2-debra, Mark K....5/28....Adding Files Folder 'Relationships' & 'Charts' to discuss

[Guest guest]

Let's do it....

 

I've created a special folder under the Files section...where I'll add special...charts...and discussions related to 'Relationships'....

 

Just put a special note in the subject line so I can catch what you'd like to include...

 

 

Mark K.

 

 

 

 

" dqm51 " <dqm51

 

Thu, 27 May 2004 16:41:00 -0000

 

Re: Astrology and The Gender Divide: Discourses On the State of Our Relationship Art

 

 

Mu and All

 

I would like to investigate this furthur. Using charts for

compatability and marriage issues. To really make it a group

learning for better knowledge and help.

 

Just as the plea that came in a few days ago of one wondering why

the interpetation of marriage prediction had not been fullfilled.

 

Is there an interest as a group to pick up these charts and study

them as a whole and then comment back and forth with observation and

learning views and tools?

 

Debra

 

 

 

, " Bettina " <chiria@n...>

wrote:

> Mu ...

>

>

> You make a lot of good points. Since the changes brought about by

the

> feminist movement (and those changes were way overdue), women (I'm

talking

> about American, middle class, and I will say White [because that's

mostly

> whom I know] women for the most part) want and expect the same

things that

> men have: good pay, good education, a chance to develop expertise

in some

> area .... but (and I believe you alluded to this), they don't want

to marry

> down. They want a guy who makes at least as much money as they do

and has

> at least as much education. A male dr. will marry a female nurse,

but how

> many female drs. will marry male nurses? A few, probably, but

it's the

> exception. It's a matter of wanting the best of both worlds.

This bugs me

> because there are plenty of nice, good natured guys out there who

would make

> wonderful husbands and fathers who don't make in the 6 figures and

have a

> membership for the country club.

>

> It's my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that in the Black

community

> it's more common for a woman who's employed as, say, a teacher or

in a

> management position to be married to a guy who's a physical

laborer. And

> why shouldn't it be that way? It can work just as well as the

reverse.

>

> I'd like to add a few things about Indian marriages. There are

some good

> points to planned marriages (it they're planned well), but I've

known many

> Indian people and been told (by the wives) that for a wife to

leave her

> husband for ANY reason, even if he's physically abusive, is social

suicide.

> If the man leaves his wife (or even dies) and she wants to

remarry, that

> puts her on the moral level of a prostitute.

>

> One other thing (a little off topic, but not entirely): I've

noticed that

> men who are widowed when they're young or middle aged (sometimes

even old)

> will usually remarry, or at least have a new sweetie, within a

year or two.

> When a woman is widowed, it's a long time before she remarries, if

ever.

> Why do you think this is? Do men need wives more than women need

husbands?

> Or ... does a man want a generic wife and a women is more aware of

the

> individual traits and characteristics of a man? Do women grieve

more or

> differently from men? Do men stuff their grief? Just wondering.

>

>

> ... Bettina

>

>

>

>

> MuMin Bey [mumin_bey]

> Wednesday, May 26, 2004 3:00 PM

>

> Astrology and The Gender Divide:

Discourses

> On the State of Our Relationship Art

>

>

> Astrology and The Gender Divide: Discourses Upon the State of Our

> Relationship Art

>

> Wed, May 26, 2004

>

> Because a great number of people have contacted me in gratitude for

> my humble writings on the question of relationship, marriage and so

> on, I have decided to share these writings which originally

appeared

> on the Pan Astrological Forum. What appears below are a series of

> thoughts and opinions by me and other respected members of the PAF.

> I am hopeful that they spark thought and promote meaningful

> discussion on the matters discussed therein.

>

> Very Interesting Book: " Mismatch " Mu'Min Bey

> May 24, 2004 15:53 PDT

>

> Very Interesting Book: " Mismatch "

>

> Hi All,

>

> Since there tends to be alot of discussion on relationships both

> here

> and elsewhere, I thought to bring this up.

>

> It's about a very good book I recently read called Mismatch, by

> Andrew

> Hacker, who also wrote Two Nations. Mismatch deals with the

> increasing

> gulf between the sexes, of all colors, here in America.

