RE: Nelson Mandela's Chart

May 25, 2005

Namaste Bipin,

Palmistry is, after having read a few books, a very revealing art which btw mostly and wonderfully co-relates with jyotish.

Namaste;

Gaurav Jain

* I bet Swee Ji has a very developed Intuition line along with the mystic cross!, cuz she is such a brilliant jyotish.

May 25, 2005

Jaya

Jagannatha

Dear Bipin,

Hare Krishna

Nasta Jataka prsna

indicates Aquarius lagna with AK Moon. GL on the ascendant. Looking at his face, which navamsa do you think fits him? I have adjusted the time

according to the degree rising.

Love,

Swee

On Behalf Of Bipin Prag

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 3:00

PM

[Jaya Jagannatha] Nelson

Mandela's Chart

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear List Members

From time to time, many great personalities are born, Nelson

Mandela is one of them. As students of astrologers, we rely on these

souls to assist us in our quest to perfect our techniques and improve our

skills. Nelson Mandela was recently quoted as 8th greatest all

time Politician by one of the USA Media houses, with the No 1 spot to be

announced soon – which I think will be Yasser Arafat as he is nowhere on

the rest of the top 10 list.

The other reason for the importance of this chart, other

than Mandela’s greatness for what he has done for South Africa’s

liberation which since has been a catalyst of change in the rest of Africa, is

that with this Forum being , its fitting that we are able to showcase

someone from our shores so that Mandela’s chart can be used in Jyotish

books as a case study. I don’t think a detailed Jyotish analysis

has ever been done on Mandela, so this may just be a first.

Noel Tyl, a western astrologer, on behalf of Astrodatabank,

has rectified his birth time to 14:54. With the advanced rectification

techniques and skills we have in this forum, we could further attempt at

rectifying his birth time or at least the Nav. I have posted the recommended

time and attached a biography to assist you all. I am currently searching

for dates of his 3 marriages and details of all his children – will post

it when I get it

Thanks again for participating and look forward to the

analysis. Please DO state the obvious as there are some beginners on the

forum who can learn.

Swee… What do you get for possible Rasi for Lagna

using Nasta Jataka

Regards

Bipin

Ps: Birth Data for those that don’t receive

attachments

Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela

DOB: 18 July 1918

Time: 14h54, EET, (GMT +2hrs) no daylight saving

Place: Qunu, Umtata,

South Africa,

28E37, 31S45 (verified with GPS)

Astrodatabank rating = DD

*******************************************************************

The e-mail and attachments are confidential and intended only for selected

recipients. If you have received it in error, you may not in any way disclose

or rely on the contents. You may not keep, copy or distribute the e-mail. Should

you receive it, immediately notify the sender of the error and delete the

e-mail.Also note that this form of communication is not secure, it can be

intercepted, and may not necessarily be free of errors and viruses in spite of

reasonable efforts to secure this medium.

*******************************************************************

May 25, 2005

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Swee

Could you please send us the Prasna chart

to determine the Nasta Jataka so that we can follow and understand the

principle you have applied for practice purposes.

As regards your other question re which

Navamsa I think fits him looking at his face – I haven’t a clue as

to what text or basis to use – Im still green on Navamsa. Could you

please guide me as to where to read it up. I was just thinking about this

at the weekend and thought of compiling a database of combinations and

faces. This must be a great rectification tool if mastered

correctly. Whats amazing about Jyotish is that there are so many different

techniques one can apply to confirm a chart. Next thing to learn would be

Palmistry

All the Best

Bipin

On Behalf Of Swee Chan

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 4:22

PM

RE: [Jaya Jagannatha]

Nelson Mandela's Chart

Jaya

Jagannatha

Dear Bipin,

Hare Krishna

Nasta Jataka

prsna indicates Aquarius lagna with AK Moon. GL on the ascendant. Looking at

his face, which navamsa do you think fits him? I have adjusted the time

according to the degree rising.

Love,

Swee

On Behalf Of Bipin Prag

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 3:00

PM

[Jaya Jagannatha] Nelson

Mandela's Chart

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear List Members

From time to time, many great personalities are born, Nelson

Mandela is one of them. As students of astrologers, we rely on these

souls to assist us in our quest to perfect our techniques and improve our

skills. Nelson Mandela was recently quoted as 8th greatest all

time Politician by one of the USA Media houses, with the No 1 spot to be

announced soon – which I think will be Yasser Arafat as he is nowhere on

the rest of the top 10 list.

The other reason for the importance of this chart, other

than Mandela’s greatness for what he has done for South Africa’s

liberation which since has been a catalyst of change in the rest of Africa, is

that with this Forum being , its fitting that we are able to showcase

someone from our shores so that Mandela’s chart can be used in Jyotish

books as a case study. I don’t think a detailed Jyotish analysis

has ever been done on Mandela, so this may just be a first.

Noel Tyl, a western astrologer, on behalf of Astrodatabank,

has rectified his birth time to 14:54. With the advanced rectification

techniques and skills we have in this forum, we could further attempt at

rectifying his birth time or at least the Nav. I have posted the

recommended time and attached a biography to assist you all. I am

currently searching for dates of his 3 marriages and details of all his

children – will post it when I get it

Thanks again for participating and look forward to the

analysis. Please DO state the obvious as there are some beginners on the

forum who can learn.

Swee… What do you get for possible Rasi for Lagna

using Nasta Jataka

Regards

Bipin

Ps: Birth Data for those that don’t receive

attachments

Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela

DOB: 18 July 1918

Time: 14h54, EET, (GMT +2hrs) no daylight saving

Place: Qunu, Umtata,

South Africa, 28E37,

31S45 (verified with GPS)

Astrodatabank rating = DD

*******************************************************************

The e-mail and attachments are confidential and intended only for selected

recipients. If you have received it in error, you may not in any way disclose

or rely on the contents. You may not keep, copy or distribute the e-mail.

Should you receive it, immediately notify the sender of the error and delete the

e-mail.Also note that this form of communication is not secure, it can be

intercepted, and may not necessarily be free of errors and viruses in spite of

reasonable efforts to secure this medium.

*******************************************************************

May 25, 2005

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Bipin,

Hare Krishna

Here’s

the chart. Many classics have hoards of data on Navamsa

and traits.

Love,

Swee

On Behalf Of Bipin Prag

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 6:18

PM

[Jaya Jagannatha] RE:

Nelson Mandela's Chart

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Swee

Could you please send us the Prasna chart

to determine the Nasta Jataka so that we can follow and understand the

principle you have applied for practice purposes.

As regards your other question re which Navamsa

I think fits him looking at his face – I haven’t a clue as to what

text or basis to use – Im still green on Navamsa. Could you please

guide me as to where to read it up. I was just thinking about this at the

weekend and thought of compiling a database of combinations and faces.

This must be a great rectification tool if mastered correctly. Whats

amazing about Jyotish is that there are so many different techniques one can

apply to confirm a chart. Next thing to learn would be Palmistry

All the Best

Bipin

On Behalf Of Swee Chan

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 4:22

PM

RE: [Jaya Jagannatha]

Nelson Mandela's Chart

Jaya

Jagannatha

Dear Bipin,

Hare Krishna

Nasta Jataka

prsna indicates Aquarius lagna with AK Moon. GL on the ascendant. Looking at

his face, which navamsa do you think fits him? I have adjusted the time

according to the degree rising.

Love,

Swee

On Behalf Of Bipin Prag

Wednesday, May 25, 2005 3:00

PM

[Jaya Jagannatha] Nelson

Mandela's Chart

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear List Members

From time to time, many great personalities are born, Nelson

Mandela is one of them. As students of astrologers, we rely on these

souls to assist us in our quest to perfect our techniques and improve our

skills. Nelson Mandela was recently quoted as 8th greatest all

time Politician by one of the USA Media houses, with the No 1 spot to be

announced soon – which I think will be Yasser Arafat as he is nowhere on

the rest of the top 10 list.

The other reason for the importance of this chart, other

than Mandela’s greatness for what he has done for South Africa’s

liberation which since has been a catalyst of change in the rest of Africa, is

that with this Forum being , its fitting that we are able to showcase

someone from our shores so that Mandela’s chart can be used in Jyotish

books as a case study. I don’t think a detailed Jyotish analysis

has ever been done on Mandela, so this may just be a first.

Noel Tyl, a western astrologer, on behalf of Astrodatabank,

has rectified his birth time to 14:54. With the advanced rectification

techniques and skills we have in this forum, we could further attempt at

rectifying his birth time or at least the Nav. I have posted the

recommended time and attached a biography to assist you all. I am

currently searching for dates of his 3 marriages and details of all his

children – will post it when I get it

Thanks again for participating and look forward to the

analysis. Please DO state the obvious as there are some beginners on the

forum who can learn.

Swee… What do you get for possible Rasi for Lagna

using Nasta Jataka

Regards

Bipin

Ps: Birth Data for those that don’t receive

attachments

Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela

DOB: 18 July 1918

Time: 14h54, EET, (GMT +2hrs) no daylight saving

Place: Qunu, Umtata,

South Africa,

28E37, 31S45 (verified with GPS)

Astrodatabank rating = DD

*******************************************************************

The e-mail and attachments are confidential and intended only for selected

recipients. If you have received it in error, you may not in any way disclose

or rely on the contents. You may not keep, copy or distribute the e-mail.

Should you receive it, immediately notify the sender of the error and delete

the e-mail.Also note that this form of communication is not secure, it can be

intercepted, and may not necessarily be free of errors and viruses in spite of

reasonable efforts to secure this medium.

*******************************************************************

May 26, 2005

Dear Swee

I had done Nelson Mandela chart long back (two years back in hyderabad study circle), and i clearly remember that he was sagi lagna with mars in 10th.

best wishes

partha

On 5/25/05, Swee Chan <swee wrote:

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Bipin,

Hare Krishna

Here's the chart. Many classics have hoards of data on Navamsa and traits.

Love,

Swee

On Behalf Of Bipin PragWednesday, May 25, 2005 6:18 PM

Subject: [Jaya Jagannatha] RE: Nelson Mandela's Chart

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Swee

Could you please send us the Prasna chart to determine the Nasta Jataka so that we can follow and understand the principle you have applied for practice purposes.

As regards your other question re which Navamsa I think fits him looking at his face – I haven't a clue as to what text or basis to use – Im still green on Navamsa. Could you please guide me as to where to read it up. I was just thinking about this at the weekend and thought of compiling a database of combinations and faces. This must be a great rectification tool if mastered correctly. Whats amazing about Jyotish is that there are so many different techniques one can apply to confirm a chart. Next thing to learn would be Palmistry

All the Best

Bipin

On Behalf Of Swee ChanWednesday, May 25, 2005 4:22 PM

Subject: RE: [Jaya Jagannatha] Nelson Mandela's Chart

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Bipin,

Hare Krishna

Nasta Jataka prsna indicates Aquarius lagna with AK Moon. GL on the ascendant. Looking at his face, which navamsa do you think fits him? I have adjusted the time according to the degree rising.

Love,

Swee

On Behalf Of Bipin PragWednesday, May 25, 2005 3:00 PM

Subject: [Jaya Jagannatha] Nelson Mandela's Chart

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear List Members

From time to time, many great personalities are born, Nelson Mandela is one of them. As students of astrologers, we rely on these souls to assist us in our quest to perfect our techniques and improve our skills. Nelson Mandela was recently quoted as 8

th greatest all time Politician by one of the USA Media houses, with the No 1 spot to be announced soon – which I think will be Yasser Arafat as he is nowhere on the rest of the top 10 list.

