2-Flick......4/8....Western & Eastern...Astrologys

[Guest guest]

Dear Flick:

 

No problem... I enjoy, though very much your Western perspective, because

even though I do enjoy, Jyotish the best...

 

I do, however, believe that the truest Astrology, is really somewhere, out

there, in life, itself...and both West and East versions, are only getting a

partial glimpse of 'it'....

 

That's why I've created this concept of a 'nature's astrology'...because I

believe there are some serious problems with Jyotish, it's habit of being

too fatalistic, and not taking more into account the importance of the Sun,

and especially, the transformative power of life!

 

However, Western has challenges too, not least of which is being different

then the actual, calculations of the Planets... like Astronomy!

 

And the West, though it's more clear, especially, Psychologically, still it

can gain a lot from traditional Jyotish, it's past, it's heritage, being

connected to this great, Vedic tradition...

 

I'm also, trying to help, usher in the day, when Astrology can re-assume,

it's rightful place....as a truely modern, and yes, even Science of

Astrology!

 

How great would that be!

 

thanks for all your interest and comments.

 

 

Sincerely,

 

 

 

Mark Kincaid

 

 

 

 

> Flick <rubysun

>

> Thu, 08 Apr 2004 08:29:28 +0100

>

> Re: 2-Flick......4/7....Re: Western &

> Eastern...Astrologys

>

> Hi Mark,

>

> Well, no it wasn't helpful as you were putting me right on factors I hadn't

> actually broached, so I was confused. Ah well, we can expect this sort of

> crossed wires with Mercury retrograding :-) I think I know what the

> misunderstanding was that caused you to send me a long email detailing your

> relationship with money. I mentioned being earthed through Saturn and you

> possibly thought the word was earned? Easy to do when reading a lot of

> emails, I know. I meant grounded, as in Saturn being an anchor rather than a

> block. My reference to groups and organisations was meant to cover any kind

> of association with any group, including ecological and spiritual...I

> believe you have associations with the TM movement?

>

> Never mind. I'm not here to defend one system over another, or to pick up

> info about western astrology (after 30 years of it, I think I can navigate

> the learning process independently). I've joined three jyotish groups to

> learn Vedic astrology as I've only been studying that for two or three years

> and so far have only certification for 100 hours for ACVA. The little bits

> of info I get from people like yourself who have practiced for some time are

> invaluable - they are the details that flesh out the structure my course is

> teaching me...so thank you for that.

>

> Flick.

> Author website:

> http://www.witchcraft.org/elenhawke.htm

>

>

> On 7/4/04 5:27 pm, " Mark Kincaid " <m.kincaid wrote:

>

>> Dear Flick:

>>

>> Don't get me wrong. I just meant to show how I experience my chart and

>> thought it might be helpful for you.

>>

>> I'm hopeing in this ...to walk on a common ground to

>> understand the best of both systems...

>>

>> I believe each system has some important things to teach us about Nature's

>> Astrology....and hope these cordial converstions will further that

>> development..

>>

>> Yours truely,

>>

>>

>> Mark K

>>

>>

>>

>>

>>> Flick <rubysun

>>>

>>> Wed, 07 Apr 2004 16:20:06 +0100

>>>

>>> Re: 2-Flick & Anne:......4/7....Re: Moon & Other

>>> Simultaneous Astrological Forces....!

>>>

>>> Mark, you've got the total wrong end of the stick about what I was saying. I

>>> was not referring to earning money...you're mixing this up with the Jyotish

>>> 11th house meaning. I was talking about the western 11th house meaning of

>>> being involved with groups and organisations, including spiritual ones. In

>>> fact I wasn't looking at your wealth or capacity to earn money at all. Gosh,

>>> you've devoted a whole message to putting me right about your money earning

>>> capacities, and I never mentioned them once or even looked at them.

>>>

>>> The sadness and depression you mention can be indicative of Neptune in the

>>> 12th...I believe it's Isabel Hickey who refers to this placement as being

>>> far from home on a foggy night, and deep loneliness. Of course it is also,

>>> as you say, a function of Moon/Saturn.

>>>

>>> A lot of the reactions you've given me are based on your taking the Vedic

>>> meanings for planetary positions. Western astrology treats these quite

>>> differently. I find that certain traits will come out through one set of

>>> characteristics with western astrology and another with Vedic astrology, but

>>> either system will describe the person. Western astrology is more

>>> psychologically based with more leeway to interpret things positively, Vedic

>>> astrology is more finely tuned and accurate when it comes to breaking down

>>> the mundane details of life. Both are deeply spiritual in different ways. I

>>> certainly have no stake in pushing western astrology over Vedic - at the

>>> moment I prefer the latter.

>>>

>>> On 7/4/04 3:21 pm, " Mark Kincaid " <m.kincaid wrote:

>>>

>>>> Dear Flick & Anne:

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> I think my 'devotion' comes from both my Moon in the 12th...but more it's

>>>> 7th House aspect from my Jupiter in Pisces in the 6th....

>>>>

>>>> flick, in my Jyotish chart, my Saturn's in the 12th...and not in my 11th,

>>>> according to the Western version. And I really think that fits me better.

>>>>

>>>> My problem is not income coming in, ie. the 11th house, I've got Sun,

>>>> Mercury, Venus & Ketu, in the 11th...all in Leo!

>>>>

>>>> so, making money has not been my problem,...but the problem (ie. saturn)

>>>> being in the 12th house, has been very indicative, of money going out!

>>>>

>>>> I've had a much harder time, either holding onto money, or not even careing

>>>> about savings....

>>>>

>>>> I remember my dad for years trying to encourage me to save...and I had such

>>>> a renunciation, kind of reaction, like God, would provide... which is much

>>>> more symbolic of Moon with Saturn and both in the 12th house, which is a

>>>> house of renunciation, anyway.

>>>>

>>>> Also, another thing in my life, that fits the Eastern version better is the

>>>> fact, that I've had such 'depression', and loneliness, and mental and

>>>> emotional anxieties,...

>>>>

>>>> These are all symbolic of a close proximity of Moon to Saturn, and being in

>>>> the 12th house too.

>>>>

>>>> Flick you also mention, earning through groups and organizations, and this

>>>> has not actually been true. Since I've been 20 years old, actually even

>>>> when I was a teenager, I had my own lawn cutting business.

>>>>

>>>> But, 90% of my working life, I've had businesses of my own. I've owned by

>>>> own Construction businesses, and even when I taught meditation, which

>>>> should

>>>> have been an occassion of working with others, I often found myself, again,

>>>> alone, in centers, or cities, where I was the only one, again, teaching on

>>>> my own.

>>>>

>>>> This new venture of being involved in our ,...group and my

>>>> r's lists... it's a 'group'.... but it's a new thing for me, being

>>>> involved with lots of people, and I think this is a reflection of how much

>>>> I've grown over the years both with meditation and with Jyotish, that I can

>>>> now, be involved with lots of people, and still be true to my intense 'Leo'

>>>> nature, and independence...

>>>>

>>>> Another thing you mention flick is my western chart having Mars in Leo...

>>>>

>>>> I only wish that was true! In my Jyotish chart, my Mars is in Cancer, in

>>>> my

>>>> 10th house, and I have had a timid, and weak kind of Marish side to me.

>>>>

>>>> One time, I returned home from trying to collect money from one of my

>>>> construction clients and I told my wife, 'oh, .... they made me deduct 200

>>>> or 300$, again....'

>>>>

>>>> She, turned to me and said, 'Mark your generosity is killing us'...

>>>>

>>>> And that was a mind turned for me. I always thought that by being more

>>>> harmonious, giving, (ie. cancerish) and not confrontational, it would be

>>>> better.

>>>>

>>>> And in one moment I realized, 'wow, I have a side to me, where I let people

>>>> take advantage of me!'....

>>>>

>>>> Now, that's a good description of Mars in Cancer and not Leo!

>>>>

>>>> Though I certainly have a lot of Leo, too, if you consider, Sun, Mercury,

>>>> Venus and Ketu....being in Leo in my Jyotish chart...hehhehe

>>>>

>>>> Anyway, it's quite fun....looking at both systems...

>>>>

>>>> I do think the Jyotish charts are more accurate, but I also believe that

>>>> there are aspects to Western Astrology which are more true then, Jyotish

>>>> understands...

>>>>

>>>> For example, Jyotish believes more in fate, which I think is a big mistake,

>>>> and Jyotish also believes that the Moon is more important, then even the

>>>> Sun.

>>>>

>>>> However, I believe the Western notion of the importance of the Sun is worth

>>>> noting and the Western view that we have free will, and are here to grow,

>>>> evolve and especially improve ourselves...

>>>>

>>>> unlike the eastern perspective of mostly accepting our chart, lot in life!

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Nice talking with you all!

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Sincerely,

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>> Mark K.

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>

>>>>> " hagazussah " <hagazussa

>>>>>

>>>>> Wed, 07 Apr 2004 07:39:36 -0000

>>>>>

>>>>> 2-Flick...4/6....Re: Moon & Other Simultaneous

>>>>> Astrological Forces....!

>>>>>

>>>>> Hi Flick,

>>>>>

>>>>> Was this in western astrology or in Jyotish? The description of

>>>>> saturn in the 11th house struck me. I have in western astrology also

>>>>> saturn in 11 (but severely afflicted by venus and mars in taurus). I

>>>>> think it is the force of serendipity that leads me to learn a lot

>>>>> from Mark!

>>>>>

>>>>> Anne

>>>>>

>>>>>

>>>>> , Flick <rubysun@n...> wrote:

>>>>>> On 6/4/04 7:32 pm, " Mark Kincaid " <m.kincaid@m...> wrote:

>>>>>>

>>>>>>> mine is sept. 4, 1951 11:17am Kansas City, MO, Libra

>>>>> Rising .....

>>>>>>> 22 degrees....

>>>>>>

>>>>>> Mark, I still don't have Parashara's Light. However, using western

>>>>> software,

>>>>>> you have a very close conjunction of Moon and Neptune in the 12th.

>>>>> Very

>>>>>> devotional and diffuse. No wonder you had to make friends with

>>>>> Saturn: there

>>>>>> he is in your 11th house, earthing you through your activity in

>>>>> groups and

>>>>>> organisations, thus allowing that very focused, fiery,

>>>>> enthusiastic Mars in

>>>>>> Leo to blaze a trail through your 9th house, bringing your very

>>>>>> individualistic spiritual philosophy out into the world.

>

>

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

On 8/4/04 6:44 pm, " Mark Kincaid " <m.kincaid wrote:

 

> Dear Flick:

>

> No problem... I enjoy, though very much your Western perspective, because

> even though I do enjoy, Jyotish the best...

 

Well, I enjoy jyotish the best too.

>

> I do, however, believe that the truest Astrology, is really somewhere, out

> there, in life, itself...and both West and East versions, are only getting a

> partial glimpse of 'it'....

 

Once again agreed. And each system up till now has operated through cultural

and geographic perspectives. If you live in India, then of course the sun is

seen as malefic and cruel...if you live in northern Europe, then you might

view it differently as you try to glimpse it through yet another cloudy sky!

As the two systems collide, and as more and more Indian people emigrate to

or are born in more northern climates, and as more and more people of all

cultural backgrounds share ideas over the Internet, then I would expect a

cross fertilisation of astrological ideas to accelerate with a subsequent

broadening of perspectives from both types of astrology.

>

> That's why I've created this concept of a 'nature's astrology'...because I

> believe there are some serious problems with Jyotish, it's habit of being

> too fatalistic, and not taking more into account the importance of the Sun,

> and especially, the transformative power of life!

 

The course I'm doing has a less fatalistic slant (though the more dire

meanings are explained as well). For example, I challenged my tutor with the

purpose of maraka planets, as it seemed to me that death can mean many

things other than physical death, and that some of these can be a blessing,

such as letting go when you need to move on...i.e, death is change, which is

part of growth: he agreed with this and said one has to ask what is dying.

For example, recently supporting my weak (in shadballah) sun led to my being

motivated to let certain things go to people who would need them more than

me now that I've left a phase of my life behind to which they were relevant.

The sun rules my second, though it is neutral, is in 6th which is a good

placement for it, and is friends with my chart ruler, so I've so far had

good results from supporting a maraka.

>

> However, Western has challenges too, not least of which is being different

> then the actual, calculations of the Planets... like Astronomy!

 

I agree, though surprisingly it works, and I've had astounding results over

the years. But then western astrology relies on symbolism and intuition to a

great degree. Western astrology lost much when the moon was de-emphasised in

favour of the sun and its more rational qualities during the Age of Reason.

Personally I've always used equal house in my western charts and have been

more concerned with houses and aspects than sun signs. However, I do find

the physical descriptions of sun, moon and ascendant characteristic far more

accurate in western astrology - EVEN WHEN the ayanamsha is taken into

consideration with births later in a sign. My Vedic ascendant is Cancer, but

I'm VERY much a Leo, as in my western ascendant, very out-going, dramatic,

strong minded, enthusiastic etc...though I also have characteristics of

Cancer. But then relying on symbolism is very apt for a system onto which

Jungian thought has been so thoroughly grafted.

>

> And the West, though it's more clear, especially, Psychologically, still it

> can gain a lot from traditional Jyotish, it's past, it's heritage, being

> connected to this great, Vedic tradition...

 

Though one theory is that Vedic astrology grafted on Greek astrological

descriptions of some characteristic of the planets in signs. I certainly

find its attempts to describe people through signs the least satisfying of

its techniques. Having said that, I agree about the Vedic tradition. The

first book I ever read on jyotish, and the one that inspired my interest,

was Light on Life by Hart De Fouw and Robert Savota (might have spelled

those wrong...too lazy to go and check this early in the morning); the book

left me with a feeling of bliss, which I'm sure is the energy imparted by

the topic - I wanted to explore that bliss.

>

>