Guest guest Posted February 8, 2000 Report Share Posted February 8, 2000 Jaya Jagannath Dear Zavisa, My personal experience with the local ISKCON has also not been good. I have done a lot for them including " predicting " that their temple in Delhi would be inaugurated by the Prime Minister and Sri Vajpayeeji did do that great act of being the first PM of Independant India to inaugurate a temple and so on. Every sampradaya has good and bad. I did not know about all that " ban " . It is sad. very sad. When Bhakti Siddhanta Prabhuji has accepted someone as his student, then the Parampara should respect His decision. Actually these things are a part of the Western Value system that is creeping into Krishna Consciousness. These things are also happening in other Sampradaya's as a part of the smaller cycle of Kali during the last 120 years from 1880 to 2000. Now that the larger sub-cycle of 480 Years of satwa is going to start from Vaisakha Masa, all this will undergo a big change. Krishna will clean His house before cleaning this world. Be sure this cannot be stopped. In Puri, we hardly get to know all this. In any case I am not bothered as my goals are very small and I am happy in my little world of Jyotish. Be happy Zavisa. This is important. Dina-Nath is also from Croatia..Split. One day he will be a Great Jyotish because he is very truthful. Om Tat Sat Best Wishes Sanjay Rath - Zavisa Nikac <zavisa.nikac Sanjay Rath <rath Cc: Varahamihira <varahamihira > Tuesday, February 08, 2000 2:41 PM Re: jiva, vishnu, chaitanya > Sanjay Rath wrote: > > > > Jaya Jagannath > > Dear Zavisa, > > The Holy Dwadasakshari is meant for worshipping Krishna in His form as > > Vasudeva or the giver of enlightenment (Vasu-Holy Light of knowledge). > > Parasara Muni teaches that the self of Narayana can be viewed as composed of > > four parts. Three of these parts are of Amrita and are beyond the > > conception/reach of mortals. Thus you and I within our limited visions > > CANNOT attain this levels in this body (I accept this fact of my being an > > unholy jiva). For the sake of our understanding Parasara calls this > > ParamBrahma, ParamVishnu and ParamShiva. Thus sampradaya who claim to give > > instant moksha due to a direct link that they have with the " PARA LEVEL " are > > bluffing as it is not possible for mortals like us to attain this. Thus, the > > first teaching of the Parampara is that we should humbly accept our > > limitations. In all the writings of Srila you will find this humility. The > > Ahamkara has to go. > > Parasara also teaches that the fourth part of Narayana is accessible to > > Humans of higher attainments. He uses the name Vasudeva. He further explains > > that these parts are in no way lesser than the whole as given in the mantra > > " OM PURNAMADAH PURNAMIDAM PURNAAT.... " . Thus, there is no difference between > > Narayana, ParamBrahma, ParamShiva and Vasudeva. Any attempt at > > differentiation is a manifestation of our own RajoGuna. For *our > > understanding* Parasara uses these names and He himself does not have > > problems in the understanding being immersed in pure knowledge. Thus from > > the Human viewpoint the only " accessible " portion of Godhead is " Vasudeva " > > or the giver of enlightenment and Parasara also teaches that in the > > Amritatatwa Vasudeva is to be understood as having His two Queens > > (Rukmini-Lakshmi for Satwa Guna and Satyabhama for Rajo Guna). Again, this > > part is not accessible by normal mortals. > > Where do we stand??? Parasara teaches that for the creation, sustenance > > and dissolution of this entire universe Vasudeva has YOGA with his three > > Queens and THIS IS ACCESSIBLE by normal mortals. These three Queens help us > > in the process of creation (Satyabhama-Rajo Guna for creation), sustenance > > (Rukmini -Satwa Guna for sustenance) and Dissolution (Radharani- for > > destruction of Tamas). These three queens play the most vital part in " our " > > Yoga with Vasudeva Krishna. I shall attempt to explain the aspect which is > > most important in Kali Yuga. During Kali, the Tamas will spread rapidly and > > the humans will be in complete illusion. They shall lie and shall share > > lies. Srila has given enough examples on this and I don't have to add > > anymore. Thus, you, I and all these Swami's Guru's etc are going to live in > > this age of illusion and lies. The path for the destruction of Tams is seen > > through Radharani. Now, all texts teach that " Radha is Shiva!! " . This is not > > easy to understand, but I shall try. Shiva is the Yoga for destruction of > > Tamas and Radha is the manifestation of Shiva for Yoga with Vasudeva for the > > sake of destruction of Tamas. Thus, another name for Radha is " Hara or > > Hare " . Hence