Guest guest Posted November 23, 2009 Report Share Posted November 23, 2009 Shri Suni Bhattacharjya ji, Jai Shri Ram! <The Kaushitaki Brahmana (19.2) clearly states that the Winter Solstice was on the Magha New-Moon> As I am unable to lay my hands on Kaushitaki Brahman right now, please quote the actual mantra with its translation, though that is what the Vedanga Jyotisha also has said in the sixth mantra, that the month of magha, Uttarayana and a new five year yuga start when they conjoin Dhanishtha star. <The seasonal month " Tapas " obviously started from that day and the Mahashivaratri also fell on the Magha NewMoon day.> There can never be any link with New Moon day which is the start of Winter Solstice and Mahashivaratri! New Moon coinciding with winter solstice is actually the start of Magha Shukla Paksha, whereas Maha Shivaratri is to be celebrated after about twenty nine days of that New Moon which coincides with the Utttarayana! As such, it is impossible that Mahashivaratri festival and Magha Shukla Pratipat will coincide! You are therefore, either quoting a wrong mantra deliberately or there is some problem with your memory here also! <The Month of Magha is related to the Magha Nakshatra.  For example, the Purnimanta Magha month ends in the Purnima on the Magha Nakshatra.> This type of a definition of lunar months is a much later development! Lunar months were named after solar months to start with, and that was happening in eleventh century India also as per Alberuni's India. If we go on following such fallacious theories, a time will come when the lunar Magha will start in Summer instead of Winter and Magha-snana will thus have to be held in summer instead of winter! <Of course the people, like me, who follow the Sidereal calendar can observe the Mahashivaratri in the fullmoon day of the sidereal month of Magha.> Anybody can celebrate any festival on any day, but that does not mean that he/she is doing it as per the shastras! And the Gita is very clear that anybody going against shastras will have neither any happiness in this world nor in paraloka! < He has not told us uptill now where he found the mention of the " Makara Rekha " in the Ancient Indian shastras.> Not only Makar rashis but all the rashis have been discussed in quite a few Puranas like the Bhagavata, the Vishnupurana, the Vishnudharmotarapura etc. They are all much later additions/alterations in those Puranas and follow invariably the definition of the Surya Sidhanta, which is so called Sayana Rashichakra. It appears you have yet to go through BVB6, Rashi5 and 1999b.docs etc., leave alone the original puranas and shastras! Regarding Rashis in the Vedanga Jyotisha, anybody who has read that work fully will have to come to that very conclusion that the Rashi mantra in the Yajusha Jyotisham is nothing but spurious since it is entirely out of context and yields completely wrong results. It has been repeated by an innumerable number of scholars that Mesha etc. rashis were non-existent in India till the time of the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha, since even in a compilation of five sidhantas as late as fifth century AD, we do not find any mention of Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis in any other work except the Surya Sidhanta! <As regards the Precession versus Uttarayana Jyotirved should read the ancient Indian texts to see the Equinoxes and Solstices occurring in different Nakshatras at different times.> Equinoxes and Solstices were falling in different nakshatras in different periods, and this is clear from the Vedic texts! But those very Equinoxes and Solstices were inseparably combined with so called Sayana Rashis as per the Siddhantas and the Puranas! Thus the real nakshatras had absolutely nothing to do with either Pauranic or siddhantic Rashis since nirayana rashis are non-existent not only in the shastras but even scientifically. Jai Shri Ram! A K Kaul , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > Dear friends. > > The Kaushitaki Brahmana (19.2) clearly states that the Winter Solstice was on the Magha New-Moon. The seasonal month " Tapas " obviously started from that day and the Mahashivaratri also fell on the Magha NewMoon day. So the people like jyotirved and Darshaney, who advocate celebration of festivals according to the Seasonal calendar has to observe the Mahashivaratri on the seasonal month of Tapas. Jyotirved is foolishly thinking the month of Magha to be a seasonal month. The argument is clear and Simple. The Month of Magha is related to the Magha Nakshatra. For example, the Purnimanta Magha month ends in the Purnima on the Magha Nakshatra. > > Of course the people, like me, who follow the Sidereal calendar can observe the Mahashivaratri in the fullmoon day of the sidereal month of Magha. > > Jyotirved is confused and may be his memory is also playing tricks with him. My memory did not fail me. It fails every time in Jyotirved only. He has not told us uptill now where he found the mention of the " Makara Rekha " in the Ancient Indian shastras. I assure Jyotirved that I shall not forget his this bluff. His convenient acceptance of some editor's personal remark that the Rashi verse in the Vedanga Jyotisha could be interpolated as the Vedavakya, speaks of his lost balance of mind. Some Tom, Dinesh (Dick) and Hatim (Harry) asserts something and that becomes the GospelTtruth for Jyotirved and the poor members of these fora receive mails from such unscrupulous people. As regards the Precession versus Uttarayana Jyotirved should read the ancient Indian texts to see the Equinoxes and Solstices occurring in different Nakshatras at different times. > > Regards > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > --- On Sun, 11/22/09, jyotirved <jyotirved wrote: > > jyotirved <jyotirved > [VRI] Re: The Views of Patrizia Norelli-Bachelet > > Cc: hinducalendar , vedic_research_institute , " 'subash razdan' " > <subashrazdan > Sunday, November 22, 2009, 12:53 AM > > > > > > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Sunil Bhattacharjyaji, > > Jai Shri Ram! > > < In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time > the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of > the seasonal month of Tapas> > > You are again requested to please give the exact references, > quoting the exact relevant mantras with their translation. You have already > been requested several times for this information, but you are dodging the > question again and again. Could it be that your memory is not serving you > properly here also, just as it did not serve you in case of INSA edition of the > VJ regarding the rashi mantra, that it had termed as noting but spurious or > your confusing Chaukhamba edition of Yogavasishtha as Gita Press edition! > >  > > <Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions proposed > that in 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic.> > > As per Shiva Mahapurana and Linga Purana etc., Maha > Shivaratri is to be celebrated on nisheetha vyapini chaturdashi of Magha (Gauna > Phallguna) Krishna paksha. Magha Shukla Paksha starts with the first New Moon > after Uttarayana, and that is on January 16, 2010. Magha  (Gauna Phalguna) Krishna > Paksha starts on January 31, 2010. Accordingly, nisheetha vyapini chaturdashi > is on 12th of February, 2010, which corresponds to 23rd of Tapasya, and not > 12th of Tapasya, as erroneously (some memory problem again?!) pointed out by > you! So the Tithi_patrak of Shri Darshaney Lokesh  showing Mahashivaratri on > February 12, 2010 is quite correct! > >  > > Perhaps it may be news to you that in 2010, even > Lahiri-walas (including you!) will celebrate Mahashivaratri    on February 12 > which is 23rd of Tapasya! Why don't you muster some courage to castigate your > fellow Lahiriwalas and admonish them from celebrating Mahasivaratri after two > months of Utarayana, i.e. Winter Solstice Day, when it should be celebrated > according to you. > > Regarding precession vis-a-vis, Uttarayana, I suggest you > read some books on astronomy and then only enter into discussion on such topics > as otherwise it is just a wastage of time. > > Jai Shri Ram! > > A K Kaul > > , Sunil Bhattacharjya > <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > >  > > > Shri Harimallaji, > > > > > > 1) > > > Uttarayana means the period of six month of the > northern course of the Sun. The Makar Sankranti is observed in Uttarayana > even now though the start of the Uttarayana is before the Makar sankranti. > During the period of Vedanga Jyotisha the Uttarayana started in the first haif > of the Dhanistha Nakshatra ie. it occurred in the end of the Makar Rashi. Thus > at that time the Makar Sankramana occurred before the start of the > Uttarayana. Once explained a school boy will understand this and I hope this > will not be difficult for you to understand. > > > 2) > > > We don't have to shift anything. We have only to > recognise what is what. Now the Uttarayana starts when the Sun is in the Dhanu > Rashi, ie. before the Makar Sankranti. In Varahamihira' s time the Uttarayana > started in the beginning of the Makar Rashi. Ask any astronomer and he will > confirm this. Varahamihira did not have to change anything except changing the > mindset of the (intellectually) blind people. > > > 3) > > > In the Brahmana of the Veda we find that at one time > the Mahashivaratri fell on the start of the Uttarayana, ie. on the first day of > the seasonal month of Tapas (and the astronomers will tell you that this time > period was in the third millennium BCE). These days it does not fall on the day > of the start of Uttarayana. Ask the schoolboy (whom if you explain the above > concept of Uttarayana) and he will tell you that in the Vedic reference the > calendar followed for the Mahashivaratri was the Sidereal calendar and not the > Seasonal calendar. Darshaneyji, in spite of his good intentions prposed that in > 2010 it should be celebrated in 12 tapasya, which defies all logic. It is > neither according the Seasonal calendar nor according to the Sidereal calendar. > If he strictly follows the Seasonal calendar then he should ask people to > celebrate the Mahashivaratri on the Winter solstice day by quoting the > precedence in the Veda. Hope this will not be difficult for > > > you to undertand this. > > > > > > You profess to be so knowledgeable so are you > pretending not to understand all these? If so please do not pretend and do not > continue this unnnecessary mails so that the Jyotishis do not get disturbed in > their main task of jyotish-discussions . I hope you do not like to make > unsubstantiated statements like Shri Kaul, who short-sightaedy does all that > just trying to win an argument. > > > > > > Sincerely, > > > > > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- On Sat, 11/21/09, hari <harimalla@ .> wrote: > > > > > > hari <harimalla@ .> > > > Re: The Views of Patrizia > Norelli-Bachelet > > > > > > Saturday, November 21, 2009, 12:35 AM > > > > > > Dear Bhatachryaji, > > > > > > Can you please explain what is meant by 'utttayan > occurs when sun is in dhanistha or sun is in makar sanrkanti' at different > times of our history.If they could be separated what was the necessity to shift > the nirayan utttaryan from sun in dhanistha to sun in makar sankranti. If > acoording to you indepeendant existaence of the two was OK, we could have as > well continued with sun in dhanistha position of uttrayan even today. Why do > you think they shifted it to makar sankranti as mentioned by Barhamihir.What > was the need if your independant theory of sayan and nirayan was acceptable. > > > > > > Please note that nowadays Shiva ratri is not linked > with winter solstice at all.That may have been an old concept which has no > bearing today. At present Shivaratri is at the mid point between winter > solstice,which is Poush purnima(designated by start of maagha snana) and spring > equinox which is Chaitra purnima (designated by Vaisakh snana). > > > > > > If you think coupling of the sayan and the nirayan > concepts are not needed then please explain why Vedanga jyotish had to > coordinate the sun in dhanistha position, uttarayan and also maagha sukla > pratipada together into one by thesixth sloka.Thus to be Vedic we have to > coordinate sayan sankranti, nirayan sankranti and the lunar tithi > together.Thanks. > > > > > > Hari Malla > > > > > > > > > > > > , Sunil > Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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