Detailed Reply to Shyamasundara Prabhu (fwd)

December 13, 2000

[i am forwarding the reply from Shyamasundara Prabhu.]

Dear Narasimha Raoji,

Please accept my best wishes. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Bhakta-vigna-vinasha Nrsimhadeva Bhagavan ki jaya.

I hope that you were not worried that I had forgotten about you. I have

been

very busy with doing charts and other projects, but on to the matter at

hand.

You said regarding Vimshottari Mahadaha:

> Shyamasundara wrote: " Because he has stated it is the best. "

>

> I request him to give a quote corroborating this view. Where did Parasara

> say that Vimsottari dasa is " the best " ?

>

> For Vimsottari dasa, he only used the adjective " mukhyaa " , meaning " an

> important " . On the other hand, he said this about Kalachakra dasa:

>

> " kaalachakra dasaa chaanyaa maanyaa sarvadasaasu yaa " .

>

> It means " there is another dasa called Kalachakra dasa which the most

> respectable of ALL dasas " .

I have four editions of BPHS, three in English, one in Sanskrit-Hindi, in

this text I shall refer to the two most well known English translations

those of G.C. Sharma (Sagar edition) and the other by G. S. Kapoor (did the

second volume of the Ranjan edition) which both seem to be translations of

the same redaction of the BPHS. Chapter 48 is called Dashaadhaayaha. Verses

1-14 deal with the relative importance of the various Dasa systems. (For

your convenience I have attached copies of relevant sections of both books

in PDF format.)

You are absolutely right that he describes Vimshottari Dasa with the word

" mukhyaa " not once but twice. The first time in the 3rd verse, the second

time at the end of verse 14. However, your translation of this word as " an

important " is quite insipid and lacking the emphasis implied in the word.

The way you translate it sounds like it is important but not so important,

maybe a 7 or 7.5 out of 10, above average. However, according to the

Sanskrit dictionary a different picture emerges when we see the meaning

given to this word. In M.M. Williams Sanskrit Dictionary, p 820, we get the

following definition (I shall leave out which texts he is citing as

examples

of where it is found for brevity, but have included the original citation

as

a PDF attachment):

" being or coming from the mouth or face; being at the head or at the

beginning, first, principle, chief, eminent; a leader, guide.

He then goes on to give several examples of words in which the main word is

mukhya with different affixes attached to it.

" mukhya-tas: principally, chiefly, particularly. "

" mukhya-tva: pre-eminence, superiority, highest rank, or position. "

" mukhya-nripa: a paramount sovereign, reigning monarch. "

" mukhya-mantrin: a prime minister "

" mukhya-sas: principally, chiefly, before all. "

etc, etc.

Now a few comments, because the face and mouth are superior to all other

parts of the body the Brahmanas are said to issue forth from the mouth

" mukhya " of Brahma, hence the Brahmanas are superior to all the other

varnas. And, it is because this concept is stated over and over in the

sastras (Sruti and Smriti) hence mukhya is used to designate the supreme or

best member of a class. Therefore " mukhyaa vimshottari " indicates that it

is

the principal, chief, pre-eminent, superior, highest rank or position, and

paramount among the Dasa systems.

Sharma translates the first instance of " mukhyaa vimshottari " in this

context :

" There are various types of Dasa in vogue but for a common man ,

Vimshottari

Dasa is the predominant one. Some have mentioned particularly Astottari and

Shodsottari Dasa. O Brahmin! Ancients have also referred to Dvadasottari,

Pancottari, Shatabdika Dasa and in the same category there are also

Chaturashiti-Sama, Dvisaptati-Sama, Shashtihayani, Shattrishanta-Sama Dasa.

All these Dasas are based on Nakshtras. "

Kapoor similarly states: " Amongst them Vimshottari is the most appropriate

for the general populace.... "

These two translations are in keeping with the spirit of the dictionary

indicating that Vimshottari Mahadasha is the supreme mahadasha. Not just

" important " as you have stated. There is a big difference between what you

said and the actual dictionary meaning of the word as understood by

competent translators and readers of dictionaries.

