Debilitation of 5th lord - to Bhaskar ji

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Dear Bhaskar ji,

 

As I made my point earlier, I am not raising this question with reference to

the chart being discused in this thread. Hence, the question of lagna, who is

badhaka or 5th lord are not important to me.

 

Irrespective of what is the lagna of the chart, is it correct to say that both

Mars (in Cancer) and Moon (in Scorpio) don't behave as debilitated planets (as a

result of parivartana)?

 

In my observation I have found that the answer to the above question to be

YES. I want to know if learned people also share the same view. Please give your

opinion by treating this as a generic question without considering the

particular chart being analysed.

 

Regards,

Krishna

 

Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish wrote:

 

Dear Krishnaji,

 

Apart from the debilitation of

the 5th lord, and the badhakasthanadhipati

placed in the 5th house, Moon acquires

a bad Guna by being placed in Anuradha

nakshatra owned by Saturn. And what

about Saturn ? it acquires

a highly malefic bad Guna, by being

placed in mrigasira constellation

owned by Mars.

 

At the most as per my view,

this native will be given to

meditation in fits and starts,

and abrupt closures, and may

be able to gain some favour of

a base female ( lower level)

deity, in time to come which on

the contrary may prove harmful to

him, if he is not able to continue

being good person , after this

favour received,because his

9th house is again afflicted

due to a debilitated Moon placed

there, and a malefic Saturn

aspecting it in full glory.

 

But there is only one saving

grace here, which i will not

talk of now, but just give a

clue, Ketu.

 

best wishes,

Bhaskar.

 

, " Bhaskar " <bhaskar_jyotish

wrote:

>

> Dear Krishnaji,

>

> Sorry to enter this thread.

> First of all I am not of the

> favour that in this case both

> houses have

> exchanged their Lords. i would

> treat normally Mars.he

> 5th House as per my little

> knowledge.

> Next even if any parivartana is

> cited and allowed in above case,

> keeping ketu as the 5th lord,I would

> consider it as a most ordinary

> parivartana, and not any thing

> beyond it.

>

> Any powerful parivartana Yoga must

> be recognised, as per my knowledge,

> only if the exchange is in terms of

> constellation,ie. if the 2 planets are

> placed in each others constellation,

> which is not so, in this case.

> To make it a powerful exchange

> Moon should have been in nakshatra

> of Mars.

>

> Further, If I am not mistaken Budha

> is placed in the 5th House, and Budha

> is considered to be a Badhaksthandhipati,

> so how will it ncrease the potential of the

> 5th house, I am unable to understand.

> It must on the contrary produce badhas.

>

> I do not view the exchange of Moon as a

> significant one.

>

> This is of course my personal view,

> and one is free to disagree.

>

> regards,

> bhaskar.

>

>

>

>

> , Krishnamurthy Seetharama

> <krishna_1998@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Narasimha,

> >

> > Please correct me if I make a wrong astrological statement

below.

> >

> > " In my opinion, when an exchange takes place, the planets in

> parivartana behave as if they are in their own signs (as a

resultant

> of exchange).

> >

> > Hence, in this particular case, though Moon is placed in the

> sign of debilitation, it does not behave like a debilitated planet

> due to parivartana and behaves as if it is placed in its own sign. "

> >

> > I am looking forward to your opinion on the baove statement.

> >

> > Regards,

> > Krishna

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao " <pvr@> wrote:

> > Namaste friends,

> >

> > > It appears debilitated planets in trines are more desirable to

> anything

> > > else. Is this a new SJC rule P.V.R. Rao ji ??

> > >

> > > Debilitated planets in other horoscopes is bad, but in SJC

> selected

> > > horoscopes which includes the subject of discussion

hororscope,

> it is

> > > all gives good results ??

> > >

> > > Do we need to redefine the astro_classics to include the new

> findings,

> > > PVR Raoji ??

> > >

> > > Kindly do consider putting this " famous chart " as a default

> hororscopes

> > > in all your future releases of JHORA with your analysis -

> Probably one

> > > day realization may dawn upon you.

> > >

> > > it would be very sad day to know a person of your

> > > nature, should fall prey to his loopsided spirituality,

further,

> you

> > > should also partake some of his bad karma for the same reason.