>

> Among other things, Hacker suggests that, since 1980, women are the

> ones

>

> who initiate divorce, with the majority of men wanting to keep the

> marriages intact. He also cites the fact that while women have gone

> on

> into higher education, more and more men, again of all colors, have

> not.

>

> Put this together with increased legal, sexual and social freedoms

> of

> women, and we can see some of the reasons why marriage as an

> institution

> continues on a downward spiral.

>

> Hacker suggests, based on his research and findings, that the major

> reason why things are the way they are right now is because many

> women

> are not getting men who meet their standards - and it all doesn't

> have

> to do with money alone, although that is a factor. Rather, it has

> more

> to do with lack of shared values, which can happen when one goes on

> to

> college and the other does not...about men not having the

> sensibilities

> today's women expect, and so on.

>

> Interestingly, Hacker also points out in the book that Black people

> have

>

> seemed to adapt to these conditions...afterall, it is a well known

> fact

> that far more Black women have educational degrees (and all that

> comes

> with it) than Black men, on average. He notes that while Black

> people

> certainly have problems in this area, when compared to Whites, we

> have

> done much better. Hacker also predicts that, if the current

> situation

> continues among the White population, they will surpass our current

> marriage/divorce/our of wedlock rate (again, keep in mind, please,

> we're

> talking about educated, upwardly mobile WHITE WOMEN, NOT teenage

> moms of

> the kind you would see on a Jerry Springer show) - and he suggests

> that

> perhaps the White community could learn something from ours in this

> respect.

>

> Hacker also deals with a very important, sensitive question - what

> does

> it mean to be a man, today, in 2004? In an age where more and more

> people work in the office, not the fields; where more and more

women

> are

>

> getting the jobs once the sole province of men; and where there are

> fewer and fewer outlets for traditional male behavior (hunting, for

> example, but there are many others)? Put this together with the

> skyrocketing sales of Viagra, all the " cops " TV shows, the Gangsta

> Rap

> movement in the Black community, and the all-pervasive Sports

> Economy

> here in the USA, it all points to some serious questions that need

> answering. Perhaps a major part of the problem, is that men have

yet

> to

> define for themselves, what it means to be a man. From all that I

> have

> seen thus far, it appears that it is Women are defining the

concept.

>

> More and more women are waiting longer and longer to have kids, to

> marry, and so on...many women never have kids and/or marry at all

> (and

> this is something that we as Black folk know very

well)...meanwhile,

> history the world over has shown what happens when you an

> unsocialized,

> large, virile male population with no sense of mission in life.

> Again,

> as Black folks, we know about this in ways that the White community

> are

> only now beginning to realize. In the meantime, Marriage, Family,

> and by

> extension, Community and Nation, are falling by the wayside.

>

> What I like about Hacker's works is he doesn't take it upon himself

> to

> solve the world's problems - he leaves such things to others. What

> he

> does is lays out the data, brings perspective to it, and leaves it

> to

> the rest of us to hash out. I've only touched on a few points he

> makes

> in the book, and I would highly urge everyone reading this to check

> it

> out.

>

> Salaam,

> Mu

>

> " Mismatch " - Zam Mu'Min Bey

> May 25, 2004 13:55 PDT

>

> Hi Zam,

>

> Without question, women have historically been victim to ruthless

> beatings and the like. I know about spousal abuse very well, having

> witnessed it in various forms over the years, involving female

loved

> ones. Your point here has considerable merit.

>

> However, since 1980, spousal abuse awareness, coupled with legal

> action,

> has reduced things considerably. This is not to say that spousal

> abuse

> has disappeared, but it IS to say that it's far more problematic

for

> a

> man to assault a woman today in 2004 than it was 30 years ago.

>

> That being said, and hacker points this out in his book, many women

> are

> opting for divorce not because of abuse and/or infidelity, but

> rather

> because of what they perceive as the lack of shared experiences and

> sensibilities. Because today's climate is more conducive to woman's

> independence, more and more women are opting out of marriage for

> reasons

> that, if were 50 years ago, our grandmothers would look at these

> women

> as if they had a eye in the middle of their foreheads.

