Sam & Mu: Discourses Upon Hot Topics

January 6, 2005

Jan 06, 2005 1.29PM Thu

The Following is taken from the online astrological listserv I

founded, called the Pan Astrological Forum. It's a clearinghouse of

astrological ideas, views and theories from all over the world. The

exhcange you're about to read is an intense back-and-forth between

myself and a trusted colleauge and friend Sam; with his Scorpionic

stinger and my Sagittarian archery, the level of engagement on some

of the most heated topics of the day - namely, Gay Marriage and Race -

is at its highest.

I send this dialogue out to the interested because like I Sam, I

think this is something we all need to be more concerned about - and,

because I just like to make people's brains hurt, LOL. In my humble

opinion, I honestly do not recall ever seeing such a heated, yet

informed, discussion/debate on such issues EVER in an astrology

forum, online or anywhere else.

But I must " warn " you: the following dialogue may indeed prove a bit

too strong for some of the readers; this is a heavily sociopolitical

discourse, and as such, it's as much about taking sides as it is

about investigation and learning; some of you will not be surprised

at all by my own particular positions on some of the issues. But I

think I and my colleague, if nothing else, deserves much credit for

tackling head-on, such weighty topics.

Perhaps there's hope for us Astrologers afterall...

SAM: *Decloak*

Mu'Min, I'm laughing at the superior intellect.

Just kidding. Star Trek II fans will appreciate the little joke.

First,

before I send a volley of photon of torpedoes to your Defiant butt,

I'd like

to say that I do really appreciate the sharpness of your ability as an

astrologer and thinker. You are a blessing, even though I have to

spend

late nights rebutting, refuting and rethinking what we discuss. Thank

you,

and may Allah continue to bless you with your passion and love for

astrology

and life. We have our differences; but I'm glad we can agree to

disagree

when we disagree. There's a lot more we share.

MU: Yea, I've been wanting to move foward on the conference but, as

usual, Life happens, and now I'm thinking that it might have to go

down

in 06. Which works out better, because that gives more time to get

things together and so on. Don't worry Sam, I ain't forgot about ya.

Or

the Main Event, LOL.

SAM: This is bad news. How can I help you to have it happen this

year? If

there is nothing, then let's make a date to get together in person (in

Philly or NYC) to brainstorm and just kick it as we haven't ever met

in

person. Holla back on the cellie or off-list.

MU: Which would be...what? I haven't heard anyone want out of an

indepth

discussion on the astrology of house pets, Rin-Tin-Tin and Felix the

Cat. C'mon Sam, you know how we do here - NO ONE - or NOTHING - is

safe.

SAM: I guess talking about racism while LWB (Living While Black)

almost

seems too redundant. I don't mind talking nitty-gritty stuff, like

your

Pluto theories and the astrology behind things; but I get tired of

talking

about racism. It's a longer personal story than needs to be discussed

here,

but I guess the moving on is embedded in this e-mail. Perhaps

something

will come to light in the by-and-by as this e-mail develops.

MU: Well, there's where we would have serious disagreement, Sam.

Again,

I draw on my extensive face-to-face conversations with many Black

South

Africans who live in the townships - and others who have no home at

all

- and I come away with a significantly different impression of the

" progress " SAFR has made in the areas that really count on the ground.

C'mon, do you think those who pushed for the Gay Marriage Law in SAFR

were those Black folks? It would not surprise me in the least if the

main movers and shakers of that move - as well as the bulk of the body

of the movement itself - were White. As it is here in the USA. SAFR

has

a distinct tendency to drift off into dreamland and not deal with the

hardcore issues (look how long it denied it had a SERIOUS issue with

HIV/AIDS for example) of Racism against the Black Majority by the

White

Minority, which continues in large measure today, not necessarily at

the

point of a gun, but through other, " soft " means, much like what we

face

here in the USA. If the USA's counterpart is any indication, the Gay

Movement in SAFR aren't likely to stick its neck out on the line to

see

to it that the Black masses down there get their fair share - but,

like

ours here, will probably piggyback on the ANC movement to press their

own case. I've heard a few things along these lines from my Black

contacts down there already, so it doesn't surprise me.

SAM: Well, before I address this dead-on, I'd like to say something

about

racism. I think racism is one symptom of the overall intention not to

respect human dignity and diversity (IDIC--Infinite Diversity in

Infinite

Combinations). Racism, like other isms/schisms, is a fabricated

concept

that's buttressed by real-life institutions and practices.

This is crucial. Race and its hegemonic carrier, racism, is made up.

There

are many sources for this postulation, from Howard Winant's Racial

Formation

in the United States to V.Y. Mudimbe's Invention of Africa. This

brings me

to an essential astrological point that I've made at this forum

before. You

are too focused on Pluto, without realizing that Pluto is

Neptune's " bitch, "

to use a street colloquialism. Pluto (Power) falls sometimes in the

orbit

of Illusion (Neptune), thus working in tandem. Racism reflects the

intention to alienate a group of people (also Neptunian) while

establishing

a power dynamic to maintain this alienation (Pluto). This dynamic is

not

just intrinsic to race or racism. It has happened along the lines of

gender, sexuality, class, religion, caste, skin color, etc. So, now

to go

dead-on, I would suspect that a great number of people who have

supported

gay marriage would be white, both here and in South Africa. However,

this

fact doesn't dismiss the obligation that I feel that Black people,

whether

in this country or SAFR, should have toward challenging any set of

structures or people who don't respect human dignity and diversity. We

(Black people) have suffered greatly, around the globe. This suffering

(Neptune) should compel us to be sensitive to all issues of injustice

and

ism/schisms that affect humanity. It is probably true that other

groups may

not feel this way, though I have observed similar sentiments from

Jews.

(This is why many Jewish organizations in this country are sensitive

to all

forms of racism as they realize what affects one group could affect

them

down the pike.)

However, real LEADERSHIP comes not by a quid pro quo mentality, but a

courage to stand up for those who may never be able or willing to

stand up

for you. If Black people, as you seem to center your focus, are only

concerned with what happens to us, then we have only defined humanity

in

terms of us. This is no better than the systems that have been in

place to

oppress us. We have to create a new way. We have to be bold in our

sensitivity and courage and be willing to risk even exploitation. If

we

don't, then we become content only to look out for our interests, as

Afrocentricty calls for us to do. This is myopic. It's myopic because

it

asks us to center on the very conception of ourselves as humans that

we

didn't create. There was no Africa before 1400. Of course, there were

ethnic groups with their own histories of empires and provinces. The

same

was true of Europe. There was no Europe. However, some people in what

we

now Europe had the bright idea to season their food (I'm not kidding

about

this, though I recognize it's a slightly brutal historical reduction)

and

set out to find new trade routes. In its press and pressure to

distance

itself from its Dark Ages and its colonized Moorish past, Europe was

created. (Fashionably named after the story of Zeus abducting Europa

as a

bull and venturing toward the setting Sun--the West.) Orientalism by

Edward

Said documents these thoughts as well. Anyway, my point is beyond the

issue

of Gay Marriage (I'll address this soon enough). If there is a human

rights

issue, don't you think Black people (who you maintain have suffered

the most

(and I won't get into this issue with you as it sounds like a pissing

contest through a catheter to pass a kidney stone)) should support

this

issue? Are we only concerned when the violations concern us? Now, I

know

you don't consider Gay Marriage (or the restriction thereof) as a

violation

(and we're going to get to that), but please recognize that racism is

symptomatic of a larger issue. It's immature to think that racism

should

have salient importance over other forms of Plutonian hegemony as

hegemony

is hegemony. Repression is repression. Hate is hate. I, like you,

believe

that Black people have suffered a great deal; however, I think this

suffering doesn't warrant us a medal for meritorious suffering, but a

call

to be vigilant in fighting for the dignity and respect for every

living

thing on this planet. How come there aren't more Black people at the

forefront of enviromental struggles? You're going to tell me racism?

That

could be somewhat true, but if Black people wanted to create more and

more

institutions that covered a wider range of issues, who's going to

stop them?

Martin Luther King, Jr. and Malcolm X, both at 39 (I have a

metaphysical

theory about this, but another time), were at the brink of making the

struggle of Blacks here in this country a universal issue that

encompassed

class and went way beyond nationalism. It was lethal, because it

heralded

the first time that a group of people, in this country, tried to make

the

issue of U.S. racism an international issue and fundamental question

of

human dignity. Oh, they had to go. So they did, and people lost focus.

