Astrology and The Gender Divide: Discourses On the State of Our Relationship Art

May 26, 2004

Astrology and The Gender Divide: Discourses Upon the State of Our

Relationship Art

Wed, May 26, 2004

Because a great number of people have contacted me in gratitude for

my humble writings on the question of relationship, marriage and so

on, I have decided to share these writings which originally appeared

on the Pan Astrological Forum. What appears below are a series of

thoughts and opinions by me and other respected members of the PAF.

I am hopeful that they spark thought and promote meaningful

discussion on the matters discussed therein.

Very Interesting Book: " Mismatch " Mu'Min Bey

May 24, 2004 15:53 PDT

Very Interesting Book: " Mismatch "

Hi All,

Since there tends to be alot of discussion on relationships both

here

and elsewhere, I thought to bring this up.

It's about a very good book I recently read called Mismatch, by

Andrew

Hacker, who also wrote Two Nations. Mismatch deals with the

increasing

gulf between the sexes, of all colors, here in America.

Among other things, Hacker suggests that, since 1980, women are the

ones

who initiate divorce, with the majority of men wanting to keep the

marriages intact. He also cites the fact that while women have gone

on

into higher education, more and more men, again of all colors, have

not.

Put this together with increased legal, sexual and social freedoms

of

women, and we can see some of the reasons why marriage as an

institution

continues on a downward spiral.

Hacker suggests, based on his research and findings, that the major

reason why things are the way they are right now is because many

women

are not getting men who meet their standards - and it all doesn't

have

to do with money alone, although that is a factor. Rather, it has

more

to do with lack of shared values, which can happen when one goes on

to

college and the other does not...about men not having the

sensibilities

today's women expect, and so on.

Interestingly, Hacker also points out in the book that Black people

have

seemed to adapt to these conditions...afterall, it is a well known

fact

that far more Black women have educational degrees (and all that

comes

with it) than Black men, on average. He notes that while Black

people

certainly have problems in this area, when compared to Whites, we

have

done much better. Hacker also predicts that, if the current

situation

continues among the White population, they will surpass our current

marriage/divorce/our of wedlock rate (again, keep in mind, please,

we're

talking about educated, upwardly mobile WHITE WOMEN, NOT teenage

moms of

the kind you would see on a Jerry Springer show) - and he suggests

that

perhaps the White community could learn something from ours in this

respect.

Hacker also deals with a very important, sensitive question - what

does

it mean to be a man, today, in 2004? In an age where more and more

people work in the office, not the fields; where more and more women

are

getting the jobs once the sole province of men; and where there are

fewer and fewer outlets for traditional male behavior (hunting, for

example, but there are many others)? Put this together with the

skyrocketing sales of Viagra, all the " cops " TV shows, the Gangsta

Rap

movement in the Black community, and the all-pervasive Sports

Economy

here in the USA, it all points to some serious questions that need

answering. Perhaps a major part of the problem, is that men have yet

to

define for themselves, what it means to be a man. From all that I

have

seen thus far, it appears that it is Women are defining the concept.

More and more women are waiting longer and longer to have kids, to

marry, and so on...many women never have kids and/or marry at all

(and

this is something that we as Black folk know very well)...meanwhile,

history the world over has shown what happens when you an

unsocialized,

large, virile male population with no sense of mission in life.

Again,

as Black folks, we know about this in ways that the White community

are

only now beginning to realize. In the meantime, Marriage, Family,

and by

extension, Community and Nation, are falling by the wayside.

What I like about Hacker's works is he doesn't take it upon himself

to

solve the world's problems - he leaves such things to others. What

he

does is lays out the data, brings perspective to it, and leaves it

to

the rest of us to hash out. I've only touched on a few points he

makes

in the book, and I would highly urge everyone reading this to check

it

out.

Salaam,

Mu

" Mismatch " - Zam Mu'Min Bey

May 25, 2004 13:55 PDT

Hi Zam,

Without question, women have historically been victim to ruthless

beatings and the like. I know about spousal abuse very well, having

witnessed it in various forms over the years, involving female loved

ones. Your point here has considerable merit.

However, since 1980, spousal abuse awareness, coupled with legal

action,

has reduced things considerably. This is not to say that spousal

abuse

has disappeared, but it IS to say that it's far more problematic for

a

man to assault a woman today in 2004 than it was 30 years ago.

That being said, and hacker points this out in his book, many women

are

opting for divorce not because of abuse and/or infidelity, but

rather

because of what they perceive as the lack of shared experiences and

sensibilities. Because today's climate is more conducive to woman's

independence, more and more women are opting out of marriage for

reasons

that, if were 50 years ago, our grandmothers would look at these

women

as if they had a eye in the middle of their foreheads.

Furthermore, the stats also clearly points to the fact that most

men,

who do not initiate divorce, usually start up families

elsewhere...in

the Black community, for example, it is well known that a man can go

off

and either start up a new family or join an existing one. I think

this

clearly debunks the notion that men are afraid to commit. Rather,

this

is about expectations, particularly on the female side of the aisle.

As Hacker points out in his book, men's needs simply aren't as

complex

as most women's...I know that's not a PC thing to say, but for the

most

part, for people who have lived for any length of time, they know

what

i'm saying is true, for the most part. Most men want a fairly

attractive

woman who is nice, fairly good in bed and can cook a decent meal.

That

she also can burn it up in the corporate boardroom, or go off into a

detailed analysis of Beowulf is a plus, but such things simply

aren't a

priority for most men.

Because today's world is one that is much more focused on the

college

experience, everyone wants to think that they are more sophisticated

than our forebears...and there is something to be said for this

view, in

comparison to our forebears. However, what many of us - and I do

have to

say in this case, women in the main - fail to take into account, is

that

human beings are for the most part, the same today we were a couple

thousand years ago.

My personal view is that many marriages and relationships fail

because

of failure to manage expectations - and again I have to direct this

observation in the main toward the female side of the aisle. In my

astrological work, I cannot recount how many female clients bemoan

their

inability to find a " suitable mate " ...about the supposed lack of

" eligible Black men " ...and about how adamant these women were about

not

" settling for less " . Yet they completely dismiss or overlook out of

hand

the many men who, while they may not have an MBA and earn 50K-

plus/year,

or be able to go through the motions at a wine and cheese affair,

are

good people nonetheless. That I never have heard such concerns from

my

male clients tells me that this tends to be more of a female concern

and

issue.

When my Mom was dating my Dad, there were tensions; she was a 19

year

old nurse with a brand new baby boy (me! ), living with her

grandmother and trying to figure things out. My Dad was dating her,

and

pledged his love for her and her child, although that child was not

biologically his own. There was a considerable age difference

between

the two - my Dad was 35 at the time. And, because my Mom came from

the

North, and my Dad from the South, there was regional differences and

the

like. And, in the mind of my grandmother, my Mom's mom, my Dad was

hardly a catch - afterall, he was dark skinned, bald and had the

obligatory gold tooth that so many Black folk from the South had

then

and now.

My Mom sat down with my great-grandmother, and they had a heart to

heart

talk, the kind we don't much about these days. My GGM told my Mom

the

following:

" Diane, I understand that Bob may not be all that you want him to

be -

but he loves you and that child. And you need a father for your son.

You'll learn to love him " .

My Mom and my Dad married on April 1, 1969, in my GGM's living room.

Make no mistake - my Mom and Dad had their share of problems, many

of

which I have recounted here and elsewhere - but if there is one

thing I

will always admire and respect about my Dad, is that he loved a

woman

enough to take her and her newborn child into his heart. And like my

GGM

said, my Mom did indeed " learn to love " my Dad.

I guess my point is that today, such things would sound alien...and

I

guess in many ways they are now. Which is a true shame, because alot

of

relationships and marriages have needlessly fallen apart, in large

part

nowadays, because of unrealistic expectations on the part of many

" liberated " women.

That's my spiel for today.

Salaam,

Mu

RE: " Mismatch " - Zam 2 Mu'Min Bey

May 25, 2004 15:02 PDT

Hi Zam,

I think it would benefit you if you checked out Hacker's book. In

it, he

discuss the very thing we are discussing right now. Today's woman's

needs are, all things being equal, simply more involved than today's

man. I'm not one for simplicity, but in this case, all things being

equal, it is.

On top of this, instead of alot of women recognizing what's

important -

a good provider, a good dad, someone who shows a basic level of

respect

and caring, a decent lover, a committed man, a loyal mate and lover

and

so on - many women make demands of men that are in many ways,

unrealistic. Further, in many ways, lots of women want men to think,

act

and see the world in the same way that they do.

The reality, regardless of the reasons behind it, is that men who

divorce almost always start up another family somewhere else - more

often than not, with younger women than their first wives. This,

along

with the higher incidence of interracial marriage (the highest

percentage being White men/Asian women) suggests that these men want

things that their White female counterparts either can't or won't

fulfill...in fact, the major reason cited by White men who marry

Asian

women is that they are perceived as less

aggressive/assertive/hostile/demanding than White women. Sounds

familiar, doesn't it? It's the very same thing alot of Black men say

about Black women. And, in all fairness, while this isn't the PC

thing

to say, there is some truth behind it all.

Men can get nuturing without having to get married, especially

nowadays

Zam...that so many men do remarry, says that it's about more than

just

getting mommied. I think the dirty little secret is, that alot of

guys

do want to settle into a stable situation, but have to contend with

the

allure of a " you can have it all " mindset that is so very pervasive

here

in America.

Like you, I too happen to know several women who have opted to

remain

alone, some of them for more years than I care to recall. It's just

inconceivable to think of a man voluntarily doing the same thing. I

know

I wouldn't, and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't voluntarily do it

either.

Again, it just shows that the needs of men and women, again, on

average,

are different. One more simpler, one a bit more complex. Not better

or

worse, just different. In any event, the prospect of spending a

considerable portion alone without a significant other in your life

is

not something I look forward to with any sense of dignity. Indeed, I

see

that as so very sad.

More in a minute.

Salaam,

Mu

Zam- wrote:

Hey, I don't know if women are any more complicated then men are ,

many

women

just have different needs,and they might be a little more

numerous... I

think

the climate of independence , and the educational opportunities that

women

now have access to means that they aren't forced to remain in a bad

relationships where they feel unfulfilled as they may have in the

past,

or where a man is

there sole source of sustenance and income. Many are opting to not

get

married at all.

I think also , that as we mature and learn more about ourselves,

women

have

been able to actualize more about themselves and are more conscious

of

their

emotional needs, which are often neglected by many men in

relationships

and so

these women chose to break camp or remain single rather than get

locked

into an

unfullfilling situation.

I think that too often in our communities, many men who leave one

women

or

are divorced by an ex aren't looking to create another family as

much as

find

another women, another safe haven and hook up with a someone who

will

nurture

them. Inevitably the women becomes pregnant and therefore he has

another family

by default. Not sure if most men deliberately go after those

situations

more

than they just happen by circumstance and need.

I still dont believe that most guys prefer marriage to the single

life,

especially in our community, and im not knocking them....lol

" Mismatch " - From a Vedic Perspective... Mu'Min Bey

May 25, 2004 15:45 PDT

All,

While we're going back and forth here, I thought to throw this in

the

mix...

Many of you know that I am a Vedic astrologer, and have spent a

considerable amount of time immersed in that culture. Indeed, at

least

half of my entire clientele are Indian born. And the chief concern

the

majority of them have, is marriage.

As many of you know, in India, today, arranged marriage is very

common.

I am often called upon to " hookup " the charts of two people who have

yet

to meet in person; the parents of the bride and groom are usually

the

ones who do the legwork.

After doing this for some years now, and comparing it to what we are

discussing today, I think there is something to be said for their

worldview. Indians, overall, have a totally different understanding

of

marriage than the average American does today. The understand that

marriage is more than just about the hubbie and wifey, but rather it

is

a contract that impacts the entire family, community indeed even

nation.

Because of the great impact this institution makes on everyone, the

extended family in India takes an active and aggressive role in the

potential coming together of two people.

Because of the history of India, they have a great knack for finding

the

goodness in everything, no matter how bad. Most Indians, even today,

understand full well what their options are (or aren't, I should

say)

and therefore are content to get what they can and move forward.

They

have no illusions that they " can have it all " and so on. Their major

concern is in finding a mate who has a spiritual center, is kind,

and

has a similiar outlook on life.

For an Indian - even an Americanized one - the notion of divorce is

horrible. Thus one of the many reasons why so much work is put into

astrological matching two people for marriage. Indians value above

all

else, longevity of marriage, even if it comes at the price

of " pizzazz " ,

etc. Here in America, and increasingly moreso throughout the Western

world, people divorce at the drop of a hat. Which in turn, has a

disasterous effect on our Society as a whole.

The one thing I admire most about the Indian view of marriage is in

how

they have learned to manage expectations...to accept what can and

cannot

be done. Of course, this brings in the whole philosophy of Karma and

the

like, which in and of itself is anathema, even to those here in the

USA

who consider themselves " spiritual " ...they are far too Americanized

than

they are willing to admit and so while they may talk a mean game

about

spirituality and like, they really ain't buying all that Fate and

Karma

crap. Here in America, you can be whatever you want to be, no matter

who

don't like it, and no matter who it might impact. The Individual is

everything. Period.

So we see that Ego is rampant here in America with regard to

marriage

(and just about everything else for that matter)...think about it.

All

those bridal books, the ones that amount to the size of a phone

book...these are clearly for the bride, as is the large majority of

the

wedding ceremony. And, we can cite other things from the hubbie's

side

of the aisle. And we can go on.

