Guest guest Posted April 2, 2000 Report Share Posted April 2, 2000 Jaya Jagannath, Dear Zavisa, That is an excellent posting as it clearly spells out the views of the tradition of Jagannath Puri. Kindly offer my humble " Shadanga Pranaam " to Tripurari Maharaj. I have always held that the Siksha Guru is INFERIOR to the Diksha Guru for the following reason. Sri Achyuta Dasa explains that the Sisya(Student), Guru(Teacher) and Isa(God-Krishna) are represented by the three beejakshara " HRIM " , SHRIM " and " KLEEM " respectively. Some people especially the so called " Ritvik Continuation Propagators " believe that " SHRIM " is the general Beejakshara for all guru's and their stand about Diksha Guru and Siksha Guru is very confused and misleading. The REAL function of the Diksha Guru is to propagate Dharma itself or the Veda whereas the function of a Siksha Guru is to teach a part of the Veda like a Vedanga. Thus the Diksha Guru does the function of Isa or God whereas the Siksha Guru is doing the function of a helper of Isa. There is a difference between God and His helpers and this distinction is there between Diksha Guru and Siksha Guru. It is possible that both these functions can be taken up by one person and hence that person shall represent the SHRIM & KLEEM Beeja, else the Siksha guru shall represent the SHRIM Beeja and the Diksha Guru shall represent the KLEEM Beeja. (Beeja means seed and Beejakshara means seed syllable or phoneme). Take my personal example: My Diksha and Siksha Guru is Late Pt. Kasinath Rath as he has given me the Gayatri Mantra (Diksha) and also initiated me into Jyotish. There are many other Siksha Guru like Ramachandan Harichandan or my father who taught me the mathematical aspects. However, they cannot compare with my Diksha Guru. Now, the lineage comes from Maharshi Atri and hence Maharshi Atri should be considered the Param Guru of the family. The Jyotish Lineage comes from Sri Achyuta who can also be considered a Param Guru. In this manner, it is incorrect on the part of the Ritviks to consider Srila Prabhupada as merely a Siksha Guru when, actually he is the Param Guru. To say that he did not order the Guru-Sisya parampara continuation in the form of a legal order or something like that is twisting the truth. Ritviks were appointed by him to work on his behalf during his lifetime and to say that they can continue to give Diksha on his behalf 'WITHOUT TAKING THE RESPONSIBILITY " of being a Diksha Guru is running away from responsibility as the Diksha Guru has to take one-sixth of the sins of the student. These fellows want that Srila Prabhupada continue to take the sins of the student as they can shirk this responsibility while enjoying its position on behalf of Srila. They try to hide this in a show of humility that they are actually working for Srila where their actions have resulted in their comparing him to a mere Siksha Guru. If what they say is right, then they should be prepared to give me the same position that they give to Srila!!! See now this sounds so absurd and it actually is. Best Wishes Sanjay Rath - Zavisa Nikac <zavisa.nikac <varahamihira > Saturday, April 01, 2000 8:24 PM [Jagannath] Gaudiya M. stand on ritvik > Jay Radhe! > > This is a general Gaudiya Math stand on ritvik, so if anyone is interested in it he can read it, otherwise do not read this. > > Zavisa > > > Subject: > Ritvik & Siddhanta > Date: > Wed, 29 Jul 1998 14:55:41 -0700 > > vicaru > To: > sanga > > > > > Dandavat pranams, > > Sri Sri Guru Gauranga Jayatah! > > There has been a lot of news recently about how rapidly the Ritvik > conception is spreading within the greater Iskcon community. In the last > few years, the Ritvik idea has gone from being on the lunatic fringe to > being right in the middle of mainstream Iskcon ideology. I saw a news story > last week reporting that all of the Iskcon temples in India have officially > accepted the Ritvik idea. > > In order to clear the air and put this anomaly in it's proper perspective, > I present a wonderful room conversation with Tripurari Maharaja. I was > fortunate enough to be present. A sannyasi recently converted to the Ritvik > fold was meeting with Maharaja in his quarters in Eugene. > > Here is Part I of that conversation. - Vicaru das > > > > The Ritvik Conception and Disciplic Succession: > A Room Conversation with Tripurari Maharaja > > Ritvik Devotee: The understanding is that before Prabhupada left, he asked > eleven of his disciples to initiate as ritvik acaryas on his behalf with > the initiating disciples being Prabhupada's disciples hereafter, meaning from here on with no cessation of that. > > Swami BV Tripurari: So your idea is that this is what Prabhupada wanted > from the start? > > Ritvik Devotee: Right. That that's what he wanted from the start. And that > is what all the > written evidence and recorded evidence of what Prabhupada said right before > > he left, that was the instruction he gave... > > Swami Tripurari: But that contradicts our philosophy. > > RD: The long range instruction is that you become guru when I order. And > he never ordered, that people become guru and initiate disciples on their > own > behalf. He never ordered that. > > ST: But that conflicts with our tradition. > > RD: No, because there is so much evidence in all of our scriptures that > Krsna > and the spiritual master can appear later on even after they depart. > > ST: And how will you know if he has? > > RD: Only the person will know. And that requires the sincerity