Guest guest Posted December 12, 2000 Report Share Posted December 12, 2000 Om Krishna Guru Namaskar Syamasundara Prabhu, My comments are below your learned ones in blue color to differentiate: Dear Sanjay Prabhu,Hare Krsna! Jaya Prabhupada!Jaya Jagannath MahaprabhuThe views of Parasara and Varaha Mihira below.Sanjaya Said:> First point is the Jyotish theory about the excetory system. This has five> Vital Parts in the excetion of the five tatwa. Leaving the vayu Tatwa> (Apana Vayu or exhaling of air) and Agni etc aside, we concentrate on the> Jala and Prithvi Tatwa. The liquid excetion consists of the Urinary system> and the Sweating out from the Skin. This is ruled by the natural sign> Virgo and the sixth house which shows the Kidneys and other associated> organs. The solid excretory system is from the Anus shown by the 8th> house. The natural sign for this is Scorpio and the natural planet> signifying this is saturn. Thus your point about the 8th house is not> clear.Parasara says: Virgo rules area near hip, Libra area below navel, Scorpiothe private parts. BPHS 4.4Same assignment for 6,7,8 houses.Mihiracarya says: Virgo -- waist, Libra -- pelvis, Scorpio -- the generativeorgan. Brhat Jataka 1.4Same assignment for 6,7,8 houses.I could get the same from any classical text book.Since the anus is in juxtoposition to the genitals it also gets covered byScorpio/8th house.Pandita Gopesh Kumar Ojha (father of Asutosh Ojha who did Prabhupada'schart) nicely explains the parts of the body ruled in the area of Virgo,Libra and Scorpio in this way:"Virgo: portion below navel and above Basti.Libra: BastiScorpio: Genitals, anus.What is Basti? If we take the part of the body commencing from the navel tothe genitals and divide it horizontally into two parts, the upper portionrepresents Virgo and the lower portion Libra. This lower portion (from thenavel to the genitals) is called Basti.So, where are the kidneys the workhorse of our Urinary system. These are in the same portion that you and I describe as Virgo i.e. between the navel and the triangle. In any case, the KIDNEYS ARE NOT IN ANY WAY NEAR THE GENITALS OR ANUS. So, you will agree that the sixth house controls the urinary system and an error our here shall manifest in the form of urinary troubles, kidney stones etc. The LINGA is in the seventh house and its functions are two fold - to create a pathway for the semen created in the 8th house where the sacs lie and for the bladder in the sixth house.If any sign [or house] is tenanted by a Papa or aspected by it, thecorresponding part of the body suffers from disease."I agree. Paapa is better defined as the Rogesha (Lord of the eighth house or other natural/ functional malefics to add).Pandita Gopesh Kumar Ojha "Predictive Astrology of the Hindus" p.53. This bythe way, is an excellent book, I have worn out several copies.I agree. This is an excellent work.I hope this is now clear.I think it is very clear now.> Second is to examine the sixth house in both the charts for the Urinary> system affliction. We know that "Any part of the body associated with the> 8th Lord (Rogesha) gets very afflicted and diseased for long term or life> threatening problems." With Sagittarius Lagna, the 8th Lord is in the 6th> house showing that the disease can be associated with the lower stomach> and Urinary system. Being the Moon this is more likely to happen. With> Capricorn Lagna, the 8th Lord sun is in the 8th house and this is not> clearly indicated. I fail to see the association of Ketu with the urinary> system. Mercury if associated could have done so.Syamasundara Prabhu wrote:We now quote from Ojha's reading of SP's chart in reference to the effect ofKetu:"Now we will take the effect of Rahu. First of all, we want to say that Rahuand Ketu show the effect of the planet they conjoin with, or if there is noplanet, then they show the effect of the lord of the house and according tothe strength of the owner of the house. Well known fact that the nodes, [like Durga take the weapons of the other gods (Planets representing Gods)] take the nature of the planets they conjoin.. Ketu here will show the effect ofJupiter and Sun. Sun's powerful in this position and is a good planet.Vaidyanatha writes that Ketu in the eighth house with benefics or ifaspected by benefics, makes a person rich and long-lived. **Yavanacaryaswrites that Ketu in the eighth causes the urinary problems or diseases ofthe semen.** Sun has nothing to do with the Urinary system nor has Jupiter anything to do with this. If the Sun is powerful and beneficial in this position and that Ketu is indicating the "powerful and beneficial results of the sun", then how did it indicate the urinary problem? A slight contradiction in argument is seen here. The argument od Vaidyanatha quoted supports the beneficial results of Ketu with the Sun and Jupiter. Yavana Jataka is a very challenging work indeed. While I can agree with the latter part of the reading that the conjunction of Ketu with the eighth house can cause diseases of semen (due to its affliction of the sacs/semen creating organs), the reading about Urinary infection is taken with a pinch of salt. Yes, if the sage refers to a disease like spermatorrhea where the semen flows out with the urine, then it is acceptable. In fact, Ketu in the eighth reminds one of the horoscope of the great philosopher J Krishnamurthy (Rishi Valley Public School, theosophical Movement etc) with similar positions. Here ketu gave him very strange spiritual experiences about the Kundalini and Makara Lagna makes a person less of a believer and more of a philosopher. Srila was the Greatest believer. In fact at a time when the world was looking for scientific truths and proofs, He sttod out as the single greatest exponent of the Bhagavatam. Makara Lagna is not a good believer. Sometimes problems in teeth and mouth, is courageous, andsuccessful in life however he says it can cause skin or hair problem;Gholab-indicates that he is very successful and well known. Gopalratnakaraindicates problem in the fiftieth year. Ketu always gives the effect of theplanets with him."Problems in teeth and mouth are due to the placement of Rahu in the