While Zam continues to argue the notion that a number of women want

men

who are emotionally available and so on, again, it seems from the

data

presented by Hacker and others that that only seems to be only a

part of

the story. At least as important, is again, the sensibilities,

nuances

and out and out physical demands many women make of today's men.

A good example of this comes in the sexual arena. Much is well known

about the " minute man " thing, and how much attention this has gotten

in

recent years. And while there is something to be said for men

improving

in this area so as to be more satisfying to their mates, in all

fairness, a good bit can be said about the situation in reverse as

well.

True, most men aren't hung like a horse and can screw twice as long,

but

in fairness, as any man can attest to, there are a good number of

women

out there that, instead of looking like " da bomb " end up actually

being

" a bomb " in bed. And while it's true that a good number of men could

stand to improve in the romance department overall, we can also say

with

some degree of certainty, that there's a good number of women who

ain't

likely to be second coming of Vanessa Del Rio, either. The point

that

I'm making is that if you have unrealistic expectations in this - or

indeed, any area - you are only setting yourself and your

relationship

up for a major downfall, because those are ideals to which the vast

majority of people, at any time, anywhere, can only strive, but

rarely

achieve.

I think this is why the Vedic system of astrological compatibility

is in

many ways genious, because it evaluates the major areas of marital

life,

as well as the overall mental, emotional and physical state of the

couple in ways that even today's Western astrology cannot even think

about approaching. And the Indian way of life has more focus on

one's

duty to society - which includes the extended family - than it does

on

individual gratification.

I think it's something we as astrologers need to think about.

Salaam,

Mu

Zam- wrote:

In a message dated 5/25/2004 6:02:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

mumin- writes:> On top of this, instead of alot of women

recognizing what's

important -

a good provider, a good dad, someone who shows a basic level of

respect

and caring, a decent lover, a committed man, a loyal mate and lover

and

so on - many women make demands of men that are in many ways,

unrealistic. Further, in many ways, lots of women want men to think,

act

and see the world in the same way that they do.

Zam : I think that most women do want those very things and not much

more

than that, but they find it difficult to find a man who will be

those

things, and

not controlling, and not physically abusive, and not emotionally

distant

and

not insenstive to her feelings, and definitely not a

philanderer......I

really

dont think that women really are asking that much of men ,

especially if

you

see the types of relatonships that many women remain in simply

becasue

they

want to try and make it work out.It's in womens nature to make a man

'become " or

to push and prod him to actualize himself, thats a part of the

nurturing

process, however I odnt think that the average women has these

ridiculous demands , or expectations for the most part, even if some

of them might be

difficult

to get laong with in some ways.

More " Mismatch " & Astrological Thoughts - Zam, All Mu'Min Bey

May 26, 2004 13:54 PDT

Hi Zam, Everyone,

I just wanted to add a few more thoughts on this topic.

I think far too much is made of the headcase guys among us - the

abusers, the adulterers, the general knuckleheads. Please don't get

me

wrong, such beings do continue to exist, but I think if we're all

honest

with ourselves and each other, we would have to agree that such

behavior

has sharply declined over the past 25 years.

Since " The Burning Bed " , spousal abuse, for example, simply isn't

the

same animal it was prior to the 1980s. Today, it is far, far more

problematic for a man, any man, to assault a woman with impunity.

Stringent laws and the enforcement of those laws, make the lives of

men

who offend very difficult...and painful. Indeed, as the current

ordeal

of Kobe Bryant shows, just the accusation of Rape can ruin a man for

life.

In no way am I saying that women still don't get mistreated in the

most

brutal of ways...but let me offer an analogy. 50 years ago,

automotive

safety was virtually nonexistent...there weren't even safety belts

installed in cars back then, not to mention shatter-proof glass,

rollover bars and the rest of it. 50 years later, we have cars made

of

materials that protect the passengers from the worst of the impact

from

an oncoming vehicle...most cars today have airbags standard, in some

cases on the driver's, passenger's, and sides...and safety belts are

as

strong today as ever. As someone who has walked away from a number

of

car accidents, I can personally attest to the vast improvements of

auto

safety over the years. Now, does that mean that people cannot still

be

killed in car crashes? Certainly not - just making the point that

things

HAVE improved - markedly.

I make the same argument with respect to our current topic on women.

So I think we kind of do ourselves a disservice to focus on what I

consider to be in many ways red herring topics...and again, as

Hacker

points out in the book, the issue isn't one of life or death, or

financial survival, but again one of the real or perceived lack of

shared sensibilities, values and experiences that today's women

expect

and demand of their potential mates.

It is very important for us to focus the debate here NOT on the

working

class man or woman - in the main, that class of people simply don't

have

these problems. Rather, and I think this is important for us to

consider

as astrologers (for most of us anyway, because our clients tend to

come

from the middle class) - the issue is coming from that growing

sector of

upwardly mobile, college educated female class. Trying to " mix and

match " the classes in this regard only muddies the waters and gets

us

nowhere.

I wanted to challenge Zam's notion of men hooking up with women

after

divorce because they want to be " mommied " - and to do that I'll once

again use my own parents as prima facia examples.

My Dad had a family down in Savannah, GA, and for reasons that are

still

not entirely clear, at some point he left them and came up North to

find

work, like many Black men did. It was the 1960s, and my Dad did

indeed

find work as a longshoreman up in Brooklyn, New York City. He was

paid

very well, getting himself a very nice apartment, and an all white

Cadillac, which, for those of you old to remember, was the singature

ride to have.

Clearly, my Dad had everything to gain and nothing to loose - he was

a

single man, living it up, and could - and did - have access to just

about any woman he wanted out in NYC, without having to marry any of

them. Why then, did he give all that up just to get attached again?

Especially to a woman who had an infant child?

It was clear to see how my Dad got " hooked " - my Mom was a very good

looking woman back in her day. A zaftig " Redbone " (that's old Black

slang for a light-skinned Black woman) with a wide, beautiful smile,

my

Mom was all tits, thighs and ass - and on top of all that, she was a

nurse, which meant she had to wear those white uniforms that always

seem

to be so form-fitting on the ladies. My Dad was in Philly visiting

friends and saw my Mom crossing Broad St. one early Spring day in

1969

in that nurse's uniform - and damned near crashed his Coup De Ville.

He

pulled over, got her attention, and the rest, as they say, is

history.

It's quite possible that my Dad could have had his way with my Mom

without having to marry her - at the very least, he could have had

his

way with as many other ladies. But he chose to marry her, again,

with

child - and went on to sire three more kids with the same woman.

That

does NOT sound like a fear of committment, or the need for mommying,

Zam. In fact, that falls right in line with what we all know accross

America - that most men WANT to have a family, WANT to have

committment.

I think that my Mom and Dad would have had a much better marriage

than

they did IF they had the proper counseling - and I don't mean the

one or

two sessions that pass for " pre-marital counseling " that some

churches

and the like do nowadays, but real, sensitive, ongoing counseling

for my

parents. It would have helped them better manage and bridge the age

differences, the regional differences, and the sexual differences.

It

would have also helped my Dad heal from his own issues growing up,

to

understand and appreciate his sexual drive and needs so as not to

become

a slave to them, and to find better outlets for his awesome

mathematical

skills and talents other than compulsive gambling. But, given what

they

had to work with, and the times in which they lived, I think they

did

alright - all of their children are considered by most people who

know

any or all of them to be intelligent, caring human beings. For all

of

their problems, they had to have done something right.

I agree wholeheartedly with Zam insofar as the " slipping " of values

in

our current times are concerned. As more people become more involved

with " getting theirs " many of the things we all grew up have fallen

by

the wayside. Things that held our communities and families together.

In the hood, one of the fixtures was " Big Momma " , the eldest Black

woman

in the area. She was often the nosiest person on the block, looking

into

and after everyone's kids...and she was often the " go-to " person

whom

everyone came to to discuss important matters like marriage and

relationship. For those of you who are White and into the New Age

thing,

you'll recognize the archetype as the " Crone " or Wise Woman. And you

can

find out more about " Big Momma " by checking out the film Soul Food.

Big Momma was around long before there was an Oprah, or an Iyanla,

or a

Dr. Phil or Dr. Joyce Brothers...and my Mom's heart to heart,

pre-marital talk with our family's " Big Momma " , my great-

grandmother,

really helped my Mom I think. Unfortunately, not just in the Black

community, but it seems in all communities in America, Big Momma

seems

to be a thing of the past. That's why it is my contention that we as

astrologers, female and male alike, have to step in as " Big Momma " .

I have presented these and other topics of discussion because I feel

they are vitally important for us to consider as astrologers. Since

the

Uranus-Pluto conjunction in the sign of Virgo in the 1960s (and the

more

recent Uranus-Neptune conjunction in Capricorn in the 1990s - note

how

in both cases, the planet Uranus was involved and the Signs involved

were Feminine), norms and roles, accross the board, have

dramatically

changed. Without doubt, many things have improved - but many

unintended

consequences have occured as well. The current " Mismatch " thread is

one

such manifestation of those consequences.

I belong to at least 20 different astrological forums and listservs.

To

date, NONE of them have grappled with these issues in the way and

manner

that this one, the Pan Astrological Forum does. Many forums,

desgined

and built as little more than fertile marketing fields, don't

approach

anything that doesn't fit into their own little backyards. The

owners of

those forums are far too busy hawking their latest books and

trolling

for new clients. And the other forums that exist, usually conduct

arid

discussions, of interest only to astrologers - and a small segment

of

them at that.

I wanted to air these issues out and get all of us thinking hard

about

these things, because people come to us for advice and guidance, and

I

feel that we have to be on top of our game if we're ever going to be

of

any real and meaningful help to our clients. Whether you agree or

disagree, my hope is that all of this has made you think.

Salaam,

Mu

May 27, 2004

Mu ...

You make a lot of good points. Since the changes brought about by the

feminist movement (and those changes were way overdue), women (I'm talking

about American, middle class, and I will say White [because that's mostly

whom I know] women for the most part) want and expect the same things that

men have: good pay, good education, a chance to develop expertise in some

area .... but (and I believe you alluded to this), they don't want to marry

down. They want a guy who makes at least as much money as they do and has

at least as much education. A male dr. will marry a female nurse, but how

many female drs. will marry male nurses? A few, probably, but it's the

exception. It's a matter of wanting the best of both worlds. This bugs me

because there are plenty of nice, good natured guys out there who would make

wonderful husbands and fathers who don't make in the 6 figures and have a

membership for the country club.

It's my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that in the Black community

it's more common for a woman who's employed as, say, a teacher or in a

management position to be married to a guy who's a physical laborer. And

why shouldn't it be that way? It can work just as well as the reverse.

I'd like to add a few things about Indian marriages. There are some good

points to planned marriages (it they're planned well), but I've known many

Indian people and been told (by the wives) that for a wife to leave her

husband for ANY reason, even if he's physically abusive, is social suicide.

If the man leaves his wife (or even dies) and she wants to remarry, that

puts her on the moral level of a prostitute.

One other thing (a little off topic, but not entirely): I've noticed that

men who are widowed when they're young or middle aged (sometimes even old)

will usually remarry, or at least have a new sweetie, within a year or two.

When a woman is widowed, it's a long time before she remarries, if ever.

Why do you think this is? Do men need wives more than women need husbands?

Or ... does a man want a generic wife and a women is more aware of the

individual traits and characteristics of a man? Do women grieve more or

differently from men? Do men stuff their grief? Just wondering.

.... Bettina

MuMin Bey [mumin_bey]

Wednesday, May 26, 2004 3:00 PM

Astrology and The Gender Divide: Discourses

On the State of Our Relationship Art

Astrology and The Gender Divide: Discourses Upon the State of Our

Relationship Art

Wed, May 26, 2004

Because a great number of people have contacted me in gratitude for

my humble writings on the question of relationship, marriage and so

on, I have decided to share these writings which originally appeared

on the Pan Astrological Forum. What appears below are a series of

thoughts and opinions by me and other respected members of the PAF.

I am hopeful that they spark thought and promote meaningful

discussion on the matters discussed therein.

Very Interesting Book: " Mismatch " Mu'Min Bey

May 24, 2004 15:53 PDT

Very Interesting Book: " Mismatch "

Hi All,

Since there tends to be alot of discussion on relationships both

here

and elsewhere, I thought to bring this up.

It's about a very good book I recently read called Mismatch, by

Andrew

Hacker, who also wrote Two Nations. Mismatch deals with the

increasing

gulf between the sexes, of all colors, here in America.

Among other things, Hacker suggests that, since 1980, women are the

ones

who initiate divorce, with the majority of men wanting to keep the

marriages intact. He also cites the fact that while women have gone

on

into higher education, more and more men, again of all colors, have

not.

Put this together with increased legal, sexual and social freedoms

of

women, and we can see some of the reasons why marriage as an

institution

continues on a downward spiral.

Hacker suggests, based on his research and findings, that the major

reason why things are the way they are right now is because many

women

are not getting men who meet their standards - and it all doesn't

have

to do with money alone, although that is a factor. Rather, it has

more

to do with lack of shared values, which can happen when one goes on

to

college and the other does not...about men not having the

sensibilities

today's women expect, and so on.

Interestingly, Hacker also points out in the book that Black people

have

seemed to adapt to these conditions...afterall, it is a well known

fact

that far more Black women have educational degrees (and all that

comes

with it) than Black men, on average. He notes that while Black

people

certainly have problems in this area, when compared to Whites, we

have

done much better. Hacker also predicts that, if the current

situation

continues among the White population, they will surpass our current

marriage/divorce/our of wedlock rate (again, keep in mind, please,

we're

talking about educated, upwardly mobile WHITE WOMEN, NOT teenage

moms of

the kind you would see on a Jerry Springer show) - and he suggests

that

perhaps the White community could learn something from ours in this

respect.

