My Interpretation of Tricky JP Verse (Vilagna..)

[Guest guest]



Om Gurubhyo Namah

Namaste friends,

 

I have been away from the sohamsa for a few days and read the archives just today. I want to offer my interpretation of this tricky verse from Jataka Parijatam.

 

I hope the SJC conference in California is going well. My heart is there and I wish I could attend, especially given that Zoran is also there from Serbia this year. Hopefully, I will be able to go there next year.

 

Those who want to benefit the Jyotish community by interpreting Jyotish classics should try to get formal training in Sanskrita and try to read classics in non-Jyotish Sanskrita literature first to get an understanding of the standard grammar practices and standard practices with respect to figures of speech and general usage and expression. Sanskrita is a very complex language to interpret and it is easy to make mistakes. The paradigms of expression are so different in Sanskrita and many modern languages. No dictionary can help there. If more and more Jyotish scholars are well-trained in Sanskrita, it will be very beneficial to the community. I know that both Visti and SanjayP are trying to learn Sanskrita and I wish them the very best.

 

In this particular verse, the word "aste" has no relevance whatsoever. First of all, vilagnAt + aste would've been "vilagnAdaste" after sandhi (i.e. voiceless "t" becomes voiced "d" when voiced vowel "a" comes after it and joins with it). Second of all, it is not "vilagnAtaste". It is "vilagnataste". It's a short "a". So the suggested break-up (vilagnat + aste) is totally wrong.

 

The break-up is "vilagnataste = vilagnataH + te". When dental "t" comes after visarga (H), visarga becomes "s".

 

The word "vilagnataH" means basically the same thing as "vilagnAt". It means "with respect to vilagna". The word "te" means "they". So there is no reference to "asta" (setting) here.

 

Now, regarding what vilagna means, it could mean several things. It could mean a special lagna. The prefix "vi" is one of the most common prefixes and has several meanings. Sometimes, it can imply something particular/specific/special (which will be either clarified specifically or can be inferred from the context). It could sometimes alter the meaning of the word to an opposite (e.g. kraya means buying, vikraya means selling). It could sometimes be used for just stressing something, i.e. it may not have a particular meaning and vi may not alter the meaning and may merely stress the existing meaning. Definitely "vilagna" can just mean the normal lagna, as Subramanya Sastri translated in his translation. But it can also mean a special lagna such as hora lagna or ghati lagna or vighati lagna. I don't agree with the view expressed by Visti below that vilagna has a specific connotation/philosphy and cannot refer to hora lagna, ghati lagna etc because they do not "follow this philosophy" and are "merely circular". The very fact that Parasara referred to hora lagna as hora vilagna is enough to show that hora lagna can be referred to as a vilagna (BTW, the fact that he referred to it in a different place without "vi" does not mean a thing). I must resepctfully, but firmly, reject such notions of a philosophy behind the use of "vi".

 

Also, lagna does not specifically mean ascendant or the rising sign. The point rising on the eastern horizon is only one meaning of lagna. Lagna simply means some temporarily fixed or identifiable point. It simply means a focus point. It is some point that can be taken as a reference point. Vilagna can mean "this particular/special reference point", i.e. some specific reference/focus point that can be inferred from the context. Think if there is a specific reference point that can be inferred from the context in this verse!!!

 

Note that the houses where various planets become ineffective are given for all planets, EXCEPT Sun. Why was Sun left out? Why???

 

For Moon, no house is mentioned from "vilagna". He was mentioned to be ineffective when WITH Sun. Why was being with Sun mentioned for Moon, while houses from vilagna are mentioned for other planets? Why???

 

I am a "Sanskrita Bhasha Kovida" and "Sanskrita Bhasha Visarada" and read several Sanskrita kaavyas (I am not saying it out of pride, but to establish my credentials before I offer an interpretation that may seem crazy to some). IMHO, based on the kaavya maryaadaa and standard usage/expression practices in Sanskrita poetic writing that I am familiar with, it is possible that vilagna here refers to Surya lagna. After mentioning that Moon becomes ineffective when with Sun, if the poet mentions the houses where other planets become ineffective with respect to "this particular reference point", it can certainly imply Sun. It does not have to be ascendant or hora lagna or ghati lagna or vighati lagna as people may tend to think.

