Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Dear Sanjay, You wrote: ---------------------> Excellent points about 'Saamba' and the point is well accepted now. The question I was raising was not about the sanskrit part, which is definitely not disputed - Sarbani also has given a fine opinion to me the other day. The point I was hoping would bediscussed slightly more was the concept of Advaita. What is this philosophy and what is the relevance of 'saamba' to this? Hoping to hear some great thoughts from all of you. > The word Saamba is from Svayam-bhu or 'self created'. So it cannot be Sa+ambaa as then there is duality and this breaks the concept of advaita symbolised by svayambhu or saamba shiva. The name simply means that one source from whom everything is created and that he is created by none. This is a very uifying concept and is of the nature of akasa tattva whose job is to bind and unify. --------------------- Here are my 2 cents before I go to bed. I will try to write more in a few days. Today was a crazy day at work and I expect to spend 12 hours at work in the next 3 days also (plus, 2 hours of driving and 1.5-2 hours of pooja). Not much time for anything else. One can "experience" the perfect state of Advaita (non-duality) and experience Nirguna Brahman only when one reaches samadhi. That state occurs when and only when Kundalini (Shakti) reaches Sahasrara chakra and unites with Shiva. Unless Shiva and Shakti merge, there is no experience of Brahman. No wonder then that it is the union of Shiva and Shakti (as symbolized by Samba Shiva - Shiva united by Shakti) that represents the state of Advaita than just Shiva or just Shakti. I will try to write more later. May the light of Brahman shine within, Narasimha ------------------------------- Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org ------------------------------- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Om Gurave Namah Namaste Guruji, Narasimha garu, Ajit and Sourav Thanks to Guruji for initiating such a sublime thread. My humble and rather inadequate contribution follows. Ajit raised a very interesting point when he talked about panchayatana pooja. This reminds me of the panchaloka paala devata pooja in Sri Satyanarayana vratam. This is done before navagraha japam and dikpaala pooja. The order of pooja also looks very enlightening to me. The panchaloka paala devata pooja starts with Ganesha (Prithvi), and proceeds to Brahma (Vaayu), Vishnu (Jala), Rudra (Agni), Gauri (Akasha) pooja. This is infact the exact order of pancha koshas...Annamaya, Pranamaya, Manomaya, Vignana maya, Ananda maya koshas. I am also struck by the fact that Rudra is referred to here and not Shiva or Ishana. Clearly the intention here's to lift the sadhaka's mind to a higher level, before he can proceed with the pooja proper. Infact, during the pooja vidhi itself there are many procedures, like nyaasa etc, which enable the saadhaka to identify himself with mantra/vrata devata. I think this is, in essence, an advaitik ritual. Infact it is said that " na Rudro Rudramarchayet " ...meaning that one can not worship Rudra unless One is Rudra Himself, and i am sure it means much more than external trappings. All vedic worship is ultimately advaitik and aimed at merging dhyaata, dhyaanam and dhyeyam. Anyway, going by the above arrangement of pancha loka paala devatas, it can be seen that the highest state of Aananda maya kosha, is ruled by Gauri. Mother is also called Shiva gnaana pradaayini…just as a child does not know who its father is unless told by its Mother, so is the case with us. It is She who leads us to the Father. Infact, without Mother's expressive interface (word), Shiva, Who is Avyakta, like the inner meaning, can not deciphered at all. Kalidasa's immortal invocation " vaagarthaviva samprukthou… " in Raghuvamsham is evidence enough for this. In this shloka from Shiva purana ShaktiH shareeramadhidaivatha mantaraatmaa Gnaanam kriyaakaraNa maanasajaalamichhaa AishwaryamaayatanamaavaraaNaani cha tvam Kim kim na yadbhavasi baalashashaankamoule. Mother is described as Shiva's shakti, body, adhidevata, Conscience, gnaana, kriya, karana etc…etc…in short all that manifests. Infact Shiva Himself wants to be worshipped along with Mother…His favourite ornament is " soma " . His favourite day is " soma " …which is again nothing but sa+Uma. " Soma " meaning amrita/nectar is again the manifestation of highest state of yoga (togetherness) and of ananda. Infact, Brahma randhra, which falls under the zone of Ananda maya kosha is called a place where the Supreme Soul rejoices (etat nandanam). This is the abode of Sadaa Shiva (Hamso namah SadashivaH) …the destination of the Parama hamsas. The term " hamsa " itself is indicative of controlling/routing of breath through Ida and Pingala… indicating that " Saamba " is indeed Shivam not only for material purposes but