Hacker also deals with a very important, sensitive question - what

does

it mean to be a man, today, in 2004? In an age where more and more

people work in the office, not the fields; where more and more women

are

getting the jobs once the sole province of men; and where there are

fewer and fewer outlets for traditional male behavior (hunting, for

example, but there are many others)? Put this together with the

skyrocketing sales of Viagra, all the " cops " TV shows, the Gangsta

Rap

movement in the Black community, and the all-pervasive Sports

Economy

here in the USA, it all points to some serious questions that need

answering. Perhaps a major part of the problem, is that men have yet

to

define for themselves, what it means to be a man. From all that I

have

seen thus far, it appears that it is Women are defining the concept.

More and more women are waiting longer and longer to have kids, to

marry, and so on...many women never have kids and/or marry at all

(and

this is something that we as Black folk know very well)...meanwhile,

history the world over has shown what happens when you an

unsocialized,

large, virile male population with no sense of mission in life.

Again,

as Black folks, we know about this in ways that the White community

are

only now beginning to realize. In the meantime, Marriage, Family,

and by

extension, Community and Nation, are falling by the wayside.

What I like about Hacker's works is he doesn't take it upon himself

to

solve the world's problems - he leaves such things to others. What

he

does is lays out the data, brings perspective to it, and leaves it

to

the rest of us to hash out. I've only touched on a few points he

makes

in the book, and I would highly urge everyone reading this to check

it

out.

Salaam,

Mu

" Mismatch " - Zam Mu'Min Bey

May 25, 2004 13:55 PDT

Hi Zam,

Without question, women have historically been victim to ruthless

beatings and the like. I know about spousal abuse very well, having

witnessed it in various forms over the years, involving female loved

ones. Your point here has considerable merit.

However, since 1980, spousal abuse awareness, coupled with legal

action,

has reduced things considerably. This is not to say that spousal

abuse

has disappeared, but it IS to say that it's far more problematic for

a

man to assault a woman today in 2004 than it was 30 years ago.

That being said, and hacker points this out in his book, many women

are

opting for divorce not because of abuse and/or infidelity, but

rather

because of what they perceive as the lack of shared experiences and

sensibilities. Because today's climate is more conducive to woman's

independence, more and more women are opting out of marriage for

reasons

that, if were 50 years ago, our grandmothers would look at these

women

as if they had a eye in the middle of their foreheads.

Furthermore, the stats also clearly points to the fact that most

men,

who do not initiate divorce, usually start up families

elsewhere...in

the Black community, for example, it is well known that a man can go

off

and either start up a new family or join an existing one. I think

this

clearly debunks the notion that men are afraid to commit. Rather,

this

is about expectations, particularly on the female side of the aisle.

As Hacker points out in his book, men's needs simply aren't as

complex

as most women's...I know that's not a PC thing to say, but for the

most

part, for people who have lived for any length of time, they know

what

i'm saying is true, for the most part. Most men want a fairly

attractive

woman who is nice, fairly good in bed and can cook a decent meal.

That

she also can burn it up in the corporate boardroom, or go off into a

detailed analysis of Beowulf is a plus, but such things simply

aren't a

priority for most men.

Because today's world is one that is much more focused on the

college

experience, everyone wants to think that they are more sophisticated

than our forebears...and there is something to be said for this

view, in

comparison to our forebears. However, what many of us - and I do

have to

say in this case, women in the main - fail to take into account, is

that

human beings are for the most part, the same today we were a couple

thousand years ago.

My personal view is that many marriages and relationships fail

because

of failure to manage expectations - and again I have to direct this

observation in the main toward the female side of the aisle. In my

astrological work, I cannot recount how many female clients bemoan

their

inability to find a " suitable mate " ...about the supposed lack of

" eligible Black men " ...and about how adamant these women were about

not

" settling for less " . Yet they completely dismiss or overlook out of

hand

the many men who, while they may not have an MBA and earn 50K-

plus/year,

or be able to go through the motions at a wine and cheese affair,

are

good people nonetheless. That I never have heard such concerns from

my

male clients tells me that this tends to be more of a female concern

and

issue.

When my Mom was dating my Dad, there were tensions; she was a 19

year

old nurse with a brand new baby boy (me! ), living with her

grandmother and trying to figure things out. My Dad was dating her,

and

pledged his love for her and her child, although that child was not

biologically his own. There was a considerable age difference

between

the two - my Dad was 35 at the time. And, because my Mom came from

the

North, and my Dad from the South, there was regional differences and

the

like. And, in the mind of my grandmother, my Mom's mom, my Dad was

hardly a catch - afterall, he was dark skinned, bald and had the

obligatory gold tooth that so many Black folk from the South had

then

and now.

My Mom sat down with my great-grandmother, and they had a heart to

heart

talk, the kind we don't much about these days. My GGM told my Mom

the

following:

" Diane, I understand that Bob may not be all that you want him to

be -

but he loves you and that child. And you need a father for your son.

You'll learn to love him " .

My Mom and my Dad married on April 1, 1969, in my GGM's living room.

Make no mistake - my Mom and Dad had their share of problems, many

of

which I have recounted here and elsewhere - but if there is one

thing I

will always admire and respect about my Dad, is that he loved a

woman

enough to take her and her newborn child into his heart. And like my

GGM

said, my Mom did indeed " learn to love " my Dad.

I guess my point is that today, such things would sound alien...and

I

guess in many ways they are now. Which is a true shame, because alot

of

relationships and marriages have needlessly fallen apart, in large

part

nowadays, because of unrealistic expectations on the part of many

" liberated " women.

That's my spiel for today.

Salaam,

Mu

RE: " Mismatch " - Zam 2 Mu'Min Bey

May 25, 2004 15:02 PDT

Hi Zam,

I think it would benefit you if you checked out Hacker's book. In

it, he

discuss the very thing we are discussing right now. Today's woman's

needs are, all things being equal, simply more involved than today's

man. I'm not one for simplicity, but in this case, all things being

equal, it is.

On top of this, instead of alot of women recognizing what's

important -

a good provider, a good dad, someone who shows a basic level of

respect

and caring, a decent lover, a committed man, a loyal mate and lover

and

so on - many women make demands of men that are in many ways,

unrealistic. Further, in many ways, lots of women want men to think,

act

and see the world in the same way that they do.

The reality, regardless of the reasons behind it, is that men who

divorce almost always start up another family somewhere else - more

often than not, with younger women than their first wives. This,

along

with the higher incidence of interracial marriage (the highest

percentage being White men/Asian women) suggests that these men want

things that their White female counterparts either can't or won't

fulfill...in fact, the major reason cited by White men who marry

Asian

women is that they are perceived as less

aggressive/assertive/hostile/demanding than White women. Sounds

familiar, doesn't it? It's the very same thing alot of Black men say

about Black women. And, in all fairness, while this isn't the PC

thing

to say, there is some truth behind it all.

Men can get nuturing without having to get married, especially

nowadays

Zam...that so many men do remarry, says that it's about more than

just

getting mommied. I think the dirty little secret is, that alot of

guys

do want to settle into a stable situation, but have to contend with

the

allure of a " you can have it all " mindset that is so very pervasive

here

in America.

Like you, I too happen to know several women who have opted to

remain

alone, some of them for more years than I care to recall. It's just

inconceivable to think of a man voluntarily doing the same thing. I

know

I wouldn't, and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't voluntarily do it

either.

Again, it just shows that the needs of men and women, again, on

average,

are different. One more simpler, one a bit more complex. Not better

or

worse, just different. In any event, the prospect of spending a

considerable portion alone without a significant other in your life

is

not something I look forward to with any sense of dignity. Indeed, I

see

that as so very sad.

More in a minute.

Salaam,

Mu

Zam- wrote:

Hey, I don't know if women are any more complicated then men are ,

many

women

just have different needs,and they might be a little more

numerous... I

think

the climate of independence , and the educational opportunities that

women

now have access to means that they aren't forced to remain in a bad

relationships where they feel unfulfilled as they may have in the

past,

or where a man is

there sole source of sustenance and income. Many are opting to not

get

married at all.

I think also , that as we mature and learn more about ourselves,

women

have

been able to actualize more about themselves and are more conscious

of

their

emotional needs, which are often neglected by many men in

relationships

and so

these women chose to break camp or remain single rather than get

locked

into an

unfullfilling situation.

I think that too often in our communities, many men who leave one

women

or

are divorced by an ex aren't looking to create another family as

much as

find

another women, another safe haven and hook up with a someone who

will

nurture

them. Inevitably the women becomes pregnant and therefore he has

another family

by default. Not sure if most men deliberately go after those

situations

more

than they just happen by circumstance and need.

I still dont believe that most guys prefer marriage to the single

life,

especially in our community, and im not knocking them....lol

" Mismatch " - From a Vedic Perspective... Mu'Min Bey

May 25, 2004 15:45 PDT

All,

While we're going back and forth here, I thought to throw this in

the

mix...

Many of you know that I am a Vedic astrologer, and have spent a

considerable amount of time immersed in that culture. Indeed, at

least

half of my entire clientele are Indian born. And the chief concern

the

majority of them have, is marriage.

As many of you know, in India, today, arranged marriage is very

common.

I am often called upon to " hookup " the charts of two people who have

yet

to meet in person; the parents of the bride and groom are usually

the

ones who do the legwork.

After doing this for some years now, and comparing it to what we are

discussing today, I think there is something to be said for their

worldview. Indians, overall, have a totally different understanding

of

marriage than the average American does today. The understand that

marriage is more than just about the hubbie and wifey, but rather it

is

a contract that impacts the entire family, community indeed even

nation.

Because of the great impact this institution makes on everyone, the

extended family in India takes an active and aggressive role in the

potential coming together of two people.

Because of the history of India, they have a great knack for finding

the

goodness in everything, no matter how bad. Most Indians, even today,

understand full well what their options are (or aren't, I should

say)

and therefore are content to get what they can and move forward.

They

have no illusions that they " can have it all " and so on. Their major

concern is in finding a mate who has a spiritual center, is kind,

and

has a similiar outlook on life.

For an Indian - even an Americanized one - the notion of divorce is

horrible. Thus one of the many reasons why so much work is put into

astrological matching two people for marriage. Indians value above

all

else, longevity of marriage, even if it comes at the price

of " pizzazz " ,

etc. Here in America, and increasingly moreso throughout the Western

world, people divorce at the drop of a hat. Which in turn, has a

disasterous effect on our Society as a whole.

The one thing I admire most about the Indian view of marriage is in

how

they have learned to manage expectations...to accept what can and

cannot

be done. Of course, this brings in the whole philosophy of Karma and

the

like, which in and of itself is anathema, even to those here in the

USA

who consider themselves " spiritual " ...they are far too Americanized

than

they are willing to admit and so while they may talk a mean game

about

spirituality and like, they really ain't buying all that Fate and

Karma

crap. Here in America, you can be whatever you want to be, no matter

who

don't like it, and no matter who it might impact. The Individual is

everything. Period.

So we see that Ego is rampant here in America with regard to

marriage

(and just about everything else for that matter)...think about it.

All

those bridal books, the ones that amount to the size of a phone

book...these are clearly for the bride, as is the large majority of

the

wedding ceremony. And, we can cite other things from the hubbie's

side

of the aisle. And we can go on.

While Zam continues to argue the notion that a number of women want

men

who are emotionally available and so on, again, it seems from the

data

presented by Hacker and others that that only seems to be only a

part of

the story. At least as important, is again, the sensibilities,

nuances

and out and out physical demands many women make of today's men.

A good example of this comes in the sexual arena. Much is well known

about the " minute man " thing, and how much attention this has gotten

in

recent years. And while there is something to be said for men

improving

in this area so as to be more satisfying to their mates, in all

fairness, a good bit can be said about the situation in reverse as

well.

True, most men aren't hung like a horse and can screw twice as long,

but

in fairness, as any man can attest to, there are a good number of

women

out there that, instead of looking like " da bomb " end up actually

being

" a bomb " in bed. And while it's true that a good number of men could

stand to improve in the romance department overall, we can also say

with

some degree of certainty, that there's a good number of women who

ain't

likely to be second coming of Vanessa Del Rio, either. The point

that

I'm making is that if you have unrealistic expectations in this - or

indeed, any area - you are only setting yourself and your

relationship

up for a major downfall, because those are ideals to which the vast

majority of people, at any time, anywhere, can only strive, but

rarely

achieve.

I think this is why the Vedic system of astrological compatibility

is in

many ways genious, because it evaluates the major areas of marital

life,

as well as the overall mental, emotional and physical state of the

couple in ways that even today's Western astrology cannot even think

about approaching. And the Indian way of life has more focus on

one's

duty to society - which includes the extended family - than it does

on

individual gratification.

I think it's something we as astrologers need to think about.

Salaam,

Mu

Zam- wrote:

In a message dated 5/25/2004 6:02:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

mumin- writes:> On top of this, instead of alot of women

recognizing what's

important -

a good provider, a good dad, someone who shows a basic level of

respect

and caring, a decent lover, a committed man, a loyal mate and lover

and

so on - many women make demands of men that are in many ways,

unrealistic. Further, in many ways, lots of women want men to think,

act

and see the world in the same way that they do.

