Fw: Tarabilda in discussion with vedists and anthroposophists

July 8, 2004

Hello Everyone,

The link http://www.dimensional.com/~risaacs/l12.htm that somebody recommended had posted is very interesting: a discussion between vedists and anthroposophists about Christianity, Vedism, planets and the veda.

Greetings Anne

CHAPTER TWELVE:

MULITIDISCIPLINARY EDUCATION

AND

THE ART OF MULTI-DIMENSIONAL LIVING

EDWARD TARABILDA: Life has eight primal directions -- the seven planets plus the North Node of the Moon each relate to a particular direction:

Planet Direction

Sun East

Moon Northwest

Mars South

Mercury North

Jupiter Northeast

Venus Southeast

Saturn West

North Node Southwest

These directions translate into eight fields of living, or eight directions of our life.

SCIENTIFIC MATERIALIST: The connection between the eight directions and your eight fields of living is not clear.

EDWARD TARABILDA: Yes, I'll have to leave it to you to contemplate. However, I would like to mention something essential which I think you'll find much more apparent. All knowledge can be seen from three perspectives:

1. Knower

2. Known

3. Process of knowing, which connects the knower and the known

These three basic perspectives are vital to all of philosophy, psychology, theology and education. They can also be stated as the triad of spirit, soul and body; or the triad of mind, heart and will.

Each aspect of the triad has an eight-fold nature and gives rise to a separate discipline of knowledge. So three times eight equals twenty-four archetypal disciplines. These twenty-four disciplines are the basis of multi-disciplinary education.

PSYCHOLOGIST: What are the eight aspects of the knower?

EDWARD TARABILDA: We'll begin with seven. There's a beautiful seven-fold model of the personality which different sages in the East and West have apparently cognized independently. It is confirmed by the Astrology of the Eight Fields of Living:

Planet Level or Faculty of Knower

Saturn Body

Venus Senses

Jupiter Mind (manas)

Mercury Intellect (buddhi)

Mars Will

Moon Heart

Sun Integrative faculty or "ego" (ahamkara)

PSYCHOLOGIST: Please explain.

EDWARD TARABILDA: Saturn governs the physical body. This level of life is represented by the mineral kingdom.

Venus governs the senses and vital body, which connect the deeper aspects of the personality with the physical body and surroundings. This level of life is represented by the plant kingdom.

Jupiter governs the emotional or astral body, what Vedic teachers call manas, which is loosely translated as "mind". It's just a part of what we ordinarily call "mind" -- that aspect of personality which forms simple concepts and has likes and dislikes. This level of life is represented by the animal kingdom. Unlike plants, animals have feeling and an inner life.

Mercury governs the intellectual or egoic body. A sense of self-consciousness and the use of language are the two capabilities that separate humans from animals, although the higher animals may have them to a very limited degree.

Mars governs the will and higher creative sense. The Moon governs the heart and higher emotional capacity, one's awareness of the collective subconscious and higher intuition. The Sun governs the integrative factor, or ahamkara, which is sometimes translated as "ego". In a sense it's just the opposite of the colloquial term "ego" as in "egotism". When the integrative factor is fully developed, one identifies with the totality of cosmic existence, not the puny little body-mind vehicle associated with egotism.

PSYCHOLOGIST: And the eighth aspect of the knower?

EDWARD TARABILDA: As you might guess, it is related to the nodes of the Moon. They govern unorthodox, iconoclastic, or rebellious use of any one of the other seven faculties.

QUANTUM PHYSICIST: What are the eight disciplines related to the process of knowing?

EDWARD TARABILDA: We have already discussed them. They are the Eight Great Paths to God © -- the seven yogas plus tantra.

QUANTUM PHYSICIST: What are the eight disciplines related to the object of knowledge and the will?

EDWARD TARABILDA: The will relates to worldly action. It defines eight external disciplines of knowledge which maintain structure and harmony in society. Here is a brief view of these external disciplines and their ruling planets:

1. Saturn

Medicine and all forms of health-care, including Ayurveda, the ancient Indian science of health and longevity. Includes diet, exercise, massage and other body-work.

Material science, especially the inorganic sciences, such as physics, chemistry and geology, and the rigorous empirical logic of all the hard sciences.

