: If the aavarana/environment is not important in a pooja,

why set it up at all? Infact, The Divinity is invited to the mandapa

with full retinue, because all the aavarana and parivaara devatas

are extensions/expressions of the vrata Devata and the vratam is

considered incomplete and ineffective, without their participation.

 

It is like working of a software program:--)) If the environment is

not set up prior, or if the installation is faulty, or if all the

components are not loaded properly, will the program work, even

though I keep clicking on the icon?

 

> Or take the example of yantra puja like sri chakra puja. The

upwards

> triangles represent shiva, and the downwards triangles represent

> shakti. We worship all of them, and leave the more manifold

concepts

> aside as we move closer to the center. Finally, we reach the

center

> where there is simply a tiny circle-dot of indescribable power,

> which may be considerede the `union of shiva-shakti', but it is

> neither an upwards triangle nor a downwards triangle.

 

Lakshmi: Apart from triangles, Sri Chakra also contains circles, of

which the following are are considered as Shiva chakras...

 

binduschaashtadalam padmam padmam shodasapatrakam

chatursram cha chatvaari shiva chakraanukramaat.

 

Bindu is a shiva chakra and the triangle encircling it is the shakti

chakra...

 

trikona mastakonam cha dasakonadvayam tathaa

chaturdasaaram chaitaani shakti chakraani panchachaH.

 

In Sri Chakra pooja also the nava-aavarana pooja is extremely

important. Can we reach the sanctum sanctorum without stepping

through the successive aavaranas? Can i proceed to the next room if

the door is locked? The access and the key to the Devi are

controlled by the aavarana devatas, who are none other than various

aspects of Mother, and when we propitiate them, we are purifying

ourselves and making ourselves ready for the ultimate epiphanic

experience. If that were not so there wouldn't have been any need

for Devi Khadgamaala stotram, celebrating/invoking the aavarana

devatas . Most importantly, even when one is passing through the

scores of gods, one knows that they are all leaves / branches of the

same Tree, the same Core. Isn't that advaita?

 

Neti Neti is one way of approaching God, Iti is the other way.

The first is the path of philosophy, the second is the nature of

bhakti. But they both and many others all lead to Paramatma...and

that's advaita enough for me.

 

Regards,

Lakshmi

[Guest guest]

Dear Lakshmi,

 

Lakshmi: Could you please list the other orders too

 

The other krama I remember off the top of my head is Ganesha, Devi,

Saraswati, Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra. Lakshmi is either implicitly

invoked with Satyanarayana, or explictly invoked in front of the

main kalasha. This is given in the prayoga texts used by the Havyaka

community.

 

Lakshmi: If the aavarana/environment is not important in a pooja,

why set it up at all?

 

I never mentioned that it isn't important. Devas always come in a

group with their retinue, and hence, the also have the

name `vrindakarah'. But, it is enough to invoke the

devata `saparivara', especially in the initial

stages. " Ineffectiveness " is often a word mentioned to " goad " the

sadhaka into doing better outward ritual, but a first step is better

than none at all. For example, when performing the shankha puja, you

have to invoke all 10 kalas of agni, 12 kalas of surya and 16 kalas

of chandra. And, in the prana pratishtha that precedes the avahana

of the devata, these kalas plus an additional 40 need to be invoked.

In fact, all the samskaras (starting from garbhadana) need to be

performed after avahana before the puja proper starts. Otherwise,

the puja is considered incomplete and ineffective. All of these

details can be found in standard tantra texts.

 

There are two separate paths in advaita: the path of action &

renunciation (pravritti & nivritti). The pujas (particularly pujas

like panchayatana puja & sri chakra puja) provide a method by which

either can be pursued at a mental level. They are a beautiful form

of outward puja, and also a beautiful form of inward puja. In the

same puja, different aspects are emphasized for those who prefer

outward / inward travels. In the panchayatana puja, the avarana

devatas can be considered separate deities of their own, or

expansion of the central deity.

 

I'm skipping the majority of the discussion on shri-chakra for now.

Yes, you `go through' the avarana devatas to open each locked door.

I myself had written " We worship all of them, and leave the more

manifold concepts aside as we move closer to the center. " . Once the

door is open, do you simply stand at the door looking at the avarana

devatas, or do you walk through, leaving aside the manifoldness of

the current avarana walking into the more subtle pervasive less-

variegated avarana?

 

Setting up a formal avarana environment is important not for the

sake of the avarana itself. It is important because it provides a

systematic method for opening the door of the avarana, and walking

through it, thus leaving the avarana behind. In the same way,

samskaras are important since they provide a systematic method for

cleansing the mind, and then the sadhaka walks through the door of

sannyasa, thus leaving all samskaras behind. The avaranas /

samskaras / environments are not important for their own sake.

 

> Most importantly, even when one is passing through the

> scores of gods, one knows that they are all leaves / branches of

the

> same Tree, the same Core. Isn't that advaita?

 

Yes and No. Your understanding has its own value, and I have no

right to comment upon it. I am in no way claiming that I know

shankara's advaita. But, as per his school of teaching, brahman

is " svajatiya vijatiya svagata bheda rahitam " and teaches " brahma-

atma-aikyam " of that which is " sat-chit-ananda " . That is advaita.

 

ajit

[Guest guest]

Namskaar Sri Lakshmi and Sri AjitI hope my intervention is helpful and not seen as an interruption. " Following Advaita " means that you understand intellectually that Brahman and " I " can't be separate. This develops the shraddha (capacity to know the same despite all odds), titiksha (to endure and accept anything that the ego brings while reacting to its possible death). What is this intellectual understanding:

" Brahman is the whole. All that you see is Brahman. All that you hear is Brahman. Only it Exists. The mind, then, evaluates this statement and asks many questions- 1. How am I an individual?2. What separates me from Brahman?

3. Why do I see things as different from me if I am Brahman?4. Why do I see this Universe?.........These questions are dissolved (not answered), through usage of Viveka on the statements of the Shruti. Advaita is hard to understand because the mind always believes in two or more. And Advaita is no - dwaita meaning No-two. Why did they not use 1? The existence of " 1 " is with " 2 " . When one says no-two it is onlyness. The reference to numbers is broken. Ego does not let the mind understand this. Therefore, Advaita is not by realizing it but because you understand that " no-two " is possible.Ajitji, I personally as well the scriptural texts do not allow the usage of the words " Path " . " Path " refers to a goal to be achieved. That I am Brahman is an already achieved end. There is no path of action that will take you to Brahman. Brahman is the foundation on which all action, in action takes place. It is with the power of Brahman that action is seen and through of and conducted. Action is of the nature of achivement. That I do not have and I shall achieve it. " That I do not have " negates Brahman in you. This is the problem. This is the mental dwaita. Born of Maya, Action is not capable of giving the knowledge that " I am Brahman " . Hence, there is no path of action. Renouncing this very thought, is the most proper thing to understand. It is natural. So where is the question of path of renunciation. What are you renouncing? - You are renouncing Avidya. That vidya which is of the nature of " two or more " . Sri Lakshmi, that is Advaita for you take all gods as different aspects of one. They only appear to be many. I hope that you strive for a true teacher of Advaita. You both look adhikaris of this divine knowledge. Do not let this fire die down. If the above words are of no relevance, then, kindly forgive me. Thanks and RegardsBharatOn 5/15/06, Ajit Krishnan <

ajit.krishnan wrote:

Dear Lakshmi,

 

Lakshmi: Could you please list the other orders too

 

The other krama I remember off the top of my head is Ganesha, Devi,

Saraswati, Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra. Lakshmi is either implicitly

invoked with Satyanarayana, or explictly invoked in front of the

main kalasha. This is given in the prayoga texts used by the Havyaka

community.

 

Lakshmi: If the aavarana/environment is not important in a pooja,

why set it up at all?

 

I never mentioned that it isn't important. Devas always come in a

group with their retinue, and hence, the also have the

name `vrindakarah'. But, it is enough to invoke the

devata `saparivara', especially in the initial

stages. " Ineffectiveness " is often a word mentioned to " goad " the

sadhaka into doing better outward ritual, but a first step is better

than none at all. For example, when performing the shankha puja, you

have to invoke all 10 kalas of agni, 12 kalas of surya and 16 kalas

of chandra. And, in the prana pratishtha that precedes the avahana

of the devata, these kalas plus an additional 40 need to be invoked.

In fact, all the samskaras (starting from garbhadana) need to be

performed after avahana before the puja proper starts. Otherwise,

the puja is considered incomplete and ineffective. All of these

details can be found in standard tantra texts.

 

There are two separate paths in advaita: the path of action &

renunciation (pravritti & nivritti). The pujas (particularly pujas

like panchayatana puja & sri chakra puja) provide a method by which

either can be pursued at a mental level. They are a beautiful form

of outward puja, and also a beautiful form of inward puja. In the

same puja, different aspects are emphasized for those who prefer

outward / inward travels. In the panchayatana puja, the avarana

devatas can be considered separate deities of their own, or

expansion of the central deity.

 

I'm skipping the majority of the discussion on shri-chakra for now.

Yes, you `go through' the avarana devatas to open each locked door.

I myself had written " We worship all of them, and leave the more

manifold concepts aside as we move closer to the center. " . Once the

door is open, do you simply stand at the door looking at the avarana

devatas, or do you walk through, leaving aside the manifoldness of

the current avarana walking into the more subtle pervasive less-

variegated avarana?

 

Setting up a formal avarana environment is important not for the

sake of the avarana itself. It is important because it provides a

systematic method for opening the door of the avarana, and walking

through it, thus leaving the avarana behind. In the same way,

samskaras are important since they provide a systematic method for

cleansing the mind, and then the sadhaka walks through the door of

sannyasa, thus leaving all samskaras behind. The avaranas /

samskaras / environments are not important for their own sake.

 

> Most importantly, even when one is passing through the

> scores of gods, one knows that they are all leaves / branches of

the

> same Tree, the same Core. Isn't that advaita?

 

Yes and No. Your understanding has its own value, and I have no

right to comment upon it. I am in no way claiming that I know

shankara's advaita. But, as per his school of teaching, brahman

is " svajatiya vijatiya svagata bheda rahitam " and teaches " brahma-

atma-aikyam " of that which is " sat-chit-ananda " . That is advaita.

 

ajit

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

*tat savitur varenyam*

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave Namah

 

Dear Ajit,

 

Namaste.

 

> The other krama I remember off the top of my head is Ganesha,

Devi,

> Saraswati, Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra. Lakshmi is either implicitly

> invoked with Satyanarayana, or explictly invoked in front of the

> main kalasha. This is given in the prayoga texts used by the

Havyaka

> community.

 

Lakshmi: I shall do some research to find out more about the krama

you have quoted.

Btw, I was not asking about Lakshmi as the Shakti of Satyanarayana,

but as a loka paalika, because Vishnu is also another form/name of

Satyanarayana, yet He's named as one of the loka paalakas.

 

What could be the meaning of shad-loka paalas?

 

Let me state my understanding of the pooja vidhi that precedes the

aavahana of the main deity. The pancha loka paala devata pooja

represents the propitiation of pancha tattva devatas and with their

blessings overcoming the constraints of Space or pancha bhootas.

The propitiation of navagrahas enables one to understand/overcome

Time. Hence the barrier between the pindanda and brahmanda is erased

and one is in the presence of the ashta prakritis, that are involved

in all creation. The panchabhoutika / kaala factors that we have

assimilated in the earlier processes are now aligned with the Cosmic

Consciousness and the resultant vibrations are the pranava, the

Vedas and the mantras. ( diks rule hearing ). These three poojas

also indicate one's the passage through tamas, rajas and sattwa

gunas. From this saatwik threshold one gains the view of Virat

Purusha. That Transcendental Power is then invited & converted

into a pancha bhoutika form, the kalasham ( " kam " for Brahma, " lam "

for Vishnu and " sham " for Shankara), and onto oneself too. The

beejaksharas & mantras accompanying the praana pratishta indicate

this. The whole process is aimed at energizing and aligning oneself

with Cosmic Force. Perhaps Aurobindo's concept of integral yoga

approximates this.

 

This is how the Rishis had so effortlessly understood the

complexities of the Universe. Without moving an inch from their

seats They had the darshanam of brahmaanda in pindaanda (like Sri

Krishna had shown to Yashoda) through such communion and could

expostulate on the most intricate matters. While we may never be

capable of fully understanding or appreciating the implications of

the vedic riruals instituted by the sages, at the same time we

should not assume that the procedures are redundant or carry only

fear value.

 

It is fine if one renounces rituals in totality and prays to God

only in an abstract manner. But if the religious rituals are

undertaken, they need to be performed with full faith and trikarana

shuddhi, and as prescribed in the shastras.

 

But, it is enough to invoke the > devata `saparivara', especially in

the initial

> stages. " Ineffectiveness " is often a word mentioned to " goad " the

> sadhaka

 

Lakshmi: " Ineffectiveness " may not be used as a goad but as a

reality. If the other components of a program are not loaded, as

they are supposed to be, will the exe or xlb (example:--))file alone

work? All these aavarana poojas have to be loaded initially because

they are necessary to make the praanapratishta and invokation

complete.

 

> Yes, you `go through' the avarana devatas to open each locked

door.

> I myself had written " We worship all of them, and leave the more

> manifold concepts aside as we move closer to the center. " . Once

the

> door is open, do you simply stand at the door looking at the

avarana

> devatas, or do you walk through, leaving aside the manifoldness of

> the current avarana walking into the more subtle pervasive less-

Ø variegated avarana?

 

> Setting up a formal avarana environment is important not for the

> sake of the avarana itself. It is important because it provides a

> systematic method for opening the door of the avarana, and walking

> through it, thus leaving the avarana behind. In the same way,

> samskaras are important since they provide a systematic method for

> cleansing the mind, and then the sadhaka walks through the door of

> sannyasa, thus leaving all samskaras behind. The avaranas /

> samskaras / environments are not important for their own sake.