Zam : I think that most women do want those very things and not much

more

than that, but they find it difficult to find a man who will be

those

things, and

not controlling, and not physically abusive, and not emotionally

distant

and

not insenstive to her feelings, and definitely not a

philanderer......I

really

dont think that women really are asking that much of men ,

especially if

you

see the types of relatonships that many women remain in simply

becasue

they

want to try and make it work out.It's in womens nature to make a man

'become " or

to push and prod him to actualize himself, thats a part of the

nurturing

process, however I odnt think that the average women has these

ridiculous demands , or expectations for the most part, even if some

of them might be

difficult

to get laong with in some ways.

More " Mismatch " & Astrological Thoughts - Zam, All Mu'Min Bey

May 26, 2004 13:54 PDT

Hi Zam, Everyone,

I just wanted to add a few more thoughts on this topic.

I think far too much is made of the headcase guys among us - the

abusers, the adulterers, the general knuckleheads. Please don't get

me

wrong, such beings do continue to exist, but I think if we're all

honest

with ourselves and each other, we would have to agree that such

behavior

has sharply declined over the past 25 years.

Since " The Burning Bed " , spousal abuse, for example, simply isn't

the

same animal it was prior to the 1980s. Today, it is far, far more

problematic for a man, any man, to assault a woman with impunity.

Stringent laws and the enforcement of those laws, make the lives of

men

who offend very difficult...and painful. Indeed, as the current

ordeal

of Kobe Bryant shows, just the accusation of Rape can ruin a man for

life.

In no way am I saying that women still don't get mistreated in the

most

brutal of ways...but let me offer an analogy. 50 years ago,

automotive

safety was virtually nonexistent...there weren't even safety belts

installed in cars back then, not to mention shatter-proof glass,

rollover bars and the rest of it. 50 years later, we have cars made

of

materials that protect the passengers from the worst of the impact

from

an oncoming vehicle...most cars today have airbags standard, in some

cases on the driver's, passenger's, and sides...and safety belts are

as

strong today as ever. As someone who has walked away from a number

of

car accidents, I can personally attest to the vast improvements of

auto

safety over the years. Now, does that mean that people cannot still

be

killed in car crashes? Certainly not - just making the point that

things

HAVE improved - markedly.

I make the same argument with respect to our current topic on women.

So I think we kind of do ourselves a disservice to focus on what I

consider to be in many ways red herring topics...and again, as

Hacker

points out in the book, the issue isn't one of life or death, or

financial survival, but again one of the real or perceived lack of

shared sensibilities, values and experiences that today's women

expect

and demand of their potential mates.

It is very important for us to focus the debate here NOT on the

working

class man or woman - in the main, that class of people simply don't

have

these problems. Rather, and I think this is important for us to

consider

as astrologers (for most of us anyway, because our clients tend to

come

from the middle class) - the issue is coming from that growing

sector of

upwardly mobile, college educated female class. Trying to " mix and

match " the classes in this regard only muddies the waters and gets

us

nowhere.

I wanted to challenge Zam's notion of men hooking up with women

after

divorce because they want to be " mommied " - and to do that I'll once

again use my own parents as prima facia examples.

My Dad had a family down in Savannah, GA, and for reasons that are

still

not entirely clear, at some point he left them and came up North to

find

work, like many Black men did. It was the 1960s, and my Dad did

indeed

find work as a longshoreman up in Brooklyn, New York City. He was

paid

very well, getting himself a very nice apartment, and an all white

Cadillac, which, for those of you old to remember, was the singature

ride to have.

Clearly, my Dad had everything to gain and nothing to loose - he was

a

single man, living it up, and could - and did - have access to just

about any woman he wanted out in NYC, without having to marry any of

them. Why then, did he give all that up just to get attached again?

Especially to a woman who had an infant child?

It was clear to see how my Dad got " hooked " - my Mom was a very good

looking woman back in her day. A zaftig " Redbone " (that's old Black

slang for a light-skinned Black woman) with a wide, beautiful smile,

my

Mom was all tits, thighs and ass - and on top of all that, she was a

nurse, which meant she had to wear those white uniforms that always

seem

to be so form-fitting on the ladies. My Dad was in Philly visiting

friends and saw my Mom crossing Broad St. one early Spring day in

1969

in that nurse's uniform - and damned near crashed his Coup De Ville.

He

pulled over, got her attention, and the rest, as they say, is

history.

It's quite possible that my Dad could have had his way with my Mom

without having to marry her - at the very least, he could have had

his

way with as many other ladies. But he chose to marry her, again,

with

child - and went on to sire three more kids with the same woman.

That

does NOT sound like a fear of committment, or the need for mommying,

Zam. In fact, that falls right in line with what we all know accross

America - that most men WANT to have a family, WANT to have

committment.

I think that my Mom and Dad would have had a much better marriage

than

they did IF they had the proper counseling - and I don't mean the

one or

two sessions that pass for " pre-marital counseling " that some

churches

and the like do nowadays, but real, sensitive, ongoing counseling

for my

parents. It would have helped them better manage and bridge the age

differences, the regional differences, and the sexual differences.

It

would have also helped my Dad heal from his own issues growing up,

to

understand and appreciate his sexual drive and needs so as not to

become

a slave to them, and to find better outlets for his awesome

mathematical

skills and talents other than compulsive gambling. But, given what

they

had to work with, and the times in which they lived, I think they

did

alright - all of their children are considered by most people who

know

any or all of them to be intelligent, caring human beings. For all

of

their problems, they had to have done something right.

I agree wholeheartedly with Zam insofar as the " slipping " of values

in

our current times are concerned. As more people become more involved

with " getting theirs " many of the things we all grew up have fallen

by

the wayside. Things that held our communities and families together.

In the hood, one of the fixtures was " Big Momma " , the eldest Black

woman

in the area. She was often the nosiest person on the block, looking

into

and after everyone's kids...and she was often the " go-to " person

whom

everyone came to to discuss important matters like marriage and

relationship. For those of you who are White and into the New Age

thing,

you'll recognize the archetype as the " Crone " or Wise Woman. And you

can

find out more about " Big Momma " by checking out the film Soul Food.

Big Momma was around long before there was an Oprah, or an Iyanla,

or a

Dr. Phil or Dr. Joyce Brothers...and my Mom's heart to heart,

pre-marital talk with our family's " Big Momma " , my great-

grandmother,

really helped my Mom I think. Unfortunately, not just in the Black

community, but it seems in all communities in America, Big Momma

seems

to be a thing of the past. That's why it is my contention that we as

astrologers, female and male alike, have to step in as " Big Momma " .

I have presented these and other topics of discussion because I feel

they are vitally important for us to consider as astrologers. Since

the

Uranus-Pluto conjunction in the sign of Virgo in the 1960s (and the

more

recent Uranus-Neptune conjunction in Capricorn in the 1990s - note

how

in both cases, the planet Uranus was involved and the Signs involved

were Feminine), norms and roles, accross the board, have

dramatically

changed. Without doubt, many things have improved - but many

unintended

consequences have occured as well. The current " Mismatch " thread is

one

such manifestation of those consequences.

I belong to at least 20 different astrological forums and listservs.

To

date, NONE of them have grappled with these issues in the way and

manner

that this one, the Pan Astrological Forum does. Many forums,

desgined

and built as little more than fertile marketing fields, don't

approach

anything that doesn't fit into their own little backyards. The

owners of

those forums are far too busy hawking their latest books and

trolling

for new clients. And the other forums that exist, usually conduct

arid

discussions, of interest only to astrologers - and a small segment

of

them at that.

I wanted to air these issues out and get all of us thinking hard

about

these things, because people come to us for advice and guidance, and

I

feel that we have to be on top of our game if we're ever going to be

of

any real and meaningful help to our clients. Whether you agree or

disagree, my hope is that all of this has made you think.

Salaam,

Mu

May 27, 2004

Hmm...so it's all the fault of women. Just hand me an apple and call me Eve.

Forgive me if you were a point other than this - I gave up reading a third

of the way down as it was getting repetitive.

May 27, 2004

Mu and All

I would like to investigate this furthur. Using charts for

compatability and marriage issues. To really make it a group

learning for better knowledge and help.

Just as the plea that came in a few days ago of one wondering why

the interpetation of marriage prediction had not been fullfilled.

Is there an interest as a group to pick up these charts and study

them as a whole and then comment back and forth with observation and

learning views and tools?

Debra

, " Bettina " <chiria@n...>

wrote:

> Mu ...

>

> You make a lot of good points. Since the changes brought about by

the

> feminist movement (and those changes were way overdue), women (I'm

talking

> about American, middle class, and I will say White [because that's

mostly

> whom I know] women for the most part) want and expect the same

things that

> men have: good pay, good education, a chance to develop expertise

in some

> area .... but (and I believe you alluded to this), they don't want

to marry

> down. They want a guy who makes at least as much money as they do

and has

> at least as much education. A male dr. will marry a female nurse,

but how

> many female drs. will marry male nurses? A few, probably, but

it's the

> exception. It's a matter of wanting the best of both worlds.

This bugs me

> because there are plenty of nice, good natured guys out there who

would make

> wonderful husbands and fathers who don't make in the 6 figures and

have a

> membership for the country club.

>

> It's my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that in the Black

community

> it's more common for a woman who's employed as, say, a teacher or

in a

> management position to be married to a guy who's a physical

laborer. And

> why shouldn't it be that way? It can work just as well as the

reverse.

>

> I'd like to add a few things about Indian marriages. There are

some good

> points to planned marriages (it they're planned well), but I've

known many

> Indian people and been told (by the wives) that for a wife to

leave her

> husband for ANY reason, even if he's physically abusive, is social

suicide.

> If the man leaves his wife (or even dies) and she wants to

remarry, that

> puts her on the moral level of a prostitute.

>

> One other thing (a little off topic, but not entirely): I've

noticed that

> men who are widowed when they're young or middle aged (sometimes

even old)

> will usually remarry, or at least have a new sweetie, within a

year or two.

> When a woman is widowed, it's a long time before she remarries, if

ever.

> Why do you think this is? Do men need wives more than women need

husbands?

> Or ... does a man want a generic wife and a women is more aware of

the

> individual traits and characteristics of a man? Do women grieve

more or

> differently from men? Do men stuff their grief? Just wondering.

>

> ... Bettina

>

> MuMin Bey [mumin_bey]

> Wednesday, May 26, 2004 3:00 PM

>

> Astrology and The Gender Divide:

Discourses

> On the State of Our Relationship Art

>

> Astrology and The Gender Divide: Discourses Upon the State of Our

> Relationship Art

>

> Wed, May 26, 2004

>

> Because a great number of people have contacted me in gratitude for

> my humble writings on the question of relationship, marriage and so

> on, I have decided to share these writings which originally

appeared

> on the Pan Astrological Forum. What appears below are a series of

> thoughts and opinions by me and other respected members of the PAF.

> I am hopeful that they spark thought and promote meaningful

> discussion on the matters discussed therein.

>

> Very Interesting Book: " Mismatch " Mu'Min Bey

> May 24, 2004 15:53 PDT

>

> Very Interesting Book: " Mismatch "

>

> Hi All,

>

> Since there tends to be alot of discussion on relationships both

> here

> and elsewhere, I thought to bring this up.

>

> It's about a very good book I recently read called Mismatch, by

> Andrew

> Hacker, who also wrote Two Nations. Mismatch deals with the

> increasing

> gulf between the sexes, of all colors, here in America.

>

> Among other things, Hacker suggests that, since 1980, women are the

> ones

>

> who initiate divorce, with the majority of men wanting to keep the

> marriages intact. He also cites the fact that while women have gone

> on

> into higher education, more and more men, again of all colors, have

> not.

>

> Put this together with increased legal, sexual and social freedoms

> of

> women, and we can see some of the reasons why marriage as an

> institution

> continues on a downward spiral.

>

> Hacker suggests, based on his research and findings, that the major

> reason why things are the way they are right now is because many

> women

> are not getting men who meet their standards - and it all doesn't

> have

> to do with money alone, although that is a factor. Rather, it has

> more

> to do with lack of shared values, which can happen when one goes on

> to

> college and the other does not...about men not having the

> sensibilities

> today's women expect, and so on.

>

> Interestingly, Hacker also points out in the book that Black people

> have

>

> seemed to adapt to these conditions...afterall, it is a well known

> fact

> that far more Black women have educational degrees (and all that

> comes

> with it) than Black men, on average. He notes that while Black

> people

> certainly have problems in this area, when compared to Whites, we

> have

> done much better. Hacker also predicts that, if the current

> situation

> continues among the White population, they will surpass our current

> marriage/divorce/our of wedlock rate (again, keep in mind, please,

> we're

> talking about educated, upwardly mobile WHITE WOMEN, NOT teenage

> moms of

> the kind you would see on a Jerry Springer show) - and he suggests

> that

> perhaps the White community could learn something from ours in this

> respect.

>

> Hacker also deals with a very important, sensitive question - what

> does

> it mean to be a man, today, in 2004? In an age where more and more

> people work in the office, not the fields; where more and more

women

> are

>

> getting the jobs once the sole province of men; and where there are

> fewer and fewer outlets for traditional male behavior (hunting, for

> example, but there are many others)? Put this together with the

> skyrocketing sales of Viagra, all the " cops " TV shows, the Gangsta

> Rap

> movement in the Black community, and the all-pervasive Sports

> Economy

> here in the USA, it all points to some serious questions that need

> answering. Perhaps a major part of the problem, is that men have

yet

> to

> define for themselves, what it means to be a man. From all that I

> have

> seen thus far, it appears that it is Women are defining the

concept.

>

> More and more women are waiting longer and longer to have kids, to

> marry, and so on...many women never have kids and/or marry at all

> (and

> this is something that we as Black folk know very

well)...meanwhile,

> history the world over has shown what happens when you an

> unsocialized,

> large, virile male population with no sense of mission in life.