The other reason for the importance of this chart, other than Mandela's greatness for what he has done for South Africa's liberation which since has been a catalyst of change in the rest of Africa, is that with this Forum being , its fitting that we are able to showcase someone from our shores so that Mandela's chart can be used in Jyotish books as a case study. I don't think a detailed Jyotish analysis has ever been done on Mandela, so this may just be a first.

Noel Tyl, a western astrologer, on behalf of Astrodatabank, has rectified his birth time to 14:54. With the advanced rectification techniques and skills we have in this forum, we could further attempt at rectifying his birth time or at least the Nav. I have posted the recommended time and attached a biography to assist you all. I am currently searching for dates of his 3 marriages and details of all his children – will post it when I get it

Thanks again for participating and look forward to the analysis. Please DO state the obvious as there are some beginners on the forum who can learn.

Swee… What do you get for possible Rasi for Lagna using Nasta Jataka

Regards

Bipin

Ps: Birth Data for those that don't receive attachments

Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela

DOB: 18 July 1918

Time: 14h54, EET, (GMT +2hrs) no daylight saving

Place: Qunu, Umtata, South Africa, 28E37, 31S45 (verified with GPS)

Astrodatabank rating = DD

*******************************************************************The e-mail and attachments are confidential and intended only for selected recipients. If you have received it in error, you may not in any way disclose or rely on the contents. You may not keep, copy or distribute the e-mail. Should you receive it, immediately notify the sender of the error and delete the e-mail.Also note that this form of communication is not secure, it can be intercepted, and may not necessarily be free of errors and viruses in spite of reasonable efforts to secure this medium.*******************************************************************

-- V.Partha Sarathy,

partvinu.blogspot.comAll that we are is the result of what we have thought. If a man speaks or acts with an evil thought, pain follows him. If a man speaks or acts with a pure thought, happiness follows him, like a shadow that never leaves him. -----Buddha Plot.no.71Road No.3Nagarjuna HillsHyderabadIndia-500 082

June 5, 2005

Jaya

Jagannatha

Dear

Sanjay ji,

Namaste

With the 19:42:30 birth time, Kunda lagna goes to Gemini (trinal

house). The 5 mahayogadas with the Aquarius lagna lord in the 6th, gives him dimantha yoga, whose dispositor

is AK, well placed in the 9th. The 8th from UL is Virgo;

this indicates Winnie, the 2nd wife. With the 8th lord in the 6th

and VRY, she became quite powerful as this conjoins A5 (his followers) who

carried out a lot of atrocities even to their own people.

With

Aquarius ascendant, his AL

goes to Jupiter as the lord and conjoins Venus in the 5th from lagna. Kaunda (Zambia) was his

biggest ally and the 6 to 6 daily curfew over here was the order of the day…………and

we still have to contend with the grenades and landmines in residential areas. A

straight road and several kilometers further down from where my farm is located,

was a training ground in readiness for guerilla warfare. This can be seen in

the 6th from AL

with Ketu.

With

a night birth, the karaka for father goes to Saturn, whose dispositor

is Moon in the 9th.

Navamsa

Jataka Bharnam states that Libra lagnamsa

gives (“tall”) thighs. He is unusually tall for an African with kind sweeping

eyes to go with the Libra lagna in navamsa. He never became the chief as he was still in

school and later was imprisoned…….. AK and Venus conjoin in trines (9th

house) and in rasi dristi

to Ketu (chiefdom).

In

1991, during the reign of his AK lord in the 11th from AL, he became President

of RSA. Sun goes to the 10th in direct aspect to Saturn in its own

sign.

Dasamsa:

Pisces

rises. Trilochana yoga with the involvement of Sun as

the yogada exchanges with Jupiter between the 1st

and 6th lord. The GL and SL lord goes to Moon in its own sign in the

5th.

Love,

Swee

On Behalf Of Pt. Sanjay Rath

Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:25

AM

bipinprag

Cc:

Re:[Jaya Jagannatha]

Nelson Mandela's Chart

om namo bhagavate vâsudevâya

Dear Bipin

It is very difficult

for me to accept that the ONLY politician in the world who lived up to

satyagraha or the path of truth other than Gandhi should have the atmakaraka

Venus in a dusthana from lagna (OK) and navamsa lagna (impossible). This is not

acceptable. The time is definitely wrong. Can we have the closest recorded

time?

Consider this -

1. He was the son of a

village (Ketu) chief/king (Venus) and atmakaraka (Venus/King) is conjoined Ketu

(village) and should have direct contact with the navamsa lagna - so the

navamsa lagna has to be a dual sign.

2. Father died in age

10 in second shoola dasa. Possible lagna in the rasi chart based on this are

(1) Sagittarius, (2) Gemini (3) Aries (4) Libra

3. Initiation at 16 in

Aquarius Narayana dasa - Aq is 3rd house showing some spiritual initiation, Aq

has GL and HL and its lord Saturn is joined the nipuna yoga and

dharma-karmadhipati rajayoga in the 8th house (inheritance). [Confirms the

possibility of Sagittarius or Gemini Lagna]

Dwi-saptati sama dasa

(applicable if lagna lord is in 7th or 7th lord is in lagna):

Maha Dasas:

Sun:

1913-06-16 - 1922-06-16

Moon: 1922-06-16 - 1931-06-17

Mars: 1931-06-17 - 1940-06-16

Merc: 1940-06-16 - 1949-06-16

Jup: 1949-06-16 - 1958-06-17

Ven: 1958-06-17 - 1967-06-17

Sat: 1967-06-17 - 1976-06-16

Rah: 1976-06-16 - 1985-06-17

Please check the other

events and get the dasa/antardasa based on Sagittarius lagna, Virgo navamsa

lagna - note the tapaswi yoga in trines to the navams alagna in Virgo. The

great freedom struggle is among the greaest tapasya seen in the last century.

Best wishes

Sanjay Rath

15B Gangaram Hospital Road, New Delhi

110060 India

Phone +91-11-25717162, http://srath.com

-

Bipin

Prag [bipin.prag]

Wednesday, May 25,

2005 06:31 PM:

[Jaya Jagannatha]

Nelson Mandela's Chart

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear List Members

From time to time, many great personalities are born, Nelson

Mandela is one of them. As students of astrologers, we rely on these

souls to assist us in our quest to perfect our techniques and improve our

skills. Nelson Mandela was recently quoted as 8th greatest all

time Politician by one of the USA Media houses, with the No 1 spot to be

announced soon which I think will be

Yasser Arafat as he is nowhere on the rest of the top 10 list.

The other reason for the importance of this chart, other

than Mandelas greatness for what he has done for South Africas

liberation which since has been a catalyst of change in the rest of Africa, is

that with this Forum being ,

its fitting that we are able to showcase someone from our shores so that

Mandelas chart can be used in Jyotish books as a case study. I

dont think a detailed Jyotish analysis has ever been done on Mandela, so

this may just be a first.

Noel Tyl, a western astrologer, on behalf of Astrodatabank,

has rectified his birth time to 14:54. With the advanced rectification

techniques and skills we have in this forum, we could further attempt at

rectifying his birth time or at least the Nav. I have posted the

recommended time and attached a biography to assist you all. I am

currently searching for dates of his 3 marriages and details of all his

children will post it when I get it

Thanks again for participating and look forward to the

analysis. Please DO state the obvious as there are some beginners on the

forum who can learn.

Swee What do you get for possible Rasi for Lagna using Nasta

Jataka

Regards

Bipin

Ps: Birth Data for those that dont receive

attachments

Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela

DOB: 18 July 1918

Time: 14h54, EET, (GMT +2hrs) no daylight saving

Place: Qunu, Umtata,

South Africa,

28E37, 31S45 (verified with GPS)

Astrodatabank rating = DD

*******************************************************************

The e-mail and attachments are confidential and intended only for selected

recipients. If you have received it in error, you may not in any way disclose

or rely on the contents. You may not keep, copy or distribute the e-mail.

Should you receive it, immediately notify the sender of the error and delete

the e-mail.Also note that this form of communication is not secure, it can be

intercepted, and may not necessarily be free of errors and viruses in spite of

reasonable efforts to secure this medium.

*******************************************************************

June 6, 2005

Dear Swee

Your points are valid, but the world, including this part of the

world sees him as a person jailed for 26 years and also as a Gandhian

who worked for the independence and freedom of his people.

He might have indulged in other activities, cant we see that from

Sagi lagna itself?

Infact even i am Sagi lagna and Virgo Navamsa lagna person, :-)) and

thus my preference for him being sagi lagna is even more biased :-)

best wishes

partha

, " Swee Chan " <swee@c...> wrote:

> Jaya Jagannatha

>

> Dear Sanjay ji,

> Namaste

>

> With the 19:42:30 birth time, Kunda lagna goes to Gemini (trinal

house). The

> 5 mahayogadas with the Aquarius lagna lord in the 6th, gives him

dimantha

> yoga, whose dispositor is AK, well placed in the 9th. The 8th from

UL is

> Virgo; this indicates Winnie, the 2nd wife. With the 8th lord in

the 6th

> and VRY, she became quite powerful as this conjoins A5 (his

followers) who

> carried out a lot of atrocities even to their own people.

> With Aquarius ascendant, his AL goes to Jupiter as the lord and

conjoins

> Venus in the 5th from lagna. Kaunda (Zambia) was his biggest ally

and the 6

> to 6 daily curfew over here was the order of the day…………and we

still have to

> contend with the grenades and landmines in residential areas. A

straight

> road and several kilometers further down from where my farm is

located, was

> a training ground in readiness for guerilla warfare. This can be

seen in the

> 6th from AL with Ketu.

> With a night birth, the karaka for father goes to Saturn, whose

dispositor

> is Moon in the 9th.

>

> Navamsa

> Jataka Bharnam states that Libra lagnamsa gives ( " tall " ) thighs. He

is

> unusually tall for an African with kind sweeping eyes to go with

the Libra

> lagna in navamsa. He never became the chief as he was still in

school and

> later was imprisoned…….. AK and Venus conjoin in trines (9th house)

and in

> rasi dristi to Ketu (chiefdom).

> In 1991, during the reign of his AK lord in the 11th from AL, he

became

> President of RSA. Sun goes to the 10th in direct aspect to Saturn

in its own

> sign.

>

> Dasamsa:

> Pisces rises. Trilochana yoga with the involvement of Sun as the

yogada

> exchanges with Jupiter between the 1st and 6th lord. The GL and SL

lord goes

> to Moon in its own sign in the 5th.

>

> Love,

> Swee

>

> _____

>

> [sJC-

Africa ] On

> Behalf Of Pt. Sanjay Rath

> Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:25 AM

> bipinprag

> Cc:

> Re:[Jaya Jagannatha] Nelson Mandela's Chart

>

> om namo bhagavate vâsudevâya

> Dear Bipin

> It is very difficult for me to accept that the ONLY politician in

the world

> who lived up to satyagraha or the path of truth other than Gandhi

should

> have the atmakaraka Venus in a dusthana from lagna (OK) and navamsa

lagna

> (impossible). This is not acceptable. The time is definitely wrong.

Can we

> have the closest recorded time?

> Consider this -

> 1. He was the son of a village (Ketu) chief/king (Venus) and

atmakaraka

> (Venus/King) is conjoined Ketu (village) and should have direct

contact with

> the navamsa lagna - so the navamsa lagna has to be a dual sign.

> 2. Father died in age 10 in second shoola dasa. Possible lagna in

the rasi

> chart based on this are (1) Sagittarius, (2) Gemini (3) Aries (4)

Libra

> 3. Initiation at 16 in Aquarius Narayana dasa - Aq is 3rd house

showing some

> spiritual initiation, Aq has GL and HL and its lord Saturn is

joined the

> nipuna yoga and dharma-karmadhipati rajayoga in the 8th house

(inheritance).

