Guest guest Posted April 3, 2000 Report Share Posted April 3, 2000 At 2. 4. 2000 8:02:00, you wrote: >Jaya Jagannath, >Dear Zavisa, > > That is an excellent posting as it clearly spells out the views of the >tradition of Jagannath Puri. Kindly offer my humble " Shadanga Pranaam " to >Tripurari Maharaj. I have always held that the Siksha Guru is INFERIOR to >the Diksha Guru for the following reason. > > Sri Achyuta Dasa explains that the Sisya(Student), Guru(Teacher) and >Isa(God-Krishna) are represented by the three beejakshara " HRIM " , SHRIM " and > " KLEEM " respectively. Some people especially the so called " Ritvik >Continuation Propagators " believe that " SHRIM " is the general Beejakshara >for all guru's and their stand about Diksha Guru and Siksha Guru is very >confused and misleading. > > The REAL function of the Diksha Guru is to propagate Dharma itself or >the Veda whereas the function of a Siksha Guru is to teach a part of the >Veda like a Vedanga. Thus the Diksha Guru does the function of Isa or God >whereas the Siksha Guru is doing the function of a helper of Isa. There is a >difference between God and His helpers and this distinction is there between >Diksha Guru and Siksha Guru. It is possible that both these functions can be >taken up by one person and hence that person shall represent the SHRIM & >KLEEM Beeja, else the Siksha guru shall represent the SHRIM Beeja and the >Diksha Guru shall represent the KLEEM Beeja. > > (Beeja means seed and Beejakshara means seed syllable or phoneme). Take >my personal example: My Diksha and Siksha Guru is Late Pt. Kasinath Rath as >he has given me the Gayatri Mantra (Diksha) and also initiated me into >Jyotish. There are many other Siksha Guru like Ramachandan Harichandan or my >father who taught me the mathematical aspects. However, they cannot compare >with my Diksha Guru. Now, the lineage comes from Maharshi Atri and hence >Maharshi Atri should be considered the Param Guru of the family. The Jyotish >Lineage comes from Sri Achyuta who can also be considered a Param Guru. > > In this manner, it is incorrect on the part of the Ritviks to consider >Srila Prabhupada as merely a Siksha Guru when, actually he is the Param >Guru. To say that he did not order the Guru-Sisya parampara continuation in >the form of a legal order or something like that is twisting the truth. >Ritviks were appointed by him to work on his behalf during his lifetime and >to say that they can continue to give Diksha on his behalf 'WITHOUT TAKING >THE RESPONSIBILITY " of being a Diksha Guru is running away from >responsibility as the Diksha Guru has to take one-sixth of the sins of the >student. These fellows want that Srila Prabhupada continue to take the sins >of the student as they can shirk this responsibility while enjoying its >position on behalf of Srila. > Sri Sri Guru Gauranga Jayatah Yes, when I was in my Jup-Ketu(both placed in 5th in Aries) one person was constantly offering me to read some things from PADA(ritvikvadis). Ketu realy tested me in that direction. Or might be deb sat transit over my jup-ketu. That person's gonna take initiation from Narayan Maharaja when he sees him. I did some preaching to him. I haven't encountered anybody but him. In Zagreb so far Krishna protected us from that deviation. I thank him for that. I have one question in regards to what you've written. Can you explain how sins are distibuted on initiation? Couple of years ago when I was wondering about that I could not get that definitely answered. yours sisya, Zavisa > They try to hide this in a show of humility that they are actually >working for Srila where their actions have resulted in their comparing him >to a mere Siksha Guru. If what they say is right, then they should be >prepared to give me the same position that they give to Srila!!! See now >this sounds so absurd and it actually is. > >Best Wishes >Sanjay Rath > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2000 Report Share Posted April 3, 2000 At 2. 4. 2000 8:02:00, you wrote: >Jaya Jagannath, >Dear Zavisa, > > That is an excellent posting as it clearly spells out the views of the >tradition of Jagannath Puri. Kindly offer my humble " Shadanga Pranaam " to >Tripurari Maharaj. I have always held that the Siksha Guru is INFERIOR to >the Diksha Guru for the following reason. > > Sri Achyuta Dasa explains that the Sisya(Student), Guru(Teacher) and >Isa(God-Krishna) are represented by the three beejakshara " HRIM " , SHRIM " and > " KLEEM " respectively. Some people especially the so called " Ritvik >Continuation Propagators " believe that " SHRIM " is the general Beejakshara >for all guru's and their stand about Diksha Guru and Siksha Guru is very >confused and misleading. > > The REAL function of the Diksha Guru is to propagate Dharma itself or >the Veda whereas the function of a Siksha Guru is to teach a part of the >Veda like a Vedanga. Thus the Diksha Guru does the function of Isa or God >whereas the Siksha Guru is doing the function of a helper of Isa. There is a >difference between God and His helpers and this distinction is there between >Diksha Guru and Siksha Guru. It is possible that both these functions can be >taken up by one person and hence that person shall represent the SHRIM & >KLEEM Beeja, else the Siksha guru shall represent the SHRIM Beeja and the >Diksha Guru shall represent the KLEEM Beeja. > > (Beeja means seed