2-debra & all: Mark K...5/22..... Aspects across signs- OrBhava vs Rasi Charts....

[Guest guest]

Dear Debra:

 

Don't let your Virgo, Mercurical side...mislead...you...

 

try and feel it...

 

feel your rising sign....

 

does it feel like you?

 

then, when you've got that down....

 

feel your houses...

 

your body, and personality are living a real, natural astrology....

 

which is......

 

Feel that...

 

all the systems...are approximations...trying to express what you are...

 

but you are 'that'....

 

and you can know it better, from within...

 

the jyotish, from without...

 

is just a guide...something to help legitimize....our personal experiences...

 

after I learned to feel my chart....

 

none of that...other, jyotish stuff.... worried...me...

 

cuz..everytime I look within.... I feel like a Libra rising...

 

in my 10 th house,...I feel that cancer there....

 

I feel my Virgo...in the 12th....

 

feel the other configurations...and you can feel them....too...

 

 

Mark

 

 

ps... don't forget there are these 2 systems...going on simultaneously...

 

the rasi chart...for more general...though normally very correct...

 

but for especially those on the cusp....

 

the bhava chart....may feel like the really...correct...thing...

 

 

 

 

" Debra Mehren " <dqm51

 

Sat, 22 May 2004 22:58:46 -0500

 

RE: 2-debra & all: > Mark K...5/22..... Re: Aspects across signs- OrBhava vs Rasi Charts....

 

 

Hi Mark,

 

 

 

Whoa, I thought that was Western breakdown only.  And degree in sign and house was not separate.  Like if in your example ASC 28* Cancer is in the sign of Cancer and in the lst hse as a whole.  Or if Sun is 8* Cancer it is then in the first sign and house as a whole.  In other words degrees only place but once placed the degrees disappear and the sign and house are left for what they are.   Whole house ­ equal house.  Whole sign ­ equal sign

 

 

 

Oh Gosh, is that what I am doing wrong in Vedic/sidereal?  I know that sounds stupid, but that is how I was taught.

 

Except, I have always questioned personally, degrees close to the cusp of a sign because I know how easily they can change signs thus houses if the degree is off by only one degree.  It gets very confusing and undermines for me to what ayanamsa is really correct in these situations too.  I guess it¹s my Virgo coming out.  Wanting to be split hair accurate because I know how a whole can be thrown off.  So, if I use degrees to measure 15* either side, houses change but signs extend?!  On my software my Bhava chart does not give degrees so only shows change of signs which then shows change of  (numbered) houses.

 

 

 

D

 

 

 

 

Mark Kincaid [m.kincaid]

Saturday, May 22, 2004 10:26 PM

 

2-debra & all: > Mark K...5/22..... Re: Aspects across signs- OrBhava vs Rasi Charts....

 

 

 

Dear Debra:

 

Don't forget.....the bhava chart won't change any planets into different signs,...

 

only different houses, potentially...

 

Those planets that are beyond the 30 degrees of the exact rising sign degree,...15 degrees

either way... will move..

 

So, if Rising sign is 28 degrees of Cancer....then... the lst House in the Bhava chart...

 

Now, remember, count 15 degrees both ways...

 

So, from 28th degree Cancer... 15 degrees into Cancer...means...lst house will start at 13th degree of Cancer...

 

And 15 degrees the other way, means 2 more degrees of Cancer, and then 13 degrees of Leo, in the first house...

 

So, first house for this person would be from 13 degrees of Cancer to 13th degree of Leo....

 

Now, any planets in the earliest degrees....in their signs... say 0 - 13th degrees.... will be found moving and/or influencing.... another sign...

 

So, if the Sun's at 8 degrees, of Cancer...

 

according to the rasi chart.... even though the rising sign is really beginning at the 28th degree of Cancer, according to the Rasi chart system,...the Sun will still be in the first house...

 

But, good astrologers...will look and notice that the rising sign's on the cusp, and therefore, look at any planets that are not in that 15 degrees from both sides of the 28th degree...

 

So, if the Sun's at 8 degrees.... in the Bhava chart... the 8th degree of Cancer...itself slips into the 12th house...and thefore so does the Sun!

 

 

Mark K.

 

 

 

 

 

" Debra Mehren " <dqm51

 

Sat, 22 May 2004 20:53:52 -0500

 

RE: 2-Bettina, & all: > Mark K...5/22..... Re: Aspects across signs- Or Bhava vs Rasi Charts....