second and not Ketu in the eighth house. Skin problems would come due to association with Mercury where even breakage of bones are seen. Ketu rukes hair so, being in the eighth it can give hair related problems or such skin problems coming from the hair on the skin. I don't know if srila had hair or Skin related problems. Being successful and well known due to ketu in the 8th house alone is something you and I can agree to leave aside for the moment!! Asutosh Ojha from Transcendental Horoscope of Srila Prabhupada byShyamasundara DasaHe makes seevral other references about this. This is from a transcript ofan interview with Ojha back in 1995 also found in the text quoted above. AOAsutosh Oja, SD me:Rath:Thank you for sharing this. I think this is also in Makara.doc AO: No. He had Makara Lagna and the Sani [saturn] was very bad.Rath:Why would saturn as Lagna Lord in the sixth be bad for one born in Makara Lagna? SD: Ashtama Sani [saturn transiting the 8th from the Ascendant]. Rath:Agreed. Kantaka is the result.AO: Loss of life. I said there would be loss of life. Some disciple of hisgot very angry. He said that Prabhupada is going to live for more than 100years. I said no.SD: You should write this down.AO: I remember it you know.SD: Please write this down it is important.AO: I said we don't go...One who is born, his body has to go some day. Sonow is the time for it to go. And he will travel. *He may have some urinaryproblems.* He will come back. He will die in a holy place. You see this inthe horoscope or not.Rath: Rather sad that Sriman Ojha has judged Srila so harshly. I cannot agree with the statement about rebirth of Srila, nor can I disagree with it. I shall refrain from making comments on this. [For readers: Rebirth or Moksha is a difficult question. Rebirth is seen from the 7th house and Moksha from the 12th house. If the 12th from karakamsa is very strong then Moksha shall occur and Ista Devata shall deliver whereas if the seventh is stronger, then the person shall re-incarnate. The place where the person shall re-incarnate is seen from the planets and signs in the seventh house from lagna. Rath:Place of death/ leaving the body is seen from the third sign from Arudha Lagna as has been expounded in the standard texts. For Makara lagna the AL is Scorpio and the third therefrom is Capricorn..not very holy place. For Dhanus Lagna the AL is Mesha and the third therefrom is Mithuna with Saturn in it with Digbala. Saturn in the third from AL indicates disease at the time and the cause of death. The age of 81/82 years is also ruled by saturn in its second natural cycle (refer to my Crux of Vedic astrology for natural yeras of planets).SD: Did I see that?AO: In the horoscope it indicates. Because he had Ketu in the 8th.Rath:Ketu in 8th house gives death in holy place, is this what Ojhaji meant??SD: Ketu with Jupiter and Sun in the 8th house.Rath: That is definitely a better argument Syama Prabhu.AO: Ketu with Jupiter in the 8th gives Moksha.Rath: Sorry, I cannot agree with this simplistic version. Parasara has clearly spelt out that from the atmakaraka we are to study "Bandana and Mukti" i.e. bondage or emancipation (from the cycle of rebirth). Secondly, Sriman Ojha has earlier mentioned about rebirth of Srila and now he gives a combination against his statement.SD: Yes.AO: Although Srila Prabhupada said he wants to come back. And pray andworship. The lord of the 8th. . .SD: Jupiter in the 8th like that. Sanketanidhi says that the person becomesa great devotee of Krsna.AO: Ketu and Jupiter.SD: Well Jupiter as 12th lord in the 8th house becomes a great devotee ofKrsna.AO: Other devotees I have seen [indistinct] have planets in the 8th house.It shows Bhaktimarga.Rath: Venus in the eighth is seen in the charts of many sanyasis and Sadhu's. Not Jupiter.__________________________>> > As regards predictions about a Great Rishi like Srila, this is forbidden> > in BPHS.>> Where does it say this? If this be so why did Garga do the chart of Krsna> and Balarama? More to the point why did Maharaja Yudhisthira request the> court astrologers to examine the horoscope of Parikshit? Being the hearer> of the Bhagavatam from Shukadeva Goswami surely Parikshit is as good as if> not better than any Rishi, still it was expected that his chart was to be> cast. I have never seen or heard of such a rule as you are suggesting.Sanjay:> Prabhuji, Parasara said that the sages have Divya Ayus and others may have> Amita ayus. Assuming this to be correct, what is the implication of this> statement? Are we in a position to make predictions about them and if so,> how would you do it when the Param ayus of Vimsottari is 120 years.Srila Prabhupada did not consider himself a Ciranjiva and was anticipatingdeath. Hence he consulted Ojha.Rath: That was the explanation for the principle of not predicting the death of Sanyasis and Sadhu's unless thay want to know the same for a personal reason, and then only to them. I think from your quote above, this was made privately to srila.> Secondly, when a person has taken Sanyas or has performed the last rites> of his body, then we are proibited to make a prediction about death again> about him.Where is this niyama stated? Or is is this just your understanding?Rath: What is Sanyas really? Is it not the perdormance of the Last ritual of the body? This is my understanding as for a person like me, the Jyotish is but a vedanga and is an integral, but subordinate part of the Hindu Dharma at large. I as a Jyotisha Guru accept a humbler position to the diksha Guru's and the teachers of Vedanta. Thus if the Sanyas as practised for centuries in Hinduism is centered around the renunciation with the performance of the last rites of the body, then the body is dead. I would not like to cross this Laxman rekha. As i told you, others do, and it is their view and way. >It is not that this cannot be done, but good Jyotisha should> refrain from this as the pesons sanyasa decision should be respected. His> death occured the day he took Sanyas and any bodily comfort is forbidden> thereafter including marriage etc.Sir you are not making sense. We understand, that Sannyasa as SP many timesexplained, is Civil death.Rath: Civil, in every sence of the word I must say. Afterall, the last rites are also performed. > If the question is made in private and> has a purpose then this should be made privately and kept private for the> very reasons that it was asked.Srila Prabhupada had it done publicly. Just as his leaving of the body waspublic and filmed.Rath: It is beyond me to explain the wish of Srila. Perhaps..was he preparing his followers about the ultimate reality? Perhaps wanting to make their suffering less. I wouldn't know. But one thing is certain. In my analysis of the Punya Chart (leaving of body), the natural configuration expected did not occur. as is there was element of self will.