 

In verse 70, a reference was made to planets in the six houses after Sun and in the six houses before Sun. So the previous context just before verse 72 also supports the idea that verse 72 may be talking about planetary placements w.r.t. Sun.

 

After a careful study of the verse and meditation over it, my conclusion is that the verse implies that the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th, 6th and 7th houses are the houses where Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus and Saturn become ineffective with respect to SUN taken as a reference point (i.e. Surya lagna). Of course, the ineffective houses from SUN are being mentioned for all planets and that is why Sun himself was left out of the list!

 

So Jupiter in the 5th from lagna does not become ineffective as the translation of Subramanya Sastri may make one think. It is Jupiter in the 5th house from Sun (where he is malefic as per ashtakavarga too).

 

Other scholars may disagree as mine is quite an unconventional interpretation of this verse from "Jaataka Paarijaatam". But I have no interest in arguing about the interpretation I have given. I shared my understanding only to help anybody who cares for my views. You can take it or leave it!

 

 

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

Narasimha

-------------------------------Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.orgSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org-------------------------------

> ||Hare Rama Krsna||> > Dear Sanjay P, Namaskar> > Btw i didn’t mention, as you know in the past i was assuming that vilagna referred to ‘vighatika lagna’.> > > > Then later when reading Parasara’s chapter on longevity, i saw the term; ‘hora-vi-lagna’ used. Hence i began believing that this was a term to differentiate all vishesha lagnas. But when you look closer at this is says; “lagnahoraavilagnaabhya.mâ€Â. This could also mean ‘lagnahora’ and ‘vilagna’. > > Later in the chapter on Rajya yoga, Parasara makes no use of the word ‘vi’ when referring to the bhava, hora and ghatika lagna.> > > > With time i realized, when cross-checking dictums across classics, that i would run into the word; vilagna vs lagna for the same dictum. Here Guruji came to the rescue;> > He once showed me a small paragraph he wrote about vi-lagna in particular. Here he mentioned that the word; ‘vi’ refers to an object moving towards a target, like an arrow, or like the Sun moving towards Sunset. So any lagna which does not follow this philosophy and is merely circular and just repeats itself, is not considered as vi-lagna.> > Based on this i consider the word ‘vilagna’ as a reference to lagna, lagnapada and atmakaraka, or any lagna point which is used as reference depending on the subject. This however also excludes the vishesha lagnas.> > > > I’m sure Guruji would like to keep on to this for a future release, but i thought it was relevant.> > Best wishes,> > ***> > Visti Larsen> > For services and articles visit: > > <http://srigaruda.com> http://srigaruda.com or <http://astrovisti.com> http://astrovisti.com> > ***> > _____ > > sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of Visti Larsen> 20 August 2005 15:17> sohamsa > RE: question regarding dictum> > > > ||Hare Rama Krsna||> > Dear Sanjay P, Namaskar> > I’m far from being the best in this area, but isn’t something missing in the translation of the word; “vilagnat-asteâ€Â?> > Vilagnat means we should refer from the vilagna, whilst aste (danta ‘s’) , is asta or setting/seventh house. > > If this is some grammar or sandhi rule that i’m missing, then please excuse me.> > Best wishes,> > ***> > Visti Larsen> > For services and articles visit: > > <http://srigaruda.com> http://srigaruda.com or <http://astrovisti.com> http://astrovisti.com> > ***> > _____ > > sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of Sanjay Prabhakaran> 19 August 2005 20:50> sohamsa > Re: question regarding dictum> > > > || Om Gurave Namah ||> Namaste Jyotishas,> Vaidyanatha Dixitar in Jataka parijata Chapter 1 says this> > sabhAnurindhuH shashijashcaturthe guruH sute bhUmisutaH kutumbe |> bhR^iguH sapatne ravijaH kalatre vilagnataste viphalA bhavanti || 72||> > सभानà¥Âरिनà¥Âधà¥Âः शशिजशà¥Âचतà¥Âरà¥Âथे गà¥Âरà¥Âः सà¥Âते भूमिसà¥Âतः कà¥Âतà¥Âमà¥Âबे।> भृगà¥Âः सपतà¥Âने रविजः कलतà¥Âरे विलगà¥Âनतसà¥Âते विफला भवनà¥Âति॥ ७२॥> > sabhÄÂnurindhuḥ Å›aÅ›ijaÅ›caturthe guruḥ sute bhÅ«misutaḥ kutumbe |> bhá¹›guḥ sapatne ravijaḥ kalatre vilagnataste viphalÄ bhavanti || 72||> > Mercury in 4th, Jupiter in 5th, Mars in 2nd, Venus in 7th, Saturn in 7th > Becomes Viphala.> Here it's interesting to note that Only Benefics in their Kaaraka Bhava becomes Viphala (Fruitless)> > Another Point to note is word 'Vilagna' is used, Narasimhaji once in a conversation said that ViLagna can mean all special lagnas, As the prefic Vi is to indicate speciality.So, this will give another important clue about using special lagna.> > Warm Regards> Sanjay P

