Guest guest Posted December 17, 2008 Report Share Posted December 17, 2008 Hello Hari, Hope this might be of some help. If you read about Real Nature of Man, Maya related chapters, Absolute and Manifestation, God in Everything and Realisation in 2nd volume of Swami vivekananda's complete works under the chapter Jnana Yoga. This might give you a different perspective as well. Regards, Sathish --- On Wed, 17/12/08, harinomore <harinomore wrote: > harinomore <harinomore > Re: Existence of Karma > > Wednesday, 17 December, 2008, 9:13 PM > Hi Srinivas, > > Than you for your opinions, > > I am not declining the theory of karma. But some people > just see > things from a different point of view > > The lord would like me to live life as an handicap > > The lord would like me to live life as a wealthy men > > The lord would like me to die early in my life. > > If you see it from this point of view that everything > happens because > of the lord's desire and not out of karma. > > A year back i got an opportunity to look through a naadi > reading and > the very naadi which gave predictions based on the karma > theory,also > clearly stated that everything happens as per the will of > the lord. > Why this contradiction. We will never know... > > With regards > Hari > > > , Srinivas Kasam > <kasam_sri > wrote: > > > > > > Hari, > > > > Thanks for the reply. I beg to differ on the opinion > that " There is > no such thing as Karma " -- Consider a simple example > of a born > handicapped (like born blind, born deaf, born dumb, born > poor) -- Does > not it tell you that it's purely based on the > accumulated Karma why > some people are born handicapped or born underprivileged. > Same rule > applies to all of us who have some or the other > problem...we suffer > because of previous birth's Karma -- Some people call > it as " Heavenly > Revenge " . > > And as you know it very well, the Nadi Astrology is > purely based on > Karmic theory and I strongly believe in that. > > > > I fully agree with you, no matter what the Vedas or > Gita says, my > personal opinion is the same too " Death itself is > Heaven " , leave alone > the next incarnation and what happens in next birth....but > " Death is > the happiest thing " . -- Having said this, I feel there > is a cath to > this notion of " Death is better " -- Until > recently I used to give a > shit to the word " Longevity " . I used to think > that, what will we do by > living longer...instead of facing the deadly challenges of > this > materialistic world...sooner we call it a quit the more > better it > is....but only recently (since last 2 years) I started > thinking > differently and the word " Longevity " makes more > sense to me now > ....because I have 4 years old daughter and I strongly > believe > that....I am the master of her destiny.....I am confident > of shaping > her future....I am confident of ensuring a happy life for > my > daughter....I pray God everyday for this to give me this > ability. > > > > -- Hence now I think that, the more longer I live, the > better I can > serve to my daughter helping her lead a happy life. > > > > Srini > > > > > > --- On Tue, 12/16/08, harinomore > <harinomore wrote: > > > > > harinomore <harinomore > > > Re: Help with > translation of nadi leaves > > > > > > Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 2:36 PM > > > Hi Srinivas, > > > > > > Many people will said that Karma is the answer to > all your > > > questions.But in my opinion, there is no such > thing as > > > karma. We are > > > all like puppets under the control of our master > know as > > > " God " and he > > > moves us as he please. > > > > > > We humans assume the death is bad and living or > birth is > > > good.But the > > > lord sees no such partiality to him everything is > the same. > > > > > > > > > In fact if you read the Srimad Bhagavatam you > will find > > > that death is > > > actually a happier event compared to birth. While > death > > > liberates us > > > from the body and gives us a chance to go back to > > > godhead,Birth puts > > > us back on earth and traps us in a worldly life. > > > > > > With regards > > > Hari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Ramya > > > <ramyasundari@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Srinivas, > > > > > > > > I'm not expert but below are just my > views. Please > > > ignore if it > > > doesn't make sense for you. Thanks. > > > > > > > > To answer your first scenerio the only way > to nullify > > > the karma is > > > thru' spiritual awakening and not doing good > or bad. If > > > you do good, > > > you gain good karma and you'll get the result > of it and > > > if you do bad, > > > you gain bad karma in which case also you'll > see the > > > corresponding > > > result. > > > > > > > > To answer your second scenerio, God only > created the > > > souls, it is > > > humans who learnt to contaminate it. Terrorists > > > contaminated their > > > soul and are killing people which contaminates > their soul > > > even more. > > > When the people are being killed by terrorists > (for eg, > > > mumbai attack, > > > wars) to media or viewers it might be ignorant > people but > > > we never > > > know what is the status of their soul, what wrong > they did > > > during this > > > birth and during the last birth etc. I mean not > to say that > > > they > > > deserve it. I just wanted to say that it is > because of > > > their own karma > > > and is not God to be blamed, it is ourself to be > blamed for > > > whatever > > > we get. > > > > > > > > Also your question on 'another > aspect' is > > > answered from the above. > > > (I'm also a strong believer of God might be > in a > > > different form than > > > yours; reading the below don't think me as an > Atheist. > > > ) To add more > > > to it according to spiritual science and occult > science, > > > there is > > > nothing as God. God is mentioned as a place where > the soul > > > has no > > > dimenstions (including 4th and 5th dimenstion > Time and > > > Plane) and that > > > is why Siddhars were able to see the future from > that place > > > as they > > > can travel easily on all the dimensions when they > don't > > > have any. That > > > can be achieved only when your karma is > nullified. Even we > > > can become > > > a siddhar ; we all may want to but how many tried > for it. > > > All the gods > > > in all the religions might be the various forms > from that > > > place. > > > > > > > > Every human has a God inside which can be > seen only > > > thru' Spiritual > > > awakening; only if you awaken that you'll get > the > > > ability not to > > > commit sins. Everything is in you whichever you > want to > > > know; for > > > everything happening to you you should be blamed, > for > > > everything bad > > > happening in the world is because everyone has > contaminated > > > our own > > > souls contaminating the entire earth so why to > blame God. > > > Don't think > > > jus over your life period (duration) for the > happenings, > > > everything is > > > getting accumulated might 1000s or 2000s of years > we never > > > know; thats > > > why we're in Kali Yuga. > > > > > > > > I've tried to answer you to my best. > Sorry if > > > I've not. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ramya. > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Srinivas Kasam > > > <kasam_sri@> wrote: > > > > Srinivas Kasam <kasam_sri@> > > > > Re: Help with > translation of > > > nadi leaves > > > > > > > > Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 4:08 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On a related topic and In view of the recent > terrorits > > > attack in > > > Mumbai which claimed about 200 lives, I wonder > that, how > > > many births a > > > terrorist would have to take to nullify/fulfill > kis Karma ? > > > > > > > > With little knowledge what I have, I think a > person > > > like terrorist > > > or people like Dawood who are responsible > for killing > > > several people, > > > I can't imagine a way of nullyfying their > karma...so > > > how would such > > > people be nullified of their karma ?? > > > > > > > > (OR) > > > > > > > > Are these terrorits God's weapons to > kill people > > > hence these > > > terrorists do NOT incurr any karma ? > > > > > > > > I am aware of a incident of a person who was > a Sage in > > > his previous > > > birth but unintentionally caused death to a > fellow sage > > > under some > > > circumstances. ...hence in this birth he is born > with > > > " Cerebral Palsy " > > > -- Now, think of a terrorist who kills several > > > people....how many > > > births and how much suffering he has to undergo > to fulfill > > > his karma ? > > > Will the world survive till such a terrorist > nullifies his > > > karma ? Or > > > such terrorist does NOT incurr any karma because > he is none > > > other than > > > God send weapon ? > > > > > > > > On another aspect...... Every spiritual > disclosure > > > says " God > > > protects us always " -- I really wonder what > is God > > > doing when > > > terrorists attack and claim innocent lives ? > > > > > > > > May be there are things that God himself > can't > > > control or God > > > himself would not have imagined when he created > the Cosmos. > > > Of late, > > > an interesting thing striked my mind that....Why > did God > > > create Cosmos > > > ? What is the purpose of this entire world and > mankind ? I > > > know > > > Salvation is the final stage....SO WHAT ??? What > is going > > > to happen > > > with Salvation ? Who asked God to create me and > why I am > > > responsible > > > for the Karmas ? If God had not created me I > would NOT have > > > incurred > > > any karma....and today I or most of the mankind > will not be > > > in the > > > situation of suffering due to karmas. Hence is > God the main > > > root cause > > > for all kinds of karmas ? > > > > > > > > I am sure every individual of the mankind in > their > > > first birth > > > commtis sins and incurr karma and gradually put > in efforts > > > to attain > > > salvation... ..My question is why did God create > mankind in > > > the very > > > first place which is the root cause of all karma > & > > > sufferings. > > > > As they say, " It is human to Err " > so as > > > " It's human to commit sins " > > > -- If there was no element called > " Human " there > > > would not be any thing > > > like karma & suffering. -- Hence I wonder why > did God > > > create humans > > > and this entire Cosmos ? I think God created > humans but did > > > not give > > > enough ability not to commit errors/sins > > > > > > > > -- - What do you all say ? > > > > > > > > NOTE: Please note that, the purpose of > writing the > > > above questions > > > is only to try to understand things better. I am > looking > > > for expert > > > comments in this subject matter, please do not > misinterpret > > > me. I > > > strongly believe in God. > > > > > > > > -- Srini > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 12/14/08, vwsu kota > <pantulu4 (AT) (DOT) > > > co.in> wrote: > > > > > > > > vwsu kota <pantulu4 (AT) (DOT) > co.in> > > > > Re: Help with > translation of > > > nadi leaves > > > > > > > > Sunday, December 14, 2008, 5:20 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > We should be happy that Mr. velmurugan is > doing some > > > research in > > > this field. In fact I suggested this to our Forum > > > coordinators that > > > this is very necessary to throw light on why > certain things > > > happen > > > without our intention or efforts. I will give a > specific > > > example. > > > There was an article on Mugabe, President of > Zimbabwe in > > > Los Angeles > > > Times dt. 14th Dec. The writer narrates that > Mugabe > > > remained in power > > > for the past three decades inspite of killing > thousands of > > > his > > > opponents. How was it possible? We can understand > if the > > > country > > > progressed during the regime. That is not the > case here. > > > Zimbabwe is > > > still backward. The stock answer we get from even > learned > > > people is > > > that it is due to the good things he did in his > previous > > > birth. Can we > > > expect a person who commits horrible crimes in > this life to > > > be a saint > > > in his previous birth? This negates the karma > theory. It is > > > necessary > > > for a good Nadiastrologer to study this case and > > > > pubblicize the findings so that people can > know what > > > exactly > > > happens because of Karma. Right now people just > do not know > > > why things > > > happen. Some people presume it is because of > their efforts. > > > Bush made > > > a mess of the entire system and thousands of > people are on > > > the streets > > > because of that. Still Bush is going scotfree > whereas > > > honest person > > > like VP Singh had to leave within months. Why do > such > > > things happen > > > has to be explained on a rational basis and not > with stock > > > replies > > > like it is his fate. Can some Nadiastrologer > throw light on > > > this dark > > > subject? > > > > Pantulu > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 14/12/08, Velmurugan.M > <mvel_sky (AT) (DOT) > > > co.in> wrote: > > > > > > > > Velmurugan.M <mvel_sky (AT) (DOT) > co.in> > > > > Re: Help with > translation of > > > nadi leaves > > > > > > > > Sunday, 14 December, 2008, 12:27 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > > > > > I am Velmurugan from Chennai. I am insearch > of nadi > > > leaves for > > > research purpose. Can you pls send me the scanned > copy, > > > sothat it will > > > be helpful for me. > > > > > > > > I will also send you the nadi readers > address and > > > phone nos.. > > > > > > > > Can you pls help me.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > M.Velmurugan--- On Sun, 14/12/08, Madhu > > > <madhu_kaz_nair@ .co. > > > in> wrote: > > > > > > > > Madhu <madhu_kaz_nair@ .co. > in> > > > > Help with > translation of > > > nadi leaves > > > > > > > > Sunday, 14 December, 2008, 6:12 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone: > > > > > > > > I got nadi readings online and they gave me > a scanned > > > copy of nadi > > > readings in tamil poetic format and then > translated that > > > into english > > > and sent through email. > > > > > > > > I'm not sure if the translation has > covered all > > > the aspects of my > > > readings so, i was wondering if anyone in this > forum is a > > > nadi reader > > > or knows about a nadi reader who would be willing > to > > > translate my > > > scanned nadi readings over email or phone for a > nominal > > > price. > > > > > > > > Thank you everyone for your patience and > time. > > > > -Madhu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and > enjoy! Invite > > > them now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and > enjoy! Invite > > > them now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 18, 2008 Report Share Posted December 18, 2008 An interesting aside is that i\I have heard that Swamy Vivekananda has taken rebirth as a teenage boy now living in Sri Lanka. He has visited Prashanti Nilayam where he met Sathya Sai Baba who told him about his former life. He is supposed to take over for Sai Baba when he passes on in 2022 and will be reborn again in 8 years as Prema Sai Baba and then eventually return to Prashanti. Aaron sybsat <sybsat Sent: Wednesday, December 17, 2008 6:02:47 AMRe: Re: Existence of Karma Hello Hari, Hope this might be of some help. If you read about Real Nature of Man, Maya related chapters, Absolute and Manifestation, God in Everything and Realisation in 2nd volume of Swami vivekananda' s complete works under the chapter Jnana Yoga. This might give you a different perspective as well. Regards, Sathish --- On Wed, 17/12/08, harinomore <harinomore > wrote: > harinomore <harinomore > > Re: Existence of Karma > > Wednesday, 17 December, 2008, 9:13 PM > Hi Srinivas, > > Than you for your opinions, > > I am not declining the theory of karma. But some people > just see > things from a different point of view > > The lord would like me to live life as an handicap > > The lord would like me to live life as a wealthy men > > The lord would like me to die early in my life. > > If you see it from this point of view that everything > happens because > of the lord's desire and not out of karma. > > A year back i got an opportunity to look through a naadi > reading and > the very naadi which gave predictions based on the karma > theory,also > clearly stated that everything happens as per the will of > the lord. > Why this contradiction. We will never know... > > With regards > Hari > > > > > > > > > > , Srinivas Kasam > <kasam_sri@. ..> > wrote: > > > > > > Hari, > > > > Thanks for the reply. I beg to differ on the opinion > that "There is > no such thing as Karma" -- Consider a simple example > of a born > handicapped (like born blind, born deaf, born dumb, born > poor) -- Does > not it tell you that it's purely based on the > accumulated Karma why > some people are born handicapped or born underprivileged. > Same rule > applies to all of us who have some or the other > problem...we suffer > because of previous birth's Karma -- Some people call > it as "Heavenly > Revenge". > > And as you know it very well, the Nadi Astrology is > purely based on > Karmic theory and I strongly believe in that. > > > > I fully agree with you, no matter what the Vedas or > Gita says, my > personal opinion is the same too "Death itself is > Heaven", leave alone > the next incarnation and what happens in next birth....but > "Death is > the happiest thing". -- Having said this, I feel there > is a cath to > this notion of "Death is better" -- Until > recently I used to give a > shit to the word "Longevity". I used to think > that, what will we do by > living longer...instead of facing the deadly challenges of > this > materialistic world...sooner we call it a quit the more > better it > is....but only recently (since last 2 years) I started > thinking > differently and the word "Longevity" makes more > sense to me now > ....because I have 4 years old daughter and I strongly > believe > that....I am the master of her destiny..... I am confident > of shaping > her future....I am confident of ensuring a happy life for > my > daughter.... I pray God everyday for this to give me this > ability. > > > > -- Hence now I think that, the more longer I live, the > better I can > serve to my daughter helping her lead a happy life. > > > > Srini > > > > > > --- On Tue, 12/16/08, harinomore > <harinomore@ ...> wrote: > > > > > harinomore <harinomore@ ...