(Then disco descended upon us and there was darkness in the land for

many

moons, until...Jesse Jackson? Hmm...I have to keep working with this

story.) I think you operate on that same level of lost focus. True

multi-culturalism has to be matched by a true commitment to

compassion that

encompasses the span of human dignity--and it is vast. It both

encompasses

and spans beyond our notions of the Zodiac, race, gender, class, sex,

nation, caste, ethnicity, weight, height, skin tone, shoe sizes, and

HMO

plans. If we can't operate at that level of complexity, then we're

lost.

So bravo (on some level) for trying to push other astrologers to look

beyond

the existential crisis caused by the vacuum of lost faith in a

fragmented

and shrinking middle class called the

New Age movement; but don't get stuck on the " Race " button. There's

far

more to struggle for than just that. This is classic " Leo "

vs. " Aquarius. "

As the world strives for integration (hmmm..., i.e. Aquarius), we

have to be

vigilant that human dignity (which entails creativity and the human

heart)

is not compromised and diminished, i.e. Leo.

Likewise, Gay Marriage is only the tip of the iceberg, my friend. The

sacred nature of marriage is destined to be questioned now, and it

won't

just be along the lines of sexuality. This is largely informed

astrologically by the quincunx theory of Urans that I've mentioned

before.

The emerging Uranus in Pisces is quincunxing (if there is such a

word) the

natal Uranus in Libra of 35 years ago. This activates/initiates that

generation and galvanizes their seed issue, which is to deal with

human

relationships and sharing (Libra). This is why, at the trine phase of

Uranus in late Aquarius, sharing files via the web became such an

issue. It

wasn't " sanctioned. " So now the issue is marriage. Welp, people are

making

all kinds of arrangements outside of traditional marriage. You could

call

it shacking up, but people are having ribbon-fasting ceremonies,

public

commitment ceremonies, jumping the broom ceremonies without

traditional

legal or religious authority. Likewise, don't think that someone won't

challenge the exclusivity of domestic partnership as it exists who

ISN'T

GAY. Benefits without really having to tie the knot? Sure why not.

And

along slightly different lines, if we as a society can establish

domestic

partnerships that allow gay partners to have all the rights and

priviliges

of straight marriages, why, in fact, can't they marry? Ah, this

brings me

to how you addressed the issue.

MU: Moving on to my other point, History teaches us that the State and

Religion are more intertwined than we here in America would like to

admit, and that's even true for things here.

SAM: So this makes it right?

MU: The two have always to lesser or greater degrees regulated Human

Behavior, distinguished

between good and bad, acceptable and unacceptable conduct and actions.

When it comes to matters of the Family (of which Marriage is perhaps

the

most important part) the State and Religion's role cannot be

overemphasized.

SAM: Why not? Sounds like it's already overemphasized.

MU: And this is how it should be, for without it, we would

have utter chaos, an anything goes environment where things run

rampant.

SAM: There was little regulation of marriage for most of the last

millenium,

especially in the West. Marriage, as an official and sanctioning

practice,

wasn't a huge sacrament for the church until the last three

centuries. In

fact, to satisfy your Afrocentric sensibilities, remember that most

slave

marriages weren't recognized by any overarching authority. Were they

any

less valid? To be sure, it was nothing for a slavemaster to tear a

family

apart. But it has always been the intention of two people and their

families that's made a marriage binding, not the State or religion.

Marriage has mostly been an issue of economics, just think dowries

and the

political machinations and consolidations of kings and queens.

However,

it's always been an intimate issue, as it concerns families and the

individuals involved. Why this huge admiration for the State and

Religion

in the mix?

MU: Our Astrology reflects and indeed, bears witness to this fact in

the

symbolisms of Jupiter and Saturn; together, they represent " Law and

Order " ; the Spirit of the Law and the Letter of the Law; Religious and

Scholarly Theory and Real World Application; our sense of Morality,

Right and Wrong, are expressed through these symbols. In Vedic

Astrology, Venus represents sex and relationships but it is Jupiter

who

represents " going to the chapel to get married " . And in both Eastern

and

Western Astrology, Saturn is recognized as being in its strongest Sign

placement in the Sign of Libra (exaltation). As anyone who has been

married knows, it is a far cry different from merely " kicking it " with

someone. Marriage is (or at least was, and should be) a solemn

decision

because it can and often does literally make or break someone,

depending

on who the person chooses as a marital choice. Saturn and Jupiter

alike

represent Tradition, those ideas, concepts and practices that have

stood

the test of time.

And that brings us to the question of Gay Marriage, which is in my

view

distinctly different from Gay/Lesbian/Bi-Sexual *practices*.

SAM: Huh? Why all the lofty crap about commitment to only denigrate

gay

love as " practices " ? How are gay practices any different inherently

from

heterosexual practices? Why is fidelity between two people

conditioned by

the gender of who they love? Yes, there is a lot of ink spilled on gay

promiscuity, but heterosexual promiscuity, even within the sacred

framework

of marriage, is LEGION! So I'm not getting the clear distinction

here,

other than just a bias. And by the way, traditions change. Tradition

was

that a woman had to obey her husband. Well, by the divorce rates and

the

things I've seen, women aren't following that tradition anymore. In

fact,

at the host of weddings I've attended in my adult life, I haven't

heard the

words " obey " for a husband or a wife. Tradition, in some parts,

dictates

that a man can stone his wife for adultery; but he'll get a slap on

the

wrist or he can make it all well and just marry the woman he was

sleeping

with. So, yes, Jupiter upholds Spirit and Saturn upholds the letter

of the

law, but where's it written that they do so by gender? Where's it

written

that a tradition by being a tradition

is right?

MU:I don't claim scholarly authority on this, but as I understand it,

Gay

sexual

practices have existed in various forms around the world and

throughout

History. However, the closest thing we have to State and/or Religously

sanctioned - or even recognized - codified behavior, norms and the

like

hail from the Greco-Roman Era, where we find writings of Aristotle on

the topic and other such writs from the isle of Lesbos. We know how

their world ended, right?

SAM: How about the eunuchs of India, who were essentially

transvestites and

nearly trans-sexuals, who functioned as willing concubine guards and

even

concubines for shahs and kings? Okay, there are probably few

instances of

condoned marriages in most parts of the world, but so what? Human

rights,

regardless of nationality, ethnicity or gender, is kinda new, too. You

weren't recognized as having certain inalienable rights, if you were

a (fill

in the blank here) for most of human history. So this is right? And

by the

way, how did the Greco-Roman era end any worse than how any other era?

Do you honestly think that homosexuality paved the road for Greco-

Roman's

destruction? Then Sparta should have never risen to power as there

were

more licensed intimate bonding between men than there were between

men and

women. Really faulty logic here, Mu. Must have phoned in your thoughts

here.

MU: The purpose of Marriage is to regulate Human sexual behavior, to

further

the Human species in terms of reproduction, to model acceptable modes

of

conduct and behavior to the young and to stabilize Society.

SAM: Is this a quote from God? Who says? If that's true, then we

should

definitely marry our youth younger to regulate their sexual behavior.

That's proven to work. (Not!) And we should make sure all the married

couples who don't have children should get some as they're not

fulfilling

the purpose of marriage. (Not!) And since when do most het couples

model

acceptable modes of conduct and behavior to the young and stabilize

society?

When was this? I've missed it. Was it a show on television?

MU: What so many people in our " PC " world don't want to admit is

the fact

that MOMS AND

DADS are important, gender roles are important, and no, everything

ain't

cool. There are standards in this world, Sam, I know you know that,

and

so does everyone else reading this. Anything that explains everything,

in the end, explains nothing.

SAM: I know standards are important, but you still haven't convinced

me as

to the gender stamp required on these standards. (And whose

standards, by

the way?) 50% of the people in this great nation have moms and dads

who are

not together. It's also very important to realize that most of human

history has been people growing up with some parent absent, either by

the

demands of work or gender roles. I think around the world, men are

just

more likely to be out of the house. To be sure, we

have come to overemphasize moms and dad in order to go nuclear. In

many

cultures, grandparents and other extended family were as important,

if not

at certain times, more important. Read Malidoma Patrice Some's Of

Water and

Spirit as he documents how his African ethnic group had children live

with

their grandparents for a number of years. So, yes, gender roles are

important, but who plays them isn't. A man can play the gender role

of a

woman, and vice-versa. There are some women in het relationships who

wear

more of the pants of the family than the men. Is there something

fundamentally wrong with this? I don't think so. So I think there can

be

two men raising a child and one can be butch and the other femme. The

child

will come to realize how these gender roles function and make his or

her own

decisions. Likewise, there's bound to be more than just two adults in

a

child's life, so there are other ways for a child to learn gender

roles and

" standards. "

MU: The Outer Planets - Uranus, Neptune and Pluto - represent those

things

that we as Human Beings have never seen before, never contemplated,

never considered; as you know, each were discovered by Human eyes at

the

same time that a major event or series of events was taking place down

here on Earth, and the two had something in common. To me, the Outers

are inherently Socio-Political, because they have a major impact on

the

social and political climates of a given people at a given time, due

to

the length of time each planet stays in a Sign. They also represent

those " shocks to the system " that the status quo needs from time to

time

in order to keep things in society fresh and relevant (the Saturn-

Uranus

pairing - the clash between Liberalism and Conservatism - immediately

comes to mind). But they also can symbolize rash moves towards

anything

new, different, " flashy " that often bring unintended consequences.

SAM: Perhaps...

MU: A very good example of this is a daily televised program called

" Maury " ,

named for its host, Maury Povich. The show, a daytime talk-show in the

tradition of a Ricki Lake etc, almost exclusively deals with one

singular theme - " Who's My Baby's Daddy? " . Teenage girls to young

adult

women are brought on the show, usually with at least one, and as many

as

4 or 5 children (often by different fathers) with the hope that they

will be able to determine, with the help of DNA testing, who is the

father of their kid(s). The men are brought on, an argument ensues

between he and the mother, and then the test results are read.

Sometimes

the man is indeed the father, and sometimes he is not; one case in

particular, a Hispanic woman named Marisol, had 4 kids with different

fathers and tested TEN MEN WITHOUT FINDING A FATHER FOR ANY OF HER

KIDS!!! As far as I know, she still doesn't know who's her Babies

Daddies are.

SAM: I'm sorry. I lost the point here. Bastards have been with us a

long

time. My dad was a bastard, and some people might say not just in

heritage.

(I'm not one of them.) Hell, Jesus was called a bastard. So what's the

point here? I don't really agree that bastardom has reached any more

of a

pandemic range than what's existed in other times of history.

MU: This, along with the question of Gay Marriage, shows us what can

happen

when we factor in Unintended Consequences, Sam.

SAM: How do you lump in gay marriage with bastardom? If two lesbians

could

marry and have a baby, naturally with a man or in vitro, would the

child be

a bastard? That's trickier than it sounds.

MU: Marisol's ability to have those kids in the manner she did is a

direct

result of the changed

cultural, social, legal and even technological landscape begun back in

the 1960s.

SAM: No, bastards have been with us a long time.

MU: in fact, from an astrological standpoint, we can specify the

period and what it would portend for Times to Come. The Uranus-Pluto

Conjunction of Oct 9 1965, at 3.17pm EDT in Washington, DC (Plac 1 Aqr

13) fell in the 8th House at partile, at 17 Virgo. The 8th House,

again

as you well know, represents our Collective Values as a Society; the

Sign Virgo represents " proper conduct " , a sense of right from wrong

and

a degree of discretion that even you would have to admit is not so

common nowadays, seeing as how you live in NYC and all. This

conjunction

opposed Saturn which was in the 2nd House at the time - again

highlighting the clash of values, conservatism vs. liberalism and so

on.

And with the conjunction being only a degree or so away from exact

sextile to Neptune in Scorpio, itself falling in the 9th House, again

we

see the image of standards " slipping " . No doubt, this conjunction saw

with it the Civil Rights, Women's and Anti-War Movements, but it also

saw The Pill (which made recreational sex with little or no

consequences

possible, for both sexes but especially Women), Roe v. Wade (really

Abortion on Demand), " Men's Liberation " (doing away with such social

pressures as the " shotgun wedding " a clear consequence of sexual

involvement with a female and getting her pregnant), " No-Fault

Divorce "

(a major erosion of what Marriage is all about - Saturn again) and

yes,

the Gay/Lesbian lifestyle, which I distinguish from practices in the

bedroom, but rather, a socially defined set of values, beliefs and

norms, with an eye toward State and/or Church sanction. When I look at

" Maury " I'm constantly reminded of the unintended consequences of the

rash moves made back in the 60s and 70s in the name of progress.

Freedom

run rampant, ain't free, Sam - somebody's gotta pay, and all of us

are -

big time.

SAM: What may be true is that the disintegration of the traditional

family

structure, including the extended family, especially in our

communities, may

have been cemented in the 60s. However, the sextile to Neptune, which

you

only

briefly mention, with the Uranus-Pluto conjunction could

have been a response to the delusion and illusion heaped upon mainly

women

in the 40s and 50s about having a domestic life. It just didn't pan

out for

women in their favor. The sexual revolution liberated women, not just

gays, in ways that we are only beginning to fathom. Of course, it's

been a

profound re-adjustment, but what's the alternative? To return to our

heads

in the sands of history as if it didn't happen. Yes, it's brought some

challenges, but the alternatives were far worse. Abortion? How many

women

lost their lives and freedom having children they didn't want or

couldn't

have? How many women lost their lives trying not to have children they

didn't want or couldn't afford, and many of them married. (My mother

lost

her mother at the hands of a botched illegal abortion, so I saw the

factual

results of " the hanger " in her life.) I support a woman's right to

choose,

because it's her body. Divorce? How many women lost everything when

their

husbands left them at their Uranus oppositions, to look for youth in

some

younger sprite? And let's talk about the other freedoms granted to

women,

Black and white, through the sexual revolution? Women could become

things

that they weren't allowed to be ever before: truck drivers, land

owners (in

some places), astronauts, etc. So, I'm sorry, I'm not seeing the

great and

grand ruin that the sexual revolution brought. I admit it's brought

some

challenges, but so did civil rights for Blacks. Black people, in

many, too

many communities are worse off after de-segregation than they were

before

it. So what, we should go back to segregation? And as for the gay

liberation...you wouldn't have any openly gay clients if it weren't

for

Stonewall. I take it as a fundamental right for a person to express

his or

her

sexuality. But I'll address your issues with this shortly.

MU: While I'm here, let me also say that, as an African American, I

can say

with 100% certainty that Black folks, in the main, do NOT appreciate

the

Gay/Lesbian Lobby hijacking the moral authority of the Civil Rights

history and narrative, and equating it with their own issues.

SAM: Yeah, they wouldn't have to hijack it if some Black folks would

recognize that we don't have a patent on " civil " rights as it's a

fundamental issue affecting all civil (and human) life. The moral

authority

of civil rights doesn't come from history; it comes from being human

and

fighting against those who would curtail human dignity and diversity.

MU: Correct me if I'm wrong, but save for Matthew Sheppard, not many

other

gay or

lesbian folk were lynched, burned and mutlilated, certainly not to the

degree that Black folks have for decades if not centuries.

SAM: Okay, I don't think we can actually document all the atrocities

committed against people who loved the same gender in history. But I

know

there have been great numbers of gay people who have been lynched,

burned

and mutilated in the last century alone, many of them by Hitler. (The

upside-down pink triangle was the gay counterpart of the yellow star

in Nazi

Germany.) As for the extent by comparison, well, I guess we all lose

to the

Jews over the last 3,000 years as they've been universally reviled

for most

of their known existence. Does that make our struggle any less valid?

Does

it make their struggles more so?

MU: Certainly there is no known gay or lesbian slavery record in the

USA.

As far as I

know, there was no " Hetero Only " signs on one side, and " Gay Only " on

the other. Or gays or lesbians being forced to sit on the back of the

bus. Or gays and lesbians having dogs and firehoses routinely put on

them while they tried to get something to eat or to take Number 1 or

2.

SAM: No, they haven't been even accorded as much dignity to even be

recognized by a name of reputable speech until this century. You're

right

there, but which do you think is worse? To suffer in silence with no

real

name for what you are or be hated at least by a name? It's really an

idiotic question, but I think it conveys my point.

MU: You know where I'm going with this, Sam - most Black folks (and

this

has

been confirmed again and again by many, many polls taken on the Black

Community in the USA) - present company included - simply do not see

the

Gay Issue as synonomous with the Black Civil Rights Issue.

SAM: Again, lack of foresight. The same can be said about

environmental

issues, especially as most enviormental disasters (man-made or not)

are

harder on the poor and usually darker peoples. But still we argue

about 40

acres and a mule as Native Americans weren't even promised that.

Ultimately, we have to come to see our freedom as equal in price to

the

freedom of every person on this planet.

MU: Even your comments about Gay Marriage being more divisive than

Interracial

Marriage (Black/White) simply ain't true, and history bears this out -

there was a time here in the USA when a Black man was literally taking

his own life into his hands if he dared date a White Woman, let alone

married her. While interracial marriages of all kinds are up from

where

they were say, 3 decades ago, you know which groups are still LEAST

likely to marry each other? Yup, you guessed it, White folks and Black

folks. I'll let you take a wild guess as to why that is.

SAM: I say it's more divisive because as laws have been overturned to

permit

interracial marriage, we still have bans in place not only on gay

marriage,

but even some gay practices in some states. There are more people

upset

about gay

marriage than interracial marriage, because there's a greater number

of

people (Black, White, Jew, Gentile) who are against it. The odds are

even

steeper for gay people in this country than they were for us.

MU: And let me say something else - I am not of the view that Gay and

Lesbian people do not have the right to exist - they certainly do. And

to exist without fear of job discrimination, or threat to their life

and/or property, etc. But that's different from asking me and the rest

of Society to change the definition of what Marriage is.

SAM: Uh, why?

MU: Most people - and this includes Black folks, Sam - are very

tolerant of

Gays and

Lesbians in these respects.

SAM: Funny, that's the kind of language people used to use with us.

MU: It's when they ask the rest of us to

sanction their behavior, put it on the same scale as that which has

been

established for years and years, that crosses the line. What you do in

the bedroom is your business - asking me to say their getting married,

is the same as my Mom and Dad's though, is something else.

SAM: Again, why? At this point, just admit, you're biased. There's no

real logic to it. You just don't like it. Why is your Mom and Dad's

union

any more holy than another's? Religion? Okay, let's stay clear of

religion

for a moment. In a non-sectarian state, which is what the United

States is

supposed to be, why is your Mom and Dad's union more legitimate than

another? Again, if the State preserves the sanctity of union between

human

adults, what does it matter what's their race (which we've come to see

logically as unimportant, despite the religious arguments advanced

last

century) or their

gender (which we still drip with words of scripture from our lips)?

MU: I have Gay and Lesbian clients, have studied the lifestyle

intensely to

understand their points of view (note I said " understand " NOT " agree

with " ) to able to assist them better. I made a decision long ago that

if

someone came to me for assistance, they would not be turned away no

matter what their lifestyle choice was (as long as no one was being

hurt

or killed, of course); that being said, if any of them broached this

same subject we're discussing now, they would hear the very same thing

I'm telling you and everyone in this forum. So far, none have brought

the question of Gay Marriage up.

SAM: Is there any mystery why? You're a homophobe. " They're fine

until... "

This is the same kind of statement that was made about us. If we

didn't

stay in our place, we were kindly reminded to get back into it. This

is the

same boundary you've created with gays. You are entitled to your

opinion,

and I respect that. I've been really sarcastic about it (to challenge

you

and I wouldn't be with almost anyone else but someone who I call a

friend.)

But your opinion isn't rooted in a logic or rigor of actual

historical fact.

It's an opinion and a prejudice. We all have them. I have some

homophobia,

despite all that I've said. I still wince a bit when I see two men

kiss,

especially Black men. But I can recognize what my wincing is from:

conditioned homophobia. My father was homophobic and he conditioned

homophobia in me. So every now and then I come across some rigid

gender

boundaries that have

been set up for me, and I stay committed to knocking them down. It

doesn't

mean, however, that I won't come across them. I can hear you

now. " Why do

you have to knock them down? " Because they're Neptunian. These

prejudices

aren't built on anything! Never have been. I don't believe in one

single

God who has dictated what's good for all people everywhere. So why

should I

put boundaries on a love that I will never know by gender?

MU: Anyway, I say all of that to further clarify my views and give

astrological background to them on this issue. Keep in mind, Sam, that

this past election here saw the question of Gay Marriage put before 11

states in the Union - and ALL ELEVEN SAID NO. Whew!

SAM: Yeah, say hello to progressed U.S. Sun in Pisces. Neptunian

fervor

with a pluto charge, based on nothing. By the way, each State's

supreme

court could overturn each initiative set by the ballot. Whew!

Popularity

doesn't it make right or wrong. It just makes it popular.

MU: Check out what I said about the Black South Africans I know above.

You know, I remember listening to a speech/Q & A Malcolm X gave; he

asked

a very interesting rhetorical question - if I take a knife, stab you

in

the back up to the hilt with it, then pull it out halfway, would you

say

that's " progress " while you're bleeding all over the place, the knife

still halfway in your back? Think about it. Probably not, right? That

was Malcolm's point about " incremental gains " . Political history has

shown us that often, it is not a matter of ability or resources to

make

change, but one of Will.

SAM: And Einstein said that no problem can be solved at the same

level at

which it was created. So how are things supposed to change, if not

incrementally and at a different level than their incipience? And

speaking

of Malcolm, don't forget that the Malcolm who may have said that may

not

have been the Malcolm who died in the Audubon ballroom 40 years ago

this

February. He was thinking about the long haul, and the long haul is

all

about incremental gains.

MU: Hmm...

SAM: Hmm...

MU: I'm no Biblical scholar, so I'm not even going to try to touch

what

Jesus (PBUH) said or didn't say, or was reputed to have said or done,

etc. But I will say this, Sam - murder has been with us, is with us

now,

will always be with us - does that mean we shouldn't try to stop it?

So

is theft, adultery, you name it. As long as there are Human Beings,

anywhere in the World, these crimes will continue. So we should just

throw up our hands and say the heck with it, right? I don't know about

you, but I consider Poverty - particularly the kind that is the direct

result of Racism - a High Crime. Gandhi would have agreed with me on

this score. So no, I don't expect to ever wipeout poverty, murder,

violence, rape, theft, adultery and the like in my lifetime - but to

do

otherwise in the face of it is to try for a major copout.

SAM: I agree. However, my point is that not all people who create

poverty,

at this point, are rich and white. In India, I saw a lot of poverty.

However, I've seen a lot more poverty of spirit among the so-called

poor

here than I ever saw in India.

MU: Personally, I think what Mugabe has done with regard to taking

back the

land that was gained at the point of a gun by hostile, bigoted

interlopers was the right thing to do - now, what he did with that

land

(and how he has run the country overall) after that is another

question.

For centuries, White folks (and Arabs) have run (and continue to run)

roughshod over the land and people of Africa, so yea, damn right they

have the right to get their land back by any means necessary.

SAM: No, what he did with that land is the fundamental question.

Again, he

offered short-term gains, for the sake of vengeance, with no long-term

vision of resources for development. It was a politically expedient

thing

to do. (The country is still in its fifth year of economic crisis,

with many

people starving. So he drove people out to do what?) You also

mentioned

Gandhi earlier. So you of all people will recognize that an eye for

an eye

leaves the whole world blind, by all means necessary and usually

available..

MU: By the way, Zimbabwe was born on Apr 18, 1980 12am EET in Harare;

Plac

2

Aqr 2, Campion. Note the chart ruling Uranus in the 10th (the People,

particularly the Black majority and Mugabe) square Mars in the 7th,

ruling the 4th (potential for armed conflict over lands, difficult

foreign relations over this, possible military intervention concerning

all of this from outside, divided country over the land/race issue).

Venus co-rules the 4th, at 13 Gemini. The move to take back the

farming

lands from the British settlers started around 2000, and at that time,

among other things, Tr Pluto (ruling the 10th - Mugabe - talk about a

" power move " !) opposed this Venus (and opposed the national Moon only

a

year or so earlier). The whole 4th-10th House thing has alot to do

with

the tensions between Mugabe (party in power 10th) and the Opposition

Parties (symbolized by the 4th). Very interesting situation. And

another

thing, note again how Pluto figures prominently into the picture in

Zimbabwe these days. Pluto=Themes associated with Race and/or Racism.

I'll flesh this out more down below.

