Karakas discussion

[Guest guest]

Namaste Narasimha,

 

Just getting back to your comments about karakas (the comments to

me

are at the bottom of

these excerpts), there seem to be some contradictions in that vis-a-vis

other communications there have

been over past several months about the relevance of karakas to signs.

Past

discussions have

been delving into that topic, and have been fairly complex and

involving

some back

and forth between you and Sanjay ji over possible types of

correspondence

between different signs and sets of karakas. Thus I was surprised in

your

response to my question below that you seemed to bar any such

connection. Even your more recent comment about ayur dasas being

related to

the quality of sign in the second from any given sign seems directly

supportive of this over-arching issue. Perhaps the solution to the

question

of why naisargik karakas should be read from the 7th from them for

spouse,

9th for father or teacher, 4th for mother and so on may be tied to this

whole issue as well.

Just wanted to re-air this non-simple discussion that had gotten

sidetracked into the debate about gods. It seems to tie signs and

planets on a primordial level.

 

Thanks

 

Sat Nam,

Sat Siri Kaur

 

 

> RECENT COMMENT ON DASAS BY NARASIMHA:

The third class is the sthira dasa years of 7, 8 and 9 years

for movable, fixed and dual signs (respectively).

 

[Note: these are the numbers of karakas associated with the

lord - Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva - of the 2nd house of death from

a given sign. From a movable sign, the 2nd is a fixed

sign owned by Shiva and 7 planets are controlled by him. From

a fixed sign, the 2nd is a dual sign owned by Vishnu and 8

planets are controlled by him. From a dual sign, the 2nd is a

movable sign owned by Brahma and 9 planets are controlled by

him.]

 

These dasa years of 7, 8 and 9 are used in many ayur dasas.

Examples are Sthira dasa, Niryana Shoola dasa, Brahma dasa,

Mandooka dasa etc.

Sthira karaka for paternal grandfather is Jupiter. Start dasas

from the stronger of 5th (9th from 9th) and 11th (7th from 5th)

houses.

 

 

 

 

EXCERPT FROM ARCHIVES, (SANJAY RATH:)

Let me say a few words about Karakatwas.

 

The three types of Karakas are Sthira, Chara and Naisargika Karakas.

They

are related to Sthira, Chara and Dviswabhava signs (fixed, movable and

dual)

which are

lorded by Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu respectively. Why is this so? The

active

nature of the

Chara signs represents Rajo-Guna which is lorded by Brahma. He is the

one

who

inaugurates creation and manifestation. Therefore Brahma and Chara

Dashas

are good for examining the

same. So Chara Karakas will represent the illusory creation or the

creatures

in your life,

and they are 8 in number. The only planet that does not become Chara

Karaka

is Ketu, as he

is Moksha-karaka, leading to liberation from the bonds of karma.

The Sthira signs are representing inertness, which is the quality of

Tamas,

therby lorded by Shiva. So the Dasha systems connected are Shoola dasha

and

Sthira Dasha,

which are used for timing death. The Sthira Karakas, also have important

 

roles for timing

death. Remember that Rahu and Ketu are naturally exalted in Ta/Sc which

is

used in Ayus

(longevity) matters while the are functionally exalted in Ge/Sg which is

 

used for

Phalita (life events) matters. So the Sthira Karakas are 7 in nmuber,

as

the nodes don't

have a physical body, therefore can't indicate the death of the same.

The Dwisvabhava signs represent the balance between activity and

inertness

Thereby representing Sattwa Guna, lorded by Vishnu or Narayana. The

Dasha

system

connected will be Narayana (Padakrama Dasha), wich is god for almost all

 

spheres of life

including spirituality, Phalita and Ayus as well. So the Naisargika

Karakas

are 9 in

number, including both nodes. And in this sistem Ketu is Karaka of

Moksha,

Sun is

Atmakaraka, Moon is Manakaraka, Jupiter is Guru karak, Venus is

Darakarak

etc. All planets

gain Karakatwas here, and they will signify especially the Dharma

related to

that person or

entity.

 

So you have to use the three types of Karakas accordingly: Chara for

Phalita (results of activities), Sthira for Ayus (timing death) and

Naisargika for Dharma and

Moksha. First we have to define the term " Moksha " .