> [Confirms the possibility of Sagittarius or Gemini Lagna]

> Dwi-saptati sama dasa (applicable if lagna lord is in 7th or 7th

lord is in

> lagna):

> Maha Dasas:

> Sun: 1913-06-16 - 1922-06-16

> Moon: 1922-06-16 - 1931-06-17

> Mars: 1931-06-17 - 1940-06-16

> Merc: 1940-06-16 - 1949-06-16

> Jup: 1949-06-16 - 1958-06-17

> Ven: 1958-06-17 - 1967-06-17

> Sat: 1967-06-17 - 1976-06-16

> Rah: 1976-06-16 - 1985-06-17

> Please check the other events and get the dasa/antardasa based on

> Sagittarius lagna, Virgo navamsa lagna - note the tapaswi yoga in

trines to

> the navams alagna in Virgo. The great freedom struggle is among the

greaest

> tapasya seen in the last century.

> Best wishes

> Sanjay Rath

>

> 15B Gangaram Hospital Road, New Delhi 110060 India

> Phone +91-11-25717162, http://srath.com <http://srath.com/>

>

> -

> Bipin <bipin.prag@l...> Prag

> [bipin.prag@l...]

>

> Wednesday, May 25, 2005 06:31 PM:

> [Jaya Jagannatha] Nelson Mandela's Chart

>

> Jaya Jagannatha

>

> Dear List Members

>

> From time to time, many great personalities are born, Nelson

Mandela is one

> of them. As students of astrologers, we rely on these souls to

assist us in

> our quest to perfect our techniques and improve our skills. Nelson

Mandela

> was recently quoted as 8th greatest all time Politician by one of

the USA

> Media houses, with the No 1 spot to be announced soon which I

think will be

> Yasser Arafat as he is nowhere on the rest of the top 10 list.

>

> The other reason for the importance of this chart, other than

Mandelas

> greatness for what he has done for South Africas liberation which

since has

> been a catalyst of change in the rest of Africa, is that with this

Forum

> being , its fitting that we are able to showcase someone

from our

> shores so that Mandelas chart can be used in Jyotish books as a

case study.

> I dont think a detailed Jyotish analysis has ever been done on

Mandela, so

> this may just be a first.

>

> Noel Tyl, a western astrologer, on behalf of Astrodatabank, has

rectified

> his birth time to 14:54. With the advanced rectification

techniques and

> skills we have in this forum, we could further attempt at

rectifying his

> birth time or at least the Nav. I have posted the recommended time

and

> attached a biography to assist you all. I am currently searching

for dates

> of his 3 marriages and details of all his children will post it

when I get

> it

>

> Thanks again for participating and look forward to the analysis.

Please DO

> state the obvious as there are some beginners on the forum who can

learn.

>

> Swee What do you get for possible Rasi for Lagna using Nasta Jataka

>

> Regards

>

> Bipin

>

> Ps: Birth Data for those that dont receive attachments

>

> Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela

> DOB: 18 July 1918

> Time: 14h54, EET, (GMT +2hrs) no daylight saving

> Place: Qunu, Umtata, South Africa, 28E37, 31S45 (verified with GPS)

> Astrodatabank rating = DD

>

> *******************************************************************

>

> The e-mail and attachments are confidential and intended only for

selected

> recipients. If you have received it in error, you may not in any way

> disclose or rely on the contents. You may not keep, copy or

distribute the

> e-mail. Should you receive it, immediately notify the sender of the

error

> and delete the e-mail.Also note that this form of communication is

not

> secure, it can be intercepted, and may not necessarily be free of

errors and

> viruses in spite of reasonable efforts to secure this medium.

>

> *******************************************************************

>

> _____

>

June 6, 2005

Dear Sir,

I'm not sure where to draw the line because this is an astro group, but I couldn't stop myself, since I see repeated comparisons of Mandela to someone like Gandhi. Gandhi, you must remember, fought for his land; South Africa is not really Mandela's.

One thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is that southern Africa was colonized by congoids almost concurrently as it was colonized by Europeans, both displacing the native capoid hunter gatherers. This is why southern Africa has such a large proportion of descendants of European settlers compared to other parts of sub-saharan Africa. It is perfectly plausible to argue that at one time South Africa was majority white! Yes, negroids reached parts of South Africa before whites, but they were still quite recent arrivals when the European settlers came. Essentially the capoids where sandwiched between two sets of colonisers, negroids to the north and caucasoids to the south.

Bantu is an ethnic and linguistic group of Africa, numbering about 120 million. The Bantu inhabit most of the continent south of the Congo River except the extreme southwest. The classification is primarily linguistic, and there are almost a hundred Bantu languages, including Luganda, Zulu, and Swahili. Few cultural generalizations concerning the Bantu can be made. Before the European conquest of Africa the Bantu tribes were either pastoral and warlike or agricultural and usually pacific. There were some highly developed Bantu states, including Buganda in present-day Uganda. Possibly under the fear of European encroachment, several additional Bantu states developed in the 19th cent., notably among the Zulu and the Sotho. Other well-known Bantu tribes include the Ndebele (Matabele) and the Shona. In South Africa, the term Bantu is commonly used to refer to the native African population, which was subject to the policies of apartheid.

There are two basic theories of Bantu origins, that of Joseph Greenberg and Malcolm Guthrie, which is not a bit relevant here.

For the Bantu today, the accepted truth is a synthesis of these theories. The Bantu first originated around the Benue-Cross rivers area in southeastern Nigeria and spread over Africa to the Zambia area. Sometime in the second millennium BC, perhaps triggered by the drying of the Sahara and pressure from the migration of Saharans into the region, they were forced to expand into the rainforests of central Africa (phase I). About 1000 years later they began a more rapid second phase of expansion beyond the forests into southern and eastern Africa. Then sometime in the first millennium new agricultural techniques and plants were developed in Zambia, likely imported from South East Asia via Malay speaking Madagascar. With these techniques another Bantu expansion occurred centered on this new location (phase III). By about 1,000 AD it had reached modern day Zimbabwe and South Africa. In Zimbabwe the first major southern hemisphere empire was established, with its capital at Great Zimbabwe. It controlled trading routes from South Africa to north of the Zambezi, trading gold, copper, precious stones, animal hides, ivory and metal goods with the Arab traders of the Swahili coast. By the 14th or 15th centuries the Empire had surpassed its resources and had collapsed, with the city of Great Zimbabwe being abandoned. They couldn't spread southwards because their cattle and plants were not adapted to the Mediterranean climate. It was Huguenots who brought the Mediterranean techniques to South Africa. The Bantu were divided into different clans, not around national federations, but independent groups from some hundreds to thousands of individuals. The smallest unit of the Bantu organisational structure formed the household, or Kraal, consisting of a man, woman or women, and their children, as well as other relatives living in the same household. The man was the head of the household and often had many wives; he had complete authority over the family. The household and close relations generally played an important role in the life of the Bantu. Households which resided in the same valley or on the same hill were also an organisational unit, managed by a sub-chief.

The chief was hereditary. With most clans the eldest son inherited the office of his father. With some clans the office was left to the oldest brother of the deceased chief, and after his death again the next oldest brother. This repeated until the last brother had deceased.

The Bantu is divided into four main groups: Nguni, Sotho, Venda and Shangana Tsonga, with the Nguni represented the largest group. These are divided as follows:

Nguni

- Northern Nguni

Swazi and Zulu

- Southern Nguni

Mfengu, Mpondo, Mpondomise, Thembu, Xhosa, Shangana, Tsonga, Sotho, Basotho (also: Southern Sotho), Northern Sotho, Lobedu, Pedi, Tswana (also: Western Sotho), Venda and Lemba.

Now Nelson Mandela is the son of the chief of one of these myriad tribes, the Thembu. So how does this make South Africa his land?? If at all, it belongs to the capoid hunters. But where are they today?

Shades of the USA, isn't it?

Respects,

Ramapriya

On 6/6/05, V.Partha sarathy <partvinu wrote:

Dear SweeYour points are valid, but the world, including this part of the world sees him as a person jailed for 26 years and also as a Gandhian who worked for the independence and freedom of his people.He might have indulged in other activities, cant we see that from Sagi lagna itself?Infact even i am Sagi lagna and Virgo Navamsa lagna person, :-)) and thus my preference for him being sagi lagna is even more biased :-)best wishespartha

June 6, 2005

Dear Ramapriya

That was quite detailed description of the various tribes. But people watching the freedom movement will not see his caste much, but rather what he has done, or atleast percieved to be doing.

May be he is not a Gandhian, but that is how many people all over the world know him. he has got peace prizes, may be these are all arudhas, but still this is how he is being judged.

best wishes

partha

On 6/6/05, Ramapriya D <ayirpamar wrote:

Dear Sir,

I'm not sure where to draw the line because this is an astro group, but I couldn't stop myself, since I see repeated comparisons of Mandela to someone like Gandhi. Gandhi, you must remember, fought for his land; South Africa is not really Mandela's.

One thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is that southern Africa was colonized by congoids almost concurrently as it was colonized by Europeans, both displacing the native capoid hunter gatherers. This is why southern Africa has such a large proportion of descendants of European settlers compared to other parts of sub-saharan Africa. It is perfectly plausible to argue that at one time South Africa was majority white! Yes, negroids reached parts of South Africa before whites, but they were still quite recent arrivals when the European settlers came. Essentially the capoids where sandwiched between two sets of colonisers, negroids to the north and caucasoids to the south.

Bantu is an ethnic and linguistic group of Africa, numbering about 120 million. The Bantu inhabit most of the continent south of the Congo River except the extreme southwest. The classification is primarily linguistic, and there are almost a hundred Bantu languages, including Luganda, Zulu, and Swahili. Few cultural generalizations concerning the Bantu can be made. Before the European conquest of Africa the Bantu tribes were either pastoral and warlike or agricultural and usually pacific. There were some highly developed Bantu states, including Buganda in present-day Uganda. Possibly under the fear of European encroachment, several additional Bantu states developed in the 19th cent., notably among the Zulu and the Sotho. Other well-known Bantu tribes include the Ndebele (Matabele) and the Shona. In South Africa, the term Bantu is commonly used to refer to the native African population, which was subject to the policies of apartheid.

There are two basic theories of Bantu origins, that of Joseph Greenberg and Malcolm Guthrie, which is not a bit relevant here.

For the Bantu today, the accepted truth is a synthesis of these theories. The Bantu first originated around the Benue-Cross rivers area in southeastern Nigeria and spread over Africa to the Zambia area. Sometime in the second millennium BC, perhaps triggered by the drying of the Sahara and pressure from the migration of Saharans into the region, they were forced to expand into the rainforests of central Africa (phase I). About 1000 years later they began a more rapid second phase of expansion beyond the forests into southern and eastern Africa. Then sometime in the first millennium new agricultural techniques and plants were developed in Zambia, likely imported from South East Asia via Malay speaking Madagascar. With these techniques another Bantu expansion occurred centered on this new location (phase III). By about 1,000 AD it had reached modern day Zimbabwe and South Africa. In Zimbabwe the first major southern hemisphere empire was established, with its capital at Great Zimbabwe. It controlled trading routes from South Africa to north of the Zambezi, trading gold, copper, precious stones, animal hides, ivory and metal goods with the Arab traders of the Swahili coast. By the 14th or 15th centuries the Empire had surpassed its resources and had collapsed, with the city of Great Zimbabwe being abandoned. They couldn't spread southwards because their cattle and plants were not adapted to the Mediterranean climate. It was Huguenots who brought the Mediterranean techniques to South Africa. The Bantu were divided into different clans, not around national federations, but independent groups from some hundreds to thousands of individuals. The smallest unit of the Bantu organisational structure formed the household, or Kraal, consisting of a man, woman or women, and their children, as well as other relatives living in the same household. The man was the head of the household and often had many wives; he had complete authority over the family. The household and close relations generally played an important role in the life of the Bantu. Households which resided in the same valley or on the same hill were also an organisational unit, managed by a sub-chief.

