2-debra, Mark K....5/28....Adding Files Folder 'Relationships' & 'Charts' to discuss

[Guest guest]

THANKS Mark,

 

and to all, Bettina and Patrice too.

 

I too, missed the info in the L & L and/or didn't recognize it. Soo,

good to have it here and in-depth!!

 

I am excited that there is enough interest to start gathering charts

for information study and sharing. also, charts for relationships

issues. I hope too Mu will feel it ok to study info on chart for

person who is distessed about not having accurate prediction for

marriage.

 

For me as I am assuming for others, creating an area to store this

info on the Group page will make it easier for me to keep track of

the various subjects and their charts being discussed. Easier to

follow and retrieve too.

 

For instances I am going to be rather distracted with uneven

attention to the Group to be able to follow fluently and answer next

few weeks. So. it will be great now that I started an interest to

be able to follow and retreive and study and then be able to share

when I can devote more time and accuracy for comprehension and

application.

 

hey, I also have another interest. Is anyone interested in

relationship charts regarding Twins? I have a pair I would love to

study. They are only 25 minutes apart. With lots of twists and

turns that are similar and then completely different.

 

Ok, I am going to look over the files and start gathering to study.

 

Lots to study what has already been presented too. Will make for

good studying while traveling. I am going to pack my L & L book too

to reread. thanks patrice and Bettina for suggestion.

 

Everyone have a nice weekend, I am going to be busy packing and such.

 

Debra

 

p.s. Bettina, me too. If you would like to share private BC's

I find the house stack up of some members you have mentioned

fascinating and would be good for study. I'll share too!

 

 

 

, Mark Kincaid

<m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

> Let's do it....

>

> I've created a special folder under the Files section...where I'll

add

> special...charts...and discussions related to 'Relationships'....

>

> Just put a special note in the subject line so I can catch what

you'd like

> to include...

>

>

> Mark K.

>

>

>

>

> " dqm51 " <dqm51@s...>

>

> Thu, 27 May 2004 16:41:00 -0000

>

> Re: Astrology and The Gender Divide:

Discourses

> On the State of Our Relationship Art

>

>

> Mu and All

>

> I would like to investigate this furthur. Using charts for

> compatability and marriage issues. To really make it a group

> learning for better knowledge and help.

>

> Just as the plea that came in a few days ago of one wondering why

> the interpetation of marriage prediction had not been fullfilled.

>

> Is there an interest as a group to pick up these charts and study

> them as a whole and then comment back and forth with observation

and

> learning views and tools?

>

> Debra

>

>

>

> , " Bettina " <chiria@n...>

> wrote:

> > Mu ...

> >

> >

> > You make a lot of good points. Since the changes brought about

by

> the

> > feminist movement (and those changes were way overdue), women

(I'm

> talking

> > about American, middle class, and I will say White [because

that's

> mostly

> > whom I know] women for the most part) want and expect the same

> things that

> > men have: good pay, good education, a chance to develop expertise

> in some

> > area .... but (and I believe you alluded to this), they don't

want

> to marry

> > down. They want a guy who makes at least as much money as they

do

> and has

> > at least as much education. A male dr. will marry a female

nurse,

> but how

> > many female drs. will marry male nurses? A few, probably, but

> it's the

> > exception. It's a matter of wanting the best of both worlds.

> This bugs me

> > because there are plenty of nice, good natured guys out there who

> would make

> > wonderful husbands and fathers who don't make in the 6 figures

and

> have a

> > membership for the country club.

> >

> > It's my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that in the Black

> community

> > it's more common for a woman who's employed as, say, a teacher or

> in a

> > management position to be married to a guy who's a physical

> laborer. And

> > why shouldn't it be that way? It can work just as well as the

> reverse.

> >

> > I'd like to add a few things about Indian marriages. There are

> some good

> > points to planned marriages (it they're planned well), but I've

> known many

> > Indian people and been told (by the wives) that for a wife to

> leave her

> > husband for ANY reason, even if he's physically abusive, is

social

> suicide.

> > If the man leaves his wife (or even dies) and she wants to

> remarry, that

> > puts her on the moral level of a prostitute.