> > > > Re: Help with > translation of nadi leaves > > > > > > Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 2:36 PM > > > Hi Srinivas, > > > > > > Many people will said that Karma is the answer to > all your > > > questions.But in my opinion, there is no such > thing as > > > karma. We are > > > all like puppets under the control of our master > know as > > > "God" and he > > > moves us as he please. > > > > > > We humans assume the death is bad and living or > birth is > > > good.But the > > > lord sees no such partiality to him everything is > the same. > > > > > > > > > In fact if you read the Srimad Bhagavatam you > will find > > > that death is > > > actually a happier event compared to birth. While > death > > > liberates us > > > from the body and gives us a chance to go back to > > > godhead,Birth puts > > > us back on earth and traps us in a worldly life. > > > > > > With regards > > > Hari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Ramya > > > <ramyasundari@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > Hi Srinivas, > > > > > > > > I'm not expert but below are just my > views. Please > > > ignore if it > > > doesn't make sense for you. Thanks. > > > > > > > > To answer your first scenerio the only way > to nullify > > > the karma is > > > thru' spiritual awakening and not doing good > or bad. If > > > you do good, > > > you gain good karma and you'll get the result > of it and > > > if you do bad, > > > you gain bad karma in which case also you'll > see the > > > corresponding > > > result. > > > > > > > > To answer your second scenerio, God only > created the > > > souls, it is > > > humans who learnt to contaminate it. Terrorists > > > contaminated their > > > soul and are killing people which contaminates > their soul > > > even more. > > > When the people are being killed by terrorists > (for eg, > > > mumbai attack, > > > wars) to media or viewers it might be ignorant > people but > > > we never > > > know what is the status of their soul, what wrong > they did > > > during this > > > birth and during the last birth etc. I mean not > to say that > > > they > > > deserve it. I just wanted to say that it is > because of > > > their own karma > > > and is not God to be blamed, it is ourself to be > blamed for > > > whatever > > > we get. > > > > > > > > Also your question on 'another > aspect' is > > > answered from the above. > > > (I'm also a strong believer of God might be > in a > > > different form than > > > yours; reading the below don't think me as an > Atheist. > > > ) To add more > > > to it according to spiritual science and occult > science, > > > there is > > > nothing as God. God is mentioned as a place where > the soul > > > has no > > > dimenstions (including 4th and 5th dimenstion > Time and > > > Plane) and that > > > is why Siddhars were able to see the future from > that place > > > as they > > > can travel easily on all the dimensions when they > don't > > > have any. That > > > can be achieved only when your karma is > nullified. Even we > > > can become > > > a siddhar ; we all may want to but how many tried > for it. > > > All the gods > > > in all the religions might be the various forms > from that > > > place. > > > > > > > > Every human has a God inside which can be > seen only > > > thru' Spiritual > > > awakening; only if you awaken that you'll get > the > > > ability not to > > > commit sins. Everything is in you whichever you > want to > > > know; for > > > everything happening to you you should be blamed, > for > > > everything bad > > > happening in the world is because everyone has > contaminated > > > our own > > > souls contaminating the entire earth so why to > blame God. > > > Don't think > > > jus over your life period (duration) for the > happenings, > > > everything is > > > getting accumulated might 1000s or 2000s of years > we never > > > know; thats > > > why we're in Kali Yuga. > > > > > > > > I've tried to answer you to my best. > Sorry if > > > I've not. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > Ramya. > > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Srinivas Kasam > > > <kasam_sri@> wrote: > > > > Srinivas Kasam <kasam_sri@> > > > > Re: Help with > translation of > > > nadi leaves > > > > > > > > Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 4:08 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On a related topic and In view of the recent > terrorits > > > attack in > > > Mumbai which claimed about 200 lives, I wonder > that, how > > > many births a > > > terrorist would have to take to nullify/fulfill > kis Karma ? > > > > > > > > With little knowledge what I have, I think a > person > > > like terrorist > > > or people like Dawood who are responsible > for killing > > > several people, > > > I can't imagine a way of nullyfying their > karma...so > > > how would such > > > people be nullified of their karma ?? > > > > > > > > (OR) > > > > > > > > Are these terrorits God' s weapons to > kill people > > > hence these > > > terrorists do NOT incurr any karma ? > > > > > > > > I am aware of a incident of a person who was > a Sage in > > > his previous > > > birth but unintentionally caused death to a > fellow sage > > > under some > > > circumstances. ...hence in this birth he is born > with > > > "Cerebral Palsy" > > > -- Now, think of a terrorist who kills several > > > people....how many > > > births and how much suffering he has to undergo > to fulfill > > > his karma ? > > > Will the world survive till such a terrorist > nullifies his > > > karma ? Or > > > such terrorist does NOT incurr any karma because > he is none > > > other than > > > God send weapon ? > > > > > > > > On another aspect...... Every spiritual > disclosure > > > says "God > > > protects us always" -- I really wonder what > is God > > > doing when > > > terrorists attack and claim innocent lives ? > > > > > > > > May be there are things that God himself > can't > > > control or God > > > himself would not have imagined when he created > the Cosmos. > > > Of late, > > > an interesting thing striked my mind that....Why > did God > > > create Cosmos > > > ? What is the purpose of this entire world and > mankind ? I > > > know > > > Salvation is the final stage....SO WHAT ??? What > is going > > > to happen > > > with Salvation ? Who asked God to create me and > why I am > > > responsible > > > for the Karmas ? If God had not created me I > would NOT have > > > incurred > > > any karma....and today I or most of the mankind > will not be > > > in the > > > situation of suffering due to karmas. Hence is > God the main > > > root cause > > > for all kinds of karmas ? > > > > > > > > I am sure every individual of the mankind in > their > > > first birth > > > commtis sins and incurr karma and gradually put > in efforts > > > to attain > > > salvation... ..My question is why did God create > mankind in > > > the very > > > first place which is the root cause of all karma > & > > > sufferings. > > > > As they say, "It is human to Err" > so as > > > "It's human to commit sins" > > > -- If there was no element called > "Human" there > > > would not be any thing > > > like karma & suffering. -- Hence I wonder why > did God > > > create humans > > > and this entire Cosmos ? I think God created > humans but did > > > not give > > > enough ability not to commit errors/sins > > > > > > > > -- - What do you all say ? > > > > > > > > NOTE: Please note that, the purpose of > writing the > > > above questions > > > is only to try to understand things better. I am > looking > > > for expert > > > comments in this subject matter, please do not > misinterpret > > > me. I > > > strongly believe in God. > > > > > > > > -- Srini > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 12/14/08, vwsu kota > <pantulu4 (AT) (DOT) > > > co.in> wrote: > > > > > > > > vwsu kota <pantulu4 (AT) (DOT) > co.in> > > > > Re: Help with > translation of > > > nadi leaves > > > > > > > > Sunday, December 14, 2008, 5:20 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends, > > > > We should be happy that Mr. velmurugan is > doing some > > > research in > > > this field. In fact I suggested this to our Forum > > > coordinators that > > > this is very necessary to throw light on why > certain things > > > happen > > > without our intention or efforts. I will give a > specific > > > example. > > > There was an article on Mugabe, President of > Zimbabwe in > > > Los Angeles > > > Times dt. 14th Dec. The writer narrates that > Mugabe > > > remained in power > > > for the past three decades inspite of killing > thousands of > > > his > > > opponents. How was it possible? We can understand > if the > > > country > > > progressed during the regime. That is not the > case here. > > > Zimbabwe is > > > still backward. The stock answer we get from even > learned > > > people is > > > that it is due to the good things he did in his > previous > > > birth. Can we > > > expect a person who commits horrible crimes in > this life to > > > be a saint > > > in his previous birth? This negates the karma > theory. It is > > > necessary > > > for a good Nadiastrologer to study this case and > > > > pubblicize the findings so that people can > know what > > > exactly > > > happens because of Karma. Right now people just > do not know > > > why things > > > happen. Some people presume it is because of > their efforts. > > > Bush made > > > a mess of the entire system and thousands of > people are on > > > the streets > > > because of that. Still Bush is going scotfree > whereas > > > honest person > > > like VP Singh had to leave within months. Why do > such > > > things happen > > > has to be explained on a rational basis and not > with stock > > > replies > > > like it is his fate. Can some Nadiastrologer > throw light on > > > this dark > > > subject? > > > > Pantulu > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 14/12/08, Velmurugan.M > <mvel_sky (AT) (DOT) > > > co.in> wrote: > > > > > > > > Velmurugan.M <mvel_sky (AT) (DOT) > co.in> > > > > Re: Help with > translation of > > > nadi leaves > > > > > > > > Sunday, 14 December, 2008, 12:27 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Friend, > > > > > > > > I am Velmurugan from Chennai. I am insearch > of nadi > > > leaves for > > > research purpose. Can you pls send me the scanned > copy, > > > sothat it will > > > be helpful for me. > > > > > > > > I will also send you the nadi readers > address and > > > phone nos.. > > > > > > > > Can you pls help me.... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards > > > > M.Velmurugan- -- On Sun, 14/12/08, Madhu > > > <madhu_kaz_nair@ .co. > > > in> wrote: > > > > > > > > Madhu <madhu_kaz_nair@ .co. > in> > > > > Help with > translation of > > > nadi leaves > > > > > > > > Sunday, 14 December, 2008, 6:12 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone: > > > > > > > > I got nadi readings online and they gave me > a scanned > > > copy of nadi > > > readings in tamil poetic format and then > translated that > > > into english > > > and sent through email. > > > > > > > > I'm not sure if the translation has > covered all > > > the aspects of my > > > readings so, i was wondering if anyone in this > forum is a > > > nadi reader > > > or knows about a nadi reader who would be willing > to > > > translate my > > > scanned nadi readings over email or phone for a > nominal > > > price. > > > > > > > > Thank you everyone for your patience and > time. > > > > -Madhu > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and > enjoy! Invite > > > them now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and > enjoy! Invite > > > them now. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------ > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 Dear all, Why is Sathya Sai Baba coming into picture in Nadi groups.And why do you guys call him sathya -he is a complete fraud man.Please wake up my dear friends.He cheats his followers by doing simple stuffs that people call miracle (I'm also a Magician and do many such stuffs (even more stuffs than sai baba)but I do this for entertaining people.I dont claim that I have supernatural powers as like that fraud self -styled godman-Sai Baba).If you guys want to know how to make ash /materials ,I can reveal the secret.But ,please dont bring Sai baba in Nadi groups at all.He is a very ordinary man like us.But one thing ,I would like to tell all is NADI is very superior and mind boggling.Everything that has been mentioned in my leaf has happened in my as well as my families leaves in the last 5 years.Hope that this nadigroup remains dedicated to nadi itself.RegardsDr Pampa--- On Wed, 12/17/08, Aaron Bandy <aaron.bandy wrote: Aaron Bandy <aaron.bandyRe: Re: Existence of Karma Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2008, 7:23 PM An interesting aside is that i\I have heard that Swamy Vivekananda has taken rebirth as a teenage boy now living in Sri Lanka. He has visited Prashanti Nilayam where he met Sathya Sai Baba who told him about his former life. He is supposed to take over for Sai Baba when he passes on in 2022 and will be reborn again in 8 years as Prema Sai Baba and then eventually return to Prashanti. Aaron sybsat <sybsat >Wednesday, December 17, 2008 6:02:47 AMRe: Re: Existence of Karma Hello Hari,Hope this might be of some help. If you read about Real Nature of Man, Maya related chapters, Absolute and Manifestation, God in Everything and Realisation in 2nd volume of Swami vivekananda' s complete works under the chapter Jnana Yoga. This might give you a different perspective as well.Regards,Sathish--- On Wed, 17/12/08, harinomore <harinomore > wrote:> harinomore <harinomore >> Re: Existence of Karma> > Wednesday, 17 December, 2008, 9:13 PM> Hi Srinivas,> > Than you for your opinions, > > I am not declining the theory of karma. But some people> just see> things from a different point of view> > The lord would like me to live life as an handicap > > The lord would like me to live life as a wealthy men > > The lord would like me to die early in my life.> > If you see it from this point of view that everything> happens because> of the lord's desire and not out of karma.> > A year back i got an opportunity to look through a naadi> reading and> the very naadi which gave predictions based on the karma> theory,also> clearly stated that everything happens as per the will of> the lord.> Why this contradiction. We will never know...> > With regards > Hari> > > > > > > > > > , Srinivas Kasam> <kasam_sri@. ..>> wrote:> >> > > > Hari,> > > > Thanks for the reply. I beg to differ on the opinion> that "There is> no such thing as Karma" -- Consider a simple example> of a born> handicapped (like born blind, born deaf, born dumb, born> poor) -- Does> not it tell you that it's purely based on the> accumulated Karma why> some people are born handicapped or born underprivileged.> Same rule> applies to all of us who have some or the other> problem...we suffer> because of previous birth's Karma -- Some people call> it as "Heavenly> Revenge".> > And as you know it very well, the Nadi Astrology is> purely based on> Karmic theory and I strongly believe in that.> > > > I fully agree with you, no matter what the Vedas or> Gita says, my> personal opinion is the same too "Death itself is> Heaven", leave alone> the next incarnation and what happens in next birth....but> "Death is> the happiest thing". -- Having said this, I feel there> is a cath to> this notion of "Death is better" -- Until> recently I used to give a> shit to the word "Longevity". I used to think> that, what will we do by> living longer...instead of facing the deadly challenges of> this> materialistic world...sooner we call it a quit the more> better it> is....but only recently (since last 2 years) I started> thinking> differently and the word "Longevity" makes more> sense to me now> ....because I have 4 years old daughter and I strongly> believe> that....I am the master of her destiny..... I am confident> of shaping> her future....I am confident of ensuring a happy life for> my> daughter.... I pray God everyday for this to give me this> ability. > > > > -- Hence now I think that, the more longer I live, the> better I can> serve to my daughter helping her lead a happy life.> > > > Srini> > > > > > --- On Tue, 12/16/08, harinomore> <harinomore@ ...> wrote:> > > > > harinomore <harinomore@ ...>> > > Re: Help with> translation of nadi leaves> > > > > > Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 2:36 PM> > > Hi Srinivas,> > > > > > Many people will said that Karma is the answer to> all your> > > questions.But in my opinion, there is no such> thing as> > > karma. We are> > > all like puppets under the control of our master> know as> > > "God" and he> > > moves us as he please.> > > > > > We humans assume the death is bad and living or> birth is> > > good.But the> > > lord sees no such partiality to him everything is> the same.> > > > > > > > > In fact if you read the Srimad Bhagavatam you> will find> > > that death is> > > actually a happier event compared to birth. While> death> > > liberates us> > > from the body and gives us a chance to go back to> > > godhead,Birth puts> > > us back on earth and traps us in a worldly life.> > > > > > With regards> > > Hari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Ramya> > > <ramyasundari@ > wrote:> > > >> > > > Hi Srinivas,> > > > > > > > I'm not expert but below are just my> views. Please> > > ignore if it> > > doesn't make sense for you. Thanks.> > > > > > > > To answer your first scenerio the only way> to nullify> > > the karma is> > > thru' spiritual awakening and not doing good> or bad. If> > > you do good,> > > you gain good karma and you'll get the result> of it and> > > if you do bad,> > > you gain bad karma in which case also you'll> see the> > > corresponding> > > result. > > > > > > > > To answer your second scenerio, God only> created the> > > souls, it is> > > humans who learnt to contaminate it. Terrorists> > > contaminated their> > > soul and are killing people which contaminates> their soul> > > even more.> > > When the people are being killed by terrorists> (for eg,> > > mumbai attack,> > > wars) to media or viewers it might be ignorant> people but> > > we never> > > know what is the status of their soul, what wrong> they did> > > during this> > > birth and during the last birth etc. I mean not> to say that> > > they> > > deserve it. I just wanted to say that it is> because of> > > their own karma> > > and is not God to be blamed, it is ourself to be> blamed for> > > whatever> > > we get. > > > > > > > > Also your question on 'another> aspect' is> > > answered from the above.> > > (I'm also a strong believer of God might be> in a> > > different form than> > > yours; reading the below don't think me as an> Atheist.> > > ) To add more> > > to it according to spiritual science and occult> science,> > > there is> > > nothing as God. God is mentioned as a place where> the soul> > > has no> > > dimenstions (including 4th and 5th dimenstion> Time and> > > Plane) and that> > > is why Siddhars were able to see the future from> that place> > > as they> > > can travel easily on all the dimensions when they> don't> > > have any. That> > > can be achieved only when your karma is> nullified. Even we> > > can become> > > a siddhar ; we all may want to but how many tried> for it.> > > All the gods> > > in all the religions might be the various forms> from that> > > place. > > > > > > > > Every human has a God inside which can be> seen only> > > thru' Spiritual> > > awakening; only if you awaken that you'll get> the> > > ability not to> > > commit sins. Everything is in you whichever you> want to> > > know; for> > > everything happening to you you should be blamed,> for> > > everything bad> > > happening in the world is because everyone has> contaminated> > > our own> > > souls contaminating the entire earth so why to> blame God.> > > Don't think> > > jus over your life period (duration) for the> happenings,> > > everything is> > > getting accumulated might 1000s or 2000s of years> we never> > > know; thats> > > why we're in Kali Yuga. > > > > > > > > I've tried to answer you to my best.> Sorry if> > > I've not. > > > > > > > > Thanks,> > > > Ramya.> > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Srinivas Kasam> > > <kasam_sri@> wrote:> > > > Srinivas Kasam <kasam_sri@>> > > > Re: Help with> translation of> > > nadi leaves> > > > > > > > Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 4:08 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On a related topic and In view of the recent> terrorits> > > attack in> > > Mumbai which claimed about 200 lives, I wonder> that, how> > > many births a> > > terrorist would have to take to nullify/fulfill> kis Karma ?> > > > > > > > With little knowledge what I have, I think a> person> > > like terrorist> > > or people like Dawood who are responsible> for killing> > > several people,> > > I can't imagine a way of nullyfying their> karma...so> > > how would such> > > people be nullified of their karma ??> > > > > > > > (OR)> > > > > > > > Are these terrorits God' s weapons to> kill people> > > hence these> > > terrorists do NOT incurr any karma ?> > > > > > > > I am aware of a incident of a person who was> a Sage in> > > his previous> > > birth but unintentionally caused death to a> fellow sage> > > under some> > > circumstances. ...hence in this birth he is born> with> > > "Cerebral Palsy"> > > -- Now, think of a terrorist who kills several> > > people....how many> > > births and how much suffering he has to undergo> to fulfill> > > his karma ?> > > Will the world survive till such a terrorist> nullifies his> > > karma ? Or> > > such terrorist does NOT incurr any karma because> he is none> > > other than> > > God send weapon ?> > > > > > > > On another aspect...... Every spiritual> disclosure> > > says "God> > > protects us always" -- I really wonder what> is God> > > doing when> > > terrorists attack and claim innocent lives ?> > > > > > > > May be there are things that God himself> can't> > > control or God> > > himself would not have imagined when he created> the Cosmos.> > > Of late,> > > an interesting thing striked my mind that....Why> did God> > > create Cosmos> > > ? What is the purpose of this entire world and> mankind ? I> > > know> > > Salvation is the final stage....SO WHAT ??? What> is going> > > to happen> > > with Salvation ? Who asked God to create me and> why I am> > > responsible> > > for the Karmas ? If God had not created me I> would NOT have> > > incurred> > > any karma....and today I or most of the mankind> will not be> > > in the> > > situation of suffering due to karmas. Hence is> God the main> > > root cause> > > for all kinds of karmas ?> > > > > > > > I am sure every individual of the mankind in> their> > > first birth> > > commtis sins and incurr karma and gradually put> in efforts> > > to attain> > > salvation... ..My question is why did God create> mankind in> > > the very> > > first place which is the root cause of all karma> & > > > sufferings.> > > > As they say, "It is human to Err"> so as> > > "It's human to commit sins"> > > -- If there was no element called> "Human" there> > > would not be any thing> > > like karma & suffering. -- Hence I wonder why> did God> > > create humans> > > and this entire Cosmos ? I think God created> humans but did> > > not give> > > enough ability not to commit errors/sins > > > > > > > > -- - What do you all say ?> > > > > > > > NOTE: Please note that, the purpose of> writing the> > > above questions> > > is only to try to understand things better. I am> looking> > > for expert> > > comments in this subject matter, please do not> misinterpret> > > me. I> > > strongly believe in God.> > > > > > > > -- Srini> > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 12/14/08, vwsu kota> <pantulu4 (AT) (DOT) > > > co.in> wrote:> > > > > > > > vwsu kota <pantulu4 (AT) (DOT) > co.in>> > > > Re: Help with> translation of> > > nadi leaves> > > > > > > > Sunday, December 14, 2008, 5:20 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends,> > > > We should be happy that Mr. velmurugan is> doing some> > > research in> > > this field. In fact I suggested this to our Forum> > > coordinators that> > > this is very necessary to throw light on why> certain things> > > happen> > > without our intention or efforts. I will give a> specific> > > example.> > > There was an article on Mugabe, President of> Zimbabwe in> > > Los Angeles> > > Times dt. 14th Dec. The writer narrates that> Mugabe> > > remained in power> > > for the past three decades inspite of killing> thousands of> > > his> > > opponents. How was it possible? We can understand> if the> > > country> > > progressed during the regime. That is not the> case here.> > > Zimbabwe is> > > still backward. The stock answer we get from even> learned> > > people is> > > that it is due to the good things he did in his> previous> > > birth. Can we> > > expect a person who commits horrible crimes in> this life to> > > be a saint> > > in his previous birth? This negates the karma> theory. It is> > > necessary> > > for a good Nadiastrologer to study this case and> > > > pubblicize the findings so that people can> know what> > > exactly> > > happens because of Karma. Right now people just> do not know> > > why things> > > happen. Some people presume it is because of> their efforts.> > > Bush made> > > a mess of the entire system and thousands of> people are on> > > the streets> > > because of that. Still Bush is going scotfree> whereas> > > honest person> > > like VP Singh had to leave within months. Why do> such> > > things happen> > > has to be explained on a rational basis and not> with stock> > > replies> > > like it is his fate. Can some Nadiastrologer> throw light on> > > this dark> > > subject?> > > > Pantulu> > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 14/12/08, Velmurugan.M> <mvel_sky (AT) (DOT) > > > co.in> wrote:> > > > > > > > Velmurugan.M <mvel_sky (AT) (DOT) > co.in>> > > > Re: Help with> translation of> > > nadi leaves> > > > > > > > Sunday, 14 December, 2008, 12:27 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Friend,> > > > > > > > I am Velmurugan from Chennai. I am insearch> of nadi> > > leaves for> > > research purpose. Can you pls send me the scanned> copy,> > > sothat it will> > > be helpful for me. > > > > > > > > I will also send you the nadi readers> address and> > > phone nos..> > > > > > > > Can you pls help me....> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards> > > > M.Velmurugan- -- On Sun, 14/12/08, Madhu> > > <madhu_kaz_nair@ .co.> > > in> wrote:> > > > > > > > Madhu <madhu_kaz_nair@ .co.> in>> > > > Help with> translation of> > > nadi leaves> > > > > > > > Sunday, 14 December, 2008, 6:12 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone:> > > > > > > > I got nadi readings online and they gave me> a scanned> > > copy of nadi> > > readings in tamil poetic format and then> translated that> > > into english> > > and sent through email.> > > > > > > > I'm not sure if the translation has> covered all> > > the aspects of my> > > readings so, i was wondering if anyone in this> forum is a> > > nadi reader> > > or knows about a nadi reader who would be willing> to> > > translate my> > > scanned nadi readings over email or phone for a> nominal> > > price.> > > > > > > > Thank you everyone for your patience and> time.> > > > -Madhu> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and> enjoy! Invite> > > them now.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and> enjoy! Invite> > > them now.> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------> > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 Guys, Just a question, ask your selves. Why people are dying on the correctness of the past that Nadi tells and NOT on the failures of its predicition. Can you please think of that. Open up guys. Use your minds.. Don't get blinded by the corectness of past. Wake up. Regards Jordan - pampavasan nair Cc: pampavasan gopalakrishnan nair Friday, December 19, 2008 2:12 PM Re: Re: Existence of Karma Dear all, Why is Sathya Sai Baba coming into picture in Nadi groups.And why do you guys call him sathya -he is a complete fraud man.Please wake up my dear friends.He cheats his followers by doing simple stuffs that people call miracle (I'm also a Magician and do many such stuffs (even more stuffs than sai baba)but I do this for entertaining people.I dont claim that I have supernatural powers as like that fraud self -styled godman-Sai Baba).If you guys want to know how to make ash /materials ,I can reveal the secret.But ,please dont bring Sai baba in Nadi groups at all.He is a very ordinary man like us.But one thing ,I would like to tell all is NADI is very superior and mind boggling.Everything that has been mentioned in my leaf has happened in my as well as my families leaves in the last 5 years.Hope that this nadigroup remains dedicated to nadi itself.RegardsDr Pampa--- On Wed, 12/17/08, Aaron Bandy <aaron.bandy > wrote: Aaron Bandy <aaron.bandy >Re: Re: Existence of Karma Date: Wednesday, December 17, 2008, 7:23 PM An interesting aside is that i\I have heard that Swamy Vivekananda has taken rebirth as a teenage boy now living in Sri Lanka. He has visited Prashanti Nilayam where he met Sathya Sai Baba who told him about his former life. He is supposed to take over for Sai Baba when he passes on in 2022 and will be reborn again in 8 years as Prema Sai Baba and then eventually return to Prashanti. Aaron sybsat <sybsat >Wednesday, December 17, 2008 6:02:47 AMRe: Re: Existence of Karma Hello Hari,Hope this might be of some help. If you read about Real Nature of Man, Maya related chapters, Absolute and Manifestation, God in Everything and Realisation in 2nd volume of Swami vivekananda' s complete works under the chapter Jnana Yoga. This might give you a different perspective as well.Regards,Sathish--- On Wed, 17/12/08, harinomore <harinomore > wrote:> harinomore <harinomore >> Re: Existence of Karma> > Wednesday, 17 December, 2008, 9:13 PM> Hi Srinivas,> > Than you for your opinions, > > I am not declining the theory of karma. But some people> just see> things from a different point of view> > The lord would like me to live life as an handicap > > The lord would like me to live life as a wealthy men > > The lord would like me to die early in my life.> > If you see it from this point of view that everything> happens because> of the lord's desire and not out of karma.> > A year back i got an opportunity to look through a naadi> reading and> the very naadi which gave predictions based on the karma> theory,also> clearly stated that everything happens as per the will of> the lord.> Why this contradiction. We will never know...> > With regards > Hari> > > > > > > > > > , Srinivas Kasam> <kasam_sri@. ..>> wrote:> >> > > > Hari,> > > > Thanks for the reply. I beg to differ on the opinion> that "There is> no such thing as Karma" -- Consider a simple example> of a born> handicapped (like born blind, born deaf, born dumb, born> poor) -- Does> not it tell you that it's purely based on the> accumulated Karma why> some people are born handicapped or born underprivileged.> Same rule> applies to all of us who have some or the other> problem...we suffer> because of previous birth's Karma -- Some people call> it as "Heavenly> Revenge".> > And as you know it very well, the Nadi Astrology is> purely based on> Karmic theory and I strongly believe in that.> > > > I fully agree with you, no matter what the Vedas or> Gita says, my> personal opinion is the same too "Death itself is> Heaven", leave alone> the next incarnation and what happens in next birth....but> "Death is> the happiest thing". -- Having said this, I feel there> is a cath to> this notion of "Death is better" -- Until> recently I used to give a> shit to the word "Longevity". I used to think> that, what will we do by> living longer...instead of facing the deadly challenges of> this> materialistic world...sooner we call it a quit the more> better it> is....but only recently (since last 2 years) I started> thinking> differently and the word "Longevity" makes more> sense to me now> ....because I have 4 years old daughter and I strongly> believe> that....I am the master of her destiny..... I am confident> of shaping> her future....I am confident of ensuring a happy life for> my> daughter.... I pray God everyday for this to give me this> ability. > > > > -- Hence now I think that, the more longer I live, the> better I can> serve to my daughter helping her lead a happy life.> > > > Srini> > > > > > --- On Tue, 12/16/08, harinomore> <harinomore@ ...> wrote:> > > > > harinomore <harinomore@ ...>> > > Re: Help with> translation of nadi leaves> > > > > > Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 2:36 PM> > > Hi Srinivas,> > > > > > Many people will said that Karma is the answer to> all your> > > questions.But in my opinion, there is no such> thing as> > > karma. We are> > > all like puppets under the control of our master> know as> > > "God" and he> > > moves us as he please.> > > > > > We humans assume the death is bad and living or> birth is> > > good.But the> > > lord sees no such partiality to him everything is> the same.> > > > > > > > > In fact if you read the Srimad Bhagavatam you> will find> > > that death is> > > actually a happier event compared to birth. While> death> > > liberates us> > > from the body and gives us a chance to go back to> > > godhead,Birth puts> > > us back on earth and traps us in a worldly life.> > > > > > With regards> > > Hari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Ramya> > > <ramyasundari@ > wrote:> > > >> > > > Hi Srinivas,> > > > > > > > I'm not expert but below are just my> views. Please> > > ignore if it> > > doesn't make sense for you. Thanks.> > > > > > > > To answer your first scenerio the only way> to nullify> > > the karma is> > > thru' spiritual awakening and not doing good> or bad. If> > > you do good,> > > you gain good karma and you'll get the result> of it and> > > if you do bad,> > > you gain bad karma in which case also you'll> see the> > > corresponding> > > result. > > > > > > > > To answer your second scenerio, God only> created the> > > souls, it is> > > humans who learnt to contaminate it. Terrorists> > > contaminated their> > > soul and are killing people which contaminates> their soul> > > even more.> > > When the people are being killed by terrorists> (for eg,> > > mumbai attack,> > > wars) to media or viewers it might be ignorant> people but> > > we never> > > know what is the status of their soul, what wrong> they did> > > during this> > > birth and during the last birth etc. I mean not> to say that> > > they> > > deserve it. I just wanted to say that it is> because of> > > their own karma> > > and is not God to be blamed, it is ourself to be> blamed for> > > whatever> > > we get. > > > > > > > > Also your question on 'another> aspect' is> > > answered from the above.> > > (I'm also a strong believer of God might be> in a> > > different form than> > > yours; reading the below don't think me as an> Atheist.> > > ) To add more> > > to it according to spiritual science and occult> science,> > > there is> > > nothing as God. God is mentioned as a place where> the soul> > > has no> > > dimenstions (including 4th and 5th dimenstion> Time and> > > Plane) and that> > > is why Siddhars were able to see the future from> that place> > > as they> > > can travel easily on all the dimensions when they> don't> > > have any. That> > > can be achieved only when your karma is> nullified. Even we> > > can become> > > a siddhar ; we all may want to but how many tried> for it.> > > All the gods> > > in all the religions might be the various forms> from that> > > place. > > > > > > > > Every human has a God inside which can be> seen only> > > thru' Spiritual> > > awakening; only if you awaken that you'll get> the> > > ability not to> > > commit sins. Everything is in you whichever you> want to> > > know; for> > > everything happening to you you should be blamed,> for> > > everything bad> > > happening in the world is because everyone has> contaminated> > > our own> > > souls contaminating the entire earth so why to> blame God.> > > Don't think> > > jus over your life period (duration) for the> happenings,> > > everything is> > > getting accumulated might 1000s or 2000s of years> we never> > > know; thats> > > why we're in Kali Yuga. > > > > > > > > I've tried to answer you to my best.> Sorry if> > > I've not. > > > > > > > > Thanks,> > > > Ramya.> > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Srinivas Kasam> > > <kasam_sri@> wrote:> > > > Srinivas Kasam <kasam_sri@>> > > > Re: Help with> translation of> > > nadi leaves> > > > > > > > Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 4:08 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On a related topic and In view of the recent> terrorits> > > attack in> > > Mumbai which claimed about 200 lives, I wonder> that, how> > > many births a> > > terrorist would have to take to nullify/fulfill> kis Karma ?> > > > > > > > With little knowledge what I have, I think a> person> > > like terrorist> > > or people like Dawood who are responsible> for killing> > > several people,> > > I can't imagine a way of nullyfying their> karma...so> > > how would such> > > people be nullified of their karma ??> > > > > > > > (OR)> > > > > > > > Are these terrorits God' s weapons to> kill people> > > hence these> > > terrorists do NOT incurr any karma ?> > > > > > > > I am aware of a incident of a person who was> a Sage in> > > his previous> > > birth but unintentionally caused death to a> fellow sage> > > under some> > > circumstances. ...hence in this birth he is born> with> > > "Cerebral Palsy"> > > -- Now, think of a terrorist who kills several> > > people....how many> > > births and how much suffering he has to undergo> to fulfill> > > his karma ?> > > Will the world survive till such a terrorist> nullifies his> > > karma ? Or> > > such terrorist does NOT incurr any karma because> he is none> > > other than> > > God send weapon ?> > > > > > > > On another aspect...... Every spiritual> disclosure> > > says "God> > > protects us always" -- I really wonder what> is God> > > doing when> > > terrorists attack and claim innocent lives ?> > > > > > > > May be there are things that God himself> can't> > > control or God> > > himself would not have imagined when he created> the Cosmos.> > > Of late,> > > an interesting thing striked my mind that....Why> did God> > > create Cosmos> > > ? What is the purpose of this entire world and> mankind ? I> > > know> > > Salvation is the final stage....SO WHAT ??? What> is going> > > to happen> > > with Salvation ? Who asked God to create me and> why I am> > > responsible> > > for the Karmas ? If God had not created me I> would NOT have> > > incurred> > > any karma....and today I or most of the mankind> will not be> > > in the> > > situation of suffering due to karmas. Hence is> God the main> > > root cause> > > for all kinds of karmas ?> > > > > > > > I am sure every individual of the mankind in> their> > > first birth> > > commtis sins and incurr karma and gradually put> in efforts> > > to attain> > > salvation... ..My question is why did God create> mankind in> > > the very> > > first place which is the root cause of all karma> & > > > sufferings.> > > > As they say, "It is human to Err"> so as> > > "It's human to commit sins"> > > -- If there was no element called> "Human" there> > > would not be any thing> > > like karma & suffering. -- Hence I wonder why> did God> > > create humans> > > and this entire Cosmos ? I think God created> humans but did> > > not give> > > enough ability not to commit errors/sins > > > > > > > > -- - What do you all say ?> > > > > > > > NOTE: Please note that, the purpose of> writing the> > > above questions> > > is only to try to understand things better. I am> looking> > > for expert> > > comments in this subject matter, please do not> misinterpret> > > me. I> > > strongly believe in God.> > > > > > > > -- Srini> > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 12/14/08, vwsu kota> <pantulu4 (AT) (DOT) > > > co.in> wrote:> > > > > > > > vwsu kota <pantulu4 (AT) (DOT) > co.in>> > > > Re: Help with> translation of> > > nadi leaves> > > > > > > > Sunday, December 14, 2008, 5:20 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends,> > > > We should be happy that Mr. velmurugan is> doing some> > > research in> > > this field. In fact I suggested this to our Forum> > > coordinators that> > > this is very necessary to throw light on why> certain things> > > happen> > > without our intention or efforts. I will give a> specific> > > example.> > > There was an article on Mugabe, President of> Zimbabwe in> > > Los Angeles> > > Times dt. 14th Dec. The writer narrates that> Mugabe> > > remained in power> > > for the past three decades inspite of killing> thousands of> > > his> > > opponents. How was it possible? We can understand> if the> > > country> > > progressed during the regime. That is not the> case here.> > > Zimbabwe is> > > still backward. The stock answer we get from even> learned> > > people is> > > that it is due to the good things he did in his> previous> > > birth. Can we> > > expect a person who commits horrible crimes in> this life to> > > be a saint> > > in his previous birth? This negates the karma> theory. It is> > > necessary> > > for a good Nadiastrologer to study this case and> > > > pubblicize the findings so that people can> know what> > > exactly> > > happens because of Karma. Right now people just> do not know> > > why things> > > happen. Some people presume it is because of> their efforts.