[Guest guest]

Om namaste Ganapataye

 

Thank you Narasimhaji for this very nice interpretation of this verse.

According to my knowledge of grammar rules and meanings of words in Sankrita (which is little) it sounds very reasonable. As I have heard you are learned in Sanskrita so it is very good to learn such things from you until we learn enough to be able to understand by ourselves.

Best wishes,

Voja

 

 

sohamsa , "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr@c...>wrote:Om Gurubhyo NamahNamaste friends,I have been away from the sohamsa for a few days and readthe archives just today. I want to offer my interpretation of thistricky verse from Jataka Parijatam.I hope the SJC conference in California is going well. My heart isthere and I wish I could attend, especially given that Zoran is alsothere from Serbia this year. Hopefully, I will be able to go therenext year.Those who want to benefit the Jyotish community by interpretingJyotish classics should try to get formal training in Sanskrita andtry to read classics in non-Jyotish Sanskrita literature first toget an understanding of the standard grammar practices and standardpractices with respect to figures of speech and general usage andexpression. Sanskrita is a very complex language to interpret and itis easy to make mistakes. The paradigms of expression are sodifferent in Sanskrita and many modern languages. No dictionary canhelp there. If more and more Jyotish scholars are well-trained inSanskrita, it will be very beneficial to the community. I know thatboth Visti and SanjayP are trying to learn Sanskrita and I wish themthe very best.In this particular verse, the word "aste" has no relevancewhatsoever. First of all, vilagnAt + aste would'vebeen "vilagnAdaste" after sandhi (i.e. voiceless "t" becomesvoiced "d" when voiced vowel "a" comes after it and joins with it).Second of all, it is not "vilagnAtaste". It is "vilagnataste". It'sa short "a". So the suggested break-up (vilagnat + aste) is totallywrong.The break-up is "vilagnataste = vilagnataH + te". When dental "t"comes after visarga (H), visarga becomes "s".The word "vilagnataH" means basically the same thing as "vilagnAt".It means "with respect to vilagna". The word "te" means "they". Sothere is no reference to "asta" (setting) here.Now, regarding what vilagna means, it could mean several things. Itcould mean a special lagna. The prefix "vi" is one of the mostcommon prefixes and has several meanings. Sometimes, it can implysomething particular/specific/special (which will be eitherclarified specifically or can be inferred from the context). Itcould sometimes alter the meaning of the word to an opposite (e.g.kraya means buying, vikraya means selling). It could sometimes beused for just stressing something, i.e. it may not have a particularmeaning and vi may not alter the meaning and may merely stress theexisting meaning. Definitely "vilagna" can just mean the normallagna, as Subramanya Sastri translated in his translation. But itcan also mean a special lagna such as hora lagna or ghati lagna orvighati lagna. I don't agree with the view expressed by Visti belowthat vilagna has a specific connotation/philosphy and cannot referto hora lagna, ghati lagna etc because they do not "follow thisphilosophy" and are "merely circular". The very fact that Parasarareferred to hora lagna as hora vilagna is enough to show that horalagna can be referred to as a vilagna (BTW, the fact that hereferred to it in a different place without "vi" does not mean athing). I must resepctfully, but firmly, reject such notions of aphilosophy behind the use of "vi".Also, lagna does not specifically mean ascendant or the rising sign.The point rising on the eastern horizon is only one meaning oflagna. Lagna simply means some temporarily fixed or identifiablepoint. It simply means a focus point. It is some point that can betaken