and Beejakshara means seed syllable or phoneme). Take >my personal example: My Diksha and Siksha Guru is Late Pt. Kasinath Rath as >he has given me the Gayatri Mantra (Diksha) and also initiated me into >Jyotish. There are many other Siksha Guru like Ramachandan Harichandan or my >father who taught me the mathematical aspects. However, they cannot compare >with my Diksha Guru. Now, the lineage comes from Maharshi Atri and hence >Maharshi Atri should be considered the Param Guru of the family. The Jyotish >Lineage comes from Sri Achyuta who can also be considered a Param Guru. > > In this manner, it is incorrect on the part of the Ritviks to consider >Srila Prabhupada as merely a Siksha Guru when, actually he is the Param >Guru. To say that he did not order the Guru-Sisya parampara continuation in >the form of a legal order or something like that is twisting the truth. >Ritviks were appointed by him to work on his behalf during his lifetime and >to say that they can continue to give Diksha on his behalf 'WITHOUT TAKING >THE RESPONSIBILITY " of being a Diksha Guru is running away from >responsibility as the Diksha Guru has to take one-sixth of the sins of the >student. These fellows want that Srila Prabhupada continue to take the sins >of the student as they can shirk this responsibility while enjoying its >position on behalf of Srila. > > They try to hide this in a show of humility that they are actually >working for Srila where their actions have resulted in their comparing him >to a mere Siksha Guru. If what they say is right, then they should be >prepared to give me the same position that they give to Srila!!! See now >this sounds so absurd and it actually is. > >Best Wishes >Sanjay Rath Sri Sri Guru Gauranga Jayatah There is also one other deviation that might arise and that is not worshiping anybody except your guru even though that other person comes in the same tradition and has a same realisation. Not necessarily worshiping, but rejecting. That also is not bonafide. So in lines with that I send one other lecture I just read and therefore got the inspiration to send it. Since this thread is recent this is not out of context. Someone once told me, " Srila Prabhupada gave us everything - we don't need anyone else. " I replied, " Srila Prabhupada gave us everything - he also gave us everyone else. " An address given at the Krishna Balaram Mandir by Swami B.V.Tripurari on the Tirobhava Mahotsava of His Divine Grace A.C. Bhaktivedanta Swami Prabhupada. Today, let me speak to you from my heart about my realization of Srila Prabhupada, especially what I have learned over the last eight years serving him outside the formal boundaries of the International Society for Krishna Consciousness. I hope you will accept my appreciation of Srila Prabhupada, even though it may speak of a different vision of His Divine Grace from what you are familiar with. After all, each and every atom of this world may be examined from many, many angles of vision - what to speak of a person whose every atomic particle of existence is cent percent dedicated to the service of the Supreme Lord. As Krishna himself is like a bright jewel who shows himself to his devotee as he himself sees fit, so his pure devotee, Srila Prabhupada, is a multifaceted personality who shows himself to his followers in many wonderful and diverse ways at the same time. Let us not limit Prabhupada to our own vision of His Divine Grace. Rather, on this occasion of his disappearance, we might do well to question whether any of us have ever seen him " as he is. " Guru tattva is a vast subject, an elusive tattva. We are humbled in our attempt to say anything about Prabhupada at all, and to do so certainly requires his grace. Srila Rupa Goswami has said in Ujjvala-nilamani that love, like a snake, moves in a crooked way, 'aher iva gatih premnah svabhava-kutila bhavet.' 'Hetor ahetos ca', with cause or without cause, sometimes in love differences arise. This is the nature of loving affairs. Let us consider, on this occasion where there is considerable talk of unity, that the differences between Vaishnavas arise out of love and everything that is spoken is not the whole truth. Srila Prabhupada said many things about his godbrothers, and they have often been quoted out of context to establish a policy that falls short of unifying all Gaudiya Vaishnavas, which he so desired. In the last days of his manifest lila, I was present when Akincana Krishnadasa Babaji Maharaja and other godbrothers, assembled at Srila Prabhupada's bedside. At that time, Srila Prabhupada asked for forgiveness for any offenses he may have committed. Babaji Maharaja was quick to reply, " All you have said was spoken in the service of preaching and in that there is no offense. " Prabhupada replied, " Now the war is over. Please try to help them (my disciples). " For the last eight years, I have been trying to realize this vision, an expanded vision of Srila Prabhupada's family. He was a maha-bhagavata, he loved all, what to speak of his godbrothers, even while he criticized them. I would like to suggest that there is much to gain for all from unification. As far as it is possible, we should strive for it. It was something that Srila Prabhupada held dear. But in order to do so, we must learn to be flexible, while at the same time resolute within the philosophical parameters of our Gaudiya siddhanta. We must