RE: Divisionals 2/ shri Bharat / shri Pradeep

July 20, 2007

Dear Sunil John,

Many thanks for sharing chart data.

I must congratulate Shri Bharat for his brilliant predictive application on the

blind charts.

Please read my reply underneath your comments:

> 1) Before i give reply to the quiz, we must understand as to the context

> in which Shri K.N.Rao had given these two charts. It was on the context

> of Vargas and in the context of ONLY USING RASI CHART TO PREDICT can be

> UNFRUITFUL. I browsed through a post saying that Rao Saheb uses only

> Rasi chart to predict this is not true or hard to digest, as otherwise

> he would not have given this example to me.

[Prafulla] Shri KN Rao has always advocated the use of D charts.

>

> 2) Then a thread where i saw that Rao Saheb says 'That person who cannot

> master Rasi chart cannot do astrology' is like a half truth. Ofcourse we

> need to first see things in Rasi successfully there is no debate to this

> & then cross check what out of the 10 things that we are seeing in a

> house are Actually happening in the concerned divisional- that is the

> method to predict & to master for us students as we progress in our

> journey.

>

[Prafulla] Many of those arguments were selective quotes, and were misleading.

Yes - Rasi chart is the key and D charts are for further micro study. Currently

I believe that - D charts can not deliver beyond the strength of D1 chart

(though I have observed many astrologers successfully using D chart as

independent one).

> 3) It would have been the easiest thing to shut this discussion on

> Vargas wherein charts of Twins could have been presented in the first

> stage but i did not do it, hence i presented a chart where 2 different

> people born on Two Different Dates, born in 2 different cities have the

> same Rasi chart. Then how do we predict with just Rasi chart only. With

> Twins even the Karakamsha is the same whether we use it in the Rasi

> chart or Navamsa chart - that discussion is again useless in our

> context of discussion.

>

[Prafulla] I think the confusion is not on the usefulness of varga chart

(between generally available model as suggested by many great astrologers and

Shri Pradeep's model) - but on the followings:

a. If varga chakra exist as chart

b. if varga chakra can be read like D1 chart (using yogas, combinations, bhava

placement, aspects etc) - most well known modern authors have suggested the

predictive applications using varga chakra like D1 chart.

Most well known modern authors have demonstrated with the use of case studies

the point a and b above.

On another thread - I quoted Late Shri Santhanam's view - I must repeat here in

this context:

While mentioning a case study - Late Shri Santhanam made a comment in bold

regarding Navamsa Tulya Rasi - " However, a word of caution is necessary so that

the use of navamsa is not restricted tho this particular method only. In some

cases - the 5th navamsa for example

means 5th from Navamsa lagna in Navamsa chart. " he further continues - " If the

counting from Navamsa and other divisional charts is not done this way, we will

rediculously end up with each sign in the Rasi being as a representative of many

of the 16 divisions "

In most discussion threads with Shri Pradeep in past few weeks - we all observed

his suggestion / propogation of use of Navamsa Tulya Rasi as an exclusive

method. But how about other D charts - like D10, D3, D60, D81 etc?

Let me come on another interesting basic issue on the calculation of Kharesh (as

used in Prasna marga / BPHS). The 8th lord of D3 chart is Kharesh (22nd

drekkna). Now is it not used as 8th bhava lord of D3 chart? What does it imply?

IMO - it implies that - Bhava are referred in D charts.

>

> It was mentioned in some threads that nowadays quizzes or challenges

> happen (this was mentioned in a sarcastic manner), i agree with them and

> hate it myself but when one has a mentor who hammers everyday in my mind

> that without blind charts attempt, one will not learn jyotish. I feel

> he has some truth as it is easy to give remedies and make predictions

> about the future as no one comes back with feedback - if any astrologer

> in any of these lists was asked to predict minimum 40 past events to

> every chart posted here we would realise how much we know jyotish and

> thats the reason i repeat we do not know jyotish or atleast i do not

> know jyotish since i cannot do that. That is the reason i always repeat

> ' To Teach or even Discuss Jyotish with authority one must demonstrate

> ones predictive ability over a long period publicly, since that would

> show that the principles we use to predict are correct' - this was told

> to me by KNRao in one of the very first meetings after he came to know

> that i have started learning astrology. I always thought why he said

> that to me, was it a show off of his great predictive ability, ofcourse

> not since i realised that he was trying to say to me that in this world

> there would be 10,000 Gurus of Jyotish as everyone wants to teach & who

> would come up with wildest theories all of which would look Logical but

> how much that theory works would be demonstrated by repeated

> applicability of those principles in blind chart predictions.

[Prafulla] Blind charts have its own significance in terms of observing

consistent predictive application (else very often - we end up fixing event for

the wrong reasons) and it may lead to fallacious conclusion. I recall the

thousands of predictive case stuides used (including blind charts) by Shri VK

Choudhry to define the rules - which works consistently.

Blind charts, however have one pitfall. It may not reflect the quality of event,

as quality fo event may differ for variety of reasons (other than karmic

results, as we may construe from horoscopes). I will refer you to an interesting

article - i read long back (perhaps in 1996-97) on the karma and events. Most

vedic astrologers do feel that it is only karma (of this life or past life),

which eventually decides the event. Budhist karma theory (almost in line with

Hindu religious belief and Jain philosophy) - have attributed few factors

(Sampattis and Vipattis - Sampattis changes the bad effect and Vipattis changes

the good effects) for different quality of events (other than native's own

karma):

a. Gathi - (borne into good or bad families) - as it will change the quality of

opportunities. Native borne in good families, will attain more wealth with small

yoga and vice versa.

b. Upadhi - (beauty or appearance of the native) - as person with better

appearance will end up achieveing more - even with less powerful yoga or vice

versa

c. Kala (the