 

 

Lakshmi: My understanding is that when you leave a aavarana, you

also soak up or carry with you the power of the aavarana devatas. It

is that energy which rids one of the bad samskaras. Do I dump the

alphabet and the other basics I learnt whenever I graduate to the

next level? Are the poorva janma samskarams and karma phalam dumped

when the next birth occurs? On the contrary it's those accumulated

energies that always accompany us and shape us. They are important

because they make us what we are, and placed at what level. They

also largely decide whether we can go to the next level, because

going to the next level is certainly not in our hands. We can only

try and it's the Divine will that ultimately decides whether we

should. Who knows…one might even get demoted!

 

It is to be borne in mind that Adi Shankara, the advaita prayokta,

himself never spurned multiplicity or rituals. He prayed to various

deities and left us beautiful hymns as his exalted legacy. He

founded the Shankarmutts which remain the bastions of vedic

philosophy and rituals. He was the one who stipulated rigorous

rituals, like the trikaala pooja etc for the Shankaracharyas.

Shankaracharyas are liberated souls and follow the nivritti maarga,

so do all these rituals matter to them? If not why did Adi Shankara

lay down such a process? Because whether it's householders or

sannyasins certain discipline is necessary where spiritual matters

are concenrned. In fact the term " sannyasa " can be decoded as

samyak+nyaasa!!

 

Adi shankara himself had to under go experiences related to duality

in order to learn. He had to do parakaaya pravesham into a dead body

to learn about certain facts of life and another episode was when he

was accosted and interrogated by the Chandala. It is because

duality was a necessary parameter in those learning experiences.

His knowledge was not complete until he underwent those experiences.

 

Adi Shankara was a Mahaanubhaava and a ripe Soul, who could enjoy

all the paths to God. Sri Ramakrishna Paramahamsa was another. He

found Mother both as Mayaa and Satyam. That ability to synthesize,

to find " ekatvam " is true advaita.

 

Regards,

Lakshmi

 

 

 

 

 

 

sohamsa , " Ajit Krishnan " <ajit.krishnan

wrote:

>

> Dear Lakshmi,

>

> Lakshmi: Could you please list the other orders too

>

> The other krama I remember off the top of my head is Ganesha,

Devi,

> Saraswati, Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra. Lakshmi is either implicitly

> invoked with Satyanarayana, or explictly invoked in front of the

> main kalasha. This is given in the prayoga texts used by the

Havyaka

> community.

>

> Lakshmi: If the aavarana/environment is not important in a pooja,

> why set it up at all?

>

> I never mentioned that it isn't important. Devas always come in a

> group with their retinue, and hence, the also have the

> name `vrindakarah'. But, it is enough to invoke the

> devata `saparivara', especially in the initial

> stages. " Ineffectiveness " is often a word mentioned to " goad " the

> sadhaka into doing better outward ritual, but a first step is

better

> than none at all. For example, when performing the shankha puja,

you

> have to invoke all 10 kalas of agni, 12 kalas of surya and 16

kalas

> of chandra. And, in the prana pratishtha that precedes the avahana

> of the devata, these kalas plus an additional 40 need to be

invoked.

> In fact, all the samskaras (starting from garbhadana) need to be

> performed after avahana before the puja proper starts. Otherwise,

> the puja is considered incomplete and ineffective. All of these

> details can be found in standard tantra texts.

>

> There are two separate paths in advaita: the path of action &

> renunciation (pravritti & nivritti). The pujas (particularly pujas

> like panchayatana puja & sri chakra puja) provide a method by

which

> either can be pursued at a mental level. They are a beautiful form

> of outward puja, and also a beautiful form of inward puja. In the

> same puja, different aspects are emphasized for those who prefer

> outward / inward travels. In the panchayatana puja, the avarana

> devatas can be considered separate deities of their own, or

> expansion of the central deity.

>

> I'm skipping the majority of the discussion on shri-chakra for

now.

> Yes, you `go through' the avarana devatas to open each locked

door.

> I myself had written " We worship all of them, and leave the more

> manifold concepts aside as we move closer to the center. " . Once

the

> door is open, do you simply stand at the door looking at the

avarana

> devatas, or do you walk through, leaving aside the manifoldness of

> the current avarana walking into the more subtle pervasive less-

> variegated avarana?

>

> Setting up a formal avarana environment is important not for the

> sake of the avarana itself. It is important because it provides a

> systematic method for opening the door of the avarana, and walking

> through it, thus leaving the avarana behind. In the same way,

> samskaras are important since they provide a systematic method for

> cleansing the mind, and then the sadhaka walks through the door of

> sannyasa, thus leaving all samskaras behind. The avaranas /

> samskaras / environments are not important for their own sake.

>

> > Most importantly, even when one is passing through the

> > scores of gods, one knows that they are all leaves / branches of

> the

> > same Tree, the same Core. Isn't that advaita?

>

> Yes and No. Your understanding has its own value, and I have no

> right to comment upon it. I am in no way claiming that I know

> shankara's advaita. But, as per his school of teaching, brahman

> is " svajatiya vijatiya svagata bheda rahitam " and teaches " brahma-

> atma-aikyam " of that which is " sat-chit-ananda " . That is advaita.

>

> ajit

>

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave Namah

 

Dear Bharat,

 

Namaste.

 

Thank you for your views. It's always a pleasure to hear from you.

Like Ajit's, your posts are also very erudite and I always read them

without fail, because I learn so much from all of you. It's my bad

luck that I could not come to Delhi Conference, otherwise, I would

have enjoyed meeting you. I also enjoy discussing with all of you,

because these discussions help to debug my thinking.

 

It's my personal feeling that Isavasyam idam sarvam, Brahma satyam

jagan mithya..., deho devaalayam prokto... etc are more to be

adopted as an attitude than to be quoted as philosophy. Advaita

needs practical application and needs to be ingrained into our

responses to every day situations. If the feeling " oneness " that

Advaita envisages between Brahman and Self is extended between Self

and Self, perhaps the world will be a much better and more peaceful

place to live in.

 

In a lighter vein, I have also seen " aham brahmaasmi " to be

occasionally interpreted only as applicable to self and not to

others:--))

 

Regards,

Lakshmi

 

 

sohamsa , " Bharat Hindu Astrology "

<hinduastrology wrote:

>

> Namskaar Sri Lakshmi and Sri Ajit

>

> I hope my intervention is helpful and not seen as an interruption.

>

> " Following Advaita " means that you understand intellectually that

Brahman

> and " I " can't be separate. This develops the shraddha (capacity to

know the

> same despite all odds), titiksha (to endure and accept anything

that the ego

> brings while reacting to its possible death). What is this

intellectual

> understanding:

>

> " Brahman is the whole. All that you see is Brahman. All that you

hear is

> Brahman. Only it Exists. The mind, then, evaluates this statement

and asks

> many questions-

>

> 1. How am I an individual?

> 2. What separates me from Brahman?

> 3. Why do I see things as different from me if I am Brahman?

> 4. Why do I see this Universe?

> .........

>

> These questions are dissolved (not answered), through usage of

Viveka on the

> statements of the Shruti.

>

> Advaita is hard to understand because the mind always believes in

two or

> more. And Advaita is no - dwaita meaning No-two. Why did they not

use 1? The

> existence of " 1 " is with " 2 " . When one says no-two it is onlyness.

The

> reference to numbers is broken. Ego does not let the mind

understand this.

>

> Therefore, Advaita is not by realizing it but because you

understand that

> " no-two " is possible.

>

> Ajitji, I personally as well the scriptural texts do not allow the

usage of

> the words " Path " . " Path " refers to a goal to be achieved. That I

am Brahman

> is an already achieved end. There is no path of action that will

take you to

> Brahman. Brahman is the foundation on which all action, in action

takes

> place. It is with the power of Brahman that action is seen and

through of

> and conducted. Action is of the nature of achivement. That I do

not have and

> I shall achieve it. " That I do not have " negates Brahman in you.

This is the

> problem. This is the mental dwaita.

> Born of Maya, Action is not capable of giving the knowledge

that " I am

> Brahman " .

>

> Hence, there is no path of action. Renouncing this very thought,

is the most

> proper thing to understand. It is natural. So where is the

question of path

> of renunciation. What are you renouncing? - You are renouncing

Avidya. That

> vidya which is of the nature of " two or more " .

>

> Sri Lakshmi, that is Advaita for you take all gods as different

aspects of

> one. They only appear to be many.

>

> I hope that you strive for a true teacher of Advaita. You both look

> adhikaris of this divine knowledge. Do not let this fire die down.

>

> If the above words are of no relevance, then, kindly forgive me.

>

> Thanks and Regards

> Bharat

>

>

>

> On 5/15/06, Ajit Krishnan <ajit.krishnan wrote:

> >

> > Dear Lakshmi,

> >

> >

> > Lakshmi: Could you please list the other orders too

> >

> > The other krama I remember off the top of my head is Ganesha,

Devi,

> > Saraswati, Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra. Lakshmi is either implicitly

> > invoked with Satyanarayana, or explictly invoked in front of the

> > main kalasha. This is given in the prayoga texts used by the

Havyaka

> > community.

> >

> >

> > Lakshmi: If the aavarana/environment is not important in a pooja,

> > why set it up at all?

> >

> > I never mentioned that it isn't important. Devas always come in a

> > group with their retinue, and hence, the also have the

> > name `vrindakarah'. But, it is enough to invoke the

> > devata `saparivara', especially in the initial

> > stages. " Ineffectiveness " is often a word mentioned to " goad " the

> > sadhaka into doing better outward ritual, but a first step is

better

> > than none at all. For example, when performing the shankha puja,

you

> > have to invoke all 10 kalas of agni, 12 kalas of surya and 16

kalas

> > of chandra. And, in the prana pratishtha that precedes the

avahana

> > of the devata, these kalas plus an additional 40 need to be

invoked.

> > In fact, all the samskaras (starting from garbhadana) need to be

> > performed after avahana before the puja proper starts. Otherwise,

> > the puja is considered incomplete and ineffective. All of these

> > details can be found in standard tantra texts.

> >

> > There are two separate paths in advaita: the path of action &

> > renunciation (pravritti & nivritti). The pujas (particularly

pujas

> > like panchayatana puja & sri chakra puja) provide a method by

which

> > either can be pursued at a mental level. They are a beautiful

form

> > of outward puja, and also a beautiful form of inward puja. In the

> > same puja, different aspects are emphasized for those who prefer

> > outward / inward travels. In the panchayatana puja, the avarana

> > devatas can be considered separate deities of their own, or

> > expansion of the central deity.

> >

> > I'm skipping the majority of the discussion on shri-chakra for

now.

> > Yes, you `go through' the avarana devatas to open each locked

door.

> > I myself had written " We worship all of them, and leave the more

> > manifold concepts aside as we move closer to the center. " . Once

the

> > door is open, do you simply stand at the door looking at the

avarana

> > devatas, or do you walk through, leaving aside the manifoldness

of

> > the current avarana walking into the more subtle pervasive less-

> > variegated avarana?

> >

> > Setting up a formal avarana environment is important not for the

> > sake of the avarana itself. It is important because it provides a

> > systematic method for opening the door of the avarana, and

walking

> > through it, thus leaving the avarana behind. In the same way,

> > samskaras are important since they provide a systematic method

for

> > cleansing the mind, and then the sadhaka walks through the door

of

> > sannyasa, thus leaving all samskaras behind. The avaranas /

> > samskaras / environments are not important for their own sake.

> >

> >

> > > Most importantly, even when one is passing through the

> > > scores of gods, one knows that they are all leaves / branches

of

> > the

> > > same Tree, the same Core. Isn't that advaita?

> >

> > Yes and No. Your understanding has its own value, and I have no

> > right to comment upon it. I am in no way claiming that I know

> > shankara's advaita. But, as per his school of teaching, brahman

> > is " svajatiya vijatiya svagata bheda rahitam " and

teaches " brahma-

> > atma-aikyam " of that which is " sat-chit-ananda " . That is advaita.

> >

> > ajit

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > *tat savitur varenyam*

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Namaskaar Sri LakshmiYes some delusions can catch the mahavakyas into such an abyss. The ego exists in 3 forms:1. I am separate2. I am supreme3. Only I existIn " I am separate " form it defines the individuality. As one achieves success and attributes all the successes to one's ego, the ego expands to " I am supreme " . It starts to believe that it knows a lot more than others and that the others should follow his/her commands.

" Only I exist " - the person sees only himself to be existing. All others are meant to serve him. If they do not, he reacts and vents out anger and frustration. Creates problems and uses force and power to subdue others. Taliban thinking is a good example. If you apply this to Gunas - This is the most Tamasic - where " Aham Brahmasmi " is interpreted in the eyes of the ego! The most important characteristic of Tamas being- understanding everything topsy turvy. Dharma becomes Adharma and Adharma becomes Dharma when mind is influenced by Tamas. This is also the reason why, Visistha Advaita gives us an excellent clue in our understanding. One tends to see the Lord in all around him but himself before realizing the same within. The attitude defines the practical implementation. Do not take physical action alone as " practical implementation " . The cycle has to stop. If there is darkness in a room, do you push the darkness out or bring in a candle. Bringing in the candle are words of the shruti and pushing the darkness and trying to transform is action.

Wishing you the best in this " path " :)BharatOn 5/15/06, B Lakshmi Ramesh <

b_lakshmi_ramesh wrote:

Om Gurave Namah

 

Dear Bharat,

 

Namaste.

 

Thank you for your views. It's always a pleasure to hear from you.

Like Ajit's, your posts are also very erudite and I always read them

without fail, because I learn so much from all of you. It's my bad

luck that I could not come to Delhi Conference, otherwise, I would

have enjoyed meeting you. I also enjoy discussing with all of you,

because these discussions help to debug my thinking.

