Guest guest Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Hare Rama Krsna The mantra is aiM hriiM kliiM ....... if one sees it in Itrans (for internet Sanskrit). It is not an " m " or an " ng " It is an Anusvaara, written in Itrans as " M " and in URW font as " à " . For best pronunciation one should talk to a Sanskrit teacher and listen to them. My Sanskrit teacher described it as the ma kara (m) sound but not closing the lips, instead closing the throat. In this way it directs the sound to the sahasrara chakra. If you close the lips to make it an 'm' then it becomes a labial (and vibrates the lips) instead of a nasal, and if you say it as 'ng' then it stays too low. When you see it written as m or ng it is just a font/translation problem as English does not contain the sound or letter of anusvaara. [There may be disagreement about the pronunciation of anusvaara but not in the fact that it is anusvaara that ends these and all other bijas.] This mantra is a Durga mantra used to remove the negative effects of Rahu and/or strengthen the Moon. It is 5 words, nine syllables, and the devatta sits in the first house, therefore it works on trines to strengthen and protect dharma. I do not know of any planet placements that are contraindicated for this mantra, though see VRA p240 for more details. It is best at the times indicated for Durga worship. The best time period to begin this mantra is during Navaratri. Namah Sivaya her_asha [her_asha] Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:00 AM sohamsa Re: how to pronounce navaran mantra? Namaste I have a further question regarding this mantra. For what purposes, situations, problems is this mantra used as a remedy? Are there any chart placements for which it would be harmful to receite this mantra? many thanks kind regards her_asha sohamsa , " vikas " <vedicvikas> wrote: > > Sirs, > how should we pronounce navaran mantra > as > aim hreem kleem chamundaye vichhe or > aing hreeng kleeng chamundaye vichhe? > > kindly suggest > > with regards > > vikas > *tat savitur varenyam* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 21, 2006 Report Share Posted January 21, 2006 Hare Rama Krsna Thank you very much for your beautiful explanation!!! I chant Durga mantra every morning for several years and only now recognized, that I do that totally wrong. I've had doubts about my chanting, but now I see my problem. Thanks a lot for your message again!!! May we chant the Durga Mantra in the mind only (without sounds)? May I ask to give a link or send an audio file with an example of correct chanting? Sincerely yours, Youry sohamsa wrote on 21/01/2006 12:17:49 PM: > > > Hare Rama Krsna > > The mantra is aiM hriiM kliiM ....... if one sees it in Itrans (for internet > Sanskrit). > > It is not an " m " or an " ng " > > It is an Anusvaara, written in Itrans as " M " and in URW font as " à " . For > best pronunciation one should talk to a Sanskrit teacher and listen to them. > My Sanskrit teacher described it as the ma kara (m) sound but not closing > the lips, instead closing the throat. In this way it directs the sound to > the sahasrara chakra. If you close the lips to make it an 'm' then it > becomes a labial (and vibrates the lips) instead of a nasal, and if you say > it as 'ng' then it stays too low. When you see it written as m or ng it is > just a font/translation problem as English does not contain the sound or > letter of anusvaara. [There may be disagreement about the pronunciation of > anusvaara but not in the fact that it is anusvaara that ends these and all > other bijas.] > > This mantra is a Durga mantra used to remove the negative effects of Rahu > and/or strengthen the Moon. It is 5 words, nine syllables, and the devatta > sits in the first house, therefore it works on trines to strengthen and > protect dharma. > > I do not know of any planet placements that are contraindicated for this > mantra, though see VRA p240 for more details. > > It is best at the times indicated for Durga worship. The best time period to > begin this mantra is during Navaratri. > > Namah Sivaya > > > her_asha [her_asha] > Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:00 AM > sohamsa > Re: how to pronounce navaran mantra? > > Namaste > > I have a further question regarding this mantra. For what purposes, > situations, problems is this mantra used as a remedy? > > Are there any chart placements for which it would be harmful to > receite this mantra? > > many thanks > > kind regards > her_asha > > sohamsa , " vikas " <vedicvikas> wrote: > > > > Sirs, > > how should we pronounce navaran mantra > > as > > aim hreem kleem chamundaye vichhe or > > aing hreeng kleeng chamundaye vichhe? > > > > kindly suggest > > > > with regards > > > > vikas > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Hare Rama Krsna Vedic chanting is not something you will just get right, immediately. It is something that we practice, practice and practice and continually get better and better. I recommend learning the Sanskrit alphabet, practicing this, and take time with each mantra to read it from the original Sanskrit. The science of pronunciation is a vedanga, an entire limb of the Vedas like Jyotisha. Namah Sivaya khmelevsky [khmelevsky] Saturday, January 21, 2006 1:56 PM sohamsa RE: Re: how to pronounce navarna mantra Hare Rama Krsna Thank you very much for your beautiful explanation!!! I chant Durga mantra every morning for several years and only now recognized, that I do that totally wrong. I've had doubts about my chanting, but now I see my problem. Thanks a lot for your message again!!! May we chant the Durga Mantra in the mind only (without sounds)? May I ask to give a link or send an audio file with an example of correct chanting? Sincerely yours, Youry sohamsa wrote on 21/01/2006 12:17:49 PM: > > > Hare Rama Krsna > > The mantra is aiM hriiM kliiM ....... if one sees it in Itrans (for internet > Sanskrit). > > It is not an " m " or an " ng " > > It is an Anusvaara, written in Itrans as " M " and in URW font as " à " . For > best pronunciation one should talk to a Sanskrit teacher and listen to them. > My Sanskrit teacher described it as the ma kara (m) sound but not closing > the lips, instead closing the throat. In this way it directs the sound to > the sahasrara chakra. If you close the lips to make it an 'm' then it > becomes a labial (and vibrates the lips) instead of a nasal, and if you say > it as 'ng' then it stays too low. When you see it written as m or ng it is > just a font/translation problem as English does not contain the sound or > letter of anusvaara. [There may be disagreement about the pronunciation of > anusvaara but not in the fact that it is anusvaara that ends these and all > other bijas.] > > This mantra is a Durga mantra used to remove the negative effects of Rahu > and/or strengthen the Moon. It is 5 words, nine syllables, and the devatta > sits in the first house, therefore it works on trines to strengthen and > protect dharma. > > I do not know of any planet placements that are contraindicated for this > mantra, though see VRA p240 for more details. > > It is best at the times indicated for Durga worship. The best time period to > begin this mantra is during Navaratri. > > Namah Sivaya > > > her_asha [her_asha] > Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:00 AM > To: sohamsa > Re: how to pronounce navaran mantra? > > Namaste > > I have a further question regarding this mantra. For what purposes, > situations, problems is this mantra used as a remedy? > > Are there any chart placements for which it would be harmful to > receite this mantra? > > many thanks > > kind regards > her_asha > > sohamsa , " vikas " <vedicvikas> wrote: > > > > Sirs, > > how should we pronounce navaran mantra > > as > > aim hreem kleem chamundaye vichhe or > > aing hreeng kleeng chamundaye vichhe? > > > > kindly suggest > > > > with regards > > > > vikas > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > Groups Links > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Hello Freedom, Youry, Thank you Freedom for nice explanation of sounds, mantra- many people will benefit frrom your post. I'd just like to add smth in response to Mr. Melevsky: have you tried chanting prayers /in addition to mantras?- This seems to be an old terrain of disagreement- some jyotisha' think that mantras are self-correcting, that one cannot be wrong if sincere- /I feel that way too/ I don't think that chanting, even if pronunciation is not OK, can hurt- chants of any kind, those meaningful to us, DO HELP our mind, thus helping our existence. Pray to God with Love and your words will be energized and invested and WILL manifest as positive power on cellular level, as well as on macro level, with all the variations in-between. Word is OMEN- /Nomen est Omen-Latin lang./ we find in the Bible, and indeed, emotionally invested words, names, day-in and day-out, DO bring changes- what's important here is- emotional investment. Bless You, A.khmelevsky wrote: Hare Rama Krsna