also for mumukshus. She is the " saakshaan mokshakaree… sadaa shubha karee " . Where's the difference between Sadaa shiva and Sarva Mangala? I feel that advaita is not negation of dual body existence, it's the negation of duality of thought, purpose and action. God has bestowed on all of us two eyes, two ears, two legs etc…but their function is unitary. The drishti is the same, the sruti is the same as is the gati/gamyam. Though Surya and Chandra are two, their function of giving light or revealing Truth are the same, as demonstrated in the episode of Rahu. Though the naras are many their goal is the same… Naarayana. My apologies for the inordinately long mail, but when the topic is Mother, i am sure you understand that it's difficult for me to restrain myself. I must also have made tons of mistakes, so please correct me. Regards, Lakshmi sohamsa , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr wrote: > > Dear Sanjay, > > You wrote: > > --------------------- > > Excellent points about 'Saamba' and the point is well accepted now. The question I was raising was not about the sanskrit part, which is definitely not disputed - Sarbani also has given a fine opinion to me the other day. The point I was hoping would bediscussed slightly more was the concept of Advaita. What is this philosophy and what is the relevance of 'saamba' to this? Hoping to hear some great thoughts from all of you. > > > The word Saamba is from Svayam-bhu or 'self created'. So it cannot be Sa+ambaa as then there is duality and this breaks the concept of advaita symbolised by svayambhu or saamba shiva. The name simply means that one source from whom everything is created and that he is created by none. This is a very uifying concept and is of the nature of akasa tattva whose job is to bind and unify. > --------------------- > > Here are my 2 cents before I go to bed. I will try to write more in a few days. Today was a crazy day at work and I expect to spend 12 hours at work in the next 3 days also (plus, 2 hours of driving and 1.5-2 hours of pooja). Not much time for anything else. > > One can " experience " the perfect state of Advaita (non-duality) and experience Nirguna Brahman only when one reaches samadhi. That state occurs when and only when Kundalini (Shakti) reaches Sahasrara chakra and unites with Shiva. Unless Shiva and Shakti merge, there is no experience of Brahman. No wonder then that it is the union of Shiva and Shakti (as symbolized by Samba Shiva - Shiva united by Shakti) that represents the state of Advaita than just Shiva or just Shakti. > > I will try to write more later. > > May the light of Brahman shine within, > Narasimha > ------------------------------- > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > ------------------------------- > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 10, 2006 Report Share Posted May 10, 2006 Om Brihaspataye Namah Dear Lakshmi, WOW, thankyou for this writing. So many of the terms written here are not so familiar to me, but the thread is strong and I want to know more. I shall re-read it several times as it is pure gold. Gratefully yours, Rosemary - " B Lakshmi Ramesh " <b_lakshmi_ramesh <sohamsa > Wednesday, May 10, 2006 10:00 PM Re: Samba Shiva and Advaita Om Gurave Namah Namaste Guruji, Narasimha garu, Ajit and Sourav Thanks to Guruji for initiating such a sublime thread. My humble and rather inadequate contribution follows. Ajit raised a very interesting point when he talked about panchayatana pooja. This reminds me of the panchaloka paala devata pooja in Sri Satyanarayana vratam. This is done before navagraha japam and dikpaala pooja. The order of pooja also looks very enlightening to me. The panchaloka paala devata pooja starts with Ganesha (Prithvi), and proceeds to Brahma (Vaayu), Vishnu (Jala), Rudra (Agni), Gauri (Akasha) pooja. This is infact the exact order of pancha koshas...Annamaya, Pranamaya, Manomaya, Vignana maya, Ananda maya koshas. I am also struck by the fact that Rudra is referred to here and not Shiva or Ishana. Clearly the intention here's to lift the sadhaka's mind to a higher level, before he can proceed with the pooja proper. Infact, during the pooja vidhi itself there are many procedures, like nyaasa etc, which enable the saadhaka to identify himself with mantra/vrata devata. I think this is, in essence, an advaitik ritual. Infact it is said that " na Rudro Rudramarchayet " ...meaning that one can not worship Rudra unless One is Rudra Himself, and i am sure it means much more than external trappings. All vedic worship is ultimately advaitik and aimed at merging dhyaata, dhyaanam and dhyeyam. Anyway, going by the above arrangement of pancha loka paala devatas, it can be seen that the highest state of Aananda maya kosha, is ruled by Gauri. Mother is also called Shiva gnaana pradaayini.just as a child does not know who its father is unless told by