> >

> > I never said debilitation is " more desirable " . I said the

exchange

> between 5th and 9th lords is a nice yoga here, *despite* the

> debilitation of the 5th lord. When the 5th and 9th lords exchange

> houses and lagna lord is strong, it is a nice raja yoga. Apart

from

> rasi, I have examined navamsa and vimsamsa also and given the

> reasoning behind my views.

> >

> > In fact, Jaimini mentions exalted and debilitated planets in the

> same breath, in the aphorism " tasminnuchche neeche va sreemantah " .

> Debilitation need not be terrible always. Jyotisha is a much

deeper

> ocean than the shallow waters of thumbrules.

> >

> > Saying that this native cannot even meditate properly because

the

> 5th lord is debilitated is questionable. Though 5th lord Moon is

> debilitated, he is in devata sthana (9th) with an exchange with

the

> 9th lord. Pachaka sthana from 5th lord Moon contains the 12th lord

> of detachment, Saturn. Bodhaka sthana from Moon contains Ketu,

> karaka for detachment. Thus, planets associated with detachment

have

> a positive influence on 5th lord and it is excellent for mantra

> sadhana. Moon is naisargika pachaka for 8th lord Venus and here he

> is in bodhaka sthana from Venus. Thus, Moon has the positive

> influence on 8th lord, who shows occult experiences.

> >

> > Apart from the vimsamsa related points I mentioned earlier, the

> above pachakadi sambandhas also strengthen 5th lord Moon a lot. To

> say that this native cannot even meditate properly just because of

> 5th lord's debilitation is questionable. In my judgment, the

native

> is quite capable of meditating with a very high level of focus and

> detachment and get occult experiences.

> >

> > * * *

> >

> > IMHO, predicting terrible results of great specificity just

based

> on the debilitation of 5th lord is unwise.

> >

> > Many great spiritual giants had debilitated planets. Aurobindo

> Ghose had the 5th lord debilitated in a trine. Aurobindo

experienced

> the highest truths of this creation directly and his commentaries

on

> Veda and Upanidhad are the most inspired I have ever read. Swami

> Sivananda of Hrishikesh, founder of Divine Life Society, also had

> the 5th lord debilitated in a trine and afflicted by Saturn and

> Rahu. He had another debilitated planet also and no exalted

planets.

> He is one of the very few yogis to have experienced nirvikalpa

> samadhi in the last century.

> >

> > Debilitation of a planet or debilitation of the 5th lord alone

> cannot be a criterion for giving so many terrible results.

> >

> > Affliction of 5th lord by Neptune was also mentioned before.

First

> of all, Neptune is not mentioned in any Jyotish classics. Even if

we

> accept outer planets, Swami Chandrasekhara Saraswati, who was like

> Lord Shiva Himself, had the 5th lord afflicted by Neptune within a

> couple of degrees. Swami Jayendra Saraswati, current chief pontiff

> of Kanchi mutt, also has Neptune afflicting the 5th lord within a

> few degrees.

> >

> > Moon being in Saturn's star and being aspected by Saturn were

also

> mentioned. Well, Swami Chandrasekhara Saraswati also had Moon in

> Saturn's nakshatra (same one - Anuradha) and Saturn aspected him.

So

> what? Saturn's strong influence eventually gives detachment.

> >

> > I respect you guys for your views, but these extreme views are

> based on questionable principles. When I provide an alternative

view

> and provide the astrological reasoning, there are attempts being

> made to attack and/or bully me. This is unfortunate and

unscholarly.

> >

> > This is a public forum where different views are aired. If you

> absolutely hate somebody and want to believe that his horoscope

> justifies your extreme views on him, that is fine. You are

entitled

> to your views. But please do not attack and bully those who

disagree

> with you and provide a different viewpoint. We can disagree in a

> respectful and civil manner.

> >

> > Best regards,

> > Narasimha

> > -------------------------

> > Do Ganapathi Homam Yourself: http://www.VedicAstrologer.org/homam

> > Spirituality:

> > Free Jyotish lessons (MP3): http://vedicastro.home.comcast.net

> > Free Jyotish software (Windows): http://www.VedicAstrologer.org

> > Sri Jagannath Centre (SJC) website: http://www.SriJagannath.org

> > -------------------------

> >

> > , " sreeram srinivas "

> <sreeram64@> wrote:

> > >

> > >

> > > Dear P.V.R. Rao ji,

> > >

> > > Kindly accept my thanks to you for the upgraded version of

JHora.

> > >

> > > Feel, you are apparently being invited by somebody to defend

> himself, is

> > > using your good name . Those who know this person closely,

would

> NOT

> > > agree to your astro_analysis which are quite OFF mark, thanks

to

> your

> > > carefully worded message, else, it would surely disappointed

the

> > > general users of JHORA that a person behind such software, can

> make so

> > > many " incorrect predictions " !!

> > >

> > > It appears debilitated planets in trines are more desirable to

> anything

> > > else. Is this a new SJC rule P.V.R. Rao ji ??

> > >

> > > Debilitated planets in other horoscopes is bad, but in SJC

> selected

> > > horoscopes which includes the subject of discussion

hororscope,

> it is

> > > all gives good results ??

> > >

> > > Do we need to redefine the astro_classics to include the new

> findings,

> > > PVR Raoji ??

> > >

> > > Kindly do consider putting this " famous chart " as a default

> hororscopes

> > > in all your future releases of JHORA with your analysis -

> Probably one

> > > day realization may dawn upon you.

> > >

> > > If you are scared that he would tarnish your image with his

> expletives

> > > is a reason for your rushing to his support, as he is often

seen

> in

> > > every group, then you have my assurance, that I will stand by

you

> > > against this man with all my other friends and ammunition.

> > >

> > > Else, should we think or conclude that, you are really

defending

> this

> > > " fallen person " , it would be very sad day to know a person of

> your

> > > nature, should fall prey to his loopsided spirituality,

further,

> you

> > > should also partake some of his bad karma for the same reason.

> > >

> > > Naramsimha ji, you are nice person with some virtuous

qualities,

> use

> > > them to side with goodness, but not for the fallen soul.

> Probably you

> > > do not know anything of this person's behavior or you are all

> out to

> > > make him and accord your SJC Guru-doom ship to him in the

> nearest future

> > > !!

> > >

> > > Narasimhaji, I still have respect for you and your

contribution

> to the

> > > software and your sincerity shown in certain matters through

> various

> > > debates, but your blind support in this case, without asking,

> makes me

> > > to re-think of the image that I have long carried.

> > >

> > > It is never too late for anything....I would personally

request

> you to

> > > seriously rethink on above.

> > >

> > > With regards,

> > >

> > > Sreeram_Srinivas

> > >

> > > , " Narasimha P.V.R. Rao "

> > > > pvr@ wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Namaste friends,

> > > > >

> > > > > I came to this list after a long time and checked the

latest

> > > > messages. This topic attracted me - I thought I would find

> useful

> > > > data.

> > > > >

> > > > > Having opened the mail, I want to respond astrologically

on

> this

> > > > data. I realize that there may be some unpleasant dealings

> between

> > > > some people on this list and there may be some background to

> this

> > > > that I am unaware of. However, as an astrologer given a

chart,

> I

> > > > want to say a few words on this chart. Please forgive me if

> you do

> > > > not welcome my comments.

> > > > >

> > > > > In my judgment, the native is not " mentally deranged " . He

> may be

> > > > very very fiery and unreasonably short-tempered, but I see

no

> mental

> > > > derangement and hallucinations as mentioned below.

> > > > >

> > > > > Lagna and Moon are both very closely aspected by Mars (8th

> and 4th

> > > > aspects respectively). Mars is with another fiery planet Sun

> in a

> > > > fiery sign (Leo). Such Mars aspecting lagna and Moon closely

> makes

> > > > him quite short-tempered and haughty. Mars aspects Moon and

> lagna in

> > > > trimsamsa (D-30) also. D-30 is the chart that shows one's

> evils that

> > > > operate at the sub-conscious plane and throws light on the

> paapa

> > > > purusha (personified sin) that lives within one.

> > > > >

> > > > > This combination is bad and makes him very hot and perhaps

> over

> > > > the top. It shows a lot of inbuilt anger that needs to be

> overcome.