 

It's my personal feeling that Isavasyam idam sarvam, Brahma satyam

jagan mithya..., deho devaalayam prokto... etc are more to be

adopted as an attitude than to be quoted as philosophy. Advaita

needs practical application and needs to be ingrained into our

responses to every day situations. If the feeling " oneness " that

Advaita envisages between Brahman and Self is extended between Self

and Self, perhaps the world will be a much better and more peaceful

place to live in.

 

In a lighter vein, I have also seen " aham brahmaasmi " to be

occasionally interpreted only as applicable to self and not to

others:--))

 

Regards,

Lakshmi

 

 

sohamsa , " Bharat Hindu Astrology "

 

<hinduastrology wrote:

>

> Namskaar Sri Lakshmi and Sri Ajit

>

> I hope my intervention is helpful and not seen as an interruption.

>

> " Following Advaita " means that you understand intellectually that

Brahman

> and " I " can't be separate. This develops the shraddha (capacity to

know the

> same despite all odds), titiksha (to endure and accept anything

that the ego

> brings while reacting to its possible death). What is this

intellectual

> understanding:

>

> " Brahman is the whole. All that you see is Brahman. All that you

hear is

> Brahman. Only it Exists. The mind, then, evaluates this statement

and asks

> many questions-

>

> 1. How am I an individual?

> 2. What separates me from Brahman?

> 3. Why do I see things as different from me if I am Brahman?

> 4. Why do I see this Universe?

> .........

>

> These questions are dissolved (not answered), through usage of

Viveka on the

> statements of the Shruti.

>

> Advaita is hard to understand because the mind always believes in

two or

> more. And Advaita is no - dwaita meaning No-two. Why did they not

use 1? The

> existence of " 1 " is with " 2 " . When one says no-two it is onlyness.

The

> reference to numbers is broken. Ego does not let the mind

understand this.

>

> Therefore, Advaita is not by realizing it but because you

understand that

> " no-two " is possible.

>

> Ajitji, I personally as well the scriptural texts do not allow the

usage of

> the words " Path " . " Path " refers to a goal to be achieved. That I

am Brahman

> is an already achieved end. There is no path of action that will

take you to

> Brahman. Brahman is the foundation on which all action, in action

takes

> place. It is with the power of Brahman that action is seen and

through of

> and conducted. Action is of the nature of achivement. That I do

not have and

> I shall achieve it. " That I do not have " negates Brahman in you.

This is the

> problem. This is the mental dwaita.

> Born of Maya, Action is not capable of giving the knowledge

that " I am

> Brahman " .

>

> Hence, there is no path of action. Renouncing this very thought,

is the most

> proper thing to understand. It is natural. So where is the

question of path

> of renunciation. What are you renouncing? - You are renouncing

Avidya. That

> vidya which is of the nature of " two or more " .

>

> Sri Lakshmi, that is Advaita for you take all gods as different

aspects of

> one. They only appear to be many.

>

> I hope that you strive for a true teacher of Advaita. You both look

> adhikaris of this divine knowledge. Do not let this fire die down.

>

> If the above words are of no relevance, then, kindly forgive me.

>

> Thanks and Regards

> Bharat

>

>

>

> On 5/15/06, Ajit Krishnan <ajit.krishnan wrote:

> >

> > Dear Lakshmi,

> >

> >

> > Lakshmi: Could you please list the other orders too

> >

> > The other krama I remember off the top of my head is Ganesha,

Devi,

> > Saraswati, Brahma, Vishnu, Rudra. Lakshmi is either implicitly

> > invoked with Satyanarayana, or explictly invoked in front of the

> > main kalasha. This is given in the prayoga texts used by the

Havyaka

> > community.

> >

> >

> > Lakshmi: If the aavarana/environment is not important in a pooja,

> > why set it up at all?

> >

> > I never mentioned that it isn't important. Devas always come in a

> > group with their retinue, and hence, the also have the

> > name `vrindakarah'. But, it is enough to invoke the

> > devata `saparivara', especially in the initial

> > stages. " Ineffectiveness " is often a word mentioned to " goad " the

> > sadhaka into doing better outward ritual, but a first step is

better

> > than none at all. For example, when performing the shankha puja,

you

> > have to invoke all 10 kalas of agni, 12 kalas of surya and 16

kalas

> > of chandra. And, in the prana pratishtha that precedes the

avahana

> > of the devata, these kalas plus an additional 40 need to be

invoked.

> > In fact, all the samskaras (starting from garbhadana) need to be

> > performed after avahana before the puja proper starts. Otherwise,

> > the puja is considered incomplete and ineffective. All of these

> > details can be found in standard tantra texts.

> >

> > There are two separate paths in advaita: the path of action &

> > renunciation (pravritti & nivritti). The pujas (particularly

pujas

> > like panchayatana puja & sri chakra puja) provide a method by

which

> > either can be pursued at a mental level. They are a beautiful

form

> > of outward puja, and also a beautiful form of inward puja. In the

> > same puja, different aspects are emphasized for those who prefer

> > outward / inward travels. In the panchayatana puja, the avarana

> > devatas can be considered separate deities of their own, or

> > expansion of the central deity.

> >

> > I'm skipping the majority of the discussion on shri-chakra for

now.

> > Yes, you `go through' the avarana devatas to open each locked

door.

> > I myself had written " We worship all of them, and leave the more

> > manifold concepts aside as we move closer to the center. " . Once

the

> > door is open, do you simply stand at the door looking at the

avarana

> > devatas, or do you walk through, leaving aside the manifoldness

of

> > the current avarana walking into the more subtle pervasive less-

> > variegated avarana?

> >

> > Setting up a formal avarana environment is important not for the

> > sake of the avarana itself. It is important because it provides a

> > systematic method for opening the door of the avarana, and

walking

> > through it, thus leaving the avarana behind. In the same way,

> > samskaras are important since they provide a systematic method

for

> > cleansing the mind, and then the sadhaka walks through the door

of

> > sannyasa, thus leaving all samskaras behind. The avaranas /

> > samskaras / environments are not important for their own sake.

> >

> >

> > > Most importantly, even when one is passing through the

> > > scores of gods, one knows that they are all leaves / branches

of

> > the

> > > same Tree, the same Core. Isn't that advaita?

> >

> > Yes and No. Your understanding has its own value, and I have no

> > right to comment upon it. I am in no way claiming that I know

> > shankara's advaita. But, as per his school of teaching, brahman

> > is " svajatiya vijatiya svagata bheda rahitam " and

teaches " brahma-

> > atma-aikyam " of that which is " sat-chit-ananda " . That is advaita.

> >

> > ajit

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > *tat savitur varenyam*

> >

> >

> >

> >

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave Namah

 

Namaste Ajit,

In fact the term " sannyasa " can be decoded as

> samyak+nyaasa!!

>

 

There's no + between samyak and nyaasa. I apologise for the error.

 

Regards,

Lakshmi

[Guest guest]

Bharat> I personally as well the scriptural texts do not allow the

usage of the words " Path " .

 

Within the sampradaya, the terms `pravritti-marga' and `nivritti-

marga' are used quite often to get the point across.

 

Lakshmi> What could be the meaning of shad-loka paalas?

 

Generally, 5 devatas do not seem to appear as the number of devatas

in any given avarana (of yantras etc). Usually, you have 6 (shat-

kona), 6 (anga-puja), 8 (ashta-dala-padma), [[ other even numbered

petals ]], 8 (dig-palakas), 8 (ayudhas). The numbers are generally

even. When the pancha-loka-pala puja & the navagraha puja are done

separately before the Satyanarayana puja proper, they have odd

numbers (5 & 9 respectively). However, when they are placed in a

single mandala, and understood to be the expansion of the same Sri-

Satyanarayana, they themselves become avarana devatas of Sri

Satyanarayana. The loka-palakas become 6 with the addition of

Saraswati, and the Navagrahas become 8 since Rahu & Ketu (head &

tail) are placed in the same dala. So, also, in similar styled

pujas, you make come across durga-adi-ashtha-loka-palaka-s.

 

> But if the religious rituals are

> undertaken, they need to be performed with full faith and

trikarana

> shuddhi, and as prescribed in the shastras.

> " Ineffectiveness " may not be used as a goad but as a reality.

 

Of course, they need to be performed with faith and shuddhi while

sticking to the texts as closely as possible. But, " ineffectiveness "

is most certainly a goad also. According to texts, sandhyavandanam

is completely ineffective unless it is performed at the trikala

sandhyas 1008 times per day. Yet, have you ever heard the

mathadhipathis say " If you happen to wake up late, skip it for the

day since it would be ineffective anyways? " . Never. But they tell

you, you must wake up before sandhya-kala. There is a difference.

Ineffectiveness has to be understood differently.

 

Mantras are ineffective unless they are heard directly from a guru.

Mantras are ineffective unless they are prescribed from a guru with

mantra-shakti. Mantras are ineffective unless their purashcharana is

done. Yet, many here will have experiences where they got wonderful

results where this was not the case. Ineffectiveness has to be

understood differently.

 

If you think I am advocating improperly done pujas, you are

mistaken. I am saying that " advaita-bhava " can (and should) be

developed in puja also, while simultaneously sticking to all the

details prescribed in the texts. As time goes on, and I understand

the rules better, I perform them while trying to stick to them as

best as I can. For example, even to the level of what mudras need to

be used while holding the upachara materials, and to which side &

anga of the devata should dhupa / dipa / naivedya be offered.

However, while time goes on, I perform the same puja (including the

loka pala pujas etc) with much better advaita-bhava. While

performing the avarana puja, it has to be done with great shraddha

etc, but once the avarana puja is done, and you are worshipping sri-

satyanarayana, it is him alone that should be in the mind. No other

thought should be there. Thus, the puja teaches us to systematically

move inward, and develop a one-pointed intellect. All samskaras are,

after all, a preparation for the serious path towards sannyasa that

we will undertake in some lifetime.

 

> Do I dump the alphabet and the other basics I learnt whenever I

graduate to the next level?

 

Do you still use your fingers to determine the results of 2 + 3? Do

you spell out each word in your mind before you type it, or does it

just happen? You may not " dump it " , but the way you use it has

certainly changed, hasn't it? Once a door is opened, you can walk

through it at any time.

 

> Shankaracharyas are liberated souls and follow the nivritti

maarga,

so do all these rituals matter to them? If not why did Adi Shankara

lay down such a process? Because whether it's householders or

sannyasins certain discipline is necessary where spiritual matters

are concenrned.

 

The rituals don't matter to them. Those that do them, do them for

the good of mankind _as a result of their purva-karmas_. Or rather,

they do nothing, but their bodies continue along the path, impelled

by previous karma unless the current body drops off. I undestand

your logic, there is much more here, and would require many long

discussions of its own. Do some reading into the life of

Chandrashekara Bharati, or Sri Vidyasankara. All is not as it

appears.

 

> Adi shankara himself had to under go experiences related to

duality

> in order to learn. He had to do parakaaya pravesham into a dead

body

> to learn about certain facts of life and another episode was when

he

> was accosted and interrogated by the Chandala.

 

This story is not universally accepted, particularly in the higher

echelons of the parampara. Many learned scholars completely reject

this episode.

 

> He found Mother both as Mayaa and Satyam.

 

That which is mAyA cannot be satyam. `yA mA sA mAyA'. That which is

not [satyam] is mAyA.

 

> Advaita needs practical application and needs to be ingrained into

our

> responses to every day situations.

 

And is precisely why it needs to be taught very carefully from a

guru as it can be twisted all over the place if not properly

understood.

 

> In fact the term " sannyasa " can be decoded as samyak+nyaasa!!

 

nyAsA has two meanings, since there are two sides to every coin. It

means `to place' etc, but simultaneously, it also means `to abandon'

also. I'll let you ponder over it.

 

ajit

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave Namah

 

Namaste Ajit,

 

Thanks for the lovely discussion. I am sure all of us have got some

points to ponder about.

 

I feel that trikarana shuddhi and singular focus of iccha (manasaa),

gnana (vaachaa), kriya (karmanaa) shaktis is necessary not only in

poojas, but is necessary in all matters. Any karma performed with

such totality of concentration, without an eye on the result, is

indeed worship of the Almighty. If Valmiki's " maraa " or if

Ekalavya's idol of Guru delivered such tremendous results, it is

because of this.

 

sarvam shiva mayam jagat.

 

Regards,

Lakshmi

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

sohamsa , " Ajit Krishnan " <ajit.krishnan

wrote:

>

> Bharat> I personally as well the scriptural texts do not allow the

> usage of the words " Path " .

>

> Within the sampradaya, the terms `pravritti-marga' and `nivritti-

> marga' are used quite often to get the point across.

>

> Lakshmi> What could be the meaning of shad-loka paalas?

>

> Generally, 5 devatas do not seem to appear as the number of

devatas

> in any given avarana (of yantras etc). Usually, you have 6 (shat-

> kona), 6 (anga-puja), 8 (ashta-dala-padma), [[ other even numbered

> petals ]], 8 (dig-palakas), 8 (ayudhas). The numbers are generally

> even. When the pancha-loka-pala puja & the navagraha puja are done

> separately before the Satyanarayana puja proper, they have odd

> numbers (5 & 9 respectively). However, when they are placed in a

> single mandala, and understood to be the expansion of the same Sri-

> Satyanarayana, they themselves become avarana devatas of Sri

> Satyanarayana. The loka-palakas become 6 with the addition of

> Saraswati, and the Navagrahas become 8 since Rahu & Ketu (head &

> tail) are placed in the same dala. So, also, in similar styled

> pujas, you make come across durga-adi-ashtha-loka-palaka-s.

>

> > But if the religious rituals are

> > undertaken, they need to be performed with full faith and

> trikarana

> > shuddhi, and as prescribed in the shastras.

> > " Ineffectiveness " may not be used as a goad but as a reality.

>

> Of course, they need to be performed with faith and shuddhi while

> sticking to the texts as closely as possible.

But, " ineffectiveness "

> is most certainly a goad also. According to texts, sandhyavandanam

> is completely ineffective unless it is performed at the trikala

> sandhyas 1008 times per day. Yet, have you ever heard the

> mathadhipathis say " If you happen to wake up late, skip it for the

> day since it would be ineffective anyways? " . Never. But they tell

> you, you must wake up before sandhya-kala. There is a difference.

> Ineffectiveness has to be understood differently.

>

> Mantras are ineffective unless they are heard directly from a

guru.

> Mantras are ineffective unless they are prescribed from a guru

with

> mantra-shakti. Mantras are ineffective unless their purashcharana

is

> done. Yet, many here will have experiences where they got

wonderful

> results where this was not the case. Ineffectiveness has to be

> understood differently.

>

> If you think I am advocating improperly done pujas, you are

> mistaken. I am saying that " advaita-bhava " can (and should) be

> developed in puja also, while simultaneously sticking to all the

> details prescribed in the texts. As time goes on, and I understand

> the rules better, I perform them while trying to stick to them as

> best as I can. For example, even to the level of what mudras need

to

> be used while holding the upachara materials, and to which side &

> anga of the devata should dhupa / dipa / naivedya be offered.

> However, while time goes on, I perform the same puja (including

the

> loka pala pujas etc) with much better advaita-bhava. While

> performing the avarana puja, it has to be done with great shraddha

> etc, but once the avarana puja is done, and you are worshipping

sri-

> satyanarayana, it is him alone that should be in the mind. No

other

> thought should be there. Thus, the puja teaches us to

systematically

> move inward, and develop a one-pointed intellect. All samskaras

are,

> after all, a preparation for the serious path towards sannyasa

that

> we will undertake in some lifetime.

>

> > Do I dump the alphabet and the other basics I learnt whenever I

> graduate to the next level?

>

> Do you still use your fingers to determine the results of 2 + 3?

Do

> you spell out each word in your mind before you type it, or does

it

> just happen? You may not " dump it " , but the way you use it has

> certainly changed, hasn't it? Once a door is opened, you can walk

> through it at any time.

>

> > Shankaracharyas are liberated souls and follow the nivritti

> maarga,

> so do all these rituals matter to them? If not why did Adi

Shankara

> lay down such a process? Because whether it's householders or

> sannyasins certain discipline is necessary where spiritual matters

> are concenrned.

>

> The rituals don't matter to them. Those that do them, do them for

> the good of mankind _as a result of their purva-karmas_. Or

rather,

> they do nothing, but their bodies continue along the path,

impelled

> by previous karma unless the current body drops off. I undestand

> your logic, there is much more here, and would require many long

> discussions of its own. Do some reading into the life of

> Chandrashekara Bharati, or Sri Vidyasankara. All is not as it

> appears.

>

> > Adi shankara himself had to under go experiences related to

> duality

> > in order to learn. He had to do parakaaya pravesham into a dead

> body

> > to learn about certain facts of life and another episode was

when

> he

> > was accosted and interrogated by the Chandala.

>

> This story is not universally accepted, particularly in the higher

> echelons of the parampara. Many learned scholars completely reject

> this episode.

>

> > He found Mother both as Mayaa and Satyam.

>

> That which is mAyA cannot be satyam. `yA mA sA mAyA'. That which

is

> not [satyam] is mAyA.

>

> > Advaita needs practical application and needs to be ingrained

into

> our

> > responses to every day situations.

>

> And is precisely why it needs to be taught very carefully from a

> guru as it can be twisted all over the place if not properly

> understood.

>

> > In fact the term " sannyasa " can be decoded as samyak+nyaasa!!

>

> nyAsA has two meanings, since there are two sides to every coin.

It

> means `to place' etc, but simultaneously, it also means `to

abandon'

> also. I'll let you ponder over it.

>

> ajit

>

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave Namah

 

Dear Ajit,

 

Namaste.

 

> > He found Mother both as Mayaa and Satyam.

>

> That which is mAyA cannot be satyam. `yA mA sA mAyA'. That which

is

> not [satyam] is mAyA.

 

Lakshmi: Mother is descibed as " Vidya avidya swaroopini " in Lalitha

sahasranaamam. Sri Devyupanishat also says the same thing. If we

say that Maya is not Brahman, and yet Maya exists (for a temporary

period), are we not contradicting the statement that Brahman is All?

 

Maya can not exist on its own. It is like a reflection (albeit a

distorted one:--)) of Truth. Like, this body is maya, and is

perishable, but the soul it contains is Eternal and certainly not

maya. Is the soul less Brahman because it is enveloped in maaya?

 

There are some like Sri Ramakrishna, who can cut away and correct

the distortion and for them the Maya is a replica of Truth and their

essence is the same.

 

>

why it needs to be taught very carefully from a

Ø guru

 

Lakshmi: I agree. Guru is a very important influence in shaping

one's philosophy of life. Learning by reading from shastras is

another. But in such abstract subjects, significant insight can be

gained by focused introspection (tapasya). I am sure that's why

Guruji wanted this discussion to materialize.

 

I have read many books & articles on Kanchi Mahaswami and have had

the good fortune of meeting him too. Infact, if you happen to visit

Hyderabad, please take some time off to visit a Sri Rama temple near

Hi tech city (Madapur). It's a beautiful temple complex and is built

by my cousin brother at the express wish of Kanchi Mahaswamy.

 

One thing I still do not understand. You said that the

Shankaracharyas undertake rituals to guide people and they

themselves do not need it. Is advaita meant only for sannyasis?

Why do grihastas invariably have take to pravritti maarga? Why

should there be a difference between Shankaracharya and the lay

person, unless one is differentiating on the basis of maaya and

giving undue weightage to it? If the Brahman who dwells in the

sannyasi and the samsaari is the same, then why does one need

different approaches?

 

Infact, the very saying " aham brahmaasmi " itself talks of two

entities (I and Brahman) and their oneness. It's like an assertion,

a declaration. When there's none other than Brahman, to whom is it

being declared / asserted?

 

Regards,

Lakshmi

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

> > In fact the term " sannyasa " can be decoded as samyak+nyaasa!!

>

> nyAsA has two meanings, since there are two sides to every coin.

It

> means `to place' etc, but simultaneously, it also means `to

abandon'

> also. I'll let you ponder over it.

>

 

 

 

sohamsa , " Ajit Krishnan " <ajit.krishnan

wrote:

>

> Bharat> I personally as well the scriptural texts do not allow the

> usage of the words " Path " .

>

> Within the sampradaya, the terms `pravritti-marga' and `nivritti-

> marga' are used quite often to get the point across.

>

> Lakshmi> What could be the meaning of shad-loka paalas?

>

> Generally, 5 devatas do not seem to appear as the number of

devatas

> in any given avarana (of yantras etc). Usually, you have 6 (shat-

> kona), 6 (anga-puja), 8 (ashta-dala-padma), [[ other even numbered

> petals ]], 8 (dig-palakas), 8 (ayudhas). The numbers are generally

> even. When the pancha-loka-pala puja & the navagraha puja are done

> separately before the Satyanarayana puja proper, they have odd

> numbers (5 & 9 respectively). However, when they are placed in a

> single mandala, and understood to be the expansion of the same Sri-

> Satyanarayana, they themselves become avarana devatas of Sri

> Satyanarayana. The loka-palakas become 6 with the addition of

> Saraswati, and the Navagrahas become 8 since Rahu & Ketu (head &

> tail) are placed in the same dala. So, also, in similar styled

> pujas, you make come across durga-adi-ashtha-loka-palaka-s.

>

> > But if the religious rituals are

> > undertaken, they need to be performed with full faith and

> trikarana

> > shuddhi, and as prescribed in the shastras.

> > " Ineffectiveness " may not be used as a goad but as a reality.

>

> Of course, they need to be performed with faith and shuddhi while

> sticking to the texts as closely as possible.

But, " ineffectiveness "

> is most certainly a goad also. According to texts, sandhyavandanam

> is completely ineffective unless it is performed at the trikala

> sandhyas 1008 times per day. Yet, have you ever heard the

> mathadhipathis say " If you happen to wake up late, skip it for the

> day since it would be ineffective anyways? " . Never. But they tell

> you, you must wake up before sandhya-kala. There is a difference.

> Ineffectiveness has to be understood differently.

>

> Mantras are ineffective unless they are heard directly from a

guru.

> Mantras are ineffective unless they are prescribed from a guru

with

> mantra-shakti. Mantras are ineffective unless their purashcharana

is

> done. Yet, many here will have experiences where they got

wonderful

> results where this was not the case. Ineffectiveness has to be

> understood differently.

>

> If you think I am advocating improperly done pujas, you are

> mistaken. I am saying that " advaita-bhava " can (and should) be

> developed in puja also, while simultaneously sticking to all the

> details prescribed in the texts. As time goes on, and I understand

> the rules better, I perform them while trying to stick to them as

> best as I can. For example, even to the level of what mudras need

to

> be used while holding the upachara materials, and to which side &

> anga of the devata should dhupa / dipa / naivedya be offered.

> However, while time goes on, I perform the same puja (including

the

> loka pala pujas etc) with much better advaita-bhava. While

> performing the avarana puja, it has to be done with great shraddha

> etc, but once the avarana puja is done, and you are worshipping

sri-

> satyanarayana, it is him alone that should be in the mind. No

other

> thought should be there. Thus, the puja teaches us to

systematically

> move inward, and develop a one-pointed intellect. All samskaras

are,

> after all, a preparation for the serious path towards sannyasa

that

> we will undertake in some lifetime.

>

> > Do I dump the alphabet and the other basics I learnt whenever I

> graduate to the next level?

>

> Do you still use your fingers to determine the results of 2 + 3?

Do

> you spell out each word in your mind before you type it, or does

it

> just happen? You may not " dump it " , but the way you use it has

> certainly changed, hasn't it? Once a door is opened, you can walk

> through it at any time.

>

> > Shankaracharyas are liberated souls and follow the nivritti

> maarga,

> so do all these rituals matter to them? If not why did Adi

Shankara

> lay down such a process? Because whether it's householders or

> sannyasins certain discipline is necessary where spiritual matters

> are concenrned.

>

> The rituals don't matter to them. Those that do them, do them for

> the good of mankind _as a result of their purva-karmas_. Or

rather,

> they do nothing, but their bodies continue along the path,

impelled

> by previous karma unless the current body drops off. I undestand

> your logic, there is much more here, and would require many long

> discussions of its own. Do some reading into the life of

> Chandrashekara Bharati, or Sri Vidyasankara. All is not as it

> appears.

>

> > Adi shankara himself had to under go experiences related to

> duality

> > in order to learn. He had to do parakaaya pravesham into a dead

> body

> > to learn about certain facts of life and another episode was

when

> he

> > was accosted and interrogated by the Chandala.

>

> This story is not universally accepted, particularly in the higher

> echelons of the parampara. Many learned scholars completely reject

> this episode.

>

> > He found Mother both as Mayaa and Satyam.

>

> That which is mAyA cannot be satyam. `yA mA sA mAyA'. That which

is

> not [satyam] is mAyA.

>

> > Advaita needs practical application and needs to be ingrained

into

> our

> > responses to every day situations.

>

> And is precisely why it needs to be taught very carefully from a

> guru as it can be twisted all over the place if not properly

> understood.

>

> > In fact the term " sannyasa " can be decoded as samyak+nyaasa!!

>

> nyAsA has two meanings, since there are two sides to every coin.

It

> means `to place' etc, but simultaneously, it also means `to

abandon'

> also. I'll let you ponder over it.

>

> ajit

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste friends,

 

One very quick remark.

 

According to Vasishtha, the so-called maya is Brahman too. If Brahman is an ocean, the maya is like a surface tension causing ripples in the ocean that start thinking of themselves as ripples and not as ocean. However, the surface tension and the surface ripples are ocean too. Maya and the objects etched out by maya are Brahman too.

 

True Adwaita is not about dismissing a lot of things as "mithya" or "illusion", but to see Brahman in those too.

 

BTW, sannyasa is not samyak + nyasa. Instead it is sat+nyasa. Sat means good. Good giving up.

