Guest guest Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Dear Vic Shiv is the lord of all planets also, from Sun to Saturn. All Vedas flowed out from from Shiv and so does all Yoga. " Just as the body craves sex, the mind craves logic. " The later may be more refined, but still in essence it is the same as the former. Only when the lord speaks through a devoted yogi astrologer, can the advice help in betterment. Else its business as usual. It is said that a realized astrologer or guru or saint is like god holding hands. Will take considerable search to find one. Till then talk to anyone a person wishes, but after all analysis is done, simply bow to Shiv. Om Namah Shivay Rajeev On Mon, Jun 23, 2008 at 10:05 PM, Vic D <vicdicara wrote: > Dear Group, > > Recently my friend, Rajeev, mentioned Shiva worship as a cure-all > remedy. In a sense I must agree. There are certain things which are > never bad as advice: " Be good to others " etc. And worship of Mahadev > is always prosperous. Similarly chanting of Mantra, particularly maha- > mantra (Hare Krishna... Hare Rama...) is never detrimental. > > Nevertheless these are generic remedies and shouldn't be prescribed > without some specific focus to their application. For example, this > morning I prescribed Garbodhan samskar in a simplified format > utilizing mahamantra for the purpose of getting a male child. I > augmented this generic recommendation with ayurvedic recomendations as > well as chromosomal/hormonal recommendations from 5th Skanda of > Bhagavat Puran, as well as even a (toned-down) reference to Kaam sutra. > > So I do think some focus needs to be given to generic " good fortune " > remedies. > > Yours, > Vic > www.vedicastrologer.net > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Dear Rajeev, > Shiv is the lord of all planets also, from Sun to Saturn. Can you support this with a quote from Sastra? I'm interested in it, since clearly in the main sense all the planets and lokas are aspects of the Virat Rupa of Vishnu (see Skanda 2 of Bhagavat Purana) Thanks, Vic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Dear Vic I am not sure, if I have read it somewhere or not. But I have heard this many times at many places. Atleast for me it makes no difference if someone says its Vishnu who is the lord of planets. Different branding of one product, packaged & put across as per convenience, donations, political pressures from time to time or favors or necessity received by different sects over long periods of time. Kindly do not miss the point, that there is a HUGE amount of branding and packaging in the Hindu system of religion. and there is no brand in past which can compete with the likes of Ram, Shiv or Vishnu or Jesus and so on. The gods may be real as we know them, or they may be something very different from what we imagine them to be. (recall that your fingers would look very very very different (horrifically different) when looked under an electron microscope.) I am dead sure that much of what goes around as religion today, was simple mental gymnastics of various creative minds pushed to do something in free time or out of various necessity. I shall look up and find where I read about that regarding shiva. Om Namah Shivay Rajeev On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Vic D <vicdicara wrote: > Dear Rajeev, > > > > Shiv is the lord of all planets also, from Sun to Saturn. > > Can you support this with a quote from Sastra? I'm interested in it, > since clearly in the main sense all the planets and lokas are aspects > of the Virat Rupa of Vishnu (see Skanda 2 of Bhagavat Purana) > > Thanks, > Vic > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 Dear Rajeev, Yes, you must find shastric support for your statement. I am not interested in branding. I have no interest in sectarian religiosity of any shape or form, Hindu or otherwise. You made a statement that Shiva- ji is the lord of all the planets. You made this in an astrological forum. So please substantiate your statement. Your attitude in this email is contrary to your previously expressed attitudes about the value of Guru and Sadhu. Guru and Sadhu have spoken the Vedas, they are not a microscopic or macroscopic view of reality - they are a complete and realized view. If you do not have the right attitude towards them you will not be granted access to the realizations they mystically hold. It is my opinion that there are various devas associated with various planets - and *not* that Shiva-ji is the lord of them all. Of couse, he IS the lord of them all, but not astrologically OR astronomically speaking. In my opinion astrologically each planet has it's own isthadeva and it's own representative diety. And astronomically each planet is a part of the virat rupa which is ultimately an imaginary manifestation of the Purusha, who is Visnu Tattva. Yours Vic DiCara http://www.vedicastrologer.net On Jun 23, 2008, at 12:18 PM, RajeevM wrote: > Dear Vic > > I am not sure, if I have read it somewhere or not. > But I have heard this many times at many places. > > Atleast for me it makes no difference if someone says its Vishnu who > is the > lord of planets. > Different branding of one product, packaged & put across as per > convenience, > donations, political pressures from time to time or favors or > necessity > received by different sects over long periods of time. > > Kindly do not miss the point, that there is a HUGE amount of > branding and > packaging in the Hindu system of religion. > and there is no brand in past which can compete with the likes of > Ram, Shiv > or Vishnu or Jesus and so on. > > The gods may be real as we know them, or they may be something very > different from what we imagine them to be. > (recall that your fingers would look very very very different > (horrifically > different) when looked under an electron microscope.) > > I am dead sure that much of what goes around as religion today, was > simple > mental gymnastics of various creative minds pushed to do something > in free > time or out of various necessity. > > I shall look up and find where I read about that regarding shiva. > > Om Namah Shivay > Rajeev > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Vic D <vicdicara wrote: > >> Dear Rajeev, >> >> >>> Shiv is the lord of all planets also, from Sun to Saturn. >> >> Can you support this with a quote from Sastra? I'm interested in it, >> since clearly in the main sense all the planets and lokas are aspects >> of the Virat Rupa of Vishnu (see Skanda 2 of Bhagavat Purana) >> >> Thanks, >> Vic >> >> > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 23, 2008 Report Share Posted June 23, 2008 //And astronomically each planet is a part of the virat rupa which is ultimately an imaginary manifestation of the Purusha, who is Visnu Tattva.