Guest guest Posted December 14, 2000 Report Share Posted December 14, 2000 Jaya Jaya Jagannatha Namaste Shyamasundara Prabhu, Thank you for your kind reply. Before I proceed, I want to clarify that I do not want to (and did not) " minimize " Vimsottari dasa. In my previous mail, I mentioned it as one of the three general purpose phalita dasas that stand out. I only want to counter *your* minimization of other dasas. I see that you heavily rely on incompetent commentaries that are not at all faithful translations. I will make some relevant points below. > I have four editions of BPHS, three in English, one in Sanskrit-Hindi, in > this text I shall refer to the two most well known English translations > those of G.C. Sharma (Sagar edition) and the other by G. S. Kapoor (did the > > These two translations are in keeping with the spirit of the dictionary > indicating that Vimshottari Mahadasha is the supreme mahadasha. Not just > " important " as you have stated. There is a big difference between what you > said and the actual dictionary meaning of the word as understood by > competent translators and readers of dictionaries. I do concede that " important " was a weak translation of " mukhyaa " . I should have said " a particularly important " or " eminent " . Two points here: (1) The word mukhya was used in literature in various degrees. " Mukhyaa " is still not " the best " . If that is what it means, then expressions like " atimukhya " also found in Sanskrit literature do not make any sense (ati = excessively). (2) For argument's sake, let us assume that mukhya means " the best " . Now, did Parasara say that Vimsottari was " the best " among *all* dasas or among all *Udu* dasas? It is not clear at all. Parasara talked about all the nakshatra dasas ( " nakshatraadhaarikaah " ) in one group and the rest as another group. Whether Parasara talked about Vimsottari dasa's place among nakshatra dasas or all dasas is not clear at all. In the case of Kalachakra dasa, he used the expression " sarva dasaasu " , which clearly means " among *all* dasas " . Sarva = all. In 46-3 to 46-5, he said " there are several kinds of dasas. Vimsottari is considered (by whom?) particularly important; Ashtottari by some; Shodasottari by some; .... ; all these dasas based on nakshatras were said by earlier savants " . So a plausible case can be made to say that Parasara was comparing Vimsottari dasa only to other nakshatra dasas. In addition, the opinion in 46-3 is not necessarily Parasara's. However, in 46-14 again says that Vimsottari is pre-eminently important and this time it is clearly the opinion of the Sage. But, again it is unclear with which dasas it is being compared - all dasas or only nakshatra dasas. The sage made the pool of comparison clear only for Kalachakra dasa. > Let us move now to your second assertion. You have stated: " kaalachakra > dasaa chaanyaa maanyaa sarvadasaasu yaa " which according to you means > " there > is another dasa called Kalachakra dasa which the most respectable of ALL > dasas. " This is true but you neglected to tell us whose opinion this is. Is > it Parasara's opinion or some one else's? It turns out that it is not > Parasara's opinion at all but that of others. The antecedent half sloka > that > you did not give us tells us something very different. Here is how Sharma Not at all. You may think so if you completely rely on incompetent and incomplete commentaries. The first line of the sloka that I omitted does not change the meaning at all. The sloka is: " atha kaala dasaa chakra dasaa proktaa muneeswaraih kaala chakra dasaa chaanyaa maanyaa sarva dasaasu yaa " It literally means " thus Kala dasa and Chakra dasa were well-mentioned by great Sages. There is another dasa called Kalachakra dasa, which is the [most] respectable dasa among *all*dasas " . (1) The use of the word " sarva " (all) makes it abundantly clear that Kalachakra dasa is not being compared to Kala dasa or Chakra dasa or a small set of dasas. Its position among *all * (sarva) dasas is being judged. (2) Attributing this opinion to other " great sages " (as Kapoor apparently does based on your quote below) is completely wrong too. " Prokta " (well-mentioned) in the first line is the past participle form (like " mataa " in 46-3) and so it applies to " by great Sages " . But the second part of the sloka does not use any past participles. It uses the word " maanyaah " , which means " respectABLE " . There is nothing to link this with the previous line and hence with " muneeswaraih " (by the great Sages). The most logical interpretation when one only says " X and Y were mentioned by people. And there is Z, which is the most respectable of all " is that the judgment on Z is the opinion of the person who said it. The most logical interpretation is that this is the opinion of Parasara himself. If you do not agree because a translation (or ten translations) say something else - with what is said varying from translation to translation - I do not know what to say. In that case, I guess you are the wrong person to argue with and I should argue with Sri Kapoor, Sri G.S. Sharma etc. To anyone who knows Sanskrit well, it must be evident that these authors did not pay much attention to small details when translating/commenting. To be fair them, they did a tremendous job and a great servce to the community. May God bless them. But their work is not complete and accurate. If someone who doesn't know Sanskrit well embraces the translations religiously, I can only say he/she is misled. > translates it: > > " The Rishis have also made mention of Kala and Chakra Dasa. But amongst the > remaining Dasas, Kalachakra Dasa has the greatest recognition. " BPHS 48.6 Sarba = all, dasaasu = among dasas. " Sarva dasaasu " means " among all dasas " . It does not mean " amongst the remaining dasas " . > Kapoor writes: > > " Some sages have made mention of Kala Dasa and Chakra Dasa; but they have > recognized the Kala Chakra Dasa as supreme. " Point refuted above. > We first note that the opinion about Kalachakra Dasa which you ascribed to > Parasara is not his but actually that of other people. Sharma's translation > suggests that Parasara thought that after Vimshottari out of " the > remaining " > Dasha systems Kalachakra is the best. But not superior to Vimshottari which > is supreme. " Sarva " never means " remaining " . It means " all " . As I pointed out, the sage used " all dasas " when mentioning the prominent place of Kalachakra dasa, but he did not qualify the pool being compared when mentioning the prominent place of Vimsottari dasa. The above argument of yours is untenable. > Then from 48.6-11 Parasara lists a number of Dasa systems like Chara, > Sthira, Kendra, Brahmagraha, Manduka, Shool, Yogardha, Drig, Trikona, Rasi, > Panchswara, Yogini, Pinda, Naisargika, Astavarga, Sandhya, Pachaka and > Tara. > > At this point Kapoor states in his translation: " But in our [Parasara's] > view all these Dasas [mentioned from verse 6-11 including Kalachakra] are > not appropriate (for the purpose for which they are meant.) " Again, Kapoor gives *his own* commentary instead of faithfully translating Parasara. This is not at all a faithful translation. After listing many dasas, Parasara says: " na sarvaah sarva sammataah " This clearly means " not all are accepted by all " . That is all it means. I hope you know enough Sanskrit to see this. This is not at all complicated. na = not sarvaah = all sarva = [by] all sammataah = agreed/accepted Parasara does NOT mention his view here. He only says that not everybody accepts every dasa. He also does not mention which dasas are not accepted by some. > Sharma's translation is slightly different. " Besides these Dasas > [Kalachakra > etc] some have said about Chara, Sthira, Kendra, Brahmagraha Dasas. O > Vipra! > apart from these, Manduka, Shool, Yogardha, Drig, Trikona, and Rasi are > also > there. Oh Brahmin! Panchswara, Yogini, Pinda, Naisargika, Astavarga, > Sandhya, Pachaka and Tara Dasa and the like are the different form of > Dasas. > However, out of these Dasa forms, all are not acceptable by common > consensus. " This is more reasonable than the other quotes so far. > Sharma's translation suggests that there is no common consensus on which of > these Dasa system is acceptable. Or, it could mean that by common consensus > all of them are unacceptable. This seems to be what Kapoor is saying, he > seems to suggest that they all are not useful or appropriate. Anyway, > exactly what is the correct translation here will need to be researched > more. In any case both translations suggest the inferiority of the Dasa > systems mentioned in BPHS 48.6-11 You are jumping to conclusions here. " Not all are accepted by all " does not suggest any inferiority. Why did Maharshi Parasara teach them in the first place? In any case, he clearly qualified " Kalachakra dasa " as " most respectable among ALL dasas " . > I have used Vimshottari Mahadasha for over 20 years in conjunction with > gochara and been very satisfied with it. You may not be in such a position. > I should say that I am not an arm chair astrologer or a hobbyist I am a > professional astrologer. This is my sole source of income. I do not > advertise, rather I depend on word-of-mouth referrals from satisfied > clients. That means that I have to be right a lot more often than I am > wrong > otherwise I would starve. I do not claim perfection or omniscience but I > must be doing something right. I have a very long list of charts to do, I > am > still working on charts ordered last September and I am not cheap, my web > site will prove that to you. I must be one of the only astrologers outside > of India whom people in (not from but in) India consult regularly and pay > US$ for what I do. Just last week I had a DHL package with a Demand Draft > from Pune. When you used Sri K.N. Rao's name to put down someone's argument, my Gurudeva Pt. Sanjay Rath pointed out the deficiencies of Sri Rao (the authority whose name you tried to use to force an issue). You took it out of context and said Pt. Rath's comments were " jalpa " (chattering) and not " vaada " (arguments). Now, you are resorting to some real jalpa above. The above points are quite irrelevant to the topic at hand and perhaps their purpose is to inspire awe in onlookers and intimidate the opponent in vaada (debate). A Tarot card reader may experience the same success you describe. This 'supposed' success proves nothing in an argument on what Parasara said. > The point being that Parasara Muni was not exaggerating when he said that > Vimshottari Mahadasa was the best. I am not saying that the other Mahadasa But he is being exaggerated and misinterpreted by some people. > systems may not be useful, in particular Kalachakra Dasa, and, with all > sincerity, I applaud you and others who are investigating this secondary > and > tertiary systems. But as the Rishi said this is Kali-yuga and the maximum Thank you. I appreciate it. > My only objection is that in your enthusiasm for Kalachakra Mahadasha and > even lesser Dasha systems you have needlessly minimized Vimshottari > Mahadasha. You may not know this but you have a reputation for playing down > and minimizing the system which Parasara said was the best. The very fact I never intended to minimize Vimsottari dasa. Even in my most recent mail, I praised it as one of the three general-purpose dasas that stand out. In any case, thank you for your feedback. I appreciate it. I will be more careful with my wording in future. > that I had to prove this to you shows what your attitude has been. I have You haven't proven anything. The only thing you have proven to me is that you heavily rely on unreliable commentaries that are not at all faithful translations. Without any disrespect to you, I will say one more thing: I will argue further only if a competent Sanskrit scholar who knows what he is saying wants to argue over the meaning of verses. I will not argue with those who are armed only with inaccurate translations and Sanskrit-English dictionaries, as it is quite pointless. I think made the points I wanted to make. > been shown texts on several occasions where you slighted it as ineffective > and then immediately launched into this or that Dasa system (please don't > ask me for examples as I tossed them long ago). Rather than take such an > approach why not just say " well this is what we can see from Vimshottari > Mahadasha let's see if other Dasa systems can shed extra light on it and > give more details. " That would be healthier for the science of Jyotish. There may be oversights and mistakes committed by me in haste. But, overall, I try to do just that. However, it must be pointed out there are variations within Vimsottari dasa that were mentioned in other classics. These were possibly discussed by Parasara in some missing verses. In any case labeling Kalachakra dasa and other dasas as " lesser " dasas is not a " healthy " attitude. About Sudarsana Chakra dasa, Parasara said (true translation): " O Brahmin, now THE BEST (uttamam) knowledge, which is a secret, will be spoken by me " . Using Sudarsana Chakra dasa taught by Brahma Himself, Parasara said that one can know the annual, monthly and daily results from birth to death ( " janmato mrityu paryantam varsha maasa dinodbhavam " 74-3). By labeling all other dasas as " lesser dasas " , you are denigrating a dasa which is, according to Parasara, " the best " knowledge. Before teaching me healthy attitude, kindly stop using terms like " lesser dasas " . I do not claim to have a perfect understanding of Jyotish. I am still a student. But I am studying with a very competent Guru and oneday I may have a very good understanding of the great secrets of Jyotish. But, even with what I know today, I see that putting down all the dasas one does not understand well is not the attitude that will please maharshis. > I am just wondering what will happen to the future of Jyotish if we lose a > whole generation of astrologers who do not have the proper respect for > Vimshottari Mahadasa and thus do not spend enough time practicing it and > mastering it because they have spent their precious time on lesser systems? > Continue with your research on Kalachakra Mahadasha but also spend the time > and find out why Parasara called it " mukhyaa vimshottari. " I beg to > remain... I will try to learn Vimsottari dasa also. Just a few days back, I learnt with immense satisfaction a variation called " Tribhagi variation " of Vimsottari dasa from my Gurudeva, which makes one really use nakshatras and nakshatra chakra (just like rasi chakra). I am extremely confident that Pt. Sanjay Rath will, in time, teach me *proper* use of Vimsottari dasa, its variations and other dasas. > Yours in the service of my eternal master Srila Prabhupada > > Shyamasundara Dasa > > www.ShyamasundaraDasa.com > > PPS could others please send this to the various appropriate . I forwarded it to vedic astrology and varahamihira lists this morning. Kindly forward my reply also to the relevant group(s) where you sent your reply. May Jupiter's light shine on us, Narasimha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2000 Report Share Posted December 14, 2000 Namaste to all, "Mukhya" should be translated as most important. "Mukhya" and "atimukhya" are used as synonyms. Best, --aphoton - Narasimha Rao Shyamasundara.ACBSP Cc: varahamihira ; vedic astrology ; gauranga ; srath Wednesday, December 13, 2000 6:37 PM [sri Guru] Parasara, Vimsottari and Kalachakra Jaya Jaya JagannathaNamaste Shyamasundara Prabhu,Thank you for your kind reply. Before I proceed, I want to clarify that I donot want to (and did not) "minimize" Vimsottari dasa. In my previous mail, Imentioned it as one of the three general purpose phalita dasas that stand out.I only want to counter *your* minimization of other dasas.I see that you heavily rely on incompetent commentaries that are not at allfaithful translations. I will make some relevant points below.