The chief was hereditary. With most clans the eldest son inherited the office of his father. With some clans the office was left to the oldest brother of the deceased chief, and after his death again the next oldest brother. This repeated until the last brother had deceased.

The Bantu is divided into four main groups: Nguni, Sotho, Venda and Shangana Tsonga, with the Nguni represented the largest group. These are divided as follows:

Nguni

- Northern Nguni

Swazi and Zulu

- Southern Nguni

Mfengu, Mpondo, Mpondomise, Thembu, Xhosa, Shangana, Tsonga, Sotho, Basotho (also: Southern Sotho), Northern Sotho, Lobedu, Pedi, Tswana (also: Western Sotho), Venda and Lemba.

Now Nelson Mandela is the son of the chief of one of these myriad tribes, the Thembu. So how does this make South Africa his land?? If at all, it belongs to the capoid hunters. But where are they today?

Shades of the USA, isn't it?

Respects,

Ramapriya

On 6/6/05, V.Partha sarathy <partvinu

> wrote: Dear SweeYour points are valid, but the world, including this part of the world sees him as a person jailed for 26 years and also as a Gandhian who worked for the independence and freedom of his people.He might have indulged in other activities, cant we see that from Sagi lagna itself?Infact even i am Sagi lagna and Virgo Navamsa lagna person, :-)) and thus my preference for him being sagi lagna is even more biased :-)best wishespartha

June 6, 2005

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Rampriya

I have read your post and have to disagree with some of your

statements which unfortunately do not represent the true facts.

Please dont misread my comment, that this is a similar debate along

the lines of the Aryan invasion theory - so I would like to leave it

there.

Unfortunately, there is no astrological discussion here, so if you

dont mind I recommend that we all cut this 'political' aspect of the

thread, thanks. Im happy to engage offline if you so wish to get my

perspective.

All the Best

Bipin

June 6, 2005

Sure, sir. You've the right to say so too, since you own the Group.

Planned to reply Partha too off-list and will CC you

Ramapriya

ayirpamar

On 6/6/05, bipinprag <bipin.prag wrote:

Jaya JagannathaIm happy to engage offline if you so wish to get my perspective.All the Best

Bipin

June 6, 2005

You mean the willing terrorist who, before being imprisoned, deserted his first wife, leaving her with two young children and no financial support? Who chose as his second wife a woman who turned out to be an embezzler, kidnapper and abuser of children? The Marxist ideologue who when making his first speech after being freed came out with hilariously dated hardcore Stalinist rhetoric, which habit had to be quickly stamped out by his PR men?

You're talking of that Mandela?

Ramapriya

ayirpamar

On 6/6/05, Partha Sarathy <partvinu wrote:

Dear Ramapriya

That was quite detailed description of the various tribes. But people watching the freedom movement will not see his caste much, but rather what he has done, or atleast percieved to be doing.

May be he is not a Gandhian, but that is how many people all over the world know him. he has got peace prizes, may be these are all arudhas, but still this is how he is being judged.

best wishes

partha

On 6/6/05, Ramapriya D <

ayirpamar wrote:

Dear Sir,

I'm not sure where to draw the line because this is an astro group, but I couldn't stop myself, since I see repeated comparisons of Mandela to someone like Gandhi. Gandhi, you must remember, fought for his land; South Africa is not really Mandela's.

One thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is that southern Africa was colonized by congoids almost concurrently as it was colonized by Europeans, both displacing the native capoid hunter gatherers. This is why southern Africa has such a large proportion of descendants of European settlers compared to other parts of sub-saharan Africa. It is perfectly plausible to argue that at one time South Africa was majority white! Yes, negroids reached parts of South Africa before whites, but they were still quite recent arrivals when the European settlers came. Essentially the capoids where sandwiched between two sets of colonisers, negroids to the north and caucasoids to the south.

Bantu is an ethnic and linguistic group of Africa, numbering about 120 million. The Bantu inhabit most of the continent south of the Congo River except the extreme southwest. The classification is primarily linguistic, and there are almost a hundred Bantu languages, including Luganda, Zulu, and Swahili. Few cultural generalizations concerning the Bantu can be made. Before the European conquest of Africa the Bantu tribes were either pastoral and warlike or agricultural and usually pacific. There were some highly developed Bantu states, including Buganda in present-day Uganda. Possibly under the fear of European encroachment, several additional Bantu states developed in the 19th cent., notably among the Zulu and the Sotho. Other well-known Bantu tribes include the Ndebele (Matabele) and the Shona. In South Africa, the term Bantu is commonly used to refer to the native African population, which was subject to the policies of apartheid.

There are two basic theories of Bantu origins, that of Joseph Greenberg and Malcolm Guthrie, which is not a bit relevant here.

For the Bantu today, the accepted truth is a synthesis of these theories. The Bantu first originated around the Benue-Cross rivers area in southeastern Nigeria and spread over Africa to the Zambia area. Sometime in the second millennium BC, perhaps triggered by the drying of the Sahara and pressure from the migration of Saharans into the region, they were forced to expand into the rainforests of central Africa (phase I). About 1000 years later they began a more rapid second phase of expansion beyond the forests into southern and eastern Africa. Then sometime in the first millennium new agricultural techniques and plants were developed in Zambia, likely imported from South East Asia via Malay speaking Madagascar. With these techniques another Bantu expansion occurred centered on this new location (phase III). By about 1,000 AD it had reached modern day Zimbabwe and South Africa. In Zimbabwe the first major southern hemisphere empire was established, with its capital at Great Zimbabwe. It controlled trading routes from South Africa to north of the Zambezi, trading gold, copper, precious stones, animal hides, ivory and metal goods with the Arab traders of the Swahili coast. By the 14th or 15th centuries the Empire had surpassed its resources and had collapsed, with the city of Great Zimbabwe being abandoned. They couldn't spread southwards because their cattle and plants were not adapted to the Mediterranean climate. It was Huguenots who brought the Mediterranean techniques to South Africa. The Bantu were divided into different clans, not around national federations, but independent groups from some hundreds to thousands of individuals. The smallest unit of the Bantu organisational structure formed the household, or Kraal, consisting of a man, woman or women, and their children, as well as other relatives living in the same household. The man was the head of the household and often had many wives; he had complete authority over the family. The household and close relations generally played an important role in the life of the Bantu. Households which resided in the same valley or on the same hill were also an organisational unit, managed by a sub-chief.

The chief was hereditary. With most clans the eldest son inherited the office of his father. With some clans the office was left to the oldest brother of the deceased chief, and after his death again the next oldest brother. This repeated until the last brother had deceased.

The Bantu is divided into four main groups: Nguni, Sotho, Venda and Shangana Tsonga, with the Nguni represented the largest group. These are divided as follows:

Nguni

- Northern Nguni

Swazi and Zulu

- Southern Nguni

Mfengu, Mpondo, Mpondomise, Thembu, Xhosa, Shangana, Tsonga, Sotho, Basotho (also: Southern Sotho), Northern Sotho, Lobedu, Pedi, Tswana (also: Western Sotho), Venda and Lemba.

Now Nelson Mandela is the son of the chief of one of these myriad tribes, the Thembu. So how does this make South Africa his land?? If at all, it belongs to the capoid hunters. But where are they today?

Shades of the USA, isn't it?

Respects,

Ramapriya

On 6/6/05, V.Partha sarathy <partvinu > wrote: Dear SweeYour points are valid, but the world, including this part of the world sees him as a person jailed for 26 years and also as a Gandhian who worked for the independence and freedom of his people.He might have indulged in other activities, cant we see that from Sagi lagna itself?Infact even i am Sagi lagna and Virgo Navamsa lagna person, :-)) and thus my preference for him being sagi lagna is even more biased :-)best wishespartha

June 6, 2005

Dear Rama

Actually this is getting little political. thank you for the interesting points which might help me to understand the situation in a different way

best wishes

partha

On 6/6/05, Ramapriya D <ayirpamar wrote:

You mean the willing terrorist who, before being imprisoned, deserted his first wife, leaving her with two young children and no financial support? Who chose as his second wife a woman who turned out to be an embezzler, kidnapper and abuser of children? The Marxist ideologue who when making his first speech after being freed came out with hilariously dated hardcore Stalinist rhetoric, which habit had to be quickly stamped out by his PR men?

You're talking of that Mandela?

Ramapriya

ayirpamar

On 6/6/05, Partha Sarathy <partvinu

> wrote:

Dear Ramapriya

That was quite detailed description of the various tribes. But people watching the freedom movement will not see his caste much, but rather what he has done, or atleast percieved to be doing.

May be he is not a Gandhian, but that is how many people all over the world know him. he has got peace prizes, may be these are all arudhas, but still this is how he is being judged.

best wishes

partha

On 6/6/05, Ramapriya D < ayirpamar

> wrote:

Dear Sir,

I'm not sure where to draw the line because this is an astro group, but I couldn't stop myself, since I see repeated comparisons of Mandela to someone like Gandhi. Gandhi, you must remember, fought for his land; South Africa is not really Mandela's.

One thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is that southern Africa was colonized by congoids almost concurrently as it was colonized by Europeans, both displacing the native capoid hunter gatherers. This is why southern Africa has such a large proportion of descendants of European settlers compared to other parts of sub-saharan Africa. It is perfectly plausible to argue that at one time South Africa was majority white! Yes, negroids reached parts of South Africa before whites, but they were still quite recent arrivals when the European settlers came. Essentially the capoids where sandwiched between two sets of colonisers, negroids to the north and caucasoids to the south.

Bantu is an ethnic and linguistic group of Africa, numbering about 120 million. The Bantu inhabit most of the continent south of the Congo River except the extreme southwest. The classification is primarily linguistic, and there are almost a hundred Bantu languages, including Luganda, Zulu, and Swahili. Few cultural generalizations concerning the Bantu can be made. Before the European conquest of Africa the Bantu tribes were either pastoral and warlike or agricultural and usually pacific. There were some highly developed Bantu states, including Buganda in present-day Uganda. Possibly under the fear of European encroachment, several additional Bantu states developed in the 19th cent., notably among the Zulu and the Sotho. Other well-known Bantu tribes include the Ndebele (Matabele) and the Shona. In South Africa, the term Bantu is commonly used to refer to the native African population, which was subject to the policies of apartheid.

There are two basic theories of Bantu origins, that of Joseph Greenberg and Malcolm Guthrie, which is not a bit relevant here.