its Mother, so is the case with us. It is She who leads us to the Father. Infact, without Mother's expressive interface (word), Shiva, Who is Avyakta, like the inner meaning, can not deciphered at all. Kalidasa's immortal invocation " vaagarthaviva samprukthou. " in Raghuvamsham is evidence enough for this. In this shloka from Shiva purana ShaktiH shareeramadhidaivatha mantaraatmaa Gnaanam kriyaakaraNa maanasajaalamichhaa AishwaryamaayatanamaavaraaNaani cha tvam Kim kim na yadbhavasi baalashashaankamoule. Mother is described as Shiva's shakti, body, adhidevata, Conscience, gnaana, kriya, karana etc.etc.in short all that manifests. Infact Shiva Himself wants to be worshipped along with Mother.His favourite ornament is " soma " . His favourite day is " soma " .which is again nothing but sa+Uma. " Soma " meaning amrita/nectar is again the manifestation of highest state of yoga (togetherness) and of ananda. Infact, Brahma randhra, which falls under the zone of Ananda maya kosha is called a place where the Supreme Soul rejoices (etat nandanam). This is the abode of Sadaa Shiva (Hamso namah SadashivaH) ..the destination of the Parama hamsas. The term " hamsa " itself is indicative of controlling/routing of breath through Ida and Pingala. indicating that " Saamba " is indeed Shivam not only for material purposes but also for mumukshus. She is the " saakshaan mokshakaree. sadaa shubha karee " . Where's the difference between Sadaa shiva and Sarva Mangala? I feel that advaita is not negation of dual body existence, it's the negation of duality of thought, purpose and action. God has bestowed on all of us two eyes, two ears, two legs etc.but their function is unitary. The drishti is the same, the sruti is the same as is the gati/gamyam. Though Surya and Chandra are two, their function of giving light or revealing Truth are the same, as demonstrated in the episode of Rahu. Though the naras are many their goal is the same. Naarayana. My apologies for the inordinately long mail, but when the topic is Mother, i am sure you understand that it's difficult for me to restrain myself. I must also have made tons of mistakes, so please correct me. Regards, Lakshmi sohamsa , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr wrote: > > Dear Sanjay, > > You wrote: > > --------------------- > > Excellent points about 'Saamba' and the point is well accepted now. The question I was raising was not about the sanskrit part, which is definitely not disputed - Sarbani also has given a fine opinion to me the other day. The point I was hoping would bediscussed slightly more was the concept of Advaita. What is this philosophy and what is the relevance of 'saamba' to this? Hoping to hear some great thoughts from all of you. > > > The word Saamba is from Svayam-bhu or 'self created'. So it cannot be Sa+ambaa as then there is duality and this breaks the concept of advaita symbolised by svayambhu or saamba shiva. The name simply means that one source from whom everything is created and that he is created by none. This is a very uifying concept and is of the nature of akasa tattva whose job is to bind and unify. > --------------------- > > Here are my 2 cents before I go to bed. I will try to write more in a few days. Today was a crazy day at work and I expect to spend 12 hours at work in the next 3 days also (plus, 2 hours of driving and 1.5-2 hours of pooja). Not much time for anything else. > > One can " experience " the perfect state of Advaita (non-duality) and experience Nirguna Brahman only when one reaches samadhi. That state occurs when and only when Kundalini (Shakti) reaches Sahasrara chakra and unites with Shiva. Unless Shiva and Shakti merge, there is no experience of Brahman. No wonder then that it is the union of Shiva and Shakti (as symbolized by Samba Shiva - Shiva united by Shakti) that represents the state of Advaita than just Shiva or just Shakti. > > I will try to write more later. > > May the light of Brahman shine within, > Narasimha > ------------------------------- > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > ------------------------------- > *tat savitur varenyam* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 Namaskaar Sri Sanjay and Sri NarasimhaConsider Lord Shiva as the dancer and Ma Shakti as the dance. They aren't separate. For those in duality, they appear separate. That is the maya. In Tantra, Lord Shiva is considered as Consciousness and Ma Shakti as the play of consciousness or what we call as nature. Since Consciousness is Self Effulgent, it is not seen in any light as it is the light in which everything is seen. Creation does not apply to it but to the uninitiated it is self-created. To the initiated, it is self-effulgent. Those who understand Advaita, understand Jeevan Mukta, as Sri Lakshmi pointed out. One need not throw away one's body to know oneSelf as Brahman. Thanks and RegardsBharat On 