> I have four editions of BPHS, three in English, one in Sanskrit-Hindi, in> this text I shall refer to the two most well known English translations> those of G.C. Sharma (Sagar edition) and the other by G. S. Kapoor (did the>> These two translations are in keeping with the spirit of the dictionary> indicating that Vimshottari Mahadasha is the supreme mahadasha. Not just> "important" as you have stated. There is a big difference between what you> said and the actual dictionary meaning of the word as understood by> competent translators and readers of dictionaries.I do concede that "important" was a weak translation of "mukhyaa". I shouldhave said "a particularly important" or "eminent". Two points here:(1) The word mukhya was used in literature in various degrees. "Mukhyaa" isstill not "the best". If that is what it means, then expressions like"atimukhya" also found in Sanskrit literature do not make any sense (ati =excessively).(2) For argument's sake, let us assume that mukhya means "the best". Now, didParasara say that Vimsottari was "the best" among *all* dasas or among all*Udu* dasas? It is not clear at all. Parasara talked about all the nakshatradasas ("nakshatraadhaarikaah") in one group and the rest as another group.Whether Parasara talked about Vimsottari dasa's place among nakshatra dasas orall dasas is not clear at all.In the case of Kalachakra dasa, he used the expression "sarva dasaasu", whichclearly means "among *all* dasas". Sarva = all.In 46-3 to 46-5, he said "there are several kinds of dasas. Vimsottari isconsidered (by whom?) particularly important; Ashtottari by some; Shodasottariby some; .... ; all these dasas based on nakshatras were said by earliersavants". So a plausible case can be made to say that Parasara was comparingVimsottari dasa only to other nakshatra dasas. In addition, the opinion in 46-3is not necessarily Parasara's.However, in 46-14 again says that Vimsottari is pre-eminently important andthis time it is clearly the opinion of the Sage. But, again it is unclear withwhich dasas it is being compared - all dasas or only nakshatra dasas. The sagemade the pool of comparison clear only for Kalachakra dasa.> Let us move now to your second assertion. You have stated: "kaalachakra> dasaa chaanyaa maanyaa sarvadasaasu yaa" which according to you means> "there> is another dasa called Kalachakra dasa which the most respectable of ALL> dasas." This is true but you neglected to tell us whose opinion this is. Is> it Parasara's opinion or some one else's? It turns out that it is not> Parasara's opinion at all but that of others. The antecedent half sloka> that> you did not give us tells us something very different. Here is how SharmaNot at all. You may think so if you completely rely on incompetent andincomplete commentaries.The first line of the sloka that I omitted does not change the meaning at all.The sloka is:"atha kaala dasaa chakra dasaa proktaa muneeswaraihkaala chakra dasaa chaanyaa maanyaa sarva dasaasu yaa"It literally means "thus Kala dasa and Chakra dasa were well-mentioned by greatSages. There is another dasa called Kalachakra dasa, which is the [most]respectable dasa among *all*dasas".(1) The use of the word "sarva" (all) makes it abundantly clear that Kalachakradasa is not being compared to Kala dasa or Chakra dasa or a small set of dasas.Its position among *all * (sarva) dasas is being judged.(2) Attributing this opinion to other "great sages" (as Kapoor apparently doesbased on your quote below) is completely wrong too. "Prokta" (well-mentioned)in the first line is the past participle form (like "mataa" in 46-3) and so itapplies to "by great Sages". But the second part of the sloka does not use anypast participles. It uses the word "maanyaah", which means "respectABLE". Thereis nothing to link this with the previous line and hence with "muneeswaraih"(by the great Sages). The most logical interpretation when one only says "X andY were mentioned by people. And there is Z, which is the most respectable ofall" is that the judgment on Z is the opinion of the person who said it. Themost logical interpretation is that this is the opinion of Parasara himself.If you do not agree because a translation (or ten translations) say somethingelse - with what is said varying from translation to translation - I do notknow what to say. In that case, I guess you are the wrong person to argue withand I should argue with Sri Kapoor, Sri G.S. Sharma etc. To anyone who knowsSanskrit well, it must be evident that these authors did not pay much attentionto small details when translating/commenting.To be fair them, they did a tremendous job and a great servce to the community.May God bless them. But their work is not complete and accurate. If someone whodoesn't know Sanskrit well embraces the translations religiously, I can onlysay he/she is misled.> translates it:>> "The Rishis have also made mention of Kala and Chakra Dasa. But amongst the> remaining Dasas, Kalachakra Dasa has the greatest recognition." BPHS 48.6Sarba = all, dasaasu = among dasas. "Sarva dasaasu" means "among all dasas". Itdoes not mean "amongst the remaining dasas".> Kapoor writes:>> "Some sages have made mention of Kala Dasa and Chakra Dasa; but they have> recognized the Kala Chakra Dasa as supreme."Point refuted above.> We first note that the opinion about Kalachakra Dasa which you ascribed to> Parasara is not his but actually that of other people. Sharma's translation> suggests that Parasara thought that after Vimshottari out of "the> remaining"> Dasha systems Kalachakra is the best. But not superior to Vimshottari which> is supreme."Sarva" never means "remaining". It means "all".As I pointed out, the sage used "all dasas" when mentioning the prominent placeof Kalachakra dasa, but he did not qualify the pool being compared whenmentioning the prominent place of Vimsottari dasa. The above argument of yoursis untenable.> Then from 48.6-11 Parasara lists a number of Dasa systems like Chara,> Sthira, Kendra, Brahmagraha, Manduka, Shool, Yogardha, Drig, Trikona, Rasi,> Panchswara, Yogini, Pinda, Naisargika, Astavarga, Sandhya, Pachaka and> Tara.