>

> Furthermore, the stats also clearly points to the fact that most

> men,

> who do not initiate divorce, usually start up families

> elsewhere...in

> the Black community, for example, it is well known that a man can

go

> off

> and either start up a new family or join an existing one. I think

> this

> clearly debunks the notion that men are afraid to commit. Rather,

> this

> is about expectations, particularly on the female side of the

aisle.

>

> As Hacker points out in his book, men's needs simply aren't as

> complex

> as most women's...I know that's not a PC thing to say, but for the

> most

> part, for people who have lived for any length of time, they know

> what

> i'm saying is true, for the most part. Most men want a fairly

> attractive

> woman who is nice, fairly good in bed and can cook a decent meal.

> That

> she also can burn it up in the corporate boardroom, or go off into

a

> detailed analysis of Beowulf is a plus, but such things simply

> aren't a

> priority for most men.

>

> Because today's world is one that is much more focused on the

> college

> experience, everyone wants to think that they are more

sophisticated

> than our forebears...and there is something to be said for this

> view, in

> comparison to our forebears. However, what many of us - and I do

> have to

> say in this case, women in the main - fail to take into account, is

> that

> human beings are for the most part, the same today we were a couple

> thousand years ago.

>

> My personal view is that many marriages and relationships fail

> because

> of failure to manage expectations - and again I have to direct this

> observation in the main toward the female side of the aisle. In my

> astrological work, I cannot recount how many female clients bemoan

> their

> inability to find a " suitable mate " ...about the supposed lack of

> " eligible Black men " ...and about how adamant these women were about

> not

> " settling for less " . Yet they completely dismiss or overlook out of

> hand

> the many men who, while they may not have an MBA and earn 50K-

> plus/year,

> or be able to go through the motions at a wine and cheese affair,

> are

> good people nonetheless. That I never have heard such concerns from

> my

> male clients tells me that this tends to be more of a female

concern

> and

> issue.

>

> When my Mom was dating my Dad, there were tensions; she was a 19

> year

> old nurse with a brand new baby boy (me! ), living with her

> grandmother and trying to figure things out. My Dad was dating her,

> and

> pledged his love for her and her child, although that child was not

> biologically his own. There was a considerable age difference

> between

> the two - my Dad was 35 at the time. And, because my Mom came from

> the

> North, and my Dad from the South, there was regional differences

and

> the

> like. And, in the mind of my grandmother, my Mom's mom, my Dad was

> hardly a catch - afterall, he was dark skinned, bald and had the

> obligatory gold tooth that so many Black folk from the South had

> then

> and now.

>

> My Mom sat down with my great-grandmother, and they had a heart to

> heart

> talk, the kind we don't much about these days. My GGM told my Mom

> the

> following:

>

> " Diane, I understand that Bob may not be all that you want him to

> be -

> but he loves you and that child. And you need a father for your

son.

> You'll learn to love him " .

>

> My Mom and my Dad married on April 1, 1969, in my GGM's living

room.

>

> Make no mistake - my Mom and Dad had their share of problems, many

> of

> which I have recounted here and elsewhere - but if there is one

> thing I

> will always admire and respect about my Dad, is that he loved a

> woman

> enough to take her and her newborn child into his heart. And like

my

> GGM

> said, my Mom did indeed " learn to love " my Dad.

>

> I guess my point is that today, such things would sound alien...and

> I

> guess in many ways they are now. Which is a true shame, because

alot

> of

> relationships and marriages have needlessly fallen apart, in large

> part

> nowadays, because of unrealistic expectations on the part of many

> " liberated " women.

>

> That's my spiel for today.

>

> Salaam,

> Mu

>

> RE: " Mismatch " - Zam 2 Mu'Min Bey

> May 25, 2004 15:02 PDT

>

> Hi Zam,

>

> I think it would benefit you if you checked out Hacker's book. In

> it, he

> discuss the very thing we are discussing right now. Today's woman's

> needs are, all things being equal, simply more involved than

today's

> man. I'm not one for simplicity, but in this case, all things being

> equal, it is.

>

> On top of this, instead of alot of women recognizing what's

> important -

> a good provider, a good dad, someone who shows a basic level of

> respect

> and caring, a decent lover, a committed man, a loyal mate and lover

> and

> so on - many women make demands of men that are in many ways,

> unrealistic. Further, in many ways, lots of women want men to

think,

> act

> and see the world in the same way that they do.

>

> The reality, regardless of the reasons behind it, is that men who

> divorce almost always start up another family somewhere else - more

> often than not, with younger women than their first wives. This,

> along

> with the higher incidence of interracial marriage (the highest

> percentage being White men/Asian women) suggests that these men

want

> things that their White female counterparts either can't or won't

> fulfill...in fact, the major reason cited by White men who marry

> Asian

> women is that they are perceived as less

> aggressive/assertive/hostile/demanding than White women. Sounds

> familiar, doesn't it? It's the very same thing alot of Black men

say

> about Black women. And, in all fairness, while this isn't the PC

> thing

> to say, there is some truth behind it all.

>

> Men can get nuturing without having to get married, especially

> nowadays

> Zam...that so many men do remarry, says that it's about more than

> just

> getting mommied. I think the dirty little secret is, that alot of

> guys

> do want to settle into a stable situation, but have to contend with

> the

> allure of a " you can have it all " mindset that is so very pervasive

> here

> in America.

>

> Like you, I too happen to know several women who have opted to

> remain

> alone, some of them for more years than I care to recall. It's just

> inconceivable to think of a man voluntarily doing the same thing. I

> know

> I wouldn't, and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't voluntarily do it

> either.

> Again, it just shows that the needs of men and women, again, on

> average,

> are different. One more simpler, one a bit more complex. Not better

> or

> worse, just different. In any event, the prospect of spending a

> considerable portion alone without a significant other in your life

> is

> not something I look forward to with any sense of dignity. Indeed,

I

> see

> that as so very sad.

>

> More in a minute.

>

> Salaam,

> Mu

>

> Zam- wrote:

> Hey, I don't know if women are any more complicated then men

are ,

> many

> women

> just have different needs,and they might be a little more

> numerous... I

> think

> the climate of independence , and the educational opportunities

that

> women

> now have access to means that they aren't forced to remain in a bad

> relationships where they feel unfulfilled as they may have in the

> past,

> or where a man is

> there sole source of sustenance and income. Many are opting to not

> get

> married at all.

>

> I think also , that as we mature and learn more about ourselves,

> women

> have

> been able to actualize more about themselves and are more conscious

> of

> their

> emotional needs, which are often neglected by many men in

> relationships

> and so

> these women chose to break camp or remain single rather than get

> locked

> into an

> unfullfilling situation.

>

> I think that too often in our communities, many men who leave one

> women

> or

> are divorced by an ex aren't looking to create another family as

> much as

> find

> another women, another safe haven and hook up with a someone who

> will

> nurture

> them. Inevitably the women becomes pregnant and therefore he has

> another family

> by default. Not sure if most men deliberately go after those

> situations

> more

> than they just happen by circumstance and need.

>

> I still dont believe that most guys prefer marriage to the single

> life,

> especially in our community, and im not knocking them....lol

>

> " Mismatch " - From a Vedic Perspective... Mu'Min Bey

> May 25, 2004 15:45 PDT

>

> All,

>

> While we're going back and forth here, I thought to throw this in

> the

> mix...

>

> Many of you know that I am a Vedic astrologer, and have spent a

> considerable amount of time immersed in that culture. Indeed, at

> least

> half of my entire clientele are Indian born. And the chief concern

> the

> majority of them have, is marriage.

>

> As many of you know, in India, today, arranged marriage is very

> common.

> I am often called upon to " hookup " the charts of two people who

have

> yet

> to meet in person; the parents of the bride and groom are usually

> the

> ones who do the legwork.

>

> After doing this for some years now, and comparing it to what we

are

> discussing today, I think there is something to be said for their

> worldview. Indians, overall, have a totally different understanding

> of

> marriage than the average American does today. The understand that

> marriage is more than just about the hubbie and wifey, but rather

it

> is

> a contract that impacts the entire family, community indeed even

> nation.

> Because of the great impact this institution makes on everyone, the

> extended family in India takes an active and aggressive role in the

> potential coming together of two people.

>

> Because of the history of India, they have a great knack for

finding

> the

> goodness in everything, no matter how bad. Most Indians, even

today,

> understand full well what their options are (or aren't, I should

> say)

> and therefore are content to get what they can and move forward.

> They

> have no illusions that they " can have it all " and so on. Their

major

> concern is in finding a mate who has a spiritual center, is kind,

> and

> has a similiar outlook on life.

>

> For an Indian - even an Americanized one - the notion of divorce is

> horrible. Thus one of the many reasons why so much work is put into

> astrological matching two people for marriage. Indians value above

> all

> else, longevity of marriage, even if it comes at the price

> of " pizzazz " ,

> etc. Here in America, and increasingly moreso throughout the

Western

> world, people divorce at the drop of a hat. Which in turn, has a

> disasterous effect on our Society as a whole.

>

> The one thing I admire most about the Indian view of marriage is in

> how

> they have learned to manage expectations...to accept what can and

> cannot

> be done. Of course, this brings in the whole philosophy of Karma

and

> the

> like, which in and of itself is anathema, even to those here in the

> USA

> who consider themselves " spiritual " ...they are far too Americanized

> than

> they are willing to admit and so while they may talk a mean game

> about

> spirituality and like, they really ain't buying all that Fate and

> Karma

> crap. Here in America, you can be whatever you want to be, no

matter

> who

> don't like it, and no matter who it might impact. The Individual is

> everything. Period.

>

> So we see that Ego is rampant here in America with regard to

> marriage

> (and just about everything else for that matter)...think about it.

> All

> those bridal books, the ones that amount to the size of a phone

> book...these are clearly for the bride, as is the large majority of

> the

> wedding ceremony. And, we can cite other things from the hubbie's

> side

> of the aisle. And we can go on.

>

> While Zam continues to argue the notion that a number of women want

> men

> who are emotionally available and so on, again, it seems from the

> data

> presented by Hacker and others that that only seems to be only a

> part of

> the story. At least as important, is again, the sensibilities,

> nuances

> and out and out physical demands many women make of today's men.

>

> A good example of this comes in the sexual arena. Much is well

known

> about the " minute man " thing, and how much attention this has

gotten

> in

> recent years. And while there is something to be said for men

> improving

> in this area so as to be more satisfying to their mates, in all

> fairness, a good bit can be said about the situation in reverse as

> well.

> True, most men aren't hung like a horse and can screw twice as

long,

> but

> in fairness, as any man can attest to, there are a good number of

> women

> out there that, instead of looking like " da bomb " end up actually

> being

> " a bomb " in bed. And while it's true that a good number of men

could

> stand to improve in the romance department overall, we can also say

> with

> some degree of certainty, that there's a good number of women who

> ain't

> likely to be second coming of Vanessa Del Rio, either. The point

> that

> I'm making is that if you have unrealistic expectations in this -

or

> indeed, any area - you are only setting yourself and your

> relationship

> up for a major downfall, because those are ideals to which the vast

> majority of people, at any time, anywhere, can only strive, but

> rarely

> achieve.

>

> I think this is why the Vedic system of astrological compatibility

> is in

> many ways genious, because it evaluates the major areas of marital

> life,

> as well as the overall mental, emotional and physical state of the

> couple in ways that even today's Western astrology cannot even

think

> about approaching. And the Indian way of life has more focus on

> one's

> duty to society - which includes the extended family - than it does

> on

> individual gratification.

>

> I think it's something we as astrologers need to think about.

>

> Salaam,

> Mu

>

> Zam- wrote:

> In a message dated 5/25/2004 6:02:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> mumin- writes:> On top of this, instead of alot of women

> recognizing what's

> important -

> a good provider, a good dad, someone who shows a basic level of

> respect

> and caring, a decent lover, a committed man, a loyal mate and lover

> and

> so on - many women make demands of men that are in many ways,

> unrealistic. Further, in many ways, lots of women want men to

think,

> act

>

> and see the world in the same way that they do.

> Zam : I think that most women do want those very things and not

much

> more

> than that, but they find it difficult to find a man who will be

> those

> things, and

> not controlling, and not physically abusive, and not emotionally

> distant

> and

> not insenstive to her feelings, and definitely not a

> philanderer......I

> really

> dont think that women really are asking that much of men ,

> especially if

> you

> see the types of relatonships that many women remain in simply

> becasue

> they

> want to try and make it work out.It's in womens nature to make a

man

> 'become " or

> to push and prod him to actualize himself, thats a part of the

> nurturing

> process, however I odnt think that the average women has these

> ridiculous demands , or expectations for the most part, even if

some

> of them might be

> difficult

> to get laong with in some ways.