Technical disciplines, such as construction, engineering and computer science.

2. Venus

Sthapatya Veda, the science of ordering one's immediate environment so that energy flows harmoniously through it. Includes art, gardening, interior design, and city planning. Also includes the aesthetic side of architecture; the mechanical side is Saturnine.

Aesthetics -- the fine arts, including music as commonly used for entertainment, but not music as primal sound.

The observational aspect of material science is Venusian, but the rigorous attention to detail and cold, dry logic are purely Saturnine. Since Venus rules living systems, it governs the subject matter of the organic sciences, such as biology, botany, zoology and ecology.

3. Jupiter

Religion, sacred ritual (Kalpa) and sacred literature.

Celebrations of all kinds, including public and private assemblies, from family reunions to church services, graduations, political inaugurations, and ceremonies at the beginning and end of sporting events.

The social sciences (psychology, sociology, anthropology, etc.)

Business and finance

4. Mercury

Jyotish, the science of the stars, which organizes all knowledge.

Mathematics

Language

Intellectual recreations like chess, cross-word puzzles, scrabble and most board games.

5. Mars

Primal sound -- the inner aspect of mantra and music (Gandharva Veda), which subtly harm society or protect it from harm.

Military science (Dhanur Veda) and police science, which protect society physically.

Competitive sports

6. Moon

Myth and Archetype, which nourish the heart and enhance attunement to the collective unconscious. The Sanskrit literature of Puranas (ancient histories of the gods) and Itihasas (ancient history of humans and gods in human form -- the epics of the Ramayana and Mahabharata).

Epic literature and epics films, such as Star Wars.

Motherhood and child care.

7. Sun

The Science of Community, including political science, public administration, and jurisprudence.

Leadership and fatherhood.

8. Nodes of the Moon

Unorthodox and rebellious lifestyles, such as the beatniks of the 50's, hippies of 60's and 70's.

Unorthodox, iconoclastic or rebelious approaches to the other external disciplines.

PHILOSOPHY PROFESSOR: Are all the academic disciplines related to the object of knowledge, not the knower or process of knowing?

EDWARD TARABILDA: Yes, as long as they exclude subjectivity. It's a lot easier to base grades on test scores than on students' inner state of mind. An intellectual psychopath might outscore a simple, loving saint in all the standard tests of aptitude and achievement. But the saint is living a far higher state of knowledge, and of far greater benefit to humanity by his mere presence in the world.

PSYCHOLOGIST: So an object-oriented educational system can produce freaks like the Unabomber, Theodore Kaczynski, but an holistic system would soften the rough edges on such a personality?

EDWARD TARABILDA: Exactly. Now let's put all the archetypal disciplines together. This is how the seven planets and the nodes of the Moon combine with the triad of experience to form a matrix of twenty-four interdisciplinary studies:

Planet Faculty of Knower Process of Knowing Known

Saturn Body Empirical logic Physical science, medicine

Venus Senses Sensory experience Fine arts, architecture, ...

Jupiter Mind (manas) Desire, visual symbols Ritual, celebration, psych.

Mercury Intellect (buddhi) Verbal thought, discrimination Math, astrology, language

Mars Will Creative impulse, adventure Primal sound, defense, ...

Moon Heart Compassion, mass subconsc. Myth, epic, archetype, ...

Sun Integrative faculty Wholeness, total awareness Community, leadership, ...

Nodes Unorthodox use of Unorthodox thinking, feeling, Unorthodox applications

other faculties or willing

We only have room to show a few of the many possible examples in the fourth column, but I think you get the picture. This is the theoretical side of interdisciplinary studies in a nutshell. The experiential side has to be discovered in consciousness, but a careful consideration of these principles can facilitate that.

PHILOSOPHY PROFESSOR: I've seen many attempts at holistic theories of knowledge and education, but this one seems very unique and comprehensive. Western education has been heavily biased toward the known, especially since the scientific revolution.

We've been obsessed with the object of knowledge, almost to the exclusion of the knower and process of knowing.

EDWARD TARABILDA: Well said.

PHILOSOPHY PROFESSOR: It seems that almost nobody is happy with education these days. Today's paper (7/12/96) had an article saying that college dropout rates are at an all-time high -- 26% after Freshman year. How do you address that problem?

EDWARD TARABILDA: Many people point to the high cost of college as the culprit, but that's a secondary cause. I sympathize totally with young people trying to make sense of a totally disjointed, object-oriented educational system that gives only lip-service to spiritual, ethical and emotional values. It's so dry, impersonal, and de-humanizing that even the survivors graduate with psychic scars, conditioned to devalue their own refined emotions, intuitions and spiritual inclinations. They've been taught to think the inner life is unimportant and illogical, and therefore less "real" than the hard facts of science.

PHILOSOPHY PROFESSOR: What's your answer?

EDWARD TARABILDA: These twenty-four disciplines are a checklist to see that education is balanced and holistic. Modern education reflects the prevailing bias toward Saturnine, object-oriented thinking. We offer this matrix to give a framework for interdisciplinary studies, a map to guide students and teachers through the educational jungle.

PHILOSOPHY PROFESSOR: The social legacy of science and technology is material comfort with cultural chaos. Oddly enough, the general public is abandoning scientific thinking at the slightest excuse. The cover story of the current issue of "Newsweek" is the mass obsession with the paranormal, often the flakiest claims of paranormal phenomena. It's like the spiritism wave that hit the U.S. in the late 1800's -- sensational reporting of a few isolated events invited a host of dilletantes and charlatans. Although I see some healthy trends in alternative medicine and the search for new paradigms, I am concerned that millions of "New Agers" are channeling, chasing UFO's, and entrusting their lives to self-proclaimed psychics. Why do westerners, educated in the use of reason, seem so quick to abandon it?

EDWARD TARABILDA: Because they only learn a narrow form of reasoning in school, a mechanical Saturnine type of reason based on material evidence. They learn to accept science as the great authority, but they don't learn to apply scientific observation and reasoning to their inner life, or to question the values they learn from society, especially the mass media. The external, physical science they do learn doesn't answer the big questions of human purpose and happiness, either in theory or practice.

SCIENTIFIC MATERIALIST: Religions have been touting those ideas for millennia. It was only the scientific revolution that broke the tyranny of the church and all its superstition.

EDWARD TARABILDA: True, but that was a centralized, authoritative religion corrupted by political power and wedded to a single world-view expressed in papal decree. We're promoting decentralized, free-choice education in an inter-disciplinary, multi-disciplinary, and trans-disciplinary paradigm no religion has ever offered. It respects individual religious choices without the limitations of culture and belief system. In fact, it affirms the validity of different philosophies and ways of thinking which have always been thought to be diametrically opposed and irreconcilable.

ANTHROPOSOPHIST: It's amazing how well the triad of knower, process of knowing and known fits your primal ordering of the planets!

EDWARD TARABILDA: I'll leave it to you ponder why.

TM MEDITATOR: How does this paradigm of interdisciplinary studies apply to Vedic knowledge?

EDWARD TARABILDA: The first six disciplines which relate to the knower are the six darshanas, or six systems of Indian philosophy. The Sanskrit word "darshana" implies seeing. The implication is that these are not just systems of philosophical abstraction, but fundamentally different approaches to human experience.

From the point of view of methodology, the first three darshanas are more objective, the second three more subjective:

1. Nyaya -- explores the objective nature of the process of knowing.

2. Vaisheshika -- explores the objective nature of the object of knowledge.

3. Sankhya -- explores the objective nature of the knower.

4. Yoga -- explores the subjective nature of the knower

5. Karma Mimamsa -- explores the subjective nature of the object of knowledge. 6. Purva Mimamsa (Vedanta) -- explores the subjective nature of the process of

knowing.

From the vantage point of the goal, rather than the methodology, we can still think of the first three systems as objective and the last three as subjective. However, the subject matter differs from the previous outlook in four of the six systems:

1. Nyaya -- objectively reveals the known.

2. Vaisheshika -- objectively reveals the process of knowing.

3. Sankhya -- objectively reveals the knower (same as above).

4. Yoga -- subjectively reveals the knower (same as above).

5. Karma Mimamsa -- subjectively reveals the process of knowing.

6. Purva Mimansa (Vedanta) -- subjectively reveals the known in its totality.

The integration of these six disciplines creates a seventh possible discipline. It is not really a separate discipline, as much as an integration of the other six, just as Integral Yoga is not a separate yoga so much as an integration of the other six yogas.

THEOSOPHIST: But as a mode of practice, is it really separate and distinct?

EDWARD TARABILDA: Of course. That is why we treat it separately. But they haven't done this so clearly in the ancient Indian philosophic tradition. There is no mention of a seventh darshana as a mode of practice, but there should be. To put it differently, there is also a solar method of philosophic inquiry, and that method is best thought of as an integral method.

THEOSOPHIST: So a different planet relates to each system of Indian philosophy, just as with the yogas?

EDWARD TARABILDA: Yes:

Planet Darshana Yoga

Saturn Nyaya Hatha

Venus Vaisheshika Raja

Jupiter Sankhya Karma

Mercury Yoga Gyana

Mars Karma Mimamsa Laya or Kundalini

Moon Vedanta Bhakti

Sun Integral Darshana Integral Yoga

PSYCHOLOGIST: So if a person has Saturn governing his spiritual nature, then his strength and style of thinking relate to Nyaya philosophy?

EDWARD TARABILDA: Exactly. Saturn spiritual beings have the strength of logical, mechanical thinking. It even helps define their yogic style of functioning.

QUANTUM PHYSICIST: I think of Vedanta as relating to Gyana Yoga, not Bhakti Yoga and the Moon!

EDWARD TARABILDA: Vedanta relates to Gyana, or pure knowledge, not Gyana Yoga, the path of intellect. The essence of Yoga Darshana is the question, "Who am I?" It requires questioning one's most fundamental beliefs. For gyanis blind faith is an impediment, not an aid. Vedanta requires belief until one is aware of one's true nature. Nevertheless, since the darshanas are intellectual disciplines, it stands to reason that the highest intellectual discipline, Vedanta, will have a strong relationship to both applied Gyana Yoga and pure gyana, or pure knowledge.

We must distinguish the knowledge of Vedanta from the use of Vedanta as a method. As a method, a spiritual practice, it is most suitable for bhaktis. As knowledge, it is suitable to anyone, particularly gyanis.

Here's our multi-disciplinary matrix using Sanskrit terms:

Planet Knower Process of Knowing Known

Saturn Nyaya Hatha Yoga Ayurveda, etc.

Venus Vaisheshika Raja Yoga Sthapatya, etc.

Jupiter Sankhya Karma Yoga Kalpa, etc.

Mercury Yoga Gyana Yoga Jyotish, etc.

Mars Karma Mimamsa Laya Yoga Gandharva, etc.

Moon Vedanta Bhakti Yoga Myth, etc.

Sun Integral Philosophy Surya Yoga Community, etc.

Any questions?

PSYCHOLOGIST: I can see how even the external disciplines relate to their respective yogas and systems of philosophy. It is fascinating! For example, Saturn, as part of its spiritual and intellectual nature, will be drawn to a study of the physical body, or Ayurveda. Mercury will be drawn to the study of Jyotish. That's why you say that a true science of the stars is an extension of Gyana Yoga! The Sun governs the external discipline where one can integrate everything -- community development! The Moon governs the discipline which nourishes others most deeply -- mythology and story-telling. Mars governs protecting people, whether through physical means like the military, or subtler means like primal sound. Jupiter governs ritual, and Venus the harmonization of energy. It all fits so perfectly!

EDWARD TARABILDA: You have had a real "aha" experience. I wish more people could have your experience.

PSYCHOLOGIST: Are you suggesting that these are the archetypal disciplines which create a fully functioning human being?

EDWARD TARABILDA: Yes.

PSYCHOLOGIST: How far we are from fulfilling this role! Religion and spiritual practice cannot be taught in public schools, except in the abstract, as in sociology or anthropology. Only nerds study philosophy today. It is considered too dry, abstract, and impractical. And most of the external disciplines you talk about are not taken by most students. One has to study outside the formal school environment to get any knowledge in most of these disciplines.

EDWARD TARABILDA: Sad, but true.

May I now point to something very beautiful about these twenty-four disciplines and their relationship to Christ?

CATHOLIC PRIEST: That will certainly be interesting, to say the least.

