2-V.Sreelatha, Co-esistence of freedom & causality...., Mark Kincaid...10/13

[Guest guest]

Fascinating discussion about free will and destiny!

 

 

MK

 

 

 

 

Dear V. Sreelatha, & All:

 

I think it's healthy to understand we have the power and potential of 'freedom' and even 'free will', but,....also that....

 

that ability to exercise that free will, can and does get diminished, the more malefic influences are going on in our charts...

 

Therefore it's possible to in fact, increase our ability to have more power of freedom of will.

 

This means we can grow.

 

The issue of free will and determinism.....looks like an eternal arguement, and there are good answers on both side...

 

However, I believe that in some strange and mysterious way, the true answer is that 'both' do exist!

 

I heard a famour guru, one time, being asked this very question.

 

" Which is it free will or fate? "

 

And the answer was...... " both " !

 

The problem is the intellect considers this to be an either/or question...

 

But life has several, opposite and seemingly opposed qualites,....like 'Absolute' & 'Relative',...

and even,...'spirit & matter'...

 

This debate, 'spirit & matter', was a very popular Philosophical discussion for centuries... but today, perhaps because more and more people 'experience'....pure spirit....

 

this whole discussion has seemed to just go away....

 

Perhaps this free will & fate question and quagmire, will go the same way....

 

Perhaps in the same way that our nervous systems are able to simultaneously, hold on to the ability ....to be 'active'....and to be 'silent' at the same time....

 

maybe in such a way, we'll come to understand that freedom,...and causality...both co-exist!

 

All I know for sure, is...that the more I develop my inner side, more awareness, more consciousness,...more power of Self...

 

the more, true 'freedom' I feel!

 

and the less 'bondage' to the outside, and to the old habits that used to be there...

 

Maybe that's the best statement yet, for confirming,....the ability to grow in freedom!

 

So, let's think of Astrology as including the qualities of 'fate' of past karmas, or consequences, but still, the ability to change, to grow, transform,....and even increase.....more '.....freedom....'.

 

 

Jai Guru!

 

 

 

Mark Kincaid

 

 

 

 

 

 

" V. Sreelatha " <venkatarama_sastry

 

Thu, 14 Oct 2004 01:03:41 -0000

 

Fwd: Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Re: Free will, Astrology & power of meditation, > Mark Kincaid...10/11

 

 

 

Dear Mark and Partha,

 

It is a joy to read this thread! Such a liberating idea, that we are

100% free. Yes, indeed, we are not free from the consequences of our

own past actions, as per the karma theory .. but this seems to

contradict free will ONLY if you use that karma as your starting

point - you did not go as far back as you need to. I am not saying

this very well, let me try again.

 

We are all so conditioned to believe that our karma make us behave

in a certain way, or give us good or bad results. However, it is not

a simple linear equation, that karma causes us to do something, that

a past action causes a reaction, which has to be worked through.

There was something else that came before that action ... and THAT

something was your free will to perform that action. Once you

exercise that free will, and perform a certain action, the outcome

is a given in many cases - whining that we can't exercise our free

will to escape the outcome, is not quite fair. (I am oversimplifying

to make a point.... in reality free still exists, since you always

have a choice as to your future actions.) It's like throwing a ball

up in the air, you have the free will to throw it up if you want,

but the fact remains that it will come down because of gravity,

because THAT was the reaction that you set in motion with your

action done with 100% free will.

 

Astrology is totally compatible with free will. Astrology shows the

what, when, where, how, why, who etc etc of things that are meant to

happen. The true " cause " of the happennings though, are the actions

that you yourself set in motion, either knowingly or unknowingly,

it's not a planet somewhere. When I read statements such as Saturn

is causing sorrow, I always think of a really simple analogy. Say a

murderer is put in jail, is it really the fault of the cop that

caught him, the judge that sentenced him, the prison warden that

prevents him from escaping, or the jail for holding him? These are

the roles that the planets / houses / rasis / dispositers play. The

true cause is the murder that this criminal committed, when he

exercised his " free will " , and that is what set the rest of the

events in motion.

 

All these, strictly, MHO as always.

Venkatarama Sreelatha

 

, partha sarathy

<partvinu5> wrote:

>

> Dear Mark

>

> Well said.

>

> I have been arguing for every person having 100% free will case.

The reason is quite simple, that when free will is called " FREE

will " it cannot be in percentages. But i have seen some discussions

where people talk of a percentaged free will.