in the monumental classic Guru Bhakti Gita, Achyuta Prabhu > > teaches that the NATURAL MANTRA FOR KALIYUGA IS " HARE KRISHNA " the four > > letter mantra. Here " Hare " is Shiva and thus, Radharani and Vasudeva is > > Krishna as we see. > > Now I shall attempt to answer your questions. > > You wrote:- > > > > > Sri Sri Guru Gauranga Jayatah > > > > > > Dear Gurudeva, > > > > > > Being under the influence of my " wonderful " combination of Jup and Ketu > > > in 5th I would like to ask you few questions so I could get out of the > > > fog of misunderstanding of that combination. To know what's ketu and > > > what's Jup and their interrelation so to speak. Since you asked me to > > > stay in touch with SJVC an you I am using this opportunity. I want to > > > know what is your position on folowing issues: > > > 1. interrelationship of jiva with brahman > > > 2. interrelation of jiva with Vishnu > > > 3. ontological position of Sri Chaitanya Mahaprabhu in all of this. > > RATH: The first two are easily answered with example of Shiva/Radharani I > > have given earlier. Both words " Vasudeva " and " Chaitanya " have the similar > > goal of giving light/guiding the individual Jiva (to themselves as they are > > the " Ayana " of the " Nara " ). That is why from ages, the following mantras are > > being used: " AIM CHAITANYAYA NAMAH " for the Creative aspect or " HRUM > > CHAITANYAYA NAMAH " for the lighting of a lamp as a symbol of driving aray > > ignorance/tamas and " SRI CHAITANYAYA NAMAH " for preserving the purity of the > > creation or our Ayana. Here, the three beejalshara " AIM " , " HRUM " & " SHRIM " > > are Satyabhama, Radharani and Rukmini respectively. > > > > > > > > You seem to preach that ultimate goal of every jiva in the Brahmanda is > > > to merge with Narayana through dwadasakshari mantra to Vasudeva. > > > > RATH: Yes, at least for the present. If you can reach Vasudeva, the rest of > > the journey is not far. I also preach worshipping Him with the Astakshari Om > > Namo Narayanaya, and am aware of quite a few mantra due to the blessings of > > my elders. Have you ever wondered as to with what mantra an animal worships > > Him? Why are some animals vegetarian and the others non-veg? If animals did > > not worship Him, then how can they improve their Karma to be given Human > > Yoni? Try answering these and you will have the answer to the question of > > Mantra. As far as the mantra I tell my students to practise is concerned, > > you know that it is not this. > > > > > This is the philosophy of yogis, and bhakti to Vasudeva in such > > > tradition is in lines of Bhaktivinode Thakur called yoga-misra bhakti, > > > that is its aim is not pleasing directly to transcendental > > > Vraja(yugala-kisora) Krishna, rather to his expansion Narayana, and its > > > mixed with yoga system, so is called yoga-misra bhakti. There is also > > > karma and jnana misra bhaktis. > > > > RATH: Can you have perfect bhakti?? Is it so easy like buying ice-cream??? > > Let us not fool ourselves. We have desires and goals and for these desires > > and goals we worship Krishna. To this extent our love for Him is " misra " or > > mixed and not pure Bhakti. For perfect bhakti, perfect renunciation of all > > desires has to be there. When this renunciation happens, then alone can > > there be perfect Bhakti. > > > > Now as you are in the tradition of Acyuta > > > dasa who was one of panca-sakha of Mahaprabhu and was following him and > > > consequently addopted(it must be-I cannot accept it otherwise based on > > > my understanding of parampara till now) prema as the 5th > > > purushartha(goal of life) rather than dharma, artha, kama & moksha, and > > > as he is said in Gaura-Gannodesa-dipika to be an incarnation of both > > > Acyuta gopi and Kartikkeya, I then do not understand your position on > > > all of this in regards to your parampara. In one instance you said that: > > > > > RATH: This is due to your lack of appreciation of the principles of Jyotish > > itself, why talk of higher things. When you know the Sankhya shastra (as > > explained by Krishna in the Gita and have the Jyoti to be called a Daivagya) > > you will easily see what I am trying to tell here. In the Bha-Chakra the > > four Ayana of Dharma, Artha, Kama and Moksha are seen from the respective > > trikona called Lagna/Dharma Trikona, Artha/karma trikona, Dara/Kama trikona > > and Sukha/Moksha trikona. These trikona are also understood from the natural > > trines as belonging to Agni, Prithvi, Vayu and Jala respectively. However, > > the Akasha Tatwa permeates all signs. Thus for example in Aries/Mesha Rasi > > you will find a predominance of Agni with Akasha over the other tatwa and > > this is true of the Lagna also. > > Thus if Akash