Let us move now to your second assertion. You have stated: " kaalachakra

dasaa chaanyaa maanyaa sarvadasaasu yaa " which according to you means

" there

is another dasa called Kalachakra dasa which the most respectable of ALL

dasas. " This is true but you neglected to tell us whose opinion this is. Is

it Parasara's opinion or some one else's? It turns out that it is not

Parasara's opinion at all but that of others. The antecedent half sloka

that

you did not give us tells us something very different. Here is how Sharma

translates it:

" The Rishis have also made mention of Kala and Chakra Dasa. But amongst the

remaining Dasas, Kalachakra Dasa has the greatest recognition. " BPHS 48.6

Kapoor writes:

" Some sages have made mention of Kala Dasa and Chakra Dasa; but they have

recognized the Kala Chakra Dasa as supreme. "

We first note that the opinion about Kalachakra Dasa which you ascribed to

Parasara is not his but actually that of other people. Sharma's translation

suggests that Parasara thought that after Vimshottari out of " the

remaining "

Dasha systems Kalachakra is the best. But not superior to Vimshottari which

is supreme.

Then from 48.6-11 Parasara lists a number of Dasa systems like Chara,

Sthira, Kendra, Brahmagraha, Manduka, Shool, Yogardha, Drig, Trikona, Rasi,

Panchswara, Yogini, Pinda, Naisargika, Astavarga, Sandhya, Pachaka and

Tara.

At this point Kapoor states in his translation: " But in our [Parasara's]

view all these Dasas [mentioned from verse 6-11 including Kalachakra] are

not appropriate (for the purpose for which they are meant.) "

Sharma's translation is slightly different. " Besides these Dasas

[Kalachakra

etc] some have said about Chara, Sthira, Kendra, Brahmagraha Dasas. O

Vipra!

apart from these, Manduka, Shool, Yogardha, Drig, Trikona, and Rasi are

also

there. Oh Brahmin! Panchswara, Yogini, Pinda, Naisargika, Astavarga,

Sandhya, Pachaka and Tara Dasa and the like are the different form of

Dasas.

However, out of these Dasa forms, all are not acceptable by common

consensus. "

Sharma's translation suggests that there is no common consensus on which of

these Dasa system is acceptable. Or, it could mean that by common consensus

all of them are unacceptable. This seems to be what Kapoor is saying, he

seems to suggest that they all are not useful or appropriate. Anyway,

exactly what is the correct translation here will need to be researched

more. In any case both translations suggest the inferiority of the Dasa

systems mentioned in BPHS 48.6-11

But there will be no doubt as to what is the view of Parasara Muni. In BPHS

48.12-14 he begins to explain how Dasas are to be calculated and the first

one he describes is Vimshottari Dasa. This in itself is suggestive of the

superior and preeminent position of Vimshottari Mahadasha. But he does not

leave us any room for speculation for in verse 14 he uses " mukhyaa " again

to

describe the position of Vimshottari Dasa. And, as we have already provided

the dictionary meaning of the word " mukhya " the reader should not be

surprised when the translators translate Parasara's words thus:

" O Brahmin! The full span of a life of man in Kaliyuga is said to 120 years

(Purna Ayu).Therefore, amongst the various Dasas, Vimshottari is the prime

Dasa system. " (Sharma)

" In Kaliyuga the natural life span of a human being is generally taken as

120 years. Therefore, Vimsottari Dasa is considered to be the most

appropriate and the best of all Dasas. " (Kapoor)

Summary: In BPHS 48.1-14 Parasara Rsi states that Vimshottari Mahadasa is

the top most system. There are other Udu Dasa systems as well. (Verses

1-5)

In verses 6-11 he says that aside from them some " other " sages think that

Kalachakra Mahadasa is superior. He then lists many Dasa systems but in

verse 11 states that in his view these previous Dasa systems mentioned are

not acceptable. Then in verses 12-14 he begins to explain how Vimshottari

Mahadasa is calculated and ends by saying that Vimshottari Dasa is the

top-most and best Dasa system. QED

You have stated:

> I request him to give a quote corroborating this view. Where did Parasara

> say that Vimsottari dasa is " the best " ?

I hope that what I have supplied above has satisfied your request.

I have used Vimshottari Mahadasha for over 20 years in conjunction with

gochara and been very satisfied with it. You may not be in such a position.

I should say that I am not an arm chair astrologer or a hobbyist I am a

professional astrologer. This is my sole source of income. I do not

advertise, rather I depend on word-of-mouth referrals from satisfied

clients. That means that I have to be right a lot more often than I am

wrong

otherwise I would starve. I do not claim perfection or omniscience but I

must be doing something right. I have a very long list of charts to do, I

am

still working on charts ordered last September and I am not cheap, my web

site will prove that to you. I must be one of the only astrologers outside

of India whom people in (not from but in) India consult regularly and pay

US$ for what I do. Just last week I had a DHL package with a Demand Draft

from Pune.