> >

> > One other thing (a little off topic, but not entirely): I've

> noticed that

> > men who are widowed when they're young or middle aged (sometimes

> even old)

> > will usually remarry, or at least have a new sweetie, within a

> year or two.

> > When a woman is widowed, it's a long time before she remarries,

if

> ever.

> > Why do you think this is? Do men need wives more than women need

> husbands?

> > Or ... does a man want a generic wife and a women is more aware

of

> the

> > individual traits and characteristics of a man? Do women grieve

> more or

> > differently from men? Do men stuff their grief? Just wondering.

> >

> >

> > ... Bettina

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > MuMin Bey [mumin_bey]

> > Wednesday, May 26, 2004 3:00 PM

> >

> > Astrology and The Gender Divide:

> Discourses

> > On the State of Our Relationship Art

> >

> >

> > Astrology and The Gender Divide: Discourses Upon the State of Our

> > Relationship Art

> >

> > Wed, May 26, 2004

> >

> > Because a great number of people have contacted me in gratitude

for

> > my humble writings on the question of relationship, marriage and

so

> > on, I have decided to share these writings which originally

> appeared

> > on the Pan Astrological Forum. What appears below are a series of

> > thoughts and opinions by me and other respected members of the

PAF.

> > I am hopeful that they spark thought and promote meaningful

> > discussion on the matters discussed therein.

> >

> > Very Interesting Book: " Mismatch " Mu'Min Bey

> > May 24, 2004 15:53 PDT

> >

> > Very Interesting Book: " Mismatch "

> >

> > Hi All,

> >

> > Since there tends to be alot of discussion on relationships both

> > here

> > and elsewhere, I thought to bring this up.

> >

> > It's about a very good book I recently read called Mismatch, by

> > Andrew

> > Hacker, who also wrote Two Nations. Mismatch deals with the

> > increasing

> > gulf between the sexes, of all colors, here in America.

> >

> > Among other things, Hacker suggests that, since 1980, women are

the

> > ones

> >

> > who initiate divorce, with the majority of men wanting to keep

the

> > marriages intact. He also cites the fact that while women have

gone

> > on

> > into higher education, more and more men, again of all colors,

have

> > not.

> >

> > Put this together with increased legal, sexual and social

freedoms

> > of

> > women, and we can see some of the reasons why marriage as an

> > institution

> > continues on a downward spiral.

> >

> > Hacker suggests, based on his research and findings, that the

major

> > reason why things are the way they are right now is because many

> > women

> > are not getting men who meet their standards - and it all doesn't

> > have

> > to do with money alone, although that is a factor. Rather, it has

> > more

> > to do with lack of shared values, which can happen when one goes

on

> > to

> > college and the other does not...about men not having the

> > sensibilities

> > today's women expect, and so on.

> >

> > Interestingly, Hacker also points out in the book that Black

people

> > have

> >

> > seemed to adapt to these conditions...afterall, it is a well

known

> > fact

> > that far more Black women have educational degrees (and all that

> > comes

> > with it) than Black men, on average. He notes that while Black

> > people

> > certainly have problems in this area, when compared to Whites, we

> > have

> > done much better. Hacker also predicts that, if the current

> > situation

> > continues among the White population, they will surpass our

current

> > marriage/divorce/our of wedlock rate (again, keep in mind,

please,

> > we're

> > talking about educated, upwardly mobile WHITE WOMEN, NOT teenage

> > moms of

> > the kind you would see on a Jerry Springer show) - and he

suggests

> > that

> > perhaps the White community could learn something from ours in

this

> > respect.

> >

> > Hacker also deals with a very important, sensitive question -

what

> > does

> > it mean to be a man, today, in 2004? In an age where more and

more

> > people work in the office, not the fields; where more and more

> women

> > are

> >

> > getting the jobs once the sole province of men; and where there

are

> > fewer and fewer outlets for traditional male behavior (hunting,

for

> > example, but there are many others)? Put this together with the

> > skyrocketing sales of Viagra, all the " cops " TV shows, the

Gangsta

> > Rap

> > movement in the Black community, and the all-pervasive Sports

> > Economy

> > here in the USA, it all points to some serious questions that

need

> > answering. Perhaps a major part of the problem, is that men have

> yet

> > to

> > define for themselves, what it means to be a man. From all that I

> > have

> > seen thus far, it appears that it is Women are defining the

> concept.

> >

> > More and more women are waiting longer and longer to have kids,

to

> > marry, and so on...many women never have kids and/or marry at all

> > (and

> > this is something that we as Black folk know very

> well)...meanwhile,

> > history the world over has shown what happens when you an

> > unsocialized,

> > large, virile male population with no sense of mission in life.

> > Again,

> > as Black folks, we know about this in ways that the White

community

> > are

> > only now beginning to realize. In the meantime, Marriage, Family,

> > and by

> > extension, Community and Nation, are falling by the wayside.

> >

> > What I like about Hacker's works is he doesn't take it upon

himself

> > to

> > solve the world's problems - he leaves such things to others.

What

> > he

> > does is lays out the data, brings perspective to it, and leaves

it

> > to

> > the rest of us to hash out. I've only touched on a few points he

> > makes

> > in the book, and I would highly urge everyone reading this to

check

> > it

> > out.

> >

> > Salaam,

> > Mu

> >

> > " Mismatch " - Zam Mu'Min Bey

> > May 25, 2004 13:55 PDT

> >

> > Hi Zam,

> >

> > Without question, women have historically been victim to ruthless

> > beatings and the like. I know about spousal abuse very well,

having

> > witnessed it in various forms over the years, involving female

> loved

> > ones. Your point here has considerable merit.

> >

> > However, since 1980, spousal abuse awareness, coupled with legal

> > action,

> > has reduced things considerably. This is not to say that spousal

> > abuse

> > has disappeared, but it IS to say that it's far more problematic

> for

> > a

> > man to assault a woman today in 2004 than it was 30 years ago.

> >

> > That being said, and hacker points this out in his book, many

women

> > are

> > opting for divorce not because of abuse and/or infidelity, but

> > rather

> > because of what they perceive as the lack of shared experiences

and

> > sensibilities. Because today's climate is more conducive to

woman's

> > independence, more and more women are opting out of marriage for

> > reasons

> > that, if were 50 years ago, our grandmothers would look at these

> > women

> > as if they had a eye in the middle of their foreheads.

> >

> > Furthermore, the stats also clearly points to the fact that most

> > men,

> > who do not initiate divorce, usually start up families

> > elsewhere...in

> > the Black community, for example, it is well known that a man can

> go

> > off

> > and either start up a new family or join an existing one. I think

> > this

> > clearly debunks the notion that men are afraid to commit. Rather,

> > this

> > is about expectations, particularly on the female side of the

> aisle.

> >

> > As Hacker points out in his book, men's needs simply aren't as

> > complex

> > as most women's...I know that's not a PC thing to say, but for

the

> > most

> > part, for people who have lived for any length of time, they know

> > what

> > i'm saying is true, for the most part. Most men want a fairly

> > attractive

> > woman who is nice, fairly good in bed and can cook a decent meal.

> > That

> > she also can burn it up in the corporate boardroom, or go off

into

> a

> > detailed analysis of Beowulf is a plus, but such things simply

> > aren't a

> > priority for most men.

> >

> > Because today's world is one that is much more focused on the

> > college

> > experience, everyone wants to think that they are more

> sophisticated

> > than our forebears...and there is something to be said for this

> > view, in

> > comparison to our forebears. However, what many of us - and I do

> > have to

> > say in this case, women in the main - fail to take into account,

is

> > that

> > human beings are for the most part, the same today we were a

couple

> > thousand years ago.

> >

> > My personal view is that many marriages and relationships fail

> > because

> > of failure to manage expectations - and again I have to direct

this

> > observation in the main toward the female side of the aisle. In

my

> > astrological work, I cannot recount how many female clients

bemoan

> > their

> > inability to find a " suitable mate " ...about the supposed lack of

> > " eligible Black men " ...and about how adamant these women were

about

> > not

> > " settling for less " . Yet they completely dismiss or overlook out

of

> > hand

> > the many men who, while they may not have an MBA and earn 50K-

> > plus/year,

> > or be able to go through the motions at a wine and cheese affair,

> > are

> > good people nonetheless. That I never have heard such concerns

from

> > my

> > male clients tells me that this tends to be more of a female

> concern

> > and

> > issue.

> >

> > When my Mom was dating my Dad, there were tensions; she was a 19

> > year

> > old nurse with a brand new baby boy (me! ), living with her

> > grandmother and trying to figure things out. My Dad was dating

her,

> > and

> > pledged his love for her and her child, although that child was

not

> > biologically his own. There was a considerable age difference

> > between

> > the two - my Dad was 35 at the time. And, because my Mom came

from

> > the

> > North, and my Dad from the South, there was regional differences

> and

> > the

> > like. And, in the mind of my grandmother, my Mom's mom, my Dad

was

> > hardly a catch - afterall, he was dark skinned, bald and had the

> > obligatory gold tooth that so many Black folk from the South had

> > then

> > and now.

> >

> > My Mom sat down with my great-grandmother, and they had a heart

to

> > heart

> > talk, the kind we don't much about these days. My GGM told my Mom

> > the

> > following:

> >

> > " Diane, I understand that Bob may not be all that you want him to

> > be -

> > but he loves you and that child. And you need a father for your

> son.

> > You'll learn to love him " .

> >

> > My Mom and my Dad married on April 1, 1969, in my GGM's living

> room.

> >

> > Make no mistake - my Mom and Dad had their share of problems,

many

> > of

> > which I have recounted here and elsewhere - but if there is one

> > thing I

> > will always admire and respect about my Dad, is that he loved a

> > woman

> > enough to take her and her newborn child into his heart. And like

> my

> > GGM

> > said, my Mom did indeed " learn to love " my Dad.

> >

> > I guess my point is that today, such things would sound

alien...and

> > I

> > guess in many ways they are now. Which is a true shame, because

> alot

> > of

> > relationships and marriages have needlessly fallen apart, in

large

> > part

> > nowadays, because of unrealistic expectations on the part of many

> > " liberated " women.

> >

> > That's my spiel for today.

> >

> > Salaam,

> > Mu

> >

> > RE: " Mismatch " - Zam 2 Mu'Min Bey

> > May 25, 2004 15:02 PDT

> >

> > Hi Zam,

> >

> > I think it would benefit you if you checked out Hacker's book. In

> > it, he

> > discuss the very thing we are discussing right now. Today's

woman's

> > needs are, all things being equal, simply more involved than

> today's

> > man. I'm not one for simplicity, but in this case, all things

being

> > equal, it is.

> >

> > On top of this, instead of alot of women recognizing what's

> > important -

> > a good provider, a good dad, someone who shows a basic level of

> > respect

> > and caring, a decent lover, a committed man, a loyal mate and

lover

> > and

> > so on - many women make demands of men that are in many ways,

> > unrealistic. Further, in many ways, lots of women want men to

> think,

> > act

> > and see the world in the same way that they do.

> >

> > The reality, regardless of the reasons behind it, is that men who

> > divorce almost always start up another family somewhere else -

more

> > often than not, with younger women than their first wives. This,

> > along

> > with the higher incidence of interracial marriage (the highest

> > percentage being White men/Asian women) suggests that these men

> want

> > things that their White female counterparts either can't or won't

> > fulfill...in fact, the major reason cited by White men who marry

> > Asian

> > women is that they are perceived as less

> > aggressive/assertive/hostile/demanding than White women. Sounds

> > familiar, doesn't it? It's the very same thing alot of Black men

> say

> > about Black women. And, in all fairness, while this isn't the PC

> > thing

> > to say, there is some truth behind it all.

> >

> > Men can get nuturing without having to get married, especially

> > nowadays

> > Zam...that so many men do remarry, says that it's about more than

> > just

> > getting mommied. I think the dirty little secret is, that alot of

> > guys

> > do want to settle into a stable situation, but have to contend

with

> > the

> > allure of a " you can have it all " mindset that is so very

pervasive

> > here

> > in America.

> >

> > Like you, I too happen to know several women who have opted to

> > remain

> > alone, some of them for more years than I care to recall. It's

just

> > inconceivable to think of a man voluntarily doing the same

thing. I

> > know

> > I wouldn't, and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't voluntarily do it

> > either.