 

 

 

May the light of Brahman shine within,

 

Narasimha

-------------------------------

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-------------------------------

> Om Gurave Namah> > Dear Ajit,> > Namaste. > > > > He found Mother both as Mayaa and Satyam. > > > > That which is mAyA cannot be satyam. `yA mA sA mAyA'. That which > is > > not [satyam] is mAyA. > > Lakshmi: Mother is descibed as "Vidya avidya swaroopini" in Lalitha > sahasranaamam. Sri Devyupanishat also says the same thing. If we > say that Maya is not Brahman, and yet Maya exists (for a temporary > period), are we not contradicting the statement that Brahman is All? > > Maya can not exist on its own. It is like a reflection (albeit a > distorted one:--)) of Truth. Like, this body is maya, and is > perishable, but the soul it contains is Eternal and certainly not > maya. Is the soul less Brahman because it is enveloped in maaya?> > There are some like Sri Ramakrishna, who can cut away and correct > the distortion and for them the Maya is a replica of Truth and their > essence is the same. > > > > why it needs to be taught very carefully from a > Ø guru > > Lakshmi: I agree. Guru is a very important influence in shaping > one's philosophy of life. Learning by reading from shastras is > another. But in such abstract subjects, significant insight can be > gained by focused introspection (tapasya). I am sure that's why > Guruji wanted this discussion to materialize.> > I have read many books & articles on Kanchi Mahaswami and have had > the good fortune of meeting him too. Infact, if you happen to visit > Hyderabad, please take some time off to visit a Sri Rama temple near > Hi tech city (Madapur). It's a beautiful temple complex and is built > by my cousin brother at the express wish of Kanchi Mahaswamy.> > One thing I still do not understand. You said that the > Shankaracharyas undertake rituals to guide people and they > themselves do not need it. Is advaita meant only for sannyasis? > Why do grihastas invariably have take to pravritti maarga? Why > should there be a difference between Shankaracharya and the lay > person, unless one is differentiating on the basis of maaya and > giving undue weightage to it? If the Brahman who dwells in the > sannyasi and the samsaari is the same, then why does one need > different approaches? > > Infact, the very saying "aham brahmaasmi" itself talks of two > entities (I and Brahman) and their oneness. It's like an assertion, > a declaration. When there's none other than Brahman, to whom is it > being declared / asserted?> > Regards,> Lakshmi > > > > > > > > > > In fact the term "sannyasa " can be decoded as samyak+nyaasa!!> > > > nyAsA has two meanings, since there are two sides to every coin. > It > > means `to place' etc, but simultaneously, it also means `to > abandon' > > also. I'll let you ponder over it. > >> > > > sohamsa , "Ajit Krishnan" <ajit.krishnan@> > wrote:> >> > Bharat> I personally as well the scriptural texts do not allow the > > usage of the words "Path".> > > > Within the sampradaya, the terms `pravritti-marga' and `nivritti-> > marga' are used quite often to get the point across. > > > > Lakshmi> What could be the meaning of shad-loka paalas? > > > > Generally, 5 devatas do not seem to appear as the number of > devatas > > in any given avarana (of yantras etc). Usually, you have 6 (shat-> > kona), 6 (anga-puja), 8 (ashta-dala-padma), [[ other even numbered > > petals ]], 8 (dig-palakas), 8 (ayudhas). The numbers are generally > > even. When the pancha-loka-pala puja & the navagraha puja are done > > separately before the Satyanarayana puja proper, they have odd > > numbers (5 & 9 respectively). However, when they are placed in a > > single mandala, and understood to be the expansion of the same Sri-> > Satyanarayana, they themselves become avarana devatas of Sri > > Satyanarayana. The loka-palakas become 6 with the addition of > > Saraswati, and the Navagrahas become 8 since Rahu & Ketu (head & > > tail) are placed in the same dala. So, also, in similar styled > > pujas, you make come across durga-adi-ashtha-loka-palaka-s.> > > > > But if the religious rituals are > > > undertaken, they need to be performed with full faith and > > trikarana > > > shuddhi, and as prescribed in the shastras. > > > "Ineffectiveness" may not be used as a goad but as a reality. > > > > Of course, they need to be performed with faith and shuddhi while > > sticking to the texts as closely as possible. > But, "ineffectiveness" > > is most certainly a goad also. According to texts, sandhyavandanam > > is completely ineffective unless it is performed at the trikala > > sandhyas 1008 times per day. Yet, have you ever heard the > > mathadhipathis say "If you happen to wake up late, skip it for the > > day since it would be ineffective anyways?". Never. But they tell > > you, you must wake up before sandhya-kala. There is a difference. > > Ineffectiveness has to be understood differently. > > > > Mantras are ineffective unless they are heard directly from a > guru. > > Mantras are ineffective unless they are prescribed from a guru > with > > mantra-shakti. Mantras are ineffective unless their purashcharana > is > > done. Yet, many here will have experiences where they got > wonderful > > results where this was not the case. Ineffectiveness has to be > > understood differently. > > > > If you think I am advocating improperly done pujas, you are > > mistaken. I am saying that "advaita-bhava" can (and should) be > > developed in puja also, while simultaneously sticking to all the > > details prescribed in the texts. As time goes on, and I understand > > the rules better, I perform them while trying to stick to them as > > best as I can. For example, even to the level of what mudras need > to > > be used while holding the upachara materials, and to which side & > > anga of the devata should dhupa / dipa / naivedya be offered. > > However, while time goes on, I perform the same puja (including > the > > loka pala pujas etc) with much better advaita-bhava. While > > performing the avarana puja, it has to be done with great shraddha > > etc, but once the avarana puja is done, and you are worshipping > sri-> > satyanarayana, it is him alone that should be in the mind. No > other > > thought should be there. Thus, the puja teaches us to > systematically > > move inward, and develop a one-pointed intellect. All samskaras > are, > > after all, a preparation for the serious path towards sannyasa > that > > we will undertake in some lifetime. > > > > > Do I dump the alphabet and the other basics I learnt whenever I > > graduate to the next level? > > > > Do you still use your fingers to determine the results of 2 + 3? > Do > > you spell out each word in your mind before you type it, or does > it > > just happen? You may not "dump it", but the way you use it has > > certainly changed, hasn't it? Once a door is opened, you can walk > > through it at any time. > > > > > Shankaracharyas are liberated souls and follow the nivritti > > maarga, > > so do all these rituals matter to them? If not why did Adi > Shankara > > lay down such a process? Because whether it's householders or > > sannyasins certain discipline is necessary where spiritual matters > > are concenrned. > > > > The rituals don't matter to them. Those that do them, do them for > > the good of mankind _as a result of their purva-karmas_. Or > rather, > > they do nothing, but their bodies continue along the path, > impelled > > by previous karma unless the current body drops off. I undestand > > your logic, there is much more here, and would require many long > > discussions of its own. Do some reading into the life of > > Chandrashekara Bharati, or Sri Vidyasankara. All is not as it > > appears. > > > > > Adi shankara himself had to under go experiences related to > > duality > > > in order to learn. He had to do parakaaya pravesham into a dead > > body > > > to learn about certain facts of life and another episode was > when > > he > > > was accosted and interrogated by the Chandala. > > > > This story is not universally accepted, particularly in the higher > > echelons of the parampara. Many learned scholars completely reject > > this episode. > > > > > He found Mother both as Mayaa and Satyam. > > > > That which is mAyA cannot be satyam. `yA mA sA mAyA'. That which > is > > not [satyam] is mAyA. > > > > > Advaita needs practical application and needs to be ingrained > into > > our > > > responses to every day situations. > > > > And is precisely why it needs to be taught very carefully from a > > guru as it can be twisted all over the place if not properly > > understood.> > > > > In fact the term "sannyasa " can be decoded as samyak+nyaasa!!> > > > nyAsA has two meanings, since there are two sides to every coin. > It > > means `to place' etc, but simultaneously, it also means `to > abandon' > > also. I'll let you ponder over it. > > > > ajit

[Guest guest]

Dear Lakshmi

 

> If we say that Maya is not Brahman, and yet Maya exists (for a

temporary

> period), are we not contradicting the statement that Brahman is

All?

 

When (and only when) we talk at the level of brahman, existence is

permanent. At this level, there is no such thing as existence for a

temporary period. Advaita does not deny mAyA or this world around

us. It simply denies the status of [absolute] reality to mAyA and

the world around us.

 

> Infact, if you happen to visit

> Hyderabad, please take some time off to visit a Sri Rama temple

near

> Hi tech city (Madapur). It's a beautiful temple complex and is

built

> by my cousin brother at the express wish of Kanchi Mahaswamy.

 

Thanks! I will certainly try to do so if I'm in Hyderabad.

 

> Why should there be a difference between Shankaracharya and the

lay

> person, unless one is differentiating on the basis of maaya and

> giving undue weightage to it?

 

There is vyAvahArika (relative) reality and pAramArthika (absolute)

reality, and one has to be very careful not to mix up the two in the

course of our logical arguments. We are agyanis who are trying to

become gyanis. This is not pAramArthika satyam, but this is how we

have conditioned ourselves to think in this vyavaharika world.

 

A dreamer's " dream-thirst " is quenched only by drinking water in the

dream world and not otherwise. Similarly, " agyana " and " removing

agyana " belong to the same strata of reality, and any " agyana " has

to be removed (so to speak) in the same level of reality where

agyana (maya) exists (as it were).

 

Sannyasis are special, because among us, they are truly mumukshus

dedicated to the pursuit of moksha. A vedic initiate has access to

the same veda as a brahmachari, grihastha, vanaprastha and sannyasi.

But, he uses it differently. Initially he learns, as a grihastha he

applies, as a vanaprastha he starts to contemplate, and as a

sannyasi he truly embarks on the path of renunciation.

 

This is varna-ashrama-dharma. This notion of 'dharma' itself is a

concept in vyAvahAric reality only. The notion of samskaras, pujas,

truthfulness etc are all concepts in the vyavaharika world. We are

all " living in this world " , and we must find the solution in this

world itself. This is why advaita does not really have any use for

svarga, brahma-loka, vishnu-loka etc. This " seeming " vyAvahArika

avidya needs to go away here, in the vyAvahArika world, for in a

pAramArthika absolute sense, there is no avidya in the first place.

 

The difference between gyanis and myself is that I believe that

there is a difference (between them and me), and hence, I am

subject to different rules as per dharma. In the case of gyanis,

they entertain no such difference. But their body exists in this

vhAvahArika world. And impelled with [vyAvahArika] purva-karma, the

[vyAvahArika] body continues to [vyAvahArika] act as per

[vyAvahArika] dharma.

 

> If the Brahman who dwells in the

> sannyasi and the samsaari is the same, then why does one need

> different approaches?

 

Because the samsaari has placed samsaaratvam on himself. It is not

brahman's doing. Hence, with the constant cleansing of karmas, one

tries to remove the dirt with which one has encrusted one's own

vyAvahArika mind.

 

> Infact, the very saying " aham brahmaasmi " itself talks of two

entities.

 

Of course, since this saying is intended for the vyAvahArika person

who sees varied vyAvahArika entities.

 

> When there's none other than Brahman, to whom is it being

declared / asserted?

 

Precisely. No more triputhis. But none of us are at that stage. So

we continue along the course of outwardly dvaitic worldly life,

performing samskaras while trying to develop the qualities which

will be useful in the pursuit of self-deliberation in a lifetime

far, far down the road.

 

ajit

 

Thanks to all of you for the discussion. In the end though, all

schools of thought teach the same practical way out: perform karmas,

pujas, samskaras and other sadhana, and dedicate them to the ishta-

devata.

[Guest guest]

Dear Narasimha,

 

> True Adwaita is not about dismissing a lot of things as " mithya "

or " illusion " , but to see Brahman in those too.

 

Dismissing the world around us as 'mithya' neither implies that it is

unreal, nor implies that it is not brahman (in the pAramArthika

sense). It simply identifies it as being impermanent by relegating it

to the vyAvahArika strata of reality which we all live and breathe.

 

ajit

[Guest guest]

Om Gurave Namah

 

Namaste Narasimha garu and Ajit,

 

Thanks for your enlightening participation in this discussion. I

think I am slowly coming round to the view that the three functions

of GodHead, viz., srishti, sthithi and samhaara are the roots of

dwaita, vishistaadvaita and advaita approaches respectively and need

to be understood as such.

 

Narasimha garu, thanks for the correction. samyak+nyaasa is indeed

incorrect, and i did correct my mistake in my very next post, and

requested all to ignore the " + " between the two words:--))

 

But sannyasa can be explained as " samyak " ( total,

complete) " nyaasa " . Isn't " Sat " by its very nature true & complete?

 

Regards,

Lakshmi

 

 

 

 

 

sohamsa , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr

wrote:

>

> Namaste friends,

>

> One very quick remark.

>

> According to Vasishtha, the so-called maya is Brahman too. If

Brahman is an ocean, the maya is like a surface tension causing

ripples in the ocean that start thinking of themselves as ripples

and not as ocean. However, the surface tension and the surface

ripples are ocean too. Maya and the objects etched out by maya are

Brahman too.

>

> True Adwaita is not about dismissing a lot of things as " mithya "

or " illusion " , but to see Brahman in those too.

>

> BTW, sannyasa is not samyak + nyasa. Instead it is sat+nyasa. Sat

means good. Good giving up.

>

> May the light of Brahman shine within,

> Narasimha

> -------------------------------

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> -------------------------------

>

> > Om Gurave Namah

> >

> > Dear Ajit,

> >

> > Namaste.

> >

> > > > He found Mother both as Mayaa and Satyam.

> > >

> > > That which is mAyA cannot be satyam. `yA mA sA mAyA'. That

which

> > is

> > > not [satyam] is mAyA.

> >

> > Lakshmi: Mother is descibed as " Vidya avidya swaroopini " in

Lalitha

> > sahasranaamam. Sri Devyupanishat also says the same thing. If

we

> > say that Maya is not Brahman, and yet Maya exists (for a

temporary

> > period), are we not contradicting the statement that Brahman is

All?

> >

> > Maya can not exist on its own. It is like a reflection (albeit a

> > distorted one:--)) of Truth. Like, this body is maya, and is

> > perishable, but the soul it contains is Eternal and certainly

not

> > maya. Is the soul less Brahman because it is enveloped in maaya?

> >

> > There are some like Sri Ramakrishna, who can cut away and

correct

> > the distortion and for them the Maya is a replica of Truth and

their

> > essence is the same.

> >

> > >

> > why it needs to be taught very carefully from a

> > Ø guru

> >

> > Lakshmi: I agree. Guru is a very important influence in shaping

> > one's philosophy of life. Learning by reading from shastras is

> > another. But in such abstract subjects, significant insight can

be

> > gained by focused introspection (tapasya). I am sure that's why

> > Guruji wanted this discussion to materialize.

> >

> > I have read many books & articles on Kanchi Mahaswami and have

had

> > the good fortune of meeting him too. Infact, if you happen to

visit

> > Hyderabad, please take some time off to visit a Sri Rama temple

near

> > Hi tech city (Madapur). It's a beautiful temple complex and is

built

> > by my cousin brother at the express wish of Kanchi Mahaswamy.

> >

> > One thing I still do not understand. You said that the

> > Shankaracharyas undertake rituals to guide people and they

> > themselves do not need it. Is advaita meant only for sannyasis?

> > Why do grihastas invariably have take to pravritti maarga? Why

> > should there be a difference between Shankaracharya and the lay

> > person, unless one is differentiating on the basis of maaya and

> > giving undue weightage to it? If the Brahman who dwells in the

> > sannyasi and the samsaari is the same, then why does one need

> > different approaches?