>> Thirdly, the comparision of being good, better or best is not the question> but one of being a sage. Further Horoscopes are not made by Hindu's only> for predictions. There are so many samskara associated with the Birth> chart and auspicious days are based on the chart. Prediction is only> secondary (Primary in Westernised parts of India like the cities). Thus> there is no prohibition to making the chart and using it for various> spiritual and religious purposes including placing it permanently at the> feet of Bhagavan for His constant Grace. I feel that Srila qualifies for> the definition of a sage, and would not like to make predictions, while> many others may do so. It is a question of ethics and preferences based on> ones understanding of the Great Parasara's words. That is why i keep> telling my students to keep reading the BPHS again and again till they> understand all the underlying meaning of those golden words.>> Shyama> With regards> Sanjay RathSrila Prabhupada asked to have his chart cast specifically with his healthand potential demise in mind. He also had it read out to him publicly.Rath: Was there any question about the truth behind Jyotish ar such things in the air those days? Srila may have done it to reaffirm the faith of millions on Jyotish. His life was devoted to reaffirmation of faith.If this is the case (no predictions to be made as matter of ethics) why thenare you asking Gauranga to check SP chart to see what is causing this debateto suddenly emerge? Do you recall recently asking him to do so as anexcercise? If not I can get the text.Rath: Not making predictions my friend, just doing post-mortem. You know the difference don't you.I have personally done the horoscope of scores of sannyasis and there isnothing wrong in doing the charts of ascetics and making predictions attheir request:Rath: Please try to avoid predicting their passing away. this will not be good for you."Even ascetics who have resorted to the forest and who are free fromattachement and family ties, consult an expert astrologer who can knowpeople fate through the movement of planets." Varaha Mihira, Brhat Samhita2.25 Ramkrishna Bhat translation.Rath: What do they consult the astrologer for has been explained in my notes earlier about Hinduism and its practises. sitting in the forest the true mendicant would have little desire toknow about when his new car would be obtained or when his web-site would get a facelift, unlike so many so called sadhus nowadays. The CONTEXT is important and so is the subject matter of what the jyotisha is being consulted for. The greatest sadhu's will use the services of a pure Jyotisha for determining the auspicious time for starting a Vrata, yagna etc, and the benefits or remedies necessary to ensure its proper completion. Frankly you have not answered any of my questions.Rath: Try listing them if any are leftJaya Radhe!Shyamasundara Dasawww.ShyamamasundaraDasa.comBest Wishes Sanjay Rath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 12, 2000 Report Share Posted December 12, 2000 JAYA JAGANNATHA! Dear Gurudeva, Pranaams. [For readers: Rebirth or Moksha is a difficult question. Rebirth is seen from the 7th house and Moksha from the 12th house. If the 12th from karakamsa is very strong then Moksha shall occur and Ista Devata shall deliver whereas if the seventh is stronger, then the person shall re-incarnate. The place where the person shall re-incarnate is seen from the planets and signs in the seventh house from lagna. Well, with both lagnas the 7th house is empty, and 12th from karakamsha is definitely stronger by having Moon and Sun there (indicating Rama and Krishna as Ishta-devata). Rath:Place of death/ leaving the body is seen from the third sign from Arudha Lagna as has been expounded in the standard texts. For Makara lagna the AL is Scorpio and the third therefrom is Capricorn..not very holy place. For Dhanus Lagna the AL is Mesha and the third therefrom is Mithuna with Saturn in it with Digbala. Saturn in the third from AL indicates disease at the time and the cause of death. The age of 81/82 years is also ruled by saturn in its second natural cycle (refer to my Crux of Vedic astrology for natural yeras of planets). I do not really understand that. I get Arudha Lagna in Aries with both Lagnas. I have another point of concern. So far the things that I tried to check in Srila Prabhupada's chart were mostly in favor of Sagittarius Lagna (although there's many more things to check), but I have seen the birth data for Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Maharaj, Srila Prabhupada's Guru, and tried to see the link between the two. Here is the chart of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati according to Shyamasundara Prabhu's data: Date of Birth: February 6, 1874Time of Birth: 3:40:00 pmTime Zone of Birth: 5:21 East of GMTLongitude of Birth: 85 E 52Latitude of Birth: 19 N 48Lunar month (maasa): Magha Lunar day (tithi): Krishna PanchamiTithi balance: 0.4597Nakshatra balance: 0.2568Sun-Moon Yoga: DhritiSun-Moon Karana: TaitulaVara (weekday): Friday Sunrise = 6:12 am (Apparent rise - upper limb)Ayanamsa = 22-05-46Dasa year length chosen = 365.2425 days Planet Position Pada CharaK Ascdt 1 Cn 11 Punarvasu 4 - Sun 25 Cp 25 Dhanishtha 1 AmKMoon 19 Vi 54 Hastha 3 MKMars 5 Pi 44 U.Bhaa. 1 DKMercury 27 Cp 33 Dhanishtha 2 AKJupiter ® 9 Vi 00 U.Pha. 4 GKVenus 21 Cp 15 Sravanam 4 BKSaturn 14 Cp 25 Sravanam 2 PiKRahu 17 Ar 58 Bharani 2 PKKetu 17 Li 