 

 

Dear Bettina, Mark, MuMin and all

 

 

 

I am particularly interested in this topic because I have several charts that have this unique degree shift potential. Other than defining the ayanamsha one way over another, I find this dilemma a very real impact on accuracy of a chart. Most of the time the bhava chart will reassign a planet to another sign and house but the Rashi degree obviously stays the same in sign and house on the cusp - with defining the chart accurately, ambiguous. Ayanmasha can change the degree placement but thats not necessarily accurate either. I have one chart in particular where the Moon is on the cusp at 0* Capricorn and Saturn at 28* in another sign Libra. If one were to look at the bhava chart, one would see that the Moon has moved backwards to Sagittarius and the Saturn has moved ahead to Scorpio. There is enough degree change too within the signs where the other planets are that the whole chart takes on a whole other meaning. Which one is more accurate? If one were to change the ayanamsha, then the Asc changes houses beside the Moon and Saturn. YIKES. I think this is where the true experts in the field are different from others being more accurate when they have the skills, the wisdom and the talent to decipher the difference and know how to accurately interpret. Any suggestions? 7/3/1985 - 8:16am (CDT) - 87 W 48, 42 N 10 Lahiri Asc: Cancer

 

 

Mark Kincaid [m.kincaid]

Saturday, May 22, 2004 7:33 PM

 

2-Bettina, & all: > Mark K...5/22..... Re: Aspects across signs- Or Bhava vs Rasi Charts....

 

 

 

Dear Bettina & All:

 

This is a great question.

 

There is a wonderul difference between someone who's got their Rising Sign in the lst degree of

Aries...and someone who's Rising....Signs.... at 29 degrees....

 

The system you mention, creating a first house, from that exact.... moment... is called the Bhava

chart in Jyotish...

 

This is used especially when any planets are not within 15 degrees, either way of the Rising Sign, exact degree...

 

This is expecially significant when people are born 'on the cusp' between 2 signs...

 

Because, quite often, planets will move into different houses, in the Bhava Chart,....

 

It's often looked at by any Astrologer... because it represents a subtlety.... that's very real....

 

The key, is to consider,....finding....if the different rules... fit you!

 

And if they do, which is the point of all these great Vedic Jyotish.... principles....

 

then, the subtleties.... of our unique charts....comes forward....

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

Mark K.

 

 

 

 

" Bettina " <chiria

 

Sat, 15 May 2004 21:09:27 -0700

 

RE: Re: Aspects across signs

 

 

 

Thanks, Therese. Now I'll have to try to apply that.

 

 

.... Bettina

 

 

 

 

Therese Hamilton [eastwest]

Saturday, May 15, 2004 5:39 PM

 

Re: Aspects across signs

 

At 11:05 AM 5/15/04 -0700, Bettina wrote:

Dear Mu and Whoever Else Can Answer these Question ...

 

I have a question. Some Vedic astrologers use the " sign as house " method

while others use the method of a house being 15 degs on either side of the

cusp, and any planet in that 30 deg area is considered to be in that house,

even if it's in a different sign from the one on the cusp.

 

Here's an example: a young man has his Sun in 1 deg of Leo. He has 26

degs of Cancer rising. Mu (and all), would you consider that to be a first

house Sun, or a 2nd house Sun? Or ... a 2nd house Sun which is nonetheless

cnj. the asc? Which system works best for you folks out there?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Bettina,

I use sign-as-house for the yogas, for example if the lord of first is with

the lord of 9th, that is raja yoga. However, if this conjunction happens to

be within 15 degrees of the 8th cusp, then the yoga is weak because it's in

the 8th house. Or else it applies to 8th house affairs.

An example of planet changing house is in the chart of Paramahansa

Yogananda. Y had 6 Leo rising, Jupiter in 24 Pisces. Jupiter is the 8th

sign-as-house, but the 9th equal house. For a spiritual guru, Jupiter in

9th is a better fit than Jupiter in the 8th. However, Jupiter is strong in

its own sign, and *as lord of 5th*, Y had no children. So in considering

planets as house lords, sign-as-house is important. Taking the planet

alone, Jupiter in 9th is a better fit.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

 

>>Another question: do out of sign asps work if they're major asps and

very close? I know that strict Vedic-ists say no, but I'm not convinced

that they're correct. So, if Venus were in, say, 29 degs of Aries and

Saturn in 1 deg Taurus, would they influence each other or no?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I discovered something very interesting when I studied a group of

earthquake and quake ingress charts a while ago. (Some of these are posted

on / in the files section

in the Earthquake Charts folder. Very often the critical quake aspects

crossed signs. For example the Sun might be in 29 Leo opposing Uranus at 1

Pisces. From this I concluded that aspects **do** have effect across signs,

but they may be critical or unstable. The fact that two planets are on sign

cusps would indicate change or instability.

