Guest guest Posted July 16, 2000 Report Share Posted July 16, 2000 Om Gurave Namah My dear Narasimha, Why does the length of the day have to be 6.02 to 18.02 in an equinox? We are talking of LMT of course. As regards Jaimini, the sloka is in the last chapter where the sex of the person is based on the vighatika lordship as reckoned from Sunrise or sunset. What you are suggesting is a new definition of Ghatika, Vighatika etc on the basis of the length of a solar return day which is slightly more than 24 hours. You are also suggesting that the Ghatika and Vighatika re not fixed quantity of time and that they can vary according to the length of the day or night as the case maybe. No, this is not acceptable. the Ghatika is fixed at 24 minutes and Vighatika at 24 seconds. If you are talking of Dr Raman and others, then this is very clear in their definition. In fact when a birth chart is given in Ghatika, then they use this to convert the birth time to hours etc. This shows that they used the hour (Hora) and ghatika as a mutually convertible time measure. what you are saying is that the Hour and Hora are also not one and the same and that the Hora is grossly different from the Hour both in quantity and starting points. I think you need to think on these issues a bit more deeply. What happened to the case/example I had given. what is the Hora of birth in that example? Best Wishes, Sanjay - Narasimha Rao <pvr <varahamihira > Sunday, July 16, 2000 7:30 PM [sri Guru] Hora and Ghatika > Pranaam Sanjay, > > > Om Namo Bhagavate Vasudevaya > > My dear Narasimha, > > > > Some additional points are given under:- > > > > > > If 6:00 am LMT is the exact sunrise time on the equinox at > > > *every* place in the world, then you have a basis for 6 am. > > > > Rath: Is this not the definition of EQUINOX..Equal day and night? > > No. > > The definition of equinox is " equal length of day and night. " > Day need not be from 6:00 to 18:00 at every place at equinox > every year. > > But the day can be from 6:02 to 18:02 in one year and from 5:57 > to 17:57 in another year. > > One could've defined time a little differently. For example, if > what is called 6:02 am standard time today was defined as 6:00 > am when time was being standardized, then that would change LMT > times also. That is why I was calling the choice of 6:00 am LMT > as arbitrary. The definition of this time itself is somewhat > arbitrary and using it in the definition of hora is suspect. > There must be some clear astronomical significance to the > measure chosen. > > Regarding Jaimini's reference to ghatika and vighatika, please > give me the exact pointers. > > Though old people measured time using pots etc, it was > considered as only an approximate method. For a more accurate > measure of time, people always used the lengths of shadows. > > I don't think what we do (including JHLite) with BL, HL and GL > is very accurate. With the definitions normally used, there is > a slight *discontinuity* in those lagnas at sunrise. In other > words, there is a moment of time when they jump suddenly. It > cannot be correct. The exact formula must be slightly adjusted > to avoid this discontinuity. > > Parasara clearly talked about ghatikas in the definitions of > BL, HL and GL. We can clearly define ghatika in such a way > that BL, HL and GL do not have a discontinuity. I do not think > such a definition is possible by taking ghatika as exactly 24 > minutes as you are saying. > > Your sishya, > Narasimha > > > > ------ > Get great brand name shoes with just the click of a mouse. Check out > the huge selection at Zappos.com, the Web's Most Popular Store! > http://click./1/6994/9/_/2192/_/963756031/ > ------ > > OM TAT SAT > Archive: varahamihira > Info: varahamihira/info.html > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2000 Report Share Posted July 16, 2000 OM namo narayanaya, Dear Gurus and fellow students Narasimha Rao wrote: <snipped> > The definition of equinox is " equal length of day and night. " > Day need not be from 6:00 to 18:00 at every place at equinox > every year. This discussion has been very interesting and enlightening. I have also been giving it some thought. Please correct my logic. A day and night of Brahma are of equal duration. Therefore a day and night for us must be of equal duration regardless of place and time of year. The earth revolves around the sun (soul) every 24 hours, giving us periods of light and dark. Therefore a day of light and dark is 24 hours, and a ghatika must be 24 minutes. Also, the length of a hora will always be 1 hour. The midpoint of day is apparent noon (where it can be seen), and when it cannot it is taken to be 12:00 noon. As Gauraga said, 6 hours are subtracted from this time to get the starting time of the first hora. Apparent noon, when the Sun transits the meridian is based on the motion of the sun and is not arbitrary. > Parasara clearly talked about ghatikas in the definitions of > BL, HL and GL. We can clearly define ghatika in such a way > that BL, HL and GL do not have a discontinuity. I do not think > such a definition is possible by taking ghatika as exactly 24 > minutes as you are saying. Could you please explain why BL/HL have a discontinuity if ghatikas are exactly 24 minutes long? your sishya, ajit -- Ajit Krishnan ajit@(julian|engga).uwo.ca http://publish.uwo.ca/~akrishna