EDWARD TARABILDA: These twenty-four disciplines represent the essential structure of the old law, as it was called in the Christian scriptures. The new law, which Christ brought, is the fulfillment of the old law.

CATHOLIC PRIEST: In what way?

EDWARD TARABILDA: First, we must remember that Christ said he came not to change the old law, but to fulfill it. I feel that the old law He was referring to was not just the Old Testament, but great scriptures of all traditions, including the Veda. Those who want to dismiss the Veda, the Torah and other expressions of the old law are not upholding Christ's work. If you don't know what the old law is, how can you know if and how Christ fulfilled it?

CATHOLIC PRIEST: The scriptures of all the different religions are so different. As a Christian, I like the key role you give to Christ, but I don't see how you can lump all the old scriptures together as one universal "old law". Sure, they all point to some sort of God, but there are vast differences in their so-called myths, as well as their morals, practical guidelines, and underlying views of life.

EDWARD TARABILDA: True, and there are good reasons for the differences among the world's scriptures. However, if you recall our three steps of spiritual development -- moral training, spiritual practice, and direct experience of divinity -- you'll see that the differences are greatest on the outermost level, of moral or ethical development, and least on the innermost level, of direct experience of divinity. Whether you read about St. Paul's conversion on the road to Damascus or the inner transformations of countless Hindu, Buddhist, or Sufi saints, there's always a common theme of expansion, upliftment, timelessness, light, bliss, and transcendence. God, Infinite Intelligence, or whatever you want to call the Higher Power, just takes over.

CATHOLIC PRIEST: Then why do the various world scriptures have such different views on morality, politics, and the outer side of life?

EDWARD TARABILDA: The outer side of life changes the most. Although certain broad moral precepts, such as respecting others' rights, are universal or nearly universal, detailed guidelines for day-to-day living must vary from time to time and culture to culture. Just as the high fat, high meat diet that suits the Inuit (Eskimos) in Alaska is not healthy for you or me, the highly specific moral, political, and lifestyle guidelines of the scriptures were only meant for a specific time, place, and culture. When the God of the Old Testament told David and Solomon to slay all the uncircumcised, and even wipe out all living creatures in their towns, that certainly was not a universal formula!

CATHOLIC PRIEST: What about the different so-called "myths" of scripture, which account for creation of the world, origin and growth of humankind, etc.?

EDWARD TARABILDA: If we took the time to read them from an occult perspective, we would find they have far more in common than is generally recognized. But that's way beyond our scope here.

CATHOLIC PRIEST: How did Christ fulfill the old law?

EDWARD TARABILDA: I gave a twenty-two lesson audio tape course on this subject. This is available through The New U, but I can at least give a brief summary of the conclusions of that course.

Christ fulfilled the seven disciplines of the mind through the nine beatitudes from the Sermon on the Mount.

CATHOLIC PRIEST: Why nine beatitudes representing the new law for seven disciplines related to the old law?

EDWARD TARABILDA: The answer is complex, but if you read Rudolph Steiner's book "Theosophy", you will find that the seven sheaths of man can also be described in a ninefold way. The beatitudes fulfill both the ninefold nature and the seven-fold nature of the knower.

The seven steps of Christ's passion fulfill the seven yogas. And the seven miracles of Christ fulfill the seven external disciplines.

We can show these twenty-one key aspects of Christ's mission with a matrix similar to the one we used to outline multi-disciplinary education:

Mind (knower) Heart (process of knowing) Will (object of knowledge)

9 beatitudes/ 7 steps of Christ's passion 7 miracles

7 or 9 sheaths

Each of these twenty-one aspects of Christ's mission is discussed at length in the course I mentioned. I am very proud of this course because I think it breaks down many of the artificial barriers between East and West. It shows that the old law and the new law are opposite sides of the same coin. One must understand both laws to understand individual and world evolution, and to ensure that one's practices are not one-sided in either direction.

PSYCHOLOGIST: Is there an eighth aspect of Christ's teaching, corresponding to the nodes of the Moon?

EDWARD TARABILDA: The eighth is always there. However, since the nodes reflect a shadowy, unconventional use of one or more of the other seven planetary energies, it is not always necessary to mention them as an eighth archetype. Likewise, we could talk of nine archetypes instead of eight. The only difference is whether we treat the two nodes separately or together.

