RE: 2-debra & all: Mark K...5/22..... Aspects across signs-OrBhava vs Rasi Charts....

May 23, 2004

Mark,

I had a thought. If one understands that the degree of the Asc is at start at

the middle of cusp degree instead of at beginning then if a degree of ASC say

is 3* Leo then 15* before it and 15* after is the 30* whole house. That would

then be for 1st house equal 18* Cancer through 18* Leo. Is that

where you are coming from? Vs. using degree as beginning of sign or house?

And recognizing degree vs. having degree disappear after it places ASC in sign

and house to have all other signs and houses defined to follow whole house and

sign from ASC? So sign is not recognized as important for house placement. But

sign is used as influencing the house placement. That all sounds confusing

but did I get that right? So one is defining and interpreting in houses vs.

signs.

I

like your advice to feel ones ASC and planet placement. How does one feel that

for someone else when looking at another’s chart? Is it using that same

intuitive feeling of self to decipher other’s charts?

D

Mark Kincaid [m.kincaid]

Saturday, May 22, 2004 11:36

PM

2-debra & all: > Mark K...5/22..... Re: Aspects across signs-OrBhava vs Rasi

Charts....

Dear

Debra:

Don't let your Virgo, Mercurical side...mislead...you...

try and feel it...

feel your rising sign....

does it feel like you?

then, when you've got that down....

feel your houses...

your body, and personality are living a real, natural astrology....

which is......

Feel that...

all the systems...are approximations...trying to express what you are...

but you are 'that'....

and you can know it better, from within...

the jyotish, from without...

is just a guide...something to help legitimize....our personal experiences...

after I learned to feel my chart....

none of that...other, jyotish stuff.... worried...me...

cuz..everytime I look within.... I feel like a Libra rising...

in my 10 th house,...I feel that cancer there....

I feel my Virgo...in the 12th....

feel the other configurations...and you can feel them....too...

Mark

ps... don't forget there are these 2 systems...going on simultaneously...

the rasi chart...for more general...though normally very correct...

but for especially those on the cusp....

the bhava chart....may feel like the really...correct...thing...

" Debra Mehren "

<dqm51

Sat, 22 May 2004 22:58:46

-0500

RE:

2-debra & all: > Mark K...5/22..... Re: Aspects across signs- OrBhava

vs Rasi Charts....

Hi Mark,

Whoa, I thought that was Western breakdown

only. And degree in sign and house was not separate. Like if in

your example ASC 28* Cancer is in the sign of Cancer and in the lst hse as a

whole. Or if Sun is 8* Cancer it is then in the first sign and house as a

whole. In other words degrees only place but once placed the degrees

disappear and the sign and house are left for what they are. Whole

house equal house. Whole sign equal sign

Oh Gosh, is that what I am doing wrong in

Vedic/sidereal? I know that sounds stupid, but that is how I was taught.

Except, I have always questioned personally,

degrees close to the cusp of a sign because I know how easily they can change

signs thus houses if the degree is off by only one degree. It gets very

confusing and undermines for me to what ayanamsa is really correct in these

situations too. I guess it¹s my Virgo coming out. Wanting to be

split hair accurate because I know how a whole can be thrown off. So, if

I use degrees to measure 15* either side, houses change but signs

extend?! On my software my Bhava chart does not give degrees so only

shows change of signs which then shows change of (numbered) houses.

D

Mark Kincaid [m.kincaid]

Saturday, May 22, 2004 10:26

PM

2-debra & all: > Mark K...5/22..... Re: Aspects across signs- OrBhava vs

Rasi Charts....

Dear Debra:

Don't forget.....the bhava chart won't change any planets into different signs,...

only different houses, potentially...

Those planets that are beyond the 30 degrees of the exact rising sign degree,...15

degrees

either way... will move..

So, if Rising sign is 28 degrees of Cancer....then... the lst House in the Bhava

chart...

Now, remember, count 15 degrees both ways...

So, from 28th degree Cancer... 15 degrees into Cancer...means...lst house will

start at 13th degree of Cancer...

And 15 degrees the other way, means 2 more degrees of Cancer, and then 13 degrees

of Leo, in the first house...

So, first house for this person would be from 13 degrees of Cancer to 13th

degree of Leo....

Now, any planets in the earliest degrees....in their signs... say 0 - 13th

degrees.... will be found moving and/or influencing.... another sign...

So, if the Sun's at 8 degrees, of Cancer...

according to the rasi chart.... even though the rising sign is really beginning

at the 28th degree of Cancer, according to the Rasi chart system,...the Sun

will still be in the first house...

But, good astrologers...will look and notice that the rising sign's on the

cusp, and therefore, look at any planets that are not in that 15 degrees from

both sides of the 28th degree...

So, if the Sun's at 8 degrees.... in the Bhava chart... the 8th degree of

Cancer...itself slips into the 12th house...and thefore so does the Sun!

Mark K.

" Debra Mehren "

<dqm51

Sat, 22 May 2004 20:53:52

-0500

RE:

2-Bettina, & all: > Mark K...5/22..... Re: Aspects across signs-

Or Bhava vs Rasi Charts....

Dear Bettina, Mark, MuMin and all

I am particularly interested in this topic

because I have several charts that have this unique degree shift potential.

Other than defining the ayanamsha one way over another, I find this

dilemma a very real impact on accuracy of a chart. Most of the time the bhava

chart will reassign a planet to another sign and house but the Rashi degree

obviously stays the same in sign and house on the cusp - with defining the

chart accurately, ambiguous. Ayanmasha can change the degree placement

but thats not necessarily accurate either. I have one chart in

particular where the Moon is on the cusp at 0* Capricorn and Saturn at 28* in

another sign Libra. If one were to look at the bhava chart, one would see

that the Moon has moved backwards to Sagittarius and the Saturn has moved ahead

to Scorpio. There is enough degree change too within the signs where the

other planets are that the whole chart takes on a whole other meaning.