 

 

 

Dear Narasimha,

>

> I have a question, why look at the 7th from Venus, naisargika

karaka

> for spouse and not at venus itself like you did in the case of

> Chara Karaka for spouse(DK) -Mercury.

>

> Thanks

> Ravi

 

Narasimha answered:

Excellent question! When analyzing the role played by other

people in one's life or when analyzing the death of close

relatives, we use the corresponding chara or sthira karaka

directly.

 

But the naisargika karakatwas relate to the inherent

characteristics and they are native-centric. We take the

7th from Venus for spouse, 9th from Sun for father, 4th

from Moon for mother, 9th from Jupiter for teacher, 3rd

from Mars for younger brother and so on.

 

If I can think of a convincing reason for this

difference, I will share it with you.

 

 

 

 

Narasimha Rao wrote:

Sat Nam Sat Siri ji,

 

>

> > Namaste Narasimha,

> > Thank you for your clear, succinct summary of the different types

> of

> > karakas.

> > A one point of confusion still existing for me is the earlier

> question

> > about whether or how these three different types of karakas relate

> to

> > the three different qualities of rasis. That is, do chara karakas

> > relate to chara rasis, sthira karakas relate to sthira rasis, and

> > naisargika karakas relate to dwisvabhava rasis? The original debate

 

> > seemed to be about which karakas lend themselves to which type of

> signs,

> > and there could be different rationales for whether that were the

> case

> > or whether the karakas related differently, i.e. chara karakas to

> > dwisvabhava rasis and naisargik karakas to chara rasis while sthira

> > karakas seem agreed on to relate to only sthira rasis.

>

> We are not talking about rasis and karakatwas. Karakatwas

> are an independent concept. The nature of matters shown by

> different kinds of karakas and the number of karakas in the

> three types are being linked to the three gods. That's the

> only point.

>

> > Is the idea that interpretation should be drawn from the correct

> type of

> > karaka for the given rasi?

>

> No. That is not the idea.

>

> > For example take Al Gore's rasi, he has Mars and Saturn in chara

> rasi in

> > lagna. Mars is atmakaraka. So we can say

> > Mars being 10L and 5L in lagna that he himself is a very powerful

> > person and has karma to work out with issues of

> > power and relationship to power.

>

> Yes. Parasara says that AK (self) and PK (followers) in the

> 1st and 5th houses gives a raja yoga. If AK owns important

> houses and occupies lagna, it gives strength to the chart.

>

> > Saturn is chara bhratrikaraka, so we

> > can say that he is identified with (Saturn in lagna) elders or

> political

> > predecessors (Saturn, and Saturn in Cancer for throne yoga) as

> > mentors/gurus (Bhratrikaraka) with whom he has an uncomfortable

> > relationship (Sat is seventh lord), Saturn and Mars being inimical.

>

> Using BK to see elders is the approach of Sri K.N. Rao, who

> uses only 7 karakas. Pt. Sanjay Rath uses 8 chara karakas

> (7 sthira, 8 chara and 9 naisargika). Pitri karaka (PiK)

> shows father, elders, authorities and bosses.

>

> > In contrast, looking at Moon and Jupiter in Sagittarius in

> dwisvabhava

> > signs, we would concentrate on the naisargik characteristics of

> these

> > planets and say we have Moon as manas or mind in a dhimantah yoga,

> one

> > lord in six with six lord, showing intelligence applied to

> Jupiterian

> > areas, such as reforms, education, fiscal improvements, environment

> > since Moon is a naisargik karaka for earth and the common people.

>

> Looking at the naisargika karakatwa of Moon, you can look at

> Moon and infer about his mentality. The inferences should be

> limited to the natural characteristics of the mind.

>

> At the same time, you can also look at the chara karakatwa

> of Moon (PiK) and infer about the role played by elders and

> authorities in his life, as far as sustenance is concerned.

> PiK Moon is in the 6th house with a strong GK. Strong GK

> (Jupiter) shows principled or traditional rivals. PiK in 6th

> with him shows some troubles or quarrels or litigation due

> to authorities and rivals coming together.