gpg key B44D03FD Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 16, 2000 Report Share Posted July 16, 2000 Pranaam Sanjay, > Om Gurave Namah > My dear Narasimha, > Why does the length of the day have to be 6.02 to > 18.02 in an equinox? We are talking of LMT of course. > As regards Jaimini, the sloka is in the I did not say it HAS TO BE. I said it IS. Sunrise time on the equinox day is not fixed every year at every place (even in LMT). What is fixed is the fact that night starts exactly 12 hours after sunrise. Sunrise can be at different times on the equinox day in different years. So what we call 6:00 am LMT today could've been called 6:02 am LMT if time was standardized a little differently. In other words, you are depending on a somewhat arbitrary standardization. > last chapter where the sex of the person is based on the vighatika lordship > as reckoned from Sunrise or sunset. I did not say that ghatikas cannot be reckoned from a reference other than sunrise. You can find ghatikas since sunrise or sunset or any time. My only point is that the exact length of ghatika varies from one day to another. In my definition, Ghatika is 1/60th of a day. > What you are suggesting is a new definition of Ghatika, Vighatika etc on > the basis of the length of a solar return day which is slightly more than 24 > hours. You are also suggesting that the Ghatika and Vighatika re not fixed > quantity of time and that they can vary according to the length of the day > or night as the case maybe. No, this is not acceptable. the Ghatika is fixed > at 24 minutes and Vighatika at 24 seconds. If you are talking of Dr Raman > and others, then this is very clear in their definition. I know that. I quoted Dr. Raman etc in the issue of hora and sunrise. When it comes the length of ghati, I know that everyone says it is 24 min. In fact, I also wrote the same thing in the book I wrote. But I CANNOT reconcile with discontinuties in BL, HL and GL. That cannot be correct. So I think our concept of ghatika has a slight inaccuracy. > I think you need to think on these issues a bit more deeply. What happened > to the case/example I had given. what is the Hora of birth in that example? I know that I have to think more deeply. You raised some valid issues. But please note that I have raised some valid issues too. I cannot accept an arbitrary definition using 6:00 am LMT. For me what is important is that we should discover the Truth. Your sishya, Narasimha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 17, 2000 Report Share Posted July 17, 2000 Namaste Ajit and Gauranga, I want the beginners of the list to ignore this exchange. My exchange is only of academic interest. These issues are really not important. There is a big difference in the definition of hora given by Sanjay and others, but the difference in the definitions ghatikas is pretty minor. > JAYA JAGANNATHA! > > Dear Ajit and Gurus, > > > > > Parasara clearly talked about ghatikas in the definitions of > > > BL, HL and GL. We can clearly define ghatika in such a way > > > that BL, HL and GL do not have a discontinuity. I do not think > > > such a definition is possible by taking ghatika as exactly 24 > > > minutes as you are saying. > > > > Could you please explain why BL/HL have a discontinuity if ghatikas are > > exactly 24 minutes long? Dear Ajit, BL, HL and GL progress at the rate of 1 rasi in 5, 2.5 and 1 ghatikas (respectively). If the longitude at today's sunrise is x, then BL, HL and GL will start at x at today's sunrise and progress as given earlier. If we take 1 ghatika as exactly 24 min, they will all return to x at the same time tomorrow. Sun's longitude at the time of tomorrow's sunrise may be (x+1 deg). And tomorrow's sunrise may be a little different. Based on the numbers, there can be a jump in the values at sunrise. In order for the curves representing BL, HL and GL as functions of time to be " continuous " , ghatika should vary from day to day (just as the length of a solar day or a lunar day - tithi - in hours and minutes changes from day to day). We need to define ghatika in such a way that BL, HL and GL all become (x+1 deg), or whatever, at tomorrow's sunrise. Of course, discontinuities in these functions may not bother others. I understand it. But *I* personally cannot accept it. Just like lagna, longitudes of special lagnas have to be continuous functions of time. > Am I correct in saying that there will be no discontinuity if we take ghatis of 24 minutes > AND fix the starting point of they day at 6am LMT? Dear Gauranga, even if you do the above, there will be a discontinuity because of Sun's motion in the 24 hour period!! In any case, the above is clearly wrong. Even Sanjay is suggesting using 6 am LMT as the start of the day for the purpose of horas only (a fixed measure of time). For BL, HL etc, Sanjay also uses the sunrise as the starting point everyday. Parasara clearly used the expression " suryodaya " meaning sunrise. All other authorities concur. There is no ambiguity there. One cannot suggest that " suryodaya " (sunrise) means 6 am LMT. BL, HL and GL all start at Sun's longitude at the time of sunrise (start of day) and progress at a given rate. May Jupiter's light shine on us, Narasimha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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