tatwa gives the fifth Ayana of Bhakti and rules the Shanti > > mantra, its manifestation in the Bha-chakra shall " Always " be with one of > > the other four tatwa. Thus in this world men shall always have > > " misra-bhakti " and the very few fortunate ones to have perfect bhakti for > > which they have to rise above the constrints of this Bha-chakra. > > BhaktiVinoda Thakura was trying to explain this and to tell us where we > > stand??? > > Given this clear lines of definition, look at the Guru's and Swami's and > > tell me who is the most perfect one today. Why do some people leave ISKCON > > when they feel that they are not being given the highest position or power > > or authority? Or when they perceive punishment? Are they not fortunate that > > they are not being given the power so that their Bhakti is not diluted? Are > > they not fortunate for being punished for the flesh/beef they have eaten? > > Even if they wished to leave ISKCON, was it proper to start another > > organisation so that they get " adequate " recognition? Why did they not go > > straight to Vrindavan or Jagannath or any other place to spend the rest of > > their lives in spiritual pursuits? Are they prepared to walk out of the > > " leadership " or headship and go to Jagannath for their prayers? The answer > > to these questions from most of the Swami's will be " NO " (Actually they will > > say Yes and this will be a LIE for most of them). > > I have seen many and met many, but there is one person in ISKON, who > > does not enjoy any high position or power and lives a very simple life. He > > follows the pure path and has renounced the American passport so that He can > > stay at Vrindavan permanently. He did not renounce the passport because he > > liked America less, but because he liked Krishna/stay at Vrindavan more. He > > does not drive Mercedes cars for Tirtha Yatra and does not wear saffron > > " silk robes " . He does not have attendants and Sisya to bring his food. He > > earns some little money by writing Books on Krishna Prema and donates most > > of it. He lived in the Himalayas carrying his water and using the natural > > toilets in the open. Believe me if anybody can have him as a Guru he/she > > will be a very fortunate soul. They call him " MAHANIDHI SWAMI " . He was not > > giving Diksha for so many years so that he does not get Ahamkara of being a > > Diksha Guru. I don't know if he has started. > > I am a very small Siksha Guru, and I do not want to lie so I answer > > " YES " to the above question. My yes is limited to my Misra-Bhakti of my > > pursuit of knowledge and for a small person like me, the Guru and the books > > of tradition are important sources of knowledge. Thus I follow Gyana-Misra > > Bhakti with the hope that someday He (Jagannatha Mahaprabhu) will have some > > Mercy for this tormented soul. Sri Sri Achyuta Dasa, one of the Pancha > > Saksha was regarded as Swayam Agni and I pray that He continues to enlighten > > me. > > I am sending this to all the mailing lists so that my stand is > > completely clear and for the benefit of all Jyotisha. My simple message is > > to realise that the Bhagavat Gita is the simplest guide- read, understand > > and DIGEST this (Bhagavat Gita -Asit is by Srila Prabhupada is recommended) > > before talking of big literature. Lead simple lives, follow this path of > > simplicity and atleast be truthful to oneself. > > OM TAT SAT > > Best Wishes > > Sanjay Rath > > Sri Sri Guru Gauranga Jayatah > > I don't follow Goravani's list so will answer only to Varahamihira. > > Yours clarification confirmed my thoughts and I do not want to say > anything. But will comment on this paragraph: > > Given this clear lines of definition, look at the Guru's and Swami's and > > tell me who is the most perfect one today. Why do some people leave ISKCON > > when they feel that they are not being given the highest position or power > > or authority? Or when they perceive punishment? Are they not fortunate that > > they are not being given the power so that their Bhakti is not diluted? Are > > they not fortunate for being punished for the flesh/beef they have eaten? > > Even if they wished to leave ISKCON, was it proper to start another > > organisation so that they get " adequate " recognition? Why did they not go > > straight to Vrindavan or Jagannath or any other place to spend the rest of > > their lives in spiritual pursuits? Are they prepared to walk out of the > > " leadership " or headship and go to Jagannath for their prayers? The answer > > to these questions from most of the Swami's will be " NO " (Actually they will > > say Yes and this will be a LIE for most of them). > > I have seen many and met many, but there is one person in ISKON, who > > does not