Parasara on Chara Karakas: Kechith - Classical reference

[Guest guest]

Namaste Narasimha Ji

 

Hope you have read my previous mail.If you beleive that evam is not

used in that sense it will certainly mean thus or in that manner as

you have observed.Then the other doubt that remains is -

 

Why did scholars of yeseter years think of two school of

thougths.There should be a reason.

 

1)It could be that they took ''Kechit'' ''as others opinion'' instead

of ''other''.

 

2)They were aware of the tradition where Kechit can be used to

express different schools of thought.

 

I am giving the following reference.

 

Please refer Shloka 12 of Adhyaya 1 of Varahahora starting with

(Kechithu Horam Pradhamaam Bhapasya..Vanjchanthi LabhadhipaTer

Dwiteeyaam)Then he talks similarly about Drekkana Lordship

differences.

 

Explanation from Dashadhyayee Karaka - Pakshantharena Hora

DrekkanaAdhipatyam Aha ''Kechithu'' ithi.Then he talks in detail

about diffrent opinions and the applicabilities of Hora and Drekkana

lordships.

 

Again the explanation is - ''KechidAcharya Vadanti Na BahuMathamithi

Swabhimatham Soochayathi''. ie By using word kechid Acharya is

talking about bahumatha or different opinions and it is not his

opinion(first hora belongs to the rashi lord and second hora belongs

to 11th rashi lord).

 

Then ''drekkana samjnamapai ...''difference in Drekkana lordship is

also explained.

 

''KechiThwi'' thyathra ''Thu'' Shabdena Vishaya VibhagoSthithee

Soochitham.(Not only difference in opinion through Kechid but the

extra sound ''Thu'' is pointing to sandarbha Vyathyasa as well. Those

are - First Drekkana lordship view is for Muhurtha, Second for Jataka

and third for Prashna. (TatKadhamMithi ChedUchyathe - Adya Paksho

Vidhane Dwiteeyo Jathake Thritheeya Prashne. Thatha cha Yavaneswara

and Yavanashewaras shloka is given).

 

He also says VarahaMihiras words are great and can only be understood

from Gurumukha.

 

The whole point in writing all these is grammatical usages in

classical texts can mean a lot. Your translation is fine, but we are

not sure whether Parashara was mentioning about ''diffrent schools''

not.

 

Further Please refer Shloka 3 of Adhyaya 13, where Kechit

KendraNavamshakeshu cha Vadanti''is mentioned.Here the topic is

difference in opinion about Kemadruma,Sunabha,Duradhura etc between

Jeevasharma, Shruthakeerthi etc.

 

Regards

Pradeep

 

, " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr

wrote:

>

> Namaste Sri Pradeep,

>

> > 1) ''Evam'' also has a common meaning and usage as ''and''.

>

> No, evam in Sanskrit means " in this manner " or " thus " as I said. It

does not have a " common meaning and usage " as " and " as you said. I

wonder if you are confusing with some other language.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

>

> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> Spirituality:

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>

>

> , " vijayadas_pradeep "

<vijayadas_pradeep@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Sarvashree Narasimha Rao and Sanjay Prabhakaran

> >

> > If i am allowed to intervene -

> >

> > 1) ''Evam'' also has a common meaning and usage as ''and''.

> > 2) Kechith - as i have mentioned before is traditionally referred

for

> > expressing different opinion.

> >

> > Therefore it can also mean , As per the opinion of some(Taking

Kechit

> > as a common factor) ''when 2 grahas are having equal degrees -

> > (''tada''- ''then'') use 8 karakas and as per others (''Saptaiva

> > KarakanEVAM '' - ''Seven Karakas AND''), (''Ashtau''- ''eight

> > karakas'') can be used. Kindly correct me if it cannot be

interpreted

> > like this.

> >

> > Couple of other concerns :-

> >

> > 1) In my view ''Matrikarakameva ANYE Vadanti Sutakarakam'' is -

> > Matrikaraka is Sutakaraka as per some others.Or the Sutakaraka

that

> > is ''seperately -Anye'' mentioned is same as Matrikaraka.

> >

> > 2)When two grahas are in equal bhagas, the AGRAkaraka ie the

Karaka

> > towards the end or edge (Agra has a meaning as edge or tip)

> > disappears. Why? If there are 7 planets and 7 Karakas and if two

> > planets qualify for the same karaka , then there is no planet to

take

> > the 7th karaka. All the seven will be covered with 6 karakas

(provided

> > only 2 are in tie). Thus the seventh karaka (the karaka on the

edge)

> > is left with no one to take up and can be studied using sthira

karaka.

> >

> > I find it VERY VERY difficult to digest on why the ''Top or

First ''

> > Karaka should disappear, if two planets achive the same degree.

What

> > does the karaka has to do here.It is only your personal

> > interpretation. However the shortage of grahas can make the last

> > karaka ''un-occuppied and disappear''. It can also be for this

reason

> > that some people talk about rahu in both the cases!

> >

> > Point: Prashara did not say that seven karakas is not applicable

when

> > 2 grahas are in tie.It is again your personal

> > interpretation.According to ''Kechit'' Parashara can very well

talk

> > about two opinions.

> >

> > Varahamihira did speak about diffrent schools in Varaha Hora. Can

> > Parashara too talk about such is the point that you are raising.

I

> > cannot comment.

> >

> > I can be wrong. But in my view this Agrakaraka interpretation

from

> > you is very hard to digest. You are using some political

analogies

> > and in a away is bringing new theories is my view.Correct me if i

am

> > wrong.

> >

> > Ofcourse you have made some strong views against mundane/natal

views

> > of S.Rath. I feel shri Rath should ideally quote Pramanas for

> > this.His supporters should kindly understand that shri Narasimha

Rao

> > requesting for a pramana is in order.They should request S.Rath

> > instead of arguing with Sri Rao.

> >

> > Pradeep

> >

> > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao "

<pvr@>

> > wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Sanjay,

> > >

> > > Hope you are doing well. Happy Deepavali! It is always nice to

hear

> > from you.

> > >

> > > Maharshi Parasara said " We use 7 or 8 planets. When X happens,

THEN

> > we use 8 planets. THUS, we use 7 in some and 8 in some " .

> > >

> > > As you said, it is obvious when X happens that 8 are to be

used.

> > However, it is also fair to conclude that 7 are used when X does

not

> > happen.

> > >

> > > This would be a fair conclusion normally. Moreover, the use of

the

> > word " evam " seals it here.

> > >

> > > The word " evam " means " thus " or " in this manner " or " like

this " . By

> > using this word, he is indicating that what he has said before is

> > sufficient to see when to use 7 and when to use 8. It implies

that

> > there is no other guideline and *this is how* we figure out. If

there

> > is some additional guideline to choose between 7 vs 8, the

> > word " evam " would not have been used. Thus, one can reject the

notion

> > that there are more unspoken crtiteria.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Narasimha

> > > -------------------------------

--

> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself:

http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> > > Spirituality:

> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> > > -------------------------------

--

> > >

> > > -

> > > Sanjay Prabhakaran

> > > sjc-guru

> > > Cc: sohamsa ; vedic-

astrology ;

> > ; sjcBoston

> > > Tuesday, October 28, 2008 2:20 AM

> > > Re: [sjc-guru] Parasara on Chara Karakas: An

Independent

> > Interpretation

> > >

> > >

> > > || Om Gurave Namah ||

> > >

> > > Dear Narasimhaji,

> > >

> > > I had a thought about the first few stanzas,

> > >

> > >

> > > Ch. 32. Karakatwas of the Grahas

> > > athA.ahaM sampravaxyAmi grahAnAtmAdikArakAn.h |

> > >

> > > saptaravyAdishanyantAn.h rAhvantAn.h vA.ashhTasaMkhyakAn.h ||

1||

> > >

> > > aMshaiH samaugnahau dvau ched.hrAhvantan.h chintayet.h tadA |

> > >

> > > saptaiva kArakAnevaM kechidashhTau prachaxate || 2||

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > This can be translated literally as: " Now I am speaking about

> > seven planets from Sun to Saturn or eight planets upto Rahu,

> > > acting as the significators of self etc. If two planets are

equal

> > by degrees, then planets upto Rahu should be thought of.

> > > Thus, only seven significators [in some] and eight in some

are

> > considered. "

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > This may also mean that

> > >

> > > USE Rahu IF there is two planets in same degrees, " aMshaiH

> > samaugnahau dvau ched.hrAhvantan.h chintayet.h tadA | "

> > >

> > > But this may not mean that NOT TO USE EIGHT Kaarakas when

there

> > is no grahas in same Degress

> > >

> > >

> > > Let me put it this way

> > >

> > > SET 1 : USE Rahu when grahas in same degress 8 Kaaraka

systems.

> > >

> > > THE REMAINING SET : YOU can still use both 7 and 8 kaarakas.

> > >

> > > I hope I am bringing out my thoughts accurately. The stanza

> > never says " FOR THE REMAINING " USE ONLY 7 KAARAKAS.

> > >

> > >

> > > Warm Regards

> > > Sanjay P

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > 2008/10/23 Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@>

> > >

> > > Namaste friends,

> > >

> > > Here is the promised article on chara karakas. I have no

> > pretensions that I got it correct. But this is based on an honest

> > attempt to purge all preconceived notions from the mind and

approach

> > Parasara's verses with a fresh and unbiased mind.

> > >

> > > In my view, neither the 7 chara karaka school nor the 8

chara

> > karaka school got Parasara correct. Parasara taught that 7 chara

> > karakas should be used in some charts and 8 chara karakas in some

> > charts and clearly described when to use what.

> > >

> > > I am trying to share whatever I was able to understand by

> > reading Parasara's exposition on chara karakas with an open mind

and

> > then experimenting. If you think my interpretation has some worth

in

> > it, please use it, experiment, benefit and spread the knowledge.

If

> > not, just leave it.

> > >

> > > I have uploaded a detailed article on chara karakas on my

> > website. It describes the calculation with 16 examples, covering

> > various cases. Apart from defining chara karaka calculation, this

> > article also defines and uses a dasa called " Karaka dasa " that

was

> > taught by Parasara for the purpose of timing events using chara

> > karakas. Please download the following PDF file if interested:

> > >

> > > http://VedicAstrologer.org/articles/c_karaka.pdf

> > >

> > > If you find the article useful, please feel free to forward

> > this link to those who may be interested.