> > > > However, Jupiter owns lagna and occupies a quadrant - his

> > > > moolatrikona. He has rasi drishti as well as 3/4th graha

> drishti on

> > > > lagna. That is the savior. Also, navamsa lagna lord is

exalted

> in

> > > > 9th in navamsa. These factors give basic strength to the

chart.

> > > > >

> > > > > I cannot understand why debilitated 5th lord Moon in 9th

is

> so

> > > > terrible. It is actually good to have the 9th lord in 5th

> (even if

> > > > in debility). Though Moon is debilitated, he has neecha

> bhanga. The

> > > > exchange between 9th lord Ketu and 5th lord Moon is quite

good

> for

> > > > spiritual progress. The placement of devatapada (A9) and

> mantrapada

> > > > (A5) in a lagna owned by Jupiter, with Jupiter aspecting

them,

> is a

> > > > great blessing in one's spiritual pursuit. Padas (arudha

> padas) are

> > > > to bhavas (houses) what words (padas) are to

meanings/feelings

> > > > (bhavas). While feelings are intangible, the words used to

> express

> > > > them are tangible. The houses can show intangible matters,

> while

> > > > their arudha padas show tangible articles related to them.

> Arudha

> > > > padas are very important.

> > > > >

> > > > > Lagna is in 8th from chara atmakaraka in navamsa and that

is

> good

> > > > for spiritual progress. In vimsamsa (D-20), the chart of

> spiritual

> > > > evolution, lagna lord Jupiter is in the 12th house of

> liberation.

> > > > The lord of devata/guru sthana (9th), Sun, is in a friendly

> sign in

> > > > lagna. That is excellent. The 5th house of mantra is strong

> with

> > > > nodes. Chandra Mangala yoga in the 6th house of siddhis

given

> by the

> > > > 8th lord of occult experiences and 12th lord of liberation is

> > > > conducive to mystical experiences and visions.

> > > > >

> > > > > With this rasi, navamsa, trimsamsa and vimsamsa, I do not

> see a

> > > > mentally deranged person with hallucinations, but a person

of

> some

> > > > spiritual progress, mystical experiences and visions.

> > > > >

> > > > > Of course, my analysis can only be as good as my knowledge

> and it

> > > > is possible that I erred in my analysis and judgment. But I

am

> > > > stating what I honestly feel after looking at this chart.

> > > > >

> > > > > * * *

> > > > >

> > > > > Lalit, because you discussed your chart publicly, I want

to

> offer

> > > > a couple of comments. Hoping that you will tolerate some

> criticism

> > > > from me, I will give some honest advice. Please bear with me.

> > > > >

> > > > > You have a nice chart. Marriage is difficult with upapada

> lagna in

> > > > Taurus, Saturn in it and 2nd lord in 3rd with Ketu. In

> navamsa, 7th

> > > > lord is in marana karaka sthana. It is difficult to get

> married.

> > > > Fasting on Fridays and praying to Lalita Tripurasundari at

the

> end

> > > > of the day before breaking the fast is recommended for

relief.

> > > > >

> > > > > You have Saraswati yoga in rasi chart and dhanur guru in

> lagna in

> > > > D-24 (chart of learning). AK is in 11th house in rasi chart.

> You

> > > > will become a good astrologer in time. But please note that

> humility

> > > > is a great virtue. As you learn more, you will realize that

> this

> > > > subject is vast and one lifetime is insufficient to master

it.

> I

> > > > learnt Jyotish about 25 years back and spent a lot of my

time

> in the

> > > > last 15 years learning and researching Jyotish. Though I know

> > > > several topics within Jyotish reasonably well, I do know

that

> what I

> > > > know is much smaller than what is still there to learn. I am

> not

> > > > saying this to sound humble. I know it for a fact. I marvel

at

> the

> > > > mastery of Parasara as I discover newer things.

> > > > >

> > > > > Please continue to learn Jyotish from your gurus, but show

> some

> > > > humility and be less confrontational and dismissive of

others

> and

> > > > less arrogant. You will become a good astrologer with Her

> grace,

> > > > after you develop true humility.

> > > > >

> > > > > Spiritually, I am confident that you have had your share of

> > > > mystical experiences. However, I know some who made 1,000

> times more

> > > > progress and yet keep quiet mostly. You need to show some

> discretion

> > > > and keep your spiritual progress to yourself and not make

much

> noise

> > > > in the public. Do not go around touting things or giving the

> > > > impression of touting. Please realize that there is much

much

> more

> > > > to be experienced and it will come only when you develop more

> > > > discretion. You are destined for bigger things and please do

> not

> > > > stagnate where you are now.

> > > > >

> > > > > Praises and criticism are both Her forms. Happiness and

> sadness

> > > > are both Her forms. Friends and enemies are both Her forms.

> Learned

> > > > people and idiots are both Her forms. Knowledge and

ignorance

> are

> > > > both Her forms. Love Her in Her full glory. Overcome your

> anger and

> > > > short temper and fill your heart with pure love for Her and

> all of

> > > > Her different forms.

> > > > >

> > > > > Please let Pisces lagna and Dhanur Guru dominate your

> personality

> > > > and not Simha Mangala aspecting lagna. Let Saturn and Ketu

> > > > transiting on natal Mars shut down this aspect of your

> personality

> > > > for ever. So much is expected from you. Please live up to

your

> chart

> > > > (or atleast my judgment of it!). I sincerely hope that you

> overcome

> > > > your anger and hot nature, shine as a star in the Jyotish

> world and

> > > > also give direction to many spiritual seekers. You have it

in

> you.

> > > > >

> > > > > * * *

> > > > >

> > > > > I want to make one comment on siddhis, spiritual

experiences

> and

> > > > knowledge. These are not comments on anyone, but judt generic

> > > > comments on some sentiments I observed here.

> > > > >

> > > > > If someone has mystical experiences and visions, it does

not

> mean

> > > > that the person knows everything or is a perfect person.

While

> > > > Brahman (field of singularity) is One, the field of duality

> (also

> > > > known as Maayaa) is infinite and it is impossible to master

> it. If

> > > > She gives someone access to some aspects of the Maayaa that

> other

> > > > people do not have access to, She may do it because of some

> reason.

> > > > Each being has a specific role to play and given the

resources

> > > > needed for playing that role. Some beings play their role

> without

> > > > ego and with a complete sense of surrender and leave the

stage

> > > > calmly. Some beings have ego, take their role

> and " achievements "

> > > > seriously and think that *they* are doing things and make

more

> > > > noise. The latter type have more distance to go before

becoming

> > > > liberated. However, She needs those types too and may

> sometimes even

> > > > give more so-called siddhis to the latter type. Irrespective

of

> > > > which type one belongs to, the bottomline is that all the

> knowledge

> > > > and experience one has is Hers and given because of the role

> one has

> > > > to play. No more and no less.

> > > > >

> > > > > If a yogi has visions of a devata (deity) or other visions

or

> > > > other mystical experiences, it was made possible because

> he/she has

> > > > a role to play and those experiences are needed for that

role.

> It

> > > > absolutely does not mean that he/she is somehow great and

> whatever

> > > > he/she says is correct. One may master one aspect of maayaa

> and be

> > > > clueless on other aspects of maayaa. Astrology and other

> vedaangas

> > > > are a small part of this maayaa. Not everyone with some

> control over

> > > > some aspects of maayaa are masters of astrology.

> > > > >

> > > > > A true yogi neither craves for any siddhis nor does he

> reject them

> > > > when/if they come. Also, you cannot identify a true yogi from

> > > > his/her siddhis or other so-called achievements.

> > > > >

> > > > > Only maharishis are capable of understanding Maayaa in its

> > > > entirety. They have zero attachment and sense of doership.

> Their

> > > > egos are fully killed and hence they are able to be in sahaja

> > > > samadhi all the time, even when walking and talking. Thus,

they

> > > > understand Brahman as well as the entire field of duality

and

> how it

> > > > works. So they are masters of all subjects. But, we should

not

> > > > expect to find any maharshis in today's world. We can, of

> course,

> > > > expect to find a lot of advanced yogis who experience

various

> kinds

> > > > of mystical visions and yet have imperfect knowledge of many

> aspects

> > > > of maayaa.

> > > > >

> > > > > Sorry if you found my freewheeling 2 cents nonsensical.

> > > > >

> > > > > Best regards,

> > > > > Narasimha

> >

> >