In the same vein, we can talk of twenty-one archetypal disciplines (three times seven), or twenty-four (three times eight). We could even say twenty-seven (three times nine), but

that is an unnecessary complication.

VEDIC PUNDIT: Back to your view of Christ's mission, it sounds like a form of one-upmanship to me. Christ is the great hero who saves the old law. Why not the reverse -- the Veda saves a weakened Christianity?

ANTHROPOSOPHIST: If you read Rudolph Steiner, you might gain a clear perspective on this subject.

VEDIC PUNDIT: I want an answer from Ed, not Steiner.

EDWARD TARABILDA: Although I am persuaded by what Steiner says on this subject, I also try to represent the new and present Veda, which has evolved since the time of the old Veda. The old law requires constant re-interpretation for changing times in both East and West.

The old Veda was cognized at a time when clairvoyance was highly developed, but reason and sensory experience were less developed. The new Veda, like the new Christianity, requires less reliance on the clairvoyant visions of ancient seers, and more reliance on reason, as well as techniques of freeing the awareness from their entrapment in the snare of the senses. In ancient Vedic times the material world appeared illusory, so they called it "maya", the cosmic illusion. Now it appears so real that we are easily seduced into thinking it is the only reality. A different approach to spiritual development is therefore warranted in our age, one that sees matter as the outer expression of spirit and soul, not something to be denied as pure illusion.

VEDIC PUNDIT: I am suspicious of a thinly veiled fundamentalism in the special role you hold for Christ. He was only one of many avatars and saints to grace the world.

EDWARD TARABILDA: I cannot agree with those who dismiss Christ as just another sage, one among many great luminaries. According to Steiner and other adepts that I respect, Christ's entry into world evolution was a unique, one-time redemptive event which will positively affect humanity until the end of its days. The old law, including Greek, Egyptian, Persian, Judaic, Vedic and even Chinese law, laid the foundation for Christ's mission, which continues to unfold.

When people fail to understand what Christ came to fulfill, they begin to lose a grip on the real significance of Christ's life and teaching. Their Christianity becomes hollow. Don't dismiss eastern traditions as un-Christian or the work of the devil, because in driving this wedge between East and West, you are undermining the foundation of Christianity itself. True Christianity is the old law and the new law together in fulfillment, and allows for vastly different expressions in different times and cultures.

VEDIC PUNDIT: So I'm not a truly spiritual person if I don't believe Christ was the key figure in history, without whom we'd all be hopelessly lost?

EDWARD TARABILDA: No, there have been thousands of enlightened persons who did not have this view of Christ. Again, it's not something that I ask you to accept on faith, but I'm suggesting that a solid understanding of cosmological history and Christ's pivotal role in it are a great asset in the spiritual pursuit, no matter what your religious inclination and personal practice. Let us add that belief in Christ as one's personal savior -- the cornerstone of faith for most Christians -- is very different from awareness of the cosmic Christ, which can unfold in people who do not label themselves as Christian.

My purpose here was to show the great value of both the old and the new law, not to diminish either. I have already indicated that I thought Sri Aurobindo, a great Vedic sage who never wrote of Christ, understood Christ better than all but a few Christians.

VEDIC PUNDIT: Okay, I feel better about what you are saying.

EDWARD TARABILDA: Before we close for today let me suggest another perspective on the main subject of this dialogue. Please recognize, for reasons which extend to the very essence of the spiritual life, that we can have an alternative rendering of the twenty-four disciplines:

Knower Process of Knowing Known

Eight spiritual paths Eight styles of thinking Eight external or applied disciplines

The eight spiritual paths and the eight external disciplines function in duality. Only pure knowledge is universal and non-dual in its essential nature. It is pure spirit. The sixth system of Indian Philosophy, Vedanta, claims this status, although it is certainly a fact that experiencing or living this truth is a process to be engaged in.

A materialistic culture such as our own focuses almost entirely on the applied disciplines, with at best a superficial attention to the spiritual and intellectual disciplines.

Let us close for today.

July 8, 2004

Thank you Anne for posting these great tables and link below, cheers, Morgana

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Hagazussa

Thursday, July 08, 2004 2:11 AM