Thank you very much for your beautiful explanation!!! I chant Durga mantra every morning for several years and only now recognized, that I do that totally wrong. I've had doubts about my chanting, but now I see my problem. Thanks a lot for your message again!!! May we chant the Durga Mantra in the mind only (without sounds)? May I ask to give a link or send an audio file with an example of correct chanting? Sincerely yours, Youry sohamsa wrote on 21/01/2006 12:17:49 PM:> > > Hare Rama Krsna > > The mantra is aiM hriiM kliiM ....... if one sees it in Itrans (for internet > Sanskrit). > > It is not an "m" or an "ng" > > It is an Anusvaara, written in Itrans as "M" and in URW font as "à". For > best pronunciation one should talk to a Sanskrit teacher and listen to them. > My Sanskrit teacher described it as the ma kara (m) sound but not closing > the lips, instead closing the throat. In this way it directs the sound to > the sahasrara chakra. If you close the lips to make it an 'm' then it > becomes a labial (and vibrates the lips) instead of a nasal, and if you say > it as 'ng' then it stays too low. When you see it written as m or ng it is > just a font/translation problem as English does not contain the sound or > letter of anusvaara. [There may be disagreement about the pronunciation of > anusvaara but not in the fact that it is anusvaara that ends these and all > other bijas.] > > This mantra is a Durga mantra used to remove the negative effects of Rahu > and/or strengthen the Moon. It is 5 words, nine syllables, and the devatta > sits in the first house, therefore it works on trines to strengthen and > protect dharma. > > I do not know of any planet placements that are contraindicated for this > mantra, though see VRA p240 for more details. > > It is best at the times indicated for Durga worship. The best time period to > begin this mantra is during Navaratri. > > Namah Sivaya > > > her_asha [her_asha] > Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:00 AM > sohamsa > Re: how to pronounce navaran mantra? > > Namaste > > I have a further question regarding this mantra. For what purposes, > situations, problems is this mantra used as a remedy? > > Are there any chart placements for which it would be harmful to > receite this mantra? > > many thanks > > kind regards > her_asha > > sohamsa , "vikas" <vedicvikas> wrote: > > > > Sirs, > > how should we pronounce navaran mantra > > as > > aim hreem kleem chamundaye vichhe or > > aing hreeng kleeng chamundaye vichhe? > > > > kindly suggest > > > > with regards > > > > vikas > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Dear A. Ji and Freedom Ji, Thanks a lot for reply! I'm practising the vedic chanting almost for 10 years (from September 1996) 1-2 times a day from 30-40 minutes to several hours and really want to improve my chanting. Some mantras are going very well, but I have doubts about Durga mantra correctness, which was prescribed to me by Visti Larsen Ji in 2002. Yes, I have experience with chanting prayers in addition to mantras and have very strong results. From the other side, I did read in other forums, that Durga Mantra can harm, especially if the mantra starts without Om. I'm still chanting as was prescribed by Visti Ji " Om Aim Hrim Klim Chamundayai Vichchai " . Could you please recommend a good Sanskrit alphabet for study? Sincerely yours, Youry sohamsa wrote on 21/01/2006 03:45:24 PM: > Hello Freedom, > > Youry, > > Thank you Freedom for nice explanation of sounds, mantra- many > people will benefit frrom your post. I'd just like to add smth in > response to Mr. Melevsky: > have you tried chanting prayers /in addition to mantras?- > > This seems to be an old terrain of disagreement- some > jyotisha' think that mantras are self-correcting, that one cannot > be wrong if sincere- /I feel that way too/ > > I don't think that chanting, even if pronunciation is not OK, can > hurt- chants of any kind, those meaningful to us, DO HELP our mind, > thus helping our existence. Pray to God with Love and your words > will be energized and invested and WILL manifest as positive power > on cellular level, as well as on macro level, with all the > variations in-between. Word is OMEN- /Nomen est Omen-Latin lang./ we > find in the Bible, and indeed, emotionally invested words, names, > day-in and day-out, DO bring changes- what's important here is- > emotional investment. > > Bless You, > A. > > khmelevsky wrote: > > Hare Rama Krsna > > Thank you very much for your beautiful