of each > disciple to not jump the gun. To wait for Prabhupada to appear and tell him, > > Now you initiate on your own behalf. Otherwise, his standing order is, you > initiate on my behalf. Which is not a terrible position, it is very glorious > to > initiate on Prabhupada's behalf. > > ST: This idea is certainly unprecedented. Philosophically it is not what > Prabhupada taught, that after the spiritual master leaves people continue to > > become his disciples. > > RD: But it is what he instructed. > > ST: There are different ways to interpret those instructions and > it has been bantered about for over 20 years. The direct way to interpret > those instructions is the way events played out after Prabhupada's > disappearance which, although immature, was in concert with the philosophy. > Because there were > problems with that, to conclude, well, this may be the philosophy but we > think he might have instructed otherwise. - to reconstrue what his > instructions were, to draw a different interpretation > out of it, and come up with a ritvik system - this contradicts the > philosophy > Prabhupada taught in his books about guru. > > RD: Philosophy comes from the mouth of the acarya. That was what he > enunciated for that period, right then and there. That is the philosophy. > > ST: Everything guru says has to be supported by sastra. > > RD: Right. And the sastra is the acaryas and what they have taught. And > most of the acaryas in our line have, in that disciplic succession, its all > siksa links. There are almost no diksa links. > > ST: There is diksa everywhere. That is the beginning of > Bhakti-rasamrta-sindhu, one has to accept diksa. > > RD: Of course, you have to accept diksa from someone. But they are all > accepting diksa from people that weren't present, like Visvanatha from > Narottama das Thakura. > > ST: He didn't accept diksa from Narottama das Thakura. His diksa guru is > Lokanatha Goswami. > > RD: But it is not considered as important. > > ST: It certainly is. That's why he praises him in his songs. What do you > mean > diksa is not as important as siksa? > > RD: It's not as important as siksa. Definitely not. Siksa is what > Prabhupada says, this is initiation. You see it in Prabhupada's writings > over > and over... > > ST: Have you read Caitanya-caritamrta... > > RD: ...initiation is when the disciple accepts my instruction. And then he > says, the formality of the fire ceremony is simply a formality... > > ST: The fire ceremony is another thing. > > RD: ...The real initiation is the hari-nama, when you accept the holy name. > > ST: Diksa guru and siksa guru, one is not less than the other. > > RD: That's right. > > ST: But you are saying that diksa is less important than siksa. But we are > saying that diksa guru and siksa guru are equal manifestations of the > absolute truth, according to Caitanya-caritamrta. > > RD: Yeah, OK, sure, guru is one. > > ST: Are you trying to construe that diksa is less important than siksa? And > therefore, if so, what is the conclusion? Then why bother with the ritvik > system? Just accept siksa. Diksa is a necessity whether it is more > important or less important, but it is a necessity, right? > > RD: Right. Therefore we should accept diksa from Prabhupada. > > ST: But how can you accept diksa from Prabhupada if Prabhupada is not > here? > > RD: By the use of a ritvik guru. > > ST: And where is that system found? > > RD: Prabhupada enunciated it. He said this is what I want to have going on. > > ST: But that is debatable. > > RD: No, it's not debatable. That is exactly what he said. > > ST: I've heard the tapes. > > RD: That's what he said. In fact, Tamala Krsna Goswami said that in 1980. > He said we have done the greatest disservice to this movement by > interpreting > that Prabhupada appointed us as full acaryas when in fact he appointed us as > > ritviks. He said that in 1980 in the Topanga Canyon talks. > > ST: If I talked to him today he would probably say something different. > > RD: In 1984 he published his book, Servant of the Servant, in which he said > Prabhupada appointed us as full guru acaryas and anyone who barks a > criticism at the successor acaryas it a thinly veiled criticism of > Prabhupada > himself. He wrote that in 1984 after in 1980 saying that Prabhupada never > appointed successor acaryas, he only appointed us as ritviks and we have > done the great disservice to the movement. > > ST: So you quote him in '80 and someone else can quote > him in '84. > > RD: Right. Which means that Prabhupada appointed...that's when you go back > to the original thing that Prabhupada wrote, which is that we were appointed > > as ritviks. What's his name, Ravindra Svarupa, in 1990 had a ritvik debate > in San Diego... > > ST: You are telling me yourself that Tamala Krsna Maharaja said one thing in > > 1980 and the opposite in 1984. > > RD: That's right. So therefore... > > ST: So I can choose which one I want? > > RD: Well, that's what you have to examine too and go back to the original > writing. And that's what Prabhupada said. There is no evidence that > Prabhupada ever asked anybody to initiate disciples on their own behalf. And > > so since this situation is at best questionable... > > ST: No, if that is so... > > RD: ...why not take the path of humility? Why not just simply say, all right > > since we don't know let's take the more humble option. You can't go wrong > with humility. > > ST: You say you're humble because you say you are not qualified. > If you say you