>> At this point Kapoor states in his translation: "But in our [Parasara's]> view all these Dasas [mentioned from verse 6-11 including Kalachakra] are> not appropriate (for the purpose for which they are meant.)"Again, Kapoor gives *his own* commentary instead of faithfully translatingParasara. This is not at all a faithful translation. After listing many dasas,Parasara says:"na sarvaah sarva sammataah"This clearly means "not all are accepted by all". That is all it means. I hopeyou know enough Sanskrit to see this. This is not at all complicated.na = notsarvaah = allsarva = [by] allsammataah = agreed/acceptedParasara does NOT mention his view here. He only says that not everybodyaccepts every dasa. He also does not mention which dasas are not accepted bysome.> Sharma's translation is slightly different. "Besides these Dasas> [Kalachakra> etc] some have said about Chara, Sthira, Kendra, Brahmagraha Dasas. O> Vipra!> apart from these, Manduka, Shool, Yogardha, Drig, Trikona, and Rasi are> also> there. Oh Brahmin! Panchswara, Yogini, Pinda, Naisargika, Astavarga,> Sandhya, Pachaka and Tara Dasa and the like are the different form of> Dasas.> However, out of these Dasa forms, all are not acceptable by common> consensus."This is more reasonable than the other quotes so far.> Sharma's translation suggests that there is no common consensus on which of> these Dasa system is acceptable. Or, it could mean that by common consensus> all of them are unacceptable. This seems to be what Kapoor is saying, he> seems to suggest that they all are not useful or appropriate. Anyway,> exactly what is the correct translation here will need to be researched> more. In any case both translations suggest the inferiority of the Dasa> systems mentioned in BPHS 48.6-11You are jumping to conclusions here. "Not all are accepted by all" does notsuggest any inferiority. Why did Maharshi Parasara teach them in the firstplace?In any case, he clearly qualified "Kalachakra dasa" as "most respectable amongALL dasas".> I have used Vimshottari Mahadasha for over 20 years in conjunction with> gochara and been very satisfied with it. You may not be in such a position.> I should say that I am not an arm chair astrologer or a hobbyist I am a> professional astrologer. This is my sole source of income. I do not> advertise, rather I depend on word-of-mouth referrals from satisfied> clients. That means that I have to be right a lot more often than I am> wrong> otherwise I would starve. I do not claim perfection or omniscience but I> must be doing something right. I have a very long list of charts to do, I> am> still working on charts ordered last September and I am not cheap, my web> site will prove that to you. I must be one of the only astrologers outside> of India whom people in (not from but in) India consult regularly and pay> US$ for what I do. Just last week I had a DHL package with a Demand Draft> from Pune.When you used Sri K.N. Rao's name to put down someone's argument, my GurudevaPt. Sanjay Rath pointed out the deficiencies of Sri Rao (the authority whosename you tried to use to force an issue). You took it out of context and saidPt. Rath's comments were "jalpa" (chattering) and not "vaada" (arguments).Now, you are resorting to some real jalpa above. The above points are quiteirrelevant to the topic at hand and perhaps their purpose is to inspire awe inonlookers and intimidate the opponent in vaada (debate).A Tarot card reader may experience the same success you describe. This'supposed' success proves nothing in an argument on what Parasara said.> The point being that Parasara Muni was not exaggerating when he said that> Vimshottari Mahadasa was the best. I am not saying that the other MahadasaBut he is being exaggerated and misinterpreted by some people.> systems may not be useful, in particular Kalachakra Dasa, and, with all> sincerity, I applaud you and others who are investigating this secondary> and> tertiary systems. But as the Rishi said this is Kali-yuga and the maximumThank you. I appreciate it.> My only objection is that in your enthusiasm for Kalachakra Mahadasha and> even lesser Dasha systems you have needlessly minimized Vimshottari> Mahadasha. You may not know this but you have a reputation for playing down> and minimizing the system which Parasara said was the best. The very factI never intended to minimize Vimsottari dasa. Even in my most recent mail, Ipraised it as one of the three general-purpose dasas that stand out. In anycase, thank you for your feedback. I appreciate it. I will be more careful withmy wording in future.> that I had to prove this to you shows what your attitude has been. I haveYou haven't proven anything. The only thing you have proven to me is that youheavily rely on unreliable commentaries that are not at all faithfultranslations.Without any disrespect to you, I will say one more thing: I will argue furtheronly if a competent Sanskrit scholar who knows what he is saying wants to argueover the meaning of verses. I will not argue with those who are armed only withinaccurate translations and Sanskrit-English dictionaries, as it is quitepointless. I think made the points I wanted to make.> been shown texts on several occasions where you slighted it as ineffective> and then immediately launched into this or that Dasa system (please don't> ask me for examples as I tossed them long ago). Rather than take such an> approach why not just say "well this is what we can see from Vimshottari> Mahadasha let's see if other Dasa systems can shed extra light on it and> give more details." That would be healthier for the science of Jyotish.There may be oversights and mistakes committed by me in haste. But, overall, Itry to do just that.However, it must be pointed out there are variations within Vimsottari dasathat were mentioned in other classics. These were possibly discussed byParasara in some missing verses.In any case labeling Kalachakra dasa and other dasas as "lesser" dasas is not a"healthy" attitude. About Sudarsana Chakra dasa, Parasara said (truetranslation): "O Brahmin, now THE BEST (uttamam) knowledge, which is a secret,will be spoken by me". Using Sudarsana Chakra dasa taught by Brahma Himself,Parasara said that one can know the annual, monthly and daily results frombirth to death ("janmato mrityu paryantam varsha maasa dinodbhavam" 74-3). Bylabeling all other dasas as "lesser dasas", you are denigrating a dasa whichis, according to Parasara, "the best" knowledge. Before teaching me healthyattitude, kindly stop using terms like "lesser dasas".I do not claim to have a perfect understanding of Jyotish. I am still astudent. But I am studying with a very competent Guru and oneday I may have avery good understanding of the great secrets of Jyotish. But, even with what Iknow today, I see that putting down all the dasas one does not understand wellis not the attitude that will please maharshis.> I am just wondering what will happen to the future of Jyotish if we lose a> whole generation of astrologers who do not have the proper respect for> Vimshottari Mahadasa and thus do not spend enough time practicing it and> mastering it because they have spent their precious time on lesser systems?> Continue with your research on Kalachakra Mahadasha but also spend the time> and find out why Parasara called it "mukhyaa vimshottari." I beg to> remain...I will try to learn Vimsottari dasa also. Just a few days back, I learnt withimmense satisfaction a variation called "Tribhagi variation" of Vimsottari dasafrom my Gurudeva, which makes one really use nakshatras and nakshatra chakra(just like rasi chakra). I am extremely confident that Pt. Sanjay Rath will, intime, teach me *proper* use of Vimsottari dasa, its variations and other dasas.