58 Swathi 4 - BhavaLg 16 Ge 57 Aardra 4 - HoraLg 8 Sc 54 Anuradha 2 - GhatiLg 14 Cp 42 Sravanam 2 - Dhooma 8 Ge 45 Aardra 1 - Vyati 21 Cp 14 Sravanam 4 - Pari 21 Cn 14 Aasresha 2 - I.Chapa 8 Sg 45 Moola 3 - Upaketu 25 Sg 25 Poo.Shaa. 4 - Kaala 13 Ar 48 Bharani 1 - Mrityu 28 Ta 49 Mrigasira 2 - ArthaPr 18 Ge 22 Aardra 4 - YamaGha 7 Cn 18 Pushyami 2 - Mandi 3 Pi 34 U.Bhaa. 1 - Gulika 19 Aq 56 Satabhisham 4 - +----------------------+| | | | || Mnd | | | || | Rah | | BL || Mar | | | || | | | ||-------------|---------------------------|-------------|| | | || | | || Glk | | Asc || | | || | | ||-------------| R A S I |-------------|| Sat GL | | || | | || Ven | | || | | || Sun Mer | | ||-------------|---------------------------|-------------|| | | | || | | | JupR || | HL | Ket | || | | | Moo || | | | |+----------------------+ +----------------------+| | | | || BL JupR | | Sat | || | | | Moo || Ket Glk | | GL | || | | | ||-------------|---------------------------|-------------|| | | || | | Asc || | | || | | Ven || | | ||-------------| N A V A M S A |-------------|| | | Sun || | | || | | Mnd || | | || | | Mar ||-------------|---------------------------|-------------|| | | | Rah || | | | || | | | HL || | | | || | | | Mer |+----------------------+ Here Cancer Lagna is said to be taken by Srila Saraswati himself, who was a great astronomer as well. So I think it should not be argued upon. Also he has a very nice Pravrajya yoga in the 7th, and he did not marry all his life. So I think that this can be accepted. Now his shishyapada also falls into Cancer, while Moon conjoins Jupiter in Virgo. So according to Rath's rule, most of his shishyas would have lagnas in watery signs or in Capricorn. According to this, Capricorn lagna is indeed more suitable for Srila Prabhupada, as a great disciple of Srila Saraswati. Isn't it? If we take Sagittairus, then we may find only the following sambandha: lord of A5 Moon conjoins Jupiter and both aspect Sagittarius. But the two lagnas being sisthastama would not bring such a good personal relationship, would they? Now from Srila Prabhupada's chart, if we take Sagittairus Lagna, Arudha of the 9th house (Gurupada) is in Taurus. It has exalted Moon and aspects Cancer also, but is not in trines from it. It is opposite Srila Saraswati's Arudha Lagna. Now with Capricorn Lagna, A9 is in Gemini, and it is aspected by its lord exalted Mercury from Virgo. Although this is also not in trines to Cancer, Mercury is in Virgo where Srila Saraswati's Paka Lagna is. So some relationship is there, but it's definitely stronger with Sagittarius. So this seems a bit contradictory, as from Srila Saraswati's chart Capricorn is more likely, while from Srila Prabhupada's Sagittarius gives stronger relationship. Of course we may concede that Srila Saraswati had 10 000m shishyas, and probably there are some with other Lagnas than Jala Rasis+Capricorn, and it si more important to see the strong Sambandha from Srila Prabhupada's chart, which is better with Sagittairus lagna. Anyway, it's curious. Maybe someone knows what was Srila Prabhupada's Ayurvedic constitution? If any kavirajas have seen Him at the time, maybe they reported His Dosha constitution? This could help to confirn the Lagna and Paaka Lagna. Your shishya, Gauranga Das Vedic Astrologer <gauranga Phone:+36-309-140-839 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2000 Report Share Posted December 14, 2000 Dear Gauranga, Om Krsna Guru. >Of course we may concede that Srila Saraswati had 10 000m shishyas, and >probably there are some with other Lagnas than Jala Rasis+Capricorn, and it >si more important to see the strong Sambandha from Srila Prabhupada's >chart, which is better with Sagittairus lagna. Yes, the lagna's are in 6/8 with Sagittarius, but that isn't so bad for the relationship between guru and disciple. I'm sure a lot of disciples have this with their guru. And we should also take into consideration that Srila Prabhupada met his guru only a handful of times. Your servant, Dhira Krsna dasa Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2000 Report Share Posted December 16, 2000 Om Gurave Namah Dear Syamasundara Prabhu, That was a fine letter and I shall add a few comments under:- > > My understanding of the medical treatment that Srila Prabhupada had > regarding the urinary problem was that it had to do with a stricture in the > lower part of the urethra in the Linga which was removed by a catheter > passed through the urethra in the linga and some other treatment. There was > no surgery to the kidneys or bladder. Just a catheter pushed up the urethra > (ouch!) this was sufficient to restore the flow of urine. This type of > blockage is different from the typical type of kidney failure associated > with oldage. But perhaps Hari Sauri Prabhu can provide further details. Rath: Linga will indicate seventh house and definitely Venus should be involved. As such Venus is debilitated and can cause Urinary problems and troubles related to the Linga, especially if malefic. This is better shown by Dhanus Lagna with Venus as the sixth Lord and dire malefic than as a Yogakaraka for Makara Lagna. Let us analyse the problem. If jupiter were to give a problem, then it will be expansive like Cancer or some other malefic expansion whereas if the problem is caused by Saturn, then it can be constrictive or that which is restrictive, causing blockages etc. As you say Saturn is in a Venusian sign and can thereby afflict Venus and being in Libra can give blockages. As the Lord of Lagna, it cannot be malefic whereas as the lord of the 2nd house it can influence Venus in the negative. Thus we find constrictive influence coming on venus and the placement of saturn and venus can indicate the disease. In addition, Venus is also the dispositor of the eighth Lord Moon and shows that the blockage can be to the movement of the watery (Moon) cleansing system. If the Sun were to indicate the disease then it can cause some heat related problems and with Jupiter this can be expansive as I indicated earlier. The type of problem as you say seems to be a clear Venusian affliction which is evident in the chart. > > Sun has nothing to do with