are not qualified, then you cannot say someone else is not > qualified if they say they are. Otherwise, that is false humility. > > What you are saying is that Prabhupada didn't appoint anybody. But it > doesn't follow that, in his absence his followers will initiate on his > behalf, and new comers will become Prabhupada's > disciples. That contradicts the philosophy he taught. Therefore, all you > can really say is > that his teaching was that, after he departed, we should look for a > self-effulgent acarya who has the qualications to perform such service. > Right? > > All you can say is that he didn't appoint anybody. We know that he appointed > > people to initiate on his behalf. That was going on whether he made those > statements or not. People were already doing that in the society for years. > I > chanted on beads for new initiates in Prabhupada's presence. Names weren't > picked by Prabhupada in most cases. So that was already going on. > > RD: Right. > > ST: But our philosophy does not say it should go on afterwards. You are > construing that it should be extended into the future. If the tapes confirm > that Prabhupada didn't appoint anybody, then, to remain in concert with the > philosophy, it is > implicit that we look for somebody who is qualified. > > RD: It's not to say that no one ever will be qualified, that is true. > Someone > will emerge at some point, perhaps. > > ST: Well, we would hope so. If Prabhupada is such a great guru > you would think that someone will emerge. Otherwise, people are going to > wonder how great can he be. He himself used to say that you can judge a > guru > by his disciples. So, I have no need to concoct some idea that people can > initiate on Prabhupada's behalf as ritviks in his absence. The standard > has always > been only in the living presence. > > The will of the Vaisnava must be there in the background. Rather than > concoct > something, we should look for someone who is qualified. Then the question > comes, where will you look? Do you follow ? > > RD: Yes. > > ST: We have the right to look anywhere, don't we? Wherever Krsna > consciousness is manifest. There is no geographic or political restriction > where we can look. So, correct me if I'm wrong, it seems the whole ritvik > idea you are presenting becomes obsolete as soon as there is a qualified > person. Isn't that correct? > > RD: When a qualified person is there Prabhupada will instruct that person. > > ST: Why Prabhupada? What about Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura? There are > so many. > > RD: Right. That's possible. > > ST: Or Krsna? > > RD: Someone in the disciplic succession. Like Krsnadas Kaviraja was > instructed to write the Caitanya-caritamrta by Lord Nityananda. That can > happen where a person comes from somewhere, what we call the past, you > know, comes and actually tells us, Yeah, you are now qualified, do this. > That > definitely can happen. There is no denying that. That is in our scriptures. > > ST: Don't you think you are extending this ritvik idea beyond it's > philosophical limitations? What gives you the right to do that? > > RD: Because that is what Prabhupada said to do and he never said to do > otherwise. > > ST: Prabhupada said to look for a self-effulgent acarya. You have heard > that before, haven't you? > > RD: Of course, you always have to find a self-effulgent acarya. But right > before he left he said to initiate on my behalf as ritviks. > > ST: He said what? > > RD: Initiate on my behalf as ritviks. > > ST: Yes, in his presence. > > RD: No, he said, hereafter. Hereafter means from now on. > > ST: What those instructions directly say is that > his disciples will initiate their own disciples. I have seen it so many > times. You must have read it, " on my behalf " . And then Prabhupada says, > 'they will be the > disciples of my disciples'. > > RD: Yeah, I remember it, but that is out of context. If you read the whole > context, it is not documented. I have studied those tapes and I know those > tapes and the conversations and I agree with the other opinion, that he... > > ST: Yes, but then you are agreeing with an opinion that goes against Gaudiya > > siddhanta. > > RD: No, I am agreeing with the opinion of what Prabhupada said. > > ST: There are two opinions of what the tapes say. You are choosing one that > goes against siddhanta. Now you have to establish, well, how could > Prabhupada > contradict siddhanta? The other way is that new initiates will be the > disciples of my disciples. And that is the siddhanta. Obviously, one has > to be qualified. Not, he said, you do this, therefore you are automatically > qualified. It means you make > yourself qualified. Become Krsna conscious and then do it. That is a more > logical way to understand the tapes, rather than saying, well he has made > some new adjustment here that is different from what he taught in his books > and different from the Gaudiya tradition. That seems more reasonable to me. > But you are > entitled to interpret it the other way. But then you have to establish how > it is the siddhanta. All you can say now is, 'guru said it and therefore > it is siddhanta'. > > RD: No. the way to figure it out is that since you are giving me the right > to > decide my way and I give you the right to decide your way, which is the more > > effective way. And you know...you can't go wrong being too humble. > > ST: It is not humility to change the siddhanta. > > RD: You haven't established that it is changing the siddhanta. That