> > Again, it just shows that the needs of men and women, again, on

> > average,

> > are different. One more simpler, one a bit more complex. Not

better

> > or

> > worse, just different. In any event, the prospect of spending a

> > considerable portion alone without a significant other in your

life

> > is

> > not something I look forward to with any sense of dignity.

Indeed,

> I

> > see

> > that as so very sad.

> >

> > More in a minute.

> >

> > Salaam,

> > Mu

> >

> > Zam- wrote:

> > Hey, I don't know if women are any more complicated then men

> are ,

> > many

> > women

> > just have different needs,and they might be a little more

> > numerous... I

> > think

> > the climate of independence , and the educational opportunities

> that

> > women

> > now have access to means that they aren't forced to remain in a

bad

> > relationships where they feel unfulfilled as they may have in the

> > past,

> > or where a man is

> > there sole source of sustenance and income. Many are opting to

not

> > get

> > married at all.

> >

> > I think also , that as we mature and learn more about ourselves,

> > women

> > have

> > been able to actualize more about themselves and are more

conscious

> > of

> > their

> > emotional needs, which are often neglected by many men in

> > relationships

> > and so

> > these women chose to break camp or remain single rather than get

> > locked

> > into an

> > unfullfilling situation.

> >

> > I think that too often in our communities, many men who leave one

> > women

> > or

> > are divorced by an ex aren't looking to create another family as

> > much as

> > find

> > another women, another safe haven and hook up with a someone who

> > will

> > nurture

> > them. Inevitably the women becomes pregnant and therefore he has

> > another family

> > by default. Not sure if most men deliberately go after those

> > situations

> > more

> > than they just happen by circumstance and need.

> >

> > I still dont believe that most guys prefer marriage to the single

> > life,

> > especially in our community, and im not knocking them....lol

> >

> > " Mismatch " - From a Vedic Perspective... Mu'Min Bey

> > May 25, 2004 15:45 PDT

> >

> > All,

> >

> > While we're going back and forth here, I thought to throw this in

> > the

> > mix...

> >

> > Many of you know that I am a Vedic astrologer, and have spent a

> > considerable amount of time immersed in that culture. Indeed, at

> > least

> > half of my entire clientele are Indian born. And the chief

concern

> > the

> > majority of them have, is marriage.

> >

> > As many of you know, in India, today, arranged marriage is very

> > common.

> > I am often called upon to " hookup " the charts of two people who

> have

> > yet

> > to meet in person; the parents of the bride and groom are usually

> > the

> > ones who do the legwork.

> >

> > After doing this for some years now, and comparing it to what we

> are

> > discussing today, I think there is something to be said for their

> > worldview. Indians, overall, have a totally different

understanding

> > of

> > marriage than the average American does today. The understand

that

> > marriage is more than just about the hubbie and wifey, but rather

> it

> > is

> > a contract that impacts the entire family, community indeed even

> > nation.

> > Because of the great impact this institution makes on everyone,

the

> > extended family in India takes an active and aggressive role in

the

> > potential coming together of two people.

> >

> > Because of the history of India, they have a great knack for

> finding

> > the

> > goodness in everything, no matter how bad. Most Indians, even

> today,

> > understand full well what their options are (or aren't, I should

> > say)

> > and therefore are content to get what they can and move forward.

> > They

> > have no illusions that they " can have it all " and so on. Their

> major

> > concern is in finding a mate who has a spiritual center, is kind,

> > and

> > has a similiar outlook on life.

> >

> > For an Indian - even an Americanized one - the notion of divorce

is

> > horrible. Thus one of the many reasons why so much work is put

into

> > astrological matching two people for marriage. Indians value

above

> > all

> > else, longevity of marriage, even if it comes at the price

> > of " pizzazz " ,

> > etc. Here in America, and increasingly moreso throughout the

> Western

> > world, people divorce at the drop of a hat. Which in turn, has a

> > disasterous effect on our Society as a whole.

> >

> > The one thing I admire most about the Indian view of marriage is

in

> > how

> > they have learned to manage expectations...to accept what can and

> > cannot

> > be done. Of course, this brings in the whole philosophy of Karma

> and

> > the

> > like, which in and of itself is anathema, even to those here in

the

> > USA

> > who consider themselves " spiritual " ...they are far too

Americanized

> > than

> > they are willing to admit and so while they may talk a mean game

> > about

> > spirituality and like, they really ain't buying all that Fate and

> > Karma

> > crap. Here in America, you can be whatever you want to be, no

> matter

> > who

> > don't like it, and no matter who it might impact. The Individual

is

> > everything. Period.

> >

> > So we see that Ego is rampant here in America with regard to

> > marriage

> > (and just about everything else for that matter)...think about

it.

> > All

> > those bridal books, the ones that amount to the size of a phone

> > book...these are clearly for the bride, as is the large majority

of

> > the

> > wedding ceremony. And, we can cite other things from the hubbie's

> > side

> > of the aisle. And we can go on.

> >

> > While Zam continues to argue the notion that a number of women

want

> > men

> > who are emotionally available and so on, again, it seems from the

> > data

> > presented by Hacker and others that that only seems to be only a

> > part of

> > the story. At least as important, is again, the sensibilities,

> > nuances

> > and out and out physical demands many women make of today's men.

> >

> > A good example of this comes in the sexual arena. Much is well

> known

> > about the " minute man " thing, and how much attention this has

> gotten

> > in

> > recent years. And while there is something to be said for men

> > improving

> > in this area so as to be more satisfying to their mates, in all

> > fairness, a good bit can be said about the situation in reverse

as

> > well.

> > True, most men aren't hung like a horse and can screw twice as

> long,

> > but

> > in fairness, as any man can attest to, there are a good number of

> > women

> > out there that, instead of looking like " da bomb " end up actually

> > being

> > " a bomb " in bed. And while it's true that a good number of men

> could

> > stand to improve in the romance department overall, we can also

say

> > with

> > some degree of certainty, that there's a good number of women who

> > ain't

> > likely to be second coming of Vanessa Del Rio, either. The point

> > that

> > I'm making is that if you have unrealistic expectations in this -

> or

> > indeed, any area - you are only setting yourself and your

> > relationship

> > up for a major downfall, because those are ideals to which the

vast

> > majority of people, at any time, anywhere, can only strive, but

> > rarely

> > achieve.

> >

> > I think this is why the Vedic system of astrological

compatibility

> > is in

> > many ways genious, because it evaluates the major areas of

marital

> > life,

> > as well as the overall mental, emotional and physical state of

the

> > couple in ways that even today's Western astrology cannot even

> think

> > about approaching. And the Indian way of life has more focus on

> > one's

> > duty to society - which includes the extended family - than it

does

> > on

> > individual gratification.

> >

> > I think it's something we as astrologers need to think about.

> >

> > Salaam,

> > Mu

> >

> > Zam- wrote:

> > In a message dated 5/25/2004 6:02:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> > mumin- writes:> On top of this, instead of alot of

women

> > recognizing what's

> > important -

> > a good provider, a good dad, someone who shows a basic level of

> > respect

> > and caring, a decent lover, a committed man, a loyal mate and

lover

> > and

> > so on - many women make demands of men that are in many ways,

> > unrealistic. Further, in many ways, lots of women want men to

> think,

> > act

> >

> > and see the world in the same way that they do.

> > Zam : I think that most women do want those very things and not

> much

> > more

> > than that, but they find it difficult to find a man who will be

> > those

> > things, and

> > not controlling, and not physically abusive, and not emotionally

> > distant

> > and

> > not insenstive to her feelings, and definitely not a

> > philanderer......I

> > really

> > dont think that women really are asking that much of men ,

> > especially if

> > you

> > see the types of relatonships that many women remain in simply

> > becasue

> > they

> > want to try and make it work out.It's in womens nature to make a

> man

> > 'become " or

> > to push and prod him to actualize himself, thats a part of the

> > nurturing

> > process, however I odnt think that the average women has these

> > ridiculous demands , or expectations for the most part, even if

> some

> > of them might be

> > difficult

> > to get laong with in some ways.

> >

> > More " Mismatch " & Astrological Thoughts - Zam, All Mu'Min Bey

> > May 26, 2004 13:54 PDT

> >

> > Hi Zam, Everyone,

> >

> > I just wanted to add a few more thoughts on this topic.

> >

> > I think far too much is made of the headcase guys among us - the

> > abusers, the adulterers, the general knuckleheads. Please don't

get

> > me

> > wrong, such beings do continue to exist, but I think if we're all

> > honest

> > with ourselves and each other, we would have to agree that such

> > behavior

> > has sharply declined over the past 25 years.

> >

> > Since " The Burning Bed " , spousal abuse, for example, simply isn't

> > the

> > same animal it was prior to the 1980s. Today, it is far, far more

> > problematic for a man, any man, to assault a woman with impunity.

> > Stringent laws and the enforcement of those laws, make the lives

of

> > men

> > who offend very difficult...and painful. Indeed, as the current

> > ordeal

> > of Kobe Bryant shows, just the accusation of Rape can ruin a man

> for

> > life.

> >

> > In no way am I saying that women still don't get mistreated in

the

> > most

> > brutal of ways...but let me offer an analogy. 50 years ago,

> > automotive

> > safety was virtually nonexistent...there weren't even safety

belts

> > installed in cars back then, not to mention shatter-proof glass,

> > rollover bars and the rest of it. 50 years later, we have cars

made

> > of

> > materials that protect the passengers from the worst of the

impact

> > from

> > an oncoming vehicle...most cars today have airbags standard, in

> some

> > cases on the driver's, passenger's, and sides...and safety belts

> are

> > as

> > strong today as ever. As someone who has walked away from a

number

> > of

> > car accidents, I can personally attest to the vast improvements

of

> > auto

> > safety over the years. Now, does that mean that people cannot

still

> > be

> > killed in car crashes? Certainly not - just making the point that

> > things

> > HAVE improved - markedly.

> >

> > I make the same argument with respect to our current topic on

> women.

> >

> > So I think we kind of do ourselves a disservice to focus on what

I

> > consider to be in many ways red herring topics...and again, as

> > Hacker

> > points out in the book, the issue isn't one of life or death, or

> > financial survival, but again one of the real or perceived lack

of

> > shared sensibilities, values and experiences that today's women

> > expect

> > and demand of their potential mates.

> >

> > It is very important for us to focus the debate here NOT on the

> > working

> > class man or woman - in the main, that class of people simply

don't

> > have

> > these problems. Rather, and I think this is important for us to

> > consider

> > as astrologers (for most of us anyway, because our clients tend

to

> > come

> > from the middle class) - the issue is coming from that growing

> > sector of

> > upwardly mobile, college educated female class. Trying to " mix

and

> > match " the classes in this regard only muddies the waters and

gets

> > us

> > nowhere.

> >

> > I wanted to challenge Zam's notion of men hooking up with women

> > after

> > divorce because they want to be " mommied " - and to do that I'll

> once

> > again use my own parents as prima facia examples.

> >

> > My Dad had a family down in Savannah, GA, and for reasons that

are

> > still

> > not entirely clear, at some point he left them and came up North

to

> > find

> > work, like many Black men did. It was the 1960s, and my Dad did

> > indeed

> > find work as a longshoreman up in Brooklyn, New York City. He was

> > paid

> > very well, getting himself a very nice apartment, and an all

white

> > Cadillac, which, for those of you old to remember, was the

> singature

> > ride to have.

> >

> > Clearly, my Dad had everything to gain and nothing to loose - he

> was

> > a

> > single man, living it up, and could - and did - have access to

just

> > about any woman he wanted out in NYC, without having to marry any

> of

> > them. Why then, did he give all that up just to get attached

again?

> > Especially to a woman who had an infant child?

> >

> > It was clear to see how my Dad got " hooked " - my Mom was a very

> good

> > looking woman back in her day. A zaftig " Redbone " (that's old

Black

> > slang for a light-skinned Black woman) with a wide, beautiful

> smile,

> > my

> > Mom was all tits, thighs and ass - and on top of all that, she

was

> a

> > nurse, which meant she had to wear those white uniforms that

always

> > seem

> > to be so form-fitting on the ladies. My Dad was in Philly

visiting

> > friends and saw my Mom crossing Broad St. one early Spring day in

> > 1969

> > in that nurse's uniform - and damned near crashed his Coup De

> Ville.

> > He

> > pulled over, got her attention, and the rest, as they say, is

> > history.

> >

> > It's quite possible that my Dad could have had his way with my

Mom

> > without having to marry her - at the very least, he could have

had

> > his

> > way with as many other ladies. But he chose to marry her, again,

> > with

> > child - and went on to sire three more kids with the same woman.

> > That

> > does NOT sound like a fear of committment, or the need for

> mommying,

> > Zam. In fact, that falls right in line with what we all know

> accross

> > America - that most men WANT to have a family, WANT to have

> > committment.

> >

> >

> > I think that my Mom and Dad would have had a much better marriage

> > than

> > they did IF they had the proper counseling - and I don't mean the

> > one or

> > two sessions that pass for " pre-marital counseling " that some

> > churches

> > and the like do nowadays, but real, sensitive, ongoing counseling

> > for my

> > parents. It would have helped them better manage and bridge the

age

> > differences, the regional differences, and the sexual

differences.

> > It

> > would have also helped my Dad heal from his own issues growing

up,

> > to

> > understand and appreciate his sexual drive and needs so as not to

> > become

> > a slave to them, and to find better outlets for his awesome

> > mathematical

> > skills and talents other than compulsive gambling. But, given

what

> > they

> > had to work with, and the times in which they lived, I think they

> > did

> > alright - all of their children are considered by most people who

> > know

> > any or all of them to be intelligent, caring human beings. For

all

> > of

> > their problems, they had to have done something right.

> >

> > I agree wholeheartedly with Zam insofar as the " slipping " of

values

> > in

> > our current times are concerned. As more people become more

> involved

> > with " getting theirs " many of the things we all grew up have

fallen

> > by

> > the wayside. Things that held our communities and families

> together.

> >

> > In the hood, one of the fixtures was " Big Momma " , the eldest

Black

> > woman

> > in the area. She was often the nosiest person on the block,

looking

> > into

> > and after everyone's kids...and she was often the " go-to " person

> > whom

> > everyone came to to discuss important matters like marriage and

> > relationship. For those of you who are White and into the New Age

> > thing,

> > you'll recognize the archetype as the " Crone " or Wise Woman. And

> you

> > can

> > find out more about " Big Momma " by checking out the film Soul

Food.

> >

> > Big Momma was around long before there was an Oprah, or an

Iyanla,

> > or a

> > Dr. Phil or Dr. Joyce Brothers...and my Mom's heart to heart,

> > pre-marital talk with our family's " Big Momma " , my great-

> > grandmother,

> > really helped my Mom I think. Unfortunately, not just in the

Black

> > community, but it seems in all communities in America, Big Momma

> > seems

> > to be a thing of the past. That's why it is my contention that we

> as

> > astrologers, female and male alike, have to step in as " Big

Momma " .

> >

> > I have presented these and other topics of discussion because I

> feel

> > they are vitally important for us to consider as astrologers.

Since

> > the

> > Uranus-Pluto conjunction in the sign of Virgo in the 1960s (and

the

> > more

> > recent Uranus-Neptune conjunction in Capricorn in the 1990s -

note

> > how

> > in both cases, the planet Uranus was involved and the Signs

> involved

> > were Feminine), norms and roles, accross the board, have

> > dramatically

> > changed. Without doubt, many things have improved - but many

> > unintended

> > consequences have occured as well. The current " Mismatch " thread

is

> > one

> > such manifestation of those consequences.

> >

> > I belong to at least 20 different astrological forums and

> listservs.

> > To

> > date, NONE of them have grappled with these issues in the way and

> > manner

> > that this one, the Pan Astrological Forum does. Many forums,

> > desgined

> > and built as little more than fertile marketing fields, don't

> > approach

> > anything that doesn't fit into their own little backyards. The

> > owners of

> > those forums are far too busy hawking their latest books and

> > trolling

> > for new clients. And the other forums that exist, usually conduct

> > arid

> > discussions, of interest only to astrologers - and a small

segment

> > of

> > them at that.

> >

> > I wanted to air these issues out and get all of us thinking hard

> > about

> > these things, because people come to us for advice and guidance,

> and

> > I

> > feel that we have to be on top of our game if we're ever going to

> be

> > of

> > any real and meaningful help to our clients. Whether you agree or

> > disagree, my hope is that all of this has made you think.

> >

> > Salaam,

> > Mu

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >