Guest guest Posted November 7, 2008 Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 Namaste friends, > Good for him! Spiritual sadhana is far more important, useful, > interesting and pleasant than astrology. A few people wondered why I said like this. I will explain with a metaphor. Life is like a long movie and the material world a movie theater. Many people become overly attached with this movie. When good things happen in the movie, they are excited. When bad things happen in the movie, they are depressed. They are too deeply engrossed in the movie. They don't realize that this is " just a movie " , will end sooner or later and then a new movie will start. The goal of all spiritual sadhana is to realize that this is just a movie and not be overly attached to it. In other words, one should be able to watch it without getting excited when good things happen in the movie and without getting depressed when bad things happen in the movie. Realization that this is just a movie should become common sense and be ingrained in each action, thought and impulse. One should work towards that. That is the essense of all scriptures. Spiritual sadhana of all kinds is aimed at eventually changing one's attitude so that one views all life experiences with an equal mind. Now, it is possible to predict what happens next in the movie, based on what happened so far. Predicting the next scene in the movie is an interesting activity and the art/science behind it is interesting to study, research, learn and experiment with. But, when we say that the final goal is to realize that it is just a movie and being able to accept what happens in the next scene, with neither excitement nor depression, then what use is it to predict what happens in the next scene? From this point of view, spiritual sadhana makes one mature in handling life and attaining everlasting bliss. It enables one to watch the movie without any worries. But, there ARE people who cannot have that attitude, yet. Being able to foretell the next scene is useful to them and prepares them for the next scene. As rishis are compassionate about every being and not just enlightened ones, they taught methods that enable us to do it. So we study them and put them to use. Nevertheless, everyone will eventually have to get used to accepting the movie as is and making the realization that it is just a movie and what happens in it does not matter, as part of one's common sense, thoughts and actions. Once one does that, learning the art/science of predicting the next scene is no longer important, useful or interesting. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org - Narasimha P.V.R. Rao sohamsa ; ; vedic astrology Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:13 PM Re: Jaimini on Chara Karakas --> To Visti and Narasimha Namaste Sri Shanumkha, Obviously you are well-read and had the fortune of learning from a good scholar. I am glad to meet you. Thank you for clarifying about Sri Iranganti Rangacharya's views as you understand them through your association. > 5. What he told me was different from what he explained in his > book... > 4. Regarding the Chara Karaka issue, he works out the way > Narasimha worked out, excepting Rahu becoming Atma Karaka. He has > shown how Rahu can be other Chara Karaka vide his Jaimini Sutramritam > Sanskrit ¡V English Commentary. He has not resolved the case with Rahu > becoming higher longitude planet after deducting from 30 degrees, out > of eight planets. I am glad to know that his approach is similar to mine. You said " excepting Rahu becoming AK " . Later you said he has not resolved the case. Are you saying that he has not made up his mind on whether Rahu can become AK or not? *I* have. > 6. He tells that Rahu can¡¦t become Atma Karaka since Jaimini > himself says that ¡§ Sa Ishte Bandha Mokshayoh¡¨, meaning that AK can > give either Bandhana or Moksha. But, since Rahu is karaka for > Bandhana, he can never be considered for chara atma karaka. I want to > reiterate that he has not shown as how to consider Rahu when he > becomes highest longitude planet. I dispute the notion that Rahu can only give bandhana and not moksha. > But, I can¡¦t pressurize him keeping his age in mind. He, now, > concentrates more on his spiritual sadhana than Astrology. That¡¦s the > precise reason why he gave away all his collection of Jaimini works > to one of his disciples. Good for him! Spiritual sadhana is far more important, useful, interesting and pleasant than astrology. After I started daily homam and intensified my meditation, I too wanted to leave astrology and spend my free time in spiritual sadhana. But my spiritual guru forced me to remain active in astrology and work on interpreting Parasara. I am just carrying out his command. > Taking 8 CK for living beings and 7 CK for > Mundane is not given either in any Jaimini work or Vriddha karika or > in BPHS. Absolutely! When none of the reliable sources mentions this bifurcation, one is valid in questioning this hypothesis. > m. Well, Karaka dasa given by Narasimha, is different in Jaimini > Astrology. It is called AtmaKaraka Dasa and start from the Rasi > occupied by AK and proceeds Kendras, Panapharas and Apoklimas. The > duration calculation is very peculiar, based on the ¡§Satallabhayo ¡K.¡¨ > Sutra. What you described was also mentioned as Karaka kendradi dasa by Parasara. In addition, he also taught the Karaka dasa I gave. Overall, thank you very much for a very interesting email. I have only BPHS and a few modern commentaries on Jaimini in English/Sanskrit/Telugu. I do not have the works of Raghava Bhatta, Nrisimha Suri and Nilakantha. If I had access to their views on Jaimini, I might have been able to do a better job in interpreting the grey areas in Parasara's teachings. Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org sohamsa , " Shanmukha " <teli_sha2002 wrote: > > Om Namah Sivaya > > Namaste Sri Visti, Sri Narasimha and others, > > I have been closely following the discussion on Chara Karakas and the > article by Narasimha. I observed in one of your (Visti¡¦s) earlier > mails, that you referred Sri Iranganti Rangacharya opines that > Jaimini Sutras are complete and nothing is missing. Since, you > referred to Rangacharya. I am interfering as I do have some > interaction with him. Hence, I want to put forth the views of Sri > Rangacharya, regarding the issue as I understood from him. But, I > want to state that I am neither a spokesperson for Sri Rangacharya, > nor a Jyotisha scholar nor a Sanskrit scholar. The following lines > are purely my understanding regarding the issue. > > 1. Though, Sri Rangacharya never indicated that any sutra is > missing from the first two adhyayas, but he always says that 3rd and > 4th adhyayas available now are merely the interpolated versions. > That¡¦s the reason why he didn¡¦t attempt to translate them, even after > being persuaded by Sri B.V.Raman. > 2. He always reiterates that to understand Jaimini Sage, Vriddha > Karikas are the authority. He claims that he always followed the > vriddha karakas and never contradicted or transgressed those slokas > in his commentary. > 3. He considers Jaimini sutras are much earlier to Parasara Hora > since the Sutra Vangmaya is much earlier to Sloka Vangmaya. He > considers Parasara Hora is a compendium of all the astrological > principles available, that is a compilation work. > 4. Regarding the Chara Karaka issue, he works out the way > Narasimha worked out, excepting Rahu becoming Atma Karaka. He has > shown how Rahu can be other Chara Karaka vide his Jaimini Sutramritam > Sanskrit ¡V English Commentary. He has not resolved the case with Rahu > becoming higher longitude planet after deducting from 30 degrees, out > of eight planets. > 5. What he told me was different from what he explained in his > book. But, I can¡¦t pressurize him keeping his age in mind. He, now, > concentrates more on his spiritual sadhana than Astrology. That¡¦s the > precise reason why he gave away all his collection of Jaimini works > to one of his disciples. > 6. He tells that Rahu can¡¦t become Atma Karaka since Jaimini > himself says that ¡§ Sa Ishte Bandha Mokshayoh¡¨, meaning that AK can > give either Bandhana or Moksha. But, since Rahu is karaka for > Bandhana, he can never be considered for chara atma karaka. I want to > reiterate that he has not shown as how to consider Rahu when he > becomes highest longitude planet. > > As I said earlier I am not a spokesperson for him and the above > points can be taken worth of their salt. But, one thing I can > honestly say that Sri Rangacharya is fighting through out his life > for the cause of Jaimini Astrology. In his commentary, we don¡¦t find > pitri karaka after Matri Karaka. According to him, the karakas are > AK,Amk,BK,MK,PK,GK and DK only. But, I admit that Pitri Karaka was > mentioned in one of the manuscript (palm leave) I happened to see. > Again, in the manuscript referred to by Sri Vadrevu Suryanarayana > Murthy, he doesn¡¦t find Pitri Karaka. By the way, I think, he is the > first person to interpret Saturn as karaka for elder brother for the > sutra ¡§Mando Jyayan Graheshu¡¨. Hence, it can be debated > whether ¡§Tasya Pitah¡¨ ever existed. In fact this debate is there for > the ages. Hence, we have to resolve this not only with scientific > approach but also with practical examples. Sri Narasimha was right in > that direction. > > Sri Rangacharya opines that ¡§Eke¡¨ word in ¡§Mata Saha ¡K¡¨ sutra means > that Sage Jaimini does not endorse combining MK and PK. He tells that > interpreting Sutra Vangmaya is different from the case with sloka > Vangmaya. > > Somebody argued that Jaimini didn¡¦t mention the special condition of > including Rahu only when two planets occupy the same degree. Well, if > you look in at the calculation of 8th house given by Sanjay ji is > also not mentioned by Jaimini. That method is deduced from Vriddha > Karika. Hence it should be kept in mind that to understand Jaimini, > Vriddha Karikas are the authority. By the way, how many of us know > that Raghava Bhatta and Nrisimha Suri extensively used calculation of > 8th house according to vriddha karika? How many of us know there are > special ayurdasas called ¡§Jaya Bhava Pamsa, Atmano Bhava Pamsa Dasas > extensively dealt by Raghava Bhatta and Nrisimha Suri ? I request all > to read ¡§Jaimini Sutramritam¡¨ by Sri Rangacharya, since he is the > only commentator who dared to give Vriddha Karika slokas in his > commentary. Why I say Parasara is not the final authority on Jamini > Sutras is the fact that no astrological classic said to be Parasari, > never dealt the concepts like Padas, Rasi Drishti and argala. Of > course, Uttara Kalamrita and brihaspata samhita are exceptions. > Jataka Tatwa by Mahadeva Pathak is very recent scholar and he never > dealt any of Rasi dasas. Yes, BPHS can be taken as one of the vriddha > karika, since Parasara is the only rishi who could compile so > beautifully all the astrological principles available. Hence, HE can > be treated as one of the authority but not the final. Even if we look > at the verses given by Narasimha in his Chara Karaka article look > like merely inspired / interpolated verses from Vriddha Karika. This > is my humble view. The other way is also possible. > > Sorry for deviating from the issue. I write below my humble > understanding regarding chara karaka. > > Jaimini is always specific in his sutras. In fact all sutra vangmaya > is specific and cryptic as well. When he says ¡§Eke¡¨, it means that it > is not his opinion. Taking 8 CK for living beings and 7 CK for > Mundane is not given either in any Jaimini work or Vriddha karika or > in BPHS. > > When Jaimini Speaks ¡§Saptanam AshtanamVa¡¨ > a. If he considers 8 CK then, he would never say ¡§ Saptanam¡¨ > b. He doesn¡¦t endorse the opinion of MK and PK same. So he > treats MK and PK different. Combining above two proves that only 7 CK > and MK, PK different and they are AK, AmK, BK, MK, PK, GK, and DK. > Vriddha Karika is again very specific > c. If he considers only 7 planets, he would never say Asthtanaam > Va¡¨, hence he asks us to consider 8 planets. He didn¡¦t spell out the > condition as when to consider 7 or 8 planets. Now, Vriddha Karika > comes to rescue. Sri Narasimha already gave that sloka in his earlier > mail. > d. Now, out of 7 CK, it is to be decided whether to include Pik > or PK. Since sage himself spaks that MK and PK are different, PK must > be included. > e. If you closely look at the Sutras we don¡¦t find specific > sthira Karaka for Mata and Pita. Hence, one may doubt the inclusion > of MK since no sthira karaka is mentioned. But Sage himself mentions > MK vide sutra ¡§Mata Saha Putra¡K.¡¨. Now, only Pitri Karaka inclusion > in Chara Karaka scheme is doubtful and since it is there in some > manuscripts and not in some, we must resolve it with research, > experiments and sadhana. But, we can understand Venus is Karaka for > Parents vide sutra ¡§ Patni Pitarau ¡K..¡¨. > f. Sage only states 4 sthira karakas > 1. BK ---- " ³ Mars > 2. PK ----- " ³ Jupiter > 3. GK ---- " ³ Mercury > 4. DK ----- " ³ Venus > g. We can get the karaka for Mother and Father as the stronger > of Moon and Mars, and the stronger of Sun and Venus respectively from > other adhyayas. > h. Interpreting 3rd house from Mars etc. is not new to Jaimini > system. Its well known to the commentators like Sri Raghava Bhatta > and Nrisimha Suri and they have even given the karakas for parents, > brothers etc., apart from chara karakas. > i. Now, how to include 8 planets for 7 CK scheme? If two planets > are at the same degree, then Rahu comes in. If three planets are at > the same degree, then one chara karaka will be omitted and will be > filled up by corresponding sthira karaka. > For example > 1. If each planet at different degrees " ³ No Rahu coming in. > 2. If AK and AmK at same degree " ³ No Rahu coming in, > Nasargika Bala considered > 3. If AK, AmK, BK same degree " ³ Rahu comes in and one planet omitted > > Now other than AK > 1. If two Planets " ³ one planet, No karaka > 1. If three planets " ³ two planets, one Karaka omitted > 3. If four planets " ³ three planets, two karakas > 4. If five planets " ³ 4 planets, three karakas > 5. If six planets " ³ 5 planets, 4 karakas > 6. If seven planets " ³ -do- > > The above is found in Rangacharya¡¦s Jaimini Sutramritam and he has > been following it since 30-40 years. I know the above explanation is > not clear and logical but it shows the way vriddha karikas instructed > to do. It shall be born in mind that we must move further keeping and > continually referring to vriddha karikas to understand Jaimini > Sutras. So, whatever Narasimha wrote in his article is not new and > well practiced by Jaimini scholars excepting Rahu becoming AK, and > taking PiK in place of PK in 7 CK scheme. > j. Now, comes how to use karaka lopa. Vriddha Karika shows two > ways of Ommission of Antya Karaka and Agrima Karaka. It must be > researched and applied to know the accuracy of each scheme, not just > debating on it, since it is vriddha showing the beacon of light. I > request all to understand vriddha karka slokas well. Alas, most > English Jaimini commentaries never mention these slokas. > k. Vriddha karika again mentions that Atma Karaka never gets > omitted in Antya karak lopa scheme. That¡¦s the precise reason why you > don¡¦t find sthira karaka for Atma and Amatya karaka. Sri Narasimha > considers Agrima Karaka lopa, if so then, when Ak and Amk are at the > same degree, then AK must be taken over by sthira karaka. But he > doesn¡¦t apply this to AK, where in he takes the DMS again to find the > AK. Here Vriddha karika is very specific that AK cannot be omitted. > So, if Narsimha considers AK can¡¦t be taken over, then he must > consider Antya Karaka Lopa scheme. I am giving below the relevant > Vriddha Karika sloka. > ¡§Amsa Samye Grahau Dwau Chet Jayetam Yasya Janmani > Swa Karakam Vina Lupyati Chantya Karakaha Nischayam¡¨ > > l. So, Sri Rangacharya¡¦s method of taking Naisargika strong > Graha for AK when AK and AmK are at the Same Degree seems logical and > in accordance with Vriddha Karika. > m. Well, Karaka dasa given by Narasimha, is different in Jaimini > Astrology. It is called AtmaKaraka Dasa and start from the Rasi > occupied by AK and proceeds Kendras, Panapharas and Apoklimas. The > duration calculation is very peculiar, based on the ¡§Satallabhayo ¡K.¡¨ > Sutra. > > If anyone gets the feeling that I am saying there shall not be any > independent interpretation of sutras, my answer is NO. I want to say > that whatever the interpretation, it must not contradict the vriddha > karika slokas. Now, new sort of distorting knowledge is happening. > Some learned scholars even wrote article on Lagnamsaka dasa as > phalita dasa. But, Krishna Mishra in his Jyotish Phala Ratanamaala, > mentions Lagnamsaka dasa as Ayur dasa. This is like the other scholar > writing book on Manduka dasa without understanding what Vriddha > karika says about Manduka dasa. New Commentator may contradict with > other ancient commentators like Neelakantha, Raghava Bhatta, but not > with Vriddha Karikas. They are like sritis. As it is said if you have > a doubt and Sriti and Purana differing on the issue, preference must > be given to Sriti only. Similarly if commentator contradicts with > Vriddha Karika, we must follow vriddha only. It is proven time and > again and Narasimha finds the same. Vriddha Karika method of > including Rahu when two planets are at the same degree, works well. > > I have been contemplating to write this mail, but finally I decided > to write, let whatever may happen. I hope I could put my points > straight. Thanks for reading along, and I request readers to study > vriddha karikas, not merely asking to explain every thing under the > sky with chara karakas. Well, I have not touched how to use chara > karakas for interpretation, sincerely; I don¡¦t know how to use. This > is my beginning in understanding CK scheme. > > Let the knowledge come everywhere. > Warm Regards, > Shanmukha. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2008 Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 Hare Rama Krsna ||Dear Narasimha,I think many here, studying Jyotish at an advanced level are not particularly interested in fortune telling or being able to see the 'next scene'. Jyotish is far deeper than this analogy (but I won't go into the philosophy with you:). As has been shown recently, even people who study for a long time fail to accurately predict the future - 'see the next scene'. What is worse, is then they belittle Jyotish, calling it unspiritual, due to their own dissapointment.Respectfully,MichalNarasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvrNarasimha P.V.R. Rao <pvr; sohamsa ; ; vedic astrology Sent: Friday, 7 November, 2008 3:59:09 PM Astrology and spiritual sadhana Namaste friends, > Good for him! Spiritual sadhana is far more important, useful, > interesting and pleasant than astrology. A few people wondered why I said like this. I will explain with a metaphor. Life is like a long movie and the material world a movie theater. Many people become overly attached with this movie. When good things happen in the movie, they are excited. When bad things happen in the movie, they are depressed. They are too deeply engrossed in the movie. They don't realize that this is "just a movie", will end sooner or later and then a new movie will start. The goal of all spiritual sadhana is to realize that this is just a movie and not be overly attached to it. In other words, one should be able to watch it without getting excited when good things happen in the movie and without getting depressed when bad things happen in the movie. Realization that this is just a movie should become common sense and be ingrained in each action, thought and impulse. One should work towards that. That is the essense of all scriptures. Spiritual sadhana of all kinds is aimed at eventually changing one's attitude so that one views all life experiences with an equal mind. Now, it is possible to predict what happens next in the movie, based on what happened so far. Predicting the next scene in the movie is an interesting activity and the art/science behind it is interesting to study, research, learn and experiment with. But, when we say that the final goal is to realize that it is just a movie and being able to accept what happens in the next scene, with neither excitement nor depression, then what use is it to predict what happens in the next scene? From this point of view, spiritual sadhana makes one mature in handling life and attaining everlasting bliss. It enables one to watch the movie without any worries. But, there ARE people who cannot have that attitude, yet. Being able to foretell the next scene is useful to them and prepares them for the next scene. As rishis are compassionate about every being and not just enlightened ones, they taught methods that enable us to do it. So we study them and put them to use. Nevertheless, everyone will eventually have to get used to accepting the movie as is and making the realization that it is just a movie and what happens in it does not matter, as part of one's common sense, thoughts and actions. Once one does that, learning the art/science of predicting the next scene is no longer important, useful or interesting. Best regards,Narasimha------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpanaSpirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdomFree Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.orgSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - Narasimha P.V.R. Rao sohamsa@ .com ; ; vedic astrology Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:13 PM Re: Jaimini on Chara Karakas --> To Visti and Narasimha Namaste Sri Shanumkha, Obviously you are well-read and had the fortune of learning from a good scholar. I am glad to meet you. Thank you for clarifying about Sri Iranganti Rangacharya' s views as you understand them through your association. > 5. What he told me was different from what he explained in his > book... > 4. Regarding the Chara Karaka issue, he works out the way > Narasimha worked out, excepting Rahu becoming Atma Karaka. He has > shown how Rahu can be other Chara Karaka vide his Jaimini Sutramritam > Sanskrit ¡V English Commentary. He has not resolved the case with Rahu > becoming higher longitude planet after deducting from 30 degrees, out > of eight planets. I am glad to know that his approach is similar to mine. You said "excepting Rahu becoming AK". Later you said he has not resolved the case. Are you saying that he has not made up his mind on whether Rahu can become AK or not? *I* have. > 6. He tells that Rahu can¡¦t become Atma Karaka since Jaimini > himself says that ¡§ Sa Ishte Bandha Mokshayoh¡¨, meaning that AK can > give either Bandhana or Moksha. But, since Rahu is karaka for > Bandhana, he can never be considered for chara atma karaka. I want to > reiterate that he has not shown as how to consider Rahu when he > becomes highest longitude planet. I dispute the notion that Rahu can only give bandhana and not moksha. > But, I can¡¦t pressurize him keeping his age in mind. He, now, > concentrates more on his spiritual sadhana than Astrology. That¡¦s the > precise reason why he gave away all his collection of Jaimini works > to one of his disciples. Good for him! Spiritual sadhana is far more important, useful, interesting and pleasant than astrology. After I started daily homam and intensified my meditation, I too wanted to leave astrology and spend my free time in spiritual sadhana. But my spiritual guru forced me to remain active in astrology and work on interpreting Parasara. I am just carrying out his command. > Taking 8 CK for living beings and 7 CK for > Mundane is not given either in any Jaimini work or Vriddha karika or > in BPHS. Absolutely! When none of the reliable sources mentions this bifurcation, one is valid in questioning this hypothesis. > m. Well, Karaka dasa given by Narasimha, is different in Jaimini > Astrology. It is called AtmaKaraka Dasa and start from the Rasi > occupied by AK and proceeds Kendras, Panapharas and Apoklimas. The > duration calculation is very peculiar, based on the ¡§Satallabhayo ¡K.¡¨ > Sutra. What you described was also mentioned as Karaka kendradi dasa by Parasara. In addition, he also taught the Karaka dasa I gave. Overall, thank you very much for a very interesting email. I have only BPHS and a few modern commentaries on Jaimini in English/Sanskrit/ Telugu. I do not have the works of Raghava Bhatta, Nrisimha Suri and Nilakantha. If I had access to their views on Jaimini, I might have been able to do a better job in interpreting the grey areas in Parasara's teachings. Best regards,Narasimha------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- ---------Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpanaSpirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdomFree Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.orgSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- sohamsa@ .com, "Shanmukha" <teli_sha2002@ ...> wrote:>> Om Namah Sivaya> > Namaste Sri Visti, Sri Narasimha and others,> > I have been closely following the discussion on Chara Karakas and the > article by Narasimha. I observed in one of your (Visti¡¦s) earlier > mails, that you referred Sri Iranganti Rangacharya opines that > Jaimini Sutras are complete and nothing is missing. Since, you > referred to Rangacharya. I am interfering as I do have some > interaction with him. Hence, I want to put forth the views of Sri > Rangacharya, regarding the issue as I understood from him. But, I > want to state that I am neither a spokesperson for Sri Rangacharya, > nor a Jyotisha scholar nor a Sanskrit scholar. The following lines > are purely my understanding regarding the issue. > > 1. Though, Sri Rangacharya never indicated that any sutra is > missing from the first two adhyayas, but he always says that 3rd and > 4th adhyayas available now are merely the interpolated versions. > That¡¦s the reason why he didn¡¦t attempt to translate them, even after > being persuaded by Sri B.V.Raman.> 2. He always reiterates that to understand Jaimini Sage, Vriddha > Karikas are the authority. He claims that he always followed the > vriddha karakas and never contradicted or transgressed those slokas > in his commentary.> 3. He considers Jaimini sutras are much earlier to Parasara Hora > since the Sutra Vangmaya is much earlier to Sloka Vangmaya. He > considers Parasara Hora is a compendium of all the astrological > principles available, that is a compilation work.> 4. Regarding the Chara Karaka issue, he works out the way > Narasimha worked out, excepting Rahu becoming Atma Karaka. He has > shown how Rahu can be other Chara Karaka vide his Jaimini Sutramritam > Sanskrit ¡V English Commentary. He has not resolved the case with Rahu > becoming higher longitude planet after deducting from 30 degrees, out > of eight planets. > 5. What he told me was different from what he explained in his > book. But, I can¡¦t pressurize him keeping his age in mind. He, now, > concentrates more on his spiritual sadhana than Astrology. That¡¦s the > precise reason why he gave away all his collection of Jaimini works > to one of his disciples.> 6. He tells that Rahu can¡¦t become Atma Karaka since Jaimini > himself says that ¡§ Sa Ishte Bandha Mokshayoh¡¨, meaning that AK can > give either Bandhana or Moksha. But, since Rahu is karaka for > Bandhana, he can never be considered for chara atma karaka. I want to > reiterate that he has not shown as how to consider Rahu when he > becomes highest longitude planet. > > As I said earlier I am not a spokesperson for him and the above > points can be taken worth of their salt. But, one thing I can > honestly say that Sri Rangacharya is fighting through out his life > for the cause of Jaimini Astrology. In his commentary, we don¡¦t find > pitri karaka after Matri Karaka. According to him, the karakas are > AK,Amk,BK,MK, PK,GK and DK only. But, I admit that Pitri Karaka was > mentioned in one of the manuscript (palm leave) I happened to see. > Again, in the manuscript referred to by Sri Vadrevu Suryanarayana > Murthy, he doesn¡¦t find Pitri Karaka. By the way, I think, he is the > first person to interpret Saturn as karaka for elder brother for the > sutra ¡§Mando Jyayan Graheshu¡¨. Hence, it can be debated > whether ¡§Tasya Pitah¡¨ ever existed. In fact this debate is there for > the ages. Hence, we have to resolve this not only with scientific > approach but also with practical examples. Sri Narasimha was right in > that direction. > > Sri Rangacharya opines that ¡§Eke¡¨ word in ¡§Mata Saha ¡K¡¨ sutra means > that Sage Jaimini does not endorse combining MK and PK. He tells that > interpreting Sutra Vangmaya is different from the case with sloka > Vangmaya.> > Somebody argued that Jaimini didn¡¦t mention the special condition of > including Rahu only when two planets occupy the same degree. Well, if > you look in at the calculation of 8th house given by Sanjay ji is > also not mentioned by Jaimini. That method is deduced from Vriddha > Karika. Hence it should be kept in mind that to understand Jaimini, > Vriddha Karikas are the authority. By the way, how many of us know > that Raghava Bhatta and Nrisimha Suri extensively used calculation of > 8th house according to vriddha karika? How many of us know there are > special ayurdasas called ¡§Jaya Bhava Pamsa, Atmano Bhava Pamsa Dasas > extensively dealt by Raghava Bhatta and Nrisimha Suri ? I request all > to read ¡§Jaimini Sutramritam¡¨ by Sri Rangacharya, since he is the > only commentator who dared to give Vriddha Karika slokas in his > commentary. Why I say Parasara is not the final authority on Jamini > Sutras is the fact that no astrological classic said to be Parasari, > never dealt the concepts like Padas, Rasi Drishti and argala. Of > course, Uttara Kalamrita and brihaspata samhita are exceptions. > Jataka Tatwa by Mahadeva Pathak is very recent scholar and he never > dealt any of Rasi dasas. Yes, BPHS can be taken as one of the vriddha > karika, since Parasara is the only rishi who could compile so > beautifully all the astrological principles available. Hence, HE can > be treated as one of the authority but not the final. Even if we look > at the verses given by Narasimha in his Chara Karaka article look > like merely inspired / interpolated verses from Vriddha Karika. This > is my humble view. The other way is also possible. > > Sorry for deviating from the issue. I write below my humble > understanding regarding chara karaka.> > Jaimini is always specific in his sutras. In fact all sutra vangmaya > is specific and cryptic as well. When he says ¡§Eke¡¨, it means that it > is not his opinion. Taking 8 CK for living beings and 7 CK for > Mundane is not given either in any Jaimini work or Vriddha karika or > in BPHS. > > When Jaimini Speaks ¡§Saptanam AshtanamVa¡¨> a. If he considers 8 CK then, he would never say ¡§ Saptanam¡¨> b. He doesn¡¦t endorse the opinion of MK and PK same. So he > treats MK and PK different. Combining above two proves that only 7 CK > and MK, PK different and they are AK, AmK, BK, MK, PK, GK, and DK. > Vriddha Karika is again very specific > c. If he considers only 7 planets, he would never say Asthtanaam > Va¡¨, hence he asks us to consider 8 planets. He didn¡¦t spell out the > condition as when to consider 7 or 8 planets. Now, Vriddha Karika > comes to rescue. Sri Narasimha already gave that sloka in his earlier > mail. > d. Now, out of 7 CK, it is to be decided whether to include Pik > or PK. Since sage himself spaks that MK and PK are different, PK must > be included. > e. If you closely look at the Sutras we don¡¦t find specific > sthira Karaka for Mata and Pita. Hence, one may doubt the inclusion > of MK since no sthira karaka is mentioned. But Sage himself mentions > MK vide sutra ¡§Mata Saha Putra¡K.¡¨. Now, only Pitri Karaka inclusion > in Chara Karaka scheme is doubtful and since it is there in some > manuscripts and not in some, we must resolve it with research, > experiments and sadhana. But, we can understand Venus is Karaka for > Parents vide sutra ¡§ Patni Pitarau ¡K..¡¨. > f. Sage only states 4 sthira karakas > 1. BK ----„³ Mars> 2. PK -----„³ Jupiter> 3. GK ----„³ Mercury> 4. DK -----„³ Venus> g. We can get the karaka for Mother and Father as the stronger > of Moon and Mars, and the stronger of Sun and Venus respectively from > other adhyayas. > h. Interpreting 3rd house from Mars etc. is not new to Jaimini > system. Its well known to the commentators like Sri Raghava Bhatta > and Nrisimha Suri and they have even given the karakas for parents, > brothers etc., apart from chara karakas.> i. Now, how to include 8 planets for 7 CK scheme? If two planets > are at the same degree, then Rahu comes in. If three planets are at > the same degree, then one chara karaka will be omitted and will be > filled up by corresponding sthira karaka.> For example> 1. If each planet at different degrees „³ No Rahu coming in.> 2. If AK and AmK at same degree „³ No Rahu coming in, > Nasargika Bala considered> 3. If AK, AmK, BK same degree „³ Rahu comes in and one planet omitted> > Now other than AK > 1. If two Planets „³ one planet, No karaka> 1. If three planets „³ two planets, one Karaka omitted> 3. If four planets „³ three planets, two karakas> 4. If five planets „³ 4 planets, three karakas> 5. If six planets „³ 5 planets, 4 karakas> 6. If seven planets „³ -do-> > The above is found in Rangacharya¡¦s Jaimini Sutramritam and he has > been following it since 30-40 years. I know the above explanation is > not clear and logical but it shows the way vriddha karikas instructed > to do. It shall be born in mind that we must move further keeping and > continually referring to vriddha karikas to understand Jaimini > Sutras. So, whatever Narasimha wrote in his article is not new and > well practiced by Jaimini scholars excepting Rahu becoming AK, and > taking PiK in place of PK in 7 CK scheme.> j. Now, comes how to use karaka lopa. Vriddha Karika shows two > ways of Ommission of Antya Karaka and Agrima Karaka. It must be > researched and applied to know the accuracy of each scheme, not just > debating on it, since it is vriddha showing the beacon of light. I > request all to understand vriddha karka slokas well. Alas, most > English Jaimini commentaries never mention these slokas.> k. Vriddha karika again mentions that Atma Karaka never gets > omitted in Antya karak lopa scheme. That¡¦s the precise reason why you > don¡¦t find sthira karaka for Atma and Amatya karaka. Sri Narasimha > considers Agrima Karaka lopa, if so then, when Ak and Amk are at the > same degree, then AK must be taken over by sthira karaka. But he > doesn¡¦t apply this to AK, where in he takes the DMS again to find the > AK. Here Vriddha karika is very specific that AK cannot be omitted. > So, if Narsimha considers AK can¡¦t be taken over, then he must > consider Antya Karaka Lopa scheme. I am giving below the relevant > Vriddha Karika sloka.> ¡§Amsa Samye Grahau Dwau Chet Jayetam Yasya Janmani> Swa Karakam Vina Lupyati Chantya Karakaha Nischayam¡¨> > l. So, Sri Rangacharya¡¦s method of taking Naisargika strong > Graha for AK when AK and AmK are at the Same Degree seems logical and > in accordance with Vriddha Karika.> m. Well, Karaka dasa given by Narasimha, is different in Jaimini > Astrology. It is called AtmaKaraka Dasa and start from the Rasi > occupied by AK and proceeds Kendras, Panapharas and Apoklimas. The > duration calculation is very peculiar, based on the ¡§Satallabhayo ¡K.¡¨ > Sutra.> > If anyone gets the feeling that I am saying there shall not be any > independent interpretation of sutras, my answer is NO. I want to say > that whatever the interpretation, it must not contradict the vriddha > karika slokas. Now, new sort of distorting knowledge is happening. > Some learned scholars even wrote article on Lagnamsaka dasa as > phalita dasa. But, Krishna Mishra in his Jyotish Phala Ratanamaala, > mentions Lagnamsaka dasa as Ayur dasa. This is like the other scholar > writing book on Manduka dasa without understanding what Vriddha > karika says about Manduka dasa. New Commentator may contradict with > other ancient commentators like Neelakantha, Raghava Bhatta, but not > with Vriddha Karikas. They are like sritis. As it is said if you have > a doubt and Sriti and Purana differing on the issue, preference must > be given to Sriti only. Similarly if commentator contradicts with > Vriddha Karika, we must follow vriddha only. It is proven time and > again and Narasimha finds the same. Vriddha Karika method of > including Rahu when two planets are at the same degree, works well. > > I have been contemplating to write this mail, but finally I decided > to write, let whatever may happen. I hope I could put my points > straight. Thanks for reading along, and I request readers to study > vriddha karikas, not merely asking to explain every thing under the > sky with chara karakas. Well, I have not touched how to use chara > karakas for interpretation, sincerely; I don¡¦t know how to use. This > is my beginning in understanding CK scheme.> > Let the knowledge come everywhere.> Warm Regards,> Shanmukha. Stay informed with Xtra News Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2008 Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 Dear Narasimha, I don't know whether this quote by wesley is taken out of context: I'm assuming it is. I admire you greatly and know that your dedication to jyotish as a valid part of one's spiritual sadhana is very high. I have not yet, though I so much wished to, been able to get into the details of your original prediction on the election to see why it went awry. I hope you will explore this issue because we need to keep refining our techniques in order to see clearly and act realistically. Jyotish is called the "Eyes of the Veda". It is so important for all of us that we see through these eyes. Please assist us by exploring the actual results of the election and seeing what jyotish tools will supplement the ones you originally used in order to give us the correct results. Hare Rama Krishna Steve--- On Fri, 11/7/08, wesley <ngjonhoi wrote: wesley <ngjonhoi Re: Astrology and spiritual sadhanasohamsa Date: Friday, November 7, 2008, 7:04 AM > I would just laugh. All that bunch of complicated and fansy Tithi> Pravesh techniques for a TOTALLY wrong prediction, man I knowSanjay> Rath is a bad guy, he who charges me 50 and never gives me the> magazine, and his wife didn't respond to my mail. Robert Koch left> them is a smart move.>> I am glad I left the Jaimini mess, I just stick to the basics, the> parasharas and the western progressions, and progress to transits,> and those are good enough, for 90% of the predictions, I don't need> the JAIMINIS and then go to the wrong track and then get> disillusioned, well I learnt the hard way too.>>> So now I still use astrology sporadingly but I don't rely on thatas> much, is just people are not qualified to be real astrologers inage> of kali, as Srila Prabhupada strong indicated in his books. Andagain> I learnt this the hard way after I got my heart severely broken>> If you don't like what I wrote kick me off the group, but if you do> that you are also a closed minded "scholar.">> wessohamsa@ .com, "Narasimha P.V.R. Rao" <pvr wrote:>> Namaste friends,> > > Good for him! Spiritual sadhana is far more important, useful,> > interesting and pleasant than astrology.> > A few people wondered why I said like this. I will explain with a metaphor.> > Life is like a long movie and the material world a movie theater. Many people become overly attached with this movie. When good things happen in the movie, they are excited. When bad things happen in the movie, they are depressed. They are too deeply engrossed in the movie. They don't realize that this is "just a movie", will end sooner or later and then a new movie will start.> > The goal of all spiritual sadhana is to realize that this is just a movie and not be overly attached to it. In other words, one should be able to watch it without getting excited when good things happen in the movie and without getting depressed when bad things happen in the movie. Realization that this is just a movie should become common sense and be ingrained in each action, thought and impulse. One should work towards that. That is the essense of all scriptures. Spiritual sadhana of all kinds is aimed at eventually changing one's attitude so that one views all life experiences with an equal mind.> > Now, it is possible to predict what happens next in the movie, based on what happened so far. Predicting the next scene in the movie is an interesting activity and the art/science behind it is interesting to study, research, learn and experiment with. But, when we say that the final goal is to realize that it is just a movie and being able to accept what happens in the next scene, with neither excitement nor depression, then what use is it to predict what happens in the next scene?> > From this point of view, spiritual sadhana makes one mature in handling life and attaining everlasting bliss. It enables one to watch the movie without any worries.> > But, there ARE people who cannot have that attitude, yet. Being able to foretell the next scene is useful to them and prepares them for the next scene. As rishis are compassionate about every being and not just enlightened ones, they taught methods that enable us to do it. So we study them and put them to use. Nevertheless, everyone will eventually have to get used to accepting the movie as is and making the realization that it is just a movie and what happens in it does not matter, as part of one's common sense, thoughts and actions. Once one does that, learning the art/science of predicting the next scene is no longer important, useful or interesting.> > Best regards,> Narasimha> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > - > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao > sohamsa@ .com ; ; vedic astrology > Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:13 PM> Re: Jaimini on Chara Karakas --> To Visti and Narasimha> > > Namaste Sri Shanumkha,> > Obviously you are well-read and had the fortune of learning from a good scholar. I am glad to meet you.> > Thank you for clarifying about Sri Iranganti Rangacharya' s views as you understand them through your association.> > > 5. What he told me was different from what he explained in his > > book...> > 4. Regarding the Chara Karaka issue, he works out the way > > Narasimha worked out, excepting Rahu becoming Atma Karaka. He has > > shown how Rahu can be other Chara Karaka vide his Jaimini Sutramritam > > Sanskrit ¡V English Commentary. He has not resolved the case with Rahu > > becoming higher longitude planet after deducting from 30 degrees, out > > of eight planets. > > I am glad to know that his approach is similar to mine. You said "excepting Rahu becoming AK". Later you said he has not resolved the case. Are you saying that he has not made up his mind on whether Rahu can become AK or not? *I* have.> > > 6. He tells that Rahu can¡¦t become Atma Karaka since Jaimini > > himself says that ¡§ Sa Ishte Bandha Mokshayoh¡¨, meaning that AK can > > give either Bandhana or Moksha. But, since Rahu is karaka for > > Bandhana, he can never be considered for chara atma karaka. I want to > > reiterate that he has not shown as how to consider Rahu when he > > becomes highest longitude planet.> > I dispute the notion that Rahu can only give bandhana and not moksha.> > > But, I can¡¦t pressurize him keeping his age in mind. He, now, > > concentrates more on his spiritual sadhana than Astrology. That¡¦s the > > precise reason why he gave away all his collection of Jaimini works > > to one of his disciples.> > Good for him! Spiritual sadhana is far more important, useful, interesting and pleasant than astrology.> > After I started daily homam and intensified my meditation, I too wanted to leave astrology and spend my free time in spiritual sadhana. But my spiritual guru forced me to remain active in astrology and work on interpreting Parasara. I am just carrying out his command.> > > Taking 8 CK for living beings and 7 CK for > > Mundane is not given either in any Jaimini work or Vriddha karika or > > in BPHS.> > Absolutely! When none of the reliable sources mentions this bifurcation, one is valid in questioning this hypothesis.> > > m. Well, Karaka dasa given by Narasimha, is different in Jaimini > > Astrology. It is called AtmaKaraka Dasa and start from the Rasi > > occupied by AK and proceeds Kendras, Panapharas and Apoklimas. The > > duration calculation is very peculiar, based on the ¡§Satallabhayo ¡K.¡¨ > > Sutra.> > What you described was also mentioned as Karaka kendradi dasa by Parasara. In addition, he also taught the Karaka dasa I gave.> > Overall, thank you very much for a very interesting email.> > I have only BPHS and a few modern commentaries on Jaimini in English/Sanskrit/ Telugu. I do not have the works of Raghava Bhatta, Nrisimha Suri and Nilakantha. If I had access to their views on Jaimini, I might have been able to do a better job in interpreting the grey areas in Parasara's teachings.> > Best regards,> Narasimha> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana> Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org> ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- -> > sohamsa@ .com, "Shanmukha" <teli_sha2002@ > wrote:> >> > Om Namah Sivaya> > > > Namaste Sri Visti, Sri Narasimha and others,> > > > I have been closely following the discussion on Chara Karakas and the > > article by Narasimha. I observed in one of your (Visti¡¦s) earlier > > mails, that you referred Sri Iranganti Rangacharya opines that > > Jaimini Sutras are complete and nothing is missing. Since, you > > referred to Rangacharya. I am interfering as I do have some > > interaction with him. Hence, I want to put forth the views of Sri > > Rangacharya, regarding the issue as I understood from him. But, I > > want to state that I am neither a spokesperson for Sri Rangacharya, > > nor a Jyotisha scholar nor a Sanskrit scholar. The following lines > > are purely my understanding regarding the issue. > > > > 1. Though, Sri Rangacharya never indicated that any sutra is > > missing from the first two adhyayas, but he always says that 3rd and > > 4th adhyayas available now are merely the interpolated versions. > > That¡¦s the reason why he didn¡¦t attempt to translate them, even after > > being persuaded by Sri B.V.Raman.> > 2. He always reiterates that to understand Jaimini Sage, Vriddha > > Karikas are the authority. He claims that he always followed the > > vriddha karakas and never contradicted or transgressed those slokas > > in his commentary.> > 3. He considers Jaimini sutras are much earlier to Parasara Hora > > since the Sutra Vangmaya is much earlier to Sloka Vangmaya. He > > considers Parasara Hora is a compendium of all the astrological > > principles available, that is a compilation work.> > 4. Regarding the Chara Karaka issue, he works out the way > > Narasimha worked out, excepting Rahu becoming Atma Karaka. He has > > shown how Rahu can be other Chara Karaka vide his Jaimini Sutramritam > > Sanskrit ¡V English Commentary. He has not resolved the case with Rahu > > becoming higher longitude planet after deducting from 30 degrees, out > > of eight planets. > > 5. What he told me was different from what he explained in his > > book. But, I can¡¦t pressurize him keeping his age in mind. He, now, > > concentrates more on his spiritual sadhana than Astrology. That¡¦s the > > precise reason why he gave away all his collection of Jaimini works > > to one of his disciples.> > 6. He tells that Rahu can¡¦t become Atma Karaka since Jaimini > > himself says that ¡§ Sa Ishte Bandha Mokshayoh¡¨, meaning that AK can > > give either Bandhana or Moksha. But, since Rahu is karaka for > > Bandhana, he can never be considered for chara atma karaka. I want to > > reiterate that he has not shown as how to consider Rahu when he > > becomes highest longitude planet. > > > > As I said earlier I am not a spokesperson for him and the above > > points can be taken worth of their salt. But, one thing I can > > honestly say that Sri Rangacharya is fighting through out his life > > for the cause of Jaimini Astrology. In his commentary, we don¡¦t find > > pitri karaka after Matri Karaka. According to him, the karakas are > > AK,Amk,BK,MK, PK,GK and DK only. But, I admit that Pitri Karaka was > > mentioned in one of the manuscript (palm leave) I happened to see. > > Again, in the manuscript referred to by Sri Vadrevu Suryanarayana > > Murthy, he doesn¡¦t find Pitri Karaka. By the way, I think, he is the > > first person to interpret Saturn as karaka for elder brother for the > > sutra ¡§Mando Jyayan Graheshu¡¨. Hence, it can be debated > > whether ¡§Tasya Pitah¡¨ ever existed. In fact this debate is there for > > the ages. Hence, we have to resolve this not only with scientific > > approach but also with practical examples. Sri Narasimha was right in > > that direction. > > > > Sri Rangacharya opines that ¡§Eke¡¨ word in ¡§Mata Saha ¡K¡¨ sutra means > > that Sage Jaimini does not endorse combining MK and PK. He tells that > > interpreting Sutra Vangmaya is different from the case with sloka > > Vangmaya.> > > > Somebody argued that Jaimini didn¡¦t mention the special condition of > > including Rahu only when two planets occupy the same degree. Well, if > > you look in at the calculation of 8th house given by Sanjay ji is > > also not mentioned by Jaimini. That method is deduced from Vriddha > > Karika. Hence it should be kept in mind that to understand Jaimini, > > Vriddha Karikas are the authority. By the way, how many of us know > > that Raghava Bhatta and Nrisimha Suri extensively used calculation of > > 8th house according to vriddha karika? How many of us know there are > > special ayurdasas called ¡§Jaya Bhava Pamsa, Atmano Bhava Pamsa Dasas > > extensively dealt by Raghava Bhatta and Nrisimha Suri ? I request all > > to read ¡§Jaimini Sutramritam¡¨ by Sri Rangacharya, since he is the > > only commentator who dared to give Vriddha Karika slokas in his > > commentary. Why I say Parasara is not the final authority on Jamini > > Sutras is the fact that no astrological classic said to be Parasari, > > never dealt the concepts like Padas, Rasi Drishti and argala. Of > > course, Uttara Kalamrita and brihaspata samhita are exceptions. > > Jataka Tatwa by Mahadeva Pathak is very recent scholar and he never > > dealt any of Rasi dasas. Yes, BPHS can be taken as one of the vriddha > > karika, since Parasara is the only rishi who could compile so > > beautifully all the astrological principles available. Hence, HE can > > be treated as one of the authority but not the final. Even if we look > > at the verses given by Narasimha in his Chara Karaka article look > > like merely inspired / interpolated verses from Vriddha Karika. This > > is my humble view. The other way is also possible. > > > > Sorry for deviating from the issue. I write below my humble > > understanding regarding chara karaka.> > > > Jaimini is always specific in his sutras. In fact all sutra vangmaya > > is specific and cryptic as well. When he says ¡§Eke¡¨, it means that it > > is not his opinion. Taking 8 CK for living beings and 7 CK for > > Mundane is not given either in any Jaimini work or Vriddha karika or > > in BPHS. > > > > When Jaimini Speaks ¡§Saptanam AshtanamVa¡¨> > a. If he considers 8 CK then, he would never say ¡§ Saptanam¡¨> > b. He doesn¡¦t endorse the opinion of MK and PK same. So he > > treats MK and PK different. Combining above two proves that only 7 CK > > and MK, PK different and they are AK, AmK, BK, MK, PK, GK, and DK. > > Vriddha Karika is again very specific > > c. If he considers only 7 planets, he would never say Asthtanaam > > Va¡¨, hence he asks us to consider 8 planets. He didn¡¦t spell out the > > condition as when to consider 7 or 8 planets. Now, Vriddha Karika > > comes to rescue. Sri Narasimha already gave that sloka in his earlier > > mail. > > d. Now, out of 7 CK, it is to be decided whether to include Pik > > or PK. Since sage himself spaks that MK and PK are different, PK must > > be included. > > e. If you closely look at the Sutras we don¡¦t find specific > > sthira Karaka for Mata and Pita. Hence, one may doubt the inclusion > > of MK since no sthira karaka is mentioned. But Sage himself mentions > > MK vide sutra ¡§Mata Saha Putra¡K.¡¨. Now, only Pitri Karaka inclusion > > in Chara Karaka scheme is doubtful and since it is there in some > > manuscripts and not in some, we must resolve it with research, > > experiments and sadhana. But, we can understand Venus is Karaka for > > Parents vide sutra ¡§ Patni Pitarau ¡K..¡¨. > > f. Sage only states 4 sthira karakas > > 1. BK ----"³ Mars> > 2. PK -----"³ Jupiter> > 3. GK ----"³ Mercury> > 4. DK -----"³ Venus> > g. We can get the karaka for Mother and Father as the stronger > > of Moon and Mars, and the stronger of Sun and Venus respectively from > > other adhyayas. > > h. Interpreting 3rd house from Mars etc. is not new to Jaimini > > system. Its well known to the commentators like Sri Raghava Bhatta > > and Nrisimha Suri and they have even given the karakas for parents, > > brothers etc., apart from chara karakas.> > i. Now, how to include 8 planets for 7 CK scheme? If two planets > > are at the same degree, then Rahu comes in. If three planets are at > > the same degree, then one chara karaka will be omitted and will be > > filled up by corresponding sthira karaka.> > For example> > 1. If each planet at different degrees "³ No Rahu coming in.> > 2. If AK and AmK at same degree "³ No Rahu coming in, > > Nasargika Bala considered> > 3. If AK, AmK, BK same degree "³ Rahu comes in and one planet omitted> > > > Now other than AK > > 1. If two Planets "³ one planet, No karaka> > 1. If three planets "³ two planets, one Karaka omitted> > 3. If four planets "³ three planets, two karakas> > 4. If five planets "³ 4 planets, three karakas> > 5. If six planets "³ 5 planets, 4 karakas> > 6. If seven planets "³ -do-> > > > The above is found in Rangacharya¡¦s Jaimini Sutramritam and he has > > been following it since 30-40 years. I know the above explanation is > > not clear and logical but it shows the way vriddha karikas instructed > > to do. It shall be born in mind that we must move further keeping and > > continually referring to vriddha karikas to understand Jaimini > > Sutras. So, whatever Narasimha wrote in his article is not new and > > well practiced by Jaimini scholars excepting Rahu becoming AK, and > > taking PiK in place of PK in 7 CK scheme.> > j. Now, comes how to use karaka lopa. Vriddha Karika shows two > > ways of Ommission of Antya Karaka and Agrima Karaka. It must be > > researched and applied to know the accuracy of each scheme, not just > > debating on it, since it is vriddha showing the beacon of light. I > > request all to understand vriddha karka slokas well. Alas, most > > English Jaimini commentaries never mention these slokas.> > k. Vriddha karika again mentions that Atma Karaka never gets > > omitted in Antya karak lopa scheme. That¡¦s the precise reason why you > > don¡¦t find sthira karaka for Atma and Amatya karaka. Sri Narasimha > > considers Agrima Karaka lopa, if so then, when Ak and Amk are at the > > same degree, then AK must be taken over by sthira karaka. But he > > doesn¡¦t apply this to AK, where in he takes the DMS again to find the > > AK. Here Vriddha karika is very specific that AK cannot be omitted. > > So, if Narsimha considers AK can¡¦t be taken over, then he must > > consider Antya Karaka Lopa scheme. I am giving below the relevant > > Vriddha Karika sloka.> > ¡§Amsa Samye Grahau Dwau Chet Jayetam Yasya Janmani> > Swa Karakam Vina Lupyati Chantya Karakaha Nischayam¡¨> > > > l. So, Sri Rangacharya¡¦s method of taking Naisargika strong > > Graha for AK when AK and AmK are at the Same Degree seems logical and > > in accordance with Vriddha Karika.> > m. Well, Karaka dasa given by Narasimha, is different in Jaimini > > Astrology. It is called AtmaKaraka Dasa and start from the Rasi > > occupied by AK and proceeds Kendras, Panapharas and Apoklimas. The > > duration calculation is very peculiar, based on the ¡§Satallabhayo ¡K.¡¨ > > Sutra.> > > > If anyone gets the feeling that I am saying there shall not be any > > independent interpretation of sutras, my answer is NO. I want to say > > that whatever the interpretation, it must not contradict the vriddha > > karika slokas. Now, new sort of distorting knowledge is happening. > > Some learned scholars even wrote article on Lagnamsaka dasa as > > phalita dasa. But, Krishna Mishra in his Jyotish Phala Ratanamaala, > > mentions Lagnamsaka dasa as Ayur dasa. This is like the other scholar > > writing book on Manduka dasa without understanding what Vriddha > > karika says about Manduka dasa. New Commentator may contradict with > > other ancient commentators like Neelakantha, Raghava Bhatta, but not > > with Vriddha Karikas. They are like sritis. As it is said if you have > > a doubt and Sriti and Purana differing on the issue, preference must > > be given to Sriti only. Similarly if commentator contradicts with > > Vriddha Karika, we must follow vriddha only. It is proven time and > > again and Narasimha finds the same. Vriddha Karika method of > > including Rahu when two planets are at the same degree, works well. > > > > I have been contemplating to write this mail, but finally I decided > > to write, let whatever may happen. I hope I could put my points > > straight. Thanks for reading along, and I request readers to study > > vriddha karikas, not merely asking to explain every thing under the > > sky with chara karakas. Well, I have not touched how to use chara > > karakas for interpretation, sincerely; I don¡¦t know how to use. This > > is my beginning in understanding CK scheme.> > > > Let the knowledge come everywhere.> > Warm Regards,> > Shanmukha.> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 7, 2008 Report Share Posted November 7, 2008 I only see cover ups sohamsa , " Stephen K. Sufian " <veda108 wrote: > > Dear Narasimha, > I don't know whether this quote by wesley is taken out of context: I'm assuming it is. I admire you greatly and know that your dedication to jyotish as a valid part of one's spiritual sadhana is very high. I have not yet, though I so much wished to, been able to get into the details of your original prediction on the election to see why it went awry. I hope you will explore this issue because we need to keep refining our techniques in order to see clearly and act realistically. Jyotish is called the " Eyes of the Veda " . It is so important for all of us that we see through these eyes. Please assist us by exploring the actual results of the election and seeing what jyotish tools will supplement the ones you originally used in order to give us the correct results. > Hare Rama Krishna > Steve > > --- On Fri, 11/7/08, wesley <ngjonhoi wrote: > > wesley <ngjonhoi > Re: Astrology and spiritual sadhana > sohamsa > Friday, November 7, 2008, 7:04 AM > I would just laugh. All that bunch of complicated and fansy Tithi > > Pravesh techniques for a TOTALLY wrong prediction, man I know > Sanjay > > Rath is a bad guy, he who charges me 50 and never gives me the > > magazine, and his wife didn't respond to my mail. Robert Koch left > > them is a smart move. > > > > I am glad I left the Jaimini mess, I just stick to the basics, the > > parasharas and the western progressions, and progress to transits, > > and those are good enough, for 90% of the predictions, I don't need > > the JAIMINIS and then go to the wrong track and then get > > disillusioned, well I learnt the hard way too. > > > > > > So now I still use astrology sporadingly but I don't rely on that > as > > much, is just people are not qualified to be real astrologers in > age > > of kali, as Srila Prabhupada strong indicated in his books. And > again > > I learnt this the hard way after I got my heart severely broken > > > > If you don't like what I wrote kick me off the group, but if you do > > that you are also a closed minded " scholar. " > > > > wes > > sohamsa@ .com, " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> > wrote: > > > > Namaste friends, > > > > > Good for him! Spiritual sadhana is far more important, useful, > > > interesting and pleasant than astrology. > > > > A few people wondered why I said like this. I will explain with a > metaphor. > > > > Life is like a long movie and the material world a movie theater. > Many people become overly attached with this movie. When good things > happen in the movie, they are excited. When bad things happen in the > movie, they are depressed. They are too deeply engrossed in the > movie. They don't realize that this is " just a movie " , will end > sooner or later and then a new movie will start. > > > > The goal of all spiritual sadhana is to realize that this is just a > movie and not be overly attached to it. In other words, one should be > able to watch it without getting excited when good things happen in > the movie and without getting depressed when bad things happen in the > movie. Realization that this is just a movie should become common > sense and be ingrained in each action, thought and impulse. One > should work towards that. That is the essense of all scriptures. > Spiritual sadhana of all kinds is aimed at eventually changing one's > attitude so that one views all life experiences with an equal mind. > > > > Now, it is possible to predict what happens next in the movie, > based on what happened so far. Predicting the next scene in the movie > is an interesting activity and the art/science behind it is > interesting to study, research, learn and experiment with. But, when > we say that the final goal is to realize that it is just a movie and > being able to accept what happens in the next scene, with neither > excitement nor depression, then what use is it to predict what > happens in the next scene? > > > > From this point of view, spiritual sadhana makes one mature in > handling life and attaining everlasting bliss. It enables one to > watch the movie without any worries. > > > > But, there ARE people who cannot have that attitude, yet. Being > able to foretell the next scene is useful to them and prepares them > for the next scene. As rishis are compassionate about every being and > not just enlightened ones, they taught methods that enable us to do > it. So we study them and put them to use. Nevertheless, everyone will > eventually have to get used to accepting the movie as is and making > the realization that it is just a movie and what happens in it does > not matter, as part of one's common sense, thoughts and actions. Once > one does that, learning the art/science of predicting the next scene > is no longer important, useful or interesting. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > - > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao > > sohamsa@ .com ; ; > vedic astrology > > Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:13 PM > > Re: Jaimini on Chara Karakas --> To Visti and Narasimha > > > > > > Namaste Sri Shanumkha, > > > > Obviously you are well-read and had the fortune of learning from > a good scholar. I am glad to meet you. > > > > Thank you for clarifying about Sri Iranganti Rangacharya' s views > as you understand them through your association. > > > > > 5. What he told me was different from what he explained in his > > > book... > > > 4. Regarding the Chara Karaka issue, he works out the way > > > Narasimha worked out, excepting Rahu becoming Atma Karaka. He > has > > > shown how Rahu can be other Chara Karaka vide his Jaimini > Sutramritam > > > Sanskrit ¡V English Commentary. He has not resolved the case > with Rahu > > > becoming higher longitude planet after deducting from 30 > degrees, out > > > of eight planets. > > > > I am glad to know that his approach is similar to mine. You > said " excepting Rahu becoming AK " . Later you said he has not resolved > the case. Are you saying that he has not made up his mind on whether > Rahu can become AK or not? *I* have. > > > > > 6. He tells that Rahu can¡¦t become Atma Karaka since Jaimini > > > himself says that ¡§ Sa Ishte Bandha Mokshayoh¡¨, meaning that > AK can > > > give either Bandhana or Moksha. But, since Rahu is karaka for > > > Bandhana, he can never be considered for chara atma karaka. I > want to > > > reiterate that he has not shown as how to consider Rahu when he > > > becomes highest longitude planet. > > > > I dispute the notion that Rahu can only give bandhana and not > moksha. > > > > > But, I can¡¦t pressurize him keeping his age in mind. He, now, > > > concentrates more on his spiritual sadhana than Astrology. > That¡¦s the > > > precise reason why he gave away all his collection of Jaimini > works > > > to one of his disciples. > > > > Good for him! Spiritual sadhana is far more important, useful, > interesting and pleasant than astrology. > > > > After I started daily homam and intensified my meditation, I too > wanted to leave astrology and spend my free time in spiritual > sadhana. But my spiritual guru forced me to remain active in > astrology and work on interpreting Parasara. I am just carrying out > his command. > > > > > Taking 8 CK for living beings and 7 CK for > > > Mundane is not given either in any Jaimini work or Vriddha > karika or > > > in BPHS. > > > > Absolutely! When none of the reliable sources mentions this > bifurcation, one is valid in questioning this hypothesis. > > > > > m. Well, Karaka dasa given by Narasimha, is different in > Jaimini > > > Astrology. It is called AtmaKaraka Dasa and start from the Rasi > > > occupied by AK and proceeds Kendras, Panapharas and Apoklimas. > The > > > duration calculation is very peculiar, based on the > ¡§Satallabhayo ¡K.¡¨ > > > Sutra. > > > > What you described was also mentioned as Karaka kendradi dasa by > Parasara. In addition, he also taught the Karaka dasa I gave. > > > > Overall, thank you very much for a very interesting email. > > > > I have only BPHS and a few modern commentaries on Jaimini in > English/Sanskrit/ Telugu. I do not have the works of Raghava Bhatta, > Nrisimha Suri and Nilakantha. If I had access to their views on > Jaimini, I might have been able to do a better job in interpreting > the grey areas in Parasara's teachings. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > sohamsa@ .com, " Shanmukha " <teli_sha2002@ > wrote: > > > > > > Om Namah Sivaya > > > > > > Namaste Sri Visti, Sri Narasimha and others, > > > > > > I have been closely following the discussion on Chara Karakas > and the > > > article by Narasimha. I observed in one of your (Visti¡¦s) > earlier > > > mails, that you referred Sri Iranganti Rangacharya opines that > > > Jaimini Sutras are complete and nothing is missing. Since, you > > > referred to Rangacharya. I am interfering as I do have some > > > interaction with him. Hence, I want to put forth the views of > Sri > > > Rangacharya, regarding the issue as I understood from him. But, > I > > > want to state that I am neither a spokesperson for Sri > Rangacharya, > > > nor a Jyotisha scholar nor a Sanskrit scholar. The following > lines > > > are purely my understanding regarding the issue. > > > > > > 1. Though, Sri Rangacharya never indicated that any sutra is > > > missing from the first two adhyayas, but he always says that > 3rd and > > > 4th adhyayas available now are merely the interpolated > versions. > > > That¡¦s the reason why he didn¡¦t attempt to translate them, > even after > > > being persuaded by Sri B.V.Raman. > > > 2. He always reiterates that to understand Jaimini Sage, > Vriddha > > > Karikas are the authority. He claims that he always followed > the > > > vriddha karakas and never contradicted or transgressed those > slokas > > > in his commentary. > > > 3. He considers Jaimini sutras are much earlier to Parasara > Hora > > > since the Sutra Vangmaya is much earlier to Sloka Vangmaya. He > > > considers Parasara Hora is a compendium of all the astrological > > > principles available, that is a compilation work. > > > 4. Regarding the Chara Karaka issue, he works out the way > > > Narasimha worked out, excepting Rahu becoming Atma Karaka. He > has > > > shown how Rahu can be other Chara Karaka vide his Jaimini > Sutramritam > > > Sanskrit ¡V English Commentary. He has not resolved the case > with Rahu > > > becoming higher longitude planet after deducting from 30 > degrees, out > > > of eight planets. > > > 5. What he told me was different from what he explained in his > > > book. But, I can¡¦t pressurize him keeping his age in mind. He, > now, > > > concentrates more on his spiritual sadhana than Astrology. > That¡¦s the > > > precise reason why he gave away all his collection of Jaimini > works > > > to one of his disciples. > > > 6. He tells that Rahu can¡¦t become Atma Karaka since Jaimini > > > himself says that ¡§ Sa Ishte Bandha Mokshayoh¡¨, meaning that > AK can > > > give either Bandhana or Moksha. But, since Rahu is karaka for > > > Bandhana, he can never be considered for chara atma karaka. I > want to > > > reiterate that he has not shown as how to consider Rahu when he > > > becomes highest longitude planet. > > > > > > As I said earlier I am not a spokesperson for him and the above > > > points can be taken worth of their salt. But, one thing I can > > > honestly say that Sri Rangacharya is fighting through out his > life > > > for the cause of Jaimini Astrology. In his commentary, we > don¡¦t find > > > pitri karaka after Matri Karaka. According to him, the karakas > are > > > AK,Amk,BK,MK, PK,GK and DK only. But, I admit that Pitri Karaka > was > > > mentioned in one of the manuscript (palm leave) I happened to > see. > > > Again, in the manuscript referred to by Sri Vadrevu > Suryanarayana > > > Murthy, he doesn¡¦t find Pitri Karaka. By the way, I think, he > is the > > > first person to interpret Saturn as karaka for elder brother > for the > > > sutra ¡§Mando Jyayan Graheshu¡¨. Hence, it can be debated > > > whether ¡§Tasya Pitah¡¨ ever existed. In fact this debate is > there for > > > the ages. Hence, we have to resolve this not only with > scientific > > > approach but also with practical examples. Sri Narasimha was > right in > > > that direction. > > > > > > Sri Rangacharya opines that ¡§Eke¡¨ word in ¡§Mata Saha ¡K¡¨ > sutra means > > > that Sage Jaimini does not endorse combining MK and PK. He > tells that > > > interpreting Sutra Vangmaya is different from the case with > sloka > > > Vangmaya. > > > > > > Somebody argued that Jaimini didn¡¦t mention the special > condition of > > > including Rahu only when two planets occupy the same degree. > Well, if > > > you look in at the calculation of 8th house given by Sanjay ji > is > > > also not mentioned by Jaimini. That method is deduced from > Vriddha > > > Karika. Hence it should be kept in mind that to understand > Jaimini, > > > Vriddha Karikas are the authority. By the way, how many of us > know > > > that Raghava Bhatta and Nrisimha Suri extensively used > calculation of > > > 8th house according to vriddha karika? How many of us know > there are > > > special ayurdasas called ¡§Jaya Bhava Pamsa, Atmano Bhava Pamsa > Dasas > > > extensively dealt by Raghava Bhatta and Nrisimha Suri ? I > request all > > > to read ¡§Jaimini Sutramritam¡¨ by Sri Rangacharya, since he is > the > > > only commentator who dared to give Vriddha Karika slokas in his > > > commentary. Why I say Parasara is not the final authority on > Jamini > > > Sutras is the fact that no astrological classic said to be > Parasari, > > > never dealt the concepts like Padas, Rasi Drishti and argala. > Of > > > course, Uttara Kalamrita and brihaspata samhita are exceptions. > > > Jataka Tatwa by Mahadeva Pathak is very recent scholar and he > never > > > dealt any of Rasi dasas. Yes, BPHS can be taken as one of the > vriddha > > > karika, since Parasara is the only rishi who could compile so > > > beautifully all the astrological principles available. Hence, > HE can > > > be treated as one of the authority but not the final. Even if > we look > > > at the verses given by Narasimha in his Chara Karaka article > look > > > like merely inspired / interpolated verses from Vriddha Karika. > This > > > is my humble view. The other way is also possible. > > > > > > Sorry for deviating from the issue. I write below my humble > > > understanding regarding chara karaka. > > > > > > Jaimini is always specific in his sutras. In fact all sutra > vangmaya > > > is specific and cryptic as well. When he says ¡§Eke¡¨, it means > that it > > > is not his opinion. Taking 8 CK for living beings and 7 CK for > > > Mundane is not given either in any Jaimini work or Vriddha > karika or > > > in BPHS. > > > > > > When Jaimini Speaks ¡§Saptanam AshtanamVa¡¨ > > > a. If he considers 8 CK then, he would never say ¡§ Saptanam¡¨ > > > b. He doesn¡¦t endorse the opinion of MK and PK same. So he > > > treats MK and PK different. Combining above two proves that > only 7 CK > > > and MK, PK different and they are AK, AmK, BK, MK, PK, GK, and > DK. > > > Vriddha Karika is again very specific > > > c. If he considers only 7 planets, he would never say > Asthtanaam > > > Va¡¨, hence he asks us to consider 8 planets. He didn¡¦t spell > out the > > > condition as when to consider 7 or 8 planets. Now, Vriddha > Karika > > > comes to rescue. Sri Narasimha already gave that sloka in his > earlier > > > mail. > > > d. Now, out of 7 CK, it is to be decided whether to include Pik > > > or PK. Since sage himself spaks that MK and PK are different, > PK must > > > be included. > > > e. If you closely look at the Sutras we don¡¦t find specific > > > sthira Karaka for Mata and Pita. Hence, one may doubt the > inclusion > > > of MK since no sthira karaka is mentioned. But Sage himself > mentions > > > MK vide sutra ¡§Mata Saha Putra¡K.