is what > I > just said. You say that I am interpreting the tape one way and you are > interpreting the tape another way, then what I am saying is that when you > are > choosing between the two interpretations the way of humility has to be taken > > in because that's the primary qualification of a disciple, is that he is > humble > and he always considers himself a menial servant of the spiritual master. > > ST: There is no lack of humility to interpret Prabhupada's instructions > according to siddhanta. It doesn't mean that all of a sudden you are a very > highly qualified devotee to interpret it your way. Someone might say, where > is the humility in twisting the siddhanta to say, 'We can make disciples > for Prabhupada after his disappearance from the world because he said so. > That is the siddhanta because he said so. Whatever the guru says is > siddhanta'. > > RD: That is right. > > ST: Not that i s not right. That's wrong. > > RD: Whatever the guru says is siddhanta. > > ST: That's wrong, absolutely wrong. Guru says many things > that aren't siddhanta, because preaching and siddhanta are not always the > same. > > Sankaracarya, what did he do? He didn't preach siddhanta. He is Lord > Siva. You don't think he knows siddhanta? He didn't preach it. What do > you find in the Gopala-campu of Jiva Goswami when he is emphasizing svakiya > rasa? Is he preaching siddhanta there? The siddhanta is parakiya bhava > but he is preaching the virtues of svakiya rasa. So our Gaudiya acaryas > do this, this is the way of preaching. > > Now, there is a way to interpret the tapes that is in concert with the > siddhanta. It is this, 'When I leave, my disciples should qualify > themselves to initiate and carry on the guru parampara.' > Why is it unhumble to translate it like that? > > RD: Well, it's not. > > ST: Your ritvik idea is Paramhamsa Yogananda philosophy. It is > Christianity philosophy. This is what ruined the Sikh movement also. There > are no qualified gurus, we > will all become gurus. So you want to say that and the only support you can > give is that guru said it therefore it is siddhanta. So that is my one > point. I > can't agree with that. > > The second point is, even if that is true, even if somehow it is true that > Prabhupada said it, and you could support it with all kinds of scripture > and you could get other sadhus to confirm it - the whole thing is > irrelevant as soon as someone is qualified. But you are importing this > system based on 'Prabhupada said it, so it must be', even though it > contradicts the siddhanta. But he said it, therefore it must be the > siddhanta. I can't demonstrate how it is, but he said it, it must be. I > can't > confirm it with sastra or sadhu, but he said it, therefore it must be. > Yet the whole thing becomes irrelevant as soon as there is a qualified > person. > > And where will a qualified person come from? It is not limited to any > geographical > or corporate structure. What you are saying, then, with your ritvik idea, is > > that all of Siddhanta Sarasvati Thakura's disciples, for example, are not > qualified to initiate disciples. Yet I can show you in Prabhupada's > books where he says that they are. > > And I can show you in writing how Prabhupada dealt with one of his disciples > > who had faith in Madhav Maharaja. Actually, before he met Prabhupada this > disciple had faith in Madhav Maharaja who, as you may know, had given much > opposition to Prabhupada. > > RD: Yeah, Prabhupada didn't like him. > > ST: But this disciple had faith in Madhav Maharaja. But Prabhupada's > campaign was very big and it swept through and this disciple ended up > joining. Afterwards, > his sentiments continued to remain with Madhav Maharaja. So he asked > Prabhupada and > Prabhupada said, 'Yes, I release you, you take initiation from Madhav > Maharaja'. He became Madhav Maharaja's disciple. > > Do you know where the ISKCON devotees learned how to perform Vyasa-puja? > Prabhupada took his disciples to Sridhara Maharaja's Math on the day of his > vyasa-puja. He said, " Today we will learn how to do vyasa-puja. " That was > the first group of devotees who went to India. Prabhupada took them as the > vyasa-puja for Sridhara Maharaja was being performed and they learned about > that > ceremony. Previous to that, no one had performed a vyasa-puja for > Prabhupada. There are innumerable examples how Prabhupada demonstrated > practically that a number of his Godbrothers were qualified gurus. He took > sannyasa from Kesava Maharaja. He didn't take from an unqualified person. > He took it in his Math and Narayana Maharaja was the priest, and already a > sannyasi disciple of Kesava Maharaja. So there is so much evidence that > Prabhupada accepted that a number of his > Godbrothers were qualified gurus. > > END OF PART I. > > > **************************************************************************** > > Part II > > Swami BV Tripurari: In the highest song of Narottama das Thakura, he is > praying to take > shelter of Rupa Manjari. He was a disciple of Lokanatha Goswami. In another > prayer he also says, 'Oh Lokanatha when will you take me by the hand and > place me at the feet of Rupa Manjari?' In this song you can find the highest > truth of Gaudiya Vaisnavism. > > Sarasvati Thakura wanted this song to be sung when he left the world. So he > asked Sridhara Maharaja to sing this song to him. Sridhara Maharaja was > there with him in > Jagannath Puri. Sridhara Maharaja began to sing. Kunjababa, who