For the Bantu today, the accepted truth is a synthesis of these theories. The Bantu first originated around the Benue-Cross rivers area in southeastern Nigeria and spread over Africa to the Zambia area. Sometime in the second millennium BC, perhaps triggered by the drying of the Sahara and pressure from the migration of Saharans into the region, they were forced to expand into the rainforests of central Africa (phase I). About 1000 years later they began a more rapid second phase of expansion beyond the forests into southern and eastern Africa. Then sometime in the first millennium new agricultural techniques and plants were developed in Zambia, likely imported from South East Asia via Malay speaking Madagascar. With these techniques another Bantu expansion occurred centered on this new location (phase III). By about 1,000 AD it had reached modern day Zimbabwe and South Africa. In Zimbabwe the first major southern hemisphere empire was established, with its capital at Great Zimbabwe. It controlled trading routes from South Africa to north of the Zambezi, trading gold, copper, precious stones, animal hides, ivory and metal goods with the Arab traders of the Swahili coast. By the 14th or 15th centuries the Empire had surpassed its resources and had collapsed, with the city of Great Zimbabwe being abandoned. They couldn't spread southwards because their cattle and plants were not adapted to the Mediterranean climate. It was Huguenots who brought the Mediterranean techniques to South Africa. The Bantu were divided into different clans, not around national federations, but independent groups from some hundreds to thousands of individuals. The smallest unit of the Bantu organisational structure formed the household, or Kraal, consisting of a man, woman or women, and their children, as well as other relatives living in the same household. The man was the head of the household and often had many wives; he had complete authority over the family. The household and close relations generally played an important role in the life of the Bantu. Households which resided in the same valley or on the same hill were also an organisational unit, managed by a sub-chief.

The chief was hereditary. With most clans the eldest son inherited the office of his father. With some clans the office was left to the oldest brother of the deceased chief, and after his death again the next oldest brother. This repeated until the last brother had deceased.

The Bantu is divided into four main groups: Nguni, Sotho, Venda and Shangana Tsonga, with the Nguni represented the largest group. These are divided as follows:

Nguni

- Northern Nguni

Swazi and Zulu

- Southern Nguni

Mfengu, Mpondo, Mpondomise, Thembu, Xhosa, Shangana, Tsonga, Sotho, Basotho (also: Southern Sotho), Northern Sotho, Lobedu, Pedi, Tswana (also: Western Sotho), Venda and Lemba.

Now Nelson Mandela is the son of the chief of one of these myriad tribes, the Thembu. So how does this make South Africa his land?? If at all, it belongs to the capoid hunters. But where are they today?

Shades of the USA, isn't it?

Respects,

Ramapriya

On 6/6/05, V.Partha sarathy <partvinu > wrote: Dear SweeYour points are valid, but the world, including this part of the world sees him as a person jailed for 26 years and also as a Gandhian who worked for the independence and freedom of his people.He might have indulged in other activities, cant we see that from Sagi lagna itself?Infact even i am Sagi lagna and Virgo Navamsa lagna person, :-)) and thus my preference for him being sagi lagna is even more biased :-)best wishespartha

June 6, 2005

Om Gurave Namah

Dear RD, Partha and Bipin,

Namaste

History does

not give reprieve. One day, like his son who died at 54 did not acknowledge the

inauguration because he dessert them. One will get up and write the REAL (an

not the romantic arudha of Sg J) of the person.

The original

people were from the Eastern Cape

known as Hottentots, Bantus or Bushmen (generally pygmies) mixed with Baloch or

the Jamali tribe where the Khosa tribe came from. But the origin of the Khosa

language/dialect is still replete with the Hottentot dialect/language.

Love,

Swee

On Behalf Of Ramapriya

D

Monday, June 06, 2005 10:34

AM

Re: [Jaya Jagannatha]

Nelson Mandela's Chart

You mean the willing terrorist who, before being imprisoned,

deserted his first wife, leaving her with two young children and no financial

support? Who chose as his second wife a woman who turned out to be an

embezzler, kidnapper and abuser of children? The Marxist ideologue who when

making his first speech after being freed came out with hilariously dated

hardcore Stalinist rhetoric, which habit had to be

quickly stamped out by his PR men?

You're talking of that Mandela?

Ramapriya

ayirpamar

On 6/6/05, Partha Sarathy <partvinu wrote:

Dear Ramapriya

That was quite detailed description of the various tribes. But people

watching the freedom movement will not see his caste much, but rather what he

has done, or atleast percieved to be doing.

May be he is not a Gandhian, but that is how many people all over the

world know him. he has got peace prizes, may be these are all arudhas, but

still this is how he is being judged.

best wishes

partha

On 6/6/05, Ramapriya D < ayirpamar

wrote:

Dear Sir,

I'm not sure where to draw the line because this is an astro group, but

I couldn't stop myself, since I see repeated comparisons of Mandela to someone

like Gandhi. Gandhi, you must remember, fought for his land; South Africa is

not really Mandela's.

One thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is that

southern Africa was colonized by congoids

almost concurrently as it was colonized by Europeans, both displacing the

native capoid hunter gatherers. This is why southern Africa has such a large

proportion of descendants of European settlers compared to other parts of

sub-saharan Africa. It is perfectly plausible

to argue that at one time South

Africa was majority white! Yes, negroids

reached parts of South

Africa before whites, but they were still

quite recent arrivals when the European settlers came. Essentially the capoids

where sandwiched between two sets of colonisers, negroids to the north and

caucasoids to the south.

Bantu is an ethnic and linguistic group of Africa,

numbering about 120 million. The Bantu inhabit most of the continent south

of the Congo River except the extreme

southwest. The classification is primarily linguistic, and there are almost a

hundred Bantu languages, including Luganda, Zulu, and Swahili. Few cultural

generalizations concerning the Bantu can be made. Before the European conquest

of Africa the Bantu tribes were either

pastoral and warlike or agricultural and usually pacific. There were some

highly developed Bantu states, including Buganda

in present-day Uganda.

Possibly under the fear of European encroachment, several additional Bantu

states developed in the 19th cent., notably among the Zulu and the Sotho. Other

well-known Bantu tribes include the Ndebele (Matabele) and the Shona. In South Africa,

the term Bantu is commonly used to refer to the native African population,

which was subject to the policies of apartheid.

There are two basic theories of Bantu origins, that of Joseph Greenberg

and Malcolm Guthrie, which is not a bit relevant here.

For the Bantu today, the accepted truth is a synthesis of these

theories. The Bantu first originated around the Benue-Cross rivers area in

southeastern Nigeria and

spread over Africa to the Zambia

area. Sometime in the second millennium BC, perhaps triggered by the drying of

the Sahara and pressure from the migration of Saharans into the region, they

were forced to expand into the rainforests of central Africa

(phase I). About 1000 years later they began a more rapid second phase of

expansion beyond the forests into southern and eastern Africa.

Then sometime in the first millennium new agricultural techniques and plants

were developed in Zambia,

likely imported from South East Asia via Malay speaking Madagascar.

With these techniques another Bantu expansion occurred centered on this new

location (phase III). By about 1,000 AD it had reached modern day Zimbabwe and South Africa. In Zimbabwe the

first major southern hemisphere empire was established, with its capital at G!

reat Zimbabwe.

It controlled trading routes from South Africa to north of the Zambezi, trading

gold, copper, precious stones, animal hides, ivory and metal goods with the

Arab traders of the Swahili coast. By the 14th or 15th centuries the Empire had

surpassed its resources and had collapsed, with the city of Great Zimbabwe being abandoned. They couldn't

spread southwards because their cattle and plants were not adapted to the

Mediterranean climate. It was Huguenots who brought the Mediterranean

techniques to South Africa.

The Bantu were divided into different clans, not around national federations,

but independent groups from some hundreds to thousands of individuals. The

smallest unit of the Bantu organisational structure formed the household, or

Kraal, consisting of a man, woman or women, and their children, as well as

other relatives living in the same household. The man was the head of the

household and often had many wives; he had complete authority over the family.

Th! e household and close relations generally played an important role in the

life of the Bantu. Households which resided in the same valley or on the same

hill were also an organisational unit, managed by a sub-chief.

The chief was hereditary. With most clans the eldest son inherited the

office of his father. With some clans the office was left to the oldest brother

of the deceased chief, and after his death again the next oldest brother. This

repeated until the last brother had deceased.

The Bantu

is divided into four main groups: Nguni, Sotho,

Venda and

Shangana Tsonga, with the Nguni represented the largest group. These are

divided as follows:

Nguni

-

Northern Nguni

Swazi and

Zulu

-

Southern Nguni

Mfengu,

Mpondo, Mpondomise, Thembu, Xhosa, Shangana, Tsonga, Sotho, Basotho (also:

Southern Sotho), Northern Sotho, Lobedu, Pedi, Tswana (also: Western Sotho), Venda and

Lemba.

Now

Nelson Mandela is the son of the chief of one of these myriad tribes, the Thembu.

So how does this make South Africa his land?? If at all, it belongs to

the capoid hunters. But where are they today?

Shades of

the USA,

isn't it?

Respects,

Ramapriya

On 6/6/05, V.Partha

sarathy <partvinu

> wrote:

Dear Swee

Your points are valid, but the world, including

this part of the

world sees him as a person jailed for 26 years and

also as a Gandhian

who worked for the independence and freedom of his

people.

He might have indulged in other activities, cant

we see that from

Sagi lagna itself?

Infact even i am Sagi lagna and Virgo Navamsa

lagna person, :-)) and

thus my preference for him being sagi lagna is

even more biased :-)

best wishes

partha

June 6, 2005

Om Gurave Namah

Dear Bipin,

Hare Krsna

In his book, he acknowledges his six

children: Madiba and Makaziwe

(dead), Makgatho (the son who died this year), Makaziwe, Zenani and Zindi. So who is Tembi?? Madiba?

I also find it absurd that 3 births can be recorded in the one year K if that is

so, the 7th lord’s dispositor has to

be in Gemini, indicating a relationship with another woman (so who was that

with??).

Love,

Swee

On Behalf Of bipinprag

Monday, June 06, 2005 10:53

AM

[Jaya Jagannatha] Re:

Nelson Mandela's Chart

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Friends

I have been doing some digging and research this

weekend on Nelson

Mandela's children from his two wives with a hope

of adding another

layer of information and a further hope that D-7

will shed some

clues to his birth time.

source: www.sahistory.com + interview with

curator of Govt archives.

>From First Wife Evelyn

1945 - Male - Tembi (deceased)- died in a car

accident in 1969

1946 - Female - Makaziwe (deceased)- death at

9mths old

1946 - Female - Name unknown (deceased)- death at

9mths old

1946 - Male - Makgatho (deceased)- died of AIDS

2005

1954 - Female - Makaziwe

>From second wife

1959 - Female - Zenani

1961 - Female - Zindziswa

I cant access jhl for some reasone - maybe its

windows - so im

having to reload it later and will look at d-7

Regards

Bipin

June 6, 2005

On 6/6/05, Swee Chan <swee wrote:

Om Gurave Namah

Dear Bipin,

Hare Krsna

In his book, he acknowledges his six children: Madiba and Makaziwe (dead), Makgatho (the son who died this year), Makaziwe, Zenani and Zindi. So who is Tembi?? Madiba?I also find it absurd that 3 births can be recorded in the one year

K if that is so, the 7th lord's dispositor has to be in Gemini, indicating a relationship with another woman (so who was that with??).

Love,

Swee

Dear Swee,

Mandela hails from a tribe where marriages are essentially a vehicle for procreation than recreation. There may well have been some low-key paramour for all you know, unless there were a pair of twins.

Nelson himself was a child of his father's third wife (of four). Africa and the Islamic world come closest to living out man's primal nature to be polygamous. We Hindus were too, until that ludicrous law in our country barred it 50 years ago, to merely fall in line with the " international community " ... more's the pity.

Respects,

Ramapriya

ayirpamar

June 6, 2005

Om Gurave Namah

Dear Bipin,

Hare Krsna

How come the

records are not kept at the local hospital? BTW, Who is

Noel Tyl?

Love,

Swee

On Behalf Of bipinprag

Monday, June 06, 2005 1:19

PM

Re:[Jaya Jagannatha]

Nelson Mandela's Chart

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Sanjay

The only time that I have found recorded is that

of 14:54, being a

rectification by Noel Tyl.

I have made an attempt at calling Mandela's office

a while back and

the librarian confirmed that many astrologers have

called about the

same thing and there is no official recorded time

and referred me to

his village of birth as there are some archives

kept at the museum

there.