5/10/06, Narasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr wrote: Dear Sanjay, You wrote: ---------------------> Excellent points about 'Saamba' and the point is well accepted now. The question I was raising was not about the sanskrit part, which is definitely not disputed - Sarbani also has given a fine opinion to me the other day. The point I was hoping would bediscussed slightly more was the concept of Advaita. What is this philosophy and what is the relevance of 'saamba' to this? Hoping to hear some great thoughts from all of you. > The word Saamba is from Svayam-bhu or 'self created'. So it cannot be Sa+ambaa as then there is duality and this breaks the concept of advaita symbolised by svayambhu or saamba shiva. The name simply means that one source from whom everything is created and that he is created by none. This is a very uifying concept and is of the nature of akasa tattva whose job is to bind and unify. --------------------- Here are my 2 cents before I go to bed. I will try to write more in a few days. Today was a crazy day at work and I expect to spend 12 hours at work in the next 3 days also (plus, 2 hours of driving and 1.5-2 hours of pooja). Not much time for anything else. One can " experience " the perfect state of Advaita (non-duality) and experience Nirguna Brahman only when one reaches samadhi. That state occurs when and only when Kundalini (Shakti) reaches Sahasrara chakra and unites with Shiva. Unless Shiva and Shakti merge, there is no experience of Brahman. No wonder then that it is the union of Shiva and Shakti (as symbolized by Samba Shiva - Shiva united by Shakti) that represents the state of Advaita than just Shiva or just Shakti. I will try to write more later. May the light of Brahman shine within, Narasimha ------------------------------- Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org ------------------------------- *tat savitur varenyam* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 11, 2006 Report Share Posted May 11, 2006 | om gurave namah |Dear Lakshmi I have some questions that need a slight clarity ...sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of B Lakshmi RameshWednesday, May 10, 2006 3:31 PMsohamsa Subject: Re: Samba Shiva and AdvaitaOm Gurave NamahNamaste Guruji, Narasimha garu, Ajit and SouravThanks to Guruji for initiating such a sublime thread.My humble and rather inadequate contribution follows.Ajit raised a very interesting point when he talked about panchayatana pooja. This reminds me of the panchaloka paala devata pooja in Sri Satyanarayana vratam. This is done before navagraha japam and dikpaala pooja. The order of pooja also looks very enlightening to me. The panchaloka paala devata pooja starts with Ganesha (Prithvi), and proceeds to Brahma (Vaayu), Vishnu (Jala), Rudra (Agni), Gauri (Akasha) pooja. This is infact the exact order of pancha koshas...Annamaya, Pranamaya, Manomaya, Vignana maya, Ananda maya koshas. I am also struck by the fact that Rudra is referred to here and not Shiva or Ishana.[s.Rath:] Very very interesting point. I think you need to examine the tatva again - Ganesha is ok, Brahma is agni, Vishnu is akasa, Rudra is vaayu and Gauri is jala as per normal tatva devata. Is the order changing for tatva devata due to shiva replacement by Rudra? I don;t know how this can happen and need to understand why you changed it. Clearly the intention here's to lift the sadhaka's mind to a higher level, before he can proceed with the pooja proper. Infact, during the pooja vidhi itself there are many procedures, like nyaasa etc, which enable the saadhaka to identify himself with mantra/vrata devata. I think this is, in essence, an advaitik ritual. Infact it is said that "na Rudro Rudramarchayet"...meaning that one can not worship Rudra unless One is Rudra Himself, and i am sure it means much more than external trappings. All vedic worship is ultimately advaitik and aimed at merging dhyaata, dhyaanam and dhyeyam. [s.Rath:] That is one view and it is very fine. Yes of course you are clearly talking about the Sivoham concept here. Anyway, going by the above arrangement of pancha loka paala devatas, it can be seen that the highest state of Aananda maya kosha, is ruled by Gauri. Mother is also called Shiva gnaana pradaayini¡Äjust as a child does not know who its father is unless told by its Mother, so is the case with us. It is She who leads us to the Father. Infact, without Mother's expressive interface (word), Shiva, Who is Avyakta, like the inner meaning, can not deciphered at all. Kalidasa's immortal invocation "vaagarthaviva samprukthou¡Ä" in Raghuvamsham is evidence enough for this. [s.Rath:] That is fine and fully agreed. So you are suggesting that from one viewpoint of entering the sanyaasa path (say as example), the Devi is Akasa Tatva and exchanges the tatva with Vishnu who is jala. Again there is another exchange between