later became > Tirtha Maharaja, stopped Sridhara Maharaja and asked Bhakti Promode Puri > Maharaja to sing because he had the sweeter voice. So, Puri Maharaja began > to sing, and > Sarasvati Thakura stopped him personally, and said, 'No, I am not > interested in a sweet voice. I want Sridhara Maharaja to sing'. And Puri > Maharaja said later about that, 'At that time I could understand Sarasvati > Thakura had given a special transmission to Sridhara Maharaja, the > Rupanuga sampradaya realization had been put in his heart. He has > acknowledged before all of us that Sridhara Maharaja has realized the > conclusions > of Rupanuga bhakti, the line of Sri Rupa. He has got admittance there.' > And Puri Maharaja's position became so high by saying that. Do you > understand? He was told, 'Don't sing', the implication > being that you don't have the realization. 'I want to hear this song from > Sridhara Maharaja.' And Puri Maharaja bowed to Sridhara Maharaja and > glorified his position and now Puri Maharaja's position has become so high > as a result. He is a real param Vaisnava, Puri Maharaja. > > So these things are there in the history of modern Gaudiya Vaishnavism. > Sarasvati Thakura asked > Sridhara Maharaja to go to the West but he refused to go. Do you know that > story? > > Ritvik Devotee: What is that? > > ST: Bhaktisiddhanta asked Sridhara Maharaja to go to the West. But he > refused to go. So, some say, he is a nonsense but our Prabhupada, he went. > This just > shows what kind of Vaisnavas they are, that they make that type of > interpretation. When you hear this story from Sridhara Maharaja, you can > understand, > 'Oh, yes, this is how Vaisnavas deal with another and with their guru.' > > RD: What happened? > > ST: Sarasvati Thakura said,' I want Sridhara Maharaja to go to the > West.' He chose him personally. And Sridhara Maharaja said, 'Guru Maharaja, > I am reluctant to go for three reasons'. > > 'One, because I can't so well understand the intonation of their English > speaking. That is a little difficult for me. Others are better qualified to > speaking English. Also it has never been my nature to mix so much with the > public, the general > mass of people. You know I come from a brahman family, and these are my > conditionings. And > thirdly, I want to take advantage of every moment, every opportunity I > have, to > have your personal association and stay in the background and hear personally > from you. But if it is your order I must go.' > > And Sarasvati Thakura said, 'You stay.' He liked the third reason. Do you > understand? He liked that. > It is one thing that our Prabhupada went out in separation and did it and it is > glorious. The other side is also glorious. It is vipralamba and sambhoga. > Both things are there. > > They are both glorious. He wanted that and he took advantage of that. Later > Sarasvati Thakura said, 'I had originally chosen Sridhara Maharaja to go > because I knew he could not be converted.' Later, obviously, he chose our > Prabhupada to go. That is obvious. It doesn't mean that everybody else is > disqualified. The Lord works in wonderful ways. Guru parampara works in > wonderful ways. It is not that Bhaktisiddhanda Sarasvati Thakura knew one > day that Abhaya Caran is going to go and do all this. Prabhupada didn't > know everything. Krsna knows. And maybe even Krsna himself doesn't > know . That is what Caitanya Mahaprabhu avatara is all about. > > Krsna doesn't even know Himself fully. You can find references in the Folio > where Prabhupada says this. He is trying to experience Himself as Sri Caitanya > Mahaprabhu. > > So this is our analysis. This is why we go on in the way we are going on here. > And we publish our books and magazines and it is not necessarily different > from the others. > And if I have any good standing it really comes from how I dealt with > Sridhara Maharaja and what I understood there. So we are carrying on in > that way. It is very happy and charming and > endearing. And then I watched the same thing, I watched Sridhara Maharaja > leave the world and I am seeing some parallels to what happened after > Prabhupada left. And it is like history repeating itself in so many ways. > It is very enlightening. So all I can recommend to you is there > is a broader perspective. You came to Krishna consciousness for the truth > and you have got it from certain angles. And there are other angles to > experience it from. And it is well worth it. I did that and I can only > speak of its > virtues, how it has helped me. People criticize me for leaving ISKCON. > I tell you, if I had to do it again, I would have left much sooner. Knowing > what I > learned from leaving. By leaving, I learned more than what I had learned the > whole time I was in. > > Siksa-guru. Sung throughout the scripture. You yourself were saying that > siksa-guru is actually more important that diksa. So we took Sridhara > Maharaja as siksa-guru and Prabhupada opened the door for that. > I never would have gone there. I was a very orthodox follower. And I have a > little rebellious side to me, which makes me a little bit of a maverick and so > forth, but I have another side too. I was very submissive to Prabhupada. I > wasn't as submissive to his GBC, but part of that was not planned. I didn't > even > know what the GBC meant for years. When I was sent to Australia in 1973 to > teach book distribution and from there I was invited to India by Prabhupada > to come for his festival. When I was there Karandhara