Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 A small excerpt from the teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi: Question: Is there such a thing as free will? Sri Ramana Maharshi: Whose will is it? So long as there is the sense of doership, there is the sense of enjoyment and of individual will. But if this sense is lost through the practice of Vichara (self-enquiry), the divine will will act and guide the course of events. Fate is overcome by Jnana, Self-knowledge, which is beyond will and fate. Question: I can understand that the outstanding events in a man’s life, such as his country, nationality, family, career or profession, marriage, death, etc., are all predestined by his Karma, but can it be that all the details of his life, down to the minutest, have already been determined? Now, for instance, I put this fan that is in my hand down on the floor here. Can it be that it was already decided that on such and such a day, at such and such an hour, I should move the fan like this and put it down here? Sri Ramana Maharshi: Certainly. Whatever this body is to do and whatever experiences it is to pass through was already decided when it came into existence. Question: What becomes then of man’s freedom and responsibility for his actions? Sri Ramana Maharshi: The only freedom man has is to strive for and acquire the Jnana (knowledge) which will enable him not to identify himself with the body. The body will go through the actions rendered inevitable by Prarabdha and a man is free either to identify himself with the body and be attached to the fruits of its actions or to be detached from it and be a mere witness of its activities. Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ___ - " Krishnamurthy Seetharama " <krishna_1998 <jyotish-vidya > Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:44 PM Re: Article on Jyotish Dear Mrs. Wendy, You could be correct. However, after reading that paragraph again, I am unable to reach the same conclusion as you have. It could be my limitation to understand or comprehend what the sages have said. But, I will keep my efforts going and I will start believing what you have said once I am convinced. Regards, Krishna Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Dear Wendy Many Many Thanx for such a beautiful excerpt. Please share something beautiful like this with us. Regards Razen. jyotish-vidya , " Wendy Vasicek " <jyotishvidya wrote: > > A small excerpt from the teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi: > > Question: > Is there such a thing as free will? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: > Whose will is it? So long as there is the sense of doership, there is the > sense of enjoyment and of individual will. But if this sense is lost > through the practice of Vichara (self-enquiry), the divine will will act > and guide the course of events. Fate is overcome by Jnana, > Self-knowledge, which is beyond will and fate. > > Question: > I can understand that the outstanding events in a man’s life, such as his > country, nationality, family, career or profession, marriage, death, > etc., are all predestined by his Karma, but can it be that all the > details of his life, down to the minutest, have already been determined? > Now, for instance, I put this fan that is in my hand down on the floor > here. Can it be that it was already decided that on such and such a day, > at such and such an hour, I should move the fan like this and put it down > here? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: > Certainly. Whatever this body is to do and whatever experiences it is to > pass through was already decided when it came into existence. > > Question: > What becomes then of man’s freedom and responsibility for his actions? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: > The only freedom man has is to strive for and acquire the Jnana > (knowledge) which will enable him not to identify himself with the body. > The body will go through the actions rendered inevitable by Prarabdha and > a man is free either to identify himself with the body and be attached to > the fruits of its actions or to be detached from it and be a mere witness > of its activities. > > Best Wishes, > Mrs. Wendy > http://JyotishVidya.com > ___ > > > - > " Krishnamurthy Seetharama " <krishna_1998 > <jyotish-vidya > > Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:44 PM > Re: Article on Jyotish > > > Dear Mrs. Wendy, > > You could be correct. However, after reading that paragraph again, I am > unable to reach the same conclusion as you have. It could be my > limitation to understand or comprehend what the sages have said. But, I > will keep my efforts going and I will start believing what you have said > once I am convinced. > > Regards, > Krishna > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 OK. It is very clear that there are two distinct schools of though on this subject, as in the case of many other aspects of life where no one can provide conclusive evidence. We make many choices in life and leaning towards a particular school of thought is just one of them. If anyone is interested, could look into this article for more about karmas of different intensities and their place in Jyotish: http://www.bava.org/pages/lordships.html Regards, Krishna --- On Wed, 12/11/08, Wendy Vasicek <jyotishvidya wrote: Wendy