// Absolutely right. best wishes, Bhaskar. jyotish-vidya , Vic D <vicdicara wrote: > > Dear Rajeev, > > Yes, you must find shastric support for your statement. I am not > interested in branding. I have no interest in sectarian religiosity of > any shape or form, Hindu or otherwise. You made a statement that Shiva- > ji is the lord of all the planets. You made this in an astrological > forum. So please substantiate your statement. > > Your attitude in this email is contrary to your previously expressed > attitudes about the value of Guru and Sadhu. Guru and Sadhu have > spoken the Vedas, they are not a microscopic or macroscopic view of > reality - they are a complete and realized view. If you do not have > the right attitude towards them you will not be granted access to the > realizations they mystically hold. > > It is my opinion that there are various devas associated with various > planets - and *not* that Shiva-ji is the lord of them all. Of couse, > he IS the lord of them all, but not astrologically OR astronomically > speaking. In my opinion astrologically each planet has it's own > isthadeva and it's own representative diety. And astronomically each > planet is a part of the virat rupa which is ultimately an imaginary > manifestation of the Purusha, who is Visnu Tattva. > > Yours > Vic DiCara > http://www.vedicastrologer.net > > On Jun 23, 2008, at 12:18 PM, RajeevM wrote: > > > Dear Vic > > > > I am not sure, if I have read it somewhere or not. > > But I have heard this many times at many places. > > > > Atleast for me it makes no difference if someone says its Vishnu who > > is the > > lord of planets. > > Different branding of one product, packaged & put across as per > > convenience, > > donations, political pressures from time to time or favors or > > necessity > > received by different sects over long periods of time. > > > > Kindly do not miss the point, that there is a HUGE amount of > > branding and > > packaging in the Hindu system of religion. > > and there is no brand in past which can compete with the likes of > > Ram, Shiv > > or Vishnu or Jesus and so on. > > > > The gods may be real as we know them, or they may be something very > > different from what we imagine them to be. > > (recall that your fingers would look very very very different > > (horrifically > > different) when looked under an electron microscope.) > > > > I am dead sure that much of what goes around as religion today, was > > simple > > mental gymnastics of various creative minds pushed to do something > > in free > > time or out of various necessity. > > > > I shall look up and find where I read about that regarding shiva. > > > > Om Namah Shivay > > Rajeev > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Vic D <vicdicara wrote: > > > >> Dear Rajeev, > >> > >> > >>> Shiv is the lord of all planets also, from Sun to Saturn. > >> > >> Can you support this with a quote from Sastra? I'm interested in it, > >> since clearly in the main sense all the planets and lokas are aspects > >> of the Virat Rupa of Vishnu (see Skanda 2 of Bhagavat Purana) > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Vic > >> > >> > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 Dear Vic > " If you do not have the right attitude towards them you will not be granted access to the >realizations they mystically hold. " It feels very jaundiced when someone thinks that his own eyes are best eyes. A lot of demons got salvation much faster than saints since their only occupation was to constantly plot schemes to kill some form of god. Talk about way to have devotion.!! Coming to Branding Every Name we hear now (Shiv, Vishnu) etc were coined by someone at sometime in past. It is stated at many places that the forms of lord devised were done so as to suit local conditions. Like Allah in desert locations and Jesus in West etc etc. Different god roops (personality) gained popularity at different times depending on which king made temples etc devoted to those roops and did big anusthans for the same. Religion was used and mis-used by those in power to suit their needs. It happens everyday, everywhere, today also. Religion is and was a business 99% of time. Will sound very pungent but look around. I have my own ways of looking at god which needs a lot of dissecting before trust can be placed on some ideal. Looking at existing customs, I woud have been a thorough dis-believer, if not for certain mystic happenings which demonstrate without doubt the presence of god. It is said in Gita that, those who worship sun go to sun, those who worship saturn go to saturn and those who worship " me " come to " me " (me as in supreme god) It is also said that Vishnu constantly japs the name of Shiva and Shiva that of Vinshu. Read the Shavite versions of gods stories & creations, in that Brahma and Vishnu were created or derived from Eternal-Shiva. Now which story is right? I dont have referenes to quote, but this are facts and ideas which I have picked since my readings from class 4-5th from school library to all kinds of books till date. Om Namah Shivay Rajeev On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:56 AM, Vic D <vicdicara wrote: > Dear Rajeev, > > Yes, you must find shastric support for your statement. I am not > interested in branding. I have no interest in sectarian religiosity of > any shape or form, Hindu or otherwise. You made a statement that Shiva- > ji is the lord of all the planets. You made this in an astrological > forum. So please substantiate your statement. > > Your attitude in this email is contrary to your previously expressed > attitudes about the value of Guru and Sadhu. Guru and Sadhu have > spoken the Vedas, they are not a microscopic or macroscopic view of > reality - they are a complete and realized view. If you do not have > the right attitude towards them you will not be granted access to the > realizations they mystically hold. > > It is my opinion that there are various devas associated with various > planets - and *not* that Shiva-ji is the lord of them all. Of couse, > he IS the lord of them all, but not astrologically OR astronomically > speaking. In my opinion astrologically each planet has it's own > isthadeva and it's own representative diety. And astronomically each > planet is a part of the virat rupa which is ultimately an imaginary > manifestation of the Purusha, who is Visnu Tattva. > > Yours > Vic DiCara > http://www.vedicastrologer.net > > > On Jun 23, 2008, at 12:18 PM, RajeevM wrote: > > > Dear Vic > > > > I am not sure, if I have read it somewhere or not. > > But I have heard this many times at many places. > > > > Atleast for me it makes no difference if someone says its Vishnu who > > is the > > lord of planets. > > Different branding of one product, packaged & put across as per > > convenience, > > donations, political pressures from time to time or favors or > > necessity > > received by different sects over long periods of time. > > > > Kindly do not miss the point, that there is a HUGE amount of > > branding and > > packaging in the Hindu system of religion. > > and there is no brand in past which can compete with the likes of > > Ram, Shiv > > or Vishnu or Jesus and so on. > > > > The gods may be real as we know them, or they may be something very > > different from what we imagine them to be. > > (recall that your fingers would look very very very different > > (horrifically > > different) when looked under an electron microscope.) > > > > I am dead sure that much of what goes around as religion today, was > > simple > > mental gymnastics of various creative minds pushed to do something > > in free > > time or out of various necessity. > > > > I shall look up and find where I read about that regarding shiva. > > > > Om Namah Shivay > > Rajeev > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Vic D <vicdicara<vicdicara%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > >> Dear Rajeev, > >> > >> > >>> Shiv is the lord of all planets also, from Sun to Saturn. > >> > >> Can you support this with a quote from Sastra? I'm interested in it, > >> since clearly in the main sense all the planets and lokas are aspects > >> of the Virat Rupa of Vishnu (see Skanda 2 of Bhagavat Purana) > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Vic > >> > >> > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 Some interesting discussion. SG: good to know that u are a shiv bhakt.. Rajeev:: bhakt .. far from it SG: how do u mean Rajeev:: i mean not easy to be a bhakt Rajeev:: just a normal human who talks more about shiv Rajeev:: nothing more SG: the first step is always having faith in Shiv Rajeev:: yes SG: I can never have enough info on Shiv Rajeev:: yes Rajeev:: shiv was not as popularized as krishna SG: the fight between bhrama and Vishnu as who is the leading diety is mentioned in Shiv maha purana Rajeev:: yes SG: that is when Shivji came as a pillar of light,, and brahma went upwards to see the top end of the pillar and vishnu too shape of boar to dig down deep to find the bottom end of pillar SG: neither succeeded but brahma told a lie and used a ketaki flower to give false witness to say he say the top of the pillar SG: Bhrama was cursed by shivji,, that he will never be prayed to by the masses,, hence brahma only has 1 temple in india SG: the pillar of fire is the jyotirling roop of shivji Rajeev:: yes SG: Vishnu's pooja only came about about less than 10,000 yrs ago Rajeev:: yes Rajeev:: do you have any references regarding this? SG: Shivji's statues were found in Mohanjaro and Harrapa period,, well before any written documents were ever around Om Namah Shivay Rajeev On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:56 AM, Vic D <vicdicara wrote: > Dear Rajeev, > > Yes, you must find shastric support for your statement. I am not > interested in branding. I have no interest in sectarian religiosity of > any shape or form, Hindu or otherwise. You made a statement that Shiva- > ji is the lord of all the planets. You made this in an astrological > forum. So please substantiate your statement. > > Your attitude in this email is contrary to your previously expressed > attitudes about the value of Guru and Sadhu. Guru and Sadhu have > spoken the Vedas, they are not a microscopic or macroscopic view of > reality - they are a complete and realized view. If you do not have > the right attitude towards them you will not be granted access to the > realizations they mystically hold. > > It is my opinion that there are various devas associated with various > planets - and *not* that Shiva-ji is the lord of them all. Of couse, > he IS the lord of them all, but not astrologically OR astronomically > speaking. In my opinion astrologically each planet has it's own > isthadeva and it's own representative diety. And astronomically each > planet is a part of the virat rupa which is ultimately an imaginary > manifestation of the Purusha, who is Visnu Tattva. > > Yours > Vic DiCara > http://www.vedicastrologer.net > > > On Jun 23, 2008, at 12:18 PM, RajeevM wrote: > > > Dear Vic > > > > I am not sure, if I have read it somewhere or not. > > But I have heard this many times at many places. > > > > Atleast for me it makes no difference if someone says its Vishnu who > > is the > > lord of planets. > > Different branding of one product, packaged & put across as per > > convenience, > > donations, political pressures from time to time or favors or > > necessity > > received by different sects over long periods of time. > > > > Kindly do not miss the point, that there is a HUGE amount of > > branding and > > packaging in the Hindu system of religion. > > and there is no brand in past which can compete with the likes of > > Ram, Shiv > > or Vishnu or Jesus and so on. > > > > The gods may be real as we know them, or they may be something very > > different from what we imagine them to be. > > (recall that your fingers would look very very very different > > (horrifically > > different) when looked under an electron microscope.) > > > > I am dead sure that much of what goes around as religion today, was > > simple > > mental gymnastics of various creative minds pushed to do something > > in free > > time or out of various necessity. > > > > I shall look up and find where I read about that regarding shiva. > > > > Om Namah Shivay > > Rajeev > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Vic D <vicdicara<vicdicara%40gmail.com>> > wrote: > > > >> Dear Rajeev, > >> > >> > >>> Shiv is the lord of all planets also, from Sun to Saturn. > >> > >> Can you support this with a quote from Sastra? I'm interested in it, > >> since clearly in the main sense all the planets and lokas are aspects > >> of the Virat Rupa of Vishnu (see Skanda 2 of Bhagavat Purana) > >> > >> Thanks, > >> Vic > >> > >> > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 Dear Rajeevji and SG (?), I hope the discussion does not lead towards each trying to prove which of these 3 is superior. We are not equipped to do this and neither is this desirable. For its clearly mentioned in the Ramayan what happens to a Shiv lover but a Ram drohi and vice versa. These 3 are the forms of the same Shakti and just they are formed to do the 3 jobs of creation, preservation and anhilation. there are other stories too to combat this one, where we can prove why Brahma is not worshipped in temples, but this is not the intent of this Forum. When Shiva takes name of Rama, who we all know is a incarnationof Vishnu, then no further episodes are needed from the Puranas and epics to prove anything. For me, I treat Shiva as elder brother of my father, Vishnu,and the rest of the Gods as family members. that way I mantain the decorum in my worship and Pooja, and love each and all. I also take name of Jesus Christ daily in my morning Pooja, as he is a true Son of God, and also because of my affninty towards Him due to having being brought in a Roman catholic school ( Don Bosco )and love all saints and Rishi Munis from every Dharma ,creed and caste. Thus I do not keep any scope or time for He is good, he is better, or he is superior etc. Life is too small, and we must spend it loving our Chosen Father where we have been given birth, and continue doing our duties. Rajeevji, I too am a Shiv Lover, by the way. but treat Vishnu in his form of Krishna, as my father, as mentioned before. best wishes, Bhaskar. jyotish-vidya , RajeevM <rajeevmundra wrote: > > Some interesting discussion. > > SG: good to know that u are a shiv bhakt.. > Rajeev:: bhakt .. far from it > SG: how do u mean > Rajeev:: i mean not easy to be a bhakt > Rajeev:: just a normal human who talks more about shiv > Rajeev:: nothing more > SG: the first step is always having faith in Shiv > Rajeev:: yes > SG: I can never have enough info on Shiv > Rajeev:: yes > Rajeev:: shiv was not as popularized as krishna > SG: the fight between bhrama and Vishnu as who is the leading diety is > mentioned in Shiv maha purana > Rajeev:: yes > SG: that is when Shivji came as a pillar of light,, and brahma went upwards > to see the top end of the pillar and vishnu too shape of boar to dig down > deep to find the bottom end of pillar > SG: neither succeeded but brahma told a lie and used a ketaki flower to give > false witness to say he say the top of the pillar > SG: Bhrama was cursed by shivji,, that he will never be prayed to by the > masses,, hence brahma only has 1 temple in india > SG: the pillar of fire is the jyotirling roop of shivji > Rajeev:: yes > SG: Vishnu's pooja only came about about less than 10,000 yrs ago > Rajeev:: yes > Rajeev:: do you have any references regarding this? > SG: Shivji's statues were found in Mohanjaro and Harrapa period,, well > before any written documents were ever around > > > > Om Namah Shivay > Rajeev > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:56 AM, Vic D <vicdicara wrote: > > > Dear Rajeev, > > > > Yes, you must find shastric support for your statement. I am not > > interested in branding. I have no interest in sectarian religiosity of > > any shape or form, Hindu or otherwise. You made a statement that Shiva- > > ji is the lord of all the planets. You made this in an astrological > > forum. So please substantiate your statement. > > > > Your attitude in this email is contrary to your previously expressed > > attitudes about the value of Guru and Sadhu. Guru and Sadhu have > > spoken the Vedas, they are not a microscopic or macroscopic view of > > reality - they are a complete and realized view. If you do not have > > the right attitude towards them you will not be granted access to the > > realizations they mystically hold. > > > > It is my opinion that there are various devas associated with various > > planets - and *not* that Shiva-ji is the lord of them all. Of couse, > > he IS the lord of them all, but not astrologically OR astronomically > > speaking. In my opinion astrologically each planet has it's own > > isthadeva and it's own representative diety. And astronomically each > > planet is a part of the virat rupa which is ultimately an imaginary > > manifestation of the Purusha, who is Visnu Tattva. > > > > Yours > > Vic DiCara > > http://www.vedicastrologer.net > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2008, at 12:18 PM, RajeevM wrote: > > > > > Dear Vic > > > > > > I am not sure, if I have read it somewhere or not. > > > But I have heard this many times at many places. > > > > > > Atleast for me it makes no difference if someone says its Vishnu who > > > is the > > > lord of planets. > > > Different branding of one product, packaged & put across as per > > > convenience, > > > donations, political pressures from time to time or favors or > > > necessity > > > received by different sects over long periods of time. > > > > > > Kindly do not miss the point, that there is a HUGE amount of > > > branding and > > > packaging in the Hindu system of religion. > > > and there is no brand in past which can compete with the likes of > > > Ram, Shiv > > > or Vishnu or Jesus and so on. > > > > > > The gods may be real as we know them, or they may be something very > > > different from what we imagine them to be. > > > (recall that your fingers would look very very very different > > > (horrifically > > > different) when looked under an electron microscope.) > > > > > > I am dead sure that much of what goes around as religion today, was > > > simple > > > mental gymnastics of various creative minds pushed to do something > > > in free > > > time or out of various necessity. > > > > > > I shall look up and find where I read about that regarding shiva. > > > > > > Om Namah Shivay > > > Rajeev > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Vic D <vicdicara<vicdicara%40gmail.com>> > > wrote: > > > > > >> Dear Rajeev, > > >> > > >> > > >>> Shiv is the lord of all planets also, from Sun to Saturn. > > >> > > >> Can you support this with a quote from Sastra? I'm interested in it, > > >> since clearly in the main sense all the planets and lokas are aspects > > >> of the Virat Rupa of Vishnu (see Skanda 2 of Bhagavat Purana) > > >> > > >> Thanks, > > >> Vic > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 Dear Rajeev, On Jun 23, 2008, at 10:11 PM, RajeevM wrote: >> " If you do not have the right attitude towards them you will not be >> granted access to the >> realizations they mystically hold. " > > It feels very jaundiced when someone thinks that his own eyes are > best eyes. I don't see how your reply relates to what you have quoted from me. Please explain. > A lot of demons got salvation much faster than saints since their only > occupation was to constantly plot schemes to kill some form of god. > Talk > about way to have devotion.!! Putana, Kamsa, etc. get mukti in brahmajyoti only, unless they are unusually blessed due to being bhaktas in a past life. The bhaktas get beyond brahmajyoti, into Vaikuntha, Ayodhya, Dvaraka, Matura, Braja, Vrindaban, Govardhana, and ultimately Radha-kunda. > Coming to Branding > Every Name we hear now (Shiv, Vishnu) etc were coined by someone at > sometime > in past. It is stated at many places that the forms of lord devised > were done so as > to suit local conditions. Like Allah in desert locations and Jesus > in West etc etc This is an anthropocentric concept of religion. It is informed not by occult insight but by empirical sciences only. A better viewpoint is informed both by empirical and occult science. Although the cultural diffusion of religion is a fact to be considered wisely, the original context of truth is that the Supreme Godhead is not a figment of man's imagination - rather man's mind is a facet of the Supreme Godhead's imagination. > Religion was used and mis-used by those in power to suit their > needs. It happens everyday, everywhere, today also. Religion is and > was a business 99% of time. Will sound very pungent but look around. Again, I stated that I have no interest in sectarian religion - Hindu, Christian, whatever - beyond the curiosity and fascination that my Taurus mind finds in ancient things. My motto is " Sarva dharman PARITYAJA.... KRISHNAM ekam sharanam vraja. " > Read the Shavite versions of gods stories & creations, in that > Brahma and > Vishnu were created or derived from Eternal-Shiva. > Now which story is right? > > I dont have referenes to quote, but this are facts and ideas which I > have > picked since my readings from class 4-5th from school library to all > kinds > of books till date. Yes, but frankly and with friendship, if you don't have references to quote you are just being lazy. And laziness will not go well with your need to incisively dissect philosophical and religious theories before gaining shraddha or trust in them. Therefore find me some specific quotes and references to support the following statements, or else withdraw your statements: - Shiva is the lord of all planets - Vishnu chants the name of Shiva as much as Shiv chants the name of Raam - Vishnu was created from Shiva, who is the eternal transcendent Lord. Rajeev. I am being blunt with you because I know you and like you. Please don't take offence, and others reading this please do not be inspired to similar bluntness by my poor example. Yours, Vic Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 Dear Bhaskar ji, Vic ji I think you read things in big hurry. SG is someone chatting to me from this group, dont want to say full name. There were discussions on who rules what (planets etc) and so on. and also some previous discussion on which god sits at top of divine hierarchy. Some say vishnu and some say shiva. (my stance is it doesnot matter) Since wether i get 1 trillion dollar from vishnu or 10 trillion dollar from shiv, it doesnot makes any difference. I wont be able to spend more than a billion or ten in best case spending splurge..!! (just an example, no emails on this, plz) >>> Putana, Kamsa, etc. get mukti in brahmajyoti only, unless they are >>> unusually blessed due to being bhaktas in a past life. The bhaktas get >>> beyond brahmajyoti, into Vaikuntha, Ayodhya, Dvaraka, Matura, Braja, >>> Vrindaban, Govardhana, and ultimately Radha-kunda. As long as I can leave earth gracefully, and not be pushed into the darkest depths of hell, i will be quite happy. I can wait for Radha Kunda for a few more (million) life times.!! Again VIC note the terms like " Radha-Kunda " , these are explicit concepts tied to the fact that Vishu is at top. Just know that a shavite will disagree and so will various shiv purans, for me its ok, who ever sits on top as looked from the eyes of above (trillion dollar and earth leaving statements.) I am sure you can dig up some shiv purans and get all the references yourself. You may find a lot more items for thought in the hunt. I am again sorry, I wont be able to directly point at references. But you can try and you will find a lot of inspiration in books devoted to Shiv also. Remember Shiv is the perfect Yogi and all Yogas flow from him as told to pavati and some saints. Even all tantra, mantra etc flew out from shiv. (again I have no references) Find yourself if interested. The Shiv related material is very interesting to read. Om Namah Shivay Rajeev On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:40 PM, Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish wrote: > > Dear Rajeevji and SG (?), > > I hope the discussion does not lead towards > each trying to prove which of > these 3 is superior. We are not equipped > to do this and neither is this desirable. > For its clearly mentioned in the Ramayan > what happens to a Shiv lover but a > Ram drohi and vice versa. These 3 are the > forms of the same Shakti and just they > are formed to do the 3 jobs of creation, > preservation and anhilation. > > there are other stories too to combat > this one, where we can prove why Brahma > is not worshipped in temples, but this is > not the intent of this Forum. When Shiva > takes name of Rama, who we all know > is a incarnationof Vishnu, then no further > episodes are needed from the Puranas and > epics to prove anything. > > For me, I treat Shiva as elder brother of > my father, Vishnu,and the rest of the Gods > as family members. that way I mantain the > decorum in my worship and Pooja, and love > each and all. > > I also take name of Jesus Christ daily in > my morning Pooja, as he is a true Son of God, > and also because of my affninty towards > Him due to having being brought in a > Roman catholic school ( Don Bosco )and > love all saints and Rishi Munis from every > Dharma ,creed and caste. > > Thus I do not keep any scope or time for > He is good, he is better, or he is superior > etc. Life is too small, and we must spend it > loving our Chosen Father where we have been > given birth, and continue doing our duties. > > Rajeevji, I too am a Shiv Lover, by the way. > but treat Vishnu in his form of Krishna, > as my father, as mentioned before. > > best wishes, > Bhaskar. > > jyotish-vidya <jyotish-vidya%40>, > RajeevM <rajeevmundra > wrote: > > > > > Some interesting discussion. > > > > SG: good to know that u are a shiv bhakt.. > > Rajeev:: bhakt .. far from it > > SG: how do u mean > > Rajeev:: i mean not easy to be a bhakt > > Rajeev:: just a normal human who talks more about shiv > > Rajeev:: nothing more > > SG: the first step is always having faith in Shiv > > Rajeev:: yes > > SG: I can never have enough info on Shiv > > Rajeev:: yes > > Rajeev:: shiv was not as popularized as krishna > > SG: the fight between bhrama and Vishnu as who is the leading diety > is > > mentioned in Shiv maha purana > > Rajeev:: yes > > SG: that is when Shivji came as a pillar of light,, and brahma went > upwards > > to see the top end of the pillar and vishnu too shape of boar to > dig down > > deep to find the bottom end of pillar > > SG: neither succeeded but brahma told a lie and used a ketaki > flower to give > > false witness to say he say the top of the pillar > > SG: Bhrama was cursed by shivji,, that he will never be prayed to > by the > > masses,, hence brahma only has 1 temple in india > > SG: the pillar of fire is the jyotirling roop of shivji > > Rajeev:: yes > > SG: Vishnu's pooja only came about about less than 10,000 yrs ago > > Rajeev:: yes > > Rajeev:: do you have any references regarding this? > > SG: Shivji's statues were found in Mohanjaro and Harrapa period,, > well > > before any written documents were ever around > > > > > > > > Om Namah Shivay > > Rajeev > > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:56 AM, Vic D <vicdicara wrote: > > > > > Dear Rajeev, > > > > > > Yes, you must find shastric support for your statement. I am not > > > interested in branding. I have no interest in sectarian > religiosity of > > > any shape or form, Hindu or otherwise. You made a statement that > Shiva- > > > ji is the lord of all the planets. You made this in an > astrological > > > forum. So please substantiate your statement. > > > > > > Your attitude in this email is contrary to your previously > expressed > > > attitudes about the value of Guru and Sadhu. Guru and Sadhu have > > > spoken the Vedas, they are not a microscopic or macroscopic view > of > > > reality - they are a complete and realized view. If you do not > have > > > the right attitude towards them you will not be granted access to > the > > > realizations they mystically hold. > > > > > > It is my opinion that there are various devas associated with > various > > > planets - and *not* that Shiva-ji is the lord of them all. Of > couse, > > > he IS the lord of them all, but not astrologically OR > astronomically > > > speaking. In my opinion astrologically each planet has it's own > > > isthadeva and it's own representative diety. And astronomically > each > > > planet is a part of the virat rupa which is ultimately an > imaginary > > > manifestation of the Purusha, who is Visnu Tattva. > > > > > > Yours > > > Vic DiCara > > > http://www.vedicastrologer.net > > > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2008, at 12:18 PM, RajeevM wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Vic > > > > > > > > I am not sure, if I have read it somewhere or not. > > > > But I have heard this many times at many places. > > > > > > > > Atleast for me it makes no difference if someone says its > Vishnu who > > > > is the > > > > lord of planets. > > > > Different branding of one product, packaged & put across as per > > > > convenience, > > > > donations, political pressures from time to time or favors or > > > > necessity > > > > received by different sects over long periods of time. > > > > > > > > Kindly do not miss the point, that there is a HUGE amount of > > > > branding and > > > > packaging in the Hindu system of religion. > > > > and there is no brand in past which can compete with the likes > of > > > > Ram, Shiv > > > > or Vishnu or Jesus and so on. > > > > > > > > The gods may be real as we know them, or they may be something > very > > > > different from what we imagine them to be. > > > > (recall that your fingers would look very very very different > > > > (horrifically > > > > different) when looked under an electron microscope.) > > > > > > > > I am dead sure that much of what goes around as religion today, > was > > > > simple > > > > mental gymnastics of various creative minds pushed to do > something > > > > in free > > > > time or out of various necessity. > > > > > > > > I shall look up and find where I read about that regarding > shiva. > > > > > > > > Om Namah Shivay > > > > Rajeev > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Vic D > <vicdicara<vicdicara%40gmail.com>> > > > wrote: > > > > > > > >> Dear Rajeev, > > > >> > > > >> > > > >>> Shiv is the lord of all planets also, from Sun to Saturn. > > > >> > > > >> Can you support this with a quote from Sastra? I'm interested > in it, > > > >> since clearly in the main sense all the planets and lokas are > aspects > > > >> of the Virat Rupa of Vishnu (see Skanda 2 of Bhagavat Purana) > > > >> > > > >> Thanks, > > > >> Vic > > > >> > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 Dear Rajeevji, You are pushing the Shiva theory here and creating biases in the minds of the members. Please believe the good men that they love both Shiva as well as Vishnu. I have already writtent his to yuo before, but have not pushed any Vishnu theory to overlap the Shiva thoery. I have already mentioned that Shiva is the Param Pita ( Fathers elder brother) for me and Vishnu is the Pita ( father) for me. So no sense in pushing Shiva theory. I love both. And so does Vic as I can see from his posts. In time to come, few or more years from'now, you too will come to love both of threm. I have visited both Radha kund as well as Gopikund. And those who visited with me were not averse to Siva either. The facts stays as per the Puranas, that Vishnu was the Original creator to create the 9 Planets and all the other manifestations we see all around. No Shiva Purana says this. I challenge anyone to prove this. I have read the Shiva Purana too, but not here to point out differences between our Gods and create factions. Our job is to Love all the Gods, maybe prefer one, and be loyal towards one , but love all. The essence of all this dicussion which one must realise is, that we must love all and not waste our time in trying to prove who is better. Shiva is Good, Brahma is Good, Vishnu is Good, Allah is good, Jesus is good, and all the saints and Bhaktas are good. We have to become a good Bhakta is what we must aspire for.Noting beyond this is worth spending time upon. I hope this is the last mail on this thread. best wishes, Bhaskar. jyotish-vidya , RajeevM <rajeevmundra wrote: > > Dear Bhaskar ji, Vic ji > > I think you read things in big hurry. > SG is someone chatting to me from this group, dont want to say full name. > > There were discussions on who rules what (planets etc) and so on. > and also some previous discussion on which god sits at top of divine > hierarchy. > > Some say vishnu and some say shiva. (my stance is it doesnot matter) > > Since wether i get 1 trillion dollar from vishnu or 10 trillion dollar from > shiv, it doesnot makes any difference. > I wont be able to spend more than a billion or ten in best case spending > splurge..!! (just an example, no emails on this, plz) > > >>> Putana, Kamsa, etc. get mukti in brahmajyoti only, unless they are > >>> unusually blessed due to being bhaktas in a past life. The bhaktas get > >>> beyond brahmajyoti, into Vaikuntha, Ayodhya, Dvaraka, Matura, Braja, > >>> Vrindaban, Govardhana, and ultimately Radha-kunda. > As long as I can leave earth gracefully, and not be pushed into the darkest > depths of hell, i will be quite happy. > I can wait for Radha Kunda for a few more (million) life times.!! > > Again VIC note the terms like " Radha-Kunda " , these are explicit concepts > tied to the fact that Vishu is at top. > Just know that a shavite will disagree and so will various shiv purans, for > me its ok, who ever sits on top as looked from the eyes of above (trillion > dollar and earth leaving statements.) > > I am sure you can dig up some shiv purans and get all the references > yourself. > You may find a lot more items for thought in the hunt. > > I am again sorry, I wont be able to directly point at references. > But you can try and you will find a lot of inspiration in books devoted to > Shiv also. > Remember Shiv is the perfect Yogi and all Yogas flow from him as told to > pavati and some saints. > > Even all tantra, mantra etc flew out from shiv. (again I have no references) > Find yourself if interested. > > The Shiv related material is very interesting to read. > > Om Namah Shivay > Rajeev > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 8:40 PM, Bhaskar <bhaskar_jyotish > wrote: > > > > > Dear Rajeevji and SG (?), > > > > I hope the discussion does not lead towards > > each trying to prove which of > > these 3 is superior. We are not equipped > > to do this and neither is this desirable. > > For its clearly mentioned in the Ramayan > > what happens to a Shiv lover but a > > Ram drohi and vice versa. These 3 are the > > forms of the same Shakti and just they > > are formed to do the 3 jobs of creation, > > preservation and anhilation. > > > > there are other stories too to combat > > this one, where we can prove why Brahma > > is not worshipped in temples, but this is > > not the intent of this Forum. When Shiva > > takes name of Rama, who we all know > > is a incarnationof Vishnu, then no further > > episodes are needed from the Puranas and > > epics to prove anything. > > > > For me, I treat Shiva as elder brother of > > my father, Vishnu,and the rest of the Gods > > as family members. that way I mantain the > > decorum in my worship and Pooja, and love > > each and all. > > > > I also take name of Jesus Christ daily in > > my morning Pooja, as he is a true Son of God, > > and also because of my affninty towards > > Him due to having being brought in a > > Roman catholic school ( Don Bosco )and > > love all saints and Rishi Munis from every > > Dharma ,creed and caste. > > > > Thus I do not keep any scope or time for > > He is good, he is better, or he is superior > > etc. Life is too small, and we must spend it > > loving our Chosen Father where we have been > > given birth, and continue doing our duties. > > > > Rajeevji, I too am a Shiv Lover, by the way. > > but treat Vishnu in his form of Krishna, > > as my father, as mentioned before. > > > > best wishes, > > Bhaskar. > > > > jyotish-vidya <jyotish-vidya% 40>, > > RajeevM <rajeevmundra@> > > wrote: > > > > > > > > Some interesting discussion. > > > > > > SG: good to know that u are a shiv bhakt.. > > > Rajeev:: bhakt .. far from it > > > SG: how do u mean > > > Rajeev:: i mean not easy to be a bhakt > > > Rajeev:: just a normal human who talks more about shiv > > > Rajeev:: nothing more > > > SG: the first step is always having faith in Shiv > > > Rajeev:: yes > > > SG: I can never have enough info on Shiv > > > Rajeev:: yes > > > Rajeev:: shiv was not as popularized as krishna > > > SG: the fight between bhrama and Vishnu as who is the leading diety > > is > > > mentioned in Shiv maha purana > > > Rajeev:: yes > > > SG: that is when Shivji came as a pillar of light,, and brahma went > > upwards > > > to see the top end of the pillar and vishnu too shape of boar to > > dig down > > > deep to find the bottom end of pillar > > > SG: neither succeeded but brahma told a lie and used a ketaki > > flower to give > > > false witness to say he say the top of the pillar > > > SG: Bhrama was cursed by shivji,, that he will never be prayed to > > by the > > > masses,, hence brahma only has 1 temple in india > > > SG: the pillar of fire is the jyotirling roop of shivji > > > Rajeev:: yes > > > SG: Vishnu's pooja only came about about less than 10,000 yrs ago > > > Rajeev:: yes > > > Rajeev:: do you have any references regarding this? > > > SG: Shivji's statues were found in Mohanjaro and Harrapa period,, > > well > > > before any written documents were ever around > > > > > > > > > > > > Om Namah Shivay > > > Rajeev > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:56 AM, Vic D <vicdicara@> wrote: > > > > > > > Dear Rajeev, > > > > > > > > Yes, you must find shastric support for your statement. I am not > > > > interested in branding. I have no interest in sectarian > > religiosity of > > > > any shape or form, Hindu or otherwise. You made a statement that > > Shiva- > > > > ji is the lord of all the planets. You made this in an > > astrological > > > > forum. So please substantiate your statement. > > > > > > > > Your attitude in this email is contrary to your previously > > expressed > > > > attitudes about the value of Guru and Sadhu. Guru and Sadhu have > > > > spoken the Vedas, they are not a microscopic or macroscopic view > > of > > > > reality - they are a complete and realized view. If you do not > > have > > > > the right attitude towards them you will not be granted access to > > the > > > > realizations they mystically hold. > > > > > > > > It is my opinion that there are various devas associated with > > various > > > > planets - and *not* that Shiva-ji is the lord of them all. Of > > couse, > > > > he IS the lord of them all, but not astrologically OR > > astronomically > > > > speaking. In my opinion astrologically each planet has it's own > > > > isthadeva and it's own representative diety. And astronomically > > each > > > > planet is a part of the virat rupa which is ultimately an > > imaginary > > > > manifestation of the Purusha, who is Visnu Tattva. > > > > > > > > Yours > > > > Vic DiCara > > > > http://www.vedicastrologer.net > > > > > > > > > > > > On Jun 23, 2008, at 12:18 PM, RajeevM wrote: > > > > > > > > > Dear Vic > > > > > > > > > > I am not sure, if I have read it somewhere or not. > > > > > But I have heard this many times at many places. > > > > > > > > > > Atleast for me it makes no difference if someone says its > > Vishnu who > > > > > is the > > > > > lord of planets. > > > > > Different branding of one product, packaged & put across as per > > > > > convenience, > > > > > donations, political pressures from time to time or favors or > > > > > necessity > > > > > received by different sects over long periods of time. > > > > > > > > > > Kindly do not miss the point, that there is a HUGE amount of > > > > > branding and > > > > > packaging in the Hindu system of religion. > > > > > and there is no brand in past which can compete with the likes > > of > > > > > Ram, Shiv > > > > > or Vishnu or Jesus and so on. > > > > > > > > > > The gods may be real as we know them, or they may be something > > very > > > > > different from what we imagine them to be. > > > > > (recall that your fingers would look very very very different > > > > > (horrifically > > > > > different) when looked under an electron microscope.) > > > > > > > > > > I am dead sure that much of what goes around as religion today, > > was > > > > > simple > > > > > mental gymnastics of various creative minds pushed to do > > something > > > > > in free > > > > > time or out of various necessity. > > > > > > > > > > I shall look up and find where I read about that regarding > > shiva. > > > > > > > > > > Om Namah Shivay > > > > > Rajeev > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Tue, Jun 24, 2008 at 12:22 AM, Vic D > > <vicdicara@<vicdicara%40gmail.com>> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > >> Dear Rajeev, > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >>> Shiv is the lord of all planets also, from Sun to Saturn. > > > > >> > > > > >> Can you support this with a quote from Sastra? I'm interested > > in it, > > > > >> since clearly in the main sense all the planets and lokas are > > aspects > > > > >> of the Virat Rupa of Vishnu (see Skanda 2 of Bhagavat Purana) > > > > >> > > > > >> Thanks, > > > > >> Vic > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted June 24, 2008 Report Share Posted June 24, 2008 Dear Rajeev, Whatever conversations are had outside of the group (in " chat " for instance) should not be reproduced here. You should also please desist from turning this group into a sectarian free-for-all. Remember always that this is a jyotish discussion group. If you have a specific question related to jyotish you're welcome to put that forward... If you have specific knowledge/understanding of some aspect (of jyotish) you're also welcome to put that forward. Other sectarian discussions should be directed to groups devoted to such matters. Best Wishes, Mrs. Wendy http://JyotishVidya.com ___ - " RajeevM " <rajeevmundra <jyotish-vidya > Tuesday, June 24, 2008 9:26 PM Re: General Remedies Some interesting discussion. SG: good to know that u are a shiv bhakt.. Rajeev:: bhakt .. far from it SG: how do u mean Rajeev:: i mean not easy to be a bhakt Rajeev:: just a normal human who talks more about shiv Rajeev:: nothing more SG: the first step is always having faith in Shiv Rajeev:: yes SG: I can never have enough info on Shiv Rajeev:: yes Rajeev:: shiv was not as popularized as krishna SG: the fight between bhrama and Vishnu as who is the leading diety is mentioned in Shiv maha purana Rajeev:: yes SG: that is when Shivji came as a pillar of light,, and brahma went upwards to see the top end of the pillar and vishnu too shape of boar to dig down deep to find the bottom end of pillar SG: neither succeeded but brahma told a lie and used a ketaki flower to give false witness to say he say the top of the pillar SG: Bhrama was cursed by shivji,, that he will never be prayed to by the masses,, hence brahma only has 1 temple in india SG: the pillar of fire is the jyotirling roop of shivji Rajeev:: yes SG: Vishnu's pooja only came about about less than 10,000 yrs ago Rajeev:: yes Rajeev:: do you have any references regarding this? SG: Shivji's statues were found in Mohanjaro and Harrapa period,, well before any written documents were ever around Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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