Brahma (instead of Surya as creator) and Rudra (instead of Shiva as destroyer ) thereby exchanging Agni and Vayu tatva. Can you explain why this dual exchange of tatva as well as the tatva devata is being mentioned at this level instead of the normal pancha tatva devata?In this shloka from Shiva puranaShaktiH shareeramadhidaivatha mantaraatmaaGnaanam kriyaakaraNa maanasajaalamichhaaAishwaryamaayatanamaavaraaNaani cha tvamKim kim na yadbhavasi baalashashaankamoule.Mother is described as Shiva's shakti, body, adhidevata, Conscience, gnaana, kriya, karana etc¡Äetc¡Äin short all that manifests.Infact Shiva Himself wants to be worshipped along with Mother¡ÄHis favourite ornament is "soma". His favourite day is "soma"¡Äwhich is again nothing but sa+Uma. "Soma" meaning amrita/nectar is again the manifestation of highest state of yoga (togetherness) and of ananda. Infact, Brahma randhra, which falls under the zone of Ananda maya kosha is called a place where the Supreme Soul rejoices (etat nandanam). This is the abode of Sadaa Shiva (Hamso namah SadashivaH)¡Äthe destination of the Parama hamsas. The term "hamsa" itself is indicative of controlling/routing of breath through Ida and Pingala¡Äindicating that "Saamba" is indeed Shivam not only for material purposes but also for mumukshus. She is the "saakshaan mokshakaree¡Äsadaa shubha karee". Where's the difference between Sadaa shiva and Sarva Mangala? [s.Rath:] That is so right Lakshmi, but then so long as Shiva wants to worship with Mother, Shiva and Mother are separate and then there is duality. So how can we call this *pure advaita*? Yes the mantra *hamso namah sadashivaH* confirms Jaimini's teaching that Jupiter indicates Saambashiva. Yet Hamsa is not the breath through ida and pingala although it seems like the breath as it is through the breath control that we experience hamsa, it is not the same as the breath which is dual. I agree on the point that soma is sa+Uma but then, all the *plus* signs only show duality. Where is the pure advaita?I feel that advaita is not negation of dual body existence, it's the negation of duality of thought, purpose and action. God has bestowed on all of us two eyes, two ears, two legs etc¡Äbut their function is unitary. The drishti is the same, the sruti is the same as is the gati/gamyam. Though Surya and Chandra are two, their function of giving light or revealing Truth are the same, as demonstrated in the episode of Rahu. Though the naras are many their goal is the same¡ÄNaarayana.[s.Rath:] Thats right Lakshmi, we have two eyes, two hands, two nostrils, two sets of every tooth in two jaws and walk on two feet that are the ends of two legs and work with two hands and two palms with two sets of five fingers each, yet we have ONE BRAIN, although with two lobes but with only ONE Pineal gland...only one. I remember you talking something very nice about that and the chakras last time. My apologies for the inordinately long mail, but when the topic is Mother, i am sure you understand that it's difficult for me to restrain myself. I must also have made tons of mistakes, so please correct me. [s.Rath:] No no don't restrain...let the river flow its course Lakshmi. How else can we find the sea? Flow on dear sister....waiting for a response and more great thoughts. Regards,LakshmiBest wishes and warm regards,Sanjay RathPersonal: WebPages ¡ü Rath¡Çs Rhapsody SJC WebPages: Sri Jagannath Center ¡ü SJCERC ¡ü JIVAPublications: The Jyotish Digest ¡ü Sagittarius Publications---- sohamsa , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr wrote:>> Dear Sanjay,> > You wrote:> > ---------------------> > Excellent points about 'Saamba' and the point is well accepted now. The question I was raising was not about the sanskrit part, which is definitely not disputed - Sarbani also has given a fine opinion to me the other day. The point I was hoping would bediscussed slightly more was the concept of Advaita. What is this philosophy and what is the relevance of 'saamba' to this? Hoping to hear some great thoughts from all of you.> > > The word Saamba is from Svayam-bhu or 'self created'. So it cannot be Sa+ambaa as then there is duality and this breaks the concept of advaita symbolised by svayambhu or saamba shiva. The name simply means that one source from whom everything is created and that he is created by none. This is a very uifying concept and is of the nature of akasa tattva whose job is to bind and unify.> ---------------------> > Here are my 2 cents before I go to bed. I will try to write more in a few days. Today was a crazy day at work and I expect to spend 12 hours at work in the next 3 days also (plus, 2 hours of driving and 1.5-2 hours of pooja). Not much time for anything else.