Regards

Bipin

,

" Pt. Sanjay Rath " <guruji@s...>

wrote:

>

> om namo bhagavate

v & #257;sudev & #257;yaDear BipinIt is very

difficult for me to accept that the ONLY

politician in the world who

lived up to satyagraha or the path of truth other

than Gandhi should

have the atmakaraka Venus in a dusthana from lagna

(OK) and navamsa

lagna (impossible). This is not acceptable. The

time is definitely

wrong. Can we have the closest recorded

time?Consider this -1. He

was the son of a village (Ketu) chief/king (Venus)

and atmakaraka

(Venus/King) is conjoined Ketu (village) and

should have direct

contact with the navamsa lagna - so the navamsa

lagna has to be a

dual sign.2. Father died in age 10 in second

shoola dasa. Possible

lagna in the rasi chart based on this are (1)

Sagittarius, (2)

Gemini (3) Aries (4) Libra3. Initiation at 16 in

Aquarius Narayana

dasa - Aq is 3rd house showing some spiritual

initiation, Aq has GL

and HL and its lord Saturn is joined the nipuna

yoga and dharma-

karmadhipati rajayoga in the 8th house

(inheritance). [Confirms the

possibility of Sagittarius or Gemini

Lagna]Dwi-saptati sama dasa

(applicable if lagna lord is in 7th or 7th lord is

in lagna): Maha

Dasas: Sun: 1913-06-16 -

1922-06-16

> Moon: 1922-06-16 -

1931-06-17

> Mars: 1931-06-17 -

1940-06-16

> Merc: 1940-06-16 -

1949-06-16

> Jup: 1949-06-16 -

1958-06-17

> Ven: 1958-06-17 -

1967-06-17

> Sat: 1967-06-17 -

1976-06-16

> Rah: 1976-06-16 -

1985-06-17Please check the other events and

get the dasa/antardasa based on Sagittarius lagna,

Virgo navamsa

lagna - note the tapaswi yoga in trines to the

navams alagna in

Virgo. The great freedom struggle is among the

greaest tapasya seen

in the last century.Best wishesSanjay Rath

15B Gangaram Hospital

Road, New Delhi 110060 IndiaPhone +91-11-25717162,

http://srath.com -

---- Original Message -----Bipin Prag

[bipin.prag@l...]SJC-

Africa: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 06:31

PM:[Jaya

Jagannatha] Nelson Mandela's Chart

>

> Jaya Jagannatha

>

> Dear List Members

>

> From time to time, many great personalities

are born, Nelson

Mandela is one of them. As students of

astrologers, we rely on

these souls to assist us in our quest to perfect

our techniques and

improve our skills. Nelson Mandela was

recently quoted as 8th

greatest all time Politician by one of the USA

Media houses, with

the No 1 spot to be announced soon – which I

think will be Yasser

Arafat as he is nowhere on the rest of the top 10

list.

>

> The other reason for the importance of this

chart, other than

Mandela's greatness for what he has done for South

Africa's

liberation which since has been a catalyst of

change in the rest of

Africa, is that with this Forum being ,

its fitting that

we are able to showcase someone from our shores so

that Mandela's

chart can be used in Jyotish books as a case

study. I don't think a

detailed Jyotish analysis has ever been done on

Mandela, so this may

just be a first.

>

> Noel Tyl, a western astrologer, on behalf of

Astrodatabank, has

rectified his birth time to 14:54. With the

advanced rectification

techniques and skills we have in this forum, we

could further

attempt at rectifying his birth time or at least the

Nav. I have

posted the recommended time and attached a

biography to assist you

all. I am currently searching for dates of

his 3 marriages and

details of all his children – will post it

when I get it

>

> Thanks again for participating and look forward

to the analysis.

Please DO state the obvious as there are some

beginners on the forum

who can learn.

>

> Swee… What do you get for possible Rasi

for Lagna using Nasta

Jataka

>

> Regards

>

> Bipin

>

> Ps: Birth Data for those that don't

receive attachments

>

> Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela

> DOB: 18 July 1918

> Time: 14h54, EET, (GMT +2hrs) no daylight

saving

> Place: Qunu, Umtata, South Africa,

28E37, 31S45 (verified with

GPS)

> Astrodatabank rating = DD

>

*******************************************************************

>

> The e-mail and attachments are confidential

and intended only for

selected recipients. If you have received it in

error, you may not

in any way disclose or rely on the contents. You

may not keep, copy

or distribute the e-mail. Should you receive it,

immediately notify

the sender of the error and delete the e-mail.Also

note that this

form of communication is not secure, it can be

intercepted, and may

not necessarily be free of errors and viruses in

spite of reasonable

efforts to secure this medium.

>

*******************************************************************

June 6, 2005

On 6/6/05, Swee Chan <swee wrote:

Hare Krsna

BTW, Who is Noel Tyl?

an astrologer. http://www.noeltyl.com/

June 6, 2005

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Swee, Hare Krishna

Hospital Records - Local hospitals even today dont record Birth

Times as official records. Mandela was most likely born in a

village home, with the Eastern Cape being the poorest province in

South Africa, there was no chance of a hospital within 100's of km,

what to speak of in 1918. I tried to verify my own birth details -

no chance. Local astrologers have petitioned Government to have

bith times recorded as part of State Records some time back, but

South Africa being a prodominantly Christian country, officially

sanctioning this would be another political football as they would

be seen as to support astrology.

As regards Noel Tyl, he is a Western Astrologer, who has 'pioneered'

the use of Solar Arcs in prediction - in western astrology terms

that is. He is very well respected from what I here and visited

South Africa just 2 months ago.

While im in this research mode, is there any other data that you

require to assist in Mandela's Chart Analysis.

Regards

Bipin

Im including a brief explanation, one of my western astro friends

just emailed me to help answer your Q on Noel Tyl

What is Solar Arc?

Solar arc direction is one of the oldest predictive techniques [sic -

Jyotish is of course] in astrology. Solar arc is defined as the

difference between the position of the progressed Sun and natal Sun

on any particular day. This arc is then added to every planet and

point in the chart. The arc is approximately equivalent to the

individual's age. When a Solar arc directed planet makes an aspect,

especially a hard aspect, to a natal planet, some event or

transition is likely to occur. This is more so the case when there

is a transit activating the point as well. While solar arc is the

most common direction used, any planet or point in the chart may be

the basis for a direction. You can have a Venus-arc directed chart,

vertex-arc directed, ascendant arc directed, etc. The Sun is most

widely used because it connects the individual to the other planets.

, " Swee Chan " <swee@c...> wrote:

> Om Gurave Namah

>

> Dear Bipin,

>

> Hare Krsna

>

> How come the records are not kept at the local hospital? BTW, Who

is Noel

> Tyl?

>

> Love,

> Swee

>

> _____

>

> [sJC-

Africa ] On

> Behalf Of bipinprag

> Monday, June 06, 2005 1:19 PM

>

> Re:[Jaya Jagannatha] Nelson Mandela's Chart

>

> Jaya Jagannatha

>

> Dear Sanjay

>

> The only time that I have found recorded is that of 14:54, being a

> rectification by Noel Tyl.

>

> I have made an attempt at calling Mandela's office a while back

and

> the librarian confirmed that many astrologers have called about

the

> same thing and there is no official recorded time and referred me

to

> his village of birth as there are some archives kept at the museum

> there.

>

> Regards

>

> Bipin

>

> , " Pt. Sanjay Rath " <guruji@s...>

> wrote:

> >

> > om namo bhagavate v & #257;sudev & #257;yaDear BipinIt is very

> difficult for me to accept that the ONLY politician in the world

who

> lived up to satyagraha or the path of truth other than Gandhi

should

> have the atmakaraka Venus in a dusthana from lagna (OK) and

navamsa

> lagna (impossible). This is not acceptable. The time is definitely

> wrong. Can we have the closest recorded time?Consider this -1. He

> was the son of a village (Ketu) chief/king (Venus) and atmakaraka

> (Venus/King) is conjoined Ketu (village) and should have direct

> contact with the navamsa lagna - so the navamsa lagna has to be a

> dual sign.2. Father died in age 10 in second shoola dasa. Possible

> lagna in the rasi chart based on this are (1) Sagittarius, (2)

> Gemini (3) Aries (4) Libra3. Initiation at 16 in Aquarius Narayana

> dasa - Aq is 3rd house showing some spiritual initiation, Aq has

GL

> and HL and its lord Saturn is joined the nipuna yoga and dharma-

> karmadhipati rajayoga in the 8th house (inheritance). [Confirms

the

> possibility of Sagittarius or Gemini Lagna]Dwi-saptati sama dasa

> (applicable if lagna lord is in 7th or 7th lord is in lagna): Maha

> Dasas: Sun: 1913-06-16 - 1922-06-16

> > Moon: 1922-06-16 - 1931-06-17

> > Mars: 1931-06-17 - 1940-06-16

> > Merc: 1940-06-16 - 1949-06-16

> > Jup: 1949-06-16 - 1958-06-17

> > Ven: 1958-06-17 - 1967-06-17

> > Sat: 1967-06-17 - 1976-06-16

> > Rah: 1976-06-16 - 1985-06-17Please check the other events

and

> get the dasa/antardasa based on Sagittarius lagna, Virgo navamsa

> lagna - note the tapaswi yoga in trines to the navams alagna in

> Virgo. The great freedom struggle is among the greaest tapasya

seen

> in the last century.Best wishesSanjay Rath 15B Gangaram Hospital

> Road, New Delhi 110060 IndiaPhone +91-11-25717162,

http://srath.com -

> ---- Original Message -----Bipin Prag [bipin.prag@l...]To:

SJC-

> Africa: Wednesday, May 25, 2005 06:31 PM:[Jaya

> Jagannatha] Nelson Mandela's Chart

> >

> > Jaya Jagannatha

> >

> > Dear List Members

> >

> > From time to time, many great personalities are born, Nelson

> Mandela is one of them. As students of astrologers, we rely on

> these souls to assist us in our quest to perfect our techniques

and

> improve our skills. Nelson Mandela was recently quoted as 8th

> greatest all time Politician by one of the USA Media houses, with

> the No 1 spot to be announced soon - which I think will be Yasser

> Arafat as he is nowhere on the rest of the top 10 list.

> >

> > The other reason for the importance of this chart, other than

> Mandela's greatness for what he has done for South Africa's

> liberation which since has been a catalyst of change in the rest

of

> Africa, is that with this Forum being , its fitting that

> we are able to showcase someone from our shores so that Mandela's

> chart can be used in Jyotish books as a case study. I don't think

a

> detailed Jyotish analysis has ever been done on Mandela, so this

may

> just be a first.

> >

> > Noel Tyl, a western astrologer, on behalf of Astrodatabank, has

> rectified his birth time to 14:54. With the advanced

rectification

> techniques and skills we have in this forum, we could further

> attempt at rectifying his birth time or at least the Nav. I have

> posted the recommended time and attached a biography to assist you

> all. I am currently searching for dates of his 3 marriages and

> details of all his children - will post it when I get it

> >

> > Thanks again for participating and look forward to the

analysis.

> Please DO state the obvious as there are some beginners on the

forum

> who can learn.

> >

> > Swee. What do you get for possible Rasi for Lagna using Nasta

> Jataka

> >

> > Regards

> >

> > Bipin

> >

> > Ps: Birth Data for those that don't receive attachments

> >

> > Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela

> > DOB: 18 July 1918

> > Time: 14h54, EET, (GMT +2hrs) no daylight saving

> > Place: Qunu, Umtata, South Africa, 28E37, 31S45 (verified with

> GPS)

> > Astrodatabank rating = DD

> >

*******************************************************************

> >

> > The e-mail and attachments are confidential and intended only

for

> selected recipients. If you have received it in error, you may not

> in any way disclose or rely on the contents. You may not keep,

copy

> or distribute the e-mail. Should you receive it, immediately

notify

> the sender of the error and delete the e-mail.Also note that this

> form of communication is not secure, it can be intercepted, and

may

> not necessarily be free of errors and viruses in spite of

reasonable

> efforts to secure this medium.

> >

*******************************************************************

>

> _____

>

June 7, 2005

Om Gurave Namah

Dear Sanjay

ji,

Namaste

I had quickly

read the book again and can reaffirm that his father was not a Chief, but a

headman of a tiny village. In the African tradition, a headman is normally one

who oversees a few families in a village within another village. (Typical of Africa tribes). A chief is elected and presides over

several villages, and a paramount chief is elected by all the other chiefs

within a province. His father’s land and cattle were taken away from him when

Nelson was very young (he didn’t say when), and due to poverty, Nelson’s mother

moved back to her own village close to her own family where she could be

supported by other family members (subsistence farming and herding).

Nelson

Mandela’s father suggested that the acting paramount chief be Jongintaba

Dalindyebo who promised to look after Nelson. At the age of 9, when Nelson’s

father died (probable cause was TB- Shoola Dasa (Aq) with Saturn’s dispositor

as Moon). Nelson was sent to the acting paramount chief where he spent most of

his “grooming” days and was initiated the same time as Justice, Jongintaba’s

son at the age of 13. The initiation which is the circumcision ritual marks the

change of boyhood into manhood for the Thembu tribe. (Scorpio Drig dasa with Rahu

in it). There was no way Nelson was ever to be an heir to chiefdom. (Sorry for

the tongue twisting story).

Nelson had his own radio station (illegal) and was probably one of if not the

only educated freedom fighter in his day, so he became the most prominent/promising

member to head his “party”.

Love,

Swee

On Behalf Of Pt. Sanjay Rath

Sunday, June 05, 2005 5:25

AM

bipinprag

Cc:

Re:[Jaya Jagannatha]

Nelson Mandela's Chart

om namo bhagavate vâsudevâya

Dear Bipin

It is very difficult

for me to accept that the ONLY politician in the world who lived up to

satyagraha or the path of truth other than Gandhi should have the atmakaraka

Venus in a dusthana from lagna (OK) and navamsa lagna (impossible). This is not

acceptable. The time is definitely wrong. Can we have the closest recorded

time?

Consider this -

1. He was the son of a

village (Ketu) chief/king (Venus) and atmakaraka (Venus/King) is conjoined Ketu

(village) and should have direct contact with the navamsa lagna - so the

navamsa lagna has to be a dual sign.

2. Father died in age

10 in second shoola dasa. Possible lagna in the rasi chart based on this are

(1) Sagittarius, (2) Gemini (3) Aries (4) Libra

3. Initiation at 16 in

Aquarius Narayana dasa - Aq is 3rd house showing some spiritual initiation, Aq

has GL and HL and its lord Saturn is joined the nipuna yoga and

dharma-karmadhipati rajayoga in the 8th house (inheritance). [Confirms the

possibility of Sagittarius or Gemini Lagna]

Dwi-saptati sama dasa

(applicable if lagna lord is in 7th or 7th lord is in lagna):

Maha Dasas:

Sun:

1913-06-16 - 1922-06-16

Moon: 1922-06-16 - 1931-06-17

Mars: 1931-06-17 - 1940-06-16

Merc: 1940-06-16 - 1949-06-16

Jup: 1949-06-16 - 1958-06-17

Ven: 1958-06-17 - 1967-06-17

Sat: 1967-06-17 - 1976-06-16

Rah: 1976-06-16 - 1985-06-17

Please check the other

events and get the dasa/antardasa based on Sagittarius lagna, Virgo navamsa

lagna - note the tapaswi yoga in trines to the navams alagna in Virgo. The

great freedom struggle is among the greaest tapasya seen in the last century.

Best wishes

Sanjay Rath

15B Gangaram Hospital Road, New Delhi

110060 India

Phone +91-11-25717162, http://srath.com

-

Bipin

Prag [bipin.prag]

Wednesday, May 25,

2005 06:31 PM:

[Jaya Jagannatha]

Nelson Mandela's Chart

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear List Members

From time to time, many great personalities are born, Nelson

Mandela is one of them. As students of astrologers, we rely on these

souls to assist us in our quest to perfect our techniques and improve our

skills. Nelson Mandela was recently quoted as 8th greatest all

time Politician by one of the USA Media houses, with the No 1 spot to be

announced soon which I think will be

Yasser Arafat as he is nowhere on the rest of the top 10 list.

The other reason for the importance of this chart, other

than Mandelas greatness for what he has done for South Africas

liberation which since has been a catalyst of change in the rest of Africa, is

that with this Forum being , its fitting that we are able to showcase

someone from our shores so that Mandelas chart can be used in Jyotish

books as a case study. I dont think a detailed Jyotish analysis has

ever been done on Mandela, so this may just be a first.

Noel Tyl, a western astrologer, on behalf of Astrodatabank,

has rectified his birth time to 14:54. With the advanced rectification

techniques and skills we have in this forum, we could further attempt at

rectifying his birth time or at least the Nav. I have posted the

recommended time and attached a biography to assist you all. I am

currently searching for dates of his 3 marriages and details of all his

children will post it when I get it

Thanks again for participating and look forward to the

analysis. Please DO state the obvious as there are some beginners on the

forum who can learn.

Swee What do you get for possible Rasi for Lagna using Nasta

Jataka

Regards

Bipin

Ps: Birth Data for those that dont receive

attachments

Nelson Rolihlahla Mandela

DOB: 18 July 1918

Time: 14h54, EET, (GMT +2hrs) no daylight saving

Place: Qunu, Umtata,

South Africa,

28E37, 31S45 (verified with GPS)

Astrodatabank rating = DD

*******************************************************************

The e-mail and attachments are confidential and intended only for selected

recipients. If you have received it in error, you may not in any way disclose

or rely on the contents. You may not keep, copy or distribute the e-mail.

Should you receive it, immediately notify the sender of the error and delete

the e-mail.Also note that this form of communication is not secure, it can be

intercepted, and may not necessarily be free of errors and viruses in spite of

reasonable efforts to secure this medium.

*******************************************************************

June 7, 2005

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Swee Ramapriya

Very very insightful...I am sweating. Keep the discussion going. Swee this looks more and more like a Scorpio lagna story.

With best wishes and warm regards,

Sanjay Rath

* * *

Sri Jagannath Center®

15B Gangaram Hospital Road

New Delhi 110060, India

http://srath.com, +91-11-25717162

* * *

Ramapriya D [ayirpamar] Monday, June 06, 2005 5:40 PM Subject: Re: [Jaya Jagannatha] Re: Nelson Mandela's Chart

On 6/6/05, Swee Chan <swee wrote:

Om Gurave Namah

Dear Bipin,

Hare Krsna

In his book, he acknowledges his six children: Madiba and Makaziwe (dead), Makgatho (the son who died this year), Makaziwe, Zenani and Zindi. So who is Tembi?? Madiba?I also find it absurd that 3 births can be recorded in the one year K if that is so, the 7th lord's dispositor has to be in Gemini, indicating a relationship with another woman (so who was that with??).

Love,

Swee

Dear Swee,

Mandela hails from a tribe where marriages are essentially a vehicle for procreation than recreation. There may well have been some low-key paramour for all you know, unless there were a pair of twins.

Nelson himself was a child of his father's third wife (of four). Africa and the Islamic world come closest to living out man's primal nature to be polygamous. We Hindus were too, until that ludicrous law in our country barred it 50 years ago, to merely fall in line with the "international community"... more's the pity.

Respects,

Ramapriya

ayirpamar

June 7, 2005

Dear Sanjay,

I'd rather not

I remember a discussion on usenet, shortly after the Indian elections about a year ago, when I got into a pitch about how I couldn't get myself to accept Sonia Gandhi as PM, because she wasn't Indian. I'd reasonsed why I said what I did, which I'm sure is in the unspeaking minds of multitudes in India. Among other matters, when I stated that, since this woman barricaded herself in her country's Embassy during the '75 Emergency and wouldn't return home till Sanjay Gandhi persuaded her, I couldn't trust her to hold my country's fort in an hour of calling. The liberalist secular bigots made the ending of the discussion easier by calling me a " racist bastard " . I am convinced that you cannot today have a meaningful, objective discussion on human behavior and hard-wired tribal social instincts without being labeled a racist somewhere along the line by someone.

Since we're on it, make a note of my words, Sanjay - Britain, with its present mindless immigration policy, is headed for an absolute disaster, creating societies within a society, to its total detriment. I see some social uprising against immigration sometime in the future. Any astrological prognosis on this? Would be well worth it.

Respects,

Ramapriya

ayirpamar

On 6/7/05, Sanjay Rath <guruji wrote:

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Swee Ramapriya

Very very insightful...I am sweating. Keep the discussion going. Swee this looks more and more like a Scorpio lagna story.

With best wishes and warm regards,

Sanjay Rath

* * *

Sri Jagannath Center®

15B Gangaram Hospital Road

New Delhi 110060, India

http://srath.com, +91-11-25717162

* * *

June 7, 2005

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Ramapriya

Thats good research, just like you. Now, I am not inclined to go through all ..chasing the Bantu up the Congo river. So tell me simply in one line max- do you or don't you agree with Swee that he was not the son of some village chieftian.

With best wishes and warm regards,

Sanjay Rath

* * *

Sri Jagannath Center®

15B Gangaram Hospital Road

New Delhi 110060, India

http://srath.com, +91-11-25717162

* * *

Ramapriya D [ayirpamar] Monday, June 06, 2005 1:03 PM Subject: Re: [Jaya Jagannatha] Nelson Mandela's Chart

Dear Sir,

I'm not sure where to draw the line because this is an astro group, but I couldn't stop myself, since I see repeated comparisons of Mandela to someone like Gandhi. Gandhi, you must remember, fought for his land; South Africa is not really Mandela's.

One thing that a lot of people don't seem to understand is that southern Africa was colonized by congoids almost concurrently as it was colonized by Europeans, both displacing the native capoid hunter gatherers. This is why southern Africa has such a large proportion of descendants of European settlers compared to other parts of sub-saharan Africa. It is perfectly plausible to argue that at one time South Africa was majority white! Yes, negroids reached parts of South Africa before whites, but they were still quite recent arrivals when the European settlers came. Essentially the capoids where sandwiched between two sets of colonisers, negroids to the north and caucasoids to the south.

Bantu is an ethnic and linguistic group of Africa, numbering about 120 million. The Bantu inhabit most of the continent south of the Congo River except the extreme southwest. The classification is primarily linguistic, and there are almost a hundred Bantu languages, including Luganda, Zulu, and Swahili. Few cultural generalizations concerning the Bantu can be made. Before the European conquest of Africa the Bantu tribes were either pastoral and warlike or agricultural and usually pacific. There were some highly developed Bantu states, including Buganda in present-day Uganda. Possibly under the fear of European encroachment, several additional Bantu states developed in the 19th cent., notably among the Zulu and the Sotho. Other well-known Bantu tribes include the Ndebele (Matabele) and the Shona. In South Africa, the term Bantu is commonly used to refer to the native African population, which was subject to the policies of apartheid.

There are two basic theories of Bantu origins, that of Joseph Greenberg and Malcolm Guthrie, which is not a bit relevant here.