The point being that Parasara Muni was not exaggerating when he said that

Vimshottari Mahadasa was the best. I am not saying that the other Mahadasa

systems may not be useful, in particular Kalachakra Dasa, and, with all

sincerity, I applaud you and others who are investigating this secondary

and

tertiary systems. But as the Rishi said this is Kali-yuga and the maximum

longevity is 120 years and very few even get close to that so who really

has

time to master the other Dasha systems? " Ars longa vita brevis, " Art is

long, but life is short. Jyotish is an ocean of knowledge and it is

impossible to understand it all. When Sankaracarya went to debate with

Madana Mishra the disciple of Kumarilla Bhatta it was jointly decided that

they would debate on all topics except for Jyotish because it was such a

vast subject no one could know everything about it.

My only objection is that in your enthusiasm for Kalachakra Mahadasha and

even lesser Dasha systems you have needlessly minimized Vimshottari

Mahadasha. You may not know this but you have a reputation for playing down

and minimizing the system which Parasara said was the best. The very fact

that I had to prove this to you shows what your attitude has been. I have

been shown texts on several occasions where you slighted it as ineffective

and then immediately launched into this or that Dasa system (please don't

ask me for examples as I tossed them long ago). Rather than take such an

approach why not just say " well this is what we can see from Vimshottari

Mahadasha let's see if other Dasa systems can shed extra light on it and

give more details. " That would be healthier for the science of Jyotish.

I am just wondering what will happen to the future of Jyotish if we lose a

whole generation of astrologers who do not have the proper respect for

Vimshottari Mahadasa and thus do not spend enough time practicing it and

mastering it because they have spent their precious time on lesser systems?

Continue with your research on Kalachakra Mahadasha but also spend the time

and find out why Parasara called it " mukhyaa vimshottari. " I beg to

remain...

Yours in the service of my eternal master Srila Prabhupada

Shyamasundara Dasa

www.ShyamasundaraDasa.com

PS Please find attached PDFs of Sharma's and Kapoor's translation as well

as

the citation from MM Williams Sanskrit dictionary.

PPS could others please send this to the various appropriate .

December 20, 2000

I am forwarding the mail of Shyamasundara Prabhu.

----------------------------

Dear Narasimha Rao,

Please accept my best wishes. All glories to Srila Prabhupada.

Bhakta-vigna-vinasha Nrsimhadeva Bhagavan ki jaya.

As you can see I am only now getting a chance to comment on something you

wrote almost 2 weeks ago. On December 8th you wrote:

> (5) OTHER DASAS: Nevertheless, each dasa is important in its own right.

We

> have to understand the philosophy behind each dasa and understand what it

> shows. I will quote from an article of mine that will soon be published

by

> a magazine:

>

> " Maharshi Parasara described tens of dasa systems in his timeless classic

> " Brihat Parasara Hora Sastram " . Different dasa systems are good at

showing

> different matters. Even when different dasa systems throw light on the

> same matter, they do so in their own way. They throw light on different

> aspects of the same matter. Different dasa systems are like vantage

points

> providing different angles to look at the same kaleidoscope that life is.

>

> As far as general purpose phalita dasas are concerned, three dasas

> stand out: (1) Vimsottari dasa, (2) Narayana dasa (Padakrama dasa),

> and, (3) Kalachakra dasa. Vimsottari dasa is based on Moon's nakshatra

> and it shows everything that happens in one's life from the vantage point

> of one's mind. Narayana dasa is an exhaustive system of which Chara dasa

> is a part. It is based on the movement of lagna in one's life and

> shows the changing situations faced by the physical self. Kalachakra

> dasa is the subtlest of all to understand. It is based on the navamsa

> of Moon. While rasi chart shows what exists at the physical level,

> navamsa chart is subtle and shows the inner matters and the dharma

> followed by one. As it is based on the navamsa of the significator of

> mind, Kalachakra dasa shows the events in one's life from the point of

> view of the inner spirit of one's mind.

>

> These general purpose phalita dasas show events of all kinds, but each

> dasa system has a different focus as already mentioned.

This sounds very intriguing and could lead to some very interesting areas

of

research. May I ask some questions?

1) Is there any sastra pramana to corroborate this theory? Or, is this

theory extrapolated from general principles? (I have no problem with the

later as long as they don't conflict with accepted axioms.)

2) Satyacarya has stated that the Nakshatra hosting the Lagna should be

taken as Janma Nakshatra for Udu Dasa if the Lagna is stronger than Candra.

What happens to this theory if Satyacarya's principle where to be followed?

3) What exactly do you mean by the following statement?

>Vimsottari dasa is based on Moon's nakshatra