> > One can "experience" the perfect state of Advaita (non-duality) and experience Nirguna Brahman only when one reaches samadhi. That state occurs when and only when Kundalini (Shakti) reaches Sahasrara chakra and unites with Shiva. Unless Shiva and Shakti merge, there is no experience of Brahman. No wonder then that it is the union of Shiva and Shakti (as symbolized by Samba Shiva - Shiva united by Shakti) that represents the state of Advaita than just Shiva or just Shakti.> > I will try to write more later.> > May the light of Brahman shine within, > Narasimha> -------------------------------> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org> -------------------------------> avast! Antivirus: Outbound message clean. Virus Database (VPS): 0619-2, 05/11/2006Tested on: 5/11/2006 10:35:07 PMavast! - copyright © 1988-2006 ALWIL Software. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted May 12, 2006 Report Share Posted May 12, 2006 > Dear Lakshmi > Ø I have some questions that need a slight clarity ... Lakshmi: Guruji, though I know that I am thoroughly incapable of clarifications, I will try to the best of my ability. I am not afraid of my endless erring because you are always there to correct me. > > [s.Rath:] Very very interesting point. I think you need to examine the tatva > again - Ganesha is ok, Brahma is agni, Vishnu is akasa, Rudra is vaayu and > Gauri is jala as per normal tatva devata. Is the order changing for tatva > devata due to shiva replacement by Rudra? I don;t know how this can happen > and need to understand why you changed it. > Lakshmi: Brahma is not agni, He is Vaayu. My premise is based on the following reasons: 1) Vide Parasara, the deity of Saturn (Vayu tattva) is Brahma, and only because Brahma is barred from being worshipped, one worships Narayana. Saturn is the karma kaaraka and is responsible for re-birth, along with Rahu. Both of them rule Aquarius, which is the moolatrikona of Saturn. 2) It is only during koorma avatara that so many births happened, both good and bad :--)) Koorma avatara is mapped to Saturn. Varaha avatara (Rahu) indicates rebirth. 3) The kaama trikona is ruled by Vayu tattva. " Ka " is the brahmaakshara and indicates the begining. 4) You have mentioned in your lecture on Panchanga that nakshatras are indicative of vayu tattva, and that vayu tattva indicates segregation, differentiation etc. And, it is birth which separates us / or breeds a sense of separation from the Cosmic soul. 5) Vaayu is indeed one of the Rudras and is responsible for kaama pralaya. According to Srimad Bhagavatham, Rudra is said to be born out of Brahma's anger (Mars) and is said to be fiery. In Lalithopakhyanam also Rudra is said to be born out of the 3rd eye (agni) of Lalitha Parameshwari and is supposed to be gnana swaroopa. The name itself with two agnibeejas suggests a fiery god. Rudra also means the Red One and suggests one who destroys sorrow and evil. Agni, with its power to burn and simultaneously cast Light, indicates Rudra, who destroys in order to redeem. It is said that " apo vai VishnuH " . Narayana is rasa swaroopa. Infact while doing achamanam, the names of Vishnu are recited, because He is the ultimate cleanser whether it is of the earth or of our body. Lalithopakhyanam talks about the sameness of Mother and Vishnu, by saying " saa Uma saH Vishnu " . As mentioned in your article on Tolerance, UMA is pranava vaachakam starting with Vishnu beeja " U " . It is true that Vishnu represents vishwa vyaapaka chaitanyam, but then so does Mother. " Yaa devi sarva bhooteshu shakti roopena samssthithaa.. " . Then why is it indeed that I equated Vishnu to Jala tattva and Gauri to akasha tattva? For me, the answer lies in Vishnu sahasra naamam…. " aanandam parabrahmeti yoniH " …meaning the Eternal Bliss is the Source ….thus linking akasha tattva /anandamaya kosha to the Mother tattva. Vishnu, ofcourse, Himself also gave birth to Brahma, and is thus considered as Mother too (Vishwayoni):--)), so on the whole, it is the female aspect that rules akasha tattva. Gauri as the " white " one indicates amalgamation/dissolution of disparate colours and influences. She's the natural neutralizer. She's the colour of " Hamsa " . > [s.Rath:] That is so right Lakshmi, but then so long as Shiva wants to > worship with Mother, Shiva and Mother are separate and then there is > duality. So how can we call this *pure advaita*? Yes the mantra *hamso namah > sadashivaH* confirms Jaimini's teaching that Jupiter indicates Saambashiva. > Yet Hamsa is not the breath through ida and pingala although it seems like > the breath as it is through the breath control that we experience hamsa, it > is not the same as the breath which is dual. I agree on the point that soma > is sa+Uma but then, all the *plus* signs only show duality. Where is the > pure advaita? Lakshmi: Guruji, from my humble prespective, Shiva is the 0, the perfect shoonya (Infinity) with all its attendant vedantic value and Mother represents numbers from 0 onwards (Shodasi). 