>

> > In further contrast, he has Mercury in a fixed sign and so could

> Mercury

> > as third lord in the eighth receiving inimical rashi drishtis from

> > sthira bhratrikaraka Mars along with malefics Saturn and Rahu

> refer to

> > the death of his sister from lung cancer. In other words we would

> > follow the lead of the type of rasi to pinpoint interpretation in

> the

> > areas of the various karakas.

> > Looking forward to your comments---

>

> Your points are good, but the basic premise of seeing sthira

> or chara or naisargika karakaktwa based on the rasi occupied

> by the planet is wrong. The above logic based on sthira

> karakatwa would apply even if the planet was not in a fixed

> sign! All the 3 karakatwas of a planet can be used, no matter

> which rasi it occupies.

>

> Basically use naisargika karakatwas in judging the inherent

> nature of a person (mind in the case of Moon in this example).

> Use chara karakas in judging the results one experiences in

> life, related to sustenance (role of father and authorities,

> in the case of Moon in this example). Use sthira karakas in

> judging the death of relatives.

>

> > humbly yours,

> > Sat Siri K.

>

> May Jupiter's light shine on us,

> Narasimha

>

>

[Guest guest]

JAYA JAGANNATHA!

 

Dear members and Gurus,

 

Namaste.

 

> Just wanted to re-air this non-simple discussion that had gotten> sidetracked into the debate about gods. It seems to tie signs and> planets on a primordial level.

Yes, I wanted to hear an answer on this from Gurudeva. Let's recapitulate what was said previously on this matter:

 

In the Sthira Dasa Chara Rasis get 7 years, Sthira Rasis get 8 years and Dwisvabhava rasis get 9 years. Besides that we have 8 Chara karakas, 7 Sthira Karakas and 9 Naisargika Karakas. In last years' emails Gurudeva was explaining that all the Rasis will give the longevity related to the 2nd from them. So for Chara Rasis we get the 7 planets of Sthira Karakas (ruled by Shiva) as the next Rasi is Sthira, also ruled by Shiva. For Sthira Rasis we get the 8 years that is the number of Chara Karakas and they MUST BE RULED BY VISHNU, as Dwisvabhava Rasis are ruled by Him. And finally Dviswabhava Rasis get 9 years for the Naisargika karakas ruled by Brahma, who rules the Chara Rasis, which are the second from them. Finally I understood the linkage! It's rather spohisiticated, but it's logical! And on the surface it seems to be contradictory to say that Brahma rules Chara Rasis and Naisargika Karakas and Vishnu rules Dwisvabhava Rasis and Chara Karakas. But the astrological reasoning behind it is crystal clear now. I present the table below:

 

Devata Guna Rasi years in Sthira Dasa Karaka No. of Karakas Dasa system

 

Brahma Rajas Chara 7 Naisargika 9 Chara

Vishnu Sattwa Dwisvabh. 9 Chara 8 Narayana

Siva Tamas Sthira 8 Sthira 7 Shoola

 

Interstingly enough, in the excerpt below Gurudeva links Naisargika Dasas to Vishnu, as I di before. But later he seemed to change his point of view towards what narasimha stated in recent mails. So Gurudeva, please enlighten us.

 

Yours, Gauranga das

 