the Urinary system nor has Jupiter anything to > > do with this. SD Wrote: > As 8th Lord it rules Linga from which the urine passes through, and Jupiter > is there as well. Rath: We differ here. I take the Linga in the seventh house whereas the Sacs/Scrotum and the Anus etc in the eighth house. In any case the disease/ problem that you indicate is restrictive, very saturnine and not Jupiterian (expansive). In such a position some kind of a cancer of the parts or some spinal problems should have been indicated by the planetary position especially when Ketu rules the Mooladhara and the Sun rules the spine. How was Srila's spine? Did he have any spinal problems? If not, then it will be a bit difficult to accept that these planets caused the disease instead of the Moon (Eighth Lord), Saturn (Constrictive/ Blockage master- 2nd Maraka Lord) and Venus the debilitated dispositor or both these planets. SD Wrote: > Referring to how a [planet can give both good and bad effects. This is from > my course JY102 lesson 7. In this example Mars is seen in complete isolation > (in fact no other planets are shown) in the 5th for Leo rising he is thus > the yoga-karaka: > > " TIP: When a natural malefic like Mars becomes benefic by lordship he will > specifically bring greatness to the person in terms of career, reputation, > finances, education, learning, etc. Any harm that accrues is to the external > käraka of the house relating to relations or physical body. In this case > Mars may harm, to a much lesser degree; children and stomach (5th); > longevity and genitals (8th); older brothers, left ear, and calves (11th); > left eye and feet (12th). Rath: Kindly quote the source of this wisdom. We shall be grateful. In case this is your own experience, kindly let us know. To my mind, there are many aspects to the issue of the placement of Mars in Dhanus for Simha Lagna. There is the placement in the fifth house where as the Lord of the fourth, it can give results pertaining to the 2nd (being 2nd from 4th house) and 12th houses (4th house is 12th from it). being the Lord of Aries, it can give results pertaining to the 5th and ninth houses as well. Details from crux of Vedic astrology please. Now, coming to the placement of Mars, this is a hot planet having Agni tatwa predominant and its placement in sagittarius will not harm that house. Instead it could have been harmful in other houses. Unless afflicted by saturn, in such a placement Mars shall not deny children. I feel that the words like " Career, reputation " have been used by your goodself in a more sort of generalised fashion. Its direct impact on the tenth house does not seem to be visible in such a placement. however, it shall aspect the 8th house Pisces and this being a sign of its great freind Jupiter can be beneficial for the sign. It shall give good health and quick recovery from diseases. Surgery shall not be dangerous for life. As regards education, learning etc, this is good as the Lord of Vidya (4th House) it is stationed in the house of gyana i.e. all that the native learns he shall also try to digest. I cannot see how Mars will afflict the stomach as the fifth house is freindly to it. Of course the conjunction of a Saturn can completely change the story. The aspect of Mars on gemini is not good and this is definitely harmful for this house. treating this house as the Lagna of elder brother, we cna say that this will be bad for his marriage and that he may have a love marriage. it is also in Marana Karaka position for elder brother. Its aspect on a Mercurial sign in the 11th is also not good for skin related matters, ears and especially nose if Mercury is in any manner related to the 12th house. The calves will not be affected as sagittarius is freindly to Mars and then its aspect on Gemini can be bad for the ears....finishing comments here. This is not necessary in our discussions as we are teaching each other. > > Yavana Jataka is a very challenging work indeed. While I can agree with > > the latter part of the reading that the conjunction of Ketu with the > > eighth house can cause diseases of semen (due to its affliction of the > > sacs/semen creating organs), the reading about Urinary infection is taken > > with a pinch of salt. Yes, if the sage refers to a disease like > > spermatorrhea where the semen flows out with the urine, then it is > > acceptable. > > > > But if it actually an obstruction of the urethra passage either in the linga > or near the prostate then it is definitely 8th house. If it is high up in > the bladder or kidney then I would agree with you. But as I said, my > understanding from reading the reports of Abhirama who addmited Srila > Prabhupada to the hospital in the UK was that it was an obstruction in the > lower Urethra and the blockage was cleared up via a catheter inserted from > outside into the linga. No cutting was done. Sounds like a typical blockage > of the urethra caused by enlarged prostate gland. Rath: Now Syamasundara Prabhu, you say lower Urethra..where exactly is this? Is the scrotum affected? I still think that this is the Moon, venus, Saturn related problem. Anyway, this is not going to help as the question of passing away is one area which has always been debated heavily on as the various methods of longevity given in BPHS have not been good excepting for the stanza's Parasara gives about the three lords etc. > > AO: I said we don't go...One who is born, his body has to go some day. So > > now is the time for it to go. And he will travel. *He may have some > > urinary problems.