enjoy any high position or power and lives a very simple life. He > > follows the pure path and has renounced the American passport so that He can > > stay at Vrindavan permanently. He did not renounce the passport because he > > liked America less, but because he liked Krishna/stay at Vrindavan more. He > > does not drive Mercedes cars for Tirtha Yatra and does not wear saffron > > " silk robes " . He does not have attendants and Sisya to bring his food. He > > earns some little money by writing Books on Krishna Prema and donates most > > of it. He lived in the Himalayas carrying his water and using the natural > > toilets in the open. Believe me if anybody can have him as a Guru he/she > > will be a very fortunate soul. They call him " MAHANIDHI SWAMI " . He was not > > giving Diksha for so many years so that he does not get Ahamkara of being a > > Diksha Guru. I don't know if he has started. > > > Yeah, he is respected in local Gaudiya Math here, I must tell you that. > They know about him, and I've read his translation of Chaitanya Mangala. > However why different people and gurus leave Iskcon is much more complex > question then this. Aside from what you told above there are few other > issues. > First there is this controversy about Srila Prabhupada's Godbrothers. He > did criticize them for not preaching as he did and for the split up of > Gaudiya Matha after their guru Bhaktisiddhanta Sarasvati departed. Yet > he was asking them to go preach with him and to help him in that regard. > They did that to a degree. Yet they were depicted in local Iskcon as > some kind of 'enemies' as if they were not his Godbrothers and disciples > of the same Guru (Bhaktisiddhanta). Who gives the right to Srila > Prabhupada's disciple to ban His Godbrother Srila Sridhara Maharaja from > Iskcon, or > Sripada Narayana Maharaja(as you know he is banned). I know his > disciples and they are nice people. Practice same bhakti with certain > differentiation in practice arisen of different guru and mission, which > is completely normal. Basic principles are the same (4), aim is the > same, > sadhana is similar, bhajans are from same acaryas (Bhaktivinode, > Narrottama, Rupa Goswami), and I simply do not understand this > sectarians outlook. Now do not the Godbrothers of Srila Prabhupada have > same right for their missions as he had. In what way are they lesser. > They have the same Guru and same God given right to attain perfection as > Srila Prabhupada did. Why would now their mission be wrong. I being > extremely nonsectarian(have been raised by my parents as such, because > they are of different backgrounds), could not and cannot really tolerate > this. My Swati mind likes to meet different devotees and different > gurus. And therefore I read everything including Siddha, Tripurari > Swami, Narayana Maharaja, Bhaktivaibhava Puri Maharaja, Bhakti Vallabha > Tirtha Maharaja and others. And yes I did not take initiation in Iskcon > nor in Gaudiya Matha yet, as I want to convince myself first that my > guru is what is popularly know as satguru, rather than just a teacher. I > was not convinced in Iskcon, when I look at it now, and people that we > respect like Gaur Govinda Swami(he is universally excepted here), or > like I say some people told me nice things about Mahanidhi Swami, I did > not really meet such people in local Iskcon. And I as anybody else have > Godgiven right to approach a guru that is within parampara, and that > represents parampara, rather then just some partial temporary expression > of parampara. And who says that there are no people outside Iskcon that > are renounced. Have you heard of Akincana Krsnadasa babaji, babaji > disciple of Bhaktisiddhanta. He did not sleep at all, was doing bhajan > all the time, Srila Sridhara Maharaja was heavily chastising him for not > preaching yet he never started. He was just immersed in his bhajan. Then > I recently met Hrishikesh Maharaja when he visited Croatia few weeks > ago. In three weeks that person never missed Mangala Aroti yet he was > preaching all the time till midnight on different programs, almost on > every day. Nor did he sleep during the day time. And in what place, on > the floor near the bed, not on the bed that was present in the same > room, nor even in sleeping bag, just on few mats, and they told me that > when he is with Srila Narayana Maharaja he does not sleep at all. I > asked him how's this possible, he told me some REM phases etc, bla, bla, > yet he that later confirmed me due to spiritual experiences arising from > that advanced company. He is Narayana Maharaja's siksa disciple and > unfortunately due to his Kalasarpa and Mahapadma yogas, and sade sati he > is presently in, he constantly has 'political' troubles yet his > renunciation surprised me. And till I convince myself in such a way of > somebody how then will I accept him as my guru. I cannot accept somebody > that just comes here for three days and then goes away(so many have > fallen). > Then there is this female disciple of Narayana Maharaja that chants 128 > rounds Maha-mantra daily, has already a disciple, forgot her name but > remember her picture. She is in her thirties, lives in Vrindavana. There > are many stories outside that you hear of people having being help by > Krishna etc, like inside. And there are problems as well. For example > there was this thing with Tripurari that he was criticized locally By > Iskcon guru " Prithu das " that he was meeting some women, that his toung > should be cut off. You can imagine what problems this caused. Yet I > asked a few things and got the answer that indeed some Swami that was in > Oregon(in his own place) at a time was having such problems and > Tripurari tried to help > him get out of it(will not mention the names even though I could tell > you personally) and then Prithu used the thing to speak nonsense and > lies about Tripurari. What this leaves me with in my regards to Iskcon? > And he is coGBC for this area(managing person). Let them stop doing > these things and then they will have my respect. As of now I regard them > as just people that practice in bonafide sampradaya yet mostly not > bonafide in and of themselves and for that they are not different from > anybody else involved in Vaisnavism. As long as you follow your guru you > are guru(rather acarya) to a degree you follow. Otherwise it is all big > talk and falldowns. I do not want to engage myself in that. Would rather > not follow anything then cheat myself in the name of religion(anartha > nivritti is different- and for it to start you have to have a > bhajana-kriya that starts with a connection with a bonafide guru). Who > will be my guru I don't know, things are not straight today(with deb Sat > transiting my Jup and Ketu). That they all accept Krishna as their > worsipable object of love will make them perfect one day, and I hope > this want go away from anybody in this world. I accept you as my siksa > guru and thank you for your guidance, yet my position on Iskcon is as I > said up. I am friend with this people as long as they do not criticize > my friends outside of it. There were couple of hundreds of us here and > I've got quite a few of friends from Iskcon still, and pay my respects > to > anybody who surrenders or tries to surrender to Krishna there(as > GauraGovinda Maharaja did). Otherwise there is a small line between > kaitava dharma and bonafide religious process. If it was bonafide once > does not mean it will be for all the time to come. Look what happened to > some > beloved disciples of Bhaktisiddhanta that became sahajiya. Can't this > happen to Srila Prabhupada's disciples. It can.(Even Krishna said > in Gita that it can happen evam parampara praptam..etc) And it can > happen in any > society and to anybody and therefore I do not view Iskcon as only > religion nor will I > do that for any society even if I enter one. They are pure as long as > they follow the tradition of Guru, Sadhu, Sastra in body, mind and words > and beyond. And then their gurus and Krishna will help them. No real > progress is ever lost. I've been raised on books of Maheswarananda and > even though > his philosophy in not completely the same his param gurudeva constantly > spoke the glories of Sat Guru over an ordinary guru and I could not and > cannot but to search for one. I think I saw one(Bhaktisiddhanta's > disciple from Orissa) but who am I to say for others. > > With regards to you and every Vaisnava that tries to love Krishna I > finish this writing with one song from MiraBai: > > Is this > any way > to pray? > Bathed > and fresh, > tilak > > and all, > and a mind > that is full > of mud? > Bound by > desire > > as if > by a thread > the butcher > of wrath > in the heart? > How can > I see > Gopal? > > My senses, like > a greedy cat > how they beg > for food! > > All I do > is feed > them since > I cannot call > to God. > I worship but > > myself, > that's what. > Can the water > of prayer > find a place > upon this rock > > of pride? > >From him > who lives inner > than in, > what can > you hope > > to hide? > The Name > is loud > on the lips; > the heart > doesn't seem > > to hear: > Help me fling off > these clinging > wants > and turn to You, > says Meera. > > > Everybody who tries to worship Krishna like that I'd hope he'd be my > friend. > > > p.s. can I be put again on your Varahamihira list on this address > <zavisa.nikac > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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