as a reference point. Vilagna can mean "thisparticular/special reference point", i.e. some specificreference/focus point that can be inferred from the context. Thinkif there is a specific reference point that can be inferred from thecontext in this verse!!!Note that the houses where various planets become ineffective aregiven for all planets, EXCEPT Sun. Why was Sun left out? Why???For Moon, no house is mentioned from "vilagna". He was mentioned tobe ineffective when WITH Sun. Why was being with Sun mentioned forMoon, while houses from vilagna are mentioned for other planets?Why???I am a "Sanskrita Bhasha Kovida" and "Sanskrita Bhasha Visarada" andread several Sanskrita kaavyas (I am not saying it out of pride,but to establish my credentials before I offer an interpretationthat may seem crazy to some). IMHO, based on the kaavya maryaadaaand standard usage/expression practices in Sanskrita poetic writingthat I am familiar with, it is possible that vilagna here refers toSurya lagna. After mentioning that Moon becomes ineffective whenwith Sun, if the poet mentions the houses where other planets becomeineffective with respect to "this particular reference point", itcan certainly imply Sun. It does not have to be ascendant or horalagna or ghati lagna or vighati lagna as people may tend to think.In verse 70, a reference was made to planets in the six houses afterSun and in the six houses before Sun. So the previous context justbefore verse 72 also supports the idea that verse 72 may be talkingabout planetary placements w.r.t. Sun.After a careful study of the verse and meditation over it, myconclusion is that the verse implies that the 1st, 2nd, 4th, 5th,6th and 7th houses are the houses where Moon, Mars, Mercury,Jupiter, Venus and Saturn become ineffective with respect to SUNtaken as a reference point (i.e. Surya lagna). Of course, theineffective houses from SUN are being mentioned for all planets andthat is why Sun himself was left out of the list!So Jupiter in the 5th from lagna does not become ineffective as thetranslation of Subramanya Sastri may make one think. It is Jupiterin the 5th house from Sun (where he is malefic as per ashtakavargatoo).Other scholars may disagree as mine is quite an unconventionalinterpretation of this verse from "Jaataka Paarijaatam". But I haveno interest in arguing about the interpretation I have given. Ishared my understanding only to help anybody who cares for my views.You can take it or leave it!May Jupiter's light shine on us,Narasimha-------------------------------Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.orgSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org-------------------------------> ||Hare Rama Krsna||>> Dear Sanjay P, Namaskar>> Btw i didn’t mention, as you know in the past i wasassuming that vilagna referred to ‘vighatika lagna’.>>>> Then later when reading Parasara’s chapter on longevity, isaw the term; ‘hora-vi-lagna’ used. Hence i beganbelieving that this was a term to differentiate all vishesha lagnas.But when you look closer at this is says; â€Å"lagnahoraavilagnaabhya.mâ€Â. This could also mean ‘lagnahora’ and ‘vilagna’.>> Later in the chapter on Rajya yoga, Parasara makes no use of theword ‘vi’ when referring to the bhava, hora and ghatikalagna.>>>> With time i realized, when cross-checking dictums across classics,that i would run into the word; vilagna vs lagna for the samedictum. Here Guruji came to the rescue;>> He once showed me a small paragraph he wrote about vi-lagna inparticular. Here he mentioned that the word; ‘vi’refers to an object moving towards a target, like an arrow, or likethe Sun moving towards Sunset. So any lagna which does not followthis philosophy and is merely circular and just repeats itself, isnot considered as vi-lagna.