> > > Bush made> > > a mess of the entire system and thousands of> people are on> > > the streets> > > because of that. Still Bush is going scotfree> whereas> > > honest person> > > like VP Singh had to leave within months. Why do> such> > > things happen> > > has to be explained on a rational basis and not> with stock> > > replies> > > like it is his fate. Can some Nadiastrologer> throw light on> > > this dark> > > subject?> > > > Pantulu> > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 14/12/08, Velmurugan.M> <mvel_sky (AT) (DOT) > > > co.in> wrote:> > > > > > > > Velmurugan.M <mvel_sky (AT) (DOT) > co.in>> > > > Re: Help with> translation of> > > nadi leaves> > > > > > > > Sunday, 14 December, 2008, 12:27 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Friend,> > > > > > > > I am Velmurugan from Chennai. I am insearch> of nadi> > > leaves for> > > research purpose. Can you pls send me the scanned> copy,> > > sothat it will> > > be helpful for me. > > > > > > > > I will also send you the nadi readers> address and> > > phone nos..> > > > > > > > Can you pls help me....> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards> > > > M.Velmurugan- -- On Sun, 14/12/08, Madhu> > > <madhu_kaz_nair@ .co.> > > in> wrote:> > > > > > > > Madhu <madhu_kaz_nair@ .co.> in>> > > > Help with> translation of> > > nadi leaves> > > > > > > > Sunday, 14 December, 2008, 6:12 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone:> > > > > > > > I got nadi readings online and they gave me> a scanned> > > copy of nadi> > > readings in tamil poetic format and then> translated that> > > into english> > > and sent through email.> > > > > > > > I'm not sure if the translation has> covered all> > > the aspects of my> > > readings so, i was wondering if anyone in this> forum is a> > > nadi reader> > > or knows about a nadi reader who would be willing> to> > > translate my> > > scanned nadi readings over email or phone for a> nominal> > > price.> > > > > > > > Thank you everyone for your patience and> time.> > > > -Madhu> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and> enjoy! Invite> > > them now.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and> enjoy! Invite> > > them now.> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------> > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted December 19, 2008 Report Share Posted December 19, 2008 Dear Jordan, According to naadi experts the leaves do not predict the future. That work is done by the department of astrology. Naadi is for true seekers of the truth who want to know the raison de'etre of their existence in this planet. Whatever is being thrashed out by the so-called naadi readers are nothing but purely commercialisation. Only a true seeker will be able to get his naadi from the right person (not by charlatans) who will then seek amends to be put in the right path of spirituality. But to be honest with you, the majority of us are only seeking to know when we will be graced with wealth, harmonious relationships etc. or to put it bluntly, we are all materialistic -minded. It should be the other way around. We should seek to be back in His abode which is supposed to be eternal. This is where the charlatans come into play. They cash in on our weakness and demand exorbitant fees for the readings as well as the so-called pariharams. As what you say, if only we put our minds then we should not seek out these charlatans. R. Mahendra Raj 19/12/2008 --- On Fri, 19/12/08, Jordan Koppole <jordan.co.in wrote: Jordan Koppole <jordan.co.inRe: Re: Existence of Karma Cc: "pampavasan gopalakrishnan nair" <dr_pampa_nairFriday, 19 December, 2008, 7:13 PM Guys, Just a question, ask your selves. Why people are dying on the correctness of the past that Nadi tells and NOT on the failures of its predicition. Can you please think of that. Open up guys. Use your minds.. Don't get blinded by the corectness of past. Wake up. Regards Jordan - pampavasan nair Cc: pampavasan gopalakrishnan nair Friday, December 19, 2008 2:12 PM Re: Re: Existence of Karma Dear all, Why is Sathya Sai Baba coming into picture in Nadi groups.And why do you guys call him sathya -he is a complete fraud man.Please wake up my dear friends.He cheats his followers by doing simple stuffs that people call miracle (I'm also a Magician and do many such stuffs (even more stuffs than sai baba)but I do this for entertaining people.I dont claim that I have supernatural powers as like that fraud self -styled godman-Sai Baba).If you guys want to know how to make ash /materials ,I can reveal the secret.But ,please dont bring Sai baba in Nadi groups at all.He is a very ordinary man like us.But one thing ,I would like to tell all is NADI is very superior and mind boggling.Everything that has been mentioned in my leaf has happened in my as well as my families leaves in the last 5 years.Hope that this nadigroup remains dedicated to nadi itself.RegardsDr Pampa--- On Wed, 12/17/08, Aaron Bandy <aaron.bandy@ > wrote: Aaron Bandy <aaron.bandy@ >Re: Re: Existence of KarmaWednesday, December 17, 2008, 7:23 PM An interesting aside is that i\I have heard that Swamy Vivekananda has taken rebirth as a teenage boy now living in Sri Lanka. He has visited Prashanti Nilayam where he met Sathya Sai Baba who told him about his former life. He is supposed to take over for Sai Baba when he passes on in 2022 and will be reborn again in 8 years as Prema Sai Baba and then eventually return to Prashanti. Aaron sybsat <sybsat >Wednesday, December 17, 2008 6:02:47 AMRe: Re: Existence of Karma Hello Hari,Hope this might be of some help. If you read about Real Nature of Man, Maya related chapters, Absolute and Manifestation, God in Everything and Realisation in 2nd volume of Swami vivekananda' s complete works under the chapter Jnana Yoga. This might give you a different perspective as well.Regards,Sathish--- On Wed, 17/12/08, harinomore <harinomore > wrote:> harinomore <harinomore >> Re: Existence of Karma> > Wednesday, 17 December, 2008, 9:13 PM> Hi Srinivas,> > Than you for your opinions, > > I am not declining the theory of karma. But some people> just see> things from a different point of view> > The lord would like me to live life as an handicap > > The lord would like me to live life as a wealthy men > > The lord would like me to die early in my life.> > If you see it from this point of view that everything> happens because> of the lord's desire and not out of karma.> > A year back i got an opportunity to look through a naadi> reading and> the very naadi which gave predictions based on the karma> theory,also> clearly stated that everything happens as per the will of> the lord.> Why this contradiction. We will never know...> > With regards > Hari> > > > > > > > > > , Srinivas Kasam> <kasam_sri@. ..>> wrote:> >> > > > Hari,> > > > Thanks for the reply. I beg to differ on the opinion> that "There is> no such thing as Karma" -- Consider a simple example> of a born> handicapped (like born blind, born deaf, born dumb, born> poor) -- Does> not it tell you that it's purely based on the> accumulated Karma why> some people are born handicapped or born underprivileged.> Same rule> applies to all of us who have some or the other> problem...we suffer> because of previous birth's Karma -- Some people call> it as "Heavenly> Revenge".> > And as you know it very well, the Nadi Astrology is> purely based on> Karmic theory and I strongly believe in that.> > > > I fully agree with you, no matter what the Vedas or> Gita says, my> personal opinion is the same too "Death itself is> Heaven", leave alone> the next incarnation and what happens in next birth....but> "Death is> the happiest thing". -- Having said this, I feel there> is a cath to> this notion of "Death is better" -- Until> recently I used to give a> shit to the word "Longevity". I used to think> that, what will we do by> living longer...instead of facing the deadly challenges of> this> materialistic world...sooner we call it a quit the more> better it> is....but only recently (since last 2 years) I started> thinking> differently and the word "Longevity" makes more> sense to me now> ....because I have 4 years old daughter and I strongly> believe> that....I am the master of her destiny..... I am confident> of shaping> her future....I am confident of ensuring a happy life for> my> daughter.... I pray God everyday for this to give me this> ability. > > > > -- Hence now I think that, the more longer I live, the> better I can> serve to my daughter helping her lead a happy life.> > > > Srini> > > > > > --- On Tue, 12/16/08, harinomore> <harinomore@ ...> wrote:> > > > > harinomore <harinomore@ ...>> > > Re: Help with> translation of nadi leaves> > > > > > Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 2:36 PM> > > Hi Srinivas,> > > > > > Many people will said that Karma is the answer to> all your> > > questions.But in my opinion, there is no such> thing as> > > karma. We are> > > all like puppets under the control of our master> know as> > > "God" and he> > > moves us as he please.> > > > > > We humans assume the death is bad and living or> birth is> > > good.But the> > > lord sees no such partiality to him everything is> the same.> > > > > > > > > In fact if you read the Srimad Bhagavatam you> will find> > > that death is> > > actually a happier event compared to birth. While> death> > > liberates us> > > from the body and gives us a chance to go back to> > > godhead,Birth puts> > > us back on earth and traps us in a worldly life.> > > > > > With regards> > > Hari > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , Ramya> > > <ramyasundari@ > wrote:> > > >> > > > Hi Srinivas,> > > > > > > > I'm not expert but below are just my> views. Please> > > ignore if it> > > doesn't make sense for you. Thanks.> > > > > > > > To answer your first scenerio the only way> to nullify> > > the karma is> > > thru' spiritual awakening and not doing good> or bad. If> > > you do good,> > > you gain good karma and you'll get the result> of it and> > > if you do bad,> > > you gain bad karma in which case also you'll> see the> > > corresponding> > > result. > > > > > > > > To answer your second scenerio, God only> created the> > > souls, it is> > > humans who learnt to contaminate it. Terrorists> > > contaminated their> > > soul and are killing people which contaminates> their soul> > > even more.> > > When the people are being killed by terrorists> (for eg,> > > mumbai attack,> > > wars) to media or viewers it might be ignorant> people but> > > we never> > > know what is the status of their soul, what wrong> they did> > > during this> > > birth and during the last birth etc. I mean not> to say that> > > they> > > deserve it. I just wanted to say that it is> because of> > > their own karma> > > and is not God to be blamed, it is ourself to be> blamed for> > > whatever> > > we get. > > > > > > > > Also your question on 'another> aspect' is> > > answered from the above.> > > (I'm also a strong believer of God might be> in a> > > different form than> > > yours; reading the below don't think me as an> Atheist.> > > ) To add more> > > to it according to spiritual science and occult> science,> > > there is> > > nothing as God. God is mentioned as a place where> the soul> > > has no> > > dimenstions (including 4th and 5th dimenstion> Time and> > > Plane) and that> > > is why Siddhars were able to see the future from> that place> > > as they> > > can travel easily on all the dimensions when they> don't> > > have any. That> > > can be achieved only when your karma is> nullified. Even we> > > can become> > > a siddhar ; we all may want to but how many tried> for it.> > > All the gods> > > in all the religions might be the various forms> from that> > > place. > > > > > > > > Every human has a God inside which can be> seen only> > > thru' Spiritual> > > awakening; only if you awaken that you'll get> the> > > ability not to> > > commit sins. Everything is in you whichever you> want to> > > know; for> > > everything happening to you you should be blamed,> for> > > everything bad> > > happening in the world is because everyone has> contaminated> > > our own> > > souls contaminating the entire earth so why to> blame God.> > > Don't think> > > jus over your life period (duration) for the> happenings,> > > everything is> > > getting accumulated might 1000s or 2000s of years> we never> > > know; thats> > > why we're in Kali Yuga. > > > > > > > > I've tried to answer you to my best.> Sorry if> > > I've not. > > > > > > > > Thanks,> > > > Ramya.> > > > > > > > --- On Tue, 12/16/08, Srinivas Kasam> > > <kasam_sri@> wrote:> > > > Srinivas Kasam <kasam_sri@>> > > > Re: Help with> translation of> > > nadi leaves> > > > > > > > Tuesday, December 16, 2008, 4:08 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On a related topic and In view of the recent> terrorits> > > attack in> > > Mumbai which claimed about 200 lives, I wonder> that, how> > > many births a> > > terrorist would have to take to nullify/fulfill> kis Karma ?> > > > > > > > With little knowledge what I have, I think a> person> > > like terrorist> > > or people like Dawood who are responsible> for killing> > > several people,> > > I can't imagine a way of nullyfying their> karma...so> > > how would such> > > people be nullified of their karma ??> > > > > > > > (OR)> > > > > > > > Are these terrorits God' s weapons to> kill people> > > hence these> > > terrorists do NOT incurr any karma ?> > > > > > > > I am aware of a incident of a person who was> a Sage in> > > his previous> > > birth but unintentionally caused death to a> fellow sage> > > under some> > > circumstances. ...hence in this birth he is born> with> > > "Cerebral Palsy"> > > -- Now, think of a terrorist who kills several> > > people....how many> > > births and how much suffering he has to undergo> to fulfill> > > his karma ?> > > Will the world survive till such a terrorist> nullifies his> > > karma ? Or> > > such terrorist does NOT incurr any karma because> he is none> > > other than> > > God send weapon ?> > > > > > > > On another aspect...... Every spiritual> disclosure> > > says "God> > > protects us always" -- I really wonder what> is God> > > doing when> > > terrorists attack and claim innocent lives ?> > > > > > > > May be there are things that God himself> can't> > > control or God> > > himself would not have imagined when he created> the Cosmos.> > > Of late,> > > an interesting thing striked my mind that....Why> did God> > > create Cosmos> > > ? What is the purpose of this entire world and> mankind ? I> > > know> > > Salvation is the final stage....SO WHAT ??? What> is going> > > to happen> > > with Salvation ? Who asked God to create me and> why I am> > > responsible> > > for the Karmas ? If God had not created me I> would NOT have> > > incurred> > > any karma....and today I or most of the mankind> will not be> > > in the> > > situation of suffering due to karmas. Hence is> God the main> > > root cause> > > for all kinds of karmas ?> > > > > > > > I am sure every individual of the mankind in> their> > > first birth> > > commtis sins and incurr karma and gradually put> in efforts> > > to attain> > > salvation... ..My question is why did God create> mankind in> > > the very> > > first place which is the root cause of all karma> & > > > sufferings.> > > > As they say, "It is human to Err"> so as> > > "It's human to commit sins"> > > -- If there was no element called> "Human" there> > > would not be any thing> > > like karma & suffering. -- Hence I wonder why> did God> > > create humans> > > and this entire Cosmos ? I think God created> humans but did> > > not give> > > enough ability not to commit errors/sins > > > > > > > > -- - What do you all say ?> > > > > > > > NOTE: Please note that, the purpose of> writing the> > > above questions> > > is only to try to understand things better. I am> looking> > > for expert> > > comments in this subject matter, please do not> misinterpret> > > me. I> > > strongly believe in God.> > > > > > > > -- Srini> > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 12/14/08, vwsu kota> <pantulu4 (AT) (DOT) > > > co.in> wrote:> > > > > > > > vwsu kota <pantulu4 (AT) (DOT) > co.in>> > > > Re: Help with> translation of> > > nadi leaves> > > > > > > > Sunday, December 14, 2008, 5:20 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear friends,> > > > We should be happy that Mr. velmurugan is> doing some> > > research in> > > this field. In fact I suggested this to our Forum> > > coordinators that> > > this is very necessary to throw light on why> certain things> > > happen> > > without our intention or efforts. I will give a> specific> > > example.> > > There was an article on Mugabe, President of> Zimbabwe in> > > Los Angeles> > > Times dt. 14th Dec. The writer narrates that> Mugabe> > > remained in power> > > for the past three decades inspite of killing> thousands of> > > his> > > opponents. How was it possible? We can understand> if the> > > country> > > progressed during the regime. That is not the> case here.> > > Zimbabwe is> > > still backward. The stock answer we get from even> learned> > > people is> > > that it is due to the good things he did in his> previous> > > birth. Can we> > > expect a person who commits horrible crimes in> this life to> > > be a saint> > > in his previous birth? This negates the karma> theory. It is> > > necessary> > > for a good Nadiastrologer to study this case and> > > > pubblicize the findings so that people can> know what> > > exactly> > > happens because of Karma. Right now people just> do not know> > > why things> > > happen. Some people presume it is because of> their efforts.> > > Bush made> > > a mess of the entire system and thousands of> people are on> > > the streets> > > because of that. Still Bush is going scotfree> whereas> > > honest person> > > like VP Singh had to leave within months. Why do> such> > > things happen> > > has to be explained on a rational basis and not> with stock> > > replies> > > like it is his fate. Can some Nadiastrologer> throw light on> > > this dark> > > subject?> > > > Pantulu> > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 14/12/08, Velmurugan.M> <mvel_sky (AT) (DOT) > > > co.in> wrote:> > > > > > > > Velmurugan.M <mvel_sky (AT) (DOT) > co.in>> > > > Re: Help with> translation of> > > nadi leaves> > > > > > > > Sunday, 14 December, 2008, 12:27 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Friend,> > > > > > > > I am Velmurugan from Chennai. I am insearch> of nadi> > > leaves for> > > research purpose. Can you pls send me the scanned> copy,> > > sothat it will> > > be helpful for me. > > > > > > > > I will also send you the nadi readers> address and> > > phone nos..> > > > > > > > Can you pls help me....> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regards> > > > M.Velmurugan- -- On Sun, 14/12/08, Madhu> > > <madhu_kaz_nair@ .co.> > > in> wrote:> > > > > > > > Madhu <madhu_kaz_nair@ .co.> in>> > > > Help with> translation of> > > nadi leaves> > > > > > > > Sunday, 14 December, 2008, 6:12 AM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Everyone:> > > > > > > > I got nadi readings online and they gave me> a scanned> > > copy of nadi> > > readings in tamil poetic format and then> translated that> > > into english> > > and sent through email.> > > > > > > > I'm not sure if the translation has> covered all> > > the aspects of my> > > readings so, i was wondering if anyone in this> forum is a> > > nadi reader> > > or knows about a nadi reader who would be willing> to> > > translate my> > > scanned nadi readings over email or phone for a> nominal> > > price.> > > > > > > > Thank you everyone for your patience and> time.> > > > -Madhu> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and> enjoy! Invite> > > them now.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and> enjoy! Invite> > > them now.> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- ------> > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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