left the Mission. > Karandhara > was the GBC of Los Angeles and the Los Angeles temple was the only temple > really where I had > any experience. I had gone to New York, gone to Chicago, San > Francisco, a few places, but LA was where all my training and everything > had taken place. I > didn't know so much what the GBC meant. The average brahmacari or > devotee didn't know what was going on, not like it is today. They were just > into > Krsna consciousness. What was going on in all those management meetings, > incense smoke-filled meetings, we didn't know or care. > > And when I went to India that year in 1974, I was so fired up to preach and > distribute books. > That is all I thought about. And I was getting reciprocation from Prabhupada. > I had a plan that came into my mind. Let me go to Chicago where they have a > legal airport, > the only legal airport in the country. And I will set up a base there and I > will invite leading devotees > from different temples to come and I can train them and then they will go > back to their > temples. This was my idea. And I told it to Prabhupada and he said, 'Yes, very > nice, and you do that and come back every year to Mayapur and spend the > month with me.' So then I went. And I just started doing that. A few devotees > came from three or four temples and they stayed. Ramesvara was helping to > manage. He was the organizer. So we were planning together. > > Then they came and stayed for one month and then they were supposed to go > back to their > temples. Three of them came to me and said, 'Maharaja (I wasn't a > Maharaja at that time. I was just a brahmacari.)' They said, 'You know the plan > of this party is that we are supposed to go back to our temples > after one month and new people are supposed to replace us.' And I said, 'Yes, > that's the plan.' And they said, 'Well, we were thinking that maybe you > needed a > couple of men as part of your staff and someone else can come and return.' It > was really very loving. It was like we had a very meaningful, loving > relationship. We lived together in the same room. We read in the car on the > way to the airport. We read on the way back. We stayed back two days a week > and went to every arati and read from one of Prabhupada's books for an > hour, one after the other, first Nectar of Devotion, then arati, we chant four > rounds, we read. That is what we did. That is how we lived for that one > month. We > became very close to one another. That is how my party started. > > What was the GBC? What did that have to do with anything? I just > didn't think about it and my service was going on. It went for one year, > from 1974 > to 1975. And Prabhupada was pleased. I started corresponding with > Prabhupada personally and he was writing me letters and saying nice things. > Then I went to Mayapur. I was still a brahmacari. The GBC called me in and > said, > 'So we want to know, you are traveling here and there and everywhere and > raising lots of money and sending it all to the BBT - so who is your GBC?' > I had never even thought about it. I thought, 'GBC, what the heck is that?' > I said, 'Well, Karandhara was my GBC and he just blooped.' That was as far > back as I could think. I wasn't being facetious.They saw that I was naive. > That is what they thought. > > Then I got a little smart too, at the same time, while I was standing > there. They said, 'Well, if you had to > pick a GBC then which one would you pick?' Then I looked around and I > thought, 'They want me and my party in their zone.' I'm not so naive. I > said, 'Well, I'll pick this one.' I picked a person that I thought would be > low > key because the other GBC men seemed like they wanted to dominate me. And > I walked out of the > meeting. And then they went to Prabhupada with their resolutions. And they > would read their resolutions and Prabhupada would say, 'This is no good, > this is no good, this is good, adjust this one.' And then they > came to Tripurari das. And Prabhupada said, 'What has he done?' And they > said, 'Well, > Prabhupada, he doesn't have a GBC and he is going all over the countryside > from airport to airport, flying, spending money on plane trips...' Prabhupada > cut them off and said, 'He is selling my books. He does not need a GBC.' I > wasn't there but three of the more humble GBCs, three grhastha men, they > came to me afterwards and told me, 'Prabhupada said this about you. We are > sorry that we brought you in and we gave you the third degree > like that. Prabhupada said you don't need a GBC.' And I thought, 'Oh, oh. It's > not like that. Maybe I do need a GBC!' > > But that year Prabhupada gave me sannyasa, ignoring the GBC resolutions > which they had passed, which he had > ratified, which said that for one to receive sannyas you had to be > recommended by a GBC and wait for one > year. One month later Prabhupada gave me sannyasa. And then he placed a > moratorium on sannyasa for two years. So I was very submissive to > Prabhupada. That is why I did what I did, selling those books. It wasn't like I > was a used car salesman before joining the Mission. Somehow Prabhupada used > me in > that way and I was very submissive to him. And I also had this other > side, like a maverick. And when Prabhupada left I was very submissive to > the GBC too. I tried to support them in every way. But it became difficult, > unfortunately. > I was used to going out and giving somebody a book and saying, 'You read this > and you go to any one of these addresses in this book.' I would feel > confident. I > would say that to everyone and that's how I felt. And you go anywhere, to any > one of these addresses, and you are going to get the living thing that is > in this > book, the teachings. And I remember I was in San Francisco selling > books across the Golden Gate Bridge in Sausalito, at Vista Point. And one > day I cried. I gave > someone a book and I started crying. I took the book back realizing that I > couldn't do > this any more. > > I had already given up all managerial responsibilities in ISKCON and I was > just traveling and preaching because I didn't want to be affiliated with any > particular temple or guru. Now I couldn't sell the books. They have > all these addresses. > > And then, by divine providence, I went to Sridhara Maharaja. And whatever I > am doing has > come from that. It hasn't been easy. I left ISKCON with nothing but > a bad reputation unjustly earned. I hadn't done anything wrong. I did > the right thing and I had a bad reputation. But we went off in small way, > tried our best and we feel that we follow the philosophy. We take it from > Sridhara Maharaja and understand it. I > had a great opportunity. Look, here is a pure devotee - here is a pure devotee. > They are different and they are one. This is fascinating. So I could > understand Prabhupada said things according to time and circumstance. > Sridhara Maharaja is saying this way according to time and circumstance. And I > am in another time and circumstance. I can draw from Prabhupada how he > applied a certain circumstance. I can see how Sridhara Maharaja did and I > come up with a synthesis, a third idea based on scripture. > > It is one thing when you follow the father as a child and it is very cute > and everyone likes it. You put > on the father's coat even though it is too big, you put on his shoes...isn't it > cute, he is following his dad. But if that goes on your whole life people > think maybe you are > retarded. The father helps you grow up and add to the business, maybe bring > in new produce, further develop it. > > So, I write books. This is mostly what I do. We try to distribute them > conventionally. > We have formed a publishing company because we don't have an army of people > to go out to the airport and sell books. So we have to do it a different > way. That doesn't mean we're not > distributing any books. Prabhupada wanted books written within the cultural > context in which we live. That makes the truth of Krishna consciousness > much more relevant. Take the analogy of the camel chewing the thorns. What > does that mean? You have to explain it. That is an analogy from the > Bhagavatam based on a way of life found in India. If you say it in India, > anybody immediately understands, it clicks. There is > nothing wrong with giving those analogies. In fact, it is interesting for > Americans to find out > what goes on in other cultures. But when you can make an analogy right from > within the experience of this culture, and you know this - you are a > preacher - it just immediately hits homes and the point goes so much > deeper. When you can draw those kind of analogies, that means you have some > realization of the thing. > > We need real preaching to the people in a relevant way. It has to be like > this, these are the rules. Then people will see that this is really > something, this is alive. I'm getting nourishment from this. I come > forward to take it up and learn it. That is what is required. And there > must be some backing from higher Vaisnavas. What more can you ask then? Go > with it. That to me is encouraging. > > Sridhara Maharaja came for you as much as for me. As much as Prabhupada > came for you, > Sridhara Maharaja came in disciplic succession. You want to look for a > self-effulgent > acarya. When the sun of Prabhupada set, the moon of Sridhara Maharaja > rose and nobody - he didn't do anything to attract any attention whatsoever. > He didn't move a muscle to attract anybody. Prabhupada gestured in that > direction. He was just sitting there chanting Hare Krsna, penetrating the > Bhagavatam, dealing with his disciples in a small way as was his preference > with deep realizations. And they starting coming one after another. And he > tried to help. Meanwhile, they are all over there shining the light on > themselves or having this one shine the light on me, blow my picture up > bigger, you know, more buttons is what we need. More posters is what we > need. Get bumper stickers. This guru is the best guru, you know. Guru, Guru > on the wall, who is the greatest of them all? This is what was going on in > Iskcon. > > And Sridhara Maharaja is sitting there. And I was sitting there hearing the > talks in Maypur. I told you, Prabhupada told me every year to come > to Mayapur. And that was my life. I would see Prabhupada too when he would > come to America sometimes. But in Mayapur, I would spend the whole month > with him and hear his lectures. And I lived for that in Mayapur, to hear his > lectures. And after his disappearance, all I could think was, 'He is gone > and I am hearing > these talks by others and it is different.' Where is the philosophy? And > meanwhile > Sridhara Maharaja is over there, radha-bhagavata katha. And I was a > faithful man. > I was trying to follow the GBC. But people were going over there and saying, > 'he has very deep realizations to say. And I thought, I'm going over there. > Ultimately, I'm > going over there. > > I read Prabhupada's books. I follow Prabhupada books. And the GBC was > teaching Sridhara Maharaja > is against ISKCON and so many things. I never wanted to criticize, but I > thought there must be something right in what they are saying. They are my > senior Godbrothers. > But I saw their own character more and more. Then I thought, I'm going to > read Sridhara Maharaja's book. > Let me read this book and find out what is wrong with it. I know Sridhara > Maharaja is not a Mayavadi. > Or a sahajiya. He is a strict follower of Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati > Thakura. Let me read it. And I was famous for being able to turn any > body's head around in any airport, or in any temple. I was a pretty good > preacher. I was > accustomed to that. So I thought, let me look at it practically and see > what is wrong here. I read one chapter, two chapters, and certain things in > my heart that I had thought about, they were being confirmed in there, > about issues of the day, topics of the hour. And I thought, this is > endearing. > > I read a little further and it wasn't just a book of information. In this > book I was being asked to > surrender more, on a deeper level. I got halfway through the book, I started > crying. And I couldn't put the book down. I finished the book and all I > could think > was, Navadvipa, Navadvipa, there I must go. Then the first thing I did, I > called Sudhira Goswami Maharaja. I said, 'I read the book Sri > Guru and His Grace'. And he said, 'What did you think?' And I said, 'Nobody > could affect me like that but Prabhupada, my guru.' And he said, 'Well if the > incarnation of book distribution likes our book it must be good!' Then we > talked. And I said, 'What do I do now?' And he said,' You should stay in > ISKCON and circulate around quietly because everybody respects you. You are > not in a managerial position. You are a preacher.' And we thought, the > teachings of > Sridhara Maharaja is so nice, surely everybody is just going to realize > this and everything is going > to be fine. It's going to happen any minute. It is so obvious. > > But by this time so many devotees in ISKCON were becoming deeply absorbed > in the politics of the institution. > On top of that many had been offending Sridhara Maharaja and that had a > terriblely negative impact on > their situation. To offend such a person, a param Vaishnava, from the > vyasasana. > They were offending the guru parampara, really. So anyway, I circulated > a little bit and then I was caught preaching about Sridhara Maharaja and was > banished. But I was so much charmed by Srila Sridhara Maharaja. I thought, > no one could turn my head around like this except Prabhupada. And I > realized that guru is one. He is not limited to a particular form or shape. > He is coming in a new energy. The full moon has risen after the setting of > the sun of Prabhupada. Soothing in a quiet way, that was Sridhara > Maharaja's style. But it was light giving and most soothing. > > This same issue of guru succession that you are dealing with came up in the > Gaudiya Math. > I was saying before when Sarasvati Thakura left they all had a different > opinion of what should go on. One time Sridhara Maharaja told, one sannyasi > got up in a meeting, he said, 'None of us here is as qualified as Guru > Maharaja, Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati Thakura'. He said, 'Our Guru Maharaja > is a ray of Visnu. > No one can be as qualified as him amongst us. Even the most qualified > amongst us doesn't compare a fig to him. Therefore, now that he is gone no > one is qualified to fill his shoes.' This was a big sannyasi preacher. He said, > 'Therefore I think what we should do, we should go on in his name and we > shall make disciples on his behalf because he is nitya-siddha. What are we? > But on his behalf we will make disciples. And in this way the mission will go > on.' So he intimidated them all, in one sense. No one is qualified. No one > will say, 'Yes I am qualified'. Then they will show their lack of > qualification. So one > devotee said to Sridhara Maharaja, he said, can you say anything about this? > > And then Sridhara Maharaja said in the assembly, 'Such-as-such Swami has > spoken and everyone knows his faith in Guru Maharaja. No one can doubt that > for a moment. Neither his own qualification as a preacher and still he is > saying > this further showing his qualification, a true Vaisnava, a disciple of our > Guru Maharaja. > He said, so all these things are there. We must admit and praise > him, but above your idea, I have this to say. We are not Sikhs.' > > Then everyone in the assembly said, 'Yes, that's right!' > > The Sikhs, they said, no more gurus after Gaura Govind Singh. > And then everything just deteriorated. Then they realized that it is a nice > sentiment > but it is not a solution to the problem. So I choose 'mahajano yena gatah sa > panthah'. I follow Sridhara Maharaja. . > > I had the choice. And you have the choice. This is the point I am making to > you. You have the choice as well. This is your heritage. This is your family. > Don't take the choice that is not there for you. > > > > > ------ > HARE RAMA KRISHNA > > > ------ > 72% off on Name brand Watches! > Come and buy today and get free shipping! > http://click./1/2712/4/_/2192/_/954597266/ > > -- 20 megs of disk space in your group's Document Vault > -- /docvault/varahamihira/?m=1 > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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