>

> More " Mismatch " & Astrological Thoughts - Zam, All Mu'Min Bey

> May 26, 2004 13:54 PDT

>

> Hi Zam, Everyone,

>

> I just wanted to add a few more thoughts on this topic.

>

> I think far too much is made of the headcase guys among us - the

> abusers, the adulterers, the general knuckleheads. Please don't get

> me

> wrong, such beings do continue to exist, but I think if we're all

> honest

> with ourselves and each other, we would have to agree that such

> behavior

> has sharply declined over the past 25 years.

>

> Since " The Burning Bed " , spousal abuse, for example, simply isn't

> the

> same animal it was prior to the 1980s. Today, it is far, far more

> problematic for a man, any man, to assault a woman with impunity.

> Stringent laws and the enforcement of those laws, make the lives of

> men

> who offend very difficult...and painful. Indeed, as the current

> ordeal

> of Kobe Bryant shows, just the accusation of Rape can ruin a man

for

> life.

>

> In no way am I saying that women still don't get mistreated in the

> most

> brutal of ways...but let me offer an analogy. 50 years ago,

> automotive

> safety was virtually nonexistent...there weren't even safety belts

> installed in cars back then, not to mention shatter-proof glass,

> rollover bars and the rest of it. 50 years later, we have cars made

> of

> materials that protect the passengers from the worst of the impact

> from

> an oncoming vehicle...most cars today have airbags standard, in

some

> cases on the driver's, passenger's, and sides...and safety belts

are

> as

> strong today as ever. As someone who has walked away from a number

> of

> car accidents, I can personally attest to the vast improvements of

> auto

> safety over the years. Now, does that mean that people cannot still

> be

> killed in car crashes? Certainly not - just making the point that

> things

> HAVE improved - markedly.

>

> I make the same argument with respect to our current topic on

women.

>

> So I think we kind of do ourselves a disservice to focus on what I

> consider to be in many ways red herring topics...and again, as

> Hacker

> points out in the book, the issue isn't one of life or death, or

> financial survival, but again one of the real or perceived lack of

> shared sensibilities, values and experiences that today's women

> expect

> and demand of their potential mates.

>

> It is very important for us to focus the debate here NOT on the

> working

> class man or woman - in the main, that class of people simply don't

> have

> these problems. Rather, and I think this is important for us to

> consider

> as astrologers (for most of us anyway, because our clients tend to

> come

> from the middle class) - the issue is coming from that growing

> sector of

> upwardly mobile, college educated female class. Trying to " mix and

> match " the classes in this regard only muddies the waters and gets

> us

> nowhere.

>

> I wanted to challenge Zam's notion of men hooking up with women

> after

> divorce because they want to be " mommied " - and to do that I'll

once

> again use my own parents as prima facia examples.

>

> My Dad had a family down in Savannah, GA, and for reasons that are

> still

> not entirely clear, at some point he left them and came up North to

> find

> work, like many Black men did. It was the 1960s, and my Dad did

> indeed

> find work as a longshoreman up in Brooklyn, New York City. He was

> paid

> very well, getting himself a very nice apartment, and an all white

> Cadillac, which, for those of you old to remember, was the

singature

> ride to have.

>

> Clearly, my Dad had everything to gain and nothing to loose - he

was

> a

> single man, living it up, and could - and did - have access to just

> about any woman he wanted out in NYC, without having to marry any

of

> them. Why then, did he give all that up just to get attached again?

> Especially to a woman who had an infant child?

>

> It was clear to see how my Dad got " hooked " - my Mom was a very

good

> looking woman back in her day. A zaftig " Redbone " (that's old Black

> slang for a light-skinned Black woman) with a wide, beautiful

smile,

> my

> Mom was all tits, thighs and ass - and on top of all that, she was

a

> nurse, which meant she had to wear those white uniforms that always

> seem

> to be so form-fitting on the ladies. My Dad was in Philly visiting

> friends and saw my Mom crossing Broad St. one early Spring day in

> 1969

> in that nurse's uniform - and damned near crashed his Coup De

Ville.