>> Based on this i consider the word ‘vilagna’ as areference to lagna, lagnapada and atmakaraka, or any lagna pointwhich is used as reference depending on the subject. This howeveralso excludes the vishesha lagnas.>>>> I’m sure Guruji would like to keep on to this for a futurerelease, but i thought it was relevant.>> Best wishes,>> ***>> Visti Larsen>> For services and articles visit:>> <http://srigaruda.com> http://srigaruda.com or<http://astrovisti.com> http://astrovisti.com>> ***>> _____>> sohamsa [sohamsa ] OnBehalf Of Visti Larsen> 20 August 2005 15:17> sohamsa > RE: question regarding dictum>>>> ||Hare Rama Krsna||>> Dear Sanjay P, Namaskar>> I’m far from being the best in this area, but isn’tsomething missing in the translation of the word; â€Å"vilagnat-asteâ€Â?>> Vilagnat means we should refer from the vilagna, whilst aste(danta ‘s’) , is asta or setting/seventh house.>> If this is some grammar or sandhi rule that i’m missing,then please excuse me.>> Best wishes,>> ***>> Visti Larsen>> For services and articles visit:>> <http://srigaruda.com> http://srigaruda.com or<http://astrovisti.com> http://astrovisti.com>> ***>> _____>> sohamsa [sohamsa ] OnBehalf Of Sanjay Prabhakaran> 19 August 2005 20:50> sohamsa > Re: question regarding dictum>>>> || Om Gurave Namah ||> Namaste Jyotishas,> Vaidyanatha Dixitar in Jataka parijata Chapter 1 says this>> sabhAnurindhuH shashijashcaturthe guruH sute bhUmisutaH kutumbe |> bhR^iguH sapatne ravijaH kalatre vilagnataste viphalA bhavanti ||72||>> à ¤¸à ¤­à ¤¾à ¤¨à ¥Âà ¤°à ¤¿à ¤¨à ¥Âà ¤§à ¥Âà ¤Æ'à ¤¶à ¤¶à ¤¿à ¤Å"à ¤¶à ¥Âà ¤šà ¤¤à ¥Âà ¤°à ¥Âà ¤¥à ¥‡ à ¤â€"à ¥Âà ¤°à ¥Âà ¤Æ'à ¤¸à ¥Âà ¤¤à ¥‡ à ¤­à ¥‚à ¤®à ¤¿à ¤¸à ¥Âà ¤¤à ¤Æ' à ¤•à ¥Âà ¤¤à ¥Âà ¤®à ¥Âà ¤¬à ¥‡à ¥¤> à ¤­à ¥Æ'à ¤â€"à ¥Âà ¤Æ'à ¤¸à ¤ªà ¤¤à ¥Âà ¤¨à ¥‡ à ¤°à ¤µà ¤¿à ¤Å"à ¤Æ'à ¤•à ¤²à ¤¤à ¥Âà ¤°à ¥‡à ¤µà ¤¿à ¤²à ¤â€"à ¥Âà ¤¨à ¤¤à ¤¸à ¥Âà ¤¤à ¥‡à ¤µà ¤¿à ¤«à ¤²à ¤¾ à ¤­à ¤µà ¤¨à ¥Âà ¤¤à ¤¿à ¥¥ à ¥­à ¥¨à ¥¥>> sabhÄÂnurindhuḥ Å›aÅ›ijaÅ›caturthe guruḥ sutebhÅ«misutaḥ kutumbe |> bhá¹›guḥ sapatne ravijaḥ kalatre vilagnatasteviphalÄ bhavanti || 72||>> Mercury in 4th, Jupiter in 5th, Mars in 2nd, Venus in 7th, Saturnin 7th> Becomes Viphala.> Here it's interesting to note that Only Benefics in their KaarakaBhava becomes Viphala (Fruitless)>> Another Point to note is word 'Vilagna' is used, Narasimhaji oncein a conversation said that ViLagna can mean all special lagnas, Asthe prefic Vi is to indicate speciality.So, this will give anotherimportant clue about using special lagna.>> Warm Regards> Sanjay P--- End forwarded message ---.

[Guest guest]

Dear Voja,

 

We need to groom a bunch of talented Jyotishis who are also excellent Sanskrita scholars and have spiritual purity. Then only can the gems from classics be refined.

 

Sanjay ji has dedicated his life to this and shown the way. I am quite comfortable with Sanskrita, but I have so little free time. In any case, a couple of people like Sanjay ji and I can only do so much. We need more people to take a plunge into Sanskrita and acquire more than a working knowledge. Visti and SanjayP are already learning. Freedom said he was learning Sanskrita too.

 

I am very glad that several key people at SJC are getting seriously interested in Sanskrita. I hope that many more can acquire serious scholarship in Sanskrita and put it to use to benefit the Jyotisha community!

 

May Jupiter's light shine on us,

 

Narasimha

-------------------------------Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.orgSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org-------------------------------

> Om namaste Ganapataye> > Thank you Narasimhaji for this very nice interpretation of this verse.> According to my knowledge of grammar rules and meanings of words in Sankrita> (which is little) it sounds very reasonable. As I have heard you are learned> in Sanskrita so it is very good to learn such things from you until we> learn enough to be able to understand by ourselves.> Best wishes,> Voja