> > > RECENT COMMENT ON DASAS BY NARASIMHA:> The third class is the sthira dasa years of 7, 8 and 9 years> for movable, fixed and dual signs (respectively).> > [Note: these are the numbers of karakas associated with the> lord - Brahma/Vishnu/Shiva - of the 2nd house of death from> a given sign. From a movable sign, the 2nd is a fixed> sign owned by Shiva and 7 planets are controlled by him. From> a fixed sign, the 2nd is a dual sign owned by Vishnu and 8> planets are controlled by him. From a dual sign, the 2nd is a> movable sign owned by Brahma and 9 planets are controlled by> him.]> > These dasa years of 7, 8 and 9 are used in many ayur dasas.> Examples are Sthira dasa, Niryana Shoola dasa, Brahma dasa,> Mandooka dasa etc.> Sthira karaka for paternal grandfather is Jupiter. Start dasas> from the stronger of 5th (9th from 9th) and 11th (7th from 5th)> houses.> > > > > EXCERPT FROM ARCHIVES, (SANJAY RATH:)> Let me say a few words about Karakatwas.> > The three types of Karakas are Sthira, Chara and Naisargika Karakas.> They> are related to Sthira, Chara and Dviswabhava signs (fixed, movable and> dual)> which are> lorded by Shiva, Brahma and Vishnu respectively. Why is this so? The> active> nature of the> Chara signs represents Rajo-Guna which is lorded by Brahma. He is the> one> who> inaugurates creation and manifestation. Therefore Brahma and Chara> Dashas> are good for examining the> same. So Chara Karakas will represent the illusory creation or the> creatures> in your life,> and they are 8 in number. The only planet that does not become Chara> Karaka> is Ketu, as he> is Moksha-karaka, leading to liberation from the bonds of karma.> The Sthira signs are representing inertness, which is the quality of> Tamas,> therby lorded by Shiva. So the Dasha systems connected are Shoola dasha> and> Sthira Dasha,> which are used for timing death. The Sthira Karakas, also have important> > roles for timing> death. Remember that Rahu and Ketu are naturally exalted in Ta/Sc which> is> used in Ayus> (longevity) matters while the are functionally exalted in Ge/Sg which is> > used for> Phalita (life events) matters. So the Sthira Karakas are 7 in nmuber,> as> the nodes don't> have a physical body, therefore can't indicate the death of the same.> The Dwisvabhava signs represent the balance between activity and> inertness> Thereby representing Sattwa Guna, lorded by Vishnu or Narayana. The> Dasha> system> connected will be Narayana (Padakrama Dasha), wich is god for almost all> > spheres of life> including spirituality, Phalita and Ayus as well. So the Naisargika> Karakas> are 9 in> number, including both nodes. And in this sistem Ketu is Karaka of> Moksha,> Sun is> Atmakaraka, Moon is Manakaraka, Jupiter is Guru karak, Venus is> Darakarak> etc. All planets> gain Karakatwas here, and they will signify especially the Dharma> related to> that person or> entity.> > So you have to use the three types of Karakas accordingly: Chara for> Phalita (results of activities), Sthira for Ayus (timing death) and> Naisargika for Dharma and> Moksha. First we have to define the term "Moksha".> > > > Dear Narasimha,> >> > I have a question, why look at the 7th from Venus, naisargika> karaka> > for spouse and not at venus itself like you did in the case of> > Chara Karaka for spouse(DK) -Mercury.> >> > Thanks> > Ravi> > Narasimha answered:> Excellent question! When analyzing the role played by other> people in one's life or when analyzing the death of close> relatives, we use the corresponding chara or sthira karaka> directly.> > But the naisargika karakatwas relate to the inherent> characteristics and they are native-centric. We take the> 7th from Venus for spouse, 9th from Sun for father, 4th> from Moon for mother, 9th from Jupiter for teacher, 3rd> from Mars for younger brother and so on.> > If I can think of a convincing reason for this> difference, I will share it with you.> > > > > Narasimha Rao wrote:> Sat Nam Sat Siri ji,> > >> > > Namaste Narasimha,> > > Thank you for your clear, succinct summary of the different types> > of> > > karakas.> > > A one point of confusion still existing for me is the earlier> > question> > > about whether or how these three different types of karakas relate> > to> > > the three different qualities of rasis. That is, do chara karakas> > > relate to chara rasis, sthira karakas relate to sthira rasis, and> > > naisargika karakas relate to dwisvabhava rasis? The original debate> > > > seemed to be about which karakas lend themselves to which type of> > signs,> > > and there could be different rationales for whether that were the> > case> > > or whether the karakas related differently, i.e. chara karakas to> > > dwisvabhava rasis and naisargik karakas to chara rasis while sthira> > > karakas seem agreed on to relate to only sthira rasis.> >> > We are not talking about rasis and karakatwas. Karakatwas> > are an independent concept. The nature of matters shown by> > different kinds of karakas and the number of karakas in the> > three types are being linked to the three gods. That's the> > only point.> >> > > Is the idea that interpretation should be drawn from the correct> > type of> > > karaka for the given rasi?> >> > No. That is not the idea.> >> > > For example take Al Gore's rasi, he has Mars and Saturn in chara> > rasi in> > > lagna. Mars is atmakaraka. So we can say> > > Mars being 10L and 5L in lagna that he himself is a very powerful> > > person and has karma to work out with issues of> > > power and relationship to power.> >> > Yes. Parasara says that AK (self) and PK (followers) in the> > 1st and 5th houses gives a raja yoga. If AK owns important> > houses and occupies lagna, it gives strength to the chart.> >> > > Saturn is chara bhratrikaraka, so we> > > can say that he is identified with (Saturn in lagna) elders or> > political> > > predecessors (Saturn, and Saturn in Cancer for throne yoga) as> > > mentors/gurus (Bhratrikaraka) with whom he has an uncomfortable> > > relationship (Sat is seventh lord), Saturn and Mars being inimical.> >> > Using BK to see elders is the approach of Sri K.N. Rao, who> > uses only 7 karakas. Pt. Sanjay Rath uses 8 chara karakas> > (7 sthira, 8 chara and 9 naisargika). Pitri karaka (PiK)> > shows father, elders, authorities and bosses.> >> > > In contrast, looking at Moon and Jupiter in Sagittarius in> > dwisvabhava> > > signs, we would concentrate on the naisargik characteristics of> > these> > > planets and say we have Moon as manas or mind in a dhimantah yoga,> > one> > > lord in six with six lord, showing intelligence applied to> > Jupiterian> > > areas, such as reforms, education, fiscal improvements, environment> > > since Moon is a naisargik karaka for earth and the common people.> >> > Looking at the naisargika karakatwa of Moon, you can look at> > Moon and infer about his mentality. The inferences should be> > limited to the natural characteristics of the mind.> >> > At the same time, you can also look at the chara karakatwa> > of Moon (PiK) and infer about the role played by elders and> > authorities in his life, as far as sustenance is concerned.> > PiK Moon is in the 6th house with a strong GK. Strong GK> > (Jupiter) shows principled or traditional rivals. PiK in 6th> > with him shows some troubles or quarrels or litigation due> > to authorities and rivals coming together.> >> > > In further contrast, he has Mercury in a fixed sign and so could> > Mercury> > > as third lord in the eighth receiving inimical rashi drishtis from> > > sthira bhratrikaraka Mars along with malefics Saturn and Rahu> > refer to> > > the death of his sister from lung cancer. In other words we would> > > follow the lead of the type of rasi to pinpoint interpretation in> > the> > > areas of the various karakas.> > > Looking forward to your comments---> >> > Your points are good, but the basic premise of seeing sthira> > or chara or naisargika karakaktwa based on the rasi occupied> > by the planet is wrong. The above logic based on sthira> > karakatwa would apply even if the planet was not in a fixed> > sign! All the 3 karakatwas of a planet can be used, no matter> > which rasi it occupies.> >> > Basically use naisargika karakatwas in judging the inherent> > nature of a person (mind in the case of Moon in this example).> > Use chara karakas in judging the results one experiences in> > life, related to sustenance (role of father and authorities,> > in the case of Moon in this example). Use sthira karakas in> > judging the death of relatives.> >> > > humbly yours,> > > Sat Siri K.> >> > May Jupiter's light shine on us,> > Narasimha> >> >> > > > > OM TAT SAT> Archive: varahamihira> Info: varahamihira/info.html> > >

[Guest guest]

Sat Nam Sat Siri ji,

 

> Namaste Narasimha,

>

> Just getting back to your comments about karakas (the

comments to

> me

> are at the bottom of

> these excerpts), there seem to be some contradictions in that vis-a-

vis

> other communications there have

> been over past several months about the relevance of karakas to

signs.

> Past

> discussions have

> been delving into that topic, and have been fairly complex and

> involving

> some back

> and forth between you and Sanjay ji over possible types of

> correspondence

> between different signs and sets of karakas. Thus I was surprised

in

> your

> response to my question below that you seemed to bar any such

> connection.

 

What I barred was using only sthira karakatwa of a planet in a

sthira rasi, chara karakatwa of a planet in chara rasi etc,

which you seemed to be suggesting. My only point was that all

the karakatwas of a planet can be used (to see different

matters), irrespective of the rasi occupied by it.

 

With Trimurthis lording over the three types of rasis and the

three types of karakas and with the years associated with the

three types of rasis matching with the count of karakas in each

type, obviously there are bound to be some links. But the link

is not so simplistic that only sthira karakatwa of a planet in

sthira rasi should be used etc.

 

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha