Guest guest Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 Dear Swami ji, 1. I feel that the Vedic astrologers are not crazy for the BTR. They try to jsutify how Indira Gandhi reached to her peak during Sat-Sat DB as per the TOB 11:11 PM with difficulties by saying Satun's favorable position as per chapter 43 of the BPHS and in the navamsa, Saravali, Bhavar the Ratnakara, D10, atma karaka, and two negatives making positive through so many adverse affects on the 8th etc. Also it is also very dfficult for them to justify the Tagore's death during the DB Jup-Jup, which is lord of lagna and is also exalted in the 9th from Arudha lagna (as per Jaimini), and they opted to justify by taking the starlord of Jupiter, in stead of changing the TOB. 2. The justification by the life events is to convince the rectified TOB is reliable. Mrs. Kousalya Sattainathan also justify the Indra's " 50 " major events in her " KP's Astrology & Prime Ministers " by using the TOB 23:40:48 IST (Asc Leo 4:11:44). But the historical records are around 11:11 PM as shown below and the Cancer Asc seems more reasonable in comparing with the charts of Tony Blair and George W Bush. 3. There is no wrong or correct TOB but only the rectified, and AA, A, B, C etc according to the clasification of the AstroDatabank. 4. The most important thing in astrology is prediction and the post mortem justification to learn and check the rules. Regards, tw From Msg#6579 I--INDIRA GANDHI TOBs (1) around 11 PM IST, Biography by (a) Katherine Frank; (b) Pranay Gupte (2) 11:03 PM IST, Sanjay Rath: Crux of Vedic Astrology, p 49 & 344 (3) 11:07 PM IST, PVR Narasimha Rao, " Predicting with Dasamsa " , Astrological Magazine, Jan 2003, p 87 (4) 11:10 PM IST http://www.indianastrology.com/learn/artofprediction4.asp (5) 11:11 PM IST (a) K. N. Rao: Nehru Dinesty,p 106 (b) K. N. Rao: Timing Events Through Vimshottari Dasha, p 95 © K. N. Rao: Journal of Astrlogy, http://www.journalofastrology.com/archives/Gandhi_Family.htm (d) • SJC, BirthDataBank2.zip Famous Birth Charts Ver 2.0 (e) Chandulal S. Patel: Predicting Through Navamsa & Nadi Astrology, p 112 (f) J. N. Bhasin: Art of Prediction p 256 (g) Col A. K. Gour: The Celestial Delivery Boy, Transt, p 50 (h) http://www.khaldea.com/charts/indiragandhi.shtml (i) http://astrolreport.com/famous-g/gandhi.indira.htm (j) AstroDatabank, rated A from memory (k) Robert Jansky quotes her private secretary, " 41 Ghatis 52 Phals and 23 Viphas = 11:11:14 PM IST " (6) 11:15 PM (a) Sumeet Chugh: Determing Profession and Ups & Downs in Career, p 94; (b) M.N. Kedar: Judgement of Bhavas & Timing of Eventd through Dasa and Transit, p 10 (7) 11:20 PM IST by Hart de Fouw & Robert Svoboda, Light on Life, p 365 (8) 11:39 PM IST by BV Raman in Astrological Magazine (9) 23:40:48 PM IST by Kousalya Sattainathan: KP's ASTROLOGY & PRIME MINISTERS, Krishnamurti Publications, p 95 , " swami " <swami wrote: > > > || Om Gurave Namah || > Om SreeMahaGanaadhipataye Namah > Hari Om, > Dear TW ji > Then how you feel KP explains/ justifies life events (almost Fifteen) as written by Prof KSK himself based on wrong chart. > Is astrology a science of justification? > He did not predict on this chart for want of her permission . > Any views? > OM TATSAT > ------------------------ > Swami_RCS > ----------------------- > " Let us meditate on the glorious effulgence of that Divine Being who has created the three worlds.May He Direct our understanding. " > - - > > - > tw853 > > Friday, August 15, 2008 7:47 AM > Re: BTR CONFUSION > > > Dear Swami ji, > > 1. If so, there is no reason to be crazy for the BTR. > > 2. I had got this BTR of Indira Gandhi. This BTRed time is too far > from the historical records of around 11:11 PM to be accepatable. > > Thanks and regards, > > tw > > , " swami " <swami@> wrote: > > > > > > || Om Gurave Namah || > > Om SreeMahaGanaadhipataye Namah > > Hari Om, > > Dear TWji, > > Very imprtant question.I was just glancing KP reader vol i.I did > not find a single example of reading a chart where in rectifcation > is undertaken before chart reading. > > Alhough many say Birth time should be rectified first and then > chart should be casted,How many follow it? > > I do not know, but in serious work I certainly do conduct check > but I am no expert in KP method so i use vedic methods. > > Perhaps only writing i know is of chart of Indira gandhi where he > rectified the chart and published article about events in her life.( > ref A & A July 1971) > > He undertook rectification on 3 may 1971 at 13:08 IST at Delhi. > > ( unfortunaetly He did not say how he arrived at rectified Birth > time although He told sign-star sub based on RP and talked of > Prenatal epoch theory) > > He gave chart did not mention rectified Birth time.Just for > interested students,I woked it out .with Ayanamsa 22:37:14 the BT is > 11:39:29PM with ASC Leo 3D42M04S. > > There may be more , but this is what i remember at the moment. > > with regards > > OM TATSAT > > ------------------------ > > Swami_RCS > > ----------------------- > > " Let us meditate on the glorious effulgence of that Divine Being > who has created the three worlds.May He Direct our understanding. " > > ------------------------- > - > > > > - > > tw853 > > > > Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:57 PM > > Re: BTR CONFUSION > > > > > > > > Dear All, > > > > In the KP Readers, are there how many practicle examples that > Guruji KSK " first " BTRed and only after that made the chart > analysis?. > > > > Thanks and regards, > > > > tw > > > > > > > > > > Food for Thought > > > > > > Only at the end of his Krishnamurti Padghdhati, KP Reader III or > the original KP Vol. 2, the sole forceful words user Guruji says, " I > shall give some of the methods which are available. How far you can > rely on them, is entirely to you, to the readers andholar and to the > research scholars. " > > > > > > Regarding the doubt about correct Time of Birth, it is an > established fact that it is next to impossible to fix a correct time > of birth, the reason being none knows what is the criteria to be > followed to find out the correct time of birth. Even a Doctor who is > also an Astrologer, has said that when he wanted to know the correct > time of birth for his two daughters by making himself present in the > labour room where the delivery took place, he has failed in his > attempt. He says when the head came out of the womb of the Mother a > very low hizzing noise came from the new born Child. At that stage > neither the full body of the child came out nor the umbilical card > was cut. He was doubtful whether the low hizzing noise indicates the > first breath taken by the child etc. and if so that can be taken as > correct time of birth. > > > > -K.P. Kuppu Ganapathi (22-12-2005) > > > > > > > > Before concluding I would like to draw your kind attention to > the writing of Dr.Satyaprakash Choudhary, a copy of which I have > already sent. I have also seen that this write up has been discussed > in the KP Groups, two or three times and tw has already mentioned > about it. From that writing one thing is clear viz., we are yet to > understand and decide the mode of recording the correct time of > birth, i.e., whether it is - i) when the child breaths first (when > this happens, no one knows as clearly pointed out by Dr.Satyaprakash > Choudhary) ii) when the child's head appears from the womb of the > Mother, iii) when the child cries first and iv) when the umbilical > cord is cut and Mother and Child is separated. Under these > conditions I am afraid all are in a wild goose chase only and > anybody can apply any rule that works for him at all times. But the > question is whether the same rule helps others also who are in such > situations. Perhaps not. For this there may be umpteen reasons and > causes which cannot be defined. But in my opinion, before taking any > chart, Pray to GURUJI, follow GURUJI'S methods fully and He will > come to your help. > > > > GOOD LUCK > > > > K.P.KUPPU GANAPATHI. (Msg#5054, 16-6-2005) > > > > > > > > > > , " K. P. Naidu " <konathalan@> > wrote: > > > > > > Dear sri Luther Ji, > > > > > > You are absolutely correctin in high lighting the importance > of Birth Time upto exact second, more so in KP system which is based > on sub and sub sub. In traditional Hindu astrology Birth Time > upto exact second may not be that much important. ofcourse it may be > important in divisional charts D-60 and above. > > > > > > Lot of discussion took place in this group on " Birth Time is > the time of new born's 1st breath "  Is the above Birth Time > corrected upto exact second is the time of the native's 1st breath ? > God only knows. Even if some KP astrologer sits in the labor room > with stop watch to record the time of new born's time of 1st breath, > it is a matter of dispute what is 1st breath - 1st cry 1st movement > of hands etc. By the time it is noted it may be 2nd or 3rd or 4th > breath time. who knows except the God. > > > > > > I, therefore, feel that the Birth Time which confirms all the > life events of the native as per existing KP principles, is the > CORRECT AND EXACT BIRTH TIME. > > > > > >  In KPE-zine and Astrovision I found most of the articles on > successful prediction made on natal charts, the Birth Times do not > confirm / satisfy any of the existing RBT theories. Pl note I said > Mostly and not all. Those KP astrologers replied on enquiry, > normally Birth Time is not verified unless doubt expressed by the > native. How many natives know as the importance of exact Birth Time > especially in KP system. > > > The FACT is no body bothers about birth time as long the > prediction comes true > > > I observed in this forum, the discussions MOSTLY on theortical > aspect rather than on practical experience and they safely and > conveniently ignore / hide the practicaly reality. > > > , > > > To avoid all the above problems, MOST of the KP astrologers > are safely and conveniently resorting to HORARY method. > > > > > > Regards. > > > > > > Naidu KP > > > K. P. Naidu, > > > Flat E-1, Prince Aptmts., > > > Nowroji Road, > > > Maharanipeta, > > > VISAKHAPATNAM 530002. > > > Phone Resi: 0891-2712591. > > > > > > --- On Thu, 7/8/08, Luther Rath rathluther@ wrote: > > > Luther Rath rathluther@ > > > Re: Re: BTR CONFUSION > > > > > > Thursday, 7 August, 2008, 5:45 PM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In continuation to previous message: - > > > This is only an example. > > > Supposing : - > > > X is born at     8-07 AM       Ascendant    >    Leo 26-42-07 Sun-Sun-Sun > > >  > > > Leo 26-42-07 = Sun-Sun-Sun- Moon sub-sub > > > Because: - > > >            Sun sub begins at Leo  26-40-00 > > >            Ascendant falls at       26-42- > 07 > > > Who can certify that the birth was exactly at 8-07-00 AM and > not 20 seconds earlier or later? May I bring to notice that watch of > none is rectified to the extent of seconds? When ever some body > mentions time in hour and minute it is always (+) or (-)few seconds. > Hope one and all agree to it. > > >  > > > Ascendant has crossed the arc of 2 minutes allotted to Sun sub- > sub and entered in to Moon sub-sub for 07 seconds of zodiac. > > >  > > > In such a case the birth of X could be at Hr 8-06-57 seconds. > > > This 7 seconds in Moon sub-sub needs 3.333/15*7 = 1.6 or 2 > seconds only. That means 2 seconds earlier than 8-07-00 AM Ascendant > was in Sun sub-sub. A mater of two seconds of time could change the > sub-sub from sun to Moon. > > > That means: - > > > Birth at 8-06-57 Ascendant was at Sun-Sun-Sun- Sun. > > > Birth at 8-07-00 Ascendant was at Sun-Sun-Sun- Moon. > > >  > > > Now one can understand how sensitive is an Ascendant. > > > But the tragedy is the consultant cannot give birth time to be > 8-06-57 A.M. He will only say 8 hours and 7 minutes. And we give > prediction for Moon sub-sub. Does it therefore every one should > rectify birth time to seconds and sub-sub? > > > At present there is so much of controversy to fix the sub of > the ascendant. Discussion continues on Ascendant-Moon relation, > Ascendant-RP relation, Ascendant-IX cusp relation, Ascendant- epoch > relation and may be more. Then what to speak of fixing the sub- sub? > > > There are at least 60 sub-sub zones that pass away with in one > minute; in the zodiac. So during minute wise calculation these are > vulnerable to be missed. So while considering sub-sub of an > Ascendant one must be extremely cautious. The risk is more at the > junctures. > > >  > > > Dr. Luther > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Luther Rath rathluther > > > > @gro ups.com > > > Wednesday, August 6, 2008 8:12:41 PM > > > Re: Re: BTR CONFUSION > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sir, > > > The query is not directed to me, although, I wanted to share > my opinion. I may please be excused for the same. > > > Before we try to find out the answers we have to look in to > the division of sign, star and subs. > > >  > > > 7th August 2008 > > >  > > > 8-06 Am         Ascendant       Leo 26-27- > 56 Sun-Venus-Kethu > > > 8-07 AM        Ascendant       Leo 26-42-07 > Sun-Sun-Sun > > > 8-08 AM        Ascendant       Leo 26-59-19 > Sun-Sun-Sun > > > Every sign of the zodiac covers 30 degrees. So also does Leo. > > > Every star is allotted with 13-20-00 degrees. So also Uttara > Phalguni, ruled by Sun. But the subs have not been allotted > uniformly but according to the allotment done in Vimshodari system. > So also the sub-sub. > > >  > > > In Uttara Phalguni the arc of different planets are as > follows: - > > > Sun gets an arc of                    > 40.0 Mins > > > Kethu                             >          46.7 Mins > > > Mars                             >          46.7 Mins > > > Moon                              >         66.7 Mins > > > Jupiter                           >        106.7 Mins > > > Mercury                           >     113.3 Mins > > > Rahu                             >        120.0 Mins > > > Saturn                            >       126.7 Mins > > > Venus                            >        133.3 Mins > > > Thus while Sun sub gets only 40 minutes Venus gets 133.3 > minuts. So in Sun sub, the sub-sub lords get smaller zones in > comparison to zones in Venus and of course in all other subs. > > > Division of 40 minutes of Sun sub: - > > > Sun gets an arc of                    > 2.000 Mins > > > Kethu                             >          2.333 Mins > > > Mars                             >           2.333 Mins > > > Moon                              >         3.333 Mins > > > Jupiter                           >          5.333 Mins > > > Mercury                           >       5.667 Mins > > > Rahu                             >          6.000 Mins > > > Saturn                            >         6.333 Mins > > > Venus                            >          6.667 Mins > > > The Ascendant takes approximately 2 hours to traverse a sign. > > > 1 Sign =30 degrees = 1800 minutes in arc of zodiacal zone. > > > 2 hours = 120 minutes in time. > > >  > > > So in 120 minutes of time Lagna covers = 1800 minutes of arc. > > > Therefore in 1 minute it covers             = > 1800/120 = 15 minutes of arc. > > > In other words 15 minutes of arc is covered in 1 minute or 60 > seconds. > > > Therefore 1 minutes of arc is covered in 15*60/60 =15 seconds. > > > Let us examine Sunâ?Ts sub that has smallest zone in zodiac. > > > So the time taken by Ascendant to cross each sub-sub will be > as follows: - > > > Sun     15 secs*2.000 =         30 secs > > > Kethu 15 secs*2.333 =         35 secs > > > Mars   15 secs*2.333 =         35 secs > > > Moon  15 secs*3.333 =         50 secs > > > Jupiter 15 secs*5.333 =         1 min-20 secs > > > Mercury15 sec*5.667 =         1 min-25 secs > > > Rahu   15 secs*6.000 =         1 min-30 secs > > > Saturn 15 secs*6.333 =         1 min-35 secs > > > Venus  15 secs*6.667 =         1 min-40 secs > > >  > > > From the above one can come to a conclusion that if the 1st > child is born in Leo in UttaraPhalguni in the sub of Sun and in sub- > sub of son and the second of the twins takes birth only after 30 > seconds the sub-sub changes to Ketu. If the second is born after 1 > min and 40 seconds the sub-sub changes and may be it bypasses 2 or > three sub-subs. So a difference of 2 minutes in birth time brings a > lot of differences in the twins. > > > Let us then examine sub-sub f Venus that has maximum of arc. > > >  > > > Sun     15 secs*6.667 =         1 min-40 secs > > > Kethu 15 secs*7.778 =         1 min-56 secs > > > Mars   15 secs*7.778 =         1 min-56 secs > > > Moon  15 secs*11.111=        2 min-47 secs > > > Jupiter 15 secs*17.778=        4 min-27 secs > > > Mercury15 sec*18.889=         4 min-43 secs > > > Rahu   15 secs*20.000=        5 min-00 secs > > > Saturn 15 secs*21.111=        5 min-17 secs > > > Venus  15 secs*22.222=        5 min-33 secs > > > In case twins are born at a difference of 2 minutes in Sun, > Kethu or Mars sub-sub the sub-sub of the Ascendant will change. If > birth is 5 min and 33 seconds apart in any sub the sub-sub must > change and there will be difference between the twins in many > aspects. > > >  > > > Transit of Moon also will vary accordingly. This variation > will bring about difference in D/B/A/S/P etc.The transit of Moon > shall not change remarkably as the Ascendant does. > > >  > > > Dr. Luther > > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tranquas tranquas > > > > @gro ups..com > > > Tuesday, August 5, 2008 6:20:01 PM > > > Re: BTR CONFUSION > > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Mr. RAO JI and MR. PANDEY JI > > > > > > My strong doubt is moon stays in a star apprx. 24 hrs and in a > sub > > > apprx.2.40 hrs. For this the relative lagna star will be > apprx. 54 > > > mins. sub will be appx. 6 mins and sub/sub is 40 seconds. > > > > > > when moon is in the sub for 2.40hrs and one lagna time of > apprx. 2 > > > hrs the people born on the entire two hrs will get same lagna > sub > > > lord/sub sub lord. > > > > > > SHRI KSK says that even twins born in few mins gap has > different > > > sub/subsub. Even said to take only lagna for prediction since > moon > > > stays long in a star/sub. > > > > > > Kindly seek your valuable advice > > > > > > @gro ups.com, " Punit Pandey " punitp@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Lajmi ji, > > > > > > > > It is addendum to the ascendant-moon connection method. I > believe > > > that > > > > > > > selection of BTR method is astrologer's preference and I don't > > > have any > > > > objection to that. I just wanted to communicate that the > forum is > > > divided on > > > > this topic and not everybody accepts it as a correct method. > I > > > just wanted > > > > to put whole forum's perspective in front of new members. > > > > > > > > Thanks & Regards, > > > > > > > > Punit Pandey > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Yogesh Rao Lajmi > > > lyrastro1@ ..>wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Tranquas & Punit, > > > > > Allow me to refer you to a > > > recent book > > > > > *Progeny & Romance, in the Chapter :* > > > > > *The Prenatal Epoch and Progeny K.P.R.P.,Pp 34 - > 55,examples > > > have been > > > > > given by the author of this article...* > > > > > * ** Perusal of the above will > > > remove all > > > > > myths and prejudices,about Prenatal Epoch in my humble > > > opinion.It has been > > > > > > > > consistently found that the RPs at Birth and the RPs at the > time > > > of > > > > > conception/fertilis ation of the ovum,* > > > > > * * Further to the mehod of > > > BTRT that I > > > > > follow,I do not forget to confirm with > > > RPs...Fortunately, Mr.Raichur' s SW > > > > > gives the RPs of any Chart Horary or Natal along with the > > > planetary and > > > > > cuspal positions up to the sub-sub-sub level... > > > > > The method I use is advocated > > > for > > > > > Birthtimes to be rectified + or - 30 minutes away from the > exact > > > TOB... > > > > > *KSK shared the SECRET.....from > > > Linda > > > > > Goodman's book :* > > > > > " *A woman can conceive only > > > during > > > > > aproximately two hours period,of each Lunar Month,when the > SUN > > > and the MOON > > > > > are exactly the same degrees apart,as they were at the TOB > of > > > the* *Female > > > > > in question*... " > > > > > With best wishes, > > > > > > > > L.Y.Rao. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Punit Pandey punitp@ > > > > > @gro ups.com > > > > > Tuesday, 5 August, 2008 10:39:59 AM > > > > > Re: BTR CONFUSION > > > > > > > > > > Dear Tranquas ji, > > > > > > > > > > Just want to point out that the forum is divided on the > accuracy > > > of this > > > > > method. Please check old archive on this topic and the > file > > > section. > > > > > > > > > > Lajmi ji is one of the strong believer of this method and > some > > > other senior > > > > > members don't believe this method. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks & Regards, > > > > > > > > > > Punit Pandey > > > > > Twitter: http://twitter. com/punitastrolo > > > ger<http://twitter. com/punitastrolo ger> > > > > > FriendFeed: http://friendfeed. com/punitastrolo > > > ger<http://friendfeed. com/punitastrolo ger> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 7:58 AM, tranquas tranquas (AT) (DOT) > > > com<tranquas@ ...> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Respected seniors, > > > > >> > > > > >> PL.clarify on bitrh time rectification: > > > > >> > > > > >> Shri KSK got a flash when he studied TWINS BIRTH CHART > who born > > > in a > > > > >> few minutes difference with same LAGNA, MOON STAR AND > SUB. But > > > > >> > > > between the twins there is much much difference in all > > > activities. > > > > >> > > > > >> Then only he determined that the LAGNA SUB IS TOTALLY > DIFFERENT > > > AND > > > > >> THIS IS THE DIRECTOR and evolved more. > > > > >> > > > > >> In the forum BTR is explained as to take MOON STAR LORD > AND SUB > > > LORD > > > > >> as lagna sub lord and sub sub lord. > > > > >> > > > > >> If we take for example STAR LORD SUN and sublord SUN, for > a > > > given > > > > >> lagna the period varies from 33 minutes(may 1,1966,lagna > > > tarus,time > > > > >> 8.25to8.58) to 1 hour17min.(august 27,1966 virgo, time > 7.42 to > > > 8.59) > > > > >> (At7.42am, 1.31@lagna-sun/ jupiter to 8.59am, > 20.53@moon/ven, > > > here it > > > > >> is not possible to take sun as lagna sublord since sun > sub is > > > coming > > > > >> at 9.07am only, at that time moon is in sun/moon > > > > >> > > > > >> If we > > > adjust as per BTR the people born or even twins on this > > > moon > > > > >> star/sub will get same lagna sublord even though there is > much > > > time > > > > >> gap. > > > > >> > > > > >> ISN'T CONTRADICTS SHRI KSK > > > > >> pl.advice > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > ------------ --------- --------- > > > > > Get an email ID as yourname@ or yourname@ Click > > > > > > > > here.<http://in.rd. / tagline_dbid_ > 4/*http:/ /in.promos. .c > > > om/address> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Share files, take polls, and make new friends - all under one > roof. 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Guest guest Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 Dear Sirs, After reading the message one conceives that Late. Mrs. Indira Gandhi was born any time between 11 to 11-40 AM. Inspite of such a long gap the prominent strologers have predicted her life events correctly. Firstly I would like to rule out that the predictions were post-facto and attempt was made to justify the incidents. Secondly, if every atrologer was right though they differed grossly in birth time,then exact birth time is not needed to predict events. Thirdlly, the traditional astrologers examine the charts for planets and cusps from sign to sign, not giving importance to constellations and subs, is that the adventage of predicting correctly in abscence of pin-pointed birth time? Are we wrong running after BTR? Are we going beyond necessity? Swamiji says Prof. Krishnamurty did give examples, quite a number, with out BTR. What does it mean? Did KSK did not feel the necessity of BTR? May I have the clerifications on the above points please? Dr. Luther tw853 <tw853 Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:33:22 PM Re: BTR CONFSUSION Dear Swami ji,1. I feel that the Vedic astrologers are not crazy for the BTR. They try to jsutify how Indira Gandhi reached to her peak during Sat-Sat DB as per the TOB 11:11 PM with difficulties by saying Satun's favorable position as per chapter 43 of the BPHS and in the navamsa, Saravali, Bhavar the Ratnakara, D10, atma karaka, and two negatives making positive through so many adverse affects on the 8th etc. Also it is also very dfficult for them to justify the Tagore's death during the DB Jup-Jup, which is lord of lagna and is also exalted in the 9th from Arudha lagna (as per Jaimini), and they opted to justify by taking the starlord of Jupiter, in stead of changing the TOB. 2. The justification by the life events is to convince the rectified TOB is reliable. Mrs. Kousalya Sattainathan also justify the Indra's "50" major events in her "KP's Astrology & Prime Ministers" by using the TOB 23:40:48 IST (Asc Leo 4:11:44). But the historical records are around 11:11 PM as shown below and the Cancer Asc seems more reasonable in comparing with the charts of Tony Blair and George W Bush. 3. There is no wrong or correct TOB but only the rectified, and AA, A, B, C etc according to the clasification of the AstroDatabank.4. The most important thing in astrology is prediction and the post mortem justification to learn and check the rules. Regards,twFrom Msg#6579I--INDIRA GANDHITOBs(1) around 11 PM IST, Biography by (a) Katherine Frank; (b) PranayGupte(2) 11:03 PM IST, Sanjay Rath: Crux of Vedic Astrology, p 49 & 344(3) 11:07 PM IST, PVR Narasimha Rao, "Predicting with Dasamsa",Astrological Magazine, Jan 2003, p 87(4) 11:10 PM ISThttp://www.indianas trology.com/ learn/artofpredi ction4.asp(5) 11:11 PM IST(a) K. N. Rao: Nehru Dinesty,p 106(b) K. N. Rao: Timing Events Through Vimshottari Dasha, p 95© K. N. Rao: Journal of Astrlogy,http://www.journalo fastrology. com/archives/ Gandhi_Family. htm(d) • SJC, BirthDataBank2. zip Famous Birth ChartsVer 2.0(e) Chandulal S. Patel: Predicting Through Navamsa & NadiAstrology, p 112(f) J. N. Bhasin: Art of Prediction p 256(g) Col A. K. Gour: The Celestial Delivery Boy, Transt, p 50(h) http://www.khaldea. com/charts/ indiragandhi. shtml(i) http://astrolreport .com/famous- g/gandhi. indira.htm(j) AstroDatabank, rated A from memory(k) Robert Jansky quotes her private secretary, "41 Ghatis 52 Phalsand 23 Viphas = 11:11:14 PM IST"(6) 11:15 PM(a) Sumeet Chugh: Determing Profession and Ups & Downs in Career,p 94;(b) M.N. Kedar: Judgement of Bhavas & Timing of Eventd through Dasaand Transit, p 10(7) 11:20 PM IST by Hart de Fouw & Robert Svoboda, Light on Life, p365(8) 11:39 PM IST by BV Raman in Astrological Magazine(9) 23:40:48 PM IST by Kousalya Sattainathan: KP's ASTROLOGY & PRIMEMINISTERS, Krishnamurti Publications, p 95@gro ups.com, "swami" <swami wrote:>> > || Om Gurave Namah ||> Om SreeMahaGanaadhipat aye Namah> Hari Om,> Dear TW ji > Then how you feel KP explains/ justifies life events (almost Fifteen) as written by Prof KSK himself based on wrong chart.> Is astrology a science of justification?> He did not predict on this chart for want of her permission .> Any views?> OM TATSAT> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------> Swami_RCS > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------> " Let us meditate on the glorious effulgence of that Divine Being who has created the three worlds.May He Direct our understanding. "> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --> > - > tw853 > @gro ups.com > Friday, August 15, 2008 7:47 AM> Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > Dear Swami ji,> > 1. If so, there is no reason to be crazy for the BTR.> > 2. I had got this BTR of Indira Gandhi. This BTRed time is too far > from the historical records of around 11:11 PM to be accepatable.> > Thanks and regards,> > tw> > @gro ups.com, "swami" <swami@> wrote:> >> > > > || Om Gurave Namah ||> > Om SreeMahaGanaadhipat aye Namah> > Hari Om,> > Dear TWji,> > Very imprtant question.I was just glancing KP reader vol i.I did > not find a single example of reading a chart where in rectifcation > is undertaken before chart reading.> > Alhough many say Birth time should be rectified first and then > chart should be casted,How many follow it?> > I do not know, but in serious work I certainly do conduct check > but I am no expert in KP method so i use vedic methods.> > Perhaps only writing i know is of chart of Indira gandhi where he > rectified the chart and published article about events in her life.( > ref A & A July 1971)> > He undertook rectification on 3 may 1971 at 13:08 IST at Delhi.> > ( unfortunaetly He did not say how he arrived at rectified Birth > time although He told sign-star sub based on RP and talked of > Prenatal epoch theory)> > He gave chart did not mention rectified Birth time.Just for > interested students,I woked it out ..with Ayanamsa 22:37:14 the BT is > 11:39:29PM with ASC Leo 3D42M04S.> > There may be more , but this is what i remember at the moment.> > with regards> > OM TATSAT> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------> > Swami_RCS > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------> > " Let us meditate on the glorious effulgence of that Divine Being > who has created the three worlds.May He Direct our understanding. "> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> -> > > > - > > tw853 > > @gro ups.com > > Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:57 PM> > Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > > > > > > Dear All,> > > > In the KP Readers, are there how many practicle examples that > Guruji KSK "first" BTRed and only after that made the chart > analysis?. > > > > Thanks and regards,> > > > tw> > > > > > > > > > Food for Thought> > > > > > Only at the end of his Krishnamurti Padghdhati, KP Reader III or > the original KP Vol. 2, the sole forceful words user Guruji says, "I > shall give some of the methods which are available. How far you can > rely on them, is entirely to you, to the readers andholar and to the > research scholars."> > > > > > Regarding the doubt about correct Time of Birth, it is an > established fact that it is next to impossible to fix a correct time > of birth, the reason being none knows what is the criteria to be > followed to find out the correct time of birth. Even a Doctor who is > also an Astrologer, has said that when he wanted to know the correct > time of birth for his two daughters by making himself present in the > labour room where the delivery took place, he has failed in his > attempt. He says when the head came out of the womb of the Mother a > very low hizzing noise came from the new born Child. At that stage > neither the full body of the child came out nor the umbilical card > was cut. He was doubtful whether the low hizzing noise indicates the > first breath taken by the child etc. and if so that can be taken as > correct time of birth. > > > > -K.P. Kuppu Ganapathi (22-12-2005)> > > > > > > > Before concluding I would like to draw your kind attention to > the writing of Dr.Satyaprakash Choudhary, a copy of which I have > already sent. I have also seen that this write up has been discussed > in the KP Groups, two or three times and tw has already mentioned > about it. From that writing one thing is clear viz., we are yet to > understand and decide the mode of recording the correct time of > birth, i.e., whether it is - i) when the child breaths first (when > this happens, no one knows as clearly pointed out by Dr.Satyaprakash > Choudhary) ii) when the child's head appears from the womb of the > Mother, iii) when the child cries first and iv) when the umbilical > cord is cut and Mother and Child is separated. Under these > conditions I am afraid all are in a wild goose chase only and > anybody can apply any rule that works for him at all times. But the > question is whether the same rule helps others also who are in such > situations. Perhaps not. For this there may be umpteen reasons and > causes which cannot be defined. But in my opinion, before taking any > chart, Pray to GURUJI, follow GURUJI'S methods fully and He will > come to your help.> > > > GOOD LUCK> > > > K.P.KUPPU GANAPATHI. (Msg#5054, 16-6-2005)> > > > > > > > > > @gro ups.com, "K. P. Naidu" <konathalan@ > > wrote:> > >> > > Dear sri Luther Ji,> > > > > > You are absolutely correctin in high lighting the importance > of Birth Time upto exact second, more so in KP system which is based > on sub and sub sub. In traditional Hindu astrology Birth Time > upto exact second may not be that much important. ofcourse it may be > important in divisional charts D-60 and above.> > > > > > Lot of discussion took place in this group on "Birth Time is > the time of new born's 1st breath" Is the above Birth Time > corrected upto exact second is the time of the native's 1st breath ? > God only knows. Even if some KP astrologer sits in the labor room > with stop watch to record the time of new born's time of 1st breath, > it is a matter of dispute what is 1st breath - 1st cry 1st movement > of hands etc. By the time it is noted it may be 2nd or 3rd or 4th > breath time. who knows except the God.> > > > > > I, therefore, feel that the Birth Time which confirms all the > life events of the native as per existing KP principles, is the > CORRECT AND EXACT BIRTH TIME.> > > > > >  In KPE-zine and Astrovision I found most of the articles on > successful prediction made on natal charts, the Birth Times do not > confirm / satisfy any of the existing RBT theories. Pl note I said > Mostly and not all. Those KP astrologers replied on enquiry, > normally Birth Time is not verified unless doubt expressed by the > native. How many natives know as the importance of exact Birth Time > especially in KP system.> > > The FACT is no body bothers about birth time as long the > prediction comes true> > > I observed in this forum, the discussions MOSTLY on theortical > aspect rather than on practical experience and they safely and > conveniently ignore / hide the practicaly reality.> > > , > > > To avoid all the above problems, MOST of the KP astrologers > are safely and conveniently resorting to HORARY method.> > > > > > Regards.> > > > > > Naidu KP> > > K. P. Naidu,> > > Flat E-1, Prince Aptmts.,> > > Nowroji Road,> > > Maharanipeta,> > > VISAKHAPATNAM 530002.> > > Phone Resi: 0891-2712591.> > > > > > --- On Thu, 7/8/08, Luther Rath rathluther@ wrote:> > > Luther Rath rathluther@> > > Re: Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > @gro ups.com> > > Thursday, 7 August, 2008, 5:45 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In continuation to previous message: - > > > This is only an example. > > > Supposing : -> > > X is born at     8-07 AM       Ascendant    >    Leo 26-42-07 Sun-Sun-Sun> > >  > > > Leo 26-42-07 = Sun-Sun-Sun- Moon sub-sub> > > Because: -> > >            Sun sub begins at Leo  26-40-00> > >            Ascendant falls at       26-42-> 07> > > Who can certify that the birth was exactly at 8-07-00 AM and > not 20 seconds earlier or later? May I bring to notice that watch of > none is rectified to the extent of seconds? When ever some body > mentions time in hour and minute it is always (+) or (-)few seconds. > Hope one and all agree to it.> > >  > > > Ascendant has crossed the arc of 2 minutes allotted to Sun sub-> sub and entered in to Moon sub-sub for 07 seconds of zodiac.> > >  > > > In such a case the birth of X could be at Hr 8-06-57 seconds.> > > This 7 seconds in Moon sub-sub needs 3.333/15*7 = 1.6 or 2 > seconds only. That means 2 seconds earlier than 8-07-00 AM Ascendant > was in Sun sub-sub. A mater of two seconds of time could change the > sub-sub from sun to Moon.> > > That means: -> > > Birth at 8-06-57 Ascendant was at Sun-Sun-Sun- Sun.> > > Birth at 8-07-00 Ascendant was at Sun-Sun-Sun- Moon.> > >  > > > Now one can understand how sensitive is an Ascendant.> > > But the tragedy is the consultant cannot give birth time to be > 8-06-57 A.M. He will only say 8 hours and 7 minutes. And we give > prediction for Moon sub-sub. Does it therefore every one should > rectify birth time to seconds and sub-sub?> > > At present there is so much of controversy to fix the sub of > the ascendant. Discussion continues on Ascendant-Moon relation, > Ascendant-RP relation, Ascendant-IX cusp relation, Ascendant-epoch > relation and may be more. Then what to speak of fixing the sub-sub?> > > There are at least 60 sub-sub zones that pass away with in one > minute; in the zodiac. So during minute wise calculation these are > vulnerable to be missed. So while considering sub-sub of an > Ascendant one must be extremely cautious. The risk is more at the > junctures. > > >  > > > Dr. Luther> > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----> > > Luther Rath rathluther >> > > @gro ups.com> > > Wednesday, August 6, 2008 8:12:41 PM> > > Re: Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sir,> > > The query is not directed to me, although, I wanted to share > my opinion. I may please be excused for the same.> > > Before we try to find out the answers we have to look in to > the division of sign, star and subs.> > >  > > > 7th August 2008> > >  > > > 8-06 Am         Ascendant       Leo 26-27-> 56 Sun-Venus-Kethu> > > 8-07 AM        Ascendant       Leo 26-42-07 > Sun-Sun-Sun> > > 8-08 AM        Ascendant       Leo 26-59-19 > Sun-Sun-Sun> > > Every sign of the zodiac covers 30 degrees. So also does Leo.> > > Every star is allotted with 13-20-00 degrees. So also Uttara > Phalguni, ruled by Sun. But the subs have not been allotted > uniformly but according to the allotment done in Vimshodari system. > So also the sub-sub. > > >  > > > In Uttara Phalguni the arc of different planets are as > follows: -> > > Sun gets an arc of                    > 40.0 Mins> > > Kethu                             >          46.7 Mins> > > Mars                             >          46.7 Mins> > > Moon                              >         66.7 Mins> > > Jupiter                           >        106.7 Mins> > > Mercury                           >     113.3 Mins> > > Rahu                             >        120.0 Mins> > > Saturn                            >       126.7 Mins> > > Venus                            >        133.3 Mins> > > Thus while Sun sub gets only 40 minutes Venus gets 133.3 > minuts. So in Sun sub, the sub-sub lords get smaller zones in > comparison to zones in Venus and of course in all other subs.> > > Division of 40 minutes of Sun sub: -> > > Sun gets an arc of                    > 2.000 Mins> > > Kethu                             >          2.333 Mins> > > Mars                             >           2.333 Mins> > > Moon                              >         3.333 Mins> > > Jupiter                           >          5.333 Mins> > > Mercury                           >       5.667 Mins> > > Rahu                             >          6.000 Mins> > > Saturn                            >         6.333 Mins> > > Venus                            >          6.667 Mins> > > The Ascendant takes approximately 2 hours to traverse a sign.> > > 1 Sign =30 degrees = 1800 minutes in arc of zodiacal zone.> > > 2 hours = 120 minutes in time.> > >  > > > So in 120 minutes of time Lagna covers = 1800 minutes of arc.> > > Therefore in 1 minute it covers             = > 1800/120 = 15 minutes of arc.> > > In other words 15 minutes of arc is covered in 1 minute or 60 > seconds.> > > Therefore 1 minutes of arc is covered in 15*60/60 =15 seconds.> > > Let us examine Sunâ?Ts sub that has smallest zone in zodiac.> > > So the time taken by Ascendant to cross each sub-sub will be > as follows: -> > > Sun     15 secs*2.000 =         30 secs> > > Kethu 15 secs*2.333 =         35 secs> > > Mars   15 secs*2.333 =         35 secs> > > Moon  15 secs*3.333 =         50 secs> > > Jupiter 15 secs*5.333 =         1 min-20 secs> > > Mercury15 sec*5.667 =         1 min-25 secs> > > Rahu   15 secs*6.000 =         1 min-30 secs> > > Saturn 15 secs*6.333 =         1 min-35 secs> > > Venus  15 secs*6.667 =         1 min-40 secs> > >  > > > From the above one can come to a conclusion that if the 1st > child is born in Leo in UttaraPhalguni in the sub of Sun and in sub-> sub of son and the second of the twins takes birth only after 30 > seconds the sub-sub changes to Ketu. If the second is born after 1 > min and 40 seconds the sub-sub changes and may be it bypasses 2 or > three sub-subs. So a difference of 2 minutes in birth time brings a > lot of differences in the twins.> > > Let us then examine sub-sub f Venus that has maximum of arc.> > >  > > > Sun     15 secs*6.667 =         1 min-40 secs> > > Kethu 15 secs*7.778 =         1 min-56 secs> > > Mars   15 secs*7.778 =         1 min-56 secs> > > Moon  15 secs*11.111=        2 min-47 secs> > > Jupiter 15 secs*17.778=        4 min-27 secs> > > Mercury15 sec*18.889=         4 min-43 secs> > > Rahu   15 secs*20.000=        5 min-00 secs> > > Saturn 15 secs*21.111=        5 min-17 secs> > > Venus  15 secs*22.222=        5 min-33 secs> > > In case twins are born at a difference of 2 minutes in Sun, > Kethu or Mars sub-sub the sub-sub of the Ascendant will change. If > birth is 5 min and 33 seconds apart in any sub the sub-sub must > change and there will be difference between the twins in many > aspects.> > >  > > > Transit of Moon also will vary accordingly. This variation > will bring about difference in D/B/A/S/P etc.The transit of Moon > shall not change remarkably as the Ascendant does.> > >  > > > Dr. Luther> > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tranquas tranquas >> > > @gro ups..com> > > Tuesday, August 5, 2008 6:20:01 PM> > > Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Mr. RAO JI and MR. PANDEY JI> > > > > > My strong doubt is moon stays in a star apprx. 24 hrs and in a > sub > > > apprx.2.40 hrs. For this the relative lagna star will be > apprx. 54 > > > mins. sub will be appx. 6 mins and sub/sub is 40 seconds.> > > > > > when moon is in the sub for 2.40hrs and one lagna time of > apprx. 2 > > > hrs the people born on the entire two hrs will get same lagna > sub > > > lord/sub sub lord.> > > > > > SHRI KSK says that even twins born in few mins gap has > different > > > sub/subsub. Even said to take only lagna for prediction since > moon > > > stays long in a star/sub.> > > > > > Kindly seek your valuable advice > > > > > > @gro ups.com, "Punit Pandey" punitp@ > wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Lajmi ji,> > > > > > > > It is addendum to the ascendant-moon connection method. I > believe > > > that> > > >> > > selection of BTR method is astrologer's preference and I don't > > > have any> > > > objection to that. I just wanted to communicate that the > forum is > > > divided on> > > > this topic and not everybody accepts it as a correct method. > I > > > just wanted> > > > to put whole forum's perspective in front of new members..> > > > > > > > Thanks & Regards,> > > > > > > > Punit Pandey> > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Yogesh Rao Lajmi > > > lyrastro1@ ..>wrote:> > > > > > > > > Dear Tranquas & Punit,> > > > > Allow me to refer you to a > > > recent book> > > > > *Progeny & Romance, in the Chapter :*> > > > > *The Prenatal Epoch and Progeny K.P.R.P.,Pp 34 - > 55,examples > > > have been> > > > > given by the author of this article...*> > > > > * ** Perusal of the above will > > > remove all> > > > > myths and prejudices,about Prenatal Epoch in my humble > > > opinion.It has been> > > > >> > > consistently found that the RPs at Birth and the RPs at the > time > > > of> > > > > conception/fertilis ation of the ovum,*> > > > > * * Further to the mehod of > > > BTRT that I> > > > > follow,I do not forget to confirm with > > > RPs...Fortunately, Mr.Raichur' s SW> > > > > gives the RPs of any Chart Horary or Natal along with the > > > planetary and> > > > > cuspal positions up to the sub-sub-sub level...> > > > > The method I use is advocated > > > for> > > > > Birthtimes to be rectified + or - 30 minutes away from the > exact > > > TOB...> > > > > *KSK shared the SECRET.....from > > > Linda> > > > > Goodman's book :*> > > > > "*A woman can conceive only > > > during> > > > > aproximately two hours period,of each Lunar Month,when the > SUN > > > and the MOON> > > > > are exactly the same degrees apart,as they were at the TOB > of > > > the* *Female> > > > > in question*... "> > > > > With best wishes,> > > > >> > > L.Y.Rao.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Punit Pandey punitp@> > > > > @gro ups.com> > > > > Tuesday, 5 August, 2008 10:39:59 AM> > > > > Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > > >> > > > > Dear Tranquas ji,> > > > >> > > > > Just want to point out that the forum is divided on the > accuracy > > > of this> > > > > method. Please check old archive on this topic and the > file > > > section.> > > > >> > > > > Lajmi ji is one of the strong believer of this method and > some > > > other senior> > > > > members don't believe this method.> > > > >> > > > > Thanks & Regards,> > > > >> > > > > Punit Pandey> > > > > Twitter: http://twitter. com/punitastrolo > > > ger<http://twitter. com/punitastrolo ger>> > > > > FriendFeed: http://friendfeed. com/punitastrolo > > > ger<http://friendfeed.. com/punitastrolo ger>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 7:58 AM, tranquas tranquas (AT) (DOT) > > > com<tranquas@ ...>> > > > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > >> Respected seniors,> > > > >>> > > > >> PL.clarify on bitrh time rectification:> > > > >>> > > > >> Shri KSK got a flash when he studied TWINS BIRTH CHART > who born > > > in a> > > > >> few minutes difference with same LAGNA, MOON STAR AND > SUB. But> > > > >>> > > between the twins there is much much difference in all > > > activities.> > > > >>> > > > >> Then only he determined that the LAGNA SUB IS TOTALLY > DIFFERENT > > > AND> > > > >> THIS IS THE DIRECTOR and evolved more.> > > > >>> > > > >> In the forum BTR is explained as to take MOON STAR LORD > AND SUB > > > LORD> > > > >> as lagna sub lord and sub sub lord.> > > > >>> > > > >> If we take for example STAR LORD SUN and sublord SUN, for > a > > > given> > > > >> lagna the period varies from 33 minutes(may 1,1966,lagna > > > tarus,time> > > > >> 8.25to8.58) to 1 hour17min.(august 27,1966 virgo, time > 7.42 to > > > 8.59)> > > > >> (At7.42am, 1.31@lagna-sun/ jupiter to 8.59am, > 20.53@moon/ven, > > > here it> > > > >> is not possible to take sun as lagna sublord since sun > sub is > > > coming> > > > >> at 9.07am only, at that time moon is in sun/moon> > > > >>> > > > >> If we> > > adjust as per BTR the people born or even twins on this > > > moon> > > > >> star/sub will get same lagna sublord even though there is > much > > > time> > > > >> gap.> > > > >>> > > > >> ISN'T CONTRADICTS SHRI KSK> > > > >> pl.advice> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > ------------ --------- ---------> > > > > Get an email ID as yourname@ or yourname@ Click> > > > > > > > here.<http://in.rd. / tagline_dbid_ > 4/*http:/ /in.promos. .c> > > om/address>> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Share files, take polls, and make new friends - all under one > roof. 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Guest guest Posted August 17, 2008 Report Share Posted August 17, 2008 || Om Gurave Namah ||Om SreeMahaGanaadhipataye Namah Hari Om, Dear TW ji. Thanks for highly informative post. Yes sir, Post mortem justification is a way to check rules and tool to learn. A very small percentage of Writings are about predicting.OR either quotes from Classics or explanations.Rest all astrology talks are just justification. Vedic astrology has numerous methods , Dasa and techniques, So It is inevitable that Without a guru what applies where could be a hard nut to crack?. Justification of events In vedic is most probable.Ok Prof KSK appears to claim His system is different but accurate.One need to erect chart using KP ayanamsa, placidious house divison & there is no need to remember thousands rules . Now where is scope of jstification especially when article is from the Pen of PROF KSK himself? Regarding Justificational writings ,Every one will agree The logic involved should be applicable universally of course with exceptions and parameters provided. Under the circuimstances ,It is quite disturbing That PROF KSK gave BT far away then acceptance and justfying life events. By the way Vedic astrologer are not crazy for some solid reasons. They usually follow prasna and Natal together OR yearly chart and couple of methods to- gether.They focus more on Remedy for they have methods to tape the adrdh prabdha, where as KP is seeking highest order of accuracy. In writings Late Sri J bhasin struggled very hard to expalin fall of Smt Indira Gandhi after the event in his book on Dasa Bhukti.That way your point is Right.I have read all your reference except Sl 1,4,5(i) ( k),6(b),7, & 9.Birth time are many for any politicians and celebraties. Reasons are many.There is a Auther in Hindustan times He produces BT and charts for any celebratey, even when Native (person )has admitted His parents did not remember Birth time.This is state of affair! Lastly There can be only one astrological birth time for a Native if Astrology is a science irrespective How much we swear Astrology is a subject worth serious study. with regards, OM TATSAT------------------------Swami_RCS -----------------------" Let us meditate on the glorious effulgence of that Divine Being who hascreated the three worlds.May He Direct our understanding."-- - tw853 Sunday, August 17, 2008 9:03 AM Re: BTR CONFSUSION Dear Swami ji,1. I feel that the Vedic astrologers are not crazy for the BTR. They try to jsutify how Indira Gandhi reached to her peak during Sat-Sat DB as per the TOB 11:11 PM with difficulties by saying Satun's favorable position as per chapter 43 of the BPHS and in the navamsa, Saravali, Bhavar the Ratnakara, D10, atma karaka, and two negatives making positive through so many adverse affects on the 8th etc. Also it is also very dfficult for them to justify the Tagore's death during the DB Jup-Jup, which is lord of lagna and is also exalted in the 9th from Arudha lagna (as per Jaimini), and they opted to justify by taking the starlord of Jupiter, in stead of changing the TOB. 2. The justification by the life events is to convince the rectified TOB is reliable. Mrs. Kousalya Sattainathan also justify the Indra's "50" major events in her "KP's Astrology & Prime Ministers" by using the TOB 23:40:48 IST (Asc Leo 4:11:44). But the historical records are around 11:11 PM as shown below and the Cancer Asc seems more reasonable in comparing with the charts of Tony Blair and George W Bush. 3. There is no wrong or correct TOB but only the rectified, and AA, A, B, C etc according to the clasification of the AstroDatabank.4. The most important thing in astrology is prediction and the post mortem justification to learn and check the rules. Regards,twFrom Msg#6579I--INDIRA GANDHITOBs(1) around 11 PM IST, Biography by (a) Katherine Frank; (b) PranayGupte(2) 11:03 PM IST, Sanjay Rath: Crux of Vedic Astrology, p 49 & 344(3) 11:07 PM IST, PVR Narasimha Rao, "Predicting with Dasamsa",Astrological Magazine, Jan 2003, p 87(4) 11:10 PM ISThttp://www.indianastrology.com/learn/artofprediction4.asp(5) 11:11 PM IST(a) K. N. Rao: Nehru Dinesty,p 106(b) K. N. Rao: Timing Events Through Vimshottari Dasha, p 95© K. N. Rao: Journal of Astrlogy,http://www.journalofastrology.com/archives/Gandhi_Family.htm(d) • SJC, BirthDataBank2.zip Famous Birth ChartsVer 2.0(e) Chandulal S. Patel: Predicting Through Navamsa & NadiAstrology, p 112(f) J. N. Bhasin: Art of Prediction p 256(g) Col A. K. Gour: The Celestial Delivery Boy, Transt, p 50(h) http://www.khaldea.com/charts/indiragandhi.shtml(i) http://astrolreport.com/famous-g/gandhi.indira.htm(j) AstroDatabank, rated A from memory(k) Robert Jansky quotes her private secretary, "41 Ghatis 52 Phalsand 23 Viphas = 11:11:14 PM IST"(6) 11:15 PM(a) Sumeet Chugh: Determing Profession and Ups & Downs in Career,p 94;(b) M.N. Kedar: Judgement of Bhavas & Timing of Eventd through Dasaand Transit, p 10(7) 11:20 PM IST by Hart de Fouw & Robert Svoboda, Light on Life, p365(8) 11:39 PM IST by BV Raman in Astrological Magazine(9) 23:40:48 PM IST by Kousalya Sattainathan: KP's ASTROLOGY & PRIMEMINISTERS, Krishnamurti Publications, p 95 , "swami" <swami wrote:>> > || Om Gurave Namah ||> Om SreeMahaGanaadhipataye Namah> Hari Om,> Dear TW ji > Then how you feel KP explains/ justifies life events (almost Fifteen) as written by Prof KSK himself based on wrong chart.> Is astrology a science of justification?> He did not predict on this chart for want of her permission .> Any views?> OM TATSAT> ------------------------> Swami_RCS > -----------------------> " Let us meditate on the glorious effulgence of that Divine Being who has created the three worlds.May He Direct our understanding."> --------------------------> > - > tw853 > > Friday, August 15, 2008 7:47 AM> Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > Dear Swami ji,> > 1. If so, there is no reason to be crazy for the BTR.> > 2. I had got this BTR of Indira Gandhi. This BTRed time is too far > from the historical records of around 11:11 PM to be accepatable.> > Thanks and regards,> > tw> > , "swami" <swami@> wrote:> >> > > > || Om Gurave Namah ||> > Om SreeMahaGanaadhipataye Namah> > Hari Om,> > Dear TWji,> > Very imprtant question.I was just glancing KP reader vol i.I did > not find a single example of reading a chart where in rectifcation > is undertaken before chart reading.> > Alhough many say Birth time should be rectified first and then > chart should be casted,How many follow it?> > I do not know, but in serious work I certainly do conduct check > but I am no expert in KP method so i use vedic methods.> > Perhaps only writing i know is of chart of Indira gandhi where he > rectified the chart and published article about events in her life.( > ref A & A July 1971)> > He undertook rectification on 3 may 1971 at 13:08 IST at Delhi.> > ( unfortunaetly He did not say how he arrived at rectified Birth > time although He told sign-star sub based on RP and talked of > Prenatal epoch theory)> > He gave chart did not mention rectified Birth time.Just for > interested students,I woked it out .with Ayanamsa 22:37:14 the BT is > 11:39:29PM with ASC Leo 3D42M04S.> > There may be more , but this is what i remember at the moment.> > with regards> > OM TATSAT> > ------------------------> > Swami_RCS > > -----------------------> > " Let us meditate on the glorious effulgence of that Divine Being > who has created the three worlds.May He Direct our understanding."> > -------------------------> -> > > > - > > tw853 > > > > Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:57 PM> > Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > > > > > > Dear All,> > > > In the KP Readers, are there how many practicle examples that > Guruji KSK "first" BTRed and only after that made the chart > analysis?. > > > > Thanks and regards,> > > > tw> > > > > > > > > > Food for Thought> > > > > > Only at the end of his Krishnamurti Padghdhati, KP Reader III or > the original KP Vol. 2, the sole forceful words user Guruji says, "I > shall give some of the methods which are available. How far you can > rely on them, is entirely to you, to the readers andholar and to the > research scholars."> > > > > > Regarding the doubt about correct Time of Birth, it is an > established fact that it is next to impossible to fix a correct time > of birth, the reason being none knows what is the criteria to be > followed to find out the correct time of birth. Even a Doctor who is > also an Astrologer, has said that when he wanted to know the correct > time of birth for his two daughters by making himself present in the > labour room where the delivery took place, he has failed in his > attempt. He says when the head came out of the womb of the Mother a > very low hizzing noise came from the new born Child. At that stage > neither the full body of the child came out nor the umbilical card > was cut. He was doubtful whether the low hizzing noise indicates the > first breath taken by the child etc. and if so that can be taken as > correct time of birth. > > > > -K.P. Kuppu Ganapathi (22-12-2005)> > > > > > > > Before concluding I would like to draw your kind attention to > the writing of Dr.Satyaprakash Choudhary, a copy of which I have > already sent. I have also seen that this write up has been discussed > in the KP Groups, two or three times and tw has already mentioned > about it. From that writing one thing is clear viz., we are yet to > understand and decide the mode of recording the correct time of > birth, i.e., whether it is - i) when the child breaths first (when > this happens, no one knows as clearly pointed out by Dr.Satyaprakash > Choudhary) ii) when the child's head appears from the womb of the > Mother, iii) when the child cries first and iv) when the umbilical > cord is cut and Mother and Child is separated. Under these > conditions I am afraid all are in a wild goose chase only and > anybody can apply any rule that works for him at all times. But the > question is whether the same rule helps others also who are in such > situations. Perhaps not. For this there may be umpteen reasons and > causes which cannot be defined. But in my opinion, before taking any > chart, Pray to GURUJI, follow GURUJI'S methods fully and He will > come to your help.> > > > GOOD LUCK> > > > K.P.KUPPU GANAPATHI. (Msg#5054, 16-6-2005)> > > > > > > > > > , "K. P. Naidu" <konathalan@> > wrote:> > >> > > Dear sri Luther Ji,> > > > > > You are absolutely correctin in high lighting the importance > of Birth Time upto exact second, more so in KP system which is based > on sub and sub sub. In traditional Hindu astrology Birth Time > upto exact second may not be that much important. ofcourse it may be > important in divisional charts D-60 and above.> > > > > > Lot of discussion took place in this group on "Birth Time is > the time of new born's 1st breath" Is the above Birth Time > corrected upto exact second is the time of the native's 1st breath ? > God only knows. Even if some KP astrologer sits in the labor room > with stop watch to record the time of new born's time of 1st breath, > it is a matter of dispute what is 1st breath - 1st cry 1st movement > of hands etc. By the time it is noted it may be 2nd or 3rd or 4th > breath time. who knows except the God.> > > > > > I, therefore, feel that the Birth Time which confirms all the > life events of the native as per existing KP principles, is the > CORRECT AND EXACT BIRTH TIME.> > > > > >  In KPE-zine and Astrovision I found most of the articles on > successful prediction made on natal charts, the Birth Times do not > confirm / satisfy any of the existing RBT theories. Pl note I said > Mostly and not all. Those KP astrologers replied on enquiry, > normally Birth Time is not verified unless doubt expressed by the > native. How many natives know as the importance of exact Birth Time > especially in KP system.> > > The FACT is no body bothers about birth time as long the > prediction comes true> > > I observed in this forum, the discussions MOSTLY on theortical > aspect rather than on practical experience and they safely and > conveniently ignore / hide the practicaly reality.> > > , > > > To avoid all the above problems, MOST of the KP astrologers > are safely and conveniently resorting to HORARY method.> > > > > > Regards.> > > > > > Naidu KP> > > K. P. Naidu,> > > Flat E-1, Prince Aptmts.,> > > Nowroji Road,> > > Maharanipeta,> > > VISAKHAPATNAM 530002.> > > Phone Resi: 0891-2712591.> > > > > > --- On Thu, 7/8/08, Luther Rath rathluther@ wrote:> > > Luther Rath rathluther@> > > Re: Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > > > > Thursday, 7 August, 2008, 5:45 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In continuation to previous message: - > > > This is only an example. > > > Supposing : -> > > X is born at     8-07 AM       Ascendant    >    Leo 26-42-07 Sun-Sun-Sun> > >  > > > Leo 26-42-07 = Sun-Sun-Sun- Moon sub-sub> > > Because: -> > >            Sun sub begins at Leo  26-40-00> > >            Ascendant falls at       26-42-> 07> > > Who can certify that the birth was exactly at 8-07-00 AM and > not 20 seconds earlier or later? May I bring to notice that watch of > none is rectified to the extent of seconds? When ever some body > mentions time in hour and minute it is always (+) or (-)few seconds. > Hope one and all agree to it.> > >  > > > Ascendant has crossed the arc of 2 minutes allotted to Sun sub-> sub and entered in to Moon sub-sub for 07 seconds of zodiac.> > >  > > > In such a case the birth of X could be at Hr 8-06-57 seconds.> > > This 7 seconds in Moon sub-sub needs 3.333/15*7 = 1.6 or 2 > seconds only. That means 2 seconds earlier than 8-07-00 AM Ascendant > was in Sun sub-sub. A mater of two seconds of time could change the > sub-sub from sun to Moon.> > > That means: -> > > Birth at 8-06-57 Ascendant was at Sun-Sun-Sun- Sun.> > > Birth at 8-07-00 Ascendant was at Sun-Sun-Sun- Moon.> > >  > > > Now one can understand how sensitive is an Ascendant.> > > But the tragedy is the consultant cannot give birth time to be > 8-06-57 A.M. He will only say 8 hours and 7 minutes. And we give > prediction for Moon sub-sub. Does it therefore every one should > rectify birth time to seconds and sub-sub?> > > At present there is so much of controversy to fix the sub of > the ascendant. Discussion continues on Ascendant-Moon relation, > Ascendant-RP relation, Ascendant-IX cusp relation, Ascendant-epoch > relation and may be more. Then what to speak of fixing the sub-sub?> > > There are at least 60 sub-sub zones that pass away with in one > minute; in the zodiac. So during minute wise calculation these are > vulnerable to be missed. So while considering sub-sub of an > Ascendant one must be extremely cautious. The risk is more at the > junctures. > > >  > > > Dr. Luther> > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Luther Rath rathluther >> > > @gro ups.com> > > Wednesday, August 6, 2008 8:12:41 PM> > > Re: Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sir,> > > The query is not directed to me, although, I wanted to share > my opinion. I may please be excused for the same.> > > Before we try to find out the answers we have to look in to > the division of sign, star and subs.> > >  > > > 7th August 2008> > >  > > > 8-06 Am         Ascendant       Leo 26-27-> 56 Sun-Venus-Kethu> > > 8-07 AM        Ascendant       Leo 26-42-07 > Sun-Sun-Sun> > > 8-08 AM        Ascendant       Leo 26-59-19 > Sun-Sun-Sun> > > Every sign of the zodiac covers 30 degrees. So also does Leo.> > > Every star is allotted with 13-20-00 degrees. So also Uttara > Phalguni, ruled by Sun. But the subs have not been allotted > uniformly but according to the allotment done in Vimshodari system. > So also the sub-sub. > > >  > > > In Uttara Phalguni the arc of different planets are as > follows: -> > > Sun gets an arc of                    > 40.0 Mins> > > Kethu                             >          46.7 Mins> > > Mars                             >          46.7 Mins> > > Moon                              >         66.7 Mins> > > Jupiter                           >        106.7 Mins> > > Mercury                           >     113.3 Mins> > > Rahu                             >        120.0 Mins> > > Saturn                            >       126.7 Mins> > > Venus                            >        133.3 Mins> > > Thus while Sun sub gets only 40 minutes Venus gets 133.3 > minuts. So in Sun sub, the sub-sub lords get smaller zones in > comparison to zones in Venus and of course in all other subs.> > > Division of 40 minutes of Sun sub: -> > > Sun gets an arc of                    > 2.000 Mins> > > Kethu                             >          2.333 Mins> > > Mars                             >           2.333 Mins> > > Moon                              >         3.333 Mins> > > Jupiter                           >          5.333 Mins> > > Mercury                           >       5.667 Mins> > > Rahu                             >          6.000 Mins> > > Saturn                            >         6.333 Mins> > > Venus                            >          6.667 Mins> > > The Ascendant takes approximately 2 hours to traverse a sign.> > > 1 Sign =30 degrees = 1800 minutes in arc of zodiacal zone.> > > 2 hours = 120 minutes in time.> > >  > > > So in 120 minutes of time Lagna covers = 1800 minutes of arc.> > > Therefore in 1 minute it covers             = > 1800/120 = 15 minutes of arc.> > > In other words 15 minutes of arc is covered in 1 minute or 60 > seconds.> > > Therefore 1 minutes of arc is covered in 15*60/60 =15 seconds.> > > Let us examine Sunâ?Ts sub that has smallest zone in zodiac.> > > So the time taken by Ascendant to cross each sub-sub will be > as follows: -> > > Sun     15 secs*2.000 =         30 secs> > > Kethu 15 secs*2.333 =         35 secs> > > Mars   15 secs*2.333 =         35 secs> > > Moon  15 secs*3.333 =         50 secs> > > Jupiter 15 secs*5.333 =         1 min-20 secs> > > Mercury15 sec*5.667 =         1 min-25 secs> > > Rahu   15 secs*6.000 =         1 min-30 secs> > > Saturn 15 secs*6.333 =         1 min-35 secs> > > Venus  15 secs*6.667 =         1 min-40 secs> > >  > > > From the above one can come to a conclusion that if the 1st > child is born in Leo in UttaraPhalguni in the sub of Sun and in sub-> sub of son and the second of the twins takes birth only after 30 > seconds the sub-sub changes to Ketu. If the second is born after 1 > min and 40 seconds the sub-sub changes and may be it bypasses 2 or > three sub-subs. So a difference of 2 minutes in birth time brings a > lot of differences in the twins.> > > Let us then examine sub-sub f Venus that has maximum of arc.> > >  > > > Sun     15 secs*6.667 =         1 min-40 secs> > > Kethu 15 secs*7.778 =         1 min-56 secs> > > Mars   15 secs*7.778 =         1 min-56 secs> > > Moon  15 secs*11.111=        2 min-47 secs> > > Jupiter 15 secs*17.778=        4 min-27 secs> > > Mercury15 sec*18.889=         4 min-43 secs> > > Rahu   15 secs*20.000=        5 min-00 secs> > > Saturn 15 secs*21.111=        5 min-17 secs> > > Venus  15 secs*22.222=        5 min-33 secs> > > In case twins are born at a difference of 2 minutes in Sun, > Kethu or Mars sub-sub the sub-sub of the Ascendant will change. If > birth is 5 min and 33 seconds apart in any sub the sub-sub must > change and there will be difference between the twins in many > aspects.> > >  > > > Transit of Moon also will vary accordingly. This variation > will bring about difference in D/B/A/S/P etc.The transit of Moon > shall not change remarkably as the Ascendant does.> > >  > > > Dr. Luther> > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tranquas tranquas >> > > @gro ups..com> > > Tuesday, August 5, 2008 6:20:01 PM> > > Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Mr. RAO JI and MR. PANDEY JI> > > > > > My strong doubt is moon stays in a star apprx. 24 hrs and in a > sub > > > apprx.2.40 hrs. For this the relative lagna star will be > apprx. 54 > > > mins. sub will be appx. 6 mins and sub/sub is 40 seconds.> > > > > > when moon is in the sub for 2.40hrs and one lagna time of > apprx. 2 > > > hrs the people born on the entire two hrs will get same lagna > sub > > > lord/sub sub lord.> > > > > > SHRI KSK says that even twins born in few mins gap has > different > > > sub/subsub. Even said to take only lagna for prediction since > moon > > > stays long in a star/sub.> > > > > > Kindly seek your valuable advice > > > > > > @gro ups.com, "Punit Pandey" punitp@ > wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Lajmi ji,> > > > > > > > It is addendum to the ascendant-moon connection method. I > believe > > > that> > > >> > > selection of BTR method is astrologer's preference and I don't > > > have any> > > > objection to that. I just wanted to communicate that the > forum is > > > divided on> > > > this topic and not everybody accepts it as a correct method. > I > > > just wanted> > > > to put whole forum's perspective in front of new members.> > > > > > > > Thanks & Regards,> > > > > > > > Punit Pandey> > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Yogesh Rao Lajmi > > > lyrastro1@ ..>wrote:> > > > > > > > > Dear Tranquas & Punit,> > > > > Allow me to refer you to a > > > recent book> > > > > *Progeny & Romance, in the Chapter :*> > > > > *The Prenatal Epoch and Progeny K.P.R.P.,Pp 34 - > 55,examples > > > have been> > > > > given by the author of this article...*> > > > > * ** Perusal of the above will > > > remove all> > > > > myths and prejudices,about Prenatal Epoch in my humble > > > opinion.It has been> > > > >> > > consistently found that the RPs at Birth and the RPs at the > time > > > of> > > > > conception/fertilis ation of the ovum,*> > > > > * * Further to the mehod of > > > BTRT that I> > > > > follow,I do not forget to confirm with > > > RPs...Fortunately, Mr.Raichur' s SW> > > > > gives the RPs of any Chart Horary or Natal along with the > > > planetary and> > > > > cuspal positions up to the sub-sub-sub level...> > > > > The method I use is advocated > > > for> > > > > Birthtimes to be rectified + or - 30 minutes away from the > exact > > > TOB...> > > > > *KSK shared the SECRET.....from > > > Linda> > > > > Goodman's book :*> > > > > "*A woman can conceive only > > > during> > > > > aproximately two hours period,of each Lunar Month,when the > SUN > > > and the MOON> > > > > are exactly the same degrees apart,as they were at the TOB > of > > > the* *Female> > > > > in question*... "> > > > > With best wishes,> > > > >> > > L.Y.Rao.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Punit Pandey punitp@> > > > > @gro ups.com> > > > > Tuesday, 5 August, 2008 10:39:59 AM> > > > > Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > > >> > > > > Dear Tranquas ji,> > > > >> > > > > Just want to point out that the forum is divided on the > accuracy > > > of this> > > > > method. Please check old archive on this topic and the > file > > > section.> > > > >> > > > > Lajmi ji is one of the strong believer of this method and > some > > > other senior> > > > > members don't believe this method.> > > > >> > > > > Thanks & Regards,> > > > >> > > > > Punit Pandey> > > > > Twitter: http://twitter. com/punitastrolo > > > ger<http://twitter. com/punitastrolo ger>> > > > > FriendFeed: http://friendfeed. com/punitastrolo > > > ger<http://friendfeed. com/punitastrolo ger>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 7:58 AM, tranquas tranquas (AT) (DOT) > > > com<tranquas@ ...>> > > > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > >> Respected seniors,> > > > >>> > > > >> PL.clarify on bitrh time rectification:> > > > >>> > > > >> Shri KSK got a flash when he studied TWINS BIRTH CHART > who born > > > in a> > > > >> few minutes difference with same LAGNA, MOON STAR AND > SUB. But> > > > >>> > > between the twins there is much much difference in all > > > activities.> > > > >>> > > > >> Then only he determined that the LAGNA SUB IS TOTALLY > DIFFERENT > > > AND> > > > >> THIS IS THE DIRECTOR and evolved more.> > > > >>> > > > >> In the forum BTR is explained as to take MOON STAR LORD > AND SUB > > > LORD> > > > >> as lagna sub lord and sub sub lord.> > > > >>> > > > >> If we take for example STAR LORD SUN and sublord SUN, for > a > > > given> > > > >> lagna the period varies from 33 minutes(may 1,1966,lagna > > > tarus,time> > > > >> 8.25to8.58) to 1 hour17min.(august 27,1966 virgo, time > 7.42 to > > > 8.59)> > > > >> (At7.42am, 1.31@lagna-sun/ jupiter to 8.59am, > 20.53@moon/ven, > > > here it> > > > >> is not possible to take sun as lagna sublord since sun > sub is > > > coming> > > > >> at 9.07am only, at that time moon is in sun/moon> > > > >>> > > > >> If we> > > adjust as per BTR the people born or even twins on this > > > moon> > > > >> star/sub will get same lagna sublord even though there is > much > > > time> > > > >> gap.> > > > >>> > > > >> ISN'T CONTRADICTS SHRI KSK> > > > >> pl.advice> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > ------------ --------- ---------> > > > > Get an email ID as yourname@ or yourname@ Click> > > > > > > > here.<http://in.rd. / tagline_dbid_ > 4/*http:/ /in.promos. .c> > > om/address>> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Share files, take polls, and make new friends - all under one > roof. 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Guest guest Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 || Om Gurave Namah ||Om SreeMahaGanaadhipataye Namah Hari Om, Dear Dr Luther, I agree and I believe Prof KSK in 1971 did not have a need to Justify life events OF indira Gandhi.He actually wanted to predict her future.By then HE was already recognized "inventor and exponent of application of SUB theory". Second observation should be seen, that any event can be justified by any birth time, for we have large number of theories and rules.This is why Astrological writing are just justification barring a few that are predictions or related to KP. Traditional astrologers use various combination of methods .They may work out prediction from tested methods but talk or write on any data,,which is possible.Some have authentic Birth data But do not share. No we are not wrong running after BT.If we use KP we need accurate Data.FOR Vedic approximate data could be helpful. Lastly When I started learning Astrology around 1970 Prof KSK left around march 1972 .Prof KSK Did extensive work on rectification by Ruiling planets , is clear from his writings , So I believe He must have been working on correct data rather then supplied data. Sorry I have no proof for my belief.I too never talk to my consultees what their correct BT is unless they bring their astrologer to me, but silently flow with part of working. Please take my views , in the context they are expressed.I have great respect to people who teach and Prof KSK is one of them. I hope I have clarified the point raised. with regards. OM TATSAT------------------------Swami_RCS -----------------------" Let us meditate on the glorious effulgence of that Divine Being who hascreated the three worlds.May He Direct our understanding."-- - Luther Rath Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:15 PM Re: Re: BTR CONFSUSION Dear Sirs, After reading the message one conceives that Late. Mrs. Indira Gandhi was born any time between 11 to 11-40 AM. Inspite of such a long gap the prominent strologers have predicted her life events correctly. Firstly I would like to rule out that the predictions were post-facto and attempt was made to justify the incidents. Secondly, if every atrologer was right though they differed grossly in birth time,then exact birth time is not needed to predict events. Thirdlly, the traditional astrologers examine the charts for planets and cusps from sign to sign, not giving importance to constellations and subs, is that the adventage of predicting correctly in abscence of pin-pointed birth time? Are we wrong running after BTR? Are we going beyond necessity? Swamiji says Prof. Krishnamurty did give examples, quite a number, with out BTR. What does it mean? Did KSK did not feel the necessity of BTR? May I have the clerifications on the above points please? Dr. Luther tw853 <tw853 > Sent: Saturday, August 16, 2008 8:33:22 PM Re: BTR CONFSUSION Dear Swami ji,1. I feel that the Vedic astrologers are not crazy for the BTR. They try to jsutify how Indira Gandhi reached to her peak during Sat-Sat DB as per the TOB 11:11 PM with difficulties by saying Satun's favorable position as per chapter 43 of the BPHS and in the navamsa, Saravali, Bhavar the Ratnakara, D10, atma karaka, and two negatives making positive through so many adverse affects on the 8th etc. Also it is also very dfficult for them to justify the Tagore's death during the DB Jup-Jup, which is lord of lagna and is also exalted in the 9th from Arudha lagna (as per Jaimini), and they opted to justify by taking the starlord of Jupiter, in stead of changing the TOB. 2. The justification by the life events is to convince the rectified TOB is reliable. Mrs. Kousalya Sattainathan also justify the Indra's "50" major events in her "KP's Astrology & Prime Ministers" by using the TOB 23:40:48 IST (Asc Leo 4:11:44). But the historical records are around 11:11 PM as shown below and the Cancer Asc seems more reasonable in comparing with the charts of Tony Blair and George W Bush. 3. There is no wrong or correct TOB but only the rectified, and AA, A, B, C etc according to the clasification of the AstroDatabank.4. The most important thing in astrology is prediction and the post mortem justification to learn and check the rules. Regards,twFrom Msg#6579I--INDIRA GANDHITOBs(1) around 11 PM IST, Biography by (a) Katherine Frank; (b) PranayGupte(2) 11:03 PM IST, Sanjay Rath: Crux of Vedic Astrology, p 49 & 344(3) 11:07 PM IST, PVR Narasimha Rao, "Predicting with Dasamsa",Astrological Magazine, Jan 2003, p 87(4) 11:10 PM ISThttp://www.indianas trology.com/ learn/artofpredi ction4.asp(5) 11:11 PM IST(a) K. N. Rao: Nehru Dinesty,p 106(b) K. N. Rao: Timing Events Through Vimshottari Dasha, p 95© K. N. Rao: Journal of Astrlogy,http://www.journalo fastrology. com/archives/ Gandhi_Family. htm(d) • SJC, BirthDataBank2. zip Famous Birth ChartsVer 2.0(e) Chandulal S. Patel: Predicting Through Navamsa & NadiAstrology, p 112(f) J. N. Bhasin: Art of Prediction p 256(g) Col A. K. Gour: The Celestial Delivery Boy, Transt, p 50(h) http://www.khaldea. com/charts/ indiragandhi. shtml(i) http://astrolreport .com/famous- g/gandhi. indira.htm(j) AstroDatabank, rated A from memory(k) Robert Jansky quotes her private secretary, "41 Ghatis 52 Phalsand 23 Viphas = 11:11:14 PM IST"(6) 11:15 PM(a) Sumeet Chugh: Determing Profession and Ups & Downs in Career,p 94;(b) M.N. Kedar: Judgement of Bhavas & Timing of Eventd through Dasaand Transit, p 10(7) 11:20 PM IST by Hart de Fouw & Robert Svoboda, Light on Life, p365(8) 11:39 PM IST by BV Raman in Astrological Magazine(9) 23:40:48 PM IST by Kousalya Sattainathan: KP's ASTROLOGY & PRIMEMINISTERS, Krishnamurti Publications, p 95@gro ups.com, "swami" <swami wrote:>> > || Om Gurave Namah ||> Om SreeMahaGanaadhipat aye Namah> Hari Om,> Dear TW ji > Then how you feel KP explains/ justifies life events (almost Fifteen) as written by Prof KSK himself based on wrong chart.> Is astrology a science of justification?> He did not predict on this chart for want of her permission .> Any views?> OM TATSAT> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------> Swami_RCS > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------> " Let us meditate on the glorious effulgence of that Divine Being who has created the three worlds.May He Direct our understanding. "> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --> > - > tw853 > @gro ups.com > Friday, August 15, 2008 7:47 AM> Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > Dear Swami ji,> > 1. If so, there is no reason to be crazy for the BTR.> > 2. I had got this BTR of Indira Gandhi. This BTRed time is too far > from the historical records of around 11:11 PM to be accepatable.> > Thanks and regards,> > tw> > @gro ups.com, "swami" <swami@> wrote:> >> > > > || Om Gurave Namah ||> > Om SreeMahaGanaadhipat aye Namah> > Hari Om,> > Dear TWji,> > Very imprtant question.I was just glancing KP reader vol i.I did > not find a single example of reading a chart where in rectifcation > is undertaken before chart reading.> > Alhough many say Birth time should be rectified first and then > chart should be casted,How many follow it?> > I do not know, but in serious work I certainly do conduct check > but I am no expert in KP method so i use vedic methods.> > Perhaps only writing i know is of chart of Indira gandhi where he > rectified the chart and published article about events in her life.( > ref A & A July 1971)> > He undertook rectification on 3 may 1971 at 13:08 IST at Delhi.> > ( unfortunaetly He did not say how he arrived at rectified Birth > time although He told sign-star sub based on RP and talked of > Prenatal epoch theory)> > He gave chart did not mention rectified Birth time.Just for > interested students,I woked it out ..with Ayanamsa 22:37:14 the BT is > 11:39:29PM with ASC Leo 3D42M04S.> > There may be more , but this is what i remember at the moment.> > with regards> > OM TATSAT> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------> > Swami_RCS > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------> > " Let us meditate on the glorious effulgence of that Divine Being > who has created the three worlds.May He Direct our understanding. "> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> -> > > > - > > tw853 > > @gro ups.com > > Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:57 PM> > Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > > > > > > Dear All,> > > > In the KP Readers, are there how many practicle examples that > Guruji KSK "first" BTRed and only after that made the chart > analysis?. > > > > Thanks and regards,> > > > tw> > > > > > > > > > Food for Thought> > > > > > Only at the end of his Krishnamurti Padghdhati, KP Reader III or > the original KP Vol. 2, the sole forceful words user Guruji says, "I > shall give some of the methods which are available. How far you can > rely on them, is entirely to you, to the readers andholar and to the > research scholars."> > > > > > Regarding the doubt about correct Time of Birth, it is an > established fact that it is next to impossible to fix a correct time > of birth, the reason being none knows what is the criteria to be > followed to find out the correct time of birth. Even a Doctor who is > also an Astrologer, has said that when he wanted to know the correct > time of birth for his two daughters by making himself present in the > labour room where the delivery took place, he has failed in his > attempt. He says when the head came out of the womb of the Mother a > very low hizzing noise came from the new born Child. At that stage > neither the full body of the child came out nor the umbilical card > was cut. He was doubtful whether the low hizzing noise indicates the > first breath taken by the child etc. and if so that can be taken as > correct time of birth. > > > > -K.P. Kuppu Ganapathi (22-12-2005)> > > > > > > > Before concluding I would like to draw your kind attention to > the writing of Dr.Satyaprakash Choudhary, a copy of which I have > already sent. I have also seen that this write up has been discussed > in the KP Groups, two or three times and tw has already mentioned > about it. From that writing one thing is clear viz., we are yet to > understand and decide the mode of recording the correct time of > birth, i.e., whether it is - i) when the child breaths first (when > this happens, no one knows as clearly pointed out by Dr.Satyaprakash > Choudhary) ii) when the child's head appears from the womb of the > Mother, iii) when the child cries first and iv) when the umbilical > cord is cut and Mother and Child is separated. Under these > conditions I am afraid all are in a wild goose chase only and > anybody can apply any rule that works for him at all times. But the > question is whether the same rule helps others also who are in such > situations. Perhaps not. For this there may be umpteen reasons and > causes which cannot be defined. But in my opinion, before taking any > chart, Pray to GURUJI, follow GURUJI'S methods fully and He will > come to your help.> > > > GOOD LUCK> > > > K.P.KUPPU GANAPATHI. (Msg#5054, 16-6-2005)> > > > > > > > > > @gro ups.com, "K. P. Naidu" <konathalan@ > > wrote:> > >> > > Dear sri Luther Ji,> > > > > > You are absolutely correctin in high lighting the importance > of Birth Time upto exact second, more so in KP system which is based > on sub and sub sub. In traditional Hindu astrology Birth Time > upto exact second may not be that much important. ofcourse it may be > important in divisional charts D-60 and above.> > > > > > Lot of discussion took place in this group on "Birth Time is > the time of new born's 1st breath" Is the above Birth Time > corrected upto exact second is the time of the native's 1st breath ? > God only knows. Even if some KP astrologer sits in the labor room > with stop watch to record the time of new born's time of 1st breath, > it is a matter of dispute what is 1st breath - 1st cry 1st movement > of hands etc. By the time it is noted it may be 2nd or 3rd or 4th > breath time. who knows except the God.> > > > > > I, therefore, feel that the Birth Time which confirms all the > life events of the native as per existing KP principles, is the > CORRECT AND EXACT BIRTH TIME.> > > > > >  In KPE-zine and Astrovision I found most of the articles on > successful prediction made on natal charts, the Birth Times do not > confirm / satisfy any of the existing RBT theories. Pl note I said > Mostly and not all. Those KP astrologers replied on enquiry, > normally Birth Time is not verified unless doubt expressed by the > native. How many natives know as the importance of exact Birth Time > especially in KP system.> > > The FACT is no body bothers about birth time as long the > prediction comes true> > > I observed in this forum, the discussions MOSTLY on theortical > aspect rather than on practical experience and they safely and > conveniently ignore / hide the practicaly reality.> > > , > > > To avoid all the above problems, MOST of the KP astrologers > are safely and conveniently resorting to HORARY method.> > > > > > Regards.> > > > > > Naidu KP> > > K. P. Naidu,> > > Flat E-1, Prince Aptmts.,> > > Nowroji Road,> > > Maharanipeta,> > > VISAKHAPATNAM 530002.> > > Phone Resi: 0891-2712591.> > > > > > --- On Thu, 7/8/08, Luther Rath rathluther@ wrote:> > > Luther Rath rathluther@> > > Re: Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > @gro ups.com> > > Thursday, 7 August, 2008, 5:45 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In continuation to previous message: - > > > This is only an example. > > > Supposing : -> > > X is born at     8-07 AM       Ascendant    >    Leo 26-42-07 Sun-Sun-Sun> > >  > > > Leo 26-42-07 = Sun-Sun-Sun- Moon sub-sub> > > Because: -> > >            Sun sub begins at Leo  26-40-00> > >            Ascendant falls at       26-42-> 07> > > Who can certify that the birth was exactly at 8-07-00 AM and > not 20 seconds earlier or later? May I bring to notice that watch of > none is rectified to the extent of seconds? When ever some body > mentions time in hour and minute it is always (+) or (-)few seconds. > Hope one and all agree to it.> > >  > > > Ascendant has crossed the arc of 2 minutes allotted to Sun sub-> sub and entered in to Moon sub-sub for 07 seconds of zodiac.> > >  > > > In such a case the birth of X could be at Hr 8-06-57 seconds.> > > This 7 seconds in Moon sub-sub needs 3.333/15*7 = 1.6 or 2 > seconds only. That means 2 seconds earlier than 8-07-00 AM Ascendant > was in Sun sub-sub. A mater of two seconds of time could change the > sub-sub from sun to Moon.> > > That means: -> > > Birth at 8-06-57 Ascendant was at Sun-Sun-Sun- Sun.> > > Birth at 8-07-00 Ascendant was at Sun-Sun-Sun- Moon.> > >  > > > Now one can understand how sensitive is an Ascendant.> > > But the tragedy is the consultant cannot give birth time to be > 8-06-57 A.M. He will only say 8 hours and 7 minutes. And we give > prediction for Moon sub-sub. Does it therefore every one should > rectify birth time to seconds and sub-sub?> > > At present there is so much of controversy to fix the sub of > the ascendant. Discussion continues on Ascendant-Moon relation, > Ascendant-RP relation, Ascendant-IX cusp relation, Ascendant-epoch > relation and may be more. Then what to speak of fixing the sub-sub?> > > There are at least 60 sub-sub zones that pass away with in one > minute; in the zodiac. So during minute wise calculation these are > vulnerable to be missed. So while considering sub-sub of an > Ascendant one must be extremely cautious. The risk is more at the > junctures. > > >  > > > Dr. Luther> > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Luther Rath rathluther >> > > @gro ups.com> > > Wednesday, August 6, 2008 8:12:41 PM> > > Re: Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sir,> > > The query is not directed to me, although, I wanted to share > my opinion. I may please be excused for the same.> > > Before we try to find out the answers we have to look in to > the division of sign, star and subs.> > >  > > > 7th August 2008> > >  > > > 8-06 Am         Ascendant       Leo 26-27-> 56 Sun-Venus-Kethu> > > 8-07 AM        Ascendant       Leo 26-42-07 > Sun-Sun-Sun> > > 8-08 AM        Ascendant       Leo 26-59-19 > Sun-Sun-Sun> > > Every sign of the zodiac covers 30 degrees. So also does Leo.> > > Every star is allotted with 13-20-00 degrees. So also Uttara > Phalguni, ruled by Sun. But the subs have not been allotted > uniformly but according to the allotment done in Vimshodari system. > So also the sub-sub. > > >  > > > In Uttara Phalguni the arc of different planets are as > follows: -> > > Sun gets an arc of                    > 40.0 Mins> > > Kethu                             >          46.7 Mins> > > Mars                             >          46.7 Mins> > > Moon                              >         66.7 Mins> > > Jupiter                           >        106.7 Mins> > > Mercury                           >     113.3 Mins> > > Rahu                             >        120.0 Mins> > > Saturn                            >       126.7 Mins> > > Venus                            >        133.3 Mins> > > Thus while Sun sub gets only 40 minutes Venus gets 133.3 > minuts. So in Sun sub, the sub-sub lords get smaller zones in > comparison to zones in Venus and of course in all other subs.> > > Division of 40 minutes of Sun sub: -> > > Sun gets an arc of                    > 2.000 Mins> > > Kethu                             >          2.333 Mins> > > Mars                             >           2.333 Mins> > > Moon                              >         3.333 Mins> > > Jupiter                           >          5.333 Mins> > > Mercury                           >       5.667 Mins> > > Rahu                             >          6.000 Mins> > > Saturn                            >         6.333 Mins> > > Venus                            >          6.667 Mins> > > The Ascendant takes approximately 2 hours to traverse a sign.> > > 1 Sign =30 degrees = 1800 minutes in arc of zodiacal zone.> > > 2 hours = 120 minutes in time.> > >  > > > So in 120 minutes of time Lagna covers = 1800 minutes of arc.> > > Therefore in 1 minute it covers             = > 1800/120 = 15 minutes of arc.> > > In other words 15 minutes of arc is covered in 1 minute or 60 > seconds.> > > Therefore 1 minutes of arc is covered in 15*60/60 =15 seconds.> > > Let us examine Sunâ?Ts sub that has smallest zone in zodiac.> > > So the time taken by Ascendant to cross each sub-sub will be > as follows: -> > > Sun     15 secs*2.000 =         30 secs> > > Kethu 15 secs*2.333 =         35 secs> > > Mars   15 secs*2.333 =         35 secs> > > Moon  15 secs*3.333 =         50 secs> > > Jupiter 15 secs*5.333 =         1 min-20 secs> > > Mercury15 sec*5.667 =         1 min-25 secs> > > Rahu   15 secs*6.000 =         1 min-30 secs> > > Saturn 15 secs*6.333 =         1 min-35 secs> > > Venus  15 secs*6.667 =         1 min-40 secs> > >  > > > From the above one can come to a conclusion that if the 1st > child is born in Leo in UttaraPhalguni in the sub of Sun and in sub-> sub of son and the second of the twins takes birth only after 30 > seconds the sub-sub changes to Ketu. If the second is born after 1 > min and 40 seconds the sub-sub changes and may be it bypasses 2 or > three sub-subs. So a difference of 2 minutes in birth time brings a > lot of differences in the twins.> > > Let us then examine sub-sub f Venus that has maximum of arc.> > >  > > > Sun     15 secs*6.667 =         1 min-40 secs> > > Kethu 15 secs*7.778 =         1 min-56 secs> > > Mars   15 secs*7.778 =         1 min-56 secs> > > Moon  15 secs*11.111=        2 min-47 secs> > > Jupiter 15 secs*17.778=        4 min-27 secs> > > Mercury15 sec*18.889=         4 min-43 secs> > > Rahu   15 secs*20.000=        5 min-00 secs> > > Saturn 15 secs*21.111=        5 min-17 secs> > > Venus  15 secs*22.222=        5 min-33 secs> > > In case twins are born at a difference of 2 minutes in Sun, > Kethu or Mars sub-sub the sub-sub of the Ascendant will change. If > birth is 5 min and 33 seconds apart in any sub the sub-sub must > change and there will be difference between the twins in many > aspects.> > >  > > > Transit of Moon also will vary accordingly. This variation > will bring about difference in D/B/A/S/P etc.The transit of Moon > shall not change remarkably as the Ascendant does.> > >  > > > Dr. Luther> > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tranquas tranquas >> > > @gro ups..com> > > Tuesday, August 5, 2008 6:20:01 PM> > > Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Mr. RAO JI and MR. PANDEY JI> > > > > > My strong doubt is moon stays in a star apprx. 24 hrs and in a > sub > > > apprx.2.40 hrs. For this the relative lagna star will be > apprx. 54 > > > mins. sub will be appx. 6 mins and sub/sub is 40 seconds.> > > > > > when moon is in the sub for 2.40hrs and one lagna time of > apprx. 2 > > > hrs the people born on the entire two hrs will get same lagna > sub > > > lord/sub sub lord.> > > > > > SHRI KSK says that even twins born in few mins gap has > different > > > sub/subsub. Even said to take only lagna for prediction since > moon > > > stays long in a star/sub.> > > > > > Kindly seek your valuable advice > > > > > > @gro ups.com, "Punit Pandey" punitp@ > wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Lajmi ji,> > > > > > > > It is addendum to the ascendant-moon connection method. I > believe > > > that> > > >> > > selection of BTR method is astrologer's preference and I don't > > > have any> > > > objection to that. I just wanted to communicate that the > forum is > > > divided on> > > > this topic and not everybody accepts it as a correct method. > I > > > just wanted> > > > to put whole forum's perspective in front of new members..> > > > > > > > Thanks & Regards,> > > > > > > > Punit Pandey> > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Yogesh Rao Lajmi > > > lyrastro1@ ..>wrote:> > > > > > > > > Dear Tranquas & Punit,> > > > > Allow me to refer you to a > > > recent book> > > > > *Progeny & Romance, in the Chapter :*> > > > > *The Prenatal Epoch and Progeny K.P.R.P.,Pp 34 - > 55,examples > > > have been> > > > > given by the author of this article...*> > > > > * ** Perusal of the above will > > > remove all> > > > > myths and prejudices,about Prenatal Epoch in my humble > > > opinion.It has been> > > > >> > > consistently found that the RPs at Birth and the RPs at the > time > > > of> > > > > conception/fertilis ation of the ovum,*> > > > > * * Further to the mehod of > > > BTRT that I> > > > > follow,I do not forget to confirm with > > > RPs...Fortunately, Mr.Raichur' s SW> > > > > gives the RPs of any Chart Horary or Natal along with the > > > planetary and> > > > > cuspal positions up to the sub-sub-sub level...> > > > > The method I use is advocated > > > for> > > > > Birthtimes to be rectified + or - 30 minutes away from the > exact > > > TOB...> > > > > *KSK shared the SECRET.....from > > > Linda> > > > > Goodman's book :*> > > > > "*A woman can conceive only > > > during> > > > > aproximately two hours period,of each Lunar Month,when the > SUN > > > and the MOON> > > > > are exactly the same degrees apart,as they were at the TOB > of > > > the* *Female> > > > > in question*... "> > > > > With best wishes,> > > > >> > > L.Y.Rao.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Punit Pandey punitp@> > > > > @gro ups.com> > > > > Tuesday, 5 August, 2008 10:39:59 AM> > > > > Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > > >> > > > > Dear Tranquas ji,> > > > >> > > > > Just want to point out that the forum is divided on the > accuracy > > > of this> > > > > method. Please check old archive on this topic and the > file > > > section.> > > > >> > > > > Lajmi ji is one of the strong believer of this method and > some > > > other senior> > > > > members don't believe this method.> > > > >> > > > > Thanks & Regards,> > > > >> > > > > Punit Pandey> > > > > Twitter: http://twitter. com/punitastrolo > > > ger<http://twitter. com/punitastrolo ger>> > > > > FriendFeed: http://friendfeed. com/punitastrolo > > > ger<http://friendfeed.. com/punitastrolo ger>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 7:58 AM, tranquas tranquas (AT) (DOT) > > > com<tranquas@ ...>> > > > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > >> Respected seniors,> > > > >>> > > > >> PL.clarify on bitrh time rectification:> > > > >>> > > > >> Shri KSK got a flash when he studied TWINS BIRTH CHART > who born > > > in a> > > > >> few minutes difference with same LAGNA, MOON STAR AND > SUB. But> > > > >>> > > between the twins there is much much difference in all > > > activities.> > > > >>> > > > >> Then only he determined that the LAGNA SUB IS TOTALLY > DIFFERENT > > > AND> > > > >> THIS IS THE DIRECTOR and evolved more.> > > > >>> > > > >> In the forum BTR is explained as to take MOON STAR LORD > AND SUB > > > LORD> > > > >> as lagna sub lord and sub sub lord.> > > > >>> > > > >> If we take for example STAR LORD SUN and sublord SUN, for > a > > > given> > > > >> lagna the period varies from 33 minutes(may 1,1966,lagna > > > tarus,time> > > > >> 8.25to8.58) to 1 hour17min.(august 27,1966 virgo, time > 7.42 to > > > 8.59)> > > > >> (At7.42am, 1.31@lagna-sun/ jupiter to 8.59am, > 20.53@moon/ven, > > > here it> > > > >> is not possible to take sun as lagna sublord since sun > sub is > > > coming> > > > >> at 9.07am only, at that time moon is in sun/moon> > > > >>> > > > >> If we> > > adjust as per BTR the people born or even twins on this > > > moon> > > > >> star/sub will get same lagna sublord even though there is > much > > > time> > > > >> gap.> > > > >>> > > > >> ISN'T CONTRADICTS SHRI KSK> > > > >> pl.advice> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > ------------ --------- ---------> > > > > Get an email ID as yourname@ or yourname@ Click> > > > > > > > here.<http://in.rd. / tagline_dbid_ > 4/*http:/ /in.promos. .c> > > om/address>> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Share files, take polls, and make new friends - all under one > roof. 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Guest guest Posted August 18, 2008 Report Share Posted August 18, 2008 Dear Sir, Thank you very much for your message.I presume I got sufficient clerification. I too believe that we need correct birth time when we use KP System. Thank you again. Dr. Luther swami <swami Sent: Monday, August 18, 2008 6:55:28 AMRe: Re: BTR CONFSUSION || Om Gurave Namah ||Om SreeMahaGanaadhipat aye Namah Hari Om, Dear Dr Luther, I agree and I believe Prof KSK in 1971 did not have a need to Justify life events OF indira Gandhi.He actually wanted to predict her future.By then HE was already recognized "inventor and exponent of application of SUB theory". Second observation should be seen, that any event can be justified by any birth time, for we have large number of theories and rules.This is why Astrological writing are just justification barring a few that are predictions or related to KP. Traditional astrologers use various combination of methods .They may work out prediction from tested methods but talk or write on any data,,which is possible.Some have authentic Birth data But do not share. No we are not wrong running after BT..If we use KP we need accurate Data.FOR Vedic approximate data could be helpful. Lastly When I started learning Astrology around 1970 Prof KSK left around march 1972 .Prof KSK Did extensive work on rectification by Ruiling planets , is clear from his writings , So I believe He must have been working on correct data rather then supplied data. Sorry I have no proof for my belief.I too never talk to my consultees what their correct BT is unless they bring their astrologer to me, but silently flow with part of working. Please take my views , in the context they are expressed.I have great respect to people who teach and Prof KSK is one of them. I hope I have clarified the point raised. with regards. OM TATSAT------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Swami_RCS ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------" Let us meditate on the glorious effulgence of that Divine Being who hascreated the three worlds.May He Direct our understanding. "------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -- - Luther Rath @gro ups.com Sunday, August 17, 2008 4:15 PM Re: Re: BTR CONFSUSION Dear Sirs, After reading the message one conceives that Late. Mrs. Indira Gandhi was born any time between 11 to 11-40 AM. Inspite of such a long gap the prominent strologers have predicted her life events correctly. Firstly I would like to rule out that the predictions were post-facto and attempt was made to justify the incidents. Secondly, if every atrologer was right though they differed grossly in birth time,then exact birth time is not needed to predict events. Thirdlly, the traditional astrologers examine the charts for planets and cusps from sign to sign, not giving importance to constellations and subs, is that the adventage of predicting correctly in abscence of pin-pointed birth time? Are we wrong running after BTR? Are we going beyond necessity? Swamiji says Prof. Krishnamurty did give examples, quite a number, with out BTR. What does it mean? Did KSK did not feel the necessity of BTR? May I have the clerifications on the above points please? Dr. Luther tw853 <tw853 >@gro ups.comSaturday, August 16, 2008 8:33:22 PM Re: BTR CONFSUSION Dear Swami ji,1. I feel that the Vedic astrologers are not crazy for the BTR. They try to jsutify how Indira Gandhi reached to her peak during Sat-Sat DB as per the TOB 11:11 PM with difficulties by saying Satun's favorable position as per chapter 43 of the BPHS and in the navamsa, Saravali, Bhavar the Ratnakara, D10, atma karaka, and two negatives making positive through so many adverse affects on the 8th etc. Also it is also very dfficult for them to justify the Tagore's death during the DB Jup-Jup, which is lord of lagna and is also exalted in the 9th from Arudha lagna (as per Jaimini), and they opted to justify by taking the starlord of Jupiter, in stead of changing the TOB. 2. The justification by the life events is to convince the rectified TOB is reliable. Mrs. Kousalya Sattainathan also justify the Indra's "50" major events in her "KP's Astrology & Prime Ministers" by using the TOB 23:40:48 IST (Asc Leo 4:11:44). But the historical records are around 11:11 PM as shown below and the Cancer Asc seems more reasonable in comparing with the charts of Tony Blair and George W Bush. 3. There is no wrong or correct TOB but only the rectified, and AA, A, B, C etc according to the clasification of the AstroDatabank.4. The most important thing in astrology is prediction and the post mortem justification to learn and check the rules. Regards,twFrom Msg#6579I--INDIRA GANDHITOBs(1) around 11 PM IST, Biography by (a) Katherine Frank; (b) PranayGupte(2) 11:03 PM IST, Sanjay Rath: Crux of Vedic Astrology, p 49 & 344(3) 11:07 PM IST, PVR Narasimha Rao, "Predicting with Dasamsa",Astrological Magazine, Jan 2003, p 87(4) 11:10 PM ISThttp://www.indianas trology.com/ learn/artofpredi ction4.asp(5) 11:11 PM IST(a) K. N. Rao: Nehru Dinesty,p 106(b) K. N. Rao: Timing Events Through Vimshottari Dasha, p 95© K. N. Rao: Journal of Astrlogy,http://www.journalo fastrology. com/archives/ Gandhi_Family. htm(d) • SJC, BirthDataBank2. zip Famous Birth ChartsVer 2.0(e) Chandulal S. Patel: Predicting Through Navamsa & NadiAstrology, p 112(f) J. N. Bhasin: Art of Prediction p 256(g) Col A. K. Gour: The Celestial Delivery Boy, Transt, p 50(h) http://www.khaldea. com/charts/ indiragandhi. shtml(i) http://astrolreport .com/famous- g/gandhi. indira.htm(j) AstroDatabank, rated A from memory(k) Robert Jansky quotes her private secretary, "41 Ghatis 52 Phalsand 23 Viphas = 11:11:14 PM IST"(6) 11:15 PM(a) Sumeet Chugh: Determing Profession and Ups & Downs in Career,p 94;(b) M.N. Kedar: Judgement of Bhavas & Timing of Eventd through Dasaand Transit, p 10(7) 11:20 PM IST by Hart de Fouw & Robert Svoboda, Light on Life, p365(8) 11:39 PM IST by BV Raman in Astrological Magazine(9) 23:40:48 PM IST by Kousalya Sattainathan: KP's ASTROLOGY & PRIMEMINISTERS, Krishnamurti Publications, p 95@gro ups.com, "swami" <swami wrote:>> > || Om Gurave Namah ||> Om SreeMahaGanaadhipat aye Namah> Hari Om,> Dear TW ji > Then how you feel KP explains/ justifies life events (almost Fifteen) as written by Prof KSK himself based on wrong chart.> Is astrology a science of justification?> He did not predict on this chart for want of her permission .> Any views?> OM TATSAT> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------> Swami_RCS > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------> " Let us meditate on the glorious effulgence of that Divine Being who has created the three worlds.May He Direct our understanding. "> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --> > - > tw853 > @gro ups.com > Friday, August 15, 2008 7:47 AM> Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > Dear Swami ji,> > 1. If so, there is no reason to be crazy for the BTR.> > 2. I had got this BTR of Indira Gandhi. This BTRed time is too far > from the historical records of around 11:11 PM to be accepatable.> > Thanks and regards,> > tw> > @gro ups.com, "swami" <swami@> wrote:> >> > > > || Om Gurave Namah ||> > Om SreeMahaGanaadhipat aye Namah> > Hari Om,> > Dear TWji,> > Very imprtant question.I was just glancing KP reader vol i.I did > not find a single example of reading a chart where in rectifcation > is undertaken before chart reading.> > Alhough many say Birth time should be rectified first and then > chart should be casted,How many follow it?> > I do not know, but in serious work I certainly do conduct check > but I am no expert in KP method so i use vedic methods.> > Perhaps only writing i know is of chart of Indira gandhi where he > rectified the chart and published article about events in her life.( > ref A & A July 1971)> > He undertook rectification on 3 may 1971 at 13:08 IST at Delhi.> > ( unfortunaetly He did not say how he arrived at rectified Birth > time although He told sign-star sub based on RP and talked of > Prenatal epoch theory)> > He gave chart did not mention rectified Birth time.Just for > interested students,I woked it out ...with Ayanamsa 22:37:14 the BT is > 11:39:29PM with ASC Leo 3D42M04S.> > There may be more , but this is what i remember at the moment.> > with regards> > OM TATSAT> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------> > Swami_RCS > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------> > " Let us meditate on the glorious effulgence of that Divine Being > who has created the three worlds.May He Direct our understanding. "> > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> -> > > > - > > tw853 > > @gro ups.com > > Wednesday, August 13, 2008 8:57 PM> > Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > > > > > > Dear All,> > > > In the KP Readers, are there how many practicle examples that > Guruji KSK "first" BTRed and only after that made the chart > analysis?. > > > > Thanks and regards,> > > > tw> > > > > > > > > > Food for Thought> > > > > > Only at the end of his Krishnamurti Padghdhati, KP Reader III or > the original KP Vol. 2, the sole forceful words user Guruji says, "I > shall give some of the methods which are available. How far you can > rely on them, is entirely to you, to the readers andholar and to the > research scholars."> > > > > > Regarding the doubt about correct Time of Birth, it is an > established fact that it is next to impossible to fix a correct time > of birth, the reason being none knows what is the criteria to be > followed to find out the correct time of birth. Even a Doctor who is > also an Astrologer, has said that when he wanted to know the correct > time of birth for his two daughters by making himself present in the > labour room where the delivery took place, he has failed in his > attempt. He says when the head came out of the womb of the Mother a > very low hizzing noise came from the new born Child. At that stage > neither the full body of the child came out nor the umbilical card > was cut. He was doubtful whether the low hizzing noise indicates the > first breath taken by the child etc. and if so that can be taken as > correct time of birth. > > > > -K.P. Kuppu Ganapathi (22-12-2005)> > > > > > > > Before concluding I would like to draw your kind attention to > the writing of Dr.Satyaprakash Choudhary, a copy of which I have > already sent. I have also seen that this write up has been discussed > in the KP Groups, two or three times and tw has already mentioned > about it. From that writing one thing is clear viz., we are yet to > understand and decide the mode of recording the correct time of > birth, i.e., whether it is - i) when the child breaths first (when > this happens, no one knows as clearly pointed out by Dr.Satyaprakash > Choudhary) ii) when the child's head appears from the womb of the > Mother, iii) when the child cries first and iv) when the umbilical > cord is cut and Mother and Child is separated. Under these > conditions I am afraid all are in a wild goose chase only and > anybody can apply any rule that works for him at all times. But the > question is whether the same rule helps others also who are in such > situations. Perhaps not. For this there may be umpteen reasons and > causes which cannot be defined. But in my opinion, before taking any > chart, Pray to GURUJI, follow GURUJI'S methods fully and He will > come to your help.> > > > GOOD LUCK> > > > K.P.KUPPU GANAPATHI. (Msg#5054, 16-6-2005)> > > > > > > > > > @gro ups.com, "K. P. Naidu" <konathalan@ > > wrote:> > >> > > Dear sri Luther Ji,> > > > > > You are absolutely correctin in high lighting the importance > of Birth Time upto exact second, more so in KP system which is based > on sub and sub sub. In traditional Hindu astrology Birth Time > upto exact second may not be that much important. ofcourse it may be > important in divisional charts D-60 and above.> > > > > > Lot of discussion took place in this group on "Birth Time is > the time of new born's 1st breath" Is the above Birth Time > corrected upto exact second is the time of the native's 1st breath ? > God only knows. Even if some KP astrologer sits in the labor room > with stop watch to record the time of new born's time of 1st breath, > it is a matter of dispute what is 1st breath - 1st cry 1st movement > of hands etc. By the time it is noted it may be 2nd or 3rd or 4th > breath time. who knows except the God.> > > > > > I, therefore, feel that the Birth Time which confirms all the > life events of the native as per existing KP principles, is the > CORRECT AND EXACT BIRTH TIME.> > > > > >  In KPE-zine and Astrovision I found most of the articles on > successful prediction made on natal charts, the Birth Times do not > confirm / satisfy any of the existing RBT theories. Pl note I said > Mostly and not all. Those KP astrologers replied on enquiry, > normally Birth Time is not verified unless doubt expressed by the > native. How many natives know as the importance of exact Birth Time > especially in KP system.> > > The FACT is no body bothers about birth time as long the > prediction comes true> > > I observed in this forum, the discussions MOSTLY on theortical > aspect rather than on practical experience and they safely and > conveniently ignore / hide the practicaly reality.> > > , > > > To avoid all the above problems, MOST of the KP astrologers > are safely and conveniently resorting to HORARY method.> > > > > > Regards.> > > > > > Naidu KP> > > K. P. Naidu,> > > Flat E-1, Prince Aptmts.,> > > Nowroji Road,> > > Maharanipeta,> > > VISAKHAPATNAM 530002.> > > Phone Resi: 0891-2712591.> > > > > > --- On Thu, 7/8/08, Luther Rath rathluther@ wrote:> > > Luther Rath rathluther@> > > Re: Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > @gro ups.com> > > Thursday, 7 August, 2008, 5:45 PM> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In continuation to previous message: - > > > This is only an example. > > > Supposing : -> > > X is born at     8-07 AM       Ascendant    >    Leo 26-42-07 Sun-Sun-Sun> > >  > > > Leo 26-42-07 = Sun-Sun-Sun- Moon sub-sub> > > Because: -> > >            Sun sub begins at Leo  26-40-00> > >            Ascendant falls at       26-42-> 07> > > Who can certify that the birth was exactly at 8-07-00 AM and > not 20 seconds earlier or later? May I bring to notice that watch of > none is rectified to the extent of seconds? When ever some body > mentions time in hour and minute it is always (+) or (-)few seconds. > Hope one and all agree to it.> > >  > > > Ascendant has crossed the arc of 2 minutes allotted to Sun sub-> sub and entered in to Moon sub-sub for 07 seconds of zodiac.> > >  > > > In such a case the birth of X could be at Hr 8-06-57 seconds.> > > This 7 seconds in Moon sub-sub needs 3.333/15*7 = 1.6 or 2 > seconds only. That means 2 seconds earlier than 8-07-00 AM Ascendant > was in Sun sub-sub. A mater of two seconds of time could change the > sub-sub from sun to Moon.> > > That means: -> > > Birth at 8-06-57 Ascendant was at Sun-Sun-Sun- Sun.> > > Birth at 8-07-00 Ascendant was at Sun-Sun-Sun- Moon.> > >  > > > Now one can understand how sensitive is an Ascendant.> > > But the tragedy is the consultant cannot give birth time to be > 8-06-57 A.M. He will only say 8 hours and 7 minutes. And we give > prediction for Moon sub-sub. Does it therefore every one should > rectify birth time to seconds and sub-sub?> > > At present there is so much of controversy to fix the sub of > the ascendant. Discussion continues on Ascendant-Moon relation, > Ascendant-RP relation, Ascendant-IX cusp relation, Ascendant-epoch > relation and may be more. Then what to speak of fixing the sub-sub?> > > There are at least 60 sub-sub zones that pass away with in one > minute; in the zodiac. So during minute wise calculation these are > vulnerable to be missed. So while considering sub-sub of an > Ascendant one must be extremely cautious. The risk is more at the > junctures. > > >  > > > Dr. Luther> > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----> > > Luther Rath rathluther >> > > @gro ups.com> > > Wednesday, August 6, 2008 8:12:41 PM> > > Re: Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sir,> > > The query is not directed to me, although, I wanted to share > my opinion. I may please be excused for the same.> > > Before we try to find out the answers we have to look in to > the division of sign, star and subs.> > >  > > > 7th August 2008> > >  > > > 8-06 Am         Ascendant       Leo 26-27-> 56 Sun-Venus-Kethu> > > 8-07 AM        Ascendant       Leo 26-42-07 > Sun-Sun-Sun> > > 8-08 AM        Ascendant       Leo 26-59-19 > Sun-Sun-Sun> > > Every sign of the zodiac covers 30 degrees. So also does Leo.> > > Every star is allotted with 13-20-00 degrees. So also Uttara > Phalguni, ruled by Sun. But the subs have not been allotted > uniformly but according to the allotment done in Vimshodari system. > So also the sub-sub. > > >  > > > In Uttara Phalguni the arc of different planets are as > follows: -> > > Sun gets an arc of                    > 40.0 Mins> > > Kethu                             >          46.7 Mins> > > Mars                             >          46.7 Mins> > > Moon                              >         66.7 Mins> > > Jupiter                           >        106.7 Mins> > > Mercury                           >     113.3 Mins> > > Rahu                             >        120.0 Mins> > > Saturn                            >       126.7 Mins> > > Venus                            >        133.3 Mins> > > Thus while Sun sub gets only 40 minutes Venus gets 133.3 > minuts. So in Sun sub, the sub-sub lords get smaller zones in > comparison to zones in Venus and of course in all other subs.> > > Division of 40 minutes of Sun sub: -> > > Sun gets an arc of                    > 2.000 Mins> > > Kethu                             >          2.333 Mins> > > Mars                             >           2.333 Mins> > > Moon                              >         3.333 Mins> > > Jupiter                           >          5.333 Mins> > > Mercury                           >       5.667 Mins> > > Rahu                             >          6.000 Mins> > > Saturn                            >         6.333 Mins> > > Venus                            >          6.667 Mins> > > The Ascendant takes approximately 2 hours to traverse a sign.> > > 1 Sign =30 degrees = 1800 minutes in arc of zodiacal zone.> > > 2 hours = 120 minutes in time.> > >  > > > So in 120 minutes of time Lagna covers = 1800 minutes of arc.> > > Therefore in 1 minute it covers             = > 1800/120 = 15 minutes of arc.> > > In other words 15 minutes of arc is covered in 1 minute or 60 > seconds.> > > Therefore 1 minutes of arc is covered in 15*60/60 =15 seconds.> > > Let us examine Sunâ?Ts sub that has smallest zone in zodiac.> > > So the time taken by Ascendant to cross each sub-sub will be > as follows: -> > > Sun     15 secs*2.000 =         30 secs> > > Kethu 15 secs*2.333 =         35 secs> > > Mars   15 secs*2.333 =         35 secs> > > Moon  15 secs*3.333 =         50 secs> > > Jupiter 15 secs*5.333 =         1 min-20 secs> > > Mercury15 sec*5.667 =         1 min-25 secs> > > Rahu   15 secs*6.000 =         1 min-30 secs> > > Saturn 15 secs*6.333 =         1 min-35 secs> > > Venus  15 secs*6.667 =         1 min-40 secs> > >  > > > From the above one can come to a conclusion that if the 1st > child is born in Leo in UttaraPhalguni in the sub of Sun and in sub-> sub of son and the second of the twins takes birth only after 30 > seconds the sub-sub changes to Ketu. If the second is born after 1 > min and 40 seconds the sub-sub changes and may be it bypasses 2 or > three sub-subs. So a difference of 2 minutes in birth time brings a > lot of differences in the twins.> > > Let us then examine sub-sub f Venus that has maximum of arc.> > >  > > > Sun     15 secs*6.667 =         1 min-40 secs> > > Kethu 15 secs*7.778 =         1 min-56 secs> > > Mars   15 secs*7.778 =         1 min-56 secs> > > Moon  15 secs*11.111=        2 min-47 secs> > > Jupiter 15 secs*17.778=        4 min-27 secs> > > Mercury15 sec*18.889=         4 min-43 secs> > > Rahu   15 secs*20.000=        5 min-00 secs> > > Saturn 15 secs*21.111=        5 min-17 secs> > > Venus  15 secs*22.222=        5 min-33 secs> > > In case twins are born at a difference of 2 minutes in Sun, > Kethu or Mars sub-sub the sub-sub of the Ascendant will change. If > birth is 5 min and 33 seconds apart in any sub the sub-sub must > change and there will be difference between the twins in many > aspects.> > >  > > > Transit of Moon also will vary accordingly. This variation > will bring about difference in D/B/A/S/P etc.The transit of Moon > shall not change remarkably as the Ascendant does.> > >  > > > Dr. Luther> > >  > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > tranquas tranquas >> > > @gro ups..com> > > Tuesday, August 5, 2008 6:20:01 PM> > > Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > > > > > > > > > > Thank you Mr. RAO JI and MR. PANDEY JI> > > > > > My strong doubt is moon stays in a star apprx. 24 hrs and in a > sub > > > apprx.2.40 hrs. For this the relative lagna star will be > apprx. 54 > > > mins. sub will be appx. 6 mins and sub/sub is 40 seconds.> > > > > > when moon is in the sub for 2.40hrs and one lagna time of > apprx. 2 > > > hrs the people born on the entire two hrs will get same lagna > sub > > > lord/sub sub lord.> > > > > > SHRI KSK says that even twins born in few mins gap has > different > > > sub/subsub. Even said to take only lagna for prediction since > moon > > > stays long in a star/sub.> > > > > > Kindly seek your valuable advice > > > > > > @gro ups.com, "Punit Pandey" punitp@ > wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Lajmi ji,> > > > > > > > It is addendum to the ascendant-moon connection method. I > believe > > > that> > > >> > > selection of BTR method is astrologer's preference and I don't > > > have any> > > > objection to that. I just wanted to communicate that the > forum is > > > divided on> > > > this topic and not everybody accepts it as a correct method. > I > > > just wanted> > > > to put whole forum's perspective in front of new members...> > > > > > > > Thanks & Regards,> > > > > > > > Punit Pandey> > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 12:15 PM, Yogesh Rao Lajmi > > > lyrastro1@ ..>wrote:> > > > > > > > > Dear Tranquas & Punit,> > > > > Allow me to refer you to a > > > recent book> > > > > *Progeny & Romance, in the Chapter :*> > > > > *The Prenatal Epoch and Progeny K.P.R.P.,Pp 34 - > 55,examples > > > have been> > > > > given by the author of this article...*> > > > > * ** Perusal of the above will > > > remove all> > > > > myths and prejudices,about Prenatal Epoch in my humble > > > opinion.It has been> > > > >> > > consistently found that the RPs at Birth and the RPs at the > time > > > of> > > > > conception/fertilis ation of the ovum,*> > > > > * * Further to the mehod of > > > BTRT that I> > > > > follow,I do not forget to confirm with > > > RPs...Fortunately, Mr.Raichur' s SW> > > > > gives the RPs of any Chart Horary or Natal along with the > > > planetary and> > > > > cuspal positions up to the sub-sub-sub level...> > > > > The method I use is advocated > > > for> > > > > Birthtimes to be rectified + or - 30 minutes away from the > exact > > > TOB...> > > > > *KSK shared the SECRET.....from > > > Linda> > > > > Goodman's book :*> > > > > "*A woman can conceive only > > > during> > > > > aproximately two hours period,of each Lunar Month,when the > SUN > > > and the MOON> > > > > are exactly the same degrees apart,as they were at the TOB > of > > > the* *Female> > > > > in question*... "> > > > > With best wishes,> > > > >> > > L.Y.Rao.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > Punit Pandey punitp@> > > > > @gro ups.com> > > > > Tuesday, 5 August, 2008 10:39:59 AM> > > > > Re: BTR CONFUSION> > > > >> > > > > Dear Tranquas ji,> > > > >> > > > > Just want to point out that the forum is divided on the > accuracy > > > of this> > > > > method. Please check old archive on this topic and the > file > > > section.> > > > >> > > > > Lajmi ji is one of the strong believer of this method and > some > > > other senior> > > > > members don't believe this method.> > > > >> > > > > Thanks & Regards,> > > > >> > > > > Punit Pandey> > > > > Twitter: http://twitter. com/punitastrolo > > > ger<http://twitter. com/punitastrolo ger>> > > > > FriendFeed: http://friendfeed. com/punitastrolo > > > ger<http://friendfeed.. . com/punitastrolo ger>> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > > On Tue, Aug 5, 2008 at 7:58 AM, tranquas tranquas (AT) (DOT) > > > com<tranquas@ ...>> > > > > > wrote:> > > > >> > > > >> Respected seniors,> > > > >>> > > > >> PL.clarify on bitrh time rectification:> > > > >>> > > > >> Shri KSK got a flash when he studied TWINS BIRTH CHART > who born > > > in a> > > > >> few minutes difference with same LAGNA, MOON STAR AND > SUB. But> > > > >>> > > between the twins there is much much difference in all > > > activities.> > > > >>> > > > >> Then only he determined that the LAGNA SUB IS TOTALLY > DIFFERENT > > > AND> > > > >> THIS IS THE DIRECTOR and evolved more.> > > > >>> > > > >> In the forum BTR is explained as to take MOON STAR LORD > AND SUB > > > LORD> > > > >> as lagna sub lord and sub sub lord.> > > > >>> > > > >> If we take for example STAR LORD SUN and sublord SUN, for > a > > > given> > > > >> lagna the period varies from 33 minutes(may 1,1966,lagna > > > tarus,time> > > > >> 8.25to8.58) to 1 hour17min.(august 27,1966 virgo, time > 7.42 to > > > 8.59)> > > > >> (At7.42am, 1.31@lagna-sun/ jupiter to 8.59am, > 20.53@moon/ven, > > > here it> > > > >> is not possible to take sun as lagna sublord since sun > sub is > > > coming> > > > >> at 9.07am only, at that time moon is in sun/moon> > > > >>> > > > >> If we> > > adjust as per BTR the people born or even twins on this > > > moon> > > > >> star/sub will get same lagna sublord even though there is > much > > > time> > > > >> gap.> > > > >>> > > > >> ISN'T CONTRADICTS SHRI KSK> > > > >> pl.advice> > > > >>> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > ------------ --------- ---------> > > > > Get an email ID as yourname@ or yourname@ Click> > > > > > > > here.<http://in.rd. / tagline_dbid_ > 4/*http:/ /in.promos. .c> > > om/address>> > > > >> > > > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Share files, take polls, and make new friends - all under one > roof. 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