* He will come back. He will die in a holy place. You see > > this in the horoscope or not. > > > Rath: Rather sad that Sriman Ojha has judged Srila so harshly. I cannot > > agree with the statement about rebirth of Srila, nor can I disagree with > > it. I shall refrain from making comments on this. > > You have misread this text. Please reread it. > > He will come back from his travels, not rebirth. First he said " he will > travel " Srila Prabhupada went to UK, then he he said " he will come back " > then he came back to India and left in Vrndavana. That is what he is > referring to. Rath: Thank you for the clarification about the meaning of Sriman Ojha's words. Now it is clear. > > > > [For readers: Rebirth or Moksha is a difficult question. Rebirth is seen > > from the 7th house and Moksha from the 12th house. If the 12th from > > karakamsa is very strong then Moksha shall occur and Ista Devata shall > > deliver whereas if the seventh is stronger, then the person shall > > re-incarnate. The place where the person shall re-incarnate is seen from > > the planets and signs in the seventh house from lagna. > > > > Rath:Place of death/ leaving the body is seen from the third sign from > > Arudha Lagna as has been expounded in the standard texts. For Makara lagna > > the AL is Scorpio and the third therefrom is Capricorn..not very holy > > place. For Dhanus Lagna the AL is Mesha and the third therefrom is Mithuna > > > with Saturn in it with Digbala. Saturn in the third from AL indicates > > Saturn is in Libra not Mithuna. Rath: Thank you for this point. I had wondered as to how a Saturn can indicate a Holy place and the argument between Gemini and Capricorn was really not very convincing. Now it is clear. Gemini is a Beneficial sign and also Badhak from Lagna. > > > disease at the time and the cause of death. The age of 81/82 years is also > > ruled by saturn in its second natural cycle (refer to my Crux of Vedic > > astrology for natural yeras of planets). > > First you have misunderstood what he said. > > Second it can also be seen from 8th house itself and 22nd Drekkana and other > methods, not just the ones that you have mentioned. BV Raman has outlined > several methods in How To Judge a Horoscope vol 2. Rath: Kindly give a few to time the period of passing away. This is an important event. > > > AO: Ketu with Jupiter in the 8th gives Moksha. > > > Rath: Sorry, I cannot agree with this simplistic version. Parasara has > > clearly spelt out that from the atmakaraka we are to study " Bandana and > > Mukti " i.e. bondage or emancipation (from the cycle of rebirth). > > Secondly, Sriman Ojha has earlier mentioned about rebirth of Srila and now > > he gives a combination against his statement. > > You prefer the simplistic version that Jupiter in the 8th is Asura yoga. (; > > No, you misunderstood, he did not say rebirth, he meant return from UK. Rath: Agreed about that explanation you give regarding the mening of Sri Ojha's words, but Prabhuji, the question of Moksha (in whatever Vaishnava manner) is far too serious to be determined from the eighth house. In fact Moksha or the life after death is seen from the 12th house and not the 8th house. For Makara Lagna, the placement of Jupiter as 12th Lord in 8th giving Moksha against an exalted Seventh Lord Moon with Mars causing re-birth?? Well, why will the aspect of saturn on the 12th house not be deterministic in this matter instead of the 12th lord placement? For any bhava, we must see the aspects and placements in it as well. > > SD: Well Jupiter as 12th lord in the 8th house becomes a great devotee of > > Krsna. > > AO: Other devotees I have seen [indistinct] have planets in the 8th house. > > It shows Bhaktimarga. Rath: Parasara teaches that the devotion and Upasana are to be examined from the Vimsamsa (D-20 Chart) and that the bhakti Marga is to be studied from the fifth house which is also the house of love and affection besides devotion. Parasara also teaches that among the Navagraha, the MOON represents Sri Krishna. In the horoscope of srila Prabhupada, we have the fifth Lord conjoining the Moon in the Rasi chart. In addition, the Moon is also in the fifth house in the Vimsamsa (D-20 Chart) along with the Lagna Lord saturn. Lagnesh in the fifth shows Bhakti Marga and with the Moon, this clearly defines Sri Krishna. > > Rath: Venus in the eighth is seen in the charts of many sanyasis and > > Sadhu's. Not Jupiter. > > He has seen the charts of MANY devotees over the years mnay of these > devotees had *planets* in the 8th he did not say Jupiter only, though > Jupiter is a planet. And, I can confirm his statement by providing you with > dozens of charts of devotees (with their permission of course) who have > *planets* in the 8th several of them having the planet Jupiter in the 8th. Rath: Prabhuji, these people must be the ones who have reformed, perhaps due to the placement of the Moon in the trines to Vimsamsa Lagna or influencing such a house. Now, we are at a juncture whether to accept a view of the tradition represented by persons like Dr. Raman (and my self in this generation) or of that of Sri Ojha and others in regard to the Asura Yoga. Dr raman has spoken very badly about this Yoga in the chart of Benito Mussolini and I am inclined to agree with him. Let us leave it here as when we are going to differ in fundamentals then our vision is bound to be different. It is good that the best of scholars shall debate this chart for many days to come and in doing so, shall get closer to Bhagavan. Thank you very much for engaging me in such a fine discussion. At your service, Sanjay Rath Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2000 Report Share Posted December 20, 2000 Dear Gurudeva, Pranaams. > Jaya Jagannath > Dear Gauranga, > > Comments are given below:- > You wrote: > > GD: I have another point of concern. So far the things that I tried to check > in Srila Prabhupada's chart were mostly in favor of Sagittarius Lagna > (although there's many more things to check), but I have seen the birth data > for Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Maharaj, Srila Prabhupada's Guru, and > tried to see the link between the two. Here is the chart of Srila > Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati according to Shyamasundara Prabhu's data: > > > Date of Birth: February 6, 1874 > Time of Birth: 3:40:00 pm > Time Zone of Birth: 5:21 East of GMT > Longitude of Birth: 85 E 52 > Latitude of Birth: 19 N 48 > Lunar month (maasa): Magha > Lunar day (tithi): Krishna Panchami > Tithi balance: 0.4597 > Nakshatra balance: 0.2568 > Sun-Moon Yoga: Dhriti > Sun-Moon Karana: Taitula > Vara (weekday): Friday > > Sunrise = 6:12 am (Apparent rise - upper limb) > Ayanamsa = 22-05-46 > Dasa year length chosen = 365.2425 days > > Planet Position Pada CharaK > > Ascdt 1 Cn 11 Punarvasu 4 - > Sun 25 Cp 25 Dhanishtha 1 AmK > Moon 19 Vi 54 Hastha 3 MK > Mars 5 Pi 44 U.Bhaa. 1 DK > Mercury 27 Cp 33 Dhanishtha 2 AK > Jupiter ® 9 Vi 00 U.Pha. 4 GK > Venus 21 Cp 15 Sravanam 4 BK > Saturn 14 Cp 25 Sravanam 2 PiK > Rahu 17 Ar 58 Bharani 2 PK > Ketu 17 Li 58 Swathi 4 - > BhavaLg 16 Ge 57 Aardra 4 - > HoraLg 8 Sc 54 Anuradha 2 - > GhatiLg 14 Cp 42 Sravanam 2 - > Dhooma 8 Ge 45 Aardra 1 - > Vyati 21 Cp 14 Sravanam 4 - > Pari 21 Cn 14 Aasresha 2 - > I.Chapa 8 Sg 45 Moola 3 - > Upaketu 25 Sg 25 Poo.Shaa. 4 - > Kaala 13 Ar 48 Bharani 1 - > Mrityu 28 Ta 49 Mrigasira 2 - > ArthaPr 18 Ge 22 Aardra 4 - > YamaGha 7 Cn 18 Pushyami 2 - > Mandi 3 Pi 34 U.Bhaa. 1 - > Gulika 19 Aq 56 Satabhisham 4 - > > > +----------------------+ > | | | | | > | Mnd | | | | > | | Rah | | BL | > | Mar | | | | > | | | | | > |-------------|---------------------------|-------------| > | | | | > | | | | > | Glk | | Asc | > | | | | > | | | | > |-------------| R A S I |-------------| > | Sat GL | | | > | | | | > | Ven | | | > | | | | > | Sun Mer | | | > |-------------|---------------------------|-------------| > | | | | | > | | | | JupR | > | | HL | Ket | | > | | | | Moo | > | | | | | > +----------------------+ > > +----------------------+ > | | | | | > | BL JupR | | Sat | | > | | | | Moo | > | Ket Glk | | GL | | > | | | | | > |-------------|---------------------------|-------------| > | | | | > | | | Asc | > | | | | > | | | Ven | > | | | | > |-------------| N A V A M S A |-------------| > | | | Sun | > | | | | > | | | Mnd | > | | | | > | | | Mar | > |-------------|---------------------------|-------------| > | | | | Rah | > | | | | | > | | | | HL | > | | | | | > | | | | Mer | > +----------------------+ > > GD:Here Cancer Lagna is said to be taken by Srila Saraswati himself, who was > a great astronomer as well. So I think it should not be argued upon. Also he > has a very nice Pravrajya yoga in the 7th, and he did not marry all his > life. So I think that this can be accepted. > > RATH: THIS IS A PURE VAISNAVA CHART AS THE GURU MANGALA YOGA IS VERY STRONG > INVOLVING LAGNA LORD AND IT ALSO GENERATES THE POWERFUL DHARMAKARMADHIPATI > YOGA. > > GD: Now his shishyapada also falls into Cancer, while Moon conjoins Jupiter > in Virgo.So according to Rath's rule, most of his shishyas would have lagnas > in watery signs or in Capricorn. According to this, Capricorn lagna is > indeed more suitable for Srila Prabhupada, as a great disciple of Srila > Saraswati. Isn't it? If we take Sagittairus, then we may find only the > following sambandha: lord of A5 Moon conjoins Jupiter and both aspect > Sagittarius. But the two lagnas being sisthastama would not bring such a > good personal relationship, would they? > > RATHS RULE YOU QUOTE IS FOR UPAPADA. WIFE IS SEEN FROM THE 7TH HOUSE AND WE > DO NOT USE DARAPADA FOR THE LAGNA OF SPOUSE. MY FIFTH LORD IS THE MOON AND > THE SARADA YOGA IT CAUSES IS WITH MERCURY IN VARGOTTAMA. SO MANY OF MY SISYA > COME FROM MERCURY'S LAGNA. THESE SISYA BORN IN MERCURY'S LAGNA WILL PLAY A > VERY IMPORTANT ROLE IN DISTRIBUTING THE VITAL KNOWLEDGE OF JYOTISH LIKE > DOING THE WORK OF SHARADA/ SARASWATI MATA. THERE IS MORE TO THIS. IN THE > CASE OF BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASWATI, FIFTH LORD MARS IS ASPECTED BY JUPITER IN > DHARMAKARMADHIPATI YOGA. SO, HIS SISYA BORN IN JUPITERS LAGNA WILL PLAY A > VERY VITAL ROLE IN ESTABLISHING DHARMA IN THE WORLD. > > GD: Now from Srila Prabhupada's chart, if we take Sagittairus Lagna, Arudha > of the 9th house (Gurupada) is in Taurus. It has exalted Moon and aspects > Cancer also, but is not in trines from it. It is opposite Srila Saraswati's > Arudha Lagna. > RATH: PLANET ALSO CAN BE DETERMINISTIC. FURTHER THE FATHER IS SEEN FROM THE > NINTH FROM SUN AS GURU IS SEEN FROM THE NINTH FROM JUPITER. HERE MARS IS THE > PLANET THAT SHALL BRING GURU AND THIS IS CONJOINED THE EXALTED MOON. THIS IS > TRUE FOR BOTH LAGNA AND WILL NOT HELP. RASI HAS TO DO WITH BODY AND FATHER > IS THE FIRST GURU HERE. > > Now with Capricorn Lagna, A9 is in Gemini, and it is aspected by its lord > exalted Mercury from Virgo. Although this is also not in trines to Cancer, > Mercury is in Virgo where Srila Saraswati's Paka Lagna is. So some > relationship is there, but it's definitely stronger with Sagittarius. So > this seems a bit contradictory, as from Srila Saraswati's chart Capricorn is > more likely, while from Srila Prabhupada's Sagittarius gives stronger > relationship. > RATH AS EXPLAINED ABOVE. > > Of course we may concede that Srila Saraswati had 10 000m shishyas, and > probably there are some with other Lagnas than Jala Rasis+Capricorn, and it > si more important to see the strong Sambandha from Srila Prabhupada's chart, > which is better with Sagittairus lagna. > RATH: EXPLAINED EARLIER. SRILA PRABHUPADA WAS THAT JUPITER WHO WOULD FULFILL > HIS WISH OF ESTABLISHING DHARMA (JUP-9TH LORD) IN THE WORLD DKY WITH LAGNA > LORD MOON AS WELL AS GURU-MANGALA AND GAJAKESARI YOGA'S...FANTASTIC. > > Anyway, it's curious. Maybe someone knows what was Srila Prabhupada's > Ayurvedic constitution? If any kavirajas have seen Him at the time, maybe > they reported His Dosha constitution? This could help to confirn the Lagna > and Paaka Lagna. > RATH: IT IS DHANUS. THE FIRE OF TRUTH POWER (OM TAT SAT) LED HIM TO CURE SO > MANY ADDICTS ETC. I DRAW A PARELLEL BETWEEN VIVEKANANDA AND SRILA IN THIS > MATTER AS THEY BOTH PROVED TO BE THE BEST DISCIPLES OF THEIR GURU'S. > FORTUNATE ARE SUCH GURU'S WHO HAVE THE BLESSINGS OF BRIHASPATI TO HAVE SUCH > ARDENT DISCIPLES IN DHANUS LAGNA. WHO ELSE BUT BRIHASPATI COULD HAVE > ACHIEVED THIS HERCULEAN FEAT? Thank you for the comments. I will incorporate these notes in my reading. Your shishya, Gauranga das Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 20, 2000 Report Share Posted December 20, 2000 Jaya Jagannath Dear Gauranga, Comments are given below:- You wrote: GD: I have another point of concern. So far the things that I tried to check in Srila Prabhupada's chart were mostly in favor of Sagittarius Lagna (although there's many more things to check), but I have seen the birth data for Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati Maharaj, Srila Prabhupada's Guru, and tried to see the link between the two. Here is the chart of Srila Bhaktisiddhanta Saraswati according to Shyamasundara Prabhu's data: Date of Birth: February 6, 1874 Time of Birth: 3:40:00 pm Time Zone of Birth: 5:21 East of GMT Longitude of Birth: 85 E 52 Latitude of Birth: 19 N 48 Lunar month (maasa): Magha Lunar day (tithi): Krishna Panchami Tithi balance: 0.4597 Nakshatra balance: 0.2568 Sun-Moon Yoga: Dhriti Sun-Moon Karana: Taitula Vara (weekday): Friday Sunrise = 6:12 am (Apparent rise - upper limb) Ayanamsa = 22-05-46 Dasa year length chosen = 365.2425 days Planet Position Pada CharaK Ascdt 1 Cn 11 Punarvasu 4 - Sun 25 Cp 25 Dhanishtha 1 AmK Moon 19 Vi 54 Hastha 3 MK Mars 5 Pi 44 U.Bhaa. 1 DK Mercury 27 Cp 33 Dhanishtha 2 AK Jupiter ® 9 Vi 00 U.Pha. 4 GK Venus 21 Cp 15 Sravanam 4 BK Saturn 14 Cp 25 Sravanam 2 PiK Rahu 17 Ar 58 Bharani 2 PK Ketu 17 Li 58 Swathi 4 - BhavaLg 16 Ge 57 Aardra 4 - HoraLg 8 Sc 54 Anuradha 2 - GhatiLg 14 Cp 42 Sravanam 2 - Dhooma 8 Ge 45 Aardra 1 - Vyati 21 Cp 14 Sravanam 4 - Pari 21 Cn 14 Aasresha 2 - I.Chapa 8 Sg 45 Moola 3 - Upaketu 25 Sg 25 Poo.Shaa. 4 - Kaala 13 Ar 48 Bharani 1 - Mrityu 28 Ta 49 Mrigasira 2 - ArthaPr 18 Ge 22 Aardra 4 - YamaGha 7 Cn 18 Pushyami 2 - Mandi 3 Pi 34 U.Bhaa. 1 - Gulika 19 Aq 56 Satabhisham 4 - +----------------------+ | | | | | | Mnd | | | | | | Rah | | BL | | Mar | | | | | | | | | |-------------|---------------------------|-------------| | | | | | | | | | Glk | | Asc | | | | | | | | | |-------------| R A S I |-------------| | Sat GL | | | | | | | | Ven | | | | | | | | Sun Mer | | | |-------------|---------------------------|-------------| | | | | | | | | | JupR | | | HL | Ket | | | | | | Moo | | | | | | +----------------------+ +----------------------+ | | | | | | BL JupR | | Sat | | | | | | Moo | | Ket Glk | | GL | | | | | | | |-------------|---------------------------|-------------| | | | | | | | Asc | | | | | | | | Ven | | | | | |-------------| N A V A M S A |-------------| | | | Sun | | | | | | | | Mnd | | | | | | | | Mar | |-------------|---------------------------|-------------| | | | | Rah | | | | | | | | | | HL | | | | | | | | | | Mer | +----------------------+ GD:Here Cancer Lagna is said to be taken by Srila Saraswati himself, who was a great astronomer as well. So I think it should not be argued upon. Also he has a very nice Pravrajya yoga in the 7th, and he did not marry all his life. So I think that this can be accepted. RATH: THIS IS A PURE VAISNAVA CHART AS THE GURU MANGALA YOGA IS VERY STRONG INVOLVING LAGNA LORD AND IT ALSO GENERATES THE POWERFUL DHARMAKARMADHIPATI YOGA. GD: Now his shishyapada also falls into Cancer, while Moon conjoins Jupiter in Virgo.So according to Rath's rule, most of his shishyas would have lagnas in watery signs or in Capricorn. According to this, Capricorn lagna is indeed more suitable for Srila Prabhupada, as a great disciple of Srila Saraswati. Isn't it? If we take Sagittairus, then we may find only the following sambandha: lord of A5 Moon conjoins Jupiter and both aspect Sagittarius. But the two lagnas being sisthastama would not bring such a good personal relationship, would they? RATHS RULE YOU QUOTE IS FOR UPAPADA. WIFE IS SEEN FROM THE 7TH HOUSE AND WE DO NOT USE DARAPADA FOR THE LAGNA OF SPOUSE. MY FIFTH LORD IS THE MOON AND THE SARADA YOGA IT CAUSES IS WITH MERCURY IN VARGOTTAMA. SO MANY OF MY SISYA COME FROM MERCURY'S LAGNA. THESE SISYA BORN IN MERCURY'S LAGNA WILL PLAY A VERY IMPORTANT ROLE IN DISTRIBUTING THE VITAL KNOWLEDGE OF JYOTISH LIKE DOING THE WORK OF SHARADA/ SARASWATI MATA. THERE IS MORE TO THIS. IN THE CASE OF BHAKTISIDDHANTA SARASWATI, FIFTH LORD MARS IS ASPECTED BY JUPITER IN DHARMAKARMADHIPATI YOGA. SO, HIS SISYA BORN IN JUPITERS LAGNA WILL PLAY A VERY VITAL ROLE IN ESTABLISHING DHARMA IN THE WORLD. GD: Now from Srila Prabhupada's chart, if we take Sagittairus Lagna, Arudha of the 9th house (Gurupada) is in Taurus. It has exalted Moon and aspects Cancer also, but is not in trines from it. It is opposite Srila Saraswati's Arudha Lagna. RATH: PLANET ALSO CAN BE DETERMINISTIC. FURTHER THE FATHER IS SEEN FROM THE NINTH FROM SUN AS GURU IS SEEN FROM THE NINTH FROM JUPITER. HERE MARS IS THE PLANET THAT SHALL BRING GURU AND THIS IS CONJOINED THE EXALTED MOON. THIS IS TRUE FOR BOTH LAGNA AND WILL NOT HELP. RASI HAS TO DO WITH BODY AND FATHER IS THE FIRST GURU HERE. Now with Capricorn Lagna, A9 is in Gemini, and it is aspected by its lord exalted Mercury from Virgo. Although this is also not in trines to Cancer, Mercury is in Virgo where Srila Saraswati's Paka Lagna is. So some relationship is there, but it's definitely stronger with Sagittarius. So this seems a bit contradictory, as from Srila Saraswati's chart Capricorn is more likely, while from Srila Prabhupada's Sagittarius gives stronger relationship. RATH AS EXPLAINED ABOVE. Of course we may concede that Srila Saraswati had 10 000m shishyas, and probably there are some with other Lagnas than Jala Rasis+Capricorn, and it si more important to see the strong Sambandha from Srila Prabhupada's chart, which is better with Sagittairus lagna. RATH: EXPLAINED EARLIER. SRILA PRABHUPADA WAS THAT JUPITER WHO WOULD FULFILL HIS WISH OF ESTABLISHING DHARMA (JUP-9TH LORD) IN THE WORLD DKY WITH LAGNA LORD MOON AS WELL AS GURU-MANGALA AND GAJAKESARI YOGA'S...FANTASTIC. Anyway, it's curious. Maybe someone knows what was Srila Prabhupada's Ayurvedic constitution? If any kavirajas have seen Him at the time, maybe they reported His Dosha constitution? This could help to confirn the Lagna and Paaka Lagna. RATH: IT IS DHANUS. THE FIRE OF TRUTH POWER (OM TAT SAT) LED HIM TO CURE SO MANY ADDICTS ETC. I DRAW A PARELLEL BETWEEN VIVEKANANDA AND SRILA IN THIS MATTER AS THEY BOTH PROVED TO BE THE BEST DISCIPLES OF THEIR GURU'S. FORTUNATE ARE SUCH GURU'S WHO HAVE THE BLESSINGS OF BRIHASPATI TO HAVE SUCH ARDENT DISCIPLES IN DHANUS LAGNA. WHO ELSE BUT BRIHASPATI COULD HAVE ACHIEVED THIS HERCULEAN FEAT? BEST WISHES SANJAY RATH Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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