Which one is more accurate? If one were to change the ayanamsha,

then the Asc changes houses beside the Moon and Saturn. YIKES. I think

this is where the true experts in the field are different from others being

more accurate when they have the skills, the wisdom and the talent to decipher

the difference and know how to accurately interpret. Any suggestions?

7/3/1985 - 8:16am (CDT) - 87 W 48, 42 N 10 Lahiri Asc: Cancer

-----Original

Message-----

Mark Kincaid [m.kincaid]

Saturday, May 22, 2004 7:33

PM

2-Bettina, & all: > Mark K...5/22..... Re: Aspects across signs- Or Bhava

vs Rasi Charts....

Dear Bettina & All:

This is a great question.

There is a wonderul difference between someone who's got their Rising Sign in

the lst degree of

Aries...and someone who's Rising....Signs.... at 29 degrees....

The system you mention, creating a first house, from that exact.... moment...

is called the Bhava

chart in Jyotish...

This is used especially when any planets are not within 15 degrees, either way

of the Rising Sign, exact degree...

This is expecially significant when people are born 'on the cusp' between 2

signs...

Because, quite often, planets will move into different houses, in the Bhava Chart,....

It's often looked at by any Astrologer... because it represents a subtlety....

that's very real....

The key, is to consider,....finding....if the different rules... fit you!

And if they do, which is the point of all these great Vedic Jyotish....

principles....

then, the subtleties.... of our unique charts....comes forward....

Sincerely,

Mark K.

" Bettina "

<chiria

Sat, 15 May 2004 21:09:27

-0700

RE:

Re: Aspects across signs

Thanks, Therese. Now

I'll have to try to apply that.

.... Bettina

Therese Hamilton

[eastwest]

Saturday, May 15, 2004 5:39

PM

Re:

Aspects across signs

At 11:05 AM 5/15/04 -0700, Bettina wrote:

Dear Mu and Whoever Else Can Answer these Question ...

I have a question. Some Vedic astrologers use the " sign as house "

method

while others use the method of a house being 15 degs on either side of the

cusp, and any planet in that 30 deg area is considered to be in that house,

even if it's in a different sign from the one on the cusp.

Here's an example: a young man has his Sun in 1 deg of Leo. He has

26

degs of Cancer rising. Mu (and all), would you consider that to be a

first

house Sun, or a 2nd house Sun? Or ... a 2nd house Sun which is

nonetheless

cnj. the asc? Which system works best for you folks out there?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bettina,

I use sign-as-house for the yogas, for example if the lord of first is with

the lord of 9th, that is raja yoga. However, if this conjunction happens to

be within 15 degrees of the 8th cusp, then the yoga is weak because it's in

the 8th house. Or else it applies to 8th house affairs.

An example of planet changing house is in the chart of Paramahansa

Yogananda. Y had 6 Leo rising, Jupiter in 24 Pisces. Jupiter is the 8th

sign-as-house, but the 9th equal house. For a spiritual guru, Jupiter in

9th is a better fit than Jupiter in the 8th. However, Jupiter is strong in

its own sign, and *as lord of 5th*, Y had no children. So in considering

planets as house lords, sign-as-house is important. Taking the planet

alone, Jupiter in 9th is a better fit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

>>Another question: do out of sign asps work if they're major asps

and

very close? I know that strict Vedic-ists say no, but I'm not convinced

that they're correct. So, if Venus were in, say, 29 degs of Aries and

Saturn in 1 deg Taurus, would they influence each other or no?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I discovered something very interesting when I studied a group of

earthquake and quake ingress charts a while ago. (Some of these are posted

on / in the files section

in the Earthquake Charts folder. Very often the critical quake aspects

crossed signs. For example the Sun might be in 29 Leo opposing Uranus at 1

Pisces. From this I concluded that aspects **do** have effect across signs,

but they may be critical or unstable. The fact that two planets are on sign

cusps would indicate change or instability.

Therese

May 23, 2004

Mark,

Ok, I get it. However, it does take further careful study to comprehend

accurately and then combine and apply. So, I guess I have been looking only at

whole sign and thinking and doing house from sign instead of from degree, being

bhava chart. I always thought bhava was a separate chart and not intergrated

with sign chart. I hope I got that right.

D

Debra Mehren [dqm51]

Sunday, May 23, 2004 12:16

AM

RE:

2-debra & all: > Mark K...5/22..... Re: Aspects across signs-OrBhava vs Rasi

Charts....

Mark, I had a thought. If one understands that the

degree of the Asc is at start at the middle of cusp degree instead of at

beginning then if a degree of ASC say is 3* Leo then 15* before it and 15*

after is the 30* whole house. That would then be for 1st house

equal 18* Cancer through 18* Leo. Is that where you are coming from? Vs.

using degree as beginning of sign or house? And recognizing degree

vs. having degree disappear after it places ASC in sign and house to have all

other signs and houses defined to follow whole house and sign from ASC? So

sign is not recognized as important for house placement. But sign is used

as influencing the house placement. That all sounds confusing but

did I get that right? So one is defining and interpreting in houses vs.

signs.

I like your advice to feel ones ASC and planet placement.

How does one feel that for someone else when looking at another’s

chart? Is it using that same intuitive feeling of self to decipher

other’s charts?