explanation!!! > > I chant Durga mantra every morning for several years and only now > recognized, that I do that totally wrong. I've had doubts about my > chanting, but now I see my problem. Thanks a lot for your message again!!! > > May we chant the Durga Mantra in the mind only (without sounds)? May > I ask to give a link or send an audio file with an example of correct chanting > ? > > Sincerely yours, > > Youry > > sohamsa wrote on 21/01/2006 12:17:49 PM: > > > > > > > Hare Rama Krsna > > > > The mantra is aiM hriiM kliiM ....... if one sees it in Itrans (for internet > > Sanskrit). > > > > It is not an " m " or an " ng " > > > > It is an Anusvaara, written in Itrans as " M " and in URW font as " à " . For > > best pronunciation one should talk to a Sanskrit teacher and listen to them. > > My Sanskrit teacher described it as the ma kara (m) sound but not closing > > the lips, instead closing the throat. In this way it directs the sound to > > the sahasrara chakra. If you close the lips to make it an 'm' then it > > becomes a labial (and vibrates the lips) instead of a nasal, and if you say > > it as 'ng' then it stays too low. When you see it written as m or ng it is > > just a font/translation problem as English does not contain the sound or > > letter of anusvaara. [There may be disagreement about the pronunciation of > > anusvaara but not in the fact that it is anusvaara that ends these and all > > other bijas.] > > > > This mantra is a Durga mantra used to remove the negative effects of Rahu > > and/or strengthen the Moon. It is 5 words, nine syllables, and the devatta > > sits in the first house, therefore it works on trines to strengthen and > > protect dharma. > > > > I do not know of any planet placements that are contraindicated for this > > mantra, though see VRA p240 for more details. > > > > It is best at the times indicated for Durga worship. The best timeperiod to > > begin this mantra is during Navaratri. > > > > Namah Sivaya > > > > > > her_asha [her_asha] > > Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:00 AM > > sohamsa > > Re: how to pronounce navaran mantra? > > > > Namaste > > > > I have a further question regarding this mantra. For what purposes, > > situations, problems is this mantra used as a remedy? > > > > Are there any chart placements for which it would be harmful to > > receite this mantra? > > > > many thanks > > > > kind regards > > her_asha > > > > sohamsa , " vikas " <vedicvikas> wrote: > > > > > > Sirs, > > > how should we pronounce navaran mantra > > > as > > > aim hreem kleem chamundaye vichhe or > > > aing hreeng kleeng chamundaye vichhe? > > > > > > kindly suggest > > > > > > with regards > > > > > > vikas > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Hare Rama Krsna A mantra is composed of many parts; pronunciation, chanda (meter), meaning (both outer and inner), as well as ‘when’ it is done, how much it is done, and various rituals that go along with the mantra like rishi, bija, sakti, nyasa, etc The intention is very powerful and will manifest its results over time. Our goal is to learn the science of mantra relative to jyotisha and to be able to make the greatest amount of good in the shortest amount of time, thereby ensuring that we achieve our goals in this life. As jyotishis we give siksha mantra as medicine to people, not just mantra to attain eventual liberation. We need to get results (alleviation of suffering) for our clients and ourselves. There is benefit just in practicing a mantra (with unknown meaning or mispronounced with good intention). Though the more we learn the more we benefit. For example, some say that to do a mantra without knowing its meaning gives only 60 percent of the result. So to get a hundred percent of the result is our goal, and it is an enjoyable journey of learning. Jyotish will show us what mantras/prayers are best to practice, the other vedanga show us how to practice them. It is a beautiful science that all works together. Namah Sivaya 108ar [bona_mente] Saturday, January 21, 2006 3:45 PM sohamsa RE: Re: how to pronounce navarna mantra Hello Freedom, Youry, Thank you Freedom for nice explanation of sounds, mantra- many people will benefit frrom your post. I'd just like to add smth in response to Mr. Melevsky: have you tried chanting prayers /in addition to mantras?- This seems to be an old terrain of disagreement- some jyotisha' think that mantras are self-correcting, that one cannot be wrong if sincere- /I feel that way too/ I don't think that chanting, even if pronunciation is not OK, can hurt- chants of any kind, those meaningful to us, DO HELP our mind, thus helping our existence. Pray to God with Love and your words will be energized and invested and WILL manifest as positive power on cellular level, as well as on macro level, with all the variations in-between. Word is OMEN- /Nomen est Omen-Latin lang./ we find in the Bible, and indeed, emotionally invested words, names, day-in and day-out, DO bring changes- what's important here is- emotional investment. Bless You, A. khmelevsky wrote: Hare Rama Krsna Thank you very much for your beautiful explanation!!! I chant Durga mantra every morning for several years and only now recognized, that I do that totally wrong. I've had doubts about my chanting, but now I see my problem. Thanks a lot for your message again!!! May we chant the Durga Mantra in the mind only (without sounds)? May I ask to give a link or send an audio file with an example of correct chanting? Sincerely yours, Youry sohamsa wrote on 21/01/2006 12:17:49 PM: > > > Hare Rama Krsna > > The mantra is aiM hriiM kliiM ....... if one sees it in Itrans (for internet > Sanskrit). > > It is not an " m " or an " ng " > > It is an Anusvaara, written in Itrans as " M " and in URW font as " à " . For > best pronunciation one should talk to a Sanskrit teacher and listen to them. > My Sanskrit teacher described it as the ma kara (m) sound but not closing > the lips, instead closing the throat. In this way it directs the sound to > the sahasrara chakra. If you close the lips to make it an 'm' then it > becomes a labial (and vibrates the lips) instead of a nasal, and if you say > it as 'ng' then it stays too low. When you see it written as m or ng it is > just a font/translation problem as English does not contain the sound or > letter of anusvaara. [There may be disagreement about the pronunciation of > anusvaara but not in the fact that it is anusvaara that ends these and all > other bijas.] > > This mantra is a Durga mantra used to remove the negative effects of Rahu > and/or strengthen the Moon. It is 5 words, nine syllables, and the devatta > sits in the first house, therefore it works on trines to strengthen and > protect dharma. > > I do not know of any planet placements that are contraindicated for this > mantra, though see VRA p240 for more details. > > It is best at the times indicated for Durga worship. The best time period to > begin this mantra is during Navaratri. > > Namah Sivaya > > > her_asha [her_asha] > Sent: Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:00 AM > To: sohamsa > Re: how to pronounce navaran mantra? > > Namaste > > I have a further question regarding this mantra. For what purposes, > situations, problems is this mantra used as a remedy? > > Are there any chart placements for which it would be harmful to > receite this mantra? > > many thanks > > kind regards > her_asha > > sohamsa , " vikas " <vedicvikas> wrote: > > > > Sirs, > > how should we pronounce navaran mantra > > as > > aim hreem kleem chamundaye vichhe or > > aing hreeng kleeng chamundaye vichhe? > > > > kindly suggest > > > > with regards > > > > vikas > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > Groups Links > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted January 22, 2006 Report Share Posted January 22, 2006 Dear Shri Freedom Ji, May I ask you please, to give an exactly translation and meaning of the Durga Mantra (both outer and inner): Om Aim Hrim Klim Chamundayai Vichchai? I'm not sure in the correct understanding of the Durga Mantra. Maybe that's reason of my problems. Sincerely yours, Youry sohamsa wrote on 21/01/2006 06:50:41 PM: > Hare Rama Krsna > > > > A mantra is composed of many parts; pronunciation, chanda(meter), > meaning (both outer and inner), as well as ‘when’ it is done, how > much it is done, and various rituals that go along with the mantra > like rishi, bija, sakti, nyasa, etc > > > > The intention is very powerful and will manifest its results over > time. Our goal is to learn the science of mantra relative to > jyotishaand to be able to make the greatest amount of good in the > shortest amount of time, thereby ensuring that we achieve our goals > in this life. As jyotishiswe give sikshamantra as medicine to > people, not just mantra to attain eventual liberation. We need to > get results (alleviation of suffering) for our clients and ourselves. > > > > There is benefit just in practicing a mantra (with unknown meaning > or mispronounced with