Vasicek <jyotishvidya Karma and Destiny: Sri Ramana Maharshi jyotish-vidya Wednesday, 12 November, 2008, 6:33 PM A small excerpt from the teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi: Question: Is there such a thing as free will? Sri Ramana Maharshi: Whose will is it? So long as there is the sense of doership, there is the sense of enjoyment and of individual will. But if this sense is lost through the practice of Vichara (self-enquiry) , the divine will will act and guide the course of events. Fate is overcome by Jnana, Self-knowledge, which is beyond will and fate. Question: I can understand that the outstanding events in a man’s life, such as his country, nationality, family, career or profession, marriage, death, etc., are all predestined by his Karma, but can it be that all the details of his life, down to the minutest, have already been determined? Now, for instance, I put this fan that is in my hand down on the floor here. Can it be that it was already decided that on such and such a day, at such and such an hour, I should move the fan like this and put it down here? Sri Ramana Maharshi: Certainly. Whatever this body is to do and whatever experiences it is to pass through was already decided when it came into existence. Question: What becomes then of man’s freedom and responsibility for his actions? Sri Ramana Maharshi: The only freedom man has is to strive for and acquire the Jnana (knowledge) which will enable him not to identify himself with the body. The body will go through the actions rendered inevitable by Prarabdha and a man is free either to identify himself with the body and be attached to the fruits of its actions or to be detached from it and be a mere witness of its activities. Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya .com ____________ _________ _________ _______ - " Krishnamurthy Seetharama " <krishna_1998@ > <jyotish-vidya> Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:44 PM Re: Article on Jyotish Dear Mrs. Wendy, You could be correct. However, after reading that paragraph again, I am unable to reach the same conclusion as you have. It could be my limitation to understand or comprehend what the sages have said. But, I will keep my efforts going and I will start believing what you have said once I am convinced. Regards, Krishna Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to http://messenger./invite/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Dear Razen, I'm pleased that you find Sri Ramana Maharshi's words as uplifting as I always have. No doubt there'll be many more opportunities to savour such pearls of wisdom :-) Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ___ - " razenonly " <razenonly <jyotish-vidya > Wednesday, November 12, 2008 11:26 PM Re: Karma and Destiny: Sri Ramana Maharshi Dear Wendy Many Many Thanx for such a beautiful excerpt. Please share something beautiful like this with us. Regards Razen. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 This veers from the direct discussion of astrology... This respected teacher is propounding the tattva of maya-vada, or at least of brahma-vada... which holds the state of individuality to be an inferior state of being. I do not belong to those schools of Vedanta, but to the Madhva sampradaya - whose fundamental thesis is that 1 - there is ignorance in individuality which is separate from godhead. 2 - there is knowledge in the destruction of that individuality 3 - there is perfection of knowledge in the subsequent re- establishment of individuality in intimate connection with godhead (acintya-bhed-abhed-tattva) There is ignorance of a different and very subtle type in the refusal of one's intimate connection with godhead and the instance upon a non- personal and homogenous undifferentiated state of being. Sri Ramana Maharsi was asked if there is free will, to which he answered that there is only divine will. I call upon the authority of my predecessors in the Brahma-Gaudiya-Madhva sampradaya for the right to respectfully state that this statement is a product of illusion. Eko bahu syam Anadamoya abhyaasat. " The one IS many because enjoyment and pleasure must be known, " states Vedanta. The individual wills are eternally distinct beings, and individual will is NOT an illusion. In Gita Krishna state " mamaivamsha jiva-loke, jiva-bhuta sanatanam " mam/eva/amsha = CERTAINLY my divisions jiva-loke = the multitudes of individuals jiva-bhuta = the individual beings sanatana = ETERNALLY ~ ~ ~ Next Sri Ramana Maharshi is asked if every minute detail of our life is determined by karma alone. Again with respect as the humble representative of the great Madva-Acarya I state that he has answered this question imperfectly. A better answer would be to point out the " chicken or the egg " nature of the question and clarify that freewill corrupted by ignorance (avidya) causes a person to act outside of his natural capacity as a part and parcel of godhead. In so doing he creates karma. That karma then increases his desire to behave similarly again. What came first, the desire or the action? Since it is a circular pattern there appears to be no starting point. But the real answer is that the origin of all karma is outside the circle, in the form of avidya or ignorance. ~ ~ ~ Finally Sri Ramana Maharshi is asked if everything is predetermined, why are we responsible for our actions? He answers that our only freewill is to quest for jnana to realize our difference from the material body. He does not explain why this is not also subject to his concept of predestination, and that is a great flaw. Furthermore the questioner is correct that karmic reaction accrues to the entity responsible for initiating the action. This is a fundamental concept of Vedanta as expressed In Gita in more than one chapter. My conclusion is that we are intimately and immediately responsible for our own decisions and actions. Therefore we are capable of attaining jnana (and beyond)! HERE IS THE IMPORTANT CONCLUSION: If it is as Sri Ramana Maharshi says, and the only will is the divine will and everything else is predestined - then we must conclude that god is biased because he gives some people happiness and others distress. If those individuals are not themselves responsible for their happiness or suffering, then it is all due to the will of god - and such a god is reprehensible for his gives one being pleasure (for no reason) and another he gives pain (for no reason). Vedanta cannot accept such a flawed conception of Godhead. Therefore Sri Ramana Maharshi is incorrect. With respect and the feet of my preceptors upon my head... ~ Vic DiCara www.vicdicara.com www.vedicastrologer.net On Nov 12, 2008, at 5:03 AM, Wendy Vasicek wrote: > A small excerpt from the teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi: > > Question: > Is there such a thing as free will? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: > Whose will is it? So long as there is the sense of doership, there > is the > sense of enjoyment and of individual will. But if this sense is lost > through the practice of Vichara (self-enquiry), the divine will will > act > and guide the course of events. Fate is overcome by Jnana, > Self-knowledge, which is beyond will and fate. > > Question: > I can understand that the outstanding events in a man’s life, such > as his > country, nationality, family, career or profession, marriage, death, > etc., are all predestined by his Karma, but can it be that all the > details of his life, down to the minutest, have already been > determined? > Now, for instance, I put this fan that is in my hand down on the floor > here. Can it be that it was already decided that on such and such a > day, > at such and such an hour, I should move the fan like this and put it > down > here? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: > Certainly. Whatever this body is to do and whatever experiences it > is to > pass through was already decided when it came into existence. > > Question: > What becomes then of man’s freedom and responsibility for his actions? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: > The only freedom man has is to strive for and acquire the Jnana > (knowledge) which will enable him not to identify himself with the > body. > The body will go through the actions rendered inevitable by > Prarabdha and > a man is free either to identify himself with the body and be > attached to > the fruits of its actions or to be detached from it and be a mere > witness > of its activities. > > Best Wishes, > Mrs. Wendy > http://JyotishVidya.com > ___ > > > - > " Krishnamurthy Seetharama " <krishna_1998 > <jyotish-vidya > > Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:44 PM > Re: Article on Jyotish > > > Dear Mrs. Wendy, > > You could be correct. However, after reading that paragraph again, I > am > unable to reach the same conclusion as you have. It could be my > limitation to understand or comprehend what the sages have said. > But, I > will keep my efforts going and I will start believing what you have > said > once I am convinced. > > Regards, > Krishna > > > > --- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted November 12, 2008 Report Share Posted November 12, 2008 Dear Vic, Thanks for sharing these thoughts. It is really illuminating for a person like me who has not spent enough time going deeper into philosophy and only has a surface level knowledge. When I saw the quotes of Ramana Maharshi, within me I knew that it is not in line with what I believe in. But, I did not know how to counter those statements properly. Hence, I just mentioned that I belong to a different school of thought. I have a suggestion. As we are digressing from Astrology, we could put a stop to this thread if everyone agrees. Regards, Krishna --- On Thu, 13/11/08, Vic D <vicdicara wrote: Vic D <vicdicara Re: Karma and Destiny: Sri Ramana Maharshi jyotish-vidya Thursday, 13 November, 2008, 6:35 AM This veers from the direct discussion of astrology... This respected teacher is propounding the tattva of maya-vada, or at least of brahma-vada... which holds the state of individuality to be an inferior state of being. I do not belong to those schools of Vedanta, but to the Madhva sampradaya - whose fundamental thesis is that 1 - there is ignorance in individuality which is separate from godhead. 2 - there is knowledge in the destruction of that individuality 3 - there is perfection of knowledge in the subsequent re- establishment of individuality in intimate connection with godhead (acintya-bhed-abhed-tattva) There is ignorance of a different and very subtle type in the refusal of one's intimate connection with godhead and the instance upon a non- personal and homogenous undifferentiated state of being. Sri Ramana Maharsi was asked if there is free will, to which he answered that there is only divine will. I call upon the authority of my predecessors in the Brahma-Gaudiya-Madhva sampradaya for the right to respectfully state that this statement is a product of illusion. Eko bahu syam Anadamoya abhyaasat. " The one IS many because enjoyment and pleasure must be known, " states Vedanta. The individual wills are eternally distinct beings, and individual will is NOT an illusion. In Gita Krishna state " mamaivamsha jiva-loke, jiva-bhuta sanatanam " mam/eva/amsha = CERTAINLY my divisions jiva-loke = the multitudes of individuals jiva-bhuta = the individual beings sanatana = ETERNALLY ~ ~ ~ Next Sri Ramana Maharshi is asked if every minute detail of our life is determined by karma alone. Again with respect as the humble representative of the great Madva-Acarya I state that he has answered this question imperfectly. A better answer would be to point out the " chicken or the egg " nature of the question and clarify that freewill corrupted by ignorance (avidya) causes a person to act outside of his natural capacity as a part and parcel of godhead. In so doing he creates karma. That karma then increases his desire to behave similarly again. What came first, the desire or the action? Since it is a circular pattern there appears to be no starting point. But the real answer is that the origin of all karma is outside the circle, in the form of avidya or ignorance. ~ ~ ~ Finally Sri Ramana Maharshi is asked if everything is predetermined, why are we responsible for our actions? He answers that our only freewill is to quest for jnana to realize our difference from the material body. He does not explain why this is not also subject to his concept of predestination, and that is a great flaw. Furthermore the questioner is correct that karmic reaction accrues to the entity responsible for initiating the action. This is a fundamental concept of Vedanta as expressed In Gita in more than one chapter. My conclusion is that we are intimately and immediately responsible for our own decisions and actions. Therefore we are capable of attaining jnana (and beyond)! HERE IS THE IMPORTANT CONCLUSION: If it is as Sri Ramana Maharshi says, and the only will is the divine will and everything else is predestined - then we must conclude that god is biased because he gives some people happiness and others distress. If those individuals are not themselves responsible for their happiness or suffering, then it is all due to the will of god - and such a god is reprehensible for his gives one being pleasure (for no reason) and another he gives pain (for no reason). Vedanta cannot accept such a flawed conception of Godhead. Therefore Sri Ramana Maharshi is incorrect. With respect and the feet of my preceptors upon my head... ~ Vic DiCara www.vicdicara.com www.vedicastrologer.net On Nov 12, 2008, at 5:03 AM, Wendy Vasicek wrote: > A small excerpt from the teachings of Sri Ramana Maharshi: > > Question: > Is there such a thing as free will? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: > Whose will is it? So long as there is the sense of doership, there > is the > sense of enjoyment and of individual will. But if this sense is lost > through the practice of Vichara (self-enquiry), the divine will will > act > and guide the course of events. Fate is overcome by Jnana, > Self-knowledge, which is beyond will and fate. > > Question: > I can understand that the outstanding events in a man’s life, such > as his > country, nationality, family, career or profession, marriage, death, > etc., are all predestined by his Karma, but can it be that all the > details of his life, down to the minutest, have already been > determined? > Now, for instance, I put this fan that is in my hand down on the floor > here. Can it be that it was already decided that on such and such a > day, > at such and such an hour, I should move the fan like this and put it > down > here? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: > Certainly. Whatever this body is to do and whatever experiences it > is to > pass through was already decided when it came into existence. > > Question: > What becomes then of man’s freedom and responsibility for his actions? > > Sri Ramana Maharshi: > The only freedom man has is to strive for and acquire the Jnana > (knowledge) which will enable him not to identify himself with the > body. > The body will go through the actions rendered inevitable by > Prarabdha and > a man is free either to identify himself with the body and be > attached to > the fruits of its actions or to be detached from it and be a mere > witness > of its activities. > > Best Wishes, > Mrs. Wendy > http://JyotishVidya.com > ___ > > > - > " Krishnamurthy Seetharama " <krishna_1998 > <jyotish-vidya > > Wednesday, November 12, 2008 8:44 PM > Re: Article on Jyotish > > > Dear Mrs. Wendy, > > You could be correct. However, after reading that paragraph again, I > am > unable to reach the same conclusion as you have. It could be my > limitation to understand or comprehend what the sages have said. > But, I > will keep my efforts going and I will start believing what you have > said > once I am convinced. > > Regards, > Krishna > > > > --- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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