Therese

 

 

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

I'm still not sure which is right, but I do know one thing from observation: The closer a planet is to the cusp of a house, the stronger it influences that house. Take my husband, for example, he has a 10th hs Aries Sun, but it's about 18 degs from cusp, so technically, using the 15 degs on either side of the cusp method, it's in the 11th, but it's in the 10th sign. He has Merc. and Ven. much closer to the 10th cusp and those planets describe him better than Sun. Esp Venus, as he's easy going, relaxed, low energy. Merc. too, as his work related to technology. Definitely not overly career oriented as one would think from a 10th hs Sun in exaltation. From what I understand, when a planet is 12 - 18 degs from a cusp, it's called sandhi and is weak for the matters of the houses it's in between. I have a sandhi Mars and Mars' influence doesn't show up much in my personality.

 

But, I would think that if a person had a planet say, 28 degs from the hs it's in .... for example, if one had Venus in 1 deg Aries and 29 degs Aries was on the hs cusp, the influence of Venus would be very weak for that house.

 

 

.... Bettina

 

Debra Mehren [dqm51]Saturday, May 22, 2004 8:59 PM Subject: RE: 2-debra & all: > Mark K...5/22..... Re: Aspects across signs- OrBhava vs Rasi Charts....

 

Hi Mark,

 

Whoa, I thought that was Western breakdown only. And degree in sign and house was not separate. Like if in your example ASC 28* Cancer is in the sign of Cancer and in the lst hse as a whole. Or if Sun is 8* Cancer it is then in the first sign and house as a whole. In other words degrees only place but once placed the degrees disappear and the sign and house are left for what they are. Whole house – equal house. Whole sign – equal sign

 

Oh Gosh, is that what I am doing wrong in Vedic/sidereal? I know that sounds stupid, but that is how I was taught.

Except, I have always questioned personally, degrees close to the cusp of a sign because I know how easily they can change signs thus houses if the degree is off by only one degree. It gets very confusing and undermines for me to what ayanamsa is really correct in these situations too. I guess it’s my Virgo coming out. Wanting to be split hair accurate because I know how a whole can be thrown off. So, if I use degrees to measure 15* either side, houses change but signs extend?! On my software my Bhava chart does not give degrees so only shows change of signs which then shows change of (numbered) houses.

 

D

 

 

 

Mark Kincaid [m.kincaid] Saturday, May 22, 2004 10:26 PM Subject: 2-debra & all: > Mark K...5/22..... Re: Aspects across signs- OrBhava vs Rasi Charts....

 

Dear Debra:Don't forget.....the bhava chart won't change any planets into different signs,...only different houses, potentially...Those planets that are beyond the 30 degrees of the exact rising sign degree,...15 degreeseither way... will move..So, if Rising sign is 28 degrees of Cancer....then... the lst House in the Bhava chart...Now, remember, count 15 degrees both ways...So, from 28th degree Cancer... 15 degrees into Cancer...means...lst house will start at 13th degree of Cancer...And 15 degrees the other way, means 2 more degrees of Cancer, and then 13 degrees of Leo, in the first house...So, first house for this person would be from 13 degrees of Cancer to 13th degree of Leo....Now, any planets in the earliest degrees....in their signs... say 0 - 13th degrees.... will be found moving and/or influencing.... another sign...So, if the Sun's at 8 degrees, of Cancer...according to the rasi chart.... even though the rising sign is really beginning at the 28th degree of Cancer, according to the Rasi chart system,...the Sun will still be in the first house...But, good astrologers...will look and notice that the rising sign's on the cusp, and therefore, look at any planets that are not in that 15 degrees from both sides of the 28th degree...So, if the Sun's at 8 degrees.... in the Bhava chart... the 8th degree of Cancer...itself slips into the 12th house...and thefore so does the Sun!Mark K.

"Debra Mehren" <dqm51 Date: Sat, 22 May 2004 20:53:52 -0500RE: 2-Bettina, & all: > Mark K...5/22..... Re: Aspects across signs- Or Bhava vs Rasi Charts....