> >

> > Infact, the very saying " aham brahmaasmi " itself talks of two

> > entities (I and Brahman) and their oneness. It's like an

assertion,

> > a declaration. When there's none other than Brahman, to whom is

it

> > being declared / asserted?

> >

> > Regards,

> > Lakshmi

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > > > In fact the term " sannyasa " can be decoded as

samyak+nyaasa!!

> > >

> > > nyAsA has two meanings, since there are two sides to every

coin.

> > It

> > > means `to place' etc, but simultaneously, it also means `to

> > abandon'

> > > also. I'll let you ponder over it.

> > >

> >

> >

> >

> > sohamsa , " Ajit Krishnan " <ajit.krishnan@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Bharat> I personally as well the scriptural texts do not allow

the

> > > usage of the words " Path " .

> > >

> > > Within the sampradaya, the terms `pravritti-marga' and

`nivritti-

> > > marga' are used quite often to get the point across.

> > >

> > > Lakshmi> What could be the meaning of shad-loka paalas?

> > >

> > > Generally, 5 devatas do not seem to appear as the number of

> > devatas

> > > in any given avarana (of yantras etc). Usually, you have 6

(shat-

> > > kona), 6 (anga-puja), 8 (ashta-dala-padma), [[ other even

numbered

> > > petals ]], 8 (dig-palakas), 8 (ayudhas). The numbers are

generally

> > > even. When the pancha-loka-pala puja & the navagraha puja are

done

> > > separately before the Satyanarayana puja proper, they have odd

> > > numbers (5 & 9 respectively). However, when they are placed in

a

> > > single mandala, and understood to be the expansion of the same

Sri-

> > > Satyanarayana, they themselves become avarana devatas of Sri

> > > Satyanarayana. The loka-palakas become 6 with the addition of

> > > Saraswati, and the Navagrahas become 8 since Rahu & Ketu (head

&

> > > tail) are placed in the same dala. So, also, in similar styled

> > > pujas, you make come across durga-adi-ashtha-loka-palaka-s.

> > >

> > > > But if the religious rituals are

> > > > undertaken, they need to be performed with full faith and

> > > trikarana

> > > > shuddhi, and as prescribed in the shastras.

> > > > " Ineffectiveness " may not be used as a goad but as a

reality.

> > >

> > > Of course, they need to be performed with faith and shuddhi

while

> > > sticking to the texts as closely as possible.

> > But, " ineffectiveness "

> > > is most certainly a goad also. According to texts,

sandhyavandanam

> > > is completely ineffective unless it is performed at the

trikala

> > > sandhyas 1008 times per day. Yet, have you ever heard the

> > > mathadhipathis say " If you happen to wake up late, skip it for

the

> > > day since it would be ineffective anyways? " . Never. But they

tell

> > > you, you must wake up before sandhya-kala. There is a

difference.

> > > Ineffectiveness has to be understood differently.

> > >

> > > Mantras are ineffective unless they are heard directly from a

> > guru.

> > > Mantras are ineffective unless they are prescribed from a guru

> > with

> > > mantra-shakti. Mantras are ineffective unless their

purashcharana

> > is

> > > done. Yet, many here will have experiences where they got

> > wonderful

> > > results where this was not the case. Ineffectiveness has to be

> > > understood differently.

> > >

> > > If you think I am advocating improperly done pujas, you are

> > > mistaken. I am saying that " advaita-bhava " can (and should) be

> > > developed in puja also, while simultaneously sticking to all

the

> > > details prescribed in the texts. As time goes on, and I

understand

> > > the rules better, I perform them while trying to stick to them

as

> > > best as I can. For example, even to the level of what mudras

need

> > to

> > > be used while holding the upachara materials, and to which

side &

> > > anga of the devata should dhupa / dipa / naivedya be offered.

> > > However, while time goes on, I perform the same puja

(including

> > the

> > > loka pala pujas etc) with much better advaita-bhava. While

> > > performing the avarana puja, it has to be done with great

shraddha

> > > etc, but once the avarana puja is done, and you are

worshipping

> > sri-

> > > satyanarayana, it is him alone that should be in the mind. No

> > other

> > > thought should be there. Thus, the puja teaches us to

> > systematically

> > > move inward, and develop a one-pointed intellect. All

samskaras

> > are,

> > > after all, a preparation for the serious path towards sannyasa

> > that

> > > we will undertake in some lifetime.

> > >

> > > > Do I dump the alphabet and the other basics I learnt

whenever I

> > > graduate to the next level?

> > >

> > > Do you still use your fingers to determine the results of 2 +

3?

> > Do

> > > you spell out each word in your mind before you type it, or

does

> > it

> > > just happen? You may not " dump it " , but the way you use it has

> > > certainly changed, hasn't it? Once a door is opened, you can

walk

> > > through it at any time.

> > >

> > > > Shankaracharyas are liberated souls and follow the nivritti

> > > maarga,

> > > so do all these rituals matter to them? If not why did Adi

> > Shankara

> > > lay down such a process? Because whether it's householders or

> > > sannyasins certain discipline is necessary where spiritual

matters

> > > are concenrned.

> > >

> > > The rituals don't matter to them. Those that do them, do them

for

> > > the good of mankind _as a result of their purva-karmas_. Or

> > rather,

> > > they do nothing, but their bodies continue along the path,

> > impelled

> > > by previous karma unless the current body drops off. I

undestand

> > > your logic, there is much more here, and would require many

long

> > > discussions of its own. Do some reading into the life of

> > > Chandrashekara Bharati, or Sri Vidyasankara. All is not as it

> > > appears.

> > >

> > > > Adi shankara himself had to under go experiences related to

> > > duality

> > > > in order to learn. He had to do parakaaya pravesham into a

dead

> > > body

> > > > to learn about certain facts of life and another episode was

> > when

> > > he

> > > > was accosted and interrogated by the Chandala.

> > >

> > > This story is not universally accepted, particularly in the

higher

> > > echelons of the parampara. Many learned scholars completely

reject

> > > this episode.

> > >

> > > > He found Mother both as Mayaa and Satyam.

> > >

> > > That which is mAyA cannot be satyam. `yA mA sA mAyA'. That

which

> > is

> > > not [satyam] is mAyA.

> > >

> > > > Advaita needs practical application and needs to be

ingrained

> > into

> > > our

> > > > responses to every day situations.

> > >

> > > And is precisely why it needs to be taught very carefully from

a

> > > guru as it can be twisted all over the place if not properly

> > > understood.

> > >

> > > > In fact the term " sannyasa " can be decoded as

samyak+nyaasa!!

> > >

> > > nyAsA has two meanings, since there are two sides to every

coin.

> > It

> > > means `to place' etc, but simultaneously, it also means `to

> > abandon'

> > > also. I'll let you ponder over it.

> > >

> > > ajit

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Narasimha & Jyotisha's

 

Im not so familiar with details of Advaita/Vishishtadvaita paradigm. I saw that the concept of Sunya (like Sanjay Ji lecture of diseases / Sunya Samhita of Sri Achyuta, my Guruji attitude (last conversation) ) or Advaita concept prevail (i mean it is main trend) in SJC. There is also view that Sri Caitanya followers could accept that theory which is against the branch of Gaudiya (at least what Bhaktisiddhanta/Bh.Thakkura/Six Gosvamis(Sri Rupa & Sri Sanatana) preached). Sometimes I wish there could be some Jyotish explanation also for Dvaitans like me - like for example some note in "Creation" article about other also popular view of creation, or explanation that Jagganth has no feet/eyes (nirguna). I accept that other people can have various views but I think it would be nice & proper to give one small note about other concept.

 

For proper understanding I would like to ask some questions:

 

(1) Why the avidya and maya exists ?

 

I heard one answer that Brahmana has lila, but to be fact this must have some saguna attributes.

 

(2) If Jiva realizes Tattwa and get liberation and become One Atma=Brahman this cycle of getting into maya is cycle (Gita says one who is liberated dont come to material world again)

 

(3) If Jiva realizes the true nature being a Brahmana how the other Jivas can be still under realization (not realized). I know its from view of Vyavaharica but still the practice is under the Vyavaharica nature - like Worship / Getting Up / Washing Body etc.

 

(4) If Brahman is one why I must follow some process to go back to origin state? I dont have power to do this immediately so I dont have enough Sakti (power). If there is Brahman with Sakti and without there is Dwaita which is unacceptable. Ok...I can only dream that I have no power, or my state of non-power is imaginery, but I am still into this condition..and I dont want to suffer but I cannot do anything immediately to stop it.

 

I know there can be mistake in my questions pertaining to mixing the two levels : vyavaharica and reality but please anyone interested to comment on this.

 

Regards

Rafal Gendarz

 

 

 

 

-

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

sohamsa

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 6:00 AM

Re: samba sada shiva & advaita

 

Namaste friends,

 

One very quick remark.

 

According to Vasishtha, the so-called maya is Brahman too. If Brahman is an ocean, the maya is like a surface tension causing ripples in the ocean that start thinking of themselves as ripples and not as ocean. However, the surface tension and the surface ripples are ocean too. Maya and the objects etched out by maya are Brahman too.

 

True Adwaita is not about dismissing a lot of things as "mithya" or "illusion", but to see Brahman in those too.

 

BTW, sannyasa is not samyak + nyasa. Instead it is sat+nyasa. Sat means good. Good giving up.

 

 

 

May the light of Brahman shine within,

 

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

> Om Gurave Namah> > Dear Ajit,> > Namaste. > > > > He found Mother both as Mayaa and Satyam. > > > > That which is mAyA cannot be satyam. `yA mA sA mAyA'. That which > is > > not [satyam] is mAyA. > > Lakshmi: Mother is descibed as "Vidya avidya swaroopini" in Lalitha > sahasranaamam. Sri Devyupanishat also says the same thing. If we > say that Maya is not Brahman, and yet Maya exists (for a temporary > period), are we not contradicting the statement that Brahman is All? > > Maya can not exist on its own. It is like a reflection (albeit a > distorted one:--)) of Truth. Like, this body is maya, and is > perishable, but the soul it contains is Eternal and certainly not > maya. Is the soul less Brahman because it is enveloped in maaya?> > There are some like Sri Ramakrishna, who can cut away and correct > the distortion and for them the Maya is a replica of Truth and their > essence is the same. > > > > why it needs to be taught very carefully from a > Ø guru > > Lakshmi: I agree. Guru is a very important influence in shaping > one's philosophy of life. Learning by reading from shastras is > another. But in such abstract subjects, significant insight can be > gained by focused introspection (tapasya). I am sure that's why > Guruji wanted this discussion to materialize.> > I have read many books & articles on Kanchi Mahaswami and have had > the good fortune of meeting him too. Infact, if you happen to visit > Hyderabad, please take some time off to visit a Sri Rama temple near > Hi tech city (Madapur). It's a beautiful temple complex and is built > by my cousin brother at the express wish of Kanchi Mahaswamy.> > One thing I still do not understand. You said that the > Shankaracharyas undertake rituals to guide people and they > themselves do not need it. Is advaita meant only for sannyasis? > Why do grihastas invariably have take to pravritti maarga? Why > should there be a difference between Shankaracharya and the lay > person, unless one is differentiating on the basis of maaya and > giving undue weightage to it? If the Brahman who dwells in the > sannyasi and the samsaari is the same, then why does one need > different approaches? > > Infact, the very saying "aham brahmaasmi" itself talks of two > entities (I and Brahman) and their oneness. It's like an assertion, > a declaration. When there's none other than Brahman, to whom is it > being declared / asserted?> > Regards,> Lakshmi > > > > > > > > > > In fact the term "sannyasa " can be decoded as samyak+nyaasa!!> > > > nyAsA has two meanings, since there are two sides to every coin. > It > > means `to place' etc, but simultaneously, it also means `to > abandon' > > also. I'll let you ponder over it. > >> > > > sohamsa , "Ajit Krishnan" <ajit.krishnan@> > wrote:> >> > Bharat> I personally as well the scriptural texts do not allow the > > usage of the words "Path".> > > > Within the sampradaya, the terms `pravritti-marga' and `nivritti-> > marga' are used quite often to get the point across. > > > > Lakshmi> What could be the meaning of shad-loka paalas? > > > > Generally, 5 devatas do not seem to appear as the number of > devatas > > in any given avarana (of yantras etc). Usually, you have 6 (shat-> > kona), 6 (anga-puja), 8 (ashta-dala-padma), [[ other even numbered > > petals ]], 8 (dig-palakas), 8 (ayudhas). The numbers are generally > > even. When the pancha-loka-pala puja & the navagraha puja are done > > separately before the Satyanarayana puja proper, they have odd > > numbers (5 & 9 respectively). However, when they are placed in a > > single mandala, and understood to be the expansion of the same Sri-> > Satyanarayana, they themselves become avarana devatas of Sri > > Satyanarayana. The loka-palakas become 6 with the addition of > > Saraswati, and the Navagrahas become 8 since Rahu & Ketu (head & > > tail) are placed in the same dala. So, also, in similar styled > > pujas, you make come across durga-adi-ashtha-loka-palaka-s.> > > > > But if the religious rituals are > > > undertaken, they need to be performed with full faith and > > trikarana > > > shuddhi, and as prescribed in the shastras. > > > "Ineffectiveness" may not be used as a goad but as a reality. > > > > Of course, they need to be performed with faith and shuddhi while > > sticking to the texts as closely as possible. > But, "ineffectiveness" > > is most certainly a goad also. According to texts, sandhyavandanam > > is completely ineffective unless it is performed at the trikala > > sandhyas 1008 times per day. Yet, have you ever heard the > > mathadhipathis say "If you happen to wake up late, skip it for the > > day since it would be ineffective anyways?". Never. But they tell > > you, you must wake up before sandhya-kala. There is a difference. > > Ineffectiveness has to be understood differently. > > > > Mantras are ineffective unless they are heard directly from a > guru. > > Mantras are ineffective unless they are prescribed from a guru > with > > mantra-shakti. Mantras are ineffective unless their purashcharana > is > > done. Yet, many here will have experiences where they got > wonderful > > results where this was not the case. Ineffectiveness has to be > > understood differently. > > > > If you think I am advocating improperly done pujas, you are > > mistaken. I am saying that "advaita-bhava" can (and should) be > > developed in puja also, while simultaneously sticking to all the > > details prescribed in the texts. As time goes on, and I understand > > the rules better, I perform them while trying to stick to them as > > best as I can. For example, even to the level of what mudras need > to > > be used while holding the upachara materials, and to which side & > > anga of the devata should dhupa / dipa / naivedya be offered. > > However, while time goes on, I perform the same puja (including > the > > loka pala pujas etc) with much better advaita-bhava. While > > performing the avarana puja, it has to be done with great shraddha > > etc, but once the avarana puja is done, and you are worshipping > sri-> > satyanarayana, it is him alone that should be in the mind. No > other > > thought should be there. Thus, the puja teaches us to > systematically > > move inward, and develop a one-pointed intellect. All samskaras > are, > > after all, a preparation for the serious path towards sannyasa > that > > we will undertake in some lifetime. > > > > > Do I dump the alphabet and the other basics I learnt whenever I > > graduate to the next level? > > > > Do you still use your fingers to determine the results of 2 + 3? > Do > > you spell out each word in your mind before you type it, or does > it > > just happen? You may not "dump it", but the way you use it has > > certainly changed, hasn't it? Once a door is opened, you can walk > > through it at any time. > > > > > Shankaracharyas are liberated souls and follow the nivritti > > maarga, > > so do all these rituals matter to them? If not why did Adi > Shankara > > lay down such a process? Because whether it's householders or > > sannyasins certain discipline is necessary where spiritual matters > > are concenrned. > > > > The rituals don't matter to them. Those that do them, do them for > > the good of mankind _as a result of their purva-karmas_. Or > rather, > > they do nothing, but their bodies continue along the path, > impelled > > by previous karma unless the current body drops off. I undestand > > your logic, there is much more here, and would require many long > > discussions of its own. Do some reading into the life of > > Chandrashekara Bharati, or Sri Vidyasankara. All is not as it > > appears. > > > > > Adi shankara himself had to under go experiences related to > > duality > > > in order to learn. He had to do parakaaya pravesham into a dead > > body > > > to learn about certain facts of life and another episode was > when > > he > > > was accosted and interrogated by the Chandala. > > > > This story is not universally accepted, particularly in the higher > > echelons of the parampara. Many learned scholars completely reject > > this episode. > > > > > He found Mother both as Mayaa and Satyam. > > > > That which is mAyA cannot be satyam. `yA mA sA mAyA'. That which > is > > not [satyam] is mAyA. > > > > > Advaita needs practical application and needs to be ingrained > into > > our > > > responses to every day situations. > > > > And is precisely why it needs to be taught very carefully from a > > guru as it can be twisted all over the place if not properly > > understood.> > > > > In fact the term "sannyasa " can be decoded as samyak+nyaasa!!> > > > nyAsA has two meanings, since there are two sides to every coin. > It > > means `to place' etc, but simultaneously, it also means `to > abandon' > > also. I'll let you ponder over it. > > > > ajit