> Again,

> as Black folks, we know about this in ways that the White community

> are

> only now beginning to realize. In the meantime, Marriage, Family,

> and by

> extension, Community and Nation, are falling by the wayside.

>

> What I like about Hacker's works is he doesn't take it upon himself

> to

> solve the world's problems - he leaves such things to others. What

> he

> does is lays out the data, brings perspective to it, and leaves it

> to

> the rest of us to hash out. I've only touched on a few points he

> makes

> in the book, and I would highly urge everyone reading this to check

> it

> out.

>

> Salaam,

> Mu

>

> " Mismatch " - Zam Mu'Min Bey

> May 25, 2004 13:55 PDT

>

> Hi Zam,

>

> Without question, women have historically been victim to ruthless

> beatings and the like. I know about spousal abuse very well, having

> witnessed it in various forms over the years, involving female

loved

> ones. Your point here has considerable merit.

>

> However, since 1980, spousal abuse awareness, coupled with legal

> action,

> has reduced things considerably. This is not to say that spousal

> abuse

> has disappeared, but it IS to say that it's far more problematic

for

> a

> man to assault a woman today in 2004 than it was 30 years ago.

>

> That being said, and hacker points this out in his book, many women

> are

> opting for divorce not because of abuse and/or infidelity, but

> rather

> because of what they perceive as the lack of shared experiences and

> sensibilities. Because today's climate is more conducive to woman's

> independence, more and more women are opting out of marriage for

> reasons

> that, if were 50 years ago, our grandmothers would look at these

> women

> as if they had a eye in the middle of their foreheads.

>

> Furthermore, the stats also clearly points to the fact that most

> men,

> who do not initiate divorce, usually start up families

> elsewhere...in

> the Black community, for example, it is well known that a man can

go

> off

> and either start up a new family or join an existing one. I think

> this

> clearly debunks the notion that men are afraid to commit. Rather,

> this

> is about expectations, particularly on the female side of the

aisle.

>

> As Hacker points out in his book, men's needs simply aren't as

> complex

> as most women's...I know that's not a PC thing to say, but for the

> most

> part, for people who have lived for any length of time, they know

> what

> i'm saying is true, for the most part. Most men want a fairly

> attractive

> woman who is nice, fairly good in bed and can cook a decent meal.

> That

> she also can burn it up in the corporate boardroom, or go off into

a

> detailed analysis of Beowulf is a plus, but such things simply

> aren't a

> priority for most men.

>

> Because today's world is one that is much more focused on the

> college

> experience, everyone wants to think that they are more

sophisticated

> than our forebears...and there is something to be said for this

> view, in

> comparison to our forebears. However, what many of us - and I do

> have to

> say in this case, women in the main - fail to take into account, is

> that

> human beings are for the most part, the same today we were a couple

> thousand years ago.

>

> My personal view is that many marriages and relationships fail

> because

> of failure to manage expectations - and again I have to direct this

> observation in the main toward the female side of the aisle. In my

> astrological work, I cannot recount how many female clients bemoan

> their

> inability to find a " suitable mate " ...about the supposed lack of

> " eligible Black men " ...and about how adamant these women were about

> not

> " settling for less " . Yet they completely dismiss or overlook out of

> hand

> the many men who, while they may not have an MBA and earn 50K-

> plus/year,

> or be able to go through the motions at a wine and cheese affair,

> are

> good people nonetheless. That I never have heard such concerns from

> my

> male clients tells me that this tends to be more of a female

concern

> and

> issue.

>

> When my Mom was dating my Dad, there were tensions; she was a 19

> year

> old nurse with a brand new baby boy (me! ), living with her

> grandmother and trying to figure things out. My Dad was dating her,

> and

> pledged his love for her and her child, although that child was not

> biologically his own. There was a considerable age difference

> between

> the two - my Dad was 35 at the time. And, because my Mom came from

> the

> North, and my Dad from the South, there was regional differences

and

> the

> like. And, in the mind of my grandmother, my Mom's mom, my Dad was

> hardly a catch - afterall, he was dark skinned, bald and had the

> obligatory gold tooth that so many Black folk from the South had

> then

> and now.

>

> My Mom sat down with my great-grandmother, and they had a heart to

> heart

> talk, the kind we don't much about these days. My GGM told my Mom

> the

> following:

>

> " Diane, I understand that Bob may not be all that you want him to

> be -

> but he loves you and that child. And you need a father for your

son.

> You'll learn to love him " .

>

> My Mom and my Dad married on April 1, 1969, in my GGM's living

room.

>

> Make no mistake - my Mom and Dad had their share of problems, many

> of

> which I have recounted here and elsewhere - but if there is one

> thing I

> will always admire and respect about my Dad, is that he loved a

> woman

> enough to take her and her newborn child into his heart. And like

my

> GGM

> said, my Mom did indeed " learn to love " my Dad.

>

> I guess my point is that today, such things would sound alien...and

> I

> guess in many ways they are now. Which is a true shame, because

alot

> of

> relationships and marriages have needlessly fallen apart, in large

> part

> nowadays, because of unrealistic expectations on the part of many

> " liberated " women.

>

> That's my spiel for today.

>

> Salaam,

> Mu

>

> RE: " Mismatch " - Zam 2 Mu'Min Bey

> May 25, 2004 15:02 PDT

>

> Hi Zam,

>

> I think it would benefit you if you checked out Hacker's book. In

> it, he

> discuss the very thing we are discussing right now. Today's woman's

> needs are, all things being equal, simply more involved than

today's

> man. I'm not one for simplicity, but in this case, all things being

> equal, it is.

>

> On top of this, instead of alot of women recognizing what's

> important -

> a good provider, a good dad, someone who shows a basic level of

> respect

> and caring, a decent lover, a committed man, a loyal mate and lover

> and

> so on - many women make demands of men that are in many ways,

> unrealistic. Further, in many ways, lots of women want men to

think,

> act

> and see the world in the same way that they do.

>

> The reality, regardless of the reasons behind it, is that men who

> divorce almost always start up another family somewhere else - more

> often than not, with younger women than their first wives. This,

> along

> with the higher incidence of interracial marriage (the highest

> percentage being White men/Asian women) suggests that these men

want

> things that their White female counterparts either can't or won't

> fulfill...in fact, the major reason cited by White men who marry

> Asian

> women is that they are perceived as less

> aggressive/assertive/hostile/demanding than White women. Sounds

> familiar, doesn't it? It's the very same thing alot of Black men

say

> about Black women. And, in all fairness, while this isn't the PC

> thing

> to say, there is some truth behind it all.

>

> Men can get nuturing without having to get married, especially

> nowadays

> Zam...that so many men do remarry, says that it's about more than

> just

> getting mommied. I think the dirty little secret is, that alot of

> guys

> do want to settle into a stable situation, but have to contend with

> the

> allure of a " you can have it all " mindset that is so very pervasive

> here

> in America.

>

> Like you, I too happen to know several women who have opted to

> remain

> alone, some of them for more years than I care to recall. It's just

> inconceivable to think of a man voluntarily doing the same thing. I

> know

> I wouldn't, and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't voluntarily do it

> either.

> Again, it just shows that the needs of men and women, again, on

> average,

> are different. One more simpler, one a bit more complex. Not better

> or

> worse, just different. In any event, the prospect of spending a

> considerable portion alone without a significant other in your life

> is

> not something I look forward to with any sense of dignity. Indeed,

I

> see

> that as so very sad.

>

> More in a minute.

>

> Salaam,

> Mu

>

> Zam- wrote:

> Hey, I don't know if women are any more complicated then men

are ,

> many

> women

> just have different needs,and they might be a little more

> numerous... I

> think

> the climate of independence , and the educational opportunities

that

> women

> now have access to means that they aren't forced to remain in a bad

> relationships where they feel unfulfilled as they may have in the

> past,

> or where a man is

> there sole source of sustenance and income. Many are opting to not

> get

> married at all.

>

> I think also , that as we mature and learn more about ourselves,

> women

> have

> been able to actualize more about themselves and are more conscious

> of

> their

> emotional needs, which are often neglected by many men in

> relationships

> and so

> these women chose to break camp or remain single rather than get

> locked

> into an

> unfullfilling situation.

>

> I think that too often in our communities, many men who leave one

> women

> or

> are divorced by an ex aren't looking to create another family as

> much as

> find

> another women, another safe haven and hook up with a someone who

> will

> nurture

> them. Inevitably the women becomes pregnant and therefore he has

> another family

> by default. Not sure if most men deliberately go after those

> situations

> more

> than they just happen by circumstance and need.

>

> I still dont believe that most guys prefer marriage to the single

> life,

> especially in our community, and im not knocking them....lol

>

> " Mismatch " - From a Vedic Perspective... Mu'Min Bey

> May 25, 2004 15:45 PDT

>

> All,

>

> While we're going back and forth here, I thought to throw this in

> the

> mix...

>

> Many of you know that I am a Vedic astrologer, and have spent a

> considerable amount of time immersed in that culture. Indeed, at

> least

> half of my entire clientele are Indian born. And the chief concern

> the

> majority of them have, is marriage.

>

> As many of you know, in India, today, arranged marriage is very

> common.

> I am often called upon to " hookup " the charts of two people who

have

> yet

> to meet in person; the parents of the bride and groom are usually

> the

> ones who do the legwork.

>

> After doing this for some years now, and comparing it to what we

are

> discussing today, I think there is something to be said for their

> worldview. Indians, overall, have a totally different understanding

> of

> marriage than the average American does today. The understand that

> marriage is more than just about the hubbie and wifey, but rather

it

> is

> a contract that impacts the entire family, community indeed even

> nation.

> Because of the great impact this institution makes on everyone, the

> extended family in India takes an active and aggressive role in the

> potential coming together of two people.

>

> Because of the history of India, they have a great knack for

finding

> the

> goodness in everything, no matter how bad. Most Indians, even

today,

> understand full well what their options are (or aren't, I should

> say)

> and therefore are content to get what they can and move forward.

> They

> have no illusions that they " can have it all " and so on. Their

major

> concern is in finding a mate who has a spiritual center, is kind,

> and

> has a similiar outlook on life.

>

> For an Indian - even an Americanized one - the notion of divorce is

> horrible. Thus one of the many reasons why so much work is put into

> astrological matching two people for marriage. Indians value above

> all

> else, longevity of marriage, even if it comes at the price

> of " pizzazz " ,

> etc. Here in America, and increasingly moreso throughout the

Western

> world, people divorce at the drop of a hat. Which in turn, has a

> disasterous effect on our Society as a whole.

>

> The one thing I admire most about the Indian view of marriage is in

> how

> they have learned to manage expectations...to accept what can and

> cannot

> be done. Of course, this brings in the whole philosophy of Karma

and

> the

> like, which in and of itself is anathema, even to those here in the

> USA

> who consider themselves " spiritual " ...they are far too Americanized

> than

> they are willing to admit and so while they may talk a mean game

> about

> spirituality and like, they really ain't buying all that Fate and

> Karma

> crap. Here in America, you can be whatever you want to be, no

matter

> who

> don't like it, and no matter who it might impact. The Individual is

> everything. Period.

>

> So we see that Ego is rampant here in America with regard to

> marriage

> (and just about everything else for that matter)...think about it.

> All

> those bridal books, the ones that amount to the size of a phone

> book...these are clearly for the bride, as is the large majority of

> the

> wedding ceremony. And, we can cite other things from the hubbie's

> side

> of the aisle. And we can go on.

>

> While Zam continues to argue the notion that a number of women want

> men

> who are emotionally available and so on, again, it seems from the

> data

> presented by Hacker and others that that only seems to be only a

> part of

> the story. At least as important, is again, the sensibilities,

> nuances

> and out and out physical demands many women make of today's men.

>

> A good example of this comes in the sexual arena. Much is well

known

> about the " minute man " thing, and how much attention this has

gotten

> in

> recent years. And while there is something to be said for men

> improving

> in this area so as to be more satisfying to their mates, in all

> fairness, a good bit can be said about the situation in reverse as

> well.

> True, most men aren't hung like a horse and can screw twice as

long,

> but

> in fairness, as any man can attest to, there are a good number of

> women

> out there that, instead of looking like " da bomb " end up actually

> being

> " a bomb " in bed. And while it's true that a good number of men

could

> stand to improve in the romance department overall, we can also say

> with

> some degree of certainty, that there's a good number of women who

> ain't

> likely to be second coming of Vanessa Del Rio, either. The point

> that

> I'm making is that if you have unrealistic expectations in this -

or

> indeed, any area - you are only setting yourself and your

> relationship

> up for a major downfall, because those are ideals to which the vast

> majority of people, at any time, anywhere, can only strive, but

> rarely

> achieve.

>

> I think this is why the Vedic system of astrological compatibility

> is in

> many ways genious, because it evaluates the major areas of marital

> life,

> as well as the overall mental, emotional and physical state of the

> couple in ways that even today's Western astrology cannot even

think

> about approaching. And the Indian way of life has more focus on

> one's

> duty to society - which includes the extended family - than it does

> on

> individual gratification.

>

> I think it's something we as astrologers need to think about.

>

> Salaam,

> Mu

>

> Zam- wrote:

> In a message dated 5/25/2004 6:02:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> mumin- writes:> On top of this, instead of alot of women

> recognizing what's

> important -

> a good provider, a good dad, someone who shows a basic level of

> respect

> and caring, a decent lover, a committed man, a loyal mate and lover

> and

> so on - many women make demands of men that are in many ways,

> unrealistic. Further, in many ways, lots of women want men to

think,

> act

>

> and see the world in the same way that they do.

> Zam : I think that most women do want those very things and not

much

> more

> than that, but they find it difficult to find a man who will be

> those

> things, and

> not controlling, and not physically abusive, and not emotionally

> distant

> and

> not insenstive to her feelings, and definitely not a

> philanderer......I

> really

> dont think that women really are asking that much of men ,

> especially if

> you

> see the types of relatonships that many women remain in simply

> becasue

> they

> want to try and make it work out.It's in womens nature to make a

man

> 'become " or

> to push and prod him to actualize himself, thats a part of the

> nurturing

> process, however I odnt think that the average women has these

> ridiculous demands , or expectations for the most part, even if

some

> of them might be

> difficult

> to get laong with in some ways.

>

> More " Mismatch " & Astrological Thoughts - Zam, All Mu'Min Bey

> May 26, 2004 13:54 PDT

>

> Hi Zam, Everyone,

>

> I just wanted to add a few more thoughts on this topic.

>

> I think far too much is made of the headcase guys among us - the

> abusers, the adulterers, the general knuckleheads. Please don't get

> me

> wrong, such beings do continue to exist, but I think if we're all

> honest

> with ourselves and each other, we would have to agree that such

> behavior

> has sharply declined over the past 25 years.

>

> Since " The Burning Bed " , spousal abuse, for example, simply isn't

> the

> same animal it was prior to the 1980s. Today, it is far, far more

> problematic for a man, any man, to assault a woman with impunity.

> Stringent laws and the enforcement of those laws, make the lives of

> men

> who offend very difficult...and painful. Indeed, as the current

> ordeal

> of Kobe Bryant shows, just the accusation of Rape can ruin a man

for

> life.

>

> In no way am I saying that women still don't get mistreated in the

> most

> brutal of ways...but let me offer an analogy. 50 years ago,

> automotive

> safety was virtually nonexistent...there weren't even safety belts

> installed in cars back then, not to mention shatter-proof glass,

> rollover bars and the rest of it. 50 years later, we have cars made

> of

> materials that protect the passengers from the worst of the impact

> from

> an oncoming vehicle...most cars today have airbags standard, in

some

> cases on the driver's, passenger's, and sides...and safety belts

are

> as

> strong today as ever. As someone who has walked away from a number

> of

> car accidents, I can personally attest to the vast improvements of

> auto

> safety over the years. Now, does that mean that people cannot still

> be

> killed in car crashes? Certainly not - just making the point that

> things

> HAVE improved - markedly.

>

> I make the same argument with respect to our current topic on

women.

>

> So I think we kind of do ourselves a disservice to focus on what I

> consider to be in many ways red herring topics...and again, as

> Hacker

> points out in the book, the issue isn't one of life or death, or

> financial survival, but again one of the real or perceived lack of

> shared sensibilities, values and experiences that today's women

> expect

> and demand of their potential mates.

>

> It is very important for us to focus the debate here NOT on the

> working

> class man or woman - in the main, that class of people simply don't

> have

> these problems. Rather, and I think this is important for us to

> consider

> as astrologers (for most of us anyway, because our clients tend to

> come

> from the middle class) - the issue is coming from that growing

> sector of

> upwardly mobile, college educated female class. Trying to " mix and

> match " the classes in this regard only muddies the waters and gets

> us

> nowhere.

>

> I wanted to challenge Zam's notion of men hooking up with women

> after

> divorce because they want to be " mommied " - and to do that I'll

once

> again use my own parents as prima facia examples.

>

> My Dad had a family down in Savannah, GA, and for reasons that are

> still

> not entirely clear, at some point he left them and came up North to

> find

> work, like many Black men did. It was the 1960s, and my Dad did

> indeed

> find work as a longshoreman up in Brooklyn, New York City. He was

> paid

> very well, getting himself a very nice apartment, and an all white

> Cadillac, which, for those of you old to remember, was the

singature

> ride to have.

>

> Clearly, my Dad had everything to gain and nothing to loose - he

was

> a

> single man, living it up, and could - and did - have access to just

> about any woman he wanted out in NYC, without having to marry any

of

> them. Why then, did he give all that up just to get attached again?

> Especially to a woman who had an infant child?

>

> It was clear to see how my Dad got " hooked " - my Mom was a very

good

> looking woman back in her day. A zaftig " Redbone " (that's old Black

> slang for a light-skinned Black woman) with a wide, beautiful

smile,

> my

> Mom was all tits, thighs and ass - and on top of all that, she was

a

> nurse, which meant she had to wear those white uniforms that always

> seem

> to be so form-fitting on the ladies. My Dad was in Philly visiting

> friends and saw my Mom crossing Broad St. one early Spring day in

> 1969

> in that nurse's uniform - and damned near crashed his Coup De

Ville.

> He

> pulled over, got her attention, and the rest, as they say, is

> history.

>

> It's quite possible that my Dad could have had his way with my Mom

> without having to marry her - at the very least, he could have had

> his

> way with as many other ladies. But he chose to marry her, again,

> with

> child - and went on to sire three more kids with the same woman.

> That

> does NOT sound like a fear of committment, or the need for

mommying,

> Zam. In fact, that falls right in line with what we all know

accross

> America - that most men WANT to have a family, WANT to have

> committment.

>

> I think that my Mom and Dad would have had a much better marriage

> than

> they did IF they had the proper counseling - and I don't mean the

> one or

> two sessions that pass for " pre-marital counseling " that some

> churches

> and the like do nowadays, but real, sensitive, ongoing counseling

> for my

> parents. It would have helped them better manage and bridge the age

> differences, the regional differences, and the sexual differences.

> It

> would have also helped my Dad heal from his own issues growing up,

> to

> understand and appreciate his sexual drive and needs so as not to

> become

> a slave to them, and to find better outlets for his awesome

> mathematical

> skills and talents other than compulsive gambling. But, given what

> they

> had to work with, and the times in which they lived, I think they

> did

> alright - all of their children are considered by most people who

> know

> any or all of them to be intelligent, caring human beings. For all

> of

> their problems, they had to have done something right.

>

> I agree wholeheartedly with Zam insofar as the " slipping " of values

> in

> our current times are concerned. As more people become more

involved

> with " getting theirs " many of the things we all grew up have fallen

> by

> the wayside. Things that held our communities and families

together.

>

> In the hood, one of the fixtures was " Big Momma " , the eldest Black

> woman

> in the area. She was often the nosiest person on the block, looking

> into

> and after everyone's kids...and she was often the " go-to " person

> whom

> everyone came to to discuss important matters like marriage and

> relationship. For those of you who are White and into the New Age

> thing,

> you'll recognize the archetype as the " Crone " or Wise Woman. And

you

> can

> find out more about " Big Momma " by checking out the film Soul Food.

>

> Big Momma was around long before there was an Oprah, or an Iyanla,

> or a

> Dr. Phil or Dr. Joyce Brothers...and my Mom's heart to heart,

> pre-marital talk with our family's " Big Momma " , my great-

> grandmother,

> really helped my Mom I think. Unfortunately, not just in the Black

> community, but it seems in all communities in America, Big Momma

> seems

> to be a thing of the past. That's why it is my contention that we

as

> astrologers, female and male alike, have to step in as " Big Momma " .

>

> I have presented these and other topics of discussion because I

feel

> they are vitally important for us to consider as astrologers. Since

> the

> Uranus-Pluto conjunction in the sign of Virgo in the 1960s (and the

> more

> recent Uranus-Neptune conjunction in Capricorn in the 1990s - note

> how

> in both cases, the planet Uranus was involved and the Signs

involved

> were Feminine), norms and roles, accross the board, have

> dramatically

> changed. Without doubt, many things have improved - but many

> unintended

> consequences have occured as well. The current " Mismatch " thread is

> one

> such manifestation of those consequences.

>

> I belong to at least 20 different astrological forums and

listservs.

> To

> date, NONE of them have grappled with these issues in the way and

> manner

> that this one, the Pan Astrological Forum does. Many forums,

> desgined

> and built as little more than fertile marketing fields, don't

> approach

> anything that doesn't fit into their own little backyards. The

> owners of

> those forums are far too busy hawking their latest books and

> trolling

> for new clients. And the other forums that exist, usually conduct

> arid

> discussions, of interest only to astrologers - and a small segment

> of

> them at that.

>

> I wanted to air these issues out and get all of us thinking hard

> about

> these things, because people come to us for advice and guidance,

and

> I

> feel that we have to be on top of our game if we're ever going to

be

> of

> any real and meaningful help to our clients. Whether you agree or

> disagree, my hope is that all of this has made you think.

>

> Salaam,

> Mu

May 27, 2004

, " dqm51 " <dqm51@s...> wrote:

> Mu and All

>

> I would like to investigate this furthur. Using charts for

> compatability and marriage issues. To really make it a group

> learning for better knowledge and help.

>

> Just as the plea that came in a few days ago of one wondering why

> the interpetation of marriage prediction had not been fullfilled.

>

> Is there an interest as a group to pick up these charts and study

> them as a whole and then comment back and forth with observation

and

> learning views and tools?

>

> Debra

>

> , " Bettina " <chiria@n...>

> wrote:

> > Mu ...

> >

> > You make a lot of good points. Since the changes brought about

by

> the

> > feminist movement (and those changes were way overdue), women

(I'm

> talking

> > about American, middle class, and I will say White [because

that's

> mostly

> > whom I know] women for the most part) want and expect the same

> things that

> > men have: good pay, good education, a chance to develop

expertise

> in some

> > area .... but (and I believe you alluded to this), they don't

want

> to marry

> > down. They want a guy who makes at least as much money as they

do

> and has

> > at least as much education. A male dr. will marry a female

nurse,

> but how

> > many female drs. will marry male nurses? A few, probably, but

> it's the

> > exception. It's a matter of wanting the best of both worlds.

> This bugs me

> > because there are plenty of nice, good natured guys out there

who

> would make

> > wonderful husbands and fathers who don't make in the 6 figures

and

> have a

> > membership for the country club.

> >

> > It's my understanding (correct me if I'm wrong) that in the

Black

> community

> > it's more common for a woman who's employed as, say, a teacher

or

> in a

> > management position to be married to a guy who's a physical

> laborer. And

> > why shouldn't it be that way? It can work just as well as the

> reverse.

> >

> > I'd like to add a few things about Indian marriages. There are

> some good

> > points to planned marriages (it they're planned well), but I've

> known many

> > Indian people and been told (by the wives) that for a wife to

> leave her

> > husband for ANY reason, even if he's physically abusive, is

social

> suicide.

> > If the man leaves his wife (or even dies) and she wants to

> remarry, that

> > puts her on the moral level of a prostitute.

> >

> > One other thing (a little off topic, but not entirely): I've

> noticed that

> > men who are widowed when they're young or middle aged (sometimes

> even old)

> > will usually remarry, or at least have a new sweetie, within a

> year or two.

> > When a woman is widowed, it's a long time before she remarries,

if

> ever.

> > Why do you think this is? Do men need wives more than women

need

> husbands?

> > Or ... does a man want a generic wife and a women is more aware

of

> the

> > individual traits and characteristics of a man? Do women grieve

> more or

> > differently from men? Do men stuff their grief? Just wondering.

> >

> > ... Bettina

> >

> > MuMin Bey [mumin_bey]

> > Wednesday, May 26, 2004 3:00 PM

> >

> > Astrology and The Gender Divide:

> Discourses

> > On the State of Our Relationship Art

> >

> > Astrology and The Gender Divide: Discourses Upon the State of Our

> > Relationship Art

> >

> > Wed, May 26, 2004

> >

> > Because a great number of people have contacted me in gratitude

for

> > my humble writings on the question of relationship, marriage and

so

> > on, I have decided to share these writings which originally

> appeared

> > on the Pan Astrological Forum. What appears below are a series of

> > thoughts and opinions by me and other respected members of the

PAF.

> > I am hopeful that they spark thought and promote meaningful

> > discussion on the matters discussed therein.

> >

> > Very Interesting Book: " Mismatch " Mu'Min Bey

> > May 24, 2004 15:53 PDT

> >

> > Very Interesting Book: " Mismatch "

> >

> > Hi All,

> >

> > Since there tends to be alot of discussion on relationships both

> > here

> > and elsewhere, I thought to bring this up.

> >

> > It's about a very good book I recently read called Mismatch, by

> > Andrew

> > Hacker, who also wrote Two Nations. Mismatch deals with the

> > increasing

> > gulf between the sexes, of all colors, here in America.

> >

> > Among other things, Hacker suggests that, since 1980, women are

the

> > ones

> >

> > who initiate divorce, with the majority of men wanting to keep

the

> > marriages intact. He also cites the fact that while women have

gone

> > on

> > into higher education, more and more men, again of all colors,

have

> > not.

> >

> > Put this together with increased legal, sexual and social

freedoms

> > of

> > women, and we can see some of the reasons why marriage as an

> > institution

> > continues on a downward spiral.

> >

> > Hacker suggests, based on his research and findings, that the

major

> > reason why things are the way they are right now is because many

> > women

> > are not getting men who meet their standards - and it all doesn't

> > have

> > to do with money alone, although that is a factor. Rather, it has

> > more

> > to do with lack of shared values, which can happen when one goes

on

> > to

> > college and the other does not...about men not having the

> > sensibilities

> > today's women expect, and so on.

> >

> > Interestingly, Hacker also points out in the book that Black

people

> > have

> >

> > seemed to adapt to these conditions...afterall, it is a well

known

> > fact

> > that far more Black women have educational degrees (and all that

> > comes

> > with it) than Black men, on average. He notes that while Black

> > people

> > certainly have problems in this area, when compared to Whites, we

> > have

> > done much better. Hacker also predicts that, if the current

> > situation

> > continues among the White population, they will surpass our

current

> > marriage/divorce/our of wedlock rate (again, keep in mind,

please,

> > we're

> > talking about educated, upwardly mobile WHITE WOMEN, NOT teenage

> > moms of

> > the kind you would see on a Jerry Springer show) - and he

suggests

> > that

> > perhaps the White community could learn something from ours in

this

> > respect.

> >

> > Hacker also deals with a very important, sensitive question -

what

> > does

> > it mean to be a man, today, in 2004? In an age where more and

more

> > people work in the office, not the fields; where more and more

> women

> > are

> >

> > getting the jobs once the sole province of men; and where there

are

> > fewer and fewer outlets for traditional male behavior (hunting,

for

> > example, but there are many others)? Put this together with the

> > skyrocketing sales of Viagra, all the " cops " TV shows, the

Gangsta

> > Rap

> > movement in the Black community, and the all-pervasive Sports

> > Economy

> > here in the USA, it all points to some serious questions that

need

> > answering. Perhaps a major part of the problem, is that men have

> yet

> > to

> > define for themselves, what it means to be a man. From all that I

> > have

> > seen thus far, it appears that it is Women are defining the

> concept.

> >

> > More and more women are waiting longer and longer to have kids,

to

> > marry, and so on...many women never have kids and/or marry at all

> > (and

> > this is something that we as Black folk know very

> well)...meanwhile,

> > history the world over has shown what happens when you an

> > unsocialized,

> > large, virile male population with no sense of mission in life.

> > Again,

> > as Black folks, we know about this in ways that the White

community

> > are

> > only now beginning to realize. In the meantime, Marriage, Family,

> > and by

> > extension, Community and Nation, are falling by the wayside.

> >

> > What I like about Hacker's works is he doesn't take it upon

himself

> > to

> > solve the world's problems - he leaves such things to others.

What

> > he

> > does is lays out the data, brings perspective to it, and leaves

it

> > to

> > the rest of us to hash out. I've only touched on a few points he

> > makes

> > in the book, and I would highly urge everyone reading this to

check

> > it

> > out.

> >

> > Salaam,

> > Mu

> >

> > " Mismatch " - Zam Mu'Min Bey

> > May 25, 2004 13:55 PDT

> >

> > Hi Zam,

> >

> > Without question, women have historically been victim to ruthless

> > beatings and the like. I know about spousal abuse very well,

having

> > witnessed it in various forms over the years, involving female

> loved

> > ones. Your point here has considerable merit.

> >

> > However, since 1980, spousal abuse awareness, coupled with legal

> > action,

> > has reduced things considerably. This is not to say that spousal

> > abuse

> > has disappeared, but it IS to say that it's far more problematic

> for

> > a

> > man to assault a woman today in 2004 than it was 30 years ago.

> >

> > That being said, and hacker points this out in his book, many

women

> > are

> > opting for divorce not because of abuse and/or infidelity, but

> > rather

> > because of what they perceive as the lack of shared experiences

and

> > sensibilities. Because today's climate is more conducive to

woman's

> > independence, more and more women are opting out of marriage for

> > reasons

> > that, if were 50 years ago, our grandmothers would look at these

> > women

> > as if they had a eye in the middle of their foreheads.

> >

> > Furthermore, the stats also clearly points to the fact that most

> > men,

> > who do not initiate divorce, usually start up families

> > elsewhere...in

> > the Black community, for example, it is well known that a man

can

> go

> > off

> > and either start up a new family or join an existing one. I think

> > this

> > clearly debunks the notion that men are afraid to commit. Rather,

> > this

> > is about expectations, particularly on the female side of the

> aisle.

> >

> > As Hacker points out in his book, men's needs simply aren't as

> > complex

> > as most women's...I know that's not a PC thing to say, but for

the

> > most

> > part, for people who have lived for any length of time, they know

> > what

> > i'm saying is true, for the most part. Most men want a fairly

> > attractive

> > woman who is nice, fairly good in bed and can cook a decent meal.

> > That

> > she also can burn it up in the corporate boardroom, or go off

into

> a

> > detailed analysis of Beowulf is a plus, but such things simply

> > aren't a

> > priority for most men.

> >

> > Because today's world is one that is much more focused on the

> > college

> > experience, everyone wants to think that they are more

> sophisticated

> > than our forebears...and there is something to be said for this

> > view, in

> > comparison to our forebears. However, what many of us - and I do

> > have to

> > say in this case, women in the main - fail to take into account,

is

> > that

> > human beings are for the most part, the same today we were a

couple

> > thousand years ago.

> >

> > My personal view is that many marriages and relationships fail

> > because

> > of failure to manage expectations - and again I have to direct

this

> > observation in the main toward the female side of the aisle. In

my

> > astrological work, I cannot recount how many female clients

bemoan

> > their

> > inability to find a " suitable mate " ...about the supposed lack of

> > " eligible Black men " ...and about how adamant these women were

about

> > not

> > " settling for less " . Yet they completely dismiss or overlook out

of

> > hand

> > the many men who, while they may not have an MBA and earn 50K-

> > plus/year,

> > or be able to go through the motions at a wine and cheese affair,

> > are

> > good people nonetheless. That I never have heard such concerns

from

> > my

> > male clients tells me that this tends to be more of a female

> concern

> > and

> > issue.

> >

> > When my Mom was dating my Dad, there were tensions; she was a 19

> > year

> > old nurse with a brand new baby boy (me! ), living with her

> > grandmother and trying to figure things out. My Dad was dating

her,

> > and

> > pledged his love for her and her child, although that child was

not

> > biologically his own. There was a considerable age difference

> > between

> > the two - my Dad was 35 at the time. And, because my Mom came

from

> > the

> > North, and my Dad from the South, there was regional differences

> and

> > the

> > like. And, in the mind of my grandmother, my Mom's mom, my Dad

was

> > hardly a catch - afterall, he was dark skinned, bald and had the

> > obligatory gold tooth that so many Black folk from the South had

> > then

> > and now.

> >

> > My Mom sat down with my great-grandmother, and they had a heart

to

> > heart

> > talk, the kind we don't much about these days. My GGM told my Mom

> > the

> > following:

> >

> > " Diane, I understand that Bob may not be all that you want him to

> > be -

> > but he loves you and that child. And you need a father for your

> son.

> > You'll learn to love him " .

> >

> > My Mom and my Dad married on April 1, 1969, in my GGM's living

> room.

> >

> > Make no mistake - my Mom and Dad had their share of problems,

many

> > of

> > which I have recounted here and elsewhere - but if there is one

> > thing I

> > will always admire and respect about my Dad, is that he loved a

> > woman

> > enough to take her and her newborn child into his heart. And

like

> my

> > GGM

> > said, my Mom did indeed " learn to love " my Dad.

> >

> > I guess my point is that today, such things would sound

alien...and

> > I

> > guess in many ways they are now. Which is a true shame, because

> alot

> > of

> > relationships and marriages have needlessly fallen apart, in

large

> > part

> > nowadays, because of unrealistic expectations on the part of many

> > " liberated " women.

> >

> > That's my spiel for today.

> >

> > Salaam,

> > Mu

> >

> > RE: " Mismatch " - Zam 2 Mu'Min Bey

> > May 25, 2004 15:02 PDT

> >

> > Hi Zam,

> >

> > I think it would benefit you if you checked out Hacker's book. In

> > it, he

> > discuss the very thing we are discussing right now. Today's

woman's

> > needs are, all things being equal, simply more involved than

> today's

> > man. I'm not one for simplicity, but in this case, all things

being

> > equal, it is.

> >

> > On top of this, instead of alot of women recognizing what's

> > important -

> > a good provider, a good dad, someone who shows a basic level of

> > respect

> > and caring, a decent lover, a committed man, a loyal mate and

lover

> > and

> > so on - many women make demands of men that are in many ways,

> > unrealistic. Further, in many ways, lots of women want men to

> think,

> > act

> > and see the world in the same way that they do.

> >

> > The reality, regardless of the reasons behind it, is that men who

> > divorce almost always start up another family somewhere else -

more

> > often than not, with younger women than their first wives. This,

> > along

> > with the higher incidence of interracial marriage (the highest

> > percentage being White men/Asian women) suggests that these men

> want

> > things that their White female counterparts either can't or won't

> > fulfill...in fact, the major reason cited by White men who marry

> > Asian

> > women is that they are perceived as less

> > aggressive/assertive/hostile/demanding than White women. Sounds

> > familiar, doesn't it? It's the very same thing alot of Black men

> say

> > about Black women. And, in all fairness, while this isn't the PC

> > thing

> > to say, there is some truth behind it all.

> >

> > Men can get nuturing without having to get married, especially

> > nowadays

> > Zam...that so many men do remarry, says that it's about more than

> > just

> > getting mommied. I think the dirty little secret is, that alot of

> > guys

> > do want to settle into a stable situation, but have to contend

with

> > the

> > allure of a " you can have it all " mindset that is so very

pervasive

> > here

> > in America.

> >

> > Like you, I too happen to know several women who have opted to

> > remain

> > alone, some of them for more years than I care to recall. It's

just

> > inconceivable to think of a man voluntarily doing the same

thing. I

> > know

> > I wouldn't, and I'm pretty sure you wouldn't voluntarily do it

> > either.

> > Again, it just shows that the needs of men and women, again, on

> > average,

> > are different. One more simpler, one a bit more complex. Not

better

> > or

> > worse, just different. In any event, the prospect of spending a

> > considerable portion alone without a significant other in your

life

> > is

> > not something I look forward to with any sense of dignity.

Indeed,

> I

> > see

> > that as so very sad.

> >

> > More in a minute.

> >

> > Salaam,

> > Mu

> >

> > Zam- wrote:

> > Hey, I don't know if women are any more complicated then men

> are ,

> > many

> > women

> > just have different needs,and they might be a little more

> > numerous... I

> > think

> > the climate of independence , and the educational opportunities

> that

> > women

> > now have access to means that they aren't forced to remain in a

bad

> > relationships where they feel unfulfilled as they may have in the

> > past,

> > or where a man is

> > there sole source of sustenance and income. Many are opting to

not

> > get

> > married at all.

> >

> > I think also , that as we mature and learn more about ourselves,

> > women

> > have

> > been able to actualize more about themselves and are more

conscious

> > of

> > their

> > emotional needs, which are often neglected by many men in

> > relationships

> > and so

> > these women chose to break camp or remain single rather than get

> > locked

> > into an

> > unfullfilling situation.

> >

> > I think that too often in our communities, many men who leave one

> > women

> > or

> > are divorced by an ex aren't looking to create another family as

> > much as

> > find

> > another women, another safe haven and hook up with a someone who

> > will

> > nurture

> > them. Inevitably the women becomes pregnant and therefore he has

> > another family

> > by default. Not sure if most men deliberately go after those

> > situations

> > more

> > than they just happen by circumstance and need.

> >

> > I still dont believe that most guys prefer marriage to the single

> > life,

> > especially in our community, and im not knocking them....lol

> >

> > " Mismatch " - From a Vedic Perspective... Mu'Min Bey

> > May 25, 2004 15:45 PDT

> >

> > All,

> >

> > While we're going back and forth here, I thought to throw this in

> > the

> > mix...

> >

> > Many of you know that I am a Vedic astrologer, and have spent a

> > considerable amount of time immersed in that culture. Indeed, at

> > least

> > half of my entire clientele are Indian born. And the chief

concern

> > the

> > majority of them have, is marriage.

> >

> > As many of you know, in India, today, arranged marriage is very

> > common.

> > I am often called upon to " hookup " the charts of two people who

> have

> > yet

> > to meet in person; the parents of the bride and groom are usually

> > the

> > ones who do the legwork.

> >

> > After doing this for some years now, and comparing it to what we

> are

> > discussing today, I think there is something to be said for their

> > worldview. Indians, overall, have a totally different

understanding

> > of

> > marriage than the average American does today. The understand

that

> > marriage is more than just about the hubbie and wifey, but

rather

> it

> > is

> > a contract that impacts the entire family, community indeed even

> > nation.

> > Because of the great impact this institution makes on everyone,

the

> > extended family in India takes an active and aggressive role in

the

> > potential coming together of two people.

> >

> > Because of the history of India, they have a great knack for

> finding

> > the

> > goodness in everything, no matter how bad. Most Indians, even

> today,

> > understand full well what their options are (or aren't, I should

> > say)

> > and therefore are content to get what they can and move forward.

> > They

> > have no illusions that they " can have it all " and so on. Their

> major

> > concern is in finding a mate who has a spiritual center, is kind,

> > and

> > has a similiar outlook on life.

> >

> > For an Indian - even an Americanized one - the notion of divorce

is

> > horrible. Thus one of the many reasons why so much work is put

into

> > astrological matching two people for marriage. Indians value

above

> > all

> > else, longevity of marriage, even if it comes at the price

> > of " pizzazz " ,

> > etc. Here in America, and increasingly moreso throughout the

> Western

> > world, people divorce at the drop of a hat. Which in turn, has a

> > disasterous effect on our Society as a whole.

> >

> > The one thing I admire most about the Indian view of marriage is

in

> > how

> > they have learned to manage expectations...to accept what can and

> > cannot

> > be done. Of course, this brings in the whole philosophy of Karma

> and

> > the

> > like, which in and of itself is anathema, even to those here in

the

> > USA

> > who consider themselves " spiritual " ...they are far too

Americanized

> > than

> > they are willing to admit and so while they may talk a mean game

> > about

> > spirituality and like, they really ain't buying all that Fate and

> > Karma

> > crap. Here in America, you can be whatever you want to be, no

> matter

> > who

> > don't like it, and no matter who it might impact. The Individual

is

> > everything. Period.