> He

> pulled over, got her attention, and the rest, as they say, is

> history.

>

> It's quite possible that my Dad could have had his way with my Mom

> without having to marry her - at the very least, he could have had

> his

> way with as many other ladies. But he chose to marry her, again,

> with

> child - and went on to sire three more kids with the same woman.

> That

> does NOT sound like a fear of committment, or the need for

mommying,

> Zam. In fact, that falls right in line with what we all know

accross

> America - that most men WANT to have a family, WANT to have

> committment.

>

>

> I think that my Mom and Dad would have had a much better marriage

> than

> they did IF they had the proper counseling - and I don't mean the

> one or

> two sessions that pass for " pre-marital counseling " that some

> churches

> and the like do nowadays, but real, sensitive, ongoing counseling

> for my

> parents. It would have helped them better manage and bridge the age

> differences, the regional differences, and the sexual differences.

> It

> would have also helped my Dad heal from his own issues growing up,

> to

> understand and appreciate his sexual drive and needs so as not to

> become

> a slave to them, and to find better outlets for his awesome

> mathematical

> skills and talents other than compulsive gambling. But, given what

> they

> had to work with, and the times in which they lived, I think they

> did

> alright - all of their children are considered by most people who

> know

> any or all of them to be intelligent, caring human beings. For all

> of

> their problems, they had to have done something right.

>

> I agree wholeheartedly with Zam insofar as the " slipping " of values

> in

> our current times are concerned. As more people become more

involved

> with " getting theirs " many of the things we all grew up have fallen

> by

> the wayside. Things that held our communities and families

together.

>

> In the hood, one of the fixtures was " Big Momma " , the eldest Black

> woman

> in the area. She was often the nosiest person on the block, looking

> into

> and after everyone's kids...and she was often the " go-to " person

> whom

> everyone came to to discuss important matters like marriage and

> relationship. For those of you who are White and into the New Age

> thing,

> you'll recognize the archetype as the " Crone " or Wise Woman. And

you

> can

> find out more about " Big Momma " by checking out the film Soul Food.

>

> Big Momma was around long before there was an Oprah, or an Iyanla,

> or a

> Dr. Phil or Dr. Joyce Brothers...and my Mom's heart to heart,

> pre-marital talk with our family's " Big Momma " , my great-

> grandmother,

> really helped my Mom I think. Unfortunately, not just in the Black

> community, but it seems in all communities in America, Big Momma

> seems

> to be a thing of the past. That's why it is my contention that we

as

> astrologers, female and male alike, have to step in as " Big Momma " .

>

> I have presented these and other topics of discussion because I

feel

> they are vitally important for us to consider as astrologers. Since

> the

> Uranus-Pluto conjunction in the sign of Virgo in the 1960s (and the

> more

> recent Uranus-Neptune conjunction in Capricorn in the 1990s - note

> how

> in both cases, the planet Uranus was involved and the Signs

involved

> were Feminine), norms and roles, accross the board, have

> dramatically

> changed. Without doubt, many things have improved - but many

> unintended

> consequences have occured as well. The current " Mismatch " thread is

> one

> such manifestation of those consequences.

>

> I belong to at least 20 different astrological forums and

listservs.

> To

> date, NONE of them have grappled with these issues in the way and

> manner

> that this one, the Pan Astrological Forum does. Many forums,

> desgined

> and built as little more than fertile marketing fields, don't

> approach

> anything that doesn't fit into their own little backyards. The

> owners of

> those forums are far too busy hawking their latest books and

> trolling

> for new clients. And the other forums that exist, usually conduct

> arid

> discussions, of interest only to astrologers - and a small segment

> of

> them at that.

>

> I wanted to air these issues out and get all of us thinking hard

> about

> these things, because people come to us for advice and guidance,

and

> I

> feel that we have to be on top of our game if we're ever going to

be

> of

> any real and meaningful help to our clients. Whether you agree or

> disagree, my hope is that all of this has made you think.

>

> Salaam,

> Mu

>

>

>

>

>

>

>