¡¨. Now, only Pitri Karaka > inclusion > > > in Chara Karaka scheme is doubtful and since it is there in > some > > > manuscripts and not in some, we must resolve it with research, > > > experiments and sadhana. But, we can understand Venus is Karaka > for > > > Parents vide sutra ¡§ Patni Pitarau ¡K..¡¨. > > > f. Sage only states 4 sthira karakas > > > 1. BK ---- " ³ Mars > > > 2. PK ----- " ³ Jupiter > > > 3. GK ---- " ³ Mercury > > > 4. DK ----- " ³ Venus > > > g. We can get the karaka for Mother and Father as the stronger > > > of Moon and Mars, and the stronger of Sun and Venus > respectively from > > > other adhyayas. > > > h. Interpreting 3rd house from Mars etc. is not new to Jaimini > > > system. Its well known to the commentators like Sri Raghava > Bhatta > > > and Nrisimha Suri and they have even given the karakas for > parents, > > > brothers etc., apart from chara karakas. > > > i. Now, how to include 8 planets for 7 CK scheme? If two > planets > > > are at the same degree, then Rahu comes in. If three planets > are at > > > the same degree, then one chara karaka will be omitted and will > be > > > filled up by corresponding sthira karaka. > > > For example > > > 1. If each planet at different degrees " ³ No Rahu coming in. > > > 2. If AK and AmK at same degree " ³ No Rahu coming in, > > > Nasargika Bala considered > > > 3. If AK, AmK, BK same degree " ³ Rahu comes in and one planet > omitted > > > > > > Now other than AK > > > 1. If two Planets " ³ one planet, No karaka > > > 1. If three planets " ³ two planets, one Karaka omitted > > > 3. If four planets " ³ three planets, two karakas > > > 4. If five planets " ³ 4 planets, three karakas > > > 5. If six planets " ³ 5 planets, 4 karakas > > > 6. If seven planets " ³ -do- > > > > > > The above is found in Rangacharya¡¦s Jaimini Sutramritam and he > has > > > been following it since 30-40 years. I know the above > explanation is > > > not clear and logical but it shows the way vriddha karikas > instructed > > > to do. It shall be born in mind that we must move further > keeping and > > > continually referring to vriddha karikas to understand Jaimini > > > Sutras. So, whatever Narasimha wrote in his article is not new > and > > > well practiced by Jaimini scholars excepting Rahu becoming AK, > and > > > taking PiK in place of PK in 7 CK scheme. > > > j. Now, comes how to use karaka lopa. Vriddha Karika shows two > > > ways of Ommission of Antya Karaka and Agrima Karaka. It must be > > > researched and applied to know the accuracy of each scheme, not > just > > > debating on it, since it is vriddha showing the beacon of > light. I > > > request all to understand vriddha karka slokas well. Alas, most > > > English Jaimini commentaries never mention these slokas. > > > k. Vriddha karika again mentions that Atma Karaka never gets > > > omitted in Antya karak lopa scheme. That¡¦s the precise reason > why you > > > don¡¦t find sthira karaka for Atma and Amatya karaka. Sri > Narasimha > > > considers Agrima Karaka lopa, if so then, when Ak and Amk are > at the > > > same degree, then AK must be taken over by sthira karaka. But > he > > > doesn¡¦t apply this to AK, where in he takes the DMS again to > find the > > > AK. Here Vriddha karika is very specific that AK cannot be > omitted. > > > So, if Narsimha considers AK can¡¦t be taken over, then he must > > > consider Antya Karaka Lopa scheme. I am giving below the > relevant > > > Vriddha Karika sloka. > > > ¡§Amsa Samye Grahau Dwau Chet Jayetam Yasya Janmani > > > Swa Karakam Vina Lupyati Chantya Karakaha Nischayam¡¨ > > > > > > l. So, Sri Rangacharya¡¦s method of taking Naisargika strong > > > Graha for AK when AK and AmK are at the Same Degree seems > logical and > > > in accordance with Vriddha Karika. > > > m. Well, Karaka dasa given by Narasimha, is different in > Jaimini > > > Astrology. It is called AtmaKaraka Dasa and start from the Rasi > > > occupied by AK and proceeds Kendras, Panapharas and Apoklimas. > The > > > duration calculation is very peculiar, based on the > ¡§Satallabhayo ¡K.¡¨ > > > Sutra. > > > > > > If anyone gets the feeling that I am saying there shall not be > any > > > independent interpretation of sutras, my answer is NO. I want > to say > > > that whatever the interpretation, it must not contradict the > vriddha > > > karika slokas. Now, new sort of distorting knowledge is > happening. > > > Some learned scholars even wrote article on Lagnamsaka dasa as > > > phalita dasa. But, Krishna Mishra in his Jyotish Phala > Ratanamaala, > > > mentions Lagnamsaka dasa as Ayur dasa. This is like the other > scholar > > > writing book on Manduka dasa without understanding what Vriddha > > > karika says about Manduka dasa. New Commentator may contradict > with > > > other ancient commentators like Neelakantha, Raghava Bhatta, > but not > > > with Vriddha Karikas. They are like sritis. As it is said if > you have > > > a doubt and Sriti and Purana differing on the issue, preference > must > > > be given to Sriti only. Similarly if commentator contradicts > with > > > Vriddha Karika, we must follow vriddha only. It is proven time > and > > > again and Narasimha finds the same. Vriddha Karika method of > > > including Rahu when two planets are at the same degree, works > well. > > > > > > I have been contemplating to write this mail, but finally I > decided > > > to write, let whatever may happen. I hope I could put my points > > > straight. Thanks for reading along, and I request readers to > study > > > vriddha karikas, not merely asking to explain every thing under > the > > > sky with chara karakas. Well, I have not touched how to use > chara > > > karakas for interpretation, sincerely; I don¡¦t know how to > use. This > > > is my beginning in understanding CK scheme. > > > > > > Let the knowledge come everywhere. > > > Warm Regards, > > > Shanmukha. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 9, 2008 Report Share Posted November 9, 2008 Wesley Tired of your comments. You are being moderated. One who reads Prabhupada and claims to be a Viashnava cannot hurt even an ant...so what to talk of hurting human beings. You got issues with subscriptions or something, write to me directly instead of wasting the time of so many out here. I did not know that Robert Koch had completely parted ways with me. Thats information! Sanjay Rath sohamsa [sohamsa ] On Behalf Of wesley 07 November 2008 23:43 sohamsa Re: Astrology and spiritual sadhana I only see cover ups sohamsa , " Stephen K. Sufian " <veda108 wrote: > > Dear Narasimha, > I don't know whether this quote by wesley is taken out of context: I'm assuming it is. I admire you greatly and know that your dedication to jyotish as a valid part of one's spiritual sadhana is very high. I have not yet, though I so much wished to, been able to get into the details of your original prediction on the election to see why it went awry. I hope you will explore this issue because we need to keep refining our techniques in order to see clearly and act realistically. Jyotish is called the " Eyes of the Veda " . It is so important for all of us that we see through these eyes. Please assist us by exploring the actual results of the election and seeing what jyotish tools will supplement the ones you originally used in order to give us the correct results. > Hare Rama Krishna > Steve > > --- On Fri, 11/7/08, wesley <ngjonhoi wrote: > > wesley <ngjonhoi > Re: Astrology and spiritual sadhana > sohamsa > Friday, November 7, 2008, 7:04 AM > > > > > > > > I would just laugh. All that bunch of complicated and fansy Tithi > > Pravesh techniques for a TOTALLY wrong prediction, man I know > Sanjay > > Rath is a bad guy, he who charges me 50 and never gives me the > > magazine, and his wife didn't respond to my mail. Robert Koch left > > them is a smart move. > > > > I am glad I left the Jaimini mess, I just stick to the basics, the > > parasharas and the western progressions, and progress to transits, > > and those are good enough, for 90% of the predictions, I don't need > > the JAIMINIS and then go to the wrong track and then get > > disillusioned, well I learnt the hard way too. > > > > > > So now I still use astrology sporadingly but I don't rely on that > as > > much, is just people are not qualified to be real astrologers in > age > > of kali, as Srila Prabhupada strong indicated in his books. And > again > > I learnt this the hard way after I got my heart severely broken > > > > If you don't like what I wrote kick me off the group, but if you do > > that you are also a closed minded " scholar. " > > > > wes > > sohamsa@ .com, " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> > wrote: > > > > Namaste friends, > > > > > Good for him! Spiritual sadhana is far more important, useful, > > > interesting and pleasant than astrology. > > > > A few people wondered why I said like this. I will explain with a > metaphor. > > > > Life is like a long movie and the material world a movie theater. > Many people become overly attached with this movie. When good things > happen in the movie, they are excited. When bad things happen in the > movie, they are depressed. They are too deeply engrossed in the > movie. They don't realize that this is " just a movie " , will end > sooner or later and then a new movie will start. > > > > The goal of all spiritual sadhana is to realize that this is just a > movie and not be overly attached to it. In other words, one should be > able to watch it without getting excited when good things happen in > the movie and without getting depressed when bad things happen in the > movie. Realization that this is just a movie should become common > sense and be ingrained in each action, thought and impulse. One > should work towards that. That is the essense of all scriptures. > Spiritual sadhana of all kinds is aimed at eventually changing one's > attitude so that one views all life experiences with an equal mind. > > > > Now, it is possible to predict what happens next in the movie, > based on what happened so far. Predicting the next scene in the movie > is an interesting activity and the art/science behind it is > interesting to study, research, learn and experiment with. But, when > we say that the final goal is to realize that it is just a movie and > being able to accept what happens in the next scene, with neither > excitement nor depression, then what use is it to predict what > happens in the next scene? > > > > From this point of view, spiritual sadhana makes one mature in > handling life and attaining everlasting bliss. It enables one to > watch the movie without any worries. > > > > But, there ARE people who cannot have that attitude, yet. Being > able to foretell the next scene is useful to them and prepares them > for the next scene. As rishis are compassionate about every being and > not just enlightened ones, they taught methods that enable us to do > it. So we study them and put them to use. Nevertheless, everyone will > eventually have to get used to accepting the movie as is and making > the realization that it is just a movie and what happens in it does > not matter, as part of one's common sense, thoughts and actions. Once > one does that, learning the art/science of predicting the next scene > is no longer important, useful or interesting. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > - > > Narasimha P.V.R. Rao > > sohamsa@ .com ; ; > vedic astrology > > Wednesday, November 05, 2008 10:13 PM > > Re: Jaimini on Chara Karakas --> To Visti and Narasimha > > > > > > Namaste Sri Shanumkha, > > > > Obviously you are well-read and had the fortune of learning from > a good scholar. I am glad to meet you. > > > > Thank you for clarifying about Sri Iranganti Rangacharya' s views > as you understand them through your association. > > > > > 5. What he told me was different from what he explained in his > > > book... > > > 4. Regarding the Chara Karaka issue, he works out the way > > > Narasimha worked out, excepting Rahu becoming Atma Karaka. He > has > > > shown how Rahu can be other Chara Karaka vide his Jaimini > Sutramritam > > > Sanskrit ¡V English Commentary. He has not resolved the case > with Rahu > > > becoming higher longitude planet after deducting from 30 > degrees, out > > > of eight planets. > > > > I am glad to know that his approach is similar to mine. You > said " excepting Rahu becoming AK " . Later you said he has not resolved > the case. Are you saying that he has not made up his mind on whether > Rahu can become AK or not? *I* have. > > > > > 6. He tells that Rahu can¡¦t become Atma Karaka since Jaimini > > > himself says that ¡§ Sa Ishte Bandha Mokshayoh¡¨, meaning that > AK can > > > give either Bandhana or Moksha. But, since Rahu is karaka for > > > Bandhana, he can never be considered for chara atma karaka. I > want to > > > reiterate that he has not shown as how to consider Rahu when he > > > becomes highest longitude planet. > > > > I dispute the notion that Rahu can only give bandhana and not > moksha. > > > > > But, I can¡¦t pressurize him keeping his age in mind. He, now, > > > concentrates more on his spiritual sadhana than Astrology. > That¡¦s the > > > precise reason why he gave away all his collection of Jaimini > works > > > to one of his disciples. > > > > Good for him! Spiritual sadhana is far more important, useful, > interesting and pleasant than astrology. > > > > After I started daily homam and intensified my meditation, I too > wanted to leave astrology and spend my free time in spiritual > sadhana. But my spiritual guru forced me to remain active in > astrology and work on interpreting Parasara. I am just carrying out > his command. > > > > > Taking 8 CK for living beings and 7 CK for > > > Mundane is not given either in any Jaimini work or Vriddha > karika or > > > in BPHS. > > > > Absolutely! When none of the reliable sources mentions this > bifurcation, one is valid in questioning this hypothesis. > > > > > m. Well, Karaka dasa given by Narasimha, is different in > Jaimini > > > Astrology. It is called AtmaKaraka Dasa and start from the Rasi > > > occupied by AK and proceeds Kendras, Panapharas and Apoklimas. > The > > > duration calculation is very peculiar, based on the > ¡§Satallabhayo ¡K.¡¨ > > > Sutra. > > > > What you described was also mentioned as Karaka kendradi dasa by > Parasara. In addition, he also taught the Karaka dasa I gave. > > > > Overall, thank you very much for a very interesting email. > > > > I have only BPHS and a few modern commentaries on Jaimini in > English/Sanskrit/ Telugu. I do not have the works of Raghava Bhatta, > Nrisimha Suri and Nilakantha. If I had access to their views on > Jaimini, I might have been able to do a better job in interpreting > the grey areas in Parasara's teachings. > > > > Best regards, > > Narasimha > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ homam > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAst rologer.org/ tarpana > > Spirituality: http://groups. / group/vedic- wisdom > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro. home.comcast. net > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAst rologer.org > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagan nath.org > > ------------ --------- --------- --------- --------- --------- - > > > > > sohamsa@ .com, " Shanmukha " <teli_sha2002@ > wrote: > > > > > > Om Namah Sivaya > > > > > > Namaste Sri Visti, Sri Narasimha and others, > > > > > > I have been closely following the discussion on Chara Karakas > and the > > > article by Narasimha. I observed in one of your (Visti¡¦s) > earlier > > > mails, that you referred Sri Iranganti Rangacharya opines that > > > Jaimini Sutras are complete and nothing is missing. Since, you > > > referred to Rangacharya. I am interfering as I do have some > > > interaction with him. Hence, I want to put forth the views of > Sri > > > Rangacharya, regarding the issue as I understood from him. But, > I > > > want to state that I am neither a spokesperson for Sri > Rangacharya, > > > nor a Jyotisha scholar nor a Sanskrit scholar. The following > lines > > > are purely my understanding regarding the issue. > > > > > > 1. Though, Sri Rangacharya never indicated that any sutra is > > > missing from the first two adhyayas, but he always says that > 3rd and > > > 4th adhyayas available now are merely the interpolated > versions. > > > That¡¦s the reason why he didn¡¦t attempt to translate them, > even after > > > being persuaded by Sri B.V.Raman. > > > 2. He always reiterates that to understand Jaimini Sage, > Vriddha > > > Karikas are the authority. He claims that he always followed > the > > > vriddha karakas and never contradicted or transgressed those > slokas > > > in his commentary. > > > 3. He considers Jaimini sutras are much earlier to Parasara > Hora > > > since the Sutra Vangmaya is much earlier to Sloka Vangmaya. He > > > considers Parasara Hora is a compendium of all the astrological > > > principles available, that is a compilation work. > > > 4. Regarding the Chara Karaka issue, he works out the way > > > Narasimha worked out, excepting Rahu becoming Atma Karaka. He > has > > > shown how Rahu can be other Chara Karaka vide his Jaimini > Sutramritam > > > Sanskrit ¡V English Commentary. He has not resolved the case > with Rahu > > > becoming higher longitude planet after deducting from 30 > degrees, out > > > of eight planets. > > > 5. What he told me was different from what he explained in his > > > book. But, I can¡¦t pressurize him keeping his age in mind. He, > now, > > > concentrates more on his spiritual sadhana than Astrology. > That¡¦s the > > > precise reason why he gave away all his collection of Jaimini > works > > > to one of his disciples. > > > 6. He tells that Rahu can¡¦t become Atma Karaka since Jaimini > > > himself says that ¡§ Sa Ishte Bandha Mokshayoh¡¨, meaning that > AK can > > > give either Bandhana or Moksha. But, since Rahu is karaka for > > > Bandhana, he can never be considered for chara atma karaka. I > want to > > > reiterate that he has not shown as how to consider Rahu when he > > > becomes highest longitude planet. > > > > > > As I said earlier I am not a spokesperson for him and the above > > > points can be taken worth of their salt. But, one thing I can > > > honestly say that Sri Rangacharya is fighting through out his > life > > > for the cause of Jaimini Astrology. In his commentary, we > don¡¦t find > > > pitri karaka after Matri Karaka. According to him, the karakas > are > > > AK,Amk,BK,MK, PK,GK and DK only. But, I admit that Pitri Karaka > was > > > mentioned in one of the manuscript (palm leave) I happened to > see. > > > Again, in the manuscript referred to by Sri Vadrevu > Suryanarayana > > > Murthy, he doesn¡¦t find Pitri Karaka. By the way, I think, he > is the > > > first person to interpret Saturn as karaka for elder brother > for the > > > sutra ¡§Mando Jyayan Graheshu¡¨. Hence, it can be debated > > > whether ¡§Tasya Pitah¡¨ ever existed. In fact this debate is > there for > > > the ages. Hence, we have to resolve this not only with > scientific > > > approach but also with practical examples. Sri Narasimha was > right in > > > that direction. > > > > > > Sri Rangacharya opines that ¡§Eke¡¨ word in ¡§Mata Saha ¡K¡¨ > sutra means > > > that Sage Jaimini does not endorse combining MK and PK. He > tells that > > > interpreting Sutra Vangmaya is different from the case with > sloka > > > Vangmaya. > > > > > > Somebody argued that Jaimini didn¡¦t mention the special > condition of > > > including Rahu only when two planets occupy the same degree. > Well, if > > > you look in at the calculation of 8th house given by Sanjay ji > is > > > also not mentioned by Jaimini. That method is deduced from > Vriddha > > > Karika. Hence it should be kept in mind that to understand > Jaimini, > > > Vriddha Karikas are the authority. By the way, how many of us > know > > > that Raghava Bhatta and Nrisimha Suri extensively used > calculation of > > > 8th house according to vriddha karika? How many of us know > there are > > > special ayurdasas called ¡§Jaya Bhava Pamsa, Atmano Bhava Pamsa > Dasas > > > extensively dealt by Raghava Bhatta and Nrisimha Suri ? I > request all > > > to read ¡§Jaimini Sutramritam¡¨ by Sri Rangacharya, since he is > the > > > only commentator who dared to give Vriddha Karika slokas in his > > > commentary. Why I say Parasara is not the final authority on > Jamini > > > Sutras is the fact that no astrological classic said to be > Parasari, > > > never dealt the concepts like Padas, Rasi Drishti and argala. > Of > > > course, Uttara Kalamrita and brihaspata samhita are exceptions. > > > Jataka Tatwa by Mahadeva Pathak is very recent scholar and he > never > > > dealt any of Rasi dasas. Yes, BPHS can be taken as one of the > vriddha > > > karika, since Parasara is the only rishi who could compile so > > > beautifully all the astrological principles available. Hence, > HE can > > > be treated as one of the authority but not the final. Even if > we look > > > at the verses given by Narasimha in his Chara Karaka article > look > > > like merely inspired / interpolated verses from Vriddha Karika. > This > > > is my humble view. The other way is also possible. > > > > > > Sorry for deviating from the issue. I write below my humble > > > understanding regarding chara karaka. > > > > > > Jaimini is always specific in his sutras. In fact all sutra > vangmaya > > > is specific and cryptic as well. When he says ¡§Eke¡¨, it means > that it > > > is not his opinion. Taking 8 CK for living beings and 7 CK for > > > Mundane is not given either in any Jaimini work or Vriddha > karika or > > > in BPHS. > > > > > > When Jaimini Speaks ¡§Saptanam AshtanamVa¡¨ > > > a. If he considers 8 CK then, he would never say ¡§ Saptanam¡¨ > > > b. He doesn¡¦t endorse the opinion of MK and PK same. So he > > > treats MK and PK different. Combining above two proves that > only 7 CK > > > and MK, PK different and they are AK, AmK, BK, MK, PK, GK, and > DK. > > > Vriddha Karika is again very specific > > > c. If he considers only 7 planets, he would never say > Asthtanaam > > > Va¡¨, hence he asks us to consider 8 planets. He didn¡¦t spell > out the > > > condition as when to consider 7 or 8 planets. Now, Vriddha > Karika > > > comes to rescue. Sri Narasimha already gave that sloka in his > earlier > > > mail. > > > d. Now, out of 7 CK, it is to be decided whether to include Pik > > > or PK. Since sage himself spaks that MK and PK are different, > PK must > > > be included. > > > e. If you closely look at the Sutras we don¡¦t find specific > > > sthira Karaka for Mata and Pita. Hence, one may doubt the > inclusion > > > of MK since no sthira karaka is mentioned. But Sage himself > mentions > > > MK vide sutra ¡§Mata Saha Putra¡K.¡¨. Now, only Pitri Karaka > inclusion > > > in Chara Karaka scheme is doubtful and since it is there in > some > > > manuscripts and not in some, we must resolve it with research, > > > experiments and sadhana. But, we can understand Venus is Karaka > for > > > Parents vide sutra ¡§ Patni Pitarau ¡K..¡¨. > > > f. Sage only states 4 sthira karakas > > > 1. BK ---- " ³ Mars > > > 2. PK ----- " ³ Jupiter > > > 3. GK ---- " ³ Mercury > > > 4. DK ----- " ³ Venus > > > g. We can get the karaka for Mother and Father as the stronger > > > of Moon and Mars, and the stronger of Sun and Venus > respectively from > > > other adhyayas. > > > h. Interpreting 3rd house from Mars etc. is not new to Jaimini > > > system. Its well known to the commentators like Sri Raghava > Bhatta > > > and Nrisimha Suri and they have even given the karakas for > parents, > > > brothers etc., apart from chara karakas. > > > i. Now, how to include 8 planets for 7 CK scheme? If two > planets > > > are at the same degree, then Rahu comes in. If three planets > are at > > > the same degree, then one chara karaka will be omitted and will > be > > > filled up by corresponding sthira karaka. > > > For example > > > 1. If each planet at different degrees " ³ No Rahu coming in. > > > 2. If AK and AmK at same degree " ³ No Rahu coming in, > > > Nasargika Bala considered > > > 3. If AK, AmK, BK same degree " ³ Rahu comes in and one planet > omitted > > > > > > Now other than AK > > > 1. If two Planets " ³ one planet, No karaka > > > 1. If three planets " ³ two planets, one Karaka omitted > > > 3. If four planets " ³ three planets, two karakas > > > 4. If five planets " ³ 4 planets, three karakas > > > 5. If six planets " ³ 5 planets, 4 karakas > > > 6. If seven planets " ³ -do- > > > > > > The above is found in Rangacharya¡¦s Jaimini Sutramritam and he > has > > > been following it since 30-40 years. I know the above > explanation is > > > not clear and logical but it shows the way vriddha karikas > instructed > > > to do. It shall be born in mind that we must move further > keeping and > > > continually referring to vriddha karikas to understand Jaimini > > > Sutras. So, whatever Narasimha wrote in his article is not new > and > > > well practiced by Jaimini scholars excepting Rahu becoming AK, > and > > > taking PiK in place of PK in 7 CK scheme. > > > j. Now, comes how to use karaka lopa. Vriddha Karika shows two > > > ways of Ommission of Antya Karaka and Agrima Karaka. It must be > > > researched and applied to know the accuracy of each scheme, not > just > > > debating on it, since it is vriddha showing the beacon of > light. I > > > request all to understand vriddha karka slokas well. Alas, most > > > English Jaimini commentaries never mention these slokas. > > > k. Vriddha karika again mentions that Atma Karaka never gets > > > omitted in Antya karak lopa scheme. That¡¦s the precise reason > why you > > > don¡¦t find sthira karaka for Atma and Amatya karaka. Sri > Narasimha > > > considers Agrima Karaka lopa, if so then, when Ak and Amk are > at the > > > same degree, then AK must be taken over by sthira karaka. But > he > > > doesn¡¦t apply this to AK, where in he takes the DMS again to > find the > > > AK. Here Vriddha karika is very specific that AK cannot be > omitted. > > > So, if Narsimha considers AK can¡¦t be taken over, then he must > > > consider Antya Karaka Lopa scheme. I am giving below the > relevant > > > Vriddha Karika sloka. > > > ¡§Amsa Samye Grahau Dwau Chet Jayetam Yasya Janmani > > > Swa Karakam Vina Lupyati Chantya Karakaha Nischayam¡¨ > > > > > > l. So, Sri Rangacharya¡¦s method of taking Naisargika strong > > > Graha for AK when AK and AmK are at the Same Degree seems > logical and > > > in accordance with Vriddha Karika. > > > m. Well, Karaka dasa given by Narasimha, is different in > Jaimini > > > Astrology. It is called AtmaKaraka Dasa and start from the Rasi > > > occupied by AK and proceeds Kendras, Panapharas and Apoklimas. > The > > > duration calculation is very peculiar, based on the > ¡§Satallabhayo ¡K.¡¨ > > > Sutra. > > > > > > If anyone gets the feeling that I am saying there shall not be > any > > > independent interpretation of sutras, my answer is NO. I want > to say > > > that whatever the interpretation, it must not contradict the > vriddha > > > karika slokas. Now, new sort of distorting knowledge is > happening. > > > Some learned scholars even wrote article on Lagnamsaka dasa as > > > phalita dasa. But, Krishna Mishra in his Jyotish Phala > Ratanamaala, > > > mentions Lagnamsaka dasa as Ayur dasa. This is like the other > scholar > > > writing book on Manduka dasa without understanding what Vriddha > > > karika says about Manduka dasa. New Commentator may contradict > with > > > other ancient commentators like Neelakantha, Raghava Bhatta, > but not > > > with Vriddha Karikas. They are like sritis. As it is said if > you have > > > a doubt and Sriti and Purana differing on the issue, preference > must > > > be given to Sriti only. Similarly if commentator contradicts > with > > > Vriddha Karika, we must follow vriddha only. It is proven time > and > > > again and Narasimha finds the same. Vriddha Karika method of > > > including Rahu when two planets are at the same degree, works > well. > > > > > > I have been contemplating to write this mail, but finally I > decided > > > to write, let whatever may happen. I hope I could put my points > > > straight. Thanks for reading along, and I request readers to > study > > > vriddha karikas, not merely asking to explain every thing under > the > > > sky with chara karakas. Well, I have not touched how to use > chara > > > karakas for interpretation, sincerely; I don¡¦t know how to > use. This > > > is my beginning in understanding CK scheme. > > > > > > Let the knowledge come everywhere. > > > Warm Regards, > > > Shanmukha. > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 11, 2008 Report Share Posted November 11, 2008 Dear Steve, You asked for a postmortem of the US election prediction. I am afraid I settled down with a wrong birthtime for Obama. I did notice that he runs Jupiter's TA dasa in January 2009 and Jupiter is 10th lord in 10th in rasi in annual TP chart. I did notice that Jupiter is also the hora lord. These are conducive to power. But, when I saw the natal Vimsottari dasa, antardasa of a planet in 12th in D-10 was running. Mahadasa of Jupiter was running and he is 8th lord in 7th. The natal Vimsottari dasa did not really suggest a big rise. In the TP dasamsa, 10th lord was in 6th with Rahu and his dasa was running on Nov 4. Lagna lord Jupiter is in 8th with uchcha bhanga. All this did not (and does not) seem great to me. Relatively, I did more work on McCain chart and was more convinced of the time. It was not that McCain's chart was super strong, but it seemed stronger than the above chart of Obama to me, with the little time I got to spend on this. Even when I look back now, I am not sure if 19:24 time mentioned in Obama's birth certificate is correct. If I remain honest with the nakshatra dasa and TP principles that normally work for me, using which I made many correct predictions, I cannot explain his big win with that time. Something is amiss. I am afraid the birthtime accepted by me is incorrect. This is the problem with political predictions, especially when the birth data of both the candidates is controversial! In fact, there are court cases in US on both the candidates alleging that Obama was born in Mombasa, Kenya and McCain was born in proper Panama (i.e. outside US military zone) and hence not natural born citizens. Bottomline is that there is too much of uncertainty on the birth data. Of course, I accepted that 19:24 birthtime and chose to make a prediction using it. So I must take responsibility for it and accept my defeat in this issue. I do! Best regards, Narasimha Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana Spirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org -- In sohamsa , " Stephen K. Sufian " <veda108 wrote: > > Dear Narasimha, > I don't know whether this quote by wesley is taken out of context: I'm assuming it is. I admire you greatly and know that your dedication to jyotish as a valid part of one's spiritual sadhana is very high. I have not yet, though I so much wished to, been able to get into the details of your original prediction on the election to see why it went awry. I hope you will explore this issue because we need to keep refining our techniques in order to see clearly and act realistically. Jyotish is called the " Eyes of the Veda " . It is so important for all of us that we see through these eyes. Please assist us by exploring the actual results of the election and seeing what jyotish tools will supplement the ones you originally used in order to give us the correct results. > Hare Rama Krishna > Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Dear Steve, You asked for a postmortem of the US election prediction. I am afraid I settled down with a wrong birthtime for Obama. I did notice that he runs Jupiter's TA dasa in January 2009 and Jupiter is 10th lord in 10th in rasi in annual TP chart. I did notice that Jupiter is also the hora lord. These are conducive to power. But, when I saw the natal Vimsottari dasa, antardasa of a planet in 12th in D-10 was running. Mahadasa of Jupiter was running and he is 8th lord in 7th. The natal Vimsottari dasa did not really suggest a big rise. In the TP dasamsa, 10th lord was in 6th with Rahu and his dasa was running on Nov 4. Lagna lord Jupiter is in 8th with uchcha bhanga. All this did not (and does not) seem great to me. Relatively, I did more work on McCain chart and was more convinced of the time. It was not that McCain's chart was super strong, but it seemed stronger than the above chart of Obama to me, with the little time I got to spend on this. Even when I look back now, I am not sure if 19:24 time mentioned in Obama's birth certificate is correct. If I remain honest with the nakshatra dasa and TP principles that normally work for me, using which I made many correct predictions, I cannot explain his big win with that time. Something is amiss. I am afraid the birthtime accepted by me is incorrect. This is the problem with political predictions, especially when the birth data of both the candidates is controversial! In fact, there are court cases in US on both the candidates alleging that Obama was born in Mombasa, Kenya and McCain was born in proper Panama (i.e. outside US military zone) and hence not natural born citizens. Bottomline is that there is too much of uncertainty on the birth data. Of course, I accepted that 19:24 birthtime and chose to make a prediction using it. So I must take responsibility for it and accept my defeat in this issue. I do! Best regards,NarasimhaDo a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpanaSpirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.orgSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org -- In sohamsa , "Stephen K. Sufian" <veda108 wrote:>> Dear Narasimha,> I don't know whether this quote by wesley is taken out of context: I'm assuming it is. I admire you greatly and know that your dedication to jyotish as a valid part of one's spiritual sadhana is very high. I have not yet, though I so much wished to, been able to get into the details of your original prediction on the election to see why it went awry. I hope you will explore this issue because we need to keep refining our techniques in order to see clearly and act realistically. Jyotish is called the "Eyes of the Veda". It is so important for all of us that we see through these eyes. Please assist us by exploring the actual results of the election and seeing what jyotish tools will supplement the ones you originally used in order to give us the correct results.> Hare Rama Krishna> Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Dear Narasimha Ji, We all respect you for your knowledge and contribution to vedic astrology,i believe you were wrong in this prediction only because of wrong/insufficient birth data and not because of lack of knowledge.Please keep contributing. Best Regards, Aravind vedic astrology , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr wrote: > > Dear Steve, > > You asked for a postmortem of the US election prediction. > > I am afraid I settled down with a wrong birthtime for Obama. > > I did notice that he runs Jupiter's TA dasa in January 2009 and Jupiter is 10th lord in 10th in rasi in annual TP chart. I did notice that Jupiter is also the hora lord. These are conducive to power. But, when I saw the natal Vimsottari dasa, antardasa of a planet in 12th in D-10 was running. Mahadasa of Jupiter was running and he is 8th lord in 7th. The natal Vimsottari dasa did not really suggest a big rise. In the TP dasamsa, 10th lord was in 6th with Rahu and his dasa was running on Nov 4. Lagna lord Jupiter is in 8th with uchcha bhanga. All this did not (and does not) seem great to me. > > Relatively, I did more work on McCain chart and was more convinced of the time. It was not that McCain's chart was super strong, but it seemed stronger than the above chart of Obama to me, with the little time I got to spend on this. > > Even when I look back now, I am not sure if 19:24 time mentioned in Obama's birth certificate is correct. If I remain honest with the nakshatra dasa and TP principles that normally work for me, using which I made many correct predictions, I cannot explain his big win with that time. Something is amiss. I am afraid the birthtime accepted by me is incorrect. > > This is the problem with political predictions, especially when the birth data of both the candidates is controversial! In fact, there are court cases in US on both the candidates alleging that Obama was born in Mombasa, Kenya and McCain was born in proper Panama (i.e. outside US military zone) and hence not natural born citizens. Bottomline is that there is too much of uncertainty on the birth data. > > Of course, I accepted that 19:24 birthtime and chose to make a prediction using it. So I must take responsibility for it and accept my defeat in this issue. I do! > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > -- In sohamsa , " Stephen K. Sufian " <veda108@> > wrote: > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > I don't know whether this quote by wesley is taken out of context: > I'm assuming it is. I admire you greatly and know that your > dedication to jyotish as a valid part of one's spiritual sadhana is > very high. I have not yet, though I so much wished to, been able to > get into the details of your original prediction on the election to > see why it went awry. I hope you will explore this issue because we > need to keep refining our techniques in order to see clearly and act > realistically. Jyotish is called the " Eyes of the Veda " . It is so > important for all of us that we see through these eyes. Please assist > us by exploring the actual results of the election and seeing what > jyotish tools will supplement the ones you originally used in order > to give us the correct results. > > Hare Rama Krishna > > Steve > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Namaste sir the thing you wrote that accept my defeat in this issue. I do! is not really anybody interested in. you have made so many predictions right and there are so many people who are listening to your audios and learning jyotish wonderfully This was just a one of case and i think many people would be thinking the same way but the bottom line is even a very good astrolger can commit mistake i still have faith n i am still listening your audios regards jitender sohamsa , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr wrote: > > Dear Steve, > > You asked for a postmortem of the US election prediction. > > I am afraid I settled down with a wrong birthtime for Obama. > > I did notice that he runs Jupiter's TA dasa in January 2009 and Jupiter is 10th lord in 10th in rasi in annual TP chart. I did notice that Jupiter is also the hora lord. These are conducive to power. But, when I saw the natal Vimsottari dasa, antardasa of a planet in 12th in D-10 was running. Mahadasa of Jupiter was running and he is 8th lord in 7th. The natal Vimsottari dasa did not really suggest a big rise. In the TP dasamsa, 10th lord was in 6th with Rahu and his dasa was running on Nov 4. Lagna lord Jupiter is in 8th with uchcha bhanga. All this did not (and does not) seem great to me. > > Relatively, I did more work on McCain chart and was more convinced of the time. It was not that McCain's chart was super strong, but it seemed stronger than the above chart of Obama to me, with the little time I got to spend on this. > > Even when I look back now, I am not sure if 19:24 time mentioned in Obama's birth certificate is correct. If I remain honest with the nakshatra dasa and TP principles that normally work for me, using which I made many correct predictions, I cannot explain his big win with that time. Something is amiss. I am afraid the birthtime accepted by me is incorrect. > > This is the problem with political predictions, especially when the birth data of both the candidates is controversial! In fact, there are court cases in US on both the candidates alleging that Obama was born in Mombasa, Kenya and McCain was born in proper Panama (i.e. outside US military zone) and hence not natural born citizens. Bottomline is that there is too much of uncertainty on the birth data. > > Of course, I accepted that 19:24 birthtime and chose to make a prediction using it. So I must take responsibility for it and accept my defeat in this issue. I do! > > Best regards, > Narasimha > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana > Spirituality: > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org > > > -- In sohamsa , " Stephen K. Sufian " <veda108@> > wrote: > > > > Dear Narasimha, > > I don't know whether this quote by wesley is taken out of context: > I'm assuming it is. I admire you greatly and know that your > dedication to jyotish as a valid part of one's spiritual sadhana is > very high. I have not yet, though I so much wished to, been able to > get into the details of your original prediction on the election to > see why it went awry. I hope you will explore this issue because we > need to keep refining our techniques in order to see clearly and act > realistically. Jyotish is called the " Eyes of the Veda " . It is so > important for all of us that we see through these eyes. Please assist > us by exploring the actual results of the election and seeing what > jyotish tools will supplement the ones you originally used in order > to give us the correct results. > > Hare Rama Krishna > > Steve > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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