SAM: You're astrology is impeccable. This analysis seems sound.

MU: I respect your beliefs. Of course, I take a different tack on the

issue: you see, for me, the rub comes in when you put the Black Eye of

Racism in the Game. You never know what the person could or couldn't

do

because you have that monkey on his/her back, you know what I mean?

Now,

sure, there are Black folks out there like you mentioned, a poor

mentality, lazy, whatever, and that impedes their progress along with

anything and everything else. But again, the rub comes in with the

Racism. I believe the vast majority of people, Sam, if given the right

circumstances, will do the right thing, because I believe that most

people want to do right, want to make a contribution, want to make a

difference.

SAM: I agree, though it's not just race that drives a poor mentality.

It

could be a person's sexuality, class, ability. What limits us (Pluto)

is as

vast as our illusions about ourselves and what society maintains as

real

(Saturn & Neptune).

MU:

On top of that, I think one of the major problems astrologers have

today

is their total lack of understanding Astrology's roots, and by that I

mean Mundane Astrology, the first form of Astrology known to man. So

many astrologers are so wrapped up in Natal Astrology that they miss

so

much vital information about the people they're working with due to

the

fact that they miss out on the background info where these people are

coming from. That in part has to do with my theory on Race and

Astrology. But it could just as easily be applied to anyone else, and

should.

SAM: I've not done a lot of mundane work, so you have me at an

advantage

here. But like I said, some part of the interpretation of a chart is

informed by your own sociological understanding, and I think yours is

too

limited by race. It's important to acknowledge race's importance, but

it's

equally important to acknowledge the magnitude of other issues, like

gender,

class, sex, physical ability, will, etc.

MU: Ah yes, Spike Lee's immortal " Do The Right Thing " . I remember that

scene, Buggin Out in Sal's Pizza, etc. Great movie.

I remember when that movie was first out in theaters and Spike was on

the Oprah Show to discuss it (Pluto was transiting Scorpio at the

time!). The audience was chock full of White folks who had some mean

words for Spike. One of them demanded to know why he ended the movie

the

way he did - you know, with the riot, Sal's Pizza Shop being burned

down, etc. Spike's response was awesome - he said that it was

incredibly

unfair to ask him to present the answer to Racism within two hours

onscreen. He said that he did the movie that way not only because it

was

much more representative of what was likely to happen, but that it

also

prompted everyone to TALK ABOUT IT, and that's part of what I'm doing

here and elsewhere. Astrology nowadays wants to fancy itself a

profession - well, I say, if they're really serious then at the very

least they wouldn't try to shut down people like myself who bring up

issues and questions like these. Because ALL the other professions

that

many astrologers try to be like - medicine, law, etc - deal with these

questions all the time.

Both here and in private email to me, you've suggested that I " get my

own place " ; the PAF and my website notwithstanding, the very fact that

you would mention such a thing to me, says that the Astrology

Community

really ain't all that flowery, is it, Sam? All of the pie-in-the-sky

talk about love and light only extends but so far; I guess that's

where

the evolution stops, right on the afro's edge. It's a powerful

statement, one whose meaning is certainly not lost on me. We really do

live in seperate worlds, I don't mean you and I , I mean us and them.

Hmm.

SAM: I hear you here, but we have to pull out all the guns, not just

one.

It used to stop for gays somewhere around the waist. Most of ancient

astrology wasn't terribly flattering, in delineation, or fair to

women.

Likewise, we are still wrestling with the fact that our profession

used to

be more for the rich than ever for the poor. So I think it's

important to

deal with these issues, but realize that the pie-in-the-sky isn't

just at

the exclusion of urban, Black frames of reference. Likewise, it's

important

to realize that we are disappointed by the shortcomings of our

teachers.

Thus, it is important to realize that we will have to venture where

our

teachers have not and learn what they've never taught. There's no use

upbraiding them with our calumny for their shortcomings. We must be

the

teachers we're waiting for. This is a central beef and point I have

with

you. We are the ones we've been waiting for, as Sweet Honey in the

Rock

says.

MU: One of my heroes is Muhammad Ali - and I mean the Ali of the 60s

and

early 70s. Ali had the awesome ability to talk a lot of trash - and

back

it up. All my life I've strived to be both, excellent in my skill sets

AND have a politic. There's room for both, Sam. Please don't mistake

absence of evidence as evidence of absence.

SAM: I will remember that.

MU: Anyway, the medical example you gave is not valid, because so many

doctors are indeed investigating the eastern methods and vice versa;

in

fact, according to the many interviews I've heard of such doctors, it

would be foolhardy NOT to take a more comprehensive approach in

treating

a patient. Deepak Chopra is a good example, but there are many doctors

in the field doing this. He's just one of the better known faces in

the

field that's all.

SAM: Let me be sure I'm understanding you. Are you saying that when

Deepak

Chopra treats an Indian, he applies or should apply more Eastern

medicine

and when he treats a Westerner, he should apply more Western

medicine? Be

sure you understand my example. Western astrologers who don't know

other

forms of " indigenous " astrology and issues related to other cultures

probably can't treat people of multi-cultural persuasions fully.

There are

some things that universal, but the full range of their compassion,

conditioned by culturally determined symbols will be limited.

Nonetheless,

there can be an education, but not all are in the position to learn.

You

and I are fast becoming prepared to be in the position to teach, not

just

preach. You'll turn more people away by preaching or instigating

rather

than teaching.

MU: And the extreme activism the Gay Lobby has done, in the form of

ACTUP

and other such groups, makes what I'm doing very, very tame. All I'm

doing is raising the questions in such a way that they cannot be

ignored

unless you just don't want to see it. And believe me, there are many

astrologers who don't want to see the real world.

As for the whole Uranus-Gay thing...well, I tend to agree with you, I

have seen it in action, but we have to keep in mind, people like Billy

Dee Williams and Liz Taylor have Venus conjunct Uranus, so go figure.

Still...I was going thru my database the other day and saw the

birthdate

of Ellen Degeneres (Jan 26 1958 Metaine, LA; no time known, Rodden):

Venus in Aqr Rx, exactly opposed Uranus in Leo, also Rx. The Gay

Bishop

Gene Robinson has a Mars-Uranus hard aspect in his chart (I don't have

the chart but I saw it up on Rodden's website). A Lesbian woman

astrologer I happen to know has an exact Venus-Uranus aspect in her

chart.

Hmm...

But I also have noticed something that Tyl pointed out in one of his

books regarding the potential astrological profile concerning Gays or

Lesbians: he said that the Signs Gemini and/or Pisces on the 5th, with

their rulers perhaps Rx, etc, *could* signal bi-sexuality or

homosexuality outright. A little while back I sent Zam some info on

this

subject. I'll paste in the charts and comments I sent him:

" Camille Paglia Apr 2 1947 6.57pm EST Endicott, NY; Plac Asc 18 Lib

31:

Venus, Mercury and Mars all in Pisces in the 5th, with Uranus, ruling

the 5th, in Gemini, and square Mercury

Anais Nin Feb 21 1903 8.16pm LMT Paris France; Plac Asc 3 Lib 19: Sun

conjunct Jupiter both in Pisces in the 5th, both trine Neptune;

Uranus,

ruling the 5th, opposes Neptune

Virginia Wolfe Jan 25 1882 12.15pm LMT London, England; Plac Asc 10

Gem

40: Uranus in the 5th, Mutual Reception with Mercury, ruler of the

5th;

Mercury sqaure Neptune, Uranus trine Neptune (and note that Wolfe has

Aquarian Sun; Venus is in Cap, closely trine Pluto)

Frida Kahlo Jul 6 1907 8.30am LMT Coyoacan, Mexico; Plac Asc 23 Leo

36:

Uranus conjunct Mars both in the 5th, with both opposed Sun and

Neptune

In all of these examples, with respect specifically to the 5th House,

the planets Mercury and/or Neptune is involved. Lara Pietersen, a

young

lady astrologer who is from South Africa and is a member of the PAF,

has

a tight Mercury-Neptune square, the only aspect in the entire chart,

with Mercury if I recall ruling the 5th (I don't have her chart on

me).

She is bi-sexual. "

SAM: Very interesting results. Of course, we can't pin down a 100%

indicator, but some of these points seem promising.

MU: I don't think I owe Lara an apology at all, especially in light of

the fact that I never said that Gay or Lesbian people don't have the

right to exist, etc. I was merely responding to a post she put up here

on her country sanctioning Gay Marriage Rights when the vast majority

of

its people live in abject poverty, not becase of their own ineptitude

but because of centuries of enforced segregation and exploitation -

and

despite having a few Black faces in high places, life for them in the

main has not changed in any fundamental, day to day way. So if that

hurts her or anyone else...tough. I like Lara alot, I think she's a

great person and an excellent astrologer - but I won't tone down my

views on something especially when I didn't bring it up in the first

place.

SAM: So here's the issue, which considering your feelings about gay

marriage, makes perfect sense why you didn't apologize. Lara was happy

about something that immediately concerns her. You " rained on her

parade "

to focus on something that made you unhappy (i.e., the state of the

union of

Black SAFR.) Why couldn't you have both acknowledged her happiness,

even if

it weren't your own, and expressed your dissatisifaction over what's

happening to Black SAFR? Likewise, why didn't you just say you didn't

care

what happened to gay people in SAFR as it concerns marriage? It would

have

been more honest. That's why I think you still owe her an apology.

Your

reaction was rude as it compared apples and oranges without dealing

with the

question on its own grounds. How would you feel if you were excited

about a

major event for Black Americans and someone in South Africa, even a

Black

SAFR, said, " So what? This doesn't improve our lives. " What are you

going

to say? The gains for us will translate into gains for them? This is

not

historically accurate. So I imagine you would still celebrate our good

fortune while expressing your solidarity for their struggle. But

because

you don't believe in gay marriage (the issue!) in Lara's case, you

didn't do

anything like that. So I would think you could've kep quiet about what

excited her. Or reminded her of the plight of Black SAFR while

simultaneously stating you're not a supporter of gay marriage. Or

take the

middle road and say you're happy for her. ( I can't imagine you

taking the

latter option.) The point is honesty matched with kindness would have

gone

a long way. Instead you treated the gay issue with silence, which is

usually how it's addressed by those who don't support the lifestyle

or parts

of the lifestyle. (And for the record: how convenient to call it a

lifestyle? Is being het a lifestyle? It's dominant, but lifestyle

implies

so much choice. I don't think there is much choice in how you feel

your

sexuality.)

MU: Again, go back to my comments on Mundane Astrology (as well as the

earlier discussion on Gay Marriage and its potential astrological

implications), and you'll see what I mean. I don't know if you've read

Nick Campion's Book of World Horoscopes, but if you haven't I suggest

you do. It's required reading for anyone who wants to know about the

subject and what they can expect from it, past and present.

Most of the career books on astrology approach it from the assumption

that the client already comes from a certain background...which, for

our

clientele that will not be true in many cases. I think one of the

reasons why this is not discussed in many books is because it isn't

glamourous, and many astrologers are somewhat spolied by the upper

class

clients some of them have. I plan to write more about this issue when

I

have time, and I hope you'll give more thought to this and other

questions.

SAM: I will read the book. I just ordered it. However, I want to be

clear: are you saying that a mundane horoscope trumps our own

individual

desires and horoscopes? I know that's true in some cases, but not all.

It's a chess match. Some pieces you can play; some you can't.

Villefranche

in his " Astrosynthesis " calls it (or it's translated) as a reciprocal

cooperation. Is this what you mean? I just want to be clear here.

MU: I think the clients an astrologer gets have alot to do with the

kind

of person the astrologer is, in a truly holistic sense. Very often

your

chart will give you strong clues as to what kind of clients you can

expect to receive. It's something I've observed for a long time now.

In

my case, I tend to get " hard cases " because in part I have a hard

chart

- in my Western chart, I have packed 8th House - plumbing the depths

of

hard issues and taboo subjects (psychology, sexuality, death, race,

class, death, etc) - with Neptune in the 10th (vagaries with respect

to

one's true life and purpose, diffculty making practical career

choices,

disappointment with the working world, etc) - so I get alot of career

concerns on the part of clients. And of course, with Venus under

stress

from both Saturn and Mars, I get my share of relationship clients as

well. So I say all to say that I think the fact that you get the

overwhelming majority of clients that want to talk about relationships

says alot about your 7th, with the Uranus-Pluto conjunction in the 7th

along with Venus. The 10th House isn't emphasized like mine is. Make

sense?

SAM: Yes, though I still think that a good portion of calls that many

astrologers get are for relationships. I've received confirmation for

this

from the psychic hotlines I work for, independent of the calls that

were

directed to me. I was told, clearly, 90% of people's calls would

concern

relationships, and I've seen this to be true when they've reached me.

So,

yes, your chart does speak about what kind of clientele and issues

you face;

but I think empirically relationships rate higher in people's minds

than the

plight of the Working Poor, even if they're one of them. It sounds

sociologically grand, but not wholly practical.

MU: Yes, I've studied Lilly's works as well. He was one heck of an

astrologer, doing some 1600 charts a year by most estimates; he was a

seriously hardworking astrologer, at a time when computers or

ephemerides or even clocks were not available (most people back then

didn't know when they were born, only nobles and the like; the hippest

thing to have was a clock, and it was very expensive; most people had

no

idea what time it was at all!). All that being said, I must

respectfully

disagree with your comments - the times have changed in many ways.

Back

in Lilly's time, one's chances for career choice was extremely

limited;

most men didn't travel if they weren't in the army, and even then

chances were real good that they would die before they got into combat

theater. Women's lives were greatly shortened as well, due in the main

to pregnancy complications, etc. Psychology hadn't come around

yet...most people were illiterate...and the State still ruled by way

of

the Monarchy, more often than not guided (or dictated to) by the

Church

of Rome. Constitional Law as we know it today, had not yet existed in

full (if at all) during Lilly's time. Illiteracy was the order of the

day. On top of that, as I said earlier, most people didn't know when

they were born, thus Lilly's awesome rep as a Horary Astrologer - and

as

you know, Horary is much more suited toward answering " nuts and bolts "

type questions than the more Jungian/Humanistic/Rudyharian

astrological

approach. If you go back and read what I've said about vocational

stuff

and the like, I've presented a few theories and raised some questions

as

well. If you want I can send those papers/posts to you...? Let me

know.

SAM: You are absolutely correct here. I was wrong. I would love to see

the vocational posts.

By the way, Lilly was born May 11 1602 2am LMT in Diesworth, England;

New Style, Plac 2 Pis 3, Rodden: Mercury conjunct Uranus, with Neptune

opposed Asc; four planet cluster in Taurus, the Moon in Cap, with the

Sun opposed Saturn (a good bit of Earth - practicality). Lilly's

popularity is seen in the exact Sun-Venus conjunction in Taurus and

Moon

square Jupiter, Jupiter ruling the 10th. No doubt he was a great

intellect, astrologer, scholar and writer and his works should be in

my

view required reading.

SAM: I've seen a different time, I think, but I'll check that.

MU: Not a problem...but I would like to say this before I begin.

Correct

me if I'm wrong, but Ph.D. candidates take how long to write their

thesis, what, 3, 4 years on average? I started putting pen to paper on

my theory just over a year or so ago, say two years at the most? I'd

say

I'm making pretty good time. Lots of years of observation and thinking

it over, and reading and studying and collecting stuff, but actually

putting pen to paper? Two years tops. Again, not bad.

So, I'm gonna run it all down for you and everyone here today, in

rough

draft form, so you can get a clearer picture...as Rakim would say, I'm

gonna do the rest of this slow. But please keep in mind, and I'm going

to be keen to point this out in the finished piece, that I DO NOT have

all the answers. My piece - my theory - is the starting point to all

this, not the end. I leave it up to other astrologers to either accept

or reject what I'm saying and to build on the initial work if they

find

it worthy enough.

Now...

1. My contention is that, up till now, very little has been said or

written about the specific analytical dimensions and counseling

concerns

of people of color clients, particularly but not limited to African

Americans. I suggest this is due to limited exposure of " mainstream "

astrologers to African Americans and other peoples of color, as well

as

the fact that not many people of color have much contact with those

astrologers in the reverse. The myth that people of color aren't as

interested in such subjects, i.e, astrology, have not in my experience

of over 5 years of teaching the subject at Temple U. proven themselves

to be true. To discuss Race, and to a lesser extent, Class, within the

Humanstic Astrological Analytical and Counseling Model is at best a

sensitive subject, tinged with all manner of emotions and political

subjectivity. But as the times dictate (seen in the Uranus-Neptune

Mutual Reception Pisces/Aqr w/Pluto in Sag) Astrology must in my view

make this " great leap foward " in order to truly keep up with the times

in order to be relevant. Multiculturalism is a reality now. Our

Astrology of Today - and Tomorrow - should and must reflect that.

SAM: I'd like to support your empirical findings with some other

evidence.

I'm putting together a business plan for my astrological consulting

business, so I've been working on the market segmentation aspect of

it. What

I've found in my research is that according to a recent Harris poll,

47% of

the Black population believes in astrology as versus 29% of the White

population. So I'm with you here.

2. Humanistic Astrology demands that the Human Being in all his/her

dimensions must be considered FIRST before any assessment of the

horoscope is to be made. This allows for the adjustment of the

potentials in the horoscope to fit the life circumstances of the

individual, so that both the person and the astrologer gets the most

out

of the time together, the most out of the horoscope. I posit that when

it comes to African Americans, these adjustments become even more

necessary, due to the unique history and present circumstances of the

majority of African Americans living in the USA. My theory rests on

this

premise.

SAM: I need more clarification here.

MU:

3. To that end, I discovered several important analytical keys that

are

crucial in dealing with this question. They are: Pluto, the Angular

Cross of Houses, Saturn Rx, and Mars. These symbols are in the chart

of

every living being, and will operate in largely the same way; however,

again, given the specific and unique circumstances with African

Americans are placed, I posit that a great emphasis be laid on these

symbols in the chart with a view towards specific remedial counsel in

those areas for maximum fulfillment of the personality to take place.

4. Pluto represents Themes associated with Race, Racism; Empowerment

and

Disempowerment; Perspective and Projection (fears). In the chart of an

African American (or indeed, any minority group member) a thorough

understanding of the empowerment potential of Pluto is essential.

Perspective is clarified through objective understanding of the issues

both personally and as a part of a group. Strategies to consciously

make

use of Pluto in the chart can then be made and implemented.

SAM: See, I think you do your self an immense disservice by not

addressing

the role of Neptune in all of this. Empowerment can only happen if

you can

see beyond the illusion (Neptune). As I've expressed to you before,

one of

my deepest, personal discoveries as a psychic when I went to India is

that

this country broadcasts a frequency (not literally. I don't think

there's

someone in a control room doing this.) that actively discourages and

beats

down Black people on a psychic level. I felt it most sharply when I

came

back to the country. Even after two degrees in African American

studies, I

had never heard any discussion on the actual psychic ramifications of

being

Black in America. This is Neptune, not just Pluto. I acutally think

Pluto

" serves " Neptune, fulfills the wishes and intentions of Neptune.

Neptune

symbolizes the primal psi power goo to make a reality adhere to you.

I do

believe that angular contact or inner planet contact to Neptune will

speak

loudly how a person is dealing with the societal conception of their

reality. It's the Matrix effect--being inside of it, of course. I

have a

solar conjunction to Neptune, and I'm Pisces rising.

This suggests that I would be, perforce, sensitive to the stirrings of

Neptune. However, as a Scorpio, sidereally and tropically, with an

angular

Pluto and trine to my other traditional ruler (with the tightest orb

in my

chart), I do understand power dynamics. So I agree with you, Pluto,

speaks

loudly about race; but don't ignore his/her master, Neptune. " Always

just a

master and an apprentice for the Sith. "

5. The Angular Houses of the Horoscope are considered the " power

zones "

of the chart for any planets there will tend to have more " say " than

planets placed elsewhere, all things being equal. Each Angular House

is

in essence the midpoint for that entire hemisphere, and as such, it

will

have a " say " in the affairs of the Houses involved. For example, the

First House will play a role in one's health (12th House), lovability

(11th House), self-esteem (2nd House) and overall mindset (3rd House).

For African Americans - on average - such Houses (Angular) will tend

to

a higher " charged " meaning and importance. So, the First House plays a

huge role insofar as the potential health profile is concerned, given

the fact that so many African Americans suffer from poor health,

ranging

from lack of funds to get medical treatment and care, to lack of

information about said care, to lifestyle habits and lack of access to

medical facilities due to discrimination, etc.

SAM: I think this is a race and class issue. Most Americans don't

have

health care, especially independent artists and cultural workers like

me,

and are in the same boat. The discrimination is certainly a factor,

but

it's true in many parts of this country that your insurance card (or

lack

thereof) will have you ejected from the emergency room faster than

your

color.

6. Saturn Rx's impact insofar as a weakened father symbolism is

well-documented. So too is the rate of fatherless homes within the

Black

community. Therefore, Saturn Rx in the chart of an African American,

particularly younger ones, is a powerful point of discussion with that

client, again with a view toward consciously using that Saturn

symbolism.

SAM: Yes, though I'm a Saturn Rx and my father was not absent. He was

just

a rogue, as in a societal criminal for a good portion of his life. He

was a

righteous rogue who killed people at times, but my father was home

nearly

every night. (My father was involved in the Mafia, though not made as

he

was only half-Sicilian. The other half was Black/Native American.)

7. Mars' symbolism is yet another point of major discussion with an

African American client, particularly men, in light of the fact that

anger and potential violence derails so many lives in the Black

community. The approach here is the same as with Pluto and Saturn.

SAM: Yes, true that.

8. As a broader overview towards understanding the African American

community in the USA it is most helpful to consider the chart for the

landing of the first African Slaves at Jamestown, VA (Aug 30 1619,

10.15am LMT; Plac 4 Sco 4, Penfield). In this chart, among other

things,

Pluto tightly conjuncts the Moon, both in Taurus in the 7th House, and

both tightly opposed Mars rising in Scorpio in the Asc. Just like a

national chart describes its people's mores and folkways, so this

chart

I propose does the same with respect to African Americans, far more

than

any of the national charts suggested for the USA. In fact, it is my

contention that the synastric ties between these charts and that for

American Slavery highlights the tensions between the Races from those

days to the present, and possibly on into the future. Additionally, I

posit that the chart responds astrologically to every major turning

point in the history of African Americans. I posit that Pluto is

involved in every major incident, not just in this chart, in in any

national chart anywhere there are tensions ethnically and/or racially.

SAM: Again, overlay the Sibly chart for the US with this chart and

look at

the Neptune contacts. The First African's Mercury conjuncts the US

Neptune

by less than a degree and there are wide fourth harmonic contacts

between

the First African's Neptune and the US's Saturn, Jupiter, Venus, Sun

with

the First African south node conjoining the US Sun with a 2 degree

orb.

Pluto plays a 6th and 12th harmonic role of support and concordance.

So,

again, they work in tandem.

A few examples are...

Turkey Oct 29 1923 8.30pm EET, Ankara; Plac 7 Can 47, Campion: Pluto

in

Cancer rising in the Cancer Asc disposes of the Scorpio Sun, square

Mars

in Libra in the 4th; Mars rules the 11th(!) - the European Union.

Turkey

has jumped through more hoops than any other EU applicant country,

including those from the former Soviet/Eastern bloc, BECAUSE its a

predominantly Muslim state - and there are powerful voices within the

EU

that have openly said that they want the EU to remain White and

Christian.

Nazi Germany Jan 30 1933 11.15am CET Berlin; Plac 25 Tau 38, Campion:

Pluto opposed the MC from the 3rd (mindset, propoganda), tightly

opposed

Venus, the chart ruler, in the 9th. Pluto rules the 7th (dealings with

foreign countries). Hitler considered the Jews to be of another Race,

and Anti-Semitism is widely considered by most people to be a form of

Racism.

Israel May 14 1948 4pm EET Tel Aviv; Plac 23 Lib 03, Campion: Pluto

conjunct Saturn both in Leo in the 10th, with Saturn ruling the 4th,

Pluto ruling the 2nd - the promised land for the Jews, and the

resources

gained therefrom, a major component of ANY potential party leader's

platform. Israel is the only state in the modern world that was

specifically designed for a particular type of people only, based on

religious/ethnic/racial character. Non-Jewish citizens, particularly

of

Arab descent, have a very hard time settling in Israel, particularly

in

certain parts of the country. Is it any accident that both Israel and

the USA walked out of a conference on racism in Durban, SAFR only days

before Sep 11, 2001? Hmm...

USA Gemini Asc Jul 4 1776 2.13am LMT Philadelphia, PA; Plac 7 Gem 17,

Campion: Pluto Rx in Cap in the 9th opposed chart ruling Mercury, also

Rx; Pluto rules the 6th House (Slavery, workers, also the

6th=military,

and Blacks disproportionately enter the military more than anyone

else).

France Sep 21 1792 3.30pm LMT Paris; Plac 25 Cap 33, Campion: Pluto

rising in Cap/1st, ruling the 9th and 10th, opposed Uranus in the 7th

and square Mars in the 9th(!!!) - keep in mind that France has had to

deal with an ever-increasing Islamic presence within her borders over

the past few years in particular; France now has the single largest

amount of Muslims living within any European country, making up 1/5th

of

the total French population.

Ivory Coast Aug 7 1960 12am GMT Abidjan; Plac 15 Tau 32, Campion:

Pluto

in the 4th and ruling the 7th square Mars in Gemini rising in the

Taurus

Asc. I know you've head about what's going there so I'll just skip

ahead

to the next one.

Sudan Jan 1 1956 8am EET Khartoum; Plac 4 Aqr 31, Campion: Moon

conjunct

Pluto in the 7th/Leo, both square Mars-Saturn in Scorpio in the 10th;

Pluto rules the 10th. There's the symbolism of the government-backed

militia - both of whom are Arab (the government heads and the

militia) -

against the indigenous African/Black population, particularly in the

Darfor region.

These are all mundane astrological examples of the role of Pluto in

terms of racial themes, issues and incidents around the world and at

various points in Human history, past and present.

SAM: I will have to study these for myself, but not now. How about

Russia, by the way? I'm curious. Russia would have serious Plutonian

activity, I bet.

Now, a few personal chart examples...

Two prominent African Americans have been in the news over the past

year

- Michael Jackson and Bill Cosby. We'll take up Jackson's chart first.

Michael Jackson Aug 29 1958 11.53pm EST in Gary, IN; Plac 16 Gem 50,

Fearrington Rect: note the powerful Sun-Pluto conjunction in the 4th,

both disposed by chart ruling Mercury, itself Rx, also in the 4th.

There

is little doubt that Jackson's early upbringing had to do with issues

about being Black, looking Black (facial features, particularly the

nose), and we know now that his father, Joe Jackson, was not

particularly helpful in this regard. Jackson internalized these

negative

comments about his appearance from an early age, and had the means to

alter it - radically (Full Moon birth, Moon in Pisces - " emotional

sponge " ). No meaningful discussion can be had with Jackson about his

chart WITHOUT dealing with these issues.

I think it's fair to say, that a great many African Americans have

some

Michael Jackson in them, to the extent that so many alter themselves

*because* of their shame at the way they look in relation to the

larger

White Society. This is particularly true for Black women, and has

been a

major issue for me in my consultation with many Sistas. The 4th House,

as we all know, is the most important from a cultural, emotional,

psychological and parental foundational standpoint - and if it is

compromised, as we see here in the case of Jackson, the results could

be

problematic indeed. Jackson desperately needed to be loved for who and

what he was/is, and to be shown the power and importance of his visage

" as is " . Again, note that in Jackson's case, two of the Angular Houses

are involved - the 1st and 4th. The Asc, as we all know, represents

most

how we look.

Bill Cosby's comments since May of 2004 have been widely reported,

prompting all manner of discussion pro and con nationwide, on what he

considers to be a very problematic state of affairs with respect

specifically to lower-class African Americans (Cosby Jul 12 1937

12.30am

EST, Philadelphia, PA; Plac 13 Tau 17, Rodden). Whether you agree or

disagree with him (and frankly I'm somewhere in between; I thought he

failed to offer balance and nuance to his arguments), his comments

have

started yet another round of what I like to call the " Bell Curve "

argument - ARE Black folks, in the main, simply incapable of

accomplishment on par with Whites? Or is it a matter of external

debilitating conditions that lead so many to think and act as they do?

And, what should the role of Astrology be, here, if at all? Can it be

of

assistance to those folks Cosby so passionately has talked about? Why

has there been no discussion of this points to date?

SAM: I don't think Cosby entertains any of the Bell Curve's tenets.

He's

merely

arguing the same thing that Carter G. Woodson does in Miseducation of

the

Negro, actually. I might also add that he's saying the same things

that

most conservative Black leaders, mostly nationalists, say like

Farrakhan and

even Booker T. (though not a nationalist). Black people,

especially in

the hood, have to be willing to expend as much energy in tangible

gains in

education and property control as they do in accessories and other

things.

I agree. It doesn't make sense for your kid to have $200 shoes and

not know

how to read. It doesn't make sense to live in subsidized housing and

drive

a cadillac. This goes back to something I said earlier. Cosby's

addressing

not the issue of oppression, but stupidity. It's not question of

genetics,

but the cultural misapplication of resources corroborated by

ignorance or

lazy choices. So I'm not getting this Bell Curve argument.

MU: In Cosby's chart, Pluto sits in the 4th, tightly opposed the MC

and

rules the 7th. Throughout his career, Cosby has been very aware of how

he represented Black people in his career, and and has been a strong

advocate of " family values " weaving these themes strongly into his

standup routines and TV shows (too bad his own real life failed to

meet

up to such high standards - his longterm affair that ended in a

lovechild scandal, his only son being killed by a White immigrant out

in

California, one of his daughters having a long bout with drug

addiction), are clearly seen in the Sun-Moon focus of Cancer/Virgo,

and

more.

As in Jackson's case, the 4th House is emphasized, with Pluto

involved;

empowerment, the lack thereof, perspective - and in Cosby's case, I

suspect, a bit of projection/displacement in light of the reality of

his

own personal life. Still, because Cosby has been and continues to be

such a strong pop cultural force, we can take his chart to be more

than

just a natal one, and look at it in terms of what it can mean on a

broader level. With transiting Saturn coming up on a conjunction to

his

Pluto (and having gone over his Sun earlier this year) we can expect

much more discussion on these issues as Cosby takes his message " to

the

streets " (he already has made enroads in this regard, working with

various community leaders and the like in several states where inner

city Black folks live, like Springfield, MA).

We all remember the celebrated trial of OJ Simpson (born Jul 9 1947

8.08am PST San Fracncisco, CA; Plac 24 Leo 47, Rodden); coming on the

heels of the Rodney King beating and trial, the circumstances

surrounding Simpson certainly didn't cool those tensions out

racially -

if anything, they inflamed them. Although Simpson was charged with the

double murder of his ex-wife and her friend, we all know why the trial

got so much attention (afterall, Simpson had long been retired from

pro

football and was at best a B-list actor - hardly a top-notch

celebrity).

It was Simpson's marriage to the prototypical American White ideal of

beauty in feminine form - blond, blue-eyed, and inaccessible to a

Black

man. Interracial marriage in the USA is much more fiction than fact,

particularly as it relates to Black/White pairings. As pointed out

before, the lowest amount of such unions occurs between these groups,

with the highest number going to pairings involving White men and

Asian

women (and in recent years, White men and White Hispanic women). The

Simpson trial was more than merely a double murder investigation, it

was

a Trial by Fire for the entire nation, with the World standing by,

watching it all. It was a deep shock to the sensibilities, a jarring

bolt of reality with respect to " race relations " and the harsh truth

held up for all to see that the Justice System is NOT fair, that

Racism

IS alive and well, and that there ARE indeed Two Americas - one White,

the other Black, rarely if ever coming together to meet.

In Simpson's chart, Pluto is conjunct Saturn in the 12th House; Pluto

rules the 4th (there it is again!). If you check the declinations,

you'll see that Venus, Uranus and Pluto are all in aspect - a perfect

symbolism for Simspon's romantic choices (he has only had one Black

wife; all the other women in his life, to date, have been White). A

year

before his trial, transit Pluto was square his Asc, passing through

his

4th. No doubt his whole life perspective changed as a result of the

trial and its aftermath.

Hope this gives you a clearer picture of where I'm coming from, and

again, keep in mind, this are just some of my notes from my rough

drafts. I claim no definitive, comprehensive answers, just a theory or

two. Capice?

SAM: Again, I would have to study these, but I would like study their

Neptunes as well. I also would study the elements of Leo (or fixity)

that's

usually found in the leaders who push for self-reliance, like Malcolm

X.

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