2-Amit, Relationship between freedom & determinism, in life..., Mark Kincaid 11/29

[Guest guest]

Dear Friends:

 

Here's a delightful discussion regarding whether freedom or determinism, dominates life....

 

 

enjoy

 

 

Mark Kincaid....

 

 

 

Dear vinita Ji and mark ji,

Thanks for initiating a very nice and meaningful discussion.

This is our real quest and it can and it should go to ultimate................

I humbly want to share my experiences also...................

I think there are so many questions related to Astrology and conciousness which should be discussed.

vinita ji you rightly said that the technique doesn't matter in meditation as meditation is touching your deeper and deeper self and let it radiate in our outer world.

I didn't believe in astrology in early stages of my life ...rather i used to oppose people around me who believed in astrology etc(because here in india both type of people co-exist who are sincere and intelligently understand astrology and who are superstitious only)......

but i loved God...........

 

 

 

(see below for rest of initial experience)..

 

 

 

 

Dear Amit:

 

Very beautiful description of your experiences, very wonderful to read.

 

I especially liked your descriptions of 'free will', because I believe that 'free will' is at the very core of our human existences.

 

However, Jyotish or Astrology has also, like you, made me aware of 'determinism' as well.

 

And as you probably know, the debate between freedom & determinism, is an ancient and still, on-going question and dilema.

 

We can sense and see example of both aspects of life.

 

We're walking down a road and we get to a fork.

We have free will to go either way, but....once we've made our choice, it's inevitable, even pre-determined that if we went the left way, we'd see first a blue house and then a yellow and then a brick house.

 

But, at every moment we still have freedom. We can stop at any moment, and even go backwards the other way.

 

But, if we do, it will be inevitable that we'll see (along the right street), first a white house, then a yellow one and then, a little park.

 

At every moment in life, we are living freedom and determinism.

 

We should all just start with this, and move on to how can we integrate the two better.

 

Jyotish also shows us these 2 aspects to life.

 

On the surface it looks like Jyotish is more about the pre-determined aspects. Cuz when you begin to understand it, you see that this and that aspect of personality are caused by this and that aspect of the Stars.

 

The Truth however, is that 'we' are the originators of our 'charts' and stars.

 

We chose all the details of our Astrology, even if we didn't know better.

 

That's why we find ourselves with strengths and weaknesses.

 

Imagine ourselves as beings flying through the Universe, experiencing life-time after life-time.

 

Each step we take is involved with choice and consequences of past actions, as well.

 

The KEY, is to figure out how to increase our freedom, so that we don't feel the negative influences of being either 'lost' to our 'consequences' or to this relative Universe in which we live.

 

One wonderful think I've learned is that the Benefic planets in our charts, represent areas within us that are already very strong, natural, or full of positivity, and maybe even freedom.

 

I have two natural benefics in my original birth chart. Jupiter in Pisces and Sun and Leo, and whenever I found myself functioning or flowing in the various aspects of myself that involved these two areas, I always experienced positivity and success.

 

But, no one knew how to teach me about my malefics.

 

The malefics represent our weaknesses, or better said, the various opportunities, that we literally were born to face and strengthen.

 

So, these malefics then, representing our opportunities for future growth and progress are also about our future freedoms, and not just about our past, consequences of mistakes, failures, or mistaken judgements.

 

This has been one of the greatest insights that I've had in Jyotish; that these malefics are not just symbolic of our problems, challenges, sufferings and griefs. These same malefics, looked at from a different angle, ARE, themselves, the very areas in which we've come to change and transform.

 

Take accidents for example. We could be accident prone in our lives, and be able to trace it to a functional 'malefic' Mars, someone in our charts. This would then explain to us why we're having so many accidents when we don't try to!

 

Normally, then, we're given a variety of Jyotish remedies, which are generally not very successful, especially since it's generally considered impossible to change our Stars!

 

So, we're told during the entire dasa periods of Mars, we'll be subject to accidents, and therefore 'be careful'!

 

Well, recently, the entire field of 'Veda' has been revised, even turned up side down.

 

Where it has been thought very difficult to meditate, to change ourselves, or our karmas, and India, for one, has been consumed by this out of balance view of 'fate'....

recently, over the last 50 years, in fact.....

the World has been shown that this strong 'belief' itself, is the problem.

 

In the Transcendental Meditation movement, founded by His Holiness Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, the esence of his Vedic teaching is that it's now possible, to meditate naturally, effortlessly and expand one's Consciousness.

 

This idea and yet, practical 'practice' has now been demonstrated and experienced by millions of individuals in every country of the World, for over 50 years!

 

Maharishi himself, says this innocent, effortless experience is at the very heart of a complete revival of Vedic Knowledge which is the most important 'happening' (my word), in our present world.