[Guest guest]

| om gurave namah |Dear Rafal

To understand one like Caitanya, one has to progress step by step through the Advaita and then the Dwaita and then do the *impossible task* ot bringing these two together. To my knowledge in recent past only Ramakrishna was able to do this (although the lineage of the Ramakrishna Mission founded by Vivekananda is Advaita). Thakur even tuaght his own Guru (and proved to him) the validity of Dvaita. At this stage we are trying to understand advaita for Jyotish.

Best wishes and warm regards,Sanjay RathPersonal: WebPages ¡Ü Rath¡¯s Rhapsody SJC WebPages: Sri Jagannath Center ¡Ü SJCERC ¡Ü JIVAPublications: The Jyotish Digest ¡Ü Sagittarius Publications----

 

 

 

sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of Rafal GendarzFriday, May 26, 2006 8:38 PMsohamsa Subject: Re: Re: samba sada shiva & advaita

 

Dear Narasimha & Jyotisha's

 

Im not so familiar with details of Advaita/Vishishtadvaita paradigm. I saw that the concept of Sunya (like Sanjay Ji lecture of diseases / Sunya Samhita of Sri Achyuta, my Guruji attitude (last conversation) ) or Advaita concept prevail (i mean it is main trend) in SJC. There is also view that Sri Caitanya followers could accept that theory which is against the branch of Gaudiya (at least what Bhaktisiddhanta/Bh.Thakkura/Six Gosvamis(Sri Rupa & Sri Sanatana) preached). Sometimes I wish there could be some Jyotish explanation also for Dvaitans like me - like for example some note in "Creation" article about other also popular view of creation, or explanation that Jagganth has no feet/eyes (nirguna). I accept that other people can have various views but I think it would be nice & proper to give one small note about other concept.

 

For proper understanding I would like to ask some questions:

 

(1) Why the avidya and maya exists ?

 

I heard one answer that Brahmana has lila, but to be fact this must have some saguna attributes.[s.Rath:] Brahman is the advaita concept when existing independantly, but it is Brahma (not Brahman)

 

(2) If Jiva realizes Tattwa and get liberation and become One Atma=Brahman this cycle of getting into maya is cycle (Gita says one who is liberated dont come to material world again)

 

(3) If Jiva realizes the true nature being a Brahmana how the other Jivas can be still under realization (not realized). I know its from view of Vyavaharica but still the practice is under the Vyavaharica nature - like Worship / Getting Up / Washing Body etc.

 

(4) If Brahman is one why I must follow some process to go back to origin state? I dont have power to do this immediately so I dont have enough Sakti (power). If there is Brahman with Sakti and without there is Dwaita which is unacceptable. Ok...I can only dream that I have no power, or my state of non-power is imaginery, but I am still into this condition..and I dont want to suffer but I cannot do anything immediately to stop it.

 

I know there can be mistake in my questions pertaining to mixing the two levels : vyavaharica and reality but please anyone interested to comment on this.

 

Regards

Rafal Gendarz

 

 

 

 

-

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

sohamsa

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 6:00 AM

Re: samba sada shiva & advaita

 

Namaste friends,

 

One very quick remark.

 

According to Vasishtha, the so-called maya is Brahman too. If Brahman is an ocean, the maya is like a surface tension causing ripples in the ocean that start thinking of themselves as ripples and not as ocean. However, the surface tension and the surface ripples are ocean too. Maya and the objects etched out by maya are Brahman too.

 

True Adwaita is not about dismissing a lot of things as "mithya" or "illusion", but to see Brahman in those too.

 

BTW, sannyasa is not samyak + nyasa. Instead it is sat+nyasa. Sat means good. Good giving up.

 

 

 

May the light of Brahman shine within,

 

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

> Om Gurave Namah> > Dear Ajit,> > Namaste. > > > > He found Mother both as Mayaa and Satyam. > > > > That which is mAyA cannot be satyam. `yA mA sA mAyA'. That which > is > > not [satyam] is mAyA. > > Lakshmi: Mother is descibed as "Vidya avidya swaroopini" in Lalitha > sahasranaamam. Sri Devyupanishat also says the same thing. If we > say that Maya is not Brahman, and yet Maya exists (for a temporary > period), are we not contradicting the statement that Brahman is All? > > Maya can not exist on its own. It is like a reflection (albeit a > distorted one:--)) of Truth. Like, this body is maya, and is > perishable, but the soul it contains is Eternal and certainly not > maya. Is the soul less Brahman because it is enveloped in maaya?> > There are some like Sri Ramakrishna, who can cut away and correct > the distortion and for them the Maya is a replica of Truth and their > essence is the same. > > > > why it needs to be taught very carefully from a > ¨ª guru > > Lakshmi: I agree. Guru is a very important influence in shaping > one's philosophy of life. Learning by reading from shastras is > another. But in such abstract subjects, significant insight can be > gained by focused introspection (tapasya). I am sure that's why > Guruji wanted this discussion to materialize.> > I have read many books & articles on Kanchi Mahaswami and have had > the good fortune of meeting him too. Infact, if you happen to visit > Hyderabad, please take some time off to visit a Sri Rama temple near > Hi tech city (Madapur). It's a beautiful temple complex and is built > by my cousin brother at the express wish of Kanchi Mahaswamy.> > One thing I still do not understand. You said that the > Shankaracharyas undertake rituals to guide people and they > themselves do not need it. Is advaita meant only for sannyasis? > Why do grihastas invariably have take to pravritti maarga? Why > should there be a difference between Shankaracharya and the lay > person, unless one is differentiating on the basis of maaya and > giving undue weightage to it? If the Brahman who dwells in the > sannyasi and the samsaari is the same, then why does one need > different approaches? > > Infact, the very saying "aham brahmaasmi" itself talks of two > entities (I and Brahman) and their oneness. It's like an assertion, > a declaration. When there's none other than Brahman, to whom is it > being declared / asserted?> > Regards,> Lakshmi > > > > > > > > > > In fact the term "sannyasa " can be decoded as samyak+nyaasa!!> > > > nyAsA has two meanings, since there are two sides to every coin. > It > > means `to place' etc, but simultaneously, it also means `to > abandon' > > also. I'll let you ponder over it. > >> > > > sohamsa , "Ajit Krishnan" <ajit.krishnan@> > wrote:> >> > Bharat> I personally as well the scriptural texts do not allow the > > usage of the words "Path".> > > > Within the sampradaya, the terms `pravritti-marga' and `nivritti-> > marga' are used quite often to get the point across. > > > > Lakshmi> What could be the meaning of shad-loka paalas? > > > > Generally, 5 devatas do not seem to appear as the number of > devatas > > in any given avarana (of yantras etc). Usually, you have 6 (shat-> > kona), 6 (anga-puja), 8 (ashta-dala-padma), [[ other even numbered > > petals ]], 8 (dig-palakas), 8 (ayudhas). The numbers are generally > > even. When the pancha-loka-pala puja & the navagraha puja are done > > separately before the Satyanarayana puja proper, they have odd > > numbers (5 & 9 respectively). However, when they are placed in a > > single mandala, and understood to be the expansion of the same Sri-> > Satyanarayana, they themselves become avarana devatas of Sri > > Satyanarayana. The loka-palakas become 6 with the addition of > > Saraswati, and the Navagrahas become 8 since Rahu & Ketu (head & > > tail) are placed in the same dala. So, also, in similar styled > > pujas, you make come across durga-adi-ashtha-loka-palaka-s.> > > > > But if the religious rituals are > > > undertaken, they need to be performed with full faith and > > trikarana > > > shuddhi, and as prescribed in the shastras. > > > "Ineffectiveness" may not be used as a goad but as a reality. > > > > Of course, they need to be performed with faith and shuddhi while > > sticking to the texts as closely as possible. > But, "ineffectiveness" > > is most certainly a goad also. According to texts, sandhyavandanam > > is completely ineffective unless it is performed at the trikala > > sandhyas 1008 times per day. Yet, have you ever heard the > > mathadhipathis say "If you happen to wake up late, skip it for the > > day since it would be ineffective anyways?". Never. But they tell > > you, you must wake up before sandhya-kala. There is a difference. > > Ineffectiveness has to be understood differently. > > > > Mantras are ineffective unless they are heard directly from a > guru. > > Mantras are ineffective unless they are prescribed from a guru > with > > mantra-shakti. Mantras are ineffective unless their purashcharana > is > > done. Yet, many here will have experiences where they got > wonderful > > results where this was not the case. Ineffectiveness has to be > > understood differently. > > > > If you think I am advocating improperly done pujas, you are > > mistaken. I am saying that "advaita-bhava" can (and should) be > > developed in puja also, while simultaneously sticking to all the > > details prescribed in the texts. As time goes on, and I understand > > the rules better, I perform them while trying to stick to them as > > best as I can. For example, even to the level of what mudras need > to > > be used while holding the upachara materials, and to which side & > > anga of the devata should dhupa / dipa / naivedya be offered. > > However, while time goes on, I perform the same puja (including > the > > loka pala pujas etc) with much better advaita-bhava. While > > performing the avarana puja, it has to be done with great shraddha > > etc, but once the avarana puja is done, and you are worshipping > sri-> > satyanarayana, it is him alone that should be in the mind. No > other > > thought should be there. Thus, the puja teaches us to > systematically > > move inward, and develop a one-pointed intellect. All samskaras > are, > > after all, a preparation for the serious path towards sannyasa > that > > we will undertake in some lifetime. > > > > > Do I dump the alphabet and the other basics I learnt whenever I > > graduate to the next level? > > > > Do you still use your fingers to determine the results of 2 + 3? > Do > > you spell out each word in your mind before you type it, or does > it > > just happen? You may not "dump it", but the way you use it has > > certainly changed, hasn't it? Once a door is opened, you can walk > > through it at any time. > > > > > Shankaracharyas are liberated souls and follow the nivritti > > maarga, > > so do all these rituals matter to them? If not why did Adi > Shankara > > lay down such a process? Because whether it's householders or > > sannyasins certain discipline is necessary where spiritual matters > > are concenrned. > > > > The rituals don't matter to them. Those that do them, do them for > > the good of mankind _as a result of their purva-karmas_. Or > rather, > > they do nothing, but their bodies continue along the path, > impelled > > by previous karma unless the current body drops off. I undestand > > your logic, there is much more here, and would require many long > > discussions of its own. Do some reading into the life of > > Chandrashekara Bharati, or Sri Vidyasankara. All is not as it > > appears. > > > > > Adi shankara himself had to under go experiences related to > > duality > > > in order to learn. He had to do parakaaya pravesham into a dead > > body > > > to learn about certain facts of life and another episode was > when > > he > > > was accosted and interrogated by the Chandala. > > > > This story is not universally accepted, particularly in the higher > > echelons of the parampara. Many learned scholars completely reject > > this episode. > > > > > He found Mother both as Mayaa and Satyam. > > > > That which is mAyA cannot be satyam. `yA mA sA mAyA'. That which > is > > not [satyam] is mAyA. > > > > > Advaita needs practical application and needs to be ingrained > into > > our > > > responses to every day situations. > > > > And is precisely why it needs to be taught very carefully from a > > guru as it can be twisted all over the place if not properly > > understood.> > > > > In fact the term "sannyasa " can be decoded as samyak+nyaasa!!> > > > nyAsA has two meanings, since there are two sides to every coin. > It > > means `to place' etc, but simultaneously, it also means `to > abandon' > > also. I'll let you ponder over it. > > > > ajit

 

 

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vyam vyasadevaya namah

Dear Guruji,

 

Thank You for Your answer. I think its topic for longer discussion (maybe in Serbia/June). Anyway essence of my mail was request for braod view with tolerance for others view(presenting other views) mixed with personal/individual approach. I think this is only option for harmony in one community with different views.

