Patrice: Navamsha chart

July 2, 2004

was: Re: Moon in Scorpio

Hi Patrice,

I also thank you for making an effort in interpreting my chart :-)

However I have some remarks and questions.

Patrice wrote:

> Anne, your Scorpio Moon has cancellation of debiltation

> (neechabhanga) due to Mars being exalted.

Anne replies:

Mars is 11 degrees capricorn or Shravana, which is dsposited by the

moon. How can mars be exalted in a sign that is disposited by the

moon? Is mars exalted by capricorn (mars stands n capricorn in my

vedic chart but in aquarius is my western chart), that would make

sense, but then you mix up the nakshatras and the western signs.

Patrice wrote:

>Also Venus, lord of exaltation rashi is in Kendra from the

>dispositor.

Anne replies:

My Shukra (venus) is in Swati (7 degrees Libra from vedic chart) in

the seventh house, the House of Marriage. Swati is disposited by

Rahu. Venus in 7 and libra is exaltation, that I understand, however

the dispositor is Rahu, which is in the 11th house in Purva Bhadra,

also a good placement for Rahu.

Patrice wrote:

> This gives, in my experience, a different Moon from a debilitated

>(neecha) Moon or a Moon without this at all. This Mars is also in

> Moon's nakshatra. Your Moon would have a very strong Mars energy

> to it and that Mars exalted in 8H, again natural house for

> Scorpio.

Anne replies:

I would say a lot of passionate emotions, very loving but also high

tempered....

Patrice wrote:

> Deep interest in pyschology perhaps and definitely also all these

>more occult teachings. Jyeshtha's deity is Indra, and Mercury

>ruler. Indra is a great mighty warrior and hero. Your Moon also is

>in Mercury's star and Mercury in 5H.

That I understand. Yes I have a very active emotional life :-)

Patrice wrote:

> Also you have Moon on 1H in Navamsa chart. And this is in exchange

>(Parivartana) with Saturn. This parivartana also occurs in your

>chart for work/great success' (Dashamsha chart) again with Saturn,

>and in that chart your Moon is in your 5H.

Anne replies:

Yes I have seen my navamsha chart. I am not familiar with navamsha

charts, and I see that they are very fictional. (excuse me for te

word) The navamsha chart is called the spouse chart, however I can

see from the position of pluto on that chart that is it placed in

the first degree of aquarius (Danishta). Which means that that so

called 'spouse' has not been born yet or has been deceised allready

a long time before my birth. What is the meaning of such a navamsha

chart (I guess purely theoretical)? I am not even married and I

think I can never marry a person who is allready dead for many

years, or is born when I have the respectable age of 70 years, which

means that I have to wait untill he is 18 years old, and I am 88

years old, if I am still alive then.)

I haven't seen a davamsha chart yet. What kind of chart is that?

Patrice wrote:

> It would be interesting to hear what your experience is with your

>mother, if you feel you can share this. As you have Ketu/Pluto in

>4H in KP chart, you may be very private regarding this. Your mother

>is probably not very traditional at all - is this correct? Rahu is

>sublord of your 4H and this is a strong Rahu.

Anne replies:

Ketu is in Purva Palghuni and and pluto is in Uttara Palghuni.

Lord of Purva Palghuni is venus. I wonder if you can call surya

(sun) the sublord, as it is not on the cusp of 4. No my mother is in

a way non-traditional but in other ways she is. She studied at the

university and is not a traditional housewife, that is correct.

Patrice wrote:

> In KP chart Rahu moves into 10H.

No it is in the 11th house.

Patrice wrote:

> and that Neptune is conjoined with your Moon in 6H.

>This Neptune and Moon conjunction in your 6H also gives a

>sensitivity that you have mentioned before in your earlier posts.