0 is the beeja and is contained in all numbers. If 0+1=1 is it advaita or dvaita? What is reflected is only one and the other is implicit in it. Whatever mathematical manipulations are done with 0, only one value remains, either the 0 or the other value. So, it is advaitic all the way:--)) > [s.Rath:] No no don't restrain...let the river flow its course Lakshmi. How > else can we find the sea? Flow on dear sister....waiting for a response and > more great thoughts. Lakshmi: Dear Sanjayji, thank you for your immense affection and endless patience. Saturn being my BK and also the 3rd lord, no wonder, has twice blessed me by making you both my Guru and my brother. Born in a nakshatra ruled by water, can I help flowing, tumbling, gushing along? :--)) Regards, Lakshmi sohamsa , " Sanjay Rath " <guruji wrote: > > > > > | om gurave namah | > Dear Lakshmi > > I have some questions that need a slight clarity ... > > sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of > B Lakshmi Ramesh > Wednesday, May 10, 2006 3:31 PM > sohamsa > Re: Samba Shiva and Advaita > > Om Gurave Namah > > Namaste Guruji, Narasimha garu, Ajit and Sourav > > Thanks to Guruji for initiating such a sublime thread. > > My humble and rather inadequate contribution follows. > > Ajit raised a very interesting point when he talked about > panchayatana pooja. This reminds me of the panchaloka paala devata > pooja in Sri Satyanarayana vratam. This is done before navagraha > japam and dikpaala pooja. The order of pooja also looks very > enlightening to me. The panchaloka paala devata pooja starts with > Ganesha (Prithvi), and proceeds to Brahma (Vaayu), Vishnu (Jala), > Rudra (Agni), Gauri (Akasha) pooja. This is infact the exact order > of pancha koshas...Annamaya, Pranamaya, Manomaya, Vignana maya, > Ananda maya koshas. I am also struck by the fact that Rudra is > referred to here and not Shiva or Ishana. > [s.Rath:] Very very interesting point. I think you need to examine the tatva > again - Ganesha is ok, Brahma is agni, Vishnu is akasa, Rudra is vaayu and > Gauri is jala as per normal tatva devata. Is the order changing for tatva > devata due to shiva replacement by Rudra? I don;t know how this can happen > and need to understand why you changed it. > > Clearly the intention here's to lift the sadhaka's mind to a higher > level, before he can proceed with the pooja proper. Infact, during > the pooja vidhi itself there are many procedures, like nyaasa etc, > which enable the saadhaka to identify himself with mantra/vrata > devata. I think this is, in essence, an advaitik ritual. Infact it > is said that " na Rudro Rudramarchayet " ...meaning that one can not > worship Rudra unless One is Rudra Himself, and i am sure it means > much more than external trappings. All vedic worship is ultimately > advaitik and aimed at merging dhyaata, dhyaanam and dhyeyam. > [s.Rath:] That is one view and it is very fine. Yes of course you are > clearly talking about the Sivoham concept here. > > Anyway, going by the above arrangement of pancha loka paala devatas, > it can be seen that the highest state of Aananda maya kosha, is > ruled by Gauri. Mother is also called Shiva gnaana pradaayini¡Äjust > as a child does not know who its father is unless told by its > Mother, so is the case with us. It is She who leads us to the > Father. Infact, without Mother's expressive interface (word), Shiva, > Who is Avyakta, like the inner meaning, can not deciphered at all. > Kalidasa's immortal invocation " vaagarthaviva samprukthou¡Ä " in > Raghuvamsham is evidence enough for this. > [s.Rath:] That is fine and fully agreed. So you are suggesting that from one > viewpoint of entering the sanyaasa path (say as example), the Devi is Akasa > Tatva and exchanges the tatva with Vishnu who is jala. Again there is > another exchange between Brahma (instead of Surya as creator) and Rudra > (instead of Shiva as destroyer ) thereby exchanging Agni and Vayu tatva. Can > you explain why this dual exchange of tatva as well as the tatva devata is > being mentioned at this level instead of the normal pancha tatva devata? > > In this shloka from Shiva purana > > ShaktiH shareeramadhidaivatha mantaraatmaa > Gnaanam kriyaakaraNa maanasajaalamichhaa > AishwaryamaayatanamaavaraaNaani cha tvam > Kim kim na yadbhavasi baalashashaankamoule. > > Mother is described as Shiva's shakti, body, adhidevata, Conscience, > gnaana, kriya, karana etc¡Äetc¡Äin short all that manifests. > > Infact Shiva Himself wants to be worshipped along with Mother¡ÄHis > favourite ornament is " soma " . His favourite day is " soma " ¡Äwhich is > again nothing but sa+Uma. " Soma " meaning amrita/nectar is again the > manifestation of highest state of yoga (togetherness) and of ananda. > Infact, Brahma randhra, which falls under the zone of Ananda maya > kosha is called a place where the Supreme Soul rejoices (etat > nandanam). This is the abode of Sadaa