 

I, myself have been fortunate to be attracted to this technique and practicing myself since 1970!

 

So, I know that it works, and every day, as one meditates, life becomes more successful, constructive and even, free!

 

But, when I learned Jyotish, I discovered a great compliment to the normal, benefits of meditating alone.

 

In fact, I even found that if the study of Jyotish could be added to the profundities of meditation, then this was a great complement!

 

Through these wonderful Vedic remedies like Meditation, even yaguas, even Ayurved is full of new and exciting 'remedies' that one can practice to literally strengthen and improve oneself.

 

But, in Jyotish, the belief persists that we're only dealing with 'fate'.

 

The Truth is that 'both' do exist.

 

And as hard as it is for human intellect to wrap itself around these two, simultaneous ideas, one's Consciousness, can 'experience' the essence of this truth.

 

Think about the field of Consciousness.

 

If you're already a practioner of meditation, you may be very familiar with this 'state'.

 

When the mind enters into deeper levels of Consciousness, one has a direct experience of the 'Home of All Freedom'....

 

Consciousness, itself, is the most 'free' thing in Life.

 

Itself, it's not, caused by anything. Being self-existing, it's also found to be eternal. Being eternal, it's also found infinite.

 

Being infinite it also has many, many other amazing qualities, which are absolutely, startling to experience and enliven in one's life...

 

Normally, when one meditates, the fuller potential of this undeveloped, pure consciousness, gets enlivened and every aspect of one's life, spontaneously becomes better!

 

This, itself, is fundamentally, Earth shattering, though the experience, is very natural, effortless and even kind of gentle.

 

But the consequences are remarkable.

 

All of one's problems in life, whether lack of self-confidence, or emotional unhappiness, or even, being accident prone or impatient, etc.; all, spontaneously become less because of this amazing experience.

 

However, when I started studying Jyotish, I encountered many 'meditators' who were still complaining about this or that problem in their life, even after 15, 20 or even 30 years of meditating!

 

In my own life, I was personally drawn to Jyotish, like you, because of some frustrating areas, that were still hanging on even after about 18 years of meditation.

 

When I looked at Jyotish, and especially all my friends who were complaining even after years of meditation, I found that each and every one of their 'frustrations' was wrapped around or involved with ONE OF THE MALEIFCS', in their charts.

 

This discovery, thrilled me at the time, and soon after I realized, Jyotish could be a great compliment to things like 'meditation', because Jyotish has this ability to focus on improving any particular malefic areas.

 

As I stumbled upon this realization, I noticed the great possibility of literally changeing or improving any and all of the Planets that are functioning 'malefically'.

 

This then became my path of Jyotish.

 

Today, I understand that it's literally possible, and in fact, the very reason why we were born, to understand and transform our weaknesses, into strengths!

 

As one 'does' this, one then finds more and more freedom in life.

 

One first experiences more freedom, in the very particulars, that one was previously suffering.

 

If it was an accident prone 'nature' that had been there one's whole life, or whether, it was chronic headaches, or high blood pressure, or impatience, or sadness, melancholy emotional stuff, whatever the complaint....

 

Jyotish can first identify the Planet that's causing the problems, and then, by effortlessly learning how to transform 'that' into it's Benefic status!

 

one can gain freedom from the frustrating boundries, and sufferings of any malefic situation.

 

Nice talking with you.

 

 

Thanks for writing such a nice description of your experiences and sharing them with us.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

Mark Kincaid

 

 

 

 

amit kumar <amit_call

Transcend-Meditation

Mon, 29 Nov 2004 03:02:36 -0800 (PST)

Transcend-Meditation

Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Vinita ji and mark ji, Re: Relationship/Meditation & Astrology, > Mark Kincaid 11/27

 

 

Dear vinita Ji and mark ji,

Thanks for initiating a very nice and meaningful discussion.

This is our real quest and it can and it should go to ultimate................

I humbly want to share my experiences also...................

I think there are so many questions related to Astrology and conciousness which should be discussed.

vinita ji you rightly said that the technique doesn't matter in meditation as meditation is touching your deeper and deeper self and let it radiate in our outer world.

I didn't believe in astrology in early stages of my life ...rather i used to oppose people around me who believed in astrology etc(because here in india both type of people co-exist who are sincere and intelligently understand astrology and who are superstitious only)......

but i loved God...........

i started practices of Yoga and started experiencing deep meditative moods.

At that time my whole motive was to change my life........to gain higher levels in spiritual life .

I was experiencing free will and spreading the very concept of free will enthusiaatically.

I started experiencing intiuitions which became true......

this was to understand that we can create our life with all the understanding of what are our strengths and weaknesses............till now astrology was nowhere.

i learned palmistry ...it explained me the diversity of nature among people and some other concepts ....i enjoyed but it contributed to free will concept only.

I sincerely believed and tried to make others understand that we are not working with full heart to change our lives......

i thought people guilty who were not living fulfilling their wishes............

though i believed in God's will.......

I always saw myself lacking due to my own inner laziness and other negtive qualities............

I believed like as many modern spiritual Gurus state that we can create circumtances pursuing our wish fulfillment (and this is true.........)

But i experienced a major failure in that area of life where i could never thought of it..................

where i was quite assured...even question of belief/dis-belief never came up to my mind......

i was shooked deeply..

and then i turned to astrlogy to understand what was it.......

also i found earlier that there were some unexplored and misunderstood aspects of personality which can be well understood through astrology but believe in astrology was limited to this much concept only.

i have started learning astrology after very much clarifying my concepts...........

but this whole clarification came from deep scruitiny ...a lot of images,frames,concepts were broken down ....

NOW i can say that PREDETERMINISM is a higher concept with all the grace of Free will remains there working.

We enjoy free will and change our lives........

The driving factor of this Free will to work are Our natural traits,our understandings,our outer conciousness, strengths and weaknesses of our personality,our experiences of this very life,our wishes,our wants at deep inner levels,our strengths and weaknesses at deep inner levels and finally a great reserviour of Free will.(in this order)

This all is limited by a boundry line of previous Karmas and our Lesson plan in this incarnation.

Above all this success and failure,Happiness and grief,glorification and deglorification is the way to Divinity...as both aspects(good / bad) of life leads us to divine......so everything is His grace to uplift us.

Also our free will is unlimited but we identify ourself with outer persona(our mind having images,frames,adhered to habits) Here astrology can help us to understand the unidentified or misunderstood aspects of personality.The relation of astrology and Karmic results.

And learning that behind every event there is a plan to uplift us that was necessary this way only, we will enjoy living life in tune.

And in touching deep in meditation will make us silent asking nothing to change............as the scriptures and experienced ones says......

As in scriptures is said that ::: we should fulfill our small wishes and eliminate the great ones with knowledge.............Here astrology helps...........

as we can identify our real needs and wishes........which can be fulfilled and which area needs to be stregthend ....

I think predeterminism is a higher concept ....... a person who sees everything in tune asks nothing to change for him........

please correct me if needful................

i sincerely admire the efforts of mark ji...helping people to make them understand the way to progress thru meditation and astrology..............and for spreading knowledge of ayurveda and astrology.......

looking for guidance always...............

humbly...........

Amit

 

 

m.kincaid wrote:

Dear Vinita:

 

This morning when I awoke, I kept thinking that people need to understand that

this 'new' kind of Jyotish/Astrology is really a knowledge and wisdom about

enlightenment.

 

When Astrology, especially Jyotish is looked at but, from the point of view of

Consciousness, then Jyotish can literally, become a Path of Enlightenment...

 

Our charts certainly represent the path, and the life that each one of us has

come to live in this life....

but, without the knowledge of consciousness, especailly, the knowledge of the

expansion of consciousness, Jyotish has remained a rather curiosity, and not

too effective ...aspect of vedic wisdom.

 

But, with the knowledge of consciousness, and even the many wisdoms of Ayurved,

Jyotish can be 'practiced' and used for it's real, healing and transformative

power, to help us evolve....!

 

Because of my background as a TM teacher and even a practioner of Ayurved, I

bring both of these great vedic disciplines to my Jyotish.

 

And when I do people's charts, I make many suggestions related to meditation

and ayurved, which will go along way at helping people literally, transform

their lives, into the better parts of their 'destinys'...

 

I use the word 'destiny' here to mean,...full potential!

 

Nice hearing from you, again.

 

My thanksgiving holdiday here, in Chicago with family, is a nice break, a kind

of mini-vacation, but here I am, writing all these interesting articles,...

because my mind is rested and clear....

 

 

take care

 

 

Mark Kincaid

 

 

 

 

 

Dear Mark,

 

Happy Thanksgiving!

 

Yes, there is much to be thankful about.

 

I too have been thinking about the astrology as it is practiced today and the

essence of it as it must have existed in its original form.

 

These are some stray thoughts....

 

We are the Cosmos - or maybe part of it.

 

Astrology is the glass eye we put on to look at the cosmos within. The glass

eye is not very transparent / clear / it may even have cracks or distortions -

so we don't get a clear picture.

 

Experiencing conciousness through meditation can help us see and understand

what we actually are.

 

And then astrology can perhaps make a lot more sense.

 

With best wishes!

 

Vinita

 

 

 

 

 

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