good intention). Though the more we learn the > more we benefit. For example, some say that to do a mantra without > knowing its meaning gives only 60 percent of the result. So to get a > hundred percent of the result is our goal, and it is an enjoyable > journey of learning. Jyotish will show us what mantras/prayers are > best to practice, the other vedangashow us how to practice them. It > is a beautiful science that all works together. > > > > Namah Sivaya > > > > 108ar [bona_mente] > Saturday, January 21, 2006 3:45 PM > sohamsa > RE: Re: how to pronounce navarna mantra > > > > Hello Freedom, > > > > Youry, > > > > Thank you Freedom for nice explanation of sounds, mantra- many > people will benefit frrom your post. I'd just like to add smth in > response to Mr. Melevsky: > > have you tried chanting prayers /in addition to mantras?- > > > > This seems to be an old terrain of disagreement- some > jyotisha' think that mantras are self-correcting, that one cannot > be wrong if sincere- /I feel that way too/ > > > > I don't think that chanting, even if pronunciation is not OK, can > hurt- chants of any kind, those meaningful to us, DO HELP our mind, > thus helping our existence. Pray to God with Love and your words > will be energized and invested and WILL manifest as positive power > on cellular level, as well as on macro level, with all the > variations in-between. Word is OMEN- /Nomen est Omen-Latin lang./ we > find in the Bible, and indeed, emotionally invested words, names, > day-in and day-out, DO bring changes- what's important here is- > emotional investment. > > > > Bless You, > > A. > > khmelevsky wrote: > > Hare Rama Krsna > > Thank you very much for your beautiful explanation!!! > > I chant Durga mantra every morning for several years and only now > recognized, that I do that totally wrong. I've had doubts about my > chanting, but now I see my problem. Thanks a lot for your message again!!! > > May we chant the Durga Mantra in the mind only (without sounds)? May > I ask to give a link or send an audio file with an example of correct chanting > ? > > Sincerely yours, > > Youry > > sohamsa wrote on 21/01/2006 12:17:49 PM: > > > > > > > Hare Rama Krsna > > > > The mantra is aiM hriiM kliiM ....... if one sees it in Itrans (for internet > > Sanskrit). > > > > It is not an " m " or an " ng " > > > > It is an Anusvaara, written in Itrans as " M " and in URW font as " à " . For > > best pronunciation one should talk to a Sanskrit teacher and listen to them. > > My Sanskrit teacher described it as the ma kara (m) sound but not closing > > the lips, instead closing the throat. In this way it directs the sound to > > the sahasrara chakra. If you close the lips to make it an 'm' then it > > becomes a labial (and vibrates the lips) instead of a nasal, and if you say > > it as 'ng' then it stays too low. When you see it written as m or ng it is > > just a font/translation problem as English does not contain the sound or > > letter of anusvaara. [There may be disagreement about the pronunciation of > > anusvaara but not in the fact that it is anusvaara that ends these and all > > other bijas.] > > > > This mantra is a Durga mantra used to remove the negative effects of Rahu > > and/or strengthen the Moon. It is 5 words, nine syllables, and the devatta > > sits in the first house, therefore it works on trines to strengthen and > > protect dharma. > > > > I do not know of any planet placements that are contraindicated for this > > mantra, though see VRA p240 for more details. > > > > It is best at the times indicated for Durga worship. The best timeperiod to > > begin this mantra is during Navaratri. > > > > Namah Sivaya > > > > > > her_asha [her_asha] > > Sunday, January 15, 2006 6:00 AM > > sohamsa > > Re: how to pronounce navaran mantra? > > > > Namaste > > > > I have a further question regarding this mantra. For what purposes, > > situations, problems is this mantra used as a remedy? > > > > Are there any chart placements for which it would be harmful to > > receite this mantra? > > > > many thanks > > > > kind regards > > her_asha > > > > sohamsa , " vikas " <vedicvikas> wrote: > > > > > > Sirs, > > > how should we pronounce navaran mantra > > > as > > > aim hreem kleem chamundaye vichhe or > > > aing hreeng kleeng chamundaye vichhe? > > > > > > kindly suggest > > > > > > with regards > > > > > > vikas > > > > > > > *tat savitur varenyam* > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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