> > >

> > > Krishnaarpanamastu,

> > > Narasimha

> > > -------------------------

> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself:

http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself:

> > http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> > > Spirituality:

> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3):

http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows):

http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website:

http://www.SriJagannath.org

> > > -------------------------

>

>

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste Pradeep,

 

I just want to address the " kechit " thing that I have not addressed before.

 

> 1)It could be that they took ''Kechit'' ''as others opinion'' instead

> of ''other''.

 

The word kechit is what made some scholars come up with the " two schools " theory

(i.e. there are some people who use 7 and some who use 8).

 

Kechit means some. It can mean " some scholars " or " some charts " or " some

nativities " or any " some XYZ " . The line " saptaiva kaarakaanevam kechidaShTau

pracakShate " can be translated as " in this manner, some bring to light 7

significators and some 8 significators " .

 

It is normally valid to interpret this to suggest two schools of opinion.

However, that interpretation is totally illogical in this context. He has given

a horoscope-based criterion to choose when 8 are used and when 7 are used and

then said *in this manner* 8 are brought to light by some and 7 by some. If this

is referring to two schools of thought using 7 karakas in all charts and using 8

karakas in all charts, what is the criterion on 2 planets in the same degree

doing and what does " in this manner " mean? In this context, kechit cannot mean

" some scholars " . He is saying " in this manner, some nativities (charts) bring to

light 7 karakas and some 8 karakas " .

 

Please note that the word kechit is avoided in the corresponding vriddha karika

verse that gives the same horoscopic criterion to teach the use of 7 karakas in

some charts and 8 in some. Also there is an alternate verse quoted from another

version of BPHS by Ajit Krishnan that gives a different verse with the same

meaning but avoiding kechit. Moreover, I find it very hard to believe that a

maharshi would say " some use 7. Some use 8. Do as you wish " .

 

Without a question, Parasara is clearly teaching that 7 karakas are used in some

charts and 8 karakas in some charts and clearly describing when to use what. The

choice is based on two planets being in the same degree.

 

* * *

 

Though it is the best I can do now, my interpretation of BPHS may be imperfect

in cases where two planets are in the same degree and 8 planets are used. But,

in cases where all planets are in different degrees and 7 planets are used, I am

confident of what I taught. Please do give a try to Karaka dasa.

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

 

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

Spirituality:

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

 

[Guest guest]

Namaste Pradeep,

 

I just want to address the " kechit " thing that I have not addressed before.

 

> 1)It could be that they took ''Kechit'' ''as others opinion'' instead

> of ''other''.

 

The word kechit is what made some scholars come up with the " two schools " theory

(i.e. there are some people who use 7 and some who use 8).

 

Kechit means some. It can mean " some scholars " or " some charts " or " some

nativities " or any " some XYZ " . The line " saptaiva kaarakaanevam kechidaShTau

pracakShate " can be translated as " in this manner, some bring to light 7

significators and some 8 significators " .

 

It is normally valid to interpret this to suggest two schools of opinion.

However, that interpretation is totally illogical in this context. He has given

a horoscope-based criterion to choose when 8 are used and when 7 are used and

then said *in this manner* 8 are brought to light by some and 7 by some. If this

is referring to two schools of thought using 7 karakas in all charts and using 8

karakas in all charts, what is the criterion on 2 planets in the same degree

doing and what does " in this manner " mean? In this context, kechit cannot mean

" some scholars " . He is saying " in this manner, some nativities (charts) bring to

light 7 karakas and some 8 karakas " .

 

Please note that the word kechit is avoided in the corresponding vriddha karika

verse that gives the same horoscopic criterion to teach the use of 7 karakas in

some charts and 8 in some. Also there is an alternate verse quoted from another

version of BPHS by Ajit Krishnan that gives a different verse with the same

meaning but avoiding kechit. Moreover, I find it very hard to believe that a

maharshi would say " some use 7. Some use 8. Do as you wish " .

 

Without a question, Parasara is clearly teaching that 7 karakas are used in some

charts and 8 karakas in some charts and clearly describing when to use what. The

choice is based on two planets being in the same degree.

 

* * *

 

Though it is the best I can do now, my interpretation of BPHS may be imperfect

in cases where two planets are in the same degree and 8 planets are used. But,

in cases where all planets are in different degrees and 7 planets are used, I am

confident of what I taught. Please do give a try to Karaka dasa.

 

Best regards,

Narasimha

 

Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

Spirituality:

Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

 

[Guest guest]

Dear Narsimha ji Namaste

 

 

Here in, for the first time, I think you are coming up with

discussions on the words used in the verses. Your translation of the

said verse previously was different than this one. That is why I was

expecting a word-by-word translation by you of the verses.

 

Kechid and Prachakshate

 

How can Kechid be some? or some XYZ? Basically as far as I know the

root word is " KIM " which means Who and " Ke " is its Bahuvachan in

Prathama in Masculine gender. When this sarvanam is attached with

Anvyaya like " chit " it becomes Kechit. If we consider that Parashara

meant was " horoscope " and not the person then it should have been in

neuter gender. In the neuter gender form KIM would become Kani in

Bahuvachan. Ke in neuter gender is dvivachan. So by saying Ke,

parashara is unambiguously qualifying 1)Masculine Gender 2)Plural .

Since Horoscope word can not be in Masculine gender it can not be

qualified because of kechid under any circumstances.

 

Having said this, we have to then see next word Prachakshate.

 

The word " Pra+chaksha+te " chaksha means seen,observe,tell and is

Anmanepadi in nature. Chaksha means to see and with 'Pra' it

means " to tell(whatever was seen). The word 'te' is bahuvachan

prathama of the root word 'Tat' in Masculine gender.So that word

clearly indicates " telling by people (as seen by them) " .

 

We see that both the words(Kechid & Prachakshate) do not allow us to

take " Horoscopes " . SO KechidAsthaou Prachakshate " clearly means " Some

people tell to consider 8 " or " Some times 8 are taken is also seen "

 

Now coming to the first part of the verse.

 

" Sapteva karaknevam " It means " In this way, only seven Karaks(to be

considered) " . Together the complete translation of the verse will be

 

" In this way, only seven Karaks(to be considered) but some people

tell to consider 8 karaks "

 

Now coming to your questions what is the criterion on 2 planets in

the same degree doing and what does " in this manner " mean?

 

I think I will attempt these questions later once we agree on Kechid

and Prachakshate.

 

 

Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.

 

Please do not add Ji after my name. I dont like to address old

friends with Ji!

 

 

Prabodh Vekhande

Jai Jai Shankar

Har Har Shankar

 

 

 

 

sohamsa , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

>

> Namaste Pradeep,

>

> I just want to address the " kechit " thing that I have not addressed

before.

>

> > 1)It could be that they took ''Kechit'' ''as others opinion''

instead

> > of ''other''.

>

> The word kechit is what made some scholars come up with the " two

schools " theory (i.e. there are some people who use 7 and some who

use 8).

>

> Kechit means some. It can mean " some scholars " or " some charts "

or " some nativities " or any " some XYZ " . The line " saptaiva

kaarakaanevam kechidaShTau pracakShate " can be translated as " in this

manner, some bring to light 7 significators and some 8 significators " .

>

> It is normally valid to interpret this to suggest two schools of

opinion. However, that interpretation is totally illogical in this

context. He has given a horoscope-based criterion to choose when 8

are used and when 7 are used and then said *in this manner* 8 are

brought to light by some and 7 by some. If this is referring to two

schools of thought using 7 karakas in all charts and using 8 karakas

in all charts, what is the criterion on 2 planets in the same degree

doing and what does " in this manner " mean? In this context, kechit

cannot mean " some scholars " . He is saying " in this manner, some

nativities (charts) bring to light 7 karakas and some 8 karakas " .

>

> Please note that the word kechit is avoided in the corresponding

vriddha karika verse that gives the same horoscopic criterion to

teach the use of 7 karakas in some charts and 8 in some. Also there

is an alternate verse quoted from another version of BPHS by Ajit

Krishnan that gives a different verse with the same meaning but

avoiding kechit. Moreover, I find it very hard to believe that a

maharshi would say " some use 7. Some use 8. Do as you wish " .

>

> Without a question, Parasara is clearly teaching that 7 karakas are

used in some charts and 8 karakas in some charts and clearly

describing when to use what. The choice is based on two planets being

in the same degree.

>

> * * *

>

> Though it is the best I can do now, my interpretation of BPHS may

be imperfect in cases where two planets are in the same degree and 8

planets are used. But, in cases where all planets are in different

degrees and 7 planets are used, I am confident of what I taught.

Please do give a try to Karaka dasa.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

>

> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> Spirituality:

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>

>

[Guest guest]

Namaste Prabodh,

 

> We see that both the words(Kechid & Prachakshate) do not allow us to > take "Horoscopes". SO KechidAsthaou Prachakshate" clearly means "Some > people tell to consider 8" or "Some times 8 are taken is also seen"

 

Not really. Kechid can certainly refer to "kechid jaataaH", which is masculine in gender and plural. Parasara uses the word "jaataH" in so many places in BPHS. The word prachakShate is not just "see", it also means "bring to light". Also, this way it gels well with the previous line. Moreover, there versions of this verse (e.g. vriddha karika) that totally avoid the kechid word and the resultant confusion.

 

Best regards,NarasimhaDo a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homamDo Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpanaSpirituality: Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.netFree Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.orgSri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

sohamsa , "Prabodh Vekhande" <amolmandar wrote:>> > Dear Narsimha ji Namaste> > > Here in, for the first time, I think you are coming up with > discussions on the words used in the verses. Your translation of the > said verse previously was different than this one. That is why I was > expecting a word-by-word translation by you of the verses. > > Kechid and Prachakshate > > How can Kechid be some? or some XYZ? Basically as far as I know the > root word is "KIM" which means Who and "Ke" is its Bahuvachan in > Prathama in Masculine gender. When this sarvanam is attached with > Anvyaya like "chit" it becomes Kechit. If we consider that Parashara > meant was "horoscope" and not the person then it should have been in > neuter gender. In the neuter gender form KIM would become Kani in > Bahuvachan. Ke in neuter gender is dvivachan. So by saying Ke, > parashara is unambiguously qualifying 1)Masculine Gender 2)Plural . > Since Horoscope word can not be in Masculine gender it can not be > qualified because of kechid under any circumstances. > > Having said this, we have to then see next word Prachakshate. > > The word "Pra+chaksha+te" chaksha means seen,observe,tell and is > Anmanepadi in nature. Chaksha means to see and with 'Pra' it > means "to tell(whatever was seen). The word 'te' is bahuvachan > prathama of the root word 'Tat' in Masculine gender.So that word > clearly indicates"telling by people (as seen by them)". > > We see that both the words(Kechid & Prachakshate) do not allow us to > take "Horoscopes". SO KechidAsthaou Prachakshate" clearly means "Some > people tell to consider 8" or "Some times 8 are taken is also seen"> > Now coming to the first part of the verse.> > "Sapteva karaknevam" It means "In this way, only seven Karaks(to be > considered)". Together the complete translation of the verse will be> > "In this way, only seven Karaks(to be considered) but some people > tell to consider 8 karaks"> > Now coming to your questions what is the criterion on 2 planets in > the same degree doing and what does "in this manner" mean?> > I think I will attempt these questions later once we agree on Kechid > and Prachakshate.> > > Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.> > Please do not add Ji after my name. I dont like to address old > friends with Ji!> > > Prabodh Vekhande> Jai Jai Shankar> Har Har Shankar> > > > > sohamsa , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:> >> > Namaste Pradeep,> > > > I just want to address the "kechit" thing that I have not addressed > before.> > > > > 1)It could be that they took ''Kechit'' ''as others opinion'' > instead > > > of ''other''. > > > > The word kechit is what made some scholars come up with the "two > schools" theory (i.e. there are some people who use 7 and some who > use 8).> > > > Kechit means some. It can mean "some scholars" or "some charts" > or "some nativities" or any "some XYZ". The line "saptaiva > kaarakaanevam kechidaShTau pracakShate" can be translated as "in this > manner, some bring to light 7 significators and some 8 significators".> > > > It is normally valid to interpret this to suggest two schools of > opinion. However, that interpretation is totally illogical in this > context. He has given a horoscope-based criterion to choose when 8 > are used and when 7 are used and then said *in this manner* 8 are > brought to light by some and 7 by some. If this is referring to two > schools of thought using 7 karakas in all charts and using 8 karakas > in all charts, what is the criterion on 2 planets in the same degree > doing and what does "in this manner" mean? In this context, kechit > cannot mean "some scholars". He is saying "in this manner, some > nativities (charts) bring to light 7 karakas and some 8 karakas".> > > > Please note that the word kechit is avoided in the corresponding > vriddha karika verse that gives the same horoscopic criterion to > teach the use of 7 karakas in some charts and 8 in some. Also there > is an alternate verse quoted from another version of BPHS by Ajit > Krishnan that gives a different verse with the same meaning but > avoiding kechit. Moreover, I find it very hard to believe that a > maharshi would say "some use 7. Some use 8. Do as you wish".> > > > Without a question, Parasara is clearly teaching that 7 karakas are > used in some charts and 8 karakas in some charts and clearly > describing when to use what. The choice is based on two planets being > in the same degree.> > > > * * *> > > > Though it is the best I can do now, my interpretation of BPHS may > be imperfect in cases where two planets are in the same degree and 8 > planets are used. But, in cases where all planets are in different > degrees and 7 planets are used, I am confident of what I taught. > Please do give a try to Karaka dasa.> > > > Best regards,> > Narasimha> > > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam> > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana> > Spirituality: > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org> >

[Guest guest]

Dear Narsimha Namaste

 

> Not really. Kechid can certainly refer to " kechid jaataaH " , which

>is masculine in gender and plural.

 

Parashara has always used jaataH word to mean newly born. Jata or

jatak means newly born(past tense). Kechid jataaH would mean some

newly borns. This way Prachakshate will mean Some newly borns tell!

 

>Also, this way it gels well with the previous line.

 

No this way it unnecessarily becomes complicated!

 

 

>Moreover, there versions of this verse (e.g. vriddha karika) that

>totally avoid the kechid word and the resultant confusion.

 

I have 4 BPHS and all of them give different versions of this verse.

If we have to go by this way then it would be fight to decide which

BPHS is more correct. To give example look at this verse from one of

the BPHS

 

" evam saptathavashtou syuH karakaH sammtaH satam "

 

Here is it has avoided kechid but as well avoided saptev. That

changes the whole meaning. Is it not?

Can you put vriddha karika in file section? It will help me to read

and translate a fresh.

 

Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.

 

Prabodh Vekhande

Jai Jai Shankar

Har Har Shankar

 

 

 

 

sohamsa , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr

wrote:

>

> Namaste Prabodh,

>

> > We see that both the words(Kechid & Prachakshate) do not allow us

to

> > take " Horoscopes " . SO KechidAsthaou Prachakshate " clearly

means " Some

> > people tell to consider 8 " or " Some times 8 are taken is also

seen "

>

> Not really. Kechid can certainly refer to " kechid jaataaH " , which

is masculine in gender and plural. Parasara uses the word " jaataH " in

so many places in BPHS. The word prachakShate is not just " see " , it

also means " bring to light " . Also, this way it gels well with the

previous line. Moreover, there versions of this verse (e.g. vriddha

karika) that totally avoid the kechid word and the resultant

confusion.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

>

> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> Spirituality:

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>

>

> sohamsa , " Prabodh Vekhande " <amolmandar@>

wrote:

> >

> >

> > Dear Narsimha ji Namaste

> >

> >

> > Here in, for the first time, I think you are coming up with

> > discussions on the words used in the verses. Your translation of

the

> > said verse previously was different than this one. That is why I

was

> > expecting a word-by-word translation by you of the verses.

> >

> > Kechid and Prachakshate

> >

> > How can Kechid be some? or some XYZ? Basically as far as I know

the

> > root word is " KIM " which means Who and " Ke " is its Bahuvachan in

> > Prathama in Masculine gender. When this sarvanam is attached with

> > Anvyaya like " chit " it becomes Kechit. If we consider that

Parashara

> > meant was " horoscope " and not the person then it should have been

in

> > neuter gender. In the neuter gender form KIM would become Kani in

> > Bahuvachan. Ke in neuter gender is dvivachan. So by saying Ke,

> > parashara is unambiguously qualifying 1)Masculine Gender 2)

Plural .

> > Since Horoscope word can not be in Masculine gender it can not be

> > qualified because of kechid under any circumstances.

> >

> > Having said this, we have to then see next word Prachakshate.

> >

> > The word " Pra+chaksha+te " chaksha means seen,observe,tell and is

> > Anmanepadi in nature. Chaksha means to see and with 'Pra' it

> > means " to tell(whatever was seen). The word 'te' is bahuvachan

> > prathama of the root word 'Tat' in Masculine gender.So that word

> > clearly indicates " telling by people (as seen by them) " .

> >

> > We see that both the words(Kechid & Prachakshate) do not allow us

to

> > take " Horoscopes " . SO KechidAsthaou Prachakshate " clearly

means " Some

> > people tell to consider 8 " or " Some times 8 are taken is also

seen "

> >

> > Now coming to the first part of the verse.

> >

> > " Sapteva karaknevam " It means " In this way, only seven Karaks(to

be

> > considered) " . Together the complete translation of the verse will

be

> >

> > " In this way, only seven Karaks(to be considered) but some people

> > tell to consider 8 karaks "

> >

> > Now coming to your questions what is the criterion on 2 planets

in

> > the same degree doing and what does " in this manner " mean?

> >

> > I think I will attempt these questions later once we agree on

Kechid

> > and Prachakshate.

> >

> >

> > Thanks a lot for your Time and Space.

> >

> > Please do not add Ji after my name. I dont like to address old

> > friends with Ji!

> >

> >

> > Prabodh Vekhande

> > Jai Jai Shankar

> > Har Har Shankar

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > sohamsa , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Namaste Pradeep,

> > >

> > > I just want to address the " kechit " thing that I have not

addressed

> > before.

> > >

> > > > 1)It could be that they took ''Kechit'' ''as others opinion''

> > instead

> > > > of ''other''.

> > >

> > > The word kechit is what made some scholars come up with

the " two

> > schools " theory (i.e. there are some people who use 7 and some

who

> > use 8).

> > >

> > > Kechit means some. It can mean " some scholars " or " some charts "

> > or " some nativities " or any " some XYZ " . The line " saptaiva

> > kaarakaanevam kechidaShTau pracakShate " can be translated as " in

this

> > manner, some bring to light 7 significators and some 8

significators " .

> > >

> > > It is normally valid to interpret this to suggest two schools

of

> > opinion. However, that interpretation is totally illogical in

this

> > context. He has given a horoscope-based criterion to choose when

8

> > are used and when 7 are used and then said *in this manner* 8 are

> > brought to light by some and 7 by some. If this is referring to

two

> > schools of thought using 7 karakas in all charts and using 8

karakas

> > in all charts, what is the criterion on 2 planets in the same

degree

> > doing and what does " in this manner " mean? In this context,

kechit

> > cannot mean " some scholars " . He is saying " in this manner, some

> > nativities (charts) bring to light 7 karakas and some 8 karakas " .

> > >

> > > Please note that the word kechit is avoided in the

corresponding

> > vriddha karika verse that gives the same horoscopic criterion to

> > teach the use of 7 karakas in some charts and 8 in some. Also

there

> > is an alternate verse quoted from another version of BPHS by Ajit

> > Krishnan that gives a different verse with the same meaning but

> > avoiding kechit. Moreover, I find it very hard to believe that a

> > maharshi would say " some use 7. Some use 8. Do as you wish " .

> > >

> > > Without a question, Parasara is clearly teaching that 7 karakas

are

> > used in some charts and 8 karakas in some charts and clearly

> > describing when to use what. The choice is based on two planets

being

> > in the same degree.

> > >

> > > * * *

> > >

> > > Though it is the best I can do now, my interpretation of BPHS

may

> > be imperfect in cases where two planets are in the same degree

and 8

> > planets are used. But, in cases where all planets are in

different

> > degrees and 7 planets are used, I am confident of what I taught.

> > Please do give a try to Karaka dasa.

> > >

> > > Best regards,

> > > Narasimha

> > > -------------------------------

--

> > > Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> > > Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself:

http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> > > Spirituality:

> > > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> > > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> > > -------------------------------

--

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Narasimha Ji Namaste

 

Thank you very much for your reply and clarifications.Sorry for the

delayed reply due to constraints. In the mean time there have been many

additional informative emails, for instance the ones from Shri

Shanmukha.

 

The following are my current understanding based on the text books,

emails and discussions that we have been having so far -

 

Basic Assumption : Kechit is not present or if present is not pointing

to different schools of thought.

 

1) It seems quite evident that Rahu is considered when two grahas are in

tie.

 

b) Whether Parashara is only talking about seven or eight PLANETS to be

considered as seven Karakas (ie SEVEn Karaka scheme).Eighth PLANET Rahu

is considered to take up the 7th karaka which goes un-assigned during

tie.(One Karaka is shared by two planets).

 

 

OR

 

c) Whether Muni is talking about Seven or Eight planets to be considered

as Seven or Eight Karakas(Eight Karaka system - during tie) is not

clear.

 

In my personal view it may not be eight Karakas: but eight planets which

can qualify for 7 Karakas.(Can you pls confirm if this is grammatically

possible or not).

 

The following are the concerns:-

 

i)It is not logical & fair to think that an additional or new ''eighth

Karaka- say Pitri Karaka'' has to be thought of only when two grahas are

in tie. Is it fair to think that ONLY those charts where two planets are

in tie will have the fortune to get an EXTRA karaka covering an EXTRA

area?. What do you think ?

 

ii)In my personal view Bhavas and Chara Karakas are related. Rajayoga

definition of : (LL + 5L or AK+ PK) is pointing to AK vis-a-vis 1st

house and Putra Karaka vis-a-vis 5th house link.

 

AmatyaKaraka is about the power/authority of 10th house which has to be

seen from the 2nd house(5th from 10th). Kautilyas political treatise is

named '' Arthashastra''. Artha is the very basis of power.Similarly 3rd

is Brathr, 4th is Matr, 5th is Putr, 6th is Gnati and 7th is Dara. 1 & 8

are bordered by Mars and marks beginning and end. 9/10/11/12 houses

lorded by Guru and Sani respectively are to be understood in a different

way.

 

iii) I agree to the point that 8 Karakas are mentioned in BPHS & Jaimini

Sutra. However as shri Shanmukha has rightly pointed out there are

difference in opinion on whether Matri and Putra are same etc. Non

uniformity regarding Pik among Vridha Karakas. Thus i would personally

prefer for seven Chara Atmakarakas - AK,AMK,BK,MK,PK,GK,DK.

 

iv) K.N.Raoji told me that he combines PiK with BK due to succesful

practical results. I have no classical proof. But to me there is another

reason - PiK is relating to 9th and is opposing(can aspect) 3rd house,

which is relating to BK.

 

Kindly verify.

 

a) Antya ,Madhya and lopa points are still open, needing further

explanations.

 

b) Please bear with me for not experimenting with practical examples.

Personally i feel a common logical understanding should be reached

before going for such experimentations.

 

 

Thanks in advance

Pradeep

 

 

sohamsa , Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

>

> Namaste Pradeep,

>

> I just want to address the " kechit " thing that I have not addressed

before.

>

> > 1)It could be that they took ''Kechit'' ''as others opinion''

instead

> > of ''other''.

>

> The word kechit is what made some scholars come up with the " two

schools " theory (i.e. there are some people who use 7 and some who use

8).

>

> Kechit means some. It can mean " some scholars " or " some charts " or

" some nativities " or any " some XYZ " . The line " saptaiva kaarakaanevam

kechidaShTau pracakShate " can be translated as " in this manner, some

bring to light 7 significators and some 8 significators " .

>

> It is normally valid to interpret this to suggest two schools of

opinion. However, that interpretation is totally illogical in this

context. He has given a horoscope-based criterion to choose when 8 are

used and when 7 are used and then said *in this manner* 8 are brought to

light by some and 7 by some. If this is referring to two schools of

thought using 7 karakas in all charts and using 8 karakas in all charts,

what is the criterion on 2 planets in the same degree doing and what

does " in this manner " mean? In this context, kechit cannot mean " some

scholars " . He is saying " in this manner, some nativities (charts) bring

to light 7 karakas and some 8 karakas " .

>

> Please note that the word kechit is avoided in the corresponding

vriddha karika verse that gives the same horoscopic criterion to teach

the use of 7 karakas in some charts and 8 in some. Also there is an

alternate verse quoted from another version of BPHS by Ajit Krishnan

that gives a different verse with the same meaning but avoiding kechit.

Moreover, I find it very hard to believe that a maharshi would say " some

use 7. Some use 8. Do as you wish " .

>

> Without a question, Parasara is clearly teaching that 7 karakas are

used in some charts and 8 karakas in some charts and clearly describing

when to use what. The choice is based on two planets being in the same

degree.

>

> * * *

>

> Though it is the best I can do now, my interpretation of BPHS may be

imperfect in cases where two planets are in the same degree and 8

planets are used. But, in cases where all planets are in different

degrees and 7 planets are used, I am confident of what I taught. Please

do give a try to Karaka dasa.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

>

> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> Spirituality:

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>

>

[Guest guest]

Dear Narasimha Ji Namaste

 

Thank you very much for your reply and clarifications.Sorry for the

delayed reply due to constraints. In the mean time there have been many

additional informative emails, for instance the ones from Shri

Shanmukha.

 

The following are my current understanding based on the text books,

emails and discussions that we have been having so far -

 

Basic Assumption : Kechit is not present or if present is not pointing

to different schools of thought.

 

1) It seems quite evident that Rahu is considered when two grahas are in

tie.

 

b) Whether Parashara is only talking about seven or eight PLANETS to be

considered as seven Karakas (ie SEVEn Karaka scheme).Eighth PLANET Rahu

is considered to take up the 7th karaka which goes un-assigned during

tie.(One Karaka is shared by two planets).

 

 

OR

 

c) Whether Muni is talking about Seven or Eight planets to be considered

as Seven or Eight Karakas(Eight Karaka system - during tie) is not

clear.

 

In my personal view it may not be eight Karakas: but eight planets which

can qualify for 7 Karakas.(Can you pls confirm if this is grammatically

possible or not).

 

The following are the concerns:-

 

i)It is not logical & fair to think that an additional or new ''eighth

Karaka- say Pitri Karaka'' has to be thought of only when two grahas are

in tie. Is it fair to think that ONLY those charts where two planets are

in tie will have the fortune to get an EXTRA karaka covering an EXTRA

area?. What do you think ?

 

ii)In my personal view Bhavas and Chara Karakas are related. Rajayoga

definition of : (LL + 5L or AK+ PK) is pointing to AK vis-a-vis 1st

house and Putra Karaka vis-a-vis 5th house link.

 

AmatyaKaraka is about the power/authority of 10th house which has to be

seen from the 2nd house(5th from 10th). Kautilyas political treatise is

named '' Arthashastra''. Artha is the very basis of power.Similarly 3rd

is Brathr, 4th is Matr, 5th is Putr, 6th is Gnati and 7th is Dara. 1 & 8

are bordered by Mars and marks beginning and end. 9/10/11/12 houses

lorded by Guru and Sani respectively are to be understood in a different

way.

 

iii) I agree to the point that 8 Karakas are mentioned in BPHS & Jaimini

Sutra. However as shri Shanmukha has rightly pointed out there are

difference in opinion on whether Matri and Putra are same etc. Non

uniformity regarding Pik among Vridha Karakas. Thus i would personally

prefer for seven Chara Atmakarakas - AK,AMK,BK,MK,PK,GK,DK.

 

iv) K.N.Raoji told me that he combines PiK with BK due to succesful

practical results. I have no classical proof. But to me there is another

reason - PiK is relating to 9th and is opposing(can aspect) 3rd house,

which is relating to BK.

 

Kindly verify.

 

a) Antya ,Madhya and lopa points are still open, needing further

explanations.

 

b) Please bear with me for not experimenting with practical examples.

Personally i feel a common logical understanding should be reached

before going for such experimentations.

 

 

Thanks in advance

Pradeep

 

, Narasimha PVR Rao <pvr wrote:

>

> Namaste Pradeep,

>

> I just want to address the " kechit " thing that I have not addressed

before.

>

> > 1)It could be that they took ''Kechit'' ''as others opinion''

instead

> > of ''other''.

>

> The word kechit is what made some scholars come up with the " two

schools " theory (i.e. there are some people who use 7 and some who use

8).

>

> Kechit means some. It can mean " some scholars " or " some charts " or

" some nativities " or any " some XYZ " . The line " saptaiva kaarakaanevam

kechidaShTau pracakShate " can be translated as " in this manner, some

bring to light 7 significators and some 8 significators " .

>

> It is normally valid to interpret this to suggest two schools of

opinion. However, that interpretation is totally illogical in this

context. He has given a horoscope-based criterion to choose when 8 are

used and when 7 are used and then said *in this manner* 8 are brought to

light by some and 7 by some. If this is referring to two schools of

thought using 7 karakas in all charts and using 8 karakas in all charts,

what is the criterion on 2 planets in the same degree doing and what

does " in this manner " mean? In this context, kechit cannot mean " some

scholars " . He is saying " in this manner, some nativities (charts) bring

to light 7 karakas and some 8 karakas " .

>

> Please note that the word kechit is avoided in the corresponding

vriddha karika verse that gives the same horoscopic criterion to teach

the use of 7 karakas in some charts and 8 in some. Also there is an

alternate verse quoted from another version of BPHS by Ajit Krishnan

that gives a different verse with the same meaning but avoiding kechit.

Moreover, I find it very hard to believe that a maharshi would say " some

use 7. Some use 8. Do as you wish " .

>

> Without a question, Parasara is clearly teaching that 7 karakas are

used in some charts and 8 karakas in some charts and clearly describing

when to use what. The choice is based on two planets being in the same

degree.

>

> * * *

>

> Though it is the best I can do now, my interpretation of BPHS may be

imperfect in cases where two planets are in the same degree and 8

planets are used. But, in cases where all planets are in different

degrees and 7 planets are used, I am confident of what I taught. Please

do give a try to Karaka dasa.

>

> Best regards,

> Narasimha

>

> Do a Short Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> Do Pitri Tarpanas Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/tarpana

> Spirituality:

> Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

>

>