>

> What i can agree to is the fact that we are not free from the

consequences of our past actions. This is where our karma comes in.

But this can never prove the fact that we can exercise our free

will. Past actions are always asserting themselves on our current

decisions, but can it prove that we are basically free souls. The

souls that are full of love, joy and creativity. Jyotish definitely

gives us enough clues on the consequneces of our past actions. The

various techniques such as dasas and progressions are nothing but

projections of the same.

>

> I have read that people talk of a malefic rahu dasa, and a bad

sani dasa etc.

> Let me clear the point here, because even i am in rahu dasa since

last 10 years. yes rahu dasa has been a roller coaster ride, but

then i also became spiritual. The setbacks made me " go INWARD " which

i wouldnot have done had everything been a jolly good ride.

> Rahu and sani are planets that force us to look inward, look at

our souls, the desires of the soul. They make us ponder at the

meaning of life, at our frailities, and our greatness. Every soul is

a spark of divine life, and all our experiences are nothing but the

various manifestations of the divine play. They make us remember

more of who we are really.

> Rahu and saturn make us so restricted, that we truly learn what

freedom is.

> For instance i lived for a year at my tyrannical uncle's place,

and i was very much limited in all my actions. I couldnot take

decisions that made me happy. Every moment was a struggle. I worked

in a newspaper company, and people abused and shouted at me.

> I never feel bad about them, i feel that those restrictive

conditons, made me realise that we all long for freedom. And we are

basically experiencing restriction, to learn that we are free.

> We experience misery to feel that we are " JOY "

> We experience sadness to learn that we are " Happiness "

> We experience crippling conditions to learn that we

are " Invincibles "

> We experience helplessness to learn that we are " Creative

machines " .

>

> All these are attributes of soul, and by experiencing what it is

not, it remembers more of what it IS, I can know what is day, when i

see the night. I can appreciate Sweetness, only when i have tasted

the bitter.

> That is why we are in earth, the plane of dualities.

> best wishes

> partha

>

>

> Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> Dear Partha:

>

> This is another reason why I'm excited about this 'meditation' &

Astrology group, because without powerful emphasis on remedial

measures, the whole purpose of Astrology is lost.

>

> I know so many people who are studying Jyotish, but only remaining

in the theoretical, cerebral part.

>

> And yes free will is a strong, vital, indespensible part of life.

>

> But, free will isn't a contradiction in Jyotish/Astrology, free

will is a part of it.

>

> In the same way that 'pre-determinism' and causality is a part of

life, being dynamic, asserting oneself, or exercising one's will, to

evolve is too.!

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

> Mark Kincaid

>

>

>

>

>

> partha sarathy <partvinu5>

> Transcend-Meditation

> Mon, 11 Oct 2004 20:34:04 -0700 (PDT)

> Transcend-Meditation

> Re: [Transcend-Meditation] 2-Partha:, > Re: Jupiter &

Saturn, > Mark Kincaid...10/11

>

>

>

>

> Dear Mark

>

> Thank you for the kind words. Without proper sadhana and yoga, the

understanding of metaphysical aspects of universe remains

inaccessible.

>

> I did jyotish for 9 years, and i do JYOTISH now after the last

years spiritual transformation.

> I started meditating last year, went for past life regression, saw

some 200 past lives, i read books like Conversations with GOd. So

many things have become clear now. For me Jyotish is now a tool to

assess the potentialities of a person and the way he can progress in

life. Free will very much comes into picture, and i see people

having the same chart as me never ever going into meditation of even

astrology. I guess free will is something which is not pre

determined and is one of the black holes for Jyotish

> best wishes

> partha

>

>

> Mark Kincaid <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

>

> Dear Partha:

>

> Yes, I think you're right. When I, too learned to look at nature

or spirituality, in terms of both of these Jupiter &

Saturn 'qualities', I started getting a long much better in life...

>

> This is one of so many reasons why I think Jyotish is a wonderful

compliment to meditation and yoga for example.

>

> I've done the charts of so many people, 'on the path', who not

understanding either the Jupiter's or Saturn's in their

charts,...they still continued to suffer, in ways....

>

> that their meditation, or sadhana, should have cancelled out...

>

> Now I know that Jyotish is a wonderful compliment to meditation....

>

>

> Sincerely,

>

>

>

> Mark Kincaid

>

>

>

> ps...thanks for your thoughts and I look forward to many more

wonderful discussions, together...

>

>

>

>

>

>

>

>