> >

> > So we see that Ego is rampant here in America with regard to

> > marriage

> > (and just about everything else for that matter)...think about

it.

> > All

> > those bridal books, the ones that amount to the size of a phone

> > book...these are clearly for the bride, as is the large majority

of

> > the

> > wedding ceremony. And, we can cite other things from the hubbie's

> > side

> > of the aisle. And we can go on.

> >

> > While Zam continues to argue the notion that a number of women

want

> > men

> > who are emotionally available and so on, again, it seems from the

> > data

> > presented by Hacker and others that that only seems to be only a

> > part of

> > the story. At least as important, is again, the sensibilities,

> > nuances

> > and out and out physical demands many women make of today's men.

> >

> > A good example of this comes in the sexual arena. Much is well

> known

> > about the " minute man " thing, and how much attention this has

> gotten

> > in

> > recent years. And while there is something to be said for men

> > improving

> > in this area so as to be more satisfying to their mates, in all

> > fairness, a good bit can be said about the situation in reverse

as

> > well.

> > True, most men aren't hung like a horse and can screw twice as

> long,

> > but

> > in fairness, as any man can attest to, there are a good number of

> > women

> > out there that, instead of looking like " da bomb " end up actually

> > being

> > " a bomb " in bed. And while it's true that a good number of men

> could

> > stand to improve in the romance department overall, we can also

say

> > with

> > some degree of certainty, that there's a good number of women who

> > ain't

> > likely to be second coming of Vanessa Del Rio, either. The point

> > that

> > I'm making is that if you have unrealistic expectations in this -

> or

> > indeed, any area - you are only setting yourself and your

> > relationship

> > up for a major downfall, because those are ideals to which the

vast

> > majority of people, at any time, anywhere, can only strive, but

> > rarely

> > achieve.

> >

> > I think this is why the Vedic system of astrological

compatibility

> > is in

> > many ways genious, because it evaluates the major areas of

marital

> > life,

> > as well as the overall mental, emotional and physical state of

the

> > couple in ways that even today's Western astrology cannot even

> think

> > about approaching. And the Indian way of life has more focus on

> > one's

> > duty to society - which includes the extended family - than it

does

> > on

> > individual gratification.

> >

> > I think it's something we as astrologers need to think about.

> >

> > Salaam,

> > Mu

> >

> > Zam- wrote:

> > In a message dated 5/25/2004 6:02:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time,

> > mumin- writes:> On top of this, instead of alot of

women

> > recognizing what's

> > important -

> > a good provider, a good dad, someone who shows a basic level of

> > respect

> > and caring, a decent lover, a committed man, a loyal mate and

lover

> > and

> > so on - many women make demands of men that are in many ways,

> > unrealistic. Further, in many ways, lots of women want men to

> think,

> > act

> >

> > and see the world in the same way that they do.

> > Zam : I think that most women do want those very things and not

> much

> > more

> > than that, but they find it difficult to find a man who will be

> > those

> > things, and

> > not controlling, and not physically abusive, and not emotionally

> > distant

> > and

> > not insenstive to her feelings, and definitely not a

> > philanderer......I

> > really

> > dont think that women really are asking that much of men ,

> > especially if

> > you

> > see the types of relatonships that many women remain in simply

> > becasue

> > they

> > want to try and make it work out.It's in womens nature to make a

> man

> > 'become " or

> > to push and prod him to actualize himself, thats a part of the

> > nurturing

> > process, however I odnt think that the average women has these

> > ridiculous demands , or expectations for the most part, even if

> some

> > of them might be

> > difficult

> > to get laong with in some ways.

> >

> > More " Mismatch " & Astrological Thoughts - Zam, All Mu'Min Bey

> > May 26, 2004 13:54 PDT

> >

> > Hi Zam, Everyone,

> >

> > I just wanted to add a few more thoughts on this topic.

> >

> > I think far too much is made of the headcase guys among us - the

> > abusers, the adulterers, the general knuckleheads. Please don't

get

> > me

> > wrong, such beings do continue to exist, but I think if we're all

> > honest

> > with ourselves and each other, we would have to agree that such

> > behavior

> > has sharply declined over the past 25 years.

> >

> > Since " The Burning Bed " , spousal abuse, for example, simply isn't

> > the

> > same animal it was prior to the 1980s. Today, it is far, far more

> > problematic for a man, any man, to assault a woman with impunity.

> > Stringent laws and the enforcement of those laws, make the lives

of

> > men

> > who offend very difficult...and painful. Indeed, as the current

> > ordeal

> > of Kobe Bryant shows, just the accusation of Rape can ruin a man

> for

> > life.

> >

> > In no way am I saying that women still don't get mistreated in

the

> > most

> > brutal of ways...but let me offer an analogy. 50 years ago,

> > automotive

> > safety was virtually nonexistent...there weren't even safety

belts

> > installed in cars back then, not to mention shatter-proof glass,

> > rollover bars and the rest of it. 50 years later, we have cars

made

> > of

> > materials that protect the passengers from the worst of the

impact

> > from

> > an oncoming vehicle...most cars today have airbags standard, in

> some

> > cases on the driver's, passenger's, and sides...and safety belts

> are

> > as

> > strong today as ever. As someone who has walked away from a

number

> > of

> > car accidents, I can personally attest to the vast improvements

of

> > auto

> > safety over the years. Now, does that mean that people cannot

still

> > be

> > killed in car crashes? Certainly not - just making the point that

> > things

> > HAVE improved - markedly.

> >

> > I make the same argument with respect to our current topic on

> women.

> >

> > So I think we kind of do ourselves a disservice to focus on what

I

> > consider to be in many ways red herring topics...and again, as

> > Hacker

> > points out in the book, the issue isn't one of life or death, or

> > financial survival, but again one of the real or perceived lack

of

> > shared sensibilities, values and experiences that today's women

> > expect

> > and demand of their potential mates.

> >

> > It is very important for us to focus the debate here NOT on the

> > working

> > class man or woman - in the main, that class of people simply

don't

> > have

> > these problems. Rather, and I think this is important for us to

> > consider

> > as astrologers (for most of us anyway, because our clients tend

to

> > come

> > from the middle class) - the issue is coming from that growing

> > sector of

> > upwardly mobile, college educated female class. Trying to " mix

and

> > match " the classes in this regard only muddies the waters and

gets

> > us

> > nowhere.

> >

> > I wanted to challenge Zam's notion of men hooking up with women

> > after

> > divorce because they want to be " mommied " - and to do that I'll

> once

> > again use my own parents as prima facia examples.

> >

> > My Dad had a family down in Savannah, GA, and for reasons that

are

> > still

> > not entirely clear, at some point he left them and came up North

to

> > find

> > work, like many Black men did. It was the 1960s, and my Dad did

> > indeed

> > find work as a longshoreman up in Brooklyn, New York City. He was

> > paid

> > very well, getting himself a very nice apartment, and an all

white

> > Cadillac, which, for those of you old to remember, was the

> singature

> > ride to have.

> >

> > Clearly, my Dad had everything to gain and nothing to loose - he

> was

> > a

> > single man, living it up, and could - and did - have access to

just

> > about any woman he wanted out in NYC, without having to marry

any

> of

> > them. Why then, did he give all that up just to get attached

again?

> > Especially to a woman who had an infant child?

> >

> > It was clear to see how my Dad got " hooked " - my Mom was a very

> good

> > looking woman back in her day. A zaftig " Redbone " (that's old

Black

> > slang for a light-skinned Black woman) with a wide, beautiful

> smile,

> > my

> > Mom was all tits, thighs and ass - and on top of all that, she

was

> a

> > nurse, which meant she had to wear those white uniforms that

always

> > seem

> > to be so form-fitting on the ladies. My Dad was in Philly

visiting

> > friends and saw my Mom crossing Broad St. one early Spring day in

> > 1969

> > in that nurse's uniform - and damned near crashed his Coup De

> Ville.

> > He

> > pulled over, got her attention, and the rest, as they say, is

> > history.

> >

> > It's quite possible that my Dad could have had his way with my

Mom

> > without having to marry her - at the very least, he could have

had

> > his

> > way with as many other ladies. But he chose to marry her, again,

> > with

> > child - and went on to sire three more kids with the same woman.

> > That

> > does NOT sound like a fear of committment, or the need for

> mommying,

> > Zam. In fact, that falls right in line with what we all know

> accross

> > America - that most men WANT to have a family, WANT to have

> > committment.

> >

> > I think that my Mom and Dad would have had a much better marriage

> > than

> > they did IF they had the proper counseling - and I don't mean the

> > one or

> > two sessions that pass for " pre-marital counseling " that some

> > churches

> > and the like do nowadays, but real, sensitive, ongoing counseling

> > for my

> > parents. It would have helped them better manage and bridge the

age

> > differences, the regional differences, and the sexual

differences.

> > It

> > would have also helped my Dad heal from his own issues growing

up,

> > to

> > understand and appreciate his sexual drive and needs so as not to

> > become

> > a slave to them, and to find better outlets for his awesome

> > mathematical

> > skills and talents other than compulsive gambling. But, given

what

> > they

> > had to work with, and the times in which they lived, I think they

> > did

> > alright - all of their children are considered by most people who

> > know

> > any or all of them to be intelligent, caring human beings. For

all

> > of

> > their problems, they had to have done something right.

> >

> > I agree wholeheartedly with Zam insofar as the " slipping " of

values

> > in

> > our current times are concerned. As more people become more

> involved

> > with " getting theirs " many of the things we all grew up have

fallen

> > by

> > the wayside. Things that held our communities and families

> together.

> >

> > In the hood, one of the fixtures was " Big Momma " , the eldest

Black

> > woman

> > in the area. She was often the nosiest person on the block,

looking

> > into

> > and after everyone's kids...and she was often the " go-to " person

> > whom

> > everyone came to to discuss important matters like marriage and

> > relationship. For those of you who are White and into the New Age

> > thing,

> > you'll recognize the archetype as the " Crone " or Wise Woman. And

> you

> > can

> > find out more about " Big Momma " by checking out the film Soul

Food.

> >

> > Big Momma was around long before there was an Oprah, or an

Iyanla,

> > or a

> > Dr. Phil or Dr. Joyce Brothers...and my Mom's heart to heart,

> > pre-marital talk with our family's " Big Momma " , my great-

> > grandmother,

> > really helped my Mom I think. Unfortunately, not just in the

Black

> > community, but it seems in all communities in America, Big Momma

> > seems

> > to be a thing of the past. That's why it is my contention that

we

> as

> > astrologers, female and male alike, have to step in as " Big

Momma " .

> >

> > I have presented these and other topics of discussion because I

> feel

> > they are vitally important for us to consider as astrologers.

Since

> > the

> > Uranus-Pluto conjunction in the sign of Virgo in the 1960s (and

the

> > more

> > recent Uranus-Neptune conjunction in Capricorn in the 1990s -

note

> > how

> > in both cases, the planet Uranus was involved and the Signs

> involved

> > were Feminine), norms and roles, accross the board, have

> > dramatically

> > changed. Without doubt, many things have improved - but many

> > unintended

> > consequences have occured as well. The current " Mismatch " thread

is

> > one

> > such manifestation of those consequences.

> >

> > I belong to at least 20 different astrological forums and

> listservs.

> > To

> > date, NONE of them have grappled with these issues in the way and

> > manner

> > that this one, the Pan Astrological Forum does. Many forums,

> > desgined

> > and built as little more than fertile marketing fields, don't

> > approach

> > anything that doesn't fit into their own little backyards. The

> > owners of

> > those forums are far too busy hawking their latest books and

> > trolling

> > for new clients. And the other forums that exist, usually conduct

> > arid

> > discussions, of interest only to astrologers - and a small

segment

> > of

> > them at that.

> >

> > I wanted to air these issues out and get all of us thinking hard

> > about

> > these things, because people come to us for advice and guidance,

> and

> > I

> > feel that we have to be on top of our game if we're ever going

to

> be

> > of

> > any real and meaningful help to our clients. Whether you agree or

> > disagree, my hope is that all of this has made you think.

> >

> > Salaam,

> > Mu

> >

May 28, 2004

Hi Debra,

Check out Sun/Jupiter for women and Sun/Venus for men. . . good

marriage indicators.

BTW, use my sunset calculations when doing so.

At 04:41 PM 5/27/2004 +0000, Debra wrote:

>I would like to investigate this furthur. Using charts for

>compatability and marriage issues. To really make it a group

>learning for better knowledge and help.

See you in the stars,

Arthyr,

http://TheSunsetChart.com

" Making Ancient Astrology Work for You "

May 28, 2004

Hi Debra,

This sounds fantastic! Count me in...

Peace,

Patrice

_______________

Mu and AllI would like to investigate this furthur. Using charts for compatability and marriage issues. To really make it a group learning for better knowledge and help.Just as the plea that came in a few days ago of one wondering why the interpetation of marriage prediction had not been fullfilled.Is there an interest as a group to pick up these charts and study them as a whole and then comment back and forth with observation and learning views and tools?Debra

May 28, 2004

Flick <rubysun

Thu, 27 May 2004 14:46:15 +0100

Re: Astrology and The Gender Divide: Discourses On the State of Our Relationship Art

Hmm...so it's all the fault of women. Just hand me an apple and call me Eve.

Forgive me if you were a point other than this - I gave up reading a third

of the way down as it was getting repetitive.

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Astrology and The Gender Divide: Discourses On the State of Our Relationship Art

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