Shiva (Hamso namah SadashivaH) > ¡Äthe destination of the Parama hamsas. The term " hamsa " itself is > indicative of controlling/routing of breath through Ida and Pingala¡Ä > indicating that " Saamba " is indeed Shivam not only for material > purposes but also for mumukshus. She is the " saakshaan mokshakaree¡Ä > sadaa shubha karee " . Where's the difference between Sadaa shiva and > Sarva Mangala? > [s.Rath:] That is so right Lakshmi, but then so long as Shiva wants to > worship with Mother, Shiva and Mother are separate and then there is > duality. So how can we call this *pure advaita*? Yes the mantra *hamso namah > sadashivaH* confirms Jaimini's teaching that Jupiter indicates Saambashiva. > Yet Hamsa is not the breath through ida and pingala although it seems like > the breath as it is through the breath control that we experience hamsa, it > is not the same as the breath which is dual. I agree on the point that soma > is sa+Uma but then, all the *plus* signs only show duality. Where is the > pure advaita? > > I feel that advaita is not negation of dual body existence, it's the > negation of duality of thought, purpose and action. God has bestowed > on all of us two eyes, two ears, two legs etc¡Äbut their function is > unitary. The drishti is the same, the sruti is the same as is the > gati/gamyam. Though Surya and Chandra are two, their function of > giving light or revealing Truth are the same, as demonstrated in the > episode of Rahu. Though the naras are many their goal is the same¡Ä > Naarayana. > [s.Rath:] Thats right Lakshmi, we have two eyes, two hands, two nostrils, > two sets of every tooth in two jaws and walk on two feet that are the ends > of two legs and work with two hands and two palms with two sets of five > fingers each, yet we have ONE BRAIN, although with two lobes but with only > ONE Pineal gland...only one. I remember you talking something very nice > about that and the chakras last time. > > My apologies for the inordinately long mail, but when the topic is > Mother, i am sure you understand that it's difficult for me to > restrain myself. I must also have made tons of mistakes, so please > correct me. > [s.Rath:] No no don't restrain...let the river flow its course Lakshmi. How > else can we find the sea? Flow on dear sister....waiting for a response and > more great thoughts. > > Regards, > Lakshmi > > Best wishes and warm regards, > Sanjay Rath > > Personal: <http://srath.com/blog/> WebPages ¡ü <http://srath.com/blog/> > Rath¡Çs Rhapsody > SJC WebPages: <http://.org/> Sri Jagannath Center ¡ü > <http://sjcerc.com/> SJCERC ¡ü <http://jiva.us/> JIVA > Publications: <http://thejyotishdigest.com/> The Jyotish Digest ¡ü > <http://sagittariuspublications.com/> Sagittarius Publications > - --- > > > > > sohamsa , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> > wrote: > > > > Dear Sanjay, > > > > You wrote: > > > > --------------------- > > > Excellent points about 'Saamba' and the point is well accepted > now. The question I was raising was not about the sanskrit part, > which is definitely not disputed - Sarbani also has given a fine > opinion to me the other day. The point I was hoping would > bediscussed slightly more was the concept of Advaita. What is this > philosophy and what is the relevance of 'saamba' to this? Hoping to > hear some great thoughts from all of you. > > > > > The word Saamba is from Svayam-bhu or 'self created'. So it > cannot be Sa+ambaa as then there is duality and this breaks the > concept of advaita symbolised by svayambhu or saamba shiva. The name > simply means that one source from whom everything is created and > that he is created by none. This is a very uifying concept and is of > the nature of akasa tattva whose job is to bind and unify. > > --------------------- > > > > Here are my 2 cents before I go to bed. I will try to write more > in a few days. Today was a crazy day at work and I expect to spend > 12 hours at work in the next 3 days also (plus, 2 hours of driving > and 1.5-2 hours of pooja). Not much time for anything else. > > > > One can " experience " the perfect state of Advaita (non-duality) > and experience Nirguna Brahman only when one reaches samadhi. That > state occurs when and only when Kundalini (Shakti) reaches Sahasrara > chakra and unites with Shiva. Unless Shiva and Shakti merge, there > is no experience of Brahman. No wonder then that it is the union of > Shiva and Shakti (as symbolized by Samba Shiva - Shiva united by > Shakti) that represents the state of Advaita than just Shiva or just > Shakti. > > > > I will try to write more later. > > > > May the light of Brahman shine within, > > Narasimha > > ------------------------------- > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > ------------------------------- > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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