broaden our outlook from that of a 'bhara-vahi' Vaishnava, to that of a 'saragrahi' Vaishnava. We must become essential Vaishnavas, not merely formal Vaishnavas. We must move from the outer terrain of forms, titles, corporate and geographical identification, to the inner landscape that Vaishnavism is all about. Where are we in terms of the Brahmanda, the Viraja, Brahmaloka, Vaikuntha, Ayodhya, Dvaraka, and ultimately Goloka, that should be our only concern. In this inner world of realization we can find both gradation and the possiblity of unity. We must leave the kanistha adhikari conception of Vaishnavism and act as madhyama adhikaris. We must question and learn to look deeply within ourselves. We must examine the sriptures and the words of our spiritual master in terms of their essential meaning. We must become acquainted, not merely with the outside - the vapu, of those instructions, but with the vani - or spirit, of those words. In doing so, we challenge our faith and thus run the risk of losing our heart, our faith. But shallow faith is not what we are interested in, but only inasmuch as it serves to help us go deeper into the heart of Sri Chaitanya's teachings. Srila Prabhupada was a great Vaishnava. It is said that the symptom of the highest devotee is that whoever sees him immediately begins to chant the Holy Name of Krishna. Srila Prabhupada was so great that whoever saw him, or whoever sees his disciples or grand disciples, shouts Hare Krishna. We may not be that kind of Vaishnava, but at least we can learn to appreciate, to smile, when we see another Vaishnava, regardless of where he rests at night. Let us be careful that in shouting 'amar guru jagad guru!', 'my guru is the best guru!', that we do not fall short in this glorification by putting greater emphasis on 'amar' - 'my', than on 'jagad'. For, by doing so, we may only be glorifying ourselves. Let us remember that we are all moving in this world with our own realization of Srila Prabhupada. We have not captured him in our fist. And we cannot pound our limited realization of him into everyone else's head and expect to realize the desired unity. We must have a generous attitude with one another and with all those who claim faith in our Savior, Sri Chaitanya. Love moves in a crooked way. Its ways are wonderful, yet difficult to understand. We have gathered here to glorify Srila Prabhupada, yet he is not alone. There is a land of Prabhupadas. In the words of Srila Sridhara Maharaja, " A land of gurus. " There, we may find the likes of Uddhava, Brahma, or Mahadeva in a grain of sand. We are trying in our service to Srila Prabhupada to approach that plane, but we have no qualification. The confidence we have should be derived, not from our ability to practice, but from our realization of the generous nature of that great welfare state. Our Guru's generosity is like that of the mother who names her blind son " lotus eyed. " Realizing this generosity, we have some hope. Let us position ourselves to realize this truth, and thus realize Mahaprabhu's vision of humility and tolerance. When he said one should be more humble than a blade of grass, more tolerant than a tree, he was not merely making a poetic statement. When Mahaprabhu saw the grass, when he saw the trees, this is what came to his mind. We are seeing grass and trees every day as well, yet we do not read the environment the way Mahaprabhu did. We must strive for this vision - 'Chaitanya darshana'. We must learn to worship everything by drawing inspiration to serve God and Guru from even the inanimate world, what, then, to speak of our own godbrothers, godsisters, uncles, and cousins - our own family. Someone once told me, " Srila Prabhupada gave us everything - we don't need anyone else. " I replied, " Srila Prabhupada gave us everything - he gave us everyone else. " On this I stake my activities of the last eight years outside the formal institution of our Gurudeva. And those whom I have met, those who are also part of Srila Prabhupada's family, whatever I have gathered from them, I am using in His Divine Grace's service. This, to me, is unity in diversity, acintya-bhedabheda. This, to me, is a glimpse at the heart where unity may be found. And in pursuing this vision, I hope that, if not today, then in some distant future, you will accept me as your godbrother. By embracing this spirit, by showing our love for him through cooperation, my prayer is that together we will see Srila Prabhupada 'as he is' for the first time in our eternal life. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted April 3, 2000 Report Share Posted April 3, 2000 OM VISHNAVE NAMAH Dear Zavisa, Shadripu or six forms of sins make up the body of the " PaapaPurusha " (or the evil within all people). One of these is forgiven at the time of initiation and hence one-sixth of the Paapa or sin is destroyed. The person doing so takes this upon himself and due to his Tejas (Fire of Purity) is able to burn them. Can you tell me how to study this from the Horoscope? Best Wishes Sanjay Rath > I have one question in regards to what you've written. > Can you explain how sins are distibuted on initiation? Couple of years ago when I was wondering about that I could not get that definitely answered. > > yours sisya, > > Zavisa > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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