> Yours in the service of my eternal master Srila Prabhupada>> Shyamasundara Dasa>> www.ShyamasundaraDasa.com>> PPS could others please send this to the various appropriate .I forwarded it to vedic astrology and varahamihira lists this morning. Kindlyforward my reply also to the relevant group(s) where you sent your reply.May Jupiter's light shine on us,NarasimhaOM TAT SATArchive: varahamihiraInfo: varahamihira/info.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2000 Report Share Posted December 14, 2000 Namaste to all, I don't know if anyone is reading these posts but please ignore the last email. "Mukhya" is most important and "atimukhya" is supremely important. I apologize for the error. aphoton - aphoton varahamihira Wednesday, December 13, 2000 7:22 PM Re: [sri Guru] Parasara, Vimsottari and Kalachakra Namaste to all, "Mukhya" should be translated as most important. "Mukhya" and "atimukhya" are used as synonyms. Best, --aphoton - Narasimha Rao Shyamasundara.ACBSP Cc: varahamihira ; vedic astrology ; gauranga ; srath Wednesday, December 13, 2000 6:37 PM [sri Guru] Parasara, Vimsottari and Kalachakra Jaya Jaya JagannathaNamaste Shyamasundara Prabhu,Thank you for your kind reply. Before I proceed, I want to clarify that I donot want to (and did not) "minimize" Vimsottari dasa. In my previous mail, Imentioned it as one of the three general purpose phalita dasas that stand out.I only want to counter *your* minimization of other dasas.I see that you heavily rely on incompetent commentaries that are not at allfaithful translations. I will make some relevant points below.> I have four editions of BPHS, three in English, one in Sanskrit-Hindi, in> this text I shall refer to the two most well known English translations> those of G.C. Sharma (Sagar edition) and the other by G. S. Kapoor (did the>> These two translations are in keeping with the spirit of the dictionary> indicating that Vimshottari Mahadasha is the supreme mahadasha. Not just> "important" as you have stated. There is a big difference between what you> said and the actual dictionary meaning of the word as understood by> competent translators and readers of dictionaries.I do concede that "important" was a weak translation of "mukhyaa". I shouldhave said "a particularly important" or "eminent". Two points here:(1) The word mukhya was used in literature in various degrees. "Mukhyaa" isstill not "the best". If that is what it means, then expressions like"atimukhya" also found in Sanskrit literature do not make any sense (ati =excessively).(2) For argument's sake, let us assume that mukhya means "the best". Now, didParasara say that Vimsottari was "the best" among *all* dasas or among all*Udu* dasas? It is not clear at all. Parasara talked about all the nakshatradasas ("nakshatraadhaarikaah") in one group and the rest as another group.Whether Parasara talked about Vimsottari dasa's place among nakshatra dasas orall dasas is not clear at all.In the case of Kalachakra dasa, he used the expression "sarva dasaasu", whichclearly means "among *all* dasas". Sarva = all.In 46-3 to 46-5, he said "there are several kinds of dasas. Vimsottari isconsidered (by whom?) particularly important; Ashtottari by some; Shodasottariby some; .... ; all these dasas based on nakshatras were said by earliersavants". So a plausible case can be made to say that Parasara was comparingVimsottari dasa only to other nakshatra dasas. In addition, the opinion in 46-3is not necessarily Parasara's.However, in 46-14 again says that Vimsottari is pre-eminently important andthis time it is clearly the opinion of the Sage. But, again it is unclear withwhich dasas it is being compared - all dasas or only nakshatra dasas. The sagemade the pool of comparison clear only for Kalachakra dasa.> Let us move now to your second assertion. You have stated: "kaalachakra> dasaa chaanyaa maanyaa sarvadasaasu yaa" which according to you means> "there> is another dasa called Kalachakra dasa which the most respectable of ALL> dasas." This is true but you neglected to tell us whose opinion this is. Is> it Parasara's opinion or some one else's? It turns out that it is not> Parasara's opinion at all but that of others. The antecedent half sloka> that> you did not give us tells us something very different. Here is how SharmaNot at all. You may think so if you completely rely on incompetent andincomplete commentaries.The first line of the sloka that I omitted does not change the meaning at all.The sloka is:"atha kaala dasaa chakra dasaa proktaa muneeswaraihkaala chakra dasaa chaanyaa maanyaa sarva dasaasu yaa"It literally means "thus Kala dasa and Chakra dasa were well-mentioned by greatSages. There is another dasa called Kalachakra dasa, which is the [most]respectable dasa among *all*dasas".(1) The use of the word "sarva" (all) makes it abundantly clear that Kalachakradasa is not being compared to Kala dasa or Chakra dasa or a small set of dasas.Its position among *all * (sarva) dasas is being judged.(2) Attributing this opinion to other "great sages" (as Kapoor apparently doesbased on your quote below) is completely wrong too. "Prokta" (well-mentioned)in the first line is the past participle form (like "mataa" in 46-3) and so itapplies to "by great Sages". But the second part of the sloka does not use anypast participles. It uses the word "maanyaah", which means "respectABLE". Thereis nothing to link this with the previous line and hence with "muneeswaraih"(by the great Sages). The most logical interpretation when one only says "X andY were mentioned by people. And there is Z, which is the most respectable ofall" is that the judgment on Z is the opinion of the person who said it. Themost logical interpretation is that this is the opinion of Parasara himself.If you do not agree because a translation (or ten translations) say somethingelse - with what is said varying from translation to translation - I do notknow what to say. In that case, I guess you are the wrong person to argue withand I should argue with Sri Kapoor, Sri G.S. Sharma etc. To anyone who knowsSanskrit well, it must be evident that these authors did not pay much attentionto small details when translating/commenting.To be fair them, they did a tremendous job and a great servce to the community.May God bless them. But their work is not complete and accurate. If someone whodoesn't know Sanskrit well embraces the translations religiously, I can onlysay he/she is misled.> translates it:>> "The Rishis have also made mention of Kala and Chakra Dasa. But amongst the> remaining Dasas, Kalachakra Dasa has the greatest recognition." BPHS 48.6Sarba = all, dasaasu = among dasas. "Sarva dasaasu" means "among all dasas". Itdoes not mean "amongst the remaining dasas".> Kapoor writes:>> "Some sages have made mention of Kala Dasa and Chakra Dasa; but they have> recognized the Kala Chakra Dasa as supreme."Point refuted above.> We first note that the opinion about Kalachakra Dasa which you ascribed to> Parasara is not his but actually that of other people. Sharma's translation> suggests that Parasara thought that after Vimshottari out of "the> remaining"> Dasha systems Kalachakra is the best. But not superior to Vimshottari which> is supreme."Sarva" never means "remaining". It means "all".As I pointed out, the sage used "all dasas" when mentioning the prominent placeof Kalachakra dasa, but he did not qualify the pool being compared whenmentioning the prominent place of Vimsottari dasa. The above argument of yoursis untenable.