For the Bantu today, the accepted truth is a synthesis of these theories. The Bantu first originated around the Benue-Cross rivers area in southeastern Nigeria and spread over Africa to the Zambia area. Sometime in the second millennium BC, perhaps triggered by the drying of the Sahara and pressure from the migration of Saharans into the region, they were forced to expand into the rainforests of central Africa (phase I). About 1000 years later they began a more rapid second phase of expansion beyond the forests into southern and eastern Africa. Then sometime in the first millennium new agricultural techniques and plants were developed in Zambia, likely imported from South East Asia via Malay speaking Madagascar. With these techniques another Bantu expansion occurred centered on this new location (phase III). By about 1,000 AD it had reached modern day Zimbabwe and South Africa. In Zimbabwe the first major southern hemisphere empire was established, with its capital at Great Zimbabwe. It controlled trading routes from South Africa to north of the Zambezi, trading gold, copper, precious stones, animal hides, ivory and metal goods with the Arab traders of the Swahili coast. By the 14th or 15th centuries the Empire had surpassed its resources and had collapsed, with the city of Great Zimbabwe being abandoned. They couldn't spread southwards because their cattle and plants were not adapted to the Mediterranean climate. It was Huguenots who brought the Mediterranean techniques to South Africa. The Bantu were divided into different clans, not around national federations, but independent groups from some hundreds to thousands of individuals. The smallest unit of the Bantu organisational structure formed the household, or Kraal, consisting of a man, woman or women, and their children, as well as other relatives living in the same household. The man was the head of the household and often had many wives; he had complete authority over the family. The household and close relations generally played an important role in the life of the Bantu. Households which resided in the same valley or on the same hill were also an organisational unit, managed by a sub-chief.

The chief was hereditary. With most clans the eldest son inherited the office of his father. With some clans the office was left to the oldest brother of the deceased chief, and after his death again the next oldest brother. This repeated until the last brother had deceased.

The Bantu is divided into four main groups: Nguni, Sotho, Venda and Shangana Tsonga, with the Nguni represented the largest group. These are divided as follows:

Nguni

- Northern Nguni

Swazi and Zulu

- Southern Nguni

Mfengu, Mpondo, Mpondomise, Thembu, Xhosa, Shangana, Tsonga, Sotho, Basotho (also: Southern Sotho), Northern Sotho, Lobedu, Pedi, Tswana (also: Western Sotho), Venda and Lemba.

Now Nelson Mandela is the son of the chief of one of these myriad tribes, the Thembu. So how does this make South Africa his land?? If at all, it belongs to the capoid hunters. But where are they today?

Shades of the USA, isn't it?

Respects,

Ramapriya

On 6/6/05, V.Partha sarathy <partvinu wrote: Dear SweeYour points are valid, but the world, including this part of the world sees him as a person jailed for 26 years and also as a Gandhian who worked for the independence and freedom of his people.He might have indulged in other activities, cant we see that from Sagi lagna itself?Infact even i am Sagi lagna and Virgo Navamsa lagna person, :-)) and thus my preference for him being sagi lagna is even more biased :-)best wishespartha

June 8, 2005

Jaya

Jagannatha

Dear

Sanjayji,

Namaste

TB

– cause is Moon. I took Venus in Gemini to be the father’s lagna (prima facie Aquarius lagna;

night birth) and 2nd from it was own lagna

lord conjoined with Sun and 8th lord. The dispositor

was Moon. With this timing, it would be shoola dasa of Aquarius (fixed, aspecting

movable signs). With Scorpio lagna (prima facie) and

Cancer lagna, the aspects are to fixed signs. In this

case, not Moon, etc are involved. (So I’d have to disagree with you here J).

More: His mother embraced the Christian faith (Methodist).

Nelson’s father remained aloof from this,

instead reserved his own faith for the “great spirit” of the

Xhosas, Qamata, the God of his fathers. He was an

unofficial priest who presided over ritual slaughtering of goats and calves and

officiated at local traditional rites wrt planting,

harvesting, birth, marriage, funerals etc.

When

he was not much of a new born child, Nelson’s father was involved in a

dispute. As the headman, he was compelled to account for his stewardship to

both the Thembu King and the local magistrate. The

dispute was in connection to a complaint lodged by one of the villagers of an

ox that had strayed from its owner. The magistrate’s summons was ignored

and his father was promptly charged for subordination and deprived of his herd

and land. (Father was an illiterate.) Because of this, his mother moved to

another village (larger, with several hundred people) where she had the support

of friends and relations; style was less grand than the old “kraal”

(a small homestead) with a simple fenced-in enclosure for animals, field for

growing crops and one or more thatched huts. ---- Nelson mentioned chief –

(dash) headman who is subjected to answer to the magistrate. (Do not need to

ask Ramapriya as I have the book here with me to confirm).

He

had 3 younger sisters: Baliwe, Natancu

and Makhukswana

Aged

16 – circumcision (correction; not aged 13)

Nelson

was 21 when he was accepted at the University

College at Fort Hare.

His education was important as he was to be groomed to be a counseller.

At university, he became a member of the Students Christian Assoc and taught

Sunday bible classes.

Aged

22/23 during his summer break from his 2nd year university (after he

resigned as a member elect by the Students Rep. Council on a matter of

principle), his bride, the daughter of the local Thembu priest was chosen for him by the

“regent”. The dowry would be paid from the community where Justice

(regent’s son) was concerned, and Nelson’s dowry was to be paid by

the regent himself. Nelson’s bride however, was in love with Justice.

Both Justice and Nelson took it upon themselves to run away to Johannesburg after selling two of the

regent’s prized oxen.

Aged

23 taken on by a Jewish to practice his articles (not usual) while he continued correspondence

studies with the university in Johannesburg.

Aged

24 the regent died. Nelson passed his final exam for his BA at the end of 1942

August

1943: His 1st participation in a protest against the raising of bus

fares. Early 1943, did his LLB at Wits University

(only non white in the law faculty).

Easter

of 1944, Joined the Youth League of ANC (African National Congress) party. Already a smoker.

1945?

1st marriage to Evelyn Mase (who was

training to be a nurse at the time he met her). Her father was a mine worker

who died when she was an infant and her mother died when she was 12. She also

had a brother and a sister.

1946

birth of 1st son

Early

1947, finished his articles and left the firm. Applied for a loan to enable his full time LLB studies. Elected to the executive committee of the Transvaal ANC. Birth of 2nd

child, female who died at 9 months. (He was at the hospital for the

delivery).

1948

– worked for a new law firm

1950

– co-opted into the National Executive Committee

of ANC Youth League to campaign. 2nd son, 26th June 1950

1951

– embraced the Marxist ideals. Became the national president of the Youth League of ANC.

1952

– passed driving test, March. 30th July

1952 arrested and charged with violation of the suppression of the communist

act. 2nd Dec. 1952, found guilty and sentenced to 9 months

imprisonment with hard labour but sentence was

suspended for 2 years.

Will

look for more dates later.

Love,

Swee

On Behalf Of Sanjay Rath

Tuesday, June 07, 2005 5:35

AM

RE: [Jaya Jagannatha]

Nelson Mandela's Chart

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Swee

Thats an important

feedback about his father not being a Chief and just the head of a few

villagers. Other points under your mail

With best wishes and

warm regards,

Sanjay Rath

* * *

Sri Jagannath

Center®

15B Gangaram Hospital Road

New Delhi

110060, India

http://srath.com, +91-11-25717162

* * *

Swee Chan

[swee]

Tuesday, June 07, 2005 3:41

AM

RE: [Jaya Jagannatha]

Nelson Mandela's Chart

Om Gurave Namah

Dear Sanjay

ji,

Namaste

I had quickly

read the book again and can reaffirm that his father was not a Chief, but a

headman of a tiny village. In the African tradition, a headman is normally one

who oversees a few families in a village within another village. (Typical of Africa tribes). A chief is elected and presides over

several villages, and a paramount chief is elected by all the other chiefs

within a province. His father’s land and cattle were taken away from him

when Nelson was very young (he didn’t say when), and due to poverty,

[sanjay Rath:] Why

were the cattle and lands taken away from father, we need to check this fromthe

D12 as well as Rasi chart. Prima facie we have the Sun & Saturn conjunction

in the 8th house showing the event happening in childhood. The conjunction of

the badhakesh with this is also very bad for wealth and properties. This is a

Kemadruma yoga generated from lagna with malefic planets in the 8H. But this

can happen with both the lagna and is more apt for Scorpio lagna. Mother was more well off than fathers family and

this should be seen from A4 which is in Gemini with Jupiter!! No this is not

correct. Using Scorpio lagna, the A4 is in Sagittarius or Taurus - latter is

stronger and with Venus to confirm that Mother was from a more well off family. [sc

lagna favored]

Nelson’s

mother moved back to her own village close to her own family where she could be

supported by other family members (subsistence farming and herding).

Nelson

Mandela’s father suggested that the acting paramount chief be Jongintaba

Dalindyebo who promised to look after Nelson. At the age of 9, when

Nelson’s father died (probable cause was TB- Shoola Dasa (Aq) with

Saturn’s dispositor as Moon).

[sanjay Rath:] That argument is also MORE

applicable for Scorpio lagna as the shoola dasa will be Cancer with the deadly

combination.The cara Pitrkaraka is Mars an Rahu is in the 3H from it aspected

by the combination - so then we can say that Cancer Sula dasa aspecting this

Rahu can give death - will surely give death. Unless lagna is afflicted how can

a person be adopted by another?

Nelson

was sent to the acting paramount chief where he spent most of his

“grooming” days and was initiated the same time as Justice,

Jongintaba’s son at the age of 13. The initiation which is the

circumcision ritual marks the change of boyhood into manhood for the Thembu

tribe. (Scorpio Drig dasa with Rahu in it). There was no way Nelson was ever to

be an heir to chiefdom. (Sorry for the tongue twisting story).

[sanjay Rath:] Thanks

for this clarity. I am getting another drig dasa. Can you check

whats happening with the software.

Nelson had his own radio station (illegal) and was probably one of if not the

only educated freedom fighter in his day, so he became the most

prominent/promising member to head his “party”.

[sanjay Rath:] Mercury

must be in Rajyoga...not with Sg Lagna

Love,

Swee

June 8, 2005

Dear Sanjay,

Leaving on a skiing vacation now, so more on this when I return, if the thread is breathing still )

And while I respect your views on whether Tony Bliar (sic) has been good for the UK, you'll probably have noticed that the new Queen's speech of last month included a new anti-terror Bill - as if another was needed; this will be the third by my count since Velveteen (my alias for him ) assumed office. It is proposed that two new offences be created. The first is " engaging in acts preparatory to terrorism " . That's Bliar for you. Imagine a cop at your door saying, " What! You have an electric timer! " Even more galling is the proposal to make an offense of " glorifying and condoning terrorism. " If I say, " The war in Iraq was illegal and the attacks on the invaders are legitimate attacks by the Iraqi resistance " , which I will all the time, the cop might say, " Right, egg, you're nicked! " .

I'm so glad I'm not a UK resident right now

Respects,

Ramapriya

ayirpamar

On 6/7/05, Sanjay Rath <guruji wrote:

Jaya Jagannatha

Dear Ramapriya

Thats good research, just like you. Now, I am not inclined to go through all ..chasing the Bantu up the Congo river. So tell me simply in one line max- do you or don't you agree with Swee that he was not the son of some village chieftian.

With best wishes and warm regards,

Sanjay Rath

* * *

Sri Jagannath Center®

15B Gangaram Hospital Road

New Delhi 110060, India

http://srath.com, +91-11-25717162

* * *

RE: Nelson Mandela's Chart

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