 

 

Dear Bettina, Mark, MuMin and all I am particularly interested in this topic because I have several charts that have this unique degree shift potential. Other than defining the ayanamsha one way over another, I find this dilemma a very real impact on accuracy of a chart. Most of the time the bhava chart will reassign a planet to another sign and house but the Rashi degree obviously stays the same in sign and house on the cusp - with defining the chart accurately, ambiguous. Ayanmasha can change the degree placement but that¹s not necessarily accurate either. I have one chart in particular where the Moon is on the cusp at 0* Capricorn and Saturn at 28* in another sign Libra. If one were to look at the bhava chart, one would see that the Moon has moved backwards to Sagittarius and the Saturn has moved ahead to Scorpio. There is enough degree change too within the signs where the other planets are that the whole chart takes on a whole other meaning. Which one is more accurate? If one were to change the ayanamsha, then the Asc changes houses beside the Moon and Saturn. YIKES. I think this is where the true experts in the field are different from others being more accurate when they have the skills, the wisdom and the talent to decipher the difference and know how to accurately interpret. Any suggestions? 7/3/1985 ­ 8:16am (CDT) ­ 87 W 48, 42 N 10 Lahiri Asc: Cancer Mark Kincaid [m.kincaid] Saturday, May 22, 2004 7:33 PM Subject: 2-Bettina, & all: > Mark K...5/22..... Re: Aspects across signs- Or Bhava vs Rasi Charts.... Dear Bettina & All:This is a great question.There is a wonderul difference between someone who's got their Rising Sign in the lst degree of Aries...and someone who's Rising....Signs.... at 29 degrees....The system you mention, creating a first house, from that exact.... moment... is called the Bhavachart in Jyotish...This is used especially when any planets are not within 15 degrees, either way of the Rising Sign, exact degree...This is expecially significant when people are born 'on the cusp' between 2 signs...Because, quite often, planets will move into different houses, in the Bhava Chart,....It's often looked at by any Astrologer... because it represents a subtlety.... that's very real....The key, is to consider,....finding....if the different rules... fit you!And if they do, which is the point of all these great Vedic Jyotish.... principles....then, the subtleties.... of our unique charts....comes forward....Sincerely,Mark K."Bettina" <chiria Date: Sat, 15 May 2004 21:09:27 -0700RE: Re: Aspects across signs

Thanks, Therese. Now I'll have to try to apply that.... BettinaTherese Hamilton [eastwest]Saturday, May 15, 2004 5:39 PM Subject: Re: Aspects across signsAt 11:05 AM 5/15/04 -0700, Bettina wrote:Dear Mu and Whoever Else Can Answer these Question ...I have a question. Some Vedic astrologers use the "sign as house" methodwhile others use the method of a house being 15 degs on either side of thecusp, and any planet in that 30 deg area is considered to be in that house,even if it's in a different sign from the one on the cusp. Here's an example: a young man has his Sun in 1 deg of Leo. He has 26degs of Cancer rising. Mu (and all), would you consider that to be a firsthouse Sun, or a 2nd house Sun? Or ... a 2nd house Sun which is nonethelesscnj. the asc? Which system works best for you folks out there?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Bettina, I use sign-as-house for the yogas, for example if the lord of first is withthe lord of 9th, that is raja yoga. However, if this conjunction happens tobe within 15 degrees of the 8th cusp, then the yoga is weak because it's inthe 8th house. Or else it applies to 8th house affairs. An example of planet changing house is in the chart of ParamahansaYogananda. Y had 6 Leo rising, Jupiter in 24 Pisces. Jupiter is the 8thsign-as-house, but the 9th equal house. For a spiritual guru, Jupiter in9th is a better fit than Jupiter in the 8th. However, Jupiter is strong inits own sign, and *as lord of 5th*, Y had no children. So in consideringplanets as house lords, sign-as-house is important. Taking the planetalone, Jupiter in 9th is a better fit.~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~>>Another question: do out of sign asps work if they're major asps andvery close? I know that strict Vedic-ists say no, but I'm not convincedthat they're correct. So, if Venus were in, say, 29 degs of Aries andSaturn in 1 deg Taurus, would they influence each other or no?~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ I discovered something very interesting when I studied a group ofearthquake and quake ingress charts a while ago. (Some of these are postedon / in the files sectionin the Earthquake Charts folder. Very often the critical quake aspectscrossed signs. For example the Sun might be in 29 Leo opposing Uranus at 1Pisces. From this I concluded that aspects **do** have effect across signs,but they may be critical or unstable. The fact that two planets are on signcusps would indicate change or instability. Therese