> Then from 48.6-11 Parasara lists a number of Dasa systems like Chara,> Sthira, Kendra, Brahmagraha, Manduka, Shool, Yogardha, Drig, Trikona, Rasi,> Panchswara, Yogini, Pinda, Naisargika, Astavarga, Sandhya, Pachaka and> Tara.>> At this point Kapoor states in his translation: "But in our [Parasara's]> view all these Dasas [mentioned from verse 6-11 including Kalachakra] are> not appropriate (for the purpose for which they are meant.)"Again, Kapoor gives *his own* commentary instead of faithfully translatingParasara. This is not at all a faithful translation. After listing many dasas,Parasara says:"na sarvaah sarva sammataah"This clearly means "not all are accepted by all". That is all it means. I hopeyou know enough Sanskrit to see this. This is not at all complicated.na = notsarvaah = allsarva = [by] allsammataah = agreed/acceptedParasara does NOT mention his view here. He only says that not everybodyaccepts every dasa. He also does not mention which dasas are not accepted bysome.> Sharma's translation is slightly different. "Besides these Dasas> [Kalachakra> etc] some have said about Chara, Sthira, Kendra, Brahmagraha Dasas. O> Vipra!> apart from these, Manduka, Shool, Yogardha, Drig, Trikona, and Rasi are> also> there. Oh Brahmin! Panchswara, Yogini, Pinda, Naisargika, Astavarga,> Sandhya, Pachaka and Tara Dasa and the like are the different form of> Dasas.> However, out of these Dasa forms, all are not acceptable by common> consensus."This is more reasonable than the other quotes so far.> Sharma's translation suggests that there is no common consensus on which of> these Dasa system is acceptable. Or, it could mean that by common consensus> all of them are unacceptable. This seems to be what Kapoor is saying, he> seems to suggest that they all are not useful or appropriate. Anyway,> exactly what is the correct translation here will need to be researched> more. In any case both translations suggest the inferiority of the Dasa> systems mentioned in BPHS 48.6-11You are jumping to conclusions here. "Not all are accepted by all" does notsuggest any inferiority. Why did Maharshi Parasara teach them in the firstplace?In any case, he clearly qualified "Kalachakra dasa" as "most respectable amongALL dasas".> I have used Vimshottari Mahadasha for over 20 years in conjunction with> gochara and been very satisfied with it. You may not be in such a position.> I should say that I am not an arm chair astrologer or a hobbyist I am a> professional astrologer. This is my sole source of income. I do not> advertise, rather I depend on word-of-mouth referrals from satisfied> clients. That means that I have to be right a lot more often than I am> wrong> otherwise I would starve. I do not claim perfection or omniscience but I> must be doing something right. I have a very long list of charts to do, I> am> still working on charts ordered last September and I am not cheap, my web> site will prove that to you. I must be one of the only astrologers outside> of India whom people in (not from but in) India consult regularly and pay> US$ for what I do. Just last week I had a DHL package with a Demand Draft> from Pune.When you used Sri K.N. Rao's name to put down someone's argument, my GurudevaPt. Sanjay Rath pointed out the deficiencies of Sri Rao (the authority whosename you tried to use to force an issue). You took it out of context and saidPt. Rath's comments were "jalpa" (chattering) and not "vaada" (arguments).Now, you are resorting to some real jalpa above. The above points are quiteirrelevant to the topic at hand and perhaps their purpose is to inspire awe inonlookers and intimidate the opponent in vaada (debate).A Tarot card reader may experience the same success you describe. This'supposed' success proves nothing in an argument on what Parasara said.> The point being that Parasara Muni was not exaggerating when he said that> Vimshottari Mahadasa was the best. I am not saying that the other MahadasaBut he is being exaggerated and misinterpreted by some people.> systems may not be useful, in particular Kalachakra Dasa, and, with all> sincerity, I applaud you and others who are investigating this secondary> and> tertiary systems. But as the Rishi said this is Kali-yuga and the maximumThank you. I appreciate it.> My only objection is that in your enthusiasm for Kalachakra Mahadasha and> even lesser Dasha systems you have needlessly minimized Vimshottari> Mahadasha. You may not know this but you have a reputation for playing down> and minimizing the system which Parasara said was the best. The very factI never intended to minimize Vimsottari dasa. Even in my most recent mail, Ipraised it as one of the three general-purpose dasas that stand out. In anycase, thank you for your feedback. I appreciate it. I will be more careful withmy wording in future.> that I had to prove this to you shows what your attitude has been. I haveYou haven't proven anything. The only thing you have proven to me is that youheavily rely on unreliable commentaries that are not at all faithfultranslations.Without any disrespect to you, I will say one more thing: I will argue furtheronly if a competent Sanskrit scholar who knows what he is saying wants to argueover the meaning of verses. I will not argue with those who are armed only withinaccurate translations and Sanskrit-English dictionaries, as it is quitepointless. I think made the points I wanted to make.> been shown texts on several occasions where you slighted it as ineffective> and then immediately launched into this or that Dasa system (please don't> ask me for examples as I tossed them long ago). Rather than take such an> approach why not just say "well this is what we can see from Vimshottari> Mahadasha let's see if other Dasa systems can shed extra light on it and> give more details." That would be healthier for the science of Jyotish.There may be oversights and mistakes committed by me in haste. But, overall, Itry to do just that.However, it must be pointed out there are variations within Vimsottari dasathat were mentioned in other classics. These were possibly discussed byParasara in some missing verses.In any case labeling Kalachakra dasa and other dasas as "lesser" dasas is not a"healthy" attitude. About Sudarsana Chakra dasa, Parasara said (truetranslation): "O Brahmin, now THE BEST (uttamam) knowledge, which is a secret,will be spoken by me". Using Sudarsana Chakra dasa taught by Brahma Himself,Parasara said that one can know the annual, monthly and daily results frombirth to death ("janmato mrityu paryantam varsha maasa dinodbhavam" 74-3). Bylabeling all other dasas as "lesser dasas", you are denigrating a dasa whichis, according to Parasara, "the best" knowledge. Before teaching me healthyattitude, kindly stop using terms like "lesser dasas".I do not claim to have a perfect understanding of Jyotish. I am still astudent. But I am studying with a very competent Guru and oneday I may have avery good understanding of the great secrets of Jyotish. But, even with what Iknow today, I see that putting down all the dasas one does not understand wellis not the attitude that will please maharshis.> I am just wondering what will happen to the future of Jyotish if we lose a> whole generation of astrologers who do not have the proper respect for> Vimshottari Mahadasa and thus do not spend enough time practicing it and> mastering it because they have spent their precious time on lesser systems?> Continue with your research on Kalachakra Mahadasha but also spend the time> and find out why Parasara called it "mukhyaa vimshottari." I beg to> remain...I will try to learn Vimsottari dasa also. Just a few days back, I learnt withimmense satisfaction a variation called "Tribhagi variation" of Vimsottari dasafrom my Gurudeva, which makes one really use nakshatras and nakshatra chakra(just like rasi chakra). I am extremely confident that Pt. Sanjay Rath will, intime, teach me *proper* use of Vimsottari dasa, its variations and other dasas.> Yours in the service of my eternal master Srila Prabhupada>> Shyamasundara Dasa>> www.ShyamasundaraDasa.com>> PPS could others please send this to the various appropriate .I forwarded it to vedic astrology and varahamihira lists this morning. Kindlyforward my reply also to the relevant group(s) where you sent your reply.May Jupiter's light shine on us,NarasimhaOM TAT SATArchive: varahamihiraInfo: varahamihira/info.htmlOM TAT SATArchive: varahamihiraInfo: varahamihira/info.html Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 14, 2000 Report Share Posted December 14, 2000 Jaya Jagannatha Namaste Shyamasundara Prabhu, Thank you for your kind response. I wish you very well in your efforts to master Sanskrit. > Dear Narasimha Raoji, > > Please accept my best wishes. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. > Bhakta-vigna-vinasha Nrsimhadeva Bhagavan ki jaya. > > I congratulate you for a very good smashing rebuttal to my text. You > have > found my weak link in that I do not (yet) know Sanskrit. In fact your > text > has greatly enthused me to clear up that deficiency by putting some > serious > effort into learning Sanskrit in the coming years. It is expected of > any > serious scholar of a subject to learn the language that a science is > published in. For example Math graduates are required to study Russian > and > or German. > > However, I should say that I was not satisfied by your answer since > you did > not explain very well how it is that at the end in verse 14 Parasara > concluded that Vimshottari was best for Kali. In their commentary > Sharma > says the same. I know that according to you none of these men are > competent > in Sanskrit, what to speak of me who is depending on them. And, since > you I did not say the translatORS were incompetent. I only said the translatIONS you quoted were incompetent. A competent scholar may sometimes come up with an incompetent translation. We don't know the conditions under which these scholars operated. The main problem is that their personal views corrupted what they were writing. They did not do a *faithful* 'translation' of Parasara and they only wrote a 'commentary'. An example is " not all are accepted by all " being translated as " in our view, all these dasas are not appropriate " (the original verse is non-committal on whose view it is). > said you will only discuss with someone who is competent in Sanskrit I > will > arrange for such a debate. I have already contacted not one, not two, > but > four Sanskrit teachers to analyze the texts in question and your > response to > my text. And, since they are also Hindi scholars I have asked them to > look > into Pandita Deva Chandra Jha's translation and commentary into Hindi > of > BPHS. I had discussed it with two of them over the phone before I sent > out > the text and they had agreed with me. But to better bolster my > position, and > so as not to insult you I will let the four Panditas speak for > themselves > this way you can't say it is the conclusion of someone who doesn't > know > Sanskrit. I am glad you took this trouble. I look forward to directly discussing this with the scholars chosen by you, either on the lists or privately. Please request them to concentrate on identifying whether (1) Parasara talked about Kalachakra dasa's position among " all " (sarva) dasas or only among a small subset, (2) the view on Kalachakra dasa is Parasara's or that of other Sages, and, (3) whether it is CRYSTAL CLEAR if Parasara's statement on the position of Vimsottari dasa is among *all* dasas or only among nakshatra-based dasas. I dispute " mukhyaa = the best " translation (the best equivalent for " the best " is perhaps " uttamam " , which was used with regard to Sudarsana Chakra dasa), but, as I said, " mukhya " was used in various degrees in literature. So I do not want the argument to be on this word. The points I want your chosen scholars to debate on are the above three. > Now just in case you say that they are not competent because they do > not > jyotish (one of them may), that would not be accurate. First of all it > is > not at all technical just a list of methods and Parasara's opinion of > them. > Secondly they will see the work of the other translators my text and > your > reply to my text, if they have any questions I can supply technical > answers. No, I do not insist on much technical knowledge of the Sanskrit scholars chosen by you. In fact, it must be the technical knowledge of the translators that tricked them into attributing their views to Parasara rather than giving a faithful translation! Minimum technical knowledge is sufficient. I would request your scholars to look at the verses and come up with a *faithful* translation with regard to the three points I mentioned above. I do not want any individual perspectives and views added to what Parasara said. > It will take some time before they can give me a response as two of > them > live in India, one of them is travelling, and the other has just > recently > changed domiciles. But we have all the time in the world and when I > get the > results I will share them with you. I can hardly wait, how about you? > Then > we will finally know the answer to this question. Let them take their time to prepare. I look forward to finally debating with them (if needed). For legitimacy, BTW, what we need is a transparent intellectual debate and not an arrangement where you claim you have 4 competent scholars who are going to judge things and tell you the answer and you are going to inform us so that " we will finally know the answer " . Is there any chance to actually have a live debate with real people *directly*? > Though I do recall seeing > a text recently by Sanjay in which he concurs that Vimshottari is the > best. What was the context? What exactly did he say? Vimsottari dasa IS the best Udu dasa. It IS one of the most important dasas overall. I DID NOT and DO NOT dispute that. I only dispute your dismissal of other dasas as lesser dasas (esp Kalachakra dasa). > Still I thank you for the good whack as it has stirred me from my > indolence. > Of course I could do nothing about it before as I had so many project > to > complete, but now those projects are nearing completion so I will have > more > free time to take up the study of Sanskrit. > > I have made a small comment near the end. > > Yours in the service of my eternal master Srila Prabhupada > > Shyamasundara Dasa May Jupiter's light shine on us, Narasimha > PS Please send to the other PS: I did. Please do the same with my reply and your list. Kindly forward this to your scholars as well. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 16, 2000 Report Share Posted December 16, 2000 Jaya Jagannath Dear Narasimha, Let us not worry about those scholars. I will be looking at this as well. My traslation is the views of the Parampara and Vimsottari is the BEST UDU DASA. I also agree that the translation of Mukhyaa as " Best " is incorrect. It is closer to " JYESTHA " or like " the first among equals " . Mukhyaa of a village is the leader of that village and is acknowledged as the first among equals. Perhaps this can have a hidden meaning that vimsottari has the widest general application whereas the other Udu dasa's are very conditional. Kalachakra has a totally different standing as it can ONLY be compared with Su-Dasa or what Parasara also called as " Rasi dasa " in BPHS or which Jaimini discribed as " Tararkamse Mandadhyo daseshah " ... and Rangacharya Prabhu called this Tara Dasa..These are Rasi Dasa's based on nakshatra whereas Vimsottari, ashtottari etc are graha dasa's based on Nakshatra. Then there are the Rasi dasa's based on Rasi and the Graha dasa's also based on rasi/lagna. Then there are also those Dasa's based on Atmakaraka..well, let us wait for the scholars to comment. Best Wishes Sanjay Rath - <pvr <Shyamasundara.ACBSP; <varahamihira >; <vedic astrology > Cc: <gauranga; <srath Thursday, December 14, 2000 7:25 AM [sri Guru] Re: Parasara, Vimsottari and Kalachakra > > > Jaya Jagannatha > Namaste Shyamasundara Prabhu, > > Thank you for your kind response. I wish you very well in your efforts to > master Sanskrit. > > > Dear Narasimha Raoji, > > > > Please accept my best wishes. All glories to Srila Prabhupada. > > Bhakta-vigna-vinasha Nrsimhadeva Bhagavan ki jaya. > > > > I congratulate you for a very good smashing rebuttal to my text. You > > have > > found my weak link in that I do not (yet) know Sanskrit. In fact your > > text > > has greatly enthused me to clear up that deficiency by putting some > > serious > > effort into learning Sanskrit in the coming years. It is expected of > > any > > serious scholar of a subject to learn the language that a science is > > published in. For example Math graduates are required to study Russian > > and > > or German. > > > > However, I should say that I was not satisfied by your answer since > > you did > > not explain very well how it is that at the end in verse 14 Parasara > > concluded that Vimshottari was best for Kali. In their commentary > > Sharma > > says the same. I know that according to you none of these men are > > competent > > in Sanskrit, what to speak of me who is depending on them. And, since > > you > > I did not say the translatORS were incompetent. I only said the > translatIONS you quoted were incompetent. A competent scholar may sometimes > come up with an incompetent translation. We don't know the conditions under > which these scholars operated. > > The main problem is that their personal views corrupted what they were > writing. They did not do a *faithful* 'translation' of Parasara and they > only wrote a 'commentary'. An example is " not all are accepted by all " > being translated as " in our view, all these dasas are not appropriate " (the > original verse is non-committal on whose view it is). > > > said you will only discuss with someone who is competent in Sanskrit I > > will > > arrange for such a debate. I have already contacted not one, not two, > > but > > four Sanskrit teachers to analyze the texts in question and your > > response to > > my text. And, since they are also Hindi scholars I have asked them to > > look > > into Pandita Deva Chandra Jha's translation and commentary into Hindi > > of > > BPHS. I had discussed it with two of them over the phone before I sent > > out > > the text and they had agreed with me. But to better bolster my > > position, and > > so as not to insult you I will let the four Panditas speak for > > themselves > > this way you can't say it is the conclusion of someone who doesn't > > know > > Sanskrit. > > I am glad you took this trouble. I look forward to directly discussing this > with the scholars chosen by you, either on the lists or privately. > > Please request them to concentrate on identifying whether (1) Parasara > talked about Kalachakra dasa's position among " all " (sarva) dasas or only > among a small subset, (2) the view on Kalachakra dasa is Parasara's or that > of other Sages, and, (3) whether it is CRYSTAL CLEAR if Parasara's > statement on the position of Vimsottari dasa is among *all* dasas or only > among nakshatra-based dasas. > > I dispute " mukhyaa = the best " translation (the best equivalent for " the > best " is perhaps " uttamam " , which was used with regard to Sudarsana Chakra > dasa), but, as I said, " mukhya " was used in various degrees in literature. > So I do not want the argument to be on this word. The points I want your > chosen scholars to debate on are the above three. > > > Now just in case you say that they are not competent because they do > > not > > jyotish (one of them may), that would not be accurate. First of all it > > is > > not at all technical just a list of methods and Parasara's opinion of > > them. > > Secondly they will see the work of the other translators my text and > > your > > reply to my text, if they have any questions I can supply technical > > answers. > > No, I do not insist on much technical knowledge of the Sanskrit scholars > chosen by you. In fact, it must be the technical knowledge of the > translators that tricked them into attributing their views to Parasara > rather than giving a faithful translation! > > Minimum technical knowledge is sufficient. I would request your scholars to > look at the verses and come up with a *faithful* translation with regard to > the three points I mentioned above. I do not want any individual > perspectives and views added to what Parasara said. > > > It will take some time before they can give me a response as two of > > them > > live in India, one of them is travelling, and the other has just > > recently > > changed domiciles. But we have all the time in the world and when I > > get the > > results I will share them with you. I can hardly wait, how about you? > > Then > > we will finally know the answer to this question. > > Let them take their time to prepare. I look forward to finally debating > with them (if needed). > > For legitimacy, BTW, what we need is a transparent intellectual debate and > not an arrangement where you claim you have 4 competent scholars who are > going to judge things and tell you the answer and you are going to inform > us so that " we will finally know the answer " . Is there any chance to > actually have a live debate with real people *directly*? > > > Though I do recall seeing > > a text recently by Sanjay in which he concurs that Vimshottari is the > > best. > > What was the context? What exactly did he say? > > Vimsottari dasa IS the best Udu dasa. It IS one of the most important dasas > overall. I DID NOT and DO NOT dispute that. I only dispute your dismissal > of other dasas as lesser dasas (esp Kalachakra dasa). > > > Still I thank you for the good whack as it has stirred me from my > > indolence. > > Of course I could do nothing about it before as I had so many project > > to > > complete, but now those projects are nearing completion so I will have > > more > > free time to take up the study of Sanskrit. > > > > I have made a small comment near the end. > > > > Yours in the service of my eternal master Srila Prabhupada > > > > Shyamasundara Dasa > > May Jupiter's light shine on us, > Narasimha > > > PS Please send to the other > > PS: I did. Please do the same with my reply and your list. Kindly forward > this to your scholars as well. > > > > > OM TAT SAT > Archive: varahamihira > Info: varahamihira/info.html > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You are posting as a guest. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.