 

Regards

Rafal Gendarz

 

 

-

Sanjay Rath

sohamsa

Saturday, May 27, 2006 7:39 PM

RE: Re: samba sada shiva & advaita

 

| om gurave namah |Dear Rafal

To understand one like Caitanya, one has to progress step by step through the Advaita and then the Dwaita and then do the *impossible task* ot bringing these two together. To my knowledge in recent past only Ramakrishna was able to do this (although the lineage of the Ramakrishna Mission founded by Vivekananda is Advaita). Thakur even tuaght his own Guru (and proved to him) the validity of Dvaita. At this stage we are trying to understand advaita for Jyotish.

Best wishes and warm regards,Sanjay RathPersonal: WebPages ¡Ü Rath¡¯s Rhapsody SJC WebPages: Sri Jagannath Center ¡Ü SJCERC ¡Ü JIVAPublications: The Jyotish Digest ¡Ü Sagittarius Publications----

 

 

 

sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of Rafal GendarzFriday, May 26, 2006 8:38 PMsohamsa Subject: Re: Re: samba sada shiva & advaita

 

Dear Narasimha & Jyotisha's

 

Im not so familiar with details of Advaita/Vishishtadvaita paradigm. I saw that the concept of Sunya (like Sanjay Ji lecture of diseases / Sunya Samhita of Sri Achyuta, my Guruji attitude (last conversation) ) or Advaita concept prevail (i mean it is main trend) in SJC. There is also view that Sri Caitanya followers could accept that theory which is against the branch of Gaudiya (at least what Bhaktisiddhanta/Bh.Thakkura/Six Gosvamis(Sri Rupa & Sri Sanatana) preached). Sometimes I wish there could be some Jyotish explanation also for Dvaitans like me - like for example some note in "Creation" article about other also popular view of creation, or explanation that Jagganth has no feet/eyes (nirguna). I accept that other people can have various views but I think it would be nice & proper to give one small note about other concept.

 

For proper understanding I would like to ask some questions:

 

(1) Why the avidya and maya exists ?

 

I heard one answer that Brahmana has lila, but to be fact this must have some saguna attributes.[s.Rath:] Brahman is the advaita concept when existing independantly, but it is Brahma (not Brahman)

 

(2) If Jiva realizes Tattwa and get liberation and become One Atma=Brahman this cycle of getting into maya is cycle (Gita says one who is liberated dont come to material world again)

 

(3) If Jiva realizes the true nature being a Brahmana how the other Jivas can be still under realization (not realized). I know its from view of Vyavaharica but still the practice is under the Vyavaharica nature - like Worship / Getting Up / Washing Body etc.

 

(4) If Brahman is one why I must follow some process to go back to origin state? I dont have power to do this immediately so I dont have enough Sakti (power). If there is Brahman with Sakti and without there is Dwaita which is unacceptable. Ok...I can only dream that I have no power, or my state of non-power is imaginery, but I am still into this condition..and I dont want to suffer but I cannot do anything immediately to stop it.

 

I know there can be mistake in my questions pertaining to mixing the two levels : vyavaharica and reality but please anyone interested to comment on this.

 

Regards

Rafal Gendarz

 

 

 

 

-

Narasimha P.V.R. Rao

sohamsa

Wednesday, May 17, 2006 6:00 AM

Re: samba sada shiva & advaita

 

Namaste friends,

 

One very quick remark.

 

According to Vasishtha, the so-called maya is Brahman too. If Brahman is an ocean, the maya is like a surface tension causing ripples in the ocean that start thinking of themselves as ripples and not as ocean. However, the surface tension and the surface ripples are ocean too. Maya and the objects etched out by maya are Brahman too.

 

True Adwaita is not about dismissing a lot of things as "mithya" or "illusion", but to see Brahman in those too.

 

BTW, sannyasa is not samyak + nyasa. Instead it is sat+nyasa. Sat means good. Good giving up.

 

 

 

May the light of Brahman shine within,

 

Narasimha

-------------------------------

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

-------------------------------

> Om Gurave Namah> > Dear Ajit,> > Namaste. > > > > He found Mother both as Mayaa and Satyam. > > > > That which is mAyA cannot be satyam. `yA mA sA mAyA'. That which > is > > not [satyam] is mAyA. > > Lakshmi: Mother is descibed as "Vidya avidya swaroopini" in Lalitha > sahasranaamam. Sri Devyupanishat also says the same thing. If we > say that Maya is not Brahman, and yet Maya exists (for a temporary > period), are we not contradicting the statement that Brahman is All? > > Maya can not exist on its own. It is like a reflection (albeit a > distorted one:--)) of Truth. Like, this body is maya, and is > perishable, but the soul it contains is Eternal and certainly not > maya. Is the soul less Brahman because it is enveloped in maaya?> > There are some like Sri Ramakrishna, who can cut away and correct > the distortion and for them the Maya is a replica of Truth and their > essence is the same. > > > > why it needs to be taught very carefully from a > ¨ª guru > > Lakshmi: I agree. Guru is a very important influence in shaping > one's philosophy of life. Learning by reading from shastras is > another. But in such abstract subjects, significant insight can be > gained by focused introspection (tapasya). I am sure that's why > Guruji wanted this discussion to materialize.> > I have read many books & articles on Kanchi Mahaswami and have had > the good fortune of meeting him too. Infact, if you happen to visit > Hyderabad, please take some time off to visit a Sri Rama temple near > Hi tech city (Madapur). It's a beautiful temple complex and is built > by my cousin brother at the express wish of Kanchi Mahaswamy.> > One thing I still do not understand. You said that the > Shankaracharyas undertake rituals to guide people and they > themselves do not need it. Is advaita meant only for sannyasis? > Why do grihastas invariably have take to pravritti maarga? Why > should there be a difference between Shankaracharya and the lay > person, unless one is differentiating on the basis of maaya and > giving undue weightage to it? If the Brahman who dwells in the > sannyasi and the samsaari is the same, then why does one need > different approaches? > > Infact, the very saying "aham brahmaasmi" itself talks of two > entities (I and Brahman) and their oneness. It's like an assertion, > a declaration. When there's none other than Brahman, to whom is it > being declared / asserted?> > Regards,> Lakshmi > > > > > > > > > > In fact the term "sannyasa " can be decoded as samyak+nyaasa!!> > > > nyAsA has two meanings, since there are two sides to every coin. > It > > means `to place' etc, but simultaneously, it also means `to > abandon' > > also. I'll let you ponder over it. > >> > > > sohamsa , "Ajit Krishnan" <ajit.krishnan@> > wrote:> >> > Bharat> I personally as well the scriptural texts do not allow the > > usage of the words "Path".> > > > Within the sampradaya, the terms `pravritti-marga' and `nivritti-> > marga' are used quite often to get the point across. > > > > Lakshmi> What could be the meaning of shad-loka paalas? > > > > Generally, 5 devatas do not seem to appear as the number of > devatas > > in any given avarana (of yantras etc). Usually, you have 6 (shat-> > kona), 6 (anga-puja), 8 (ashta-dala-padma), [[ other even numbered > > petals ]], 8 (dig-palakas), 8 (ayudhas). The numbers are generally > > even. When the pancha-loka-pala puja & the navagraha puja are done > > separately before the Satyanarayana puja proper, they have odd > > numbers (5 & 9 respectively). However, when they are placed in a > > single mandala, and understood to be the expansion of the same Sri-> > Satyanarayana, they themselves become avarana devatas of Sri > > Satyanarayana. The loka-palakas become 6 with the addition of > > Saraswati, and the Navagrahas become 8 since Rahu & Ketu (head & > > tail) are placed in the same dala. So, also, in similar styled > > pujas, you make come across durga-adi-ashtha-loka-palaka-s.> > > > > But if the religious rituals are > > > undertaken, they need to be performed with full faith and > > trikarana > > > shuddhi, and as prescribed in the shastras. > > > "Ineffectiveness" may not be used as a goad but as a reality. > > > > Of course, they need to be performed with faith and shuddhi while > > sticking to the texts as closely as possible. > But, "ineffectiveness" > > is most certainly a goad also. According to texts, sandhyavandanam > > is completely ineffective unless it is performed at the trikala > > sandhyas 1008 times per day. Yet, have you ever heard the > > mathadhipathis say "If you happen to wake up late, skip it for the > > day since it would be ineffective anyways?". Never. But they tell > > you, you must wake up before sandhya-kala. There is a difference. > > Ineffectiveness has to be understood differently. > > > > Mantras are ineffective unless they are heard directly from a > guru. > > Mantras are ineffective unless they are prescribed from a guru > with > > mantra-shakti. Mantras are ineffective unless their purashcharana > is > > done. Yet, many here will have experiences where they got > wonderful > > results where this was not the case. Ineffectiveness has to be > > understood differently. > > > > If you think I am advocating improperly done pujas, you are > > mistaken. I am saying that "advaita-bhava" can (and should) be > > developed in puja also, while simultaneously sticking to all the > > details prescribed in the texts. As time goes on, and I understand > > the rules better, I perform them while trying to stick to them as > > best as I can. For example, even to the level of what mudras need > to > > be used while holding the upachara materials, and to which side & > > anga of the devata should dhupa / dipa / naivedya be offered. > > However, while time goes on, I perform the same puja (including > the > > loka pala pujas etc) with much better advaita-bhava. While > > performing the avarana puja, it has to be done with great shraddha > > etc, but once the avarana puja is done, and you are worshipping > sri-> > satyanarayana, it is him alone that should be in the mind. No > other > > thought should be there. Thus, the puja teaches us to > systematically > > move inward, and develop a one-pointed intellect. All samskaras > are, > > after all, a preparation for the serious path towards sannyasa > that > > we will undertake in some lifetime. > > > > > Do I dump the alphabet and the other basics I learnt whenever I > > graduate to the next level? > > > > Do you still use your fingers to determine the results of 2 + 3? > Do > > you spell out each word in your mind before you type it, or does > it > > just happen? You may not "dump it", but the way you use it has > > certainly changed, hasn't it? Once a door is opened, you can walk > > through it at any time. > > > > > Shankaracharyas are liberated souls and follow the nivritti > > maarga, > > so do all these rituals matter to them? If not why did Adi > Shankara > > lay down such a process? Because whether it's householders or > > sannyasins certain discipline is necessary where spiritual matters > > are concenrned. > > > > The rituals don't matter to them. Those that do them, do them for > > the good of mankind _as a result of their purva-karmas_. Or > rather, > > they do nothing, but their bodies continue along the path, > impelled > > by previous karma unless the current body drops off. I undestand > > your logic, there is much more here, and would require many long > > discussions of its own. Do some reading into the life of > > Chandrashekara Bharati, or Sri Vidyasankara. All is not as it > > appears. > > > > > Adi shankara himself had to under go experiences related to > > duality > > > in order to learn. He had to do parakaaya pravesham into a dead > > body > > > to learn about certain facts of life and another episode was > when > > he > > > was accosted and interrogated by the Chandala. > > > > This story is not universally accepted, particularly in the higher > > echelons of the parampara. Many learned scholars completely reject > > this episode. > > > > > He found Mother both as Mayaa and Satyam. > > > > That which is mAyA cannot be satyam. `yA mA sA mAyA'. That which > is > > not [satyam] is mAyA. > > > > > Advaita needs practical application and needs to be ingrained > into > > our > > > responses to every day situations. > > > > And is precisely why it needs to be taught very carefully from a > > guru as it can be twisted all over the place if not properly > > understood.> > > > > In fact the term "sannyasa " can be decoded as samyak+nyaasa!!> > > > nyAsA has two meanings, since there are two sides to every coin. > It > > means `to place' etc, but simultaneously, it also means `to > abandon' > > also. I'll let you ponder over it. > > > > ajit

 

 

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[Guest guest]

Dear Rafal,

 

> I know there can be mistake in my questions pertaining to mixing

the two levels : vyavaharica and reality

 

Precisely. For example:

 

> (1) Why the avidya and maya exists ?

 

(1a) Why the [vyavaharika] avidya and [vyavaharika] maya

[vyavaharika] exists ?

(1b) Why the [vyavaharika] avidya and [vyavaharika] maya

[paramarthika] exists ?

 

If your question is 1a, then it becomes " if something is blue in

colour, why is it blue in colour " , and is not very interesting. If

it is 1b, then it becomes, " if something is blue in colour, why is

it green in colour " , and is obviously self-contradictory. Re-examine

your assumptions.

 

Similar questions you can ask might be `Why does Krishna exist?',

or `Why do I exist?'.

 

Your questions are good ones, but really require some fundamental

grounding in the method of [advaita] vedanta. Once this is in place,

you will most probably no longer go looking for answers, but spend

more time looking at your questions. The quest ceases being an

external one, and instead becomes an internal one.

 

 

ajit