Anne replies:

You mean that they are both in house 6? This is the placement in my

western chart. In my vedic chart they are in house 8. And what do

you mean by conjoined? It is not a conjunction, the distance between

these celestial bodies are 16 degrees. I mostly take 6 degrees

distance maximum for an aspect. Only for aspects between sun and

moon I dare to take 10 degrees, never 16 degrees, that is not a

conjunction, it even overrides a decade (10 degrees).

Patrice wrote:

> 10H has this Moon for sub lord, again looking like you may do some

>kind of psychology type of work.

Anne replies:

You mean the dispositor of Shravana is the moon?

No I am not into psychology.

Patrice wrote:

> Out of time. I hope this is helpful. You had asked me before

>regarding your Jyeshtha Moon and I was never able to return to

>this. Also it's very confusing to try to use the western combined

>with Jyotish. It's so wonderful that you know western and can use

>it as well, you're fortunate, but when doing Jyotish try not to

>combine the two at all.

Yes it is quite complicated isn't it? I understand by practicing,

like we do now, we are learning t step by step. Thanks again for

your effort!

Greetings,

Anne

July 2, 2004

Hi Dear Anne,

Your lagna in a Vedic birth chart, from the time and information that you gave, is Gemini lagna, if I have everything correct (November 11, 1969, 19:20, Arnhem, Netherlands). Using KP ayanamsa, I get 11:24 Gemini, Ardra, this is your 1H. This is the chart that I sent you privately awhile ago.

In what I wrote I was not/and am not referring at all to anything western (other than including using the outer planets Neptune and Pluto while writing you) - I don't know any western astrology, so can't comment on the comparisons you've made.

In Vedic astrology, the planets are exalted in the whole sign, such as Capricorn, that would be the entire house that Capricorn is in. There are degrees of "deep exaltation," such as Mars is in deep exaltation at 28 degrees Capricorn, but the entire sign of Capricorn is exaltation for Mars, as it is with other planets in their own exaltation signs as well.

Also we would say for your chart, "Mars is deposited by Saturn in the sign of Capricorn, in the star or nakshatra lorded or ruled by Moon at 11 degrees Shravana." (Verses saying Mars is deposited by Moon.) It's more confusing when first learning to include the nakshatras, but still so I can be clear here I want to explain that the depositer is the planet who is the ruling the sign, such as Capricorn, Aquarius, etc... not the nakshatra.

Taking Gemini as your ascendant, your Venus is in Libra in the 5H in your chart conjoined with Sun, Jupiter and Mercury. A conjunction in Vedic astrology is when planets are in the same house, doesn't matter how many degrees apart with respect to being viewed as a conjunction. Venus is in Moolatrikona, not exalted in your birth chart, and in Swati as you've written. So, Venus deposits itself, and separately Rahu is the nakshatra lord or "star lord" of Swati.

It may be best to first get a good concept of the signs and their depositors or lords in the Vedic view, before going into too much of the nakshatras as there are 27 and it's more confusing without having a good grasp for the signs first. I think Therese once wrote that is also what she has found best when learning or teaching Vedic. Also she mentioned that it's confusing for someone beginning Vedic when we use KP as the KP system uses the nakshatras and their star lords, in explaning what we see in the chart. I apologize for any confusion I may have given you in this.

I'm not clear on what you've said with respect to Navamsa charts. Also again, with Vedic the outer planets are not traditionally used. Many of us have decided to use them for more clarity or in certain regards, but as far as lording any signs, they do not lord/deposit any sign in Vedic and their use is not "Vedic Astrology." Traditionally we believe that the great sages who cognized Vedic astrology knew of them and chose not to use them. In what you've written I think you may be referring to a western technique, I'm not sure.

The Navamsa chart can be referred to as the "spouse chart" but it is a very important chart to understand the native as well and gives a lot of information beyond the spouse. And again someone might wait to look at that chart or any of the "Varga Charts," of which the Navamsa is one, until understanding Vedic more. Otherwise it can be confusing to some people to combine the two and is more advanced I guess I would say. The Dashamsa chart is another "Varga Chart" to look for specific or more detailed information regarding great success' and work/careers. Some do not use the Varga charts much or at all, and if I were a better astrologer I wouldn't need to either ;-)! I check them for more information for myself and am also learning them.

In the chart for you that I'm using and sent you, Moon and Neptune are in the 6H, Scorpio, with Gemini rising/lagna. Then Rahu would be in 9H in Aquarius.

Thanks for sharing your information on your mother and also sharing that you are not into psychology.

I hope this is more clear.

Kind regards, and Happy Guru Purnima today!

Patrice

_________

was: Re: Moon in ScorpioHi Patrice,I also thank you for making an effort in interpreting my chart :-)However I have some remarks and questions.Patrice wrote:> Anne, your Scorpio Moon has cancellation of debiltation > (neechabhanga) due to Mars being exalted. Anne replies:Mars is 11 degrees capricorn or Shravana, which is dsposited by the moon. How can mars be exalted in a sign that is disposited by the moon? Is mars exalted by capricorn (mars stands n capricorn in my vedic chart but in aquarius is my western chart), that would make sense, but then you mix up the nakshatras and the western signs.Patrice wrote:>Also Venus, lord of exaltation rashi is in Kendra from the >dispositor.Anne replies:My Shukra (venus) is in Swati (7 degrees Libra from vedic chart) in the seventh house, the House of Marriage. Swati is disposited by Rahu. Venus in 7 and libra is exaltation, that I understand, however the dispositor is Rahu, which is in the 11th house in Purva Bhadra, also a good placement for Rahu.Patrice wrote:> This gives, in my experience, a different Moon from a debilitated >(neecha) Moon or a Moon without this at all. This Mars is also in > Moon's nakshatra. Your Moon would have a very strong Mars energy > to it and that Mars exalted in 8H, again natural house for > Scorpio.Anne replies:I would say a lot of passionate emotions, very loving but also high tempered....Patrice wrote:> Deep interest in pyschology perhaps and definitely also all these >more occult teachings. Jyeshtha's deity is Indra, and Mercury >ruler. Indra is a great mighty warrior and hero. Your Moon also is >in Mercury's star and Mercury in 5H.That I understand. Yes I have a very active emotional life :-)Patrice wrote:> Also you have Moon on 1H in Navamsa chart. And this is in exchange >(Parivartana) with Saturn. This parivartana also occurs in your >chart for work/great success' (Dashamsha chart) again with Saturn, >and in that chart your Moon is in your 5H.Anne replies:Yes I have seen my navamsha chart. I am not familiar with navamsha charts, and I see that they are very fictional. (excuse me for te word) The navamsha chart is called the spouse chart, however I can see from the position of pluto on that chart that is it placed in the first degree of aquarius (Danishta). Which means that that so called 'spouse' has not been born yet or has been deceised allready a long time before my birth. What is the meaning of such a navamsha chart (I guess purely theoretical)? I am not even married and I think I can never marry a person who is allready dead for many years, or is born when I have the respectable age of 70 years, which means that I have to wait untill he is 18 years old, and I am 88 years old, if I am still alive then.) I haven't seen a davamsha chart yet. What kind of chart is that?Patrice wrote:> It would be interesting to hear what your experience is with your >mother, if you feel you can share this. As you have Ketu/Pluto in >4H in KP chart, you may be very private regarding this. Your mother >is probably not very traditional at all - is this correct? Rahu is >sublord of your 4H and this is a strong Rahu.Anne replies:Ketu is in Purva Palghuni and and pluto is in Uttara Palghuni. Lord of Purva Palghuni is venus. I wonder if you can call surya (sun) the sublord, as it is not on the cusp of 4. No my mother is in a way non-traditional but in other ways she is. She studied at the university and is not a traditional housewife, that is correct.Patrice wrote:> In KP chart Rahu moves into 10H.No it is in the 11th house.Patrice wrote:> and that Neptune is conjoined with your Moon in 6H.>This Neptune and Moon conjunction in your 6H also gives a >sensitivity that you have mentioned before in your earlier posts.Anne replies:You mean that they are both in house 6? This is the placement in my western chart. In my vedic chart they are in house 8. And what do you mean by conjoined? It is not a conjunction, the distance between these celestial bodies are 16 degrees. I mostly take 6 degrees distance maximum for an aspect. Only for aspects between sun and moon I dare to take 10 degrees, never 16 degrees, that is not a conjunction, it even overrides a decade (10 degrees).Patrice wrote:> 10H has this Moon for sub lord, again looking like you may do some >kind of psychology type of work.Anne replies:You mean the dispositor of Shravana is the moon?No I am not into psychology.Patrice wrote:> Out of time. I hope this is helpful. You had asked me before >regarding your Jyeshtha Moon and I was never able to return to >this. Also it's very confusing to try to use the western combined >with Jyotish. It's so wonderful that you know western and can use >it as well, you're fortunate, but when doing Jyotish try not to >combine the two at all.Yes it is quite complicated isn't it? I understand by practicing, like we do now, we are learning t step by step. Thanks again for your effort!Greetings,Anne

July 2, 2004

Hi Patrice,

Thank you for your answer!

Would you send me the chart again, please. I guess I have another

one than you mentioned. I will look at it and read your comments

again.

Greetings,

Anne

, " Patrice Curry "

<patricecurry@c...> wrote:

> Hi Dear Anne,

>

> Your lagna in a Vedic birth chart, from the time and information

that you gave, is Gemini lagna, if I have everything correct

(November 11, 1969, 19:20, Arnhem, Netherlands). Using KP ayanamsa,

I get 11:24 Gemini, Ardra, this is your 1H. This is the chart that I

sent you privately awhile ago.

>

> In what I wrote I was not/and am not referring at all to anything

western (other than including using the outer planets Neptune and

Pluto while writing you) - I don't know any western astrology, so

can't comment on the comparisons you've made.

>

> In Vedic astrology, the planets are exalted in the whole sign,

such as Capricorn, that would be the entire house that Capricorn is

in. There are degrees of " deep exaltation, " such as Mars is in deep

exaltation at 28 degrees Capricorn, but the entire sign of Capricorn

is exaltation for Mars, as it is with other planets in their own

exaltation signs as well.

>

> Also we would say for your chart, " Mars is deposited by Saturn in

the sign of Capricorn, in the star or nakshatra lorded or ruled by

Moon at 11 degrees Shravana. " (Verses saying Mars is deposited by

Moon.) It's more confusing when first learning to include the

nakshatras, but still so I can be clear here I want to explain that

the depositer is the planet who is the ruling the sign, such as

Capricorn, Aquarius, etc... not the nakshatra.

>

> Taking Gemini as your ascendant, your Venus is in Libra in the 5H

in your chart conjoined with Sun, Jupiter and Mercury. A conjunction

in Vedic astrology is when planets are in the same house, doesn't

matter how many degrees apart with respect to being viewed as a

conjunction. Venus is in Moolatrikona, not exalted in your birth

chart, and in Swati as you've written. So, Venus deposits itself,

and separately Rahu is the nakshatra lord or " star lord " of Swati.

>

> It may be best to first get a good concept of the signs and their

depositors or lords in the Vedic view, before going into too much of

the nakshatras as there are 27 and it's more confusing without

having a good grasp for the signs first. I think Therese once wrote

that is also what she has found best when learning or teaching

Vedic. Also she mentioned that it's confusing for someone beginning

Vedic when we use KP as the KP system uses the nakshatras and their

star lords, in explaning what we see in the chart. I apologize for

any confusion I may have given you in this.

>

> I'm not clear on what you've said with respect to Navamsa charts.

Also again, with Vedic the outer planets are not traditionally used.

Many of us have decided to use them for more clarity or in certain

regards, but as far as lording any signs, they do not lord/deposit

any sign in Vedic and their use is not " Vedic Astrology. "

Traditionally we believe that the great sages who cognized Vedic

astrology knew of them and chose not to use them. In what you've

written I think you may be referring to a western technique, I'm not

sure.

>

> The Navamsa chart can be referred to as the " spouse chart " but it

is a very important chart to understand the native as well and gives

a lot of information beyond the spouse. And again someone might wait

to look at that chart or any of the " Varga Charts, " of which the

Navamsa is one, until understanding Vedic more. Otherwise it can be

confusing to some people to combine the two and is more advanced I

guess I would say. The Dashamsa chart is another " Varga Chart " to

look for specific or more detailed information regarding great

success' and work/careers. Some do not use the Varga charts much or

at all, and if I were a better astrologer I wouldn't need to

either ;-)! I check them for more information for myself and am also

learning them.

>

> In the chart for you that I'm using and sent you, Moon and Neptune

are in the 6H, Scorpio, with Gemini rising/lagna. Then Rahu would be

in 9H in Aquarius.

>

> Thanks for sharing your information on your mother and also

sharing that you are not into psychology.

>

> I hope this is more clear.

> Kind regards, and Happy Guru Purnima today!

> Patrice

> _________

> was: Re: Moon in Scorpio

>

> Hi Patrice,

>

> I also thank you for making an effort in interpreting my chart :-)

> However I have some remarks and questions.

>

> Patrice wrote:

> > Anne, your Scorpio Moon has cancellation of debiltation

> > (neechabhanga) due to Mars being exalted.

>

> Anne replies:

> Mars is 11 degrees capricorn or Shravana, which is dsposited by

the

> moon. How can mars be exalted in a sign that is disposited by the

> moon? Is mars exalted by capricorn (mars stands n capricorn in my

> vedic chart but in aquarius is my western chart), that would make

> sense, but then you mix up the nakshatras and the western signs.

>

> Patrice wrote:

> >Also Venus, lord of exaltation rashi is in Kendra from the

> >dispositor.

>

> Anne replies:

> My Shukra (venus) is in Swati (7 degrees Libra from vedic chart)

in

> the seventh house, the House of Marriage. Swati is disposited by

> Rahu. Venus in 7 and libra is exaltation, that I understand,

however

> the dispositor is Rahu, which is in the 11th house in Purva

Bhadra,

> also a good placement for Rahu.

>

> Patrice wrote:

> > This gives, in my experience, a different Moon from a

debilitated

> >(neecha) Moon or a Moon without this at all. This Mars is also in

> > Moon's nakshatra. Your Moon would have a very strong Mars energy

> > to it and that Mars exalted in 8H, again natural house for

> > Scorpio.

>

> Anne replies:

> I would say a lot of passionate emotions, very loving but also

high

> tempered....

>

> Patrice wrote:

> > Deep interest in pyschology perhaps and definitely also all

these

> >more occult teachings. Jyeshtha's deity is Indra, and Mercury

> >ruler. Indra is a great mighty warrior and hero. Your Moon also

is

> >in Mercury's star and Mercury in 5H.

>

> That I understand. Yes I have a very active emotional life :-)

>

> Patrice wrote:

> > Also you have Moon on 1H in Navamsa chart. And this is in

exchange

> >(Parivartana) with Saturn. This parivartana also occurs in your

> >chart for work/great success' (Dashamsha chart) again with

Saturn,

> >and in that chart your Moon is in your 5H.

>

> Anne replies:

> Yes I have seen my navamsha chart. I am not familiar with navamsha

> charts, and I see that they are very fictional. (excuse me for te

> word) The navamsha chart is called the spouse chart, however I can

> see from the position of pluto on that chart that is it placed in

> the first degree of aquarius (Danishta). Which means that that so

> called 'spouse' has not been born yet or has been deceised

allready

> a long time before my birth. What is the meaning of such a

navamsha

> chart (I guess purely theoretical)? I am not even married and I

> think I can never marry a person who is allready dead for many

> years, or is born when I have the respectable age of 70 years,

which

> means that I have to wait untill he is 18 years old, and I am 88

> years old, if I am still alive then.)

>

> I haven't seen a davamsha chart yet. What kind of chart is that?

>

> Patrice wrote:

> > It would be interesting to hear what your experience is with

your

> >mother, if you feel you can share this. As you have Ketu/Pluto in

> >4H in KP chart, you may be very private regarding this. Your

mother

> >is probably not very traditional at all - is this correct? Rahu

is

> >sublord of your 4H and this is a strong Rahu.

>

> Anne replies:

> Ketu is in Purva Palghuni and and pluto is in Uttara Palghuni.

> Lord of Purva Palghuni is venus. I wonder if you can call surya

> (sun) the sublord, as it is not on the cusp of 4. No my mother is

in

> a way non-traditional but in other ways she is. She studied at the

> university and is not a traditional housewife, that is correct.

>

> Patrice wrote:

> > In KP chart Rahu moves into 10H.

>

> No it is in the 11th house.

>

> Patrice wrote:

> > and that Neptune is conjoined with your Moon in 6H.

> >This Neptune and Moon conjunction in your 6H also gives a

> >sensitivity that you have mentioned before in your earlier posts.

>

> Anne replies:

> You mean that they are both in house 6? This is the placement in

my

> western chart. In my vedic chart they are in house 8. And what do

> you mean by conjoined? It is not a conjunction, the distance

between

> these celestial bodies are 16 degrees. I mostly take 6 degrees

> distance maximum for an aspect. Only for aspects between sun and

> moon I dare to take 10 degrees, never 16 degrees, that is not a

> conjunction, it even overrides a decade (10 degrees).

>

> Patrice wrote:

> > 10H has this Moon for sub lord, again looking like you may do

some

> >kind of psychology type of work.

>

> Anne replies:

> You mean the dispositor of Shravana is the moon?

> No I am not into psychology.

>

> Patrice wrote:

> > Out of time. I hope this is helpful. You had asked me before

> >regarding your Jyeshtha Moon and I was never able to return to

> >this. Also it's very confusing to try to use the western combined

> >with Jyotish. It's so wonderful that you know western and can use

> >it as well, you're fortunate, but when doing Jyotish try not to

> >combine the two at all.

>

> Yes it is quite complicated isn't it? I understand by practicing,

> like we do now, we are learning t step by step. Thanks again for

> your effort!

>

> Greetings,

>

> Anne

July 2, 2004

Hi Patrice,

I can understand what made the confusion.

I had another horoscope from myself: November 11, 1969, 1920, Arnhem

Netherlands, long 51N59, lat 5e55.

Ac: 25 degree Gemini 8.13 Purnavasu

Su: 25 degree Libra 45.33 Vishaka

Moon: 20 degrees Scorpio 16,17 Jyestha

Mars: 11 degrees capricorn 36.30 Shravana

Mercury: 23 degrees Libra 3.25 Vishaka

Jupiter: 29 degrees virgo 59.28 Chitra

Venus: 7 degrees libra 54.28 Swati

Saturn: 10 degrees aries 56.26 Ashwini

Rahu: 24 degrees Aquarius 30.27 Purva Bhadhra

Ketu: 24 degrees Leo 30.27 Purva Palguni

Uranius: 13 degrees virgo 38.48 Hasta

Neptune: 4 degrees Scorpio 39.52 Anuradha

Pluto: 3 degrees virgo 18.44 Uttara Phalguni

In fact I need to substract 23 degrees from the western chart to get

the vedic chart per planet right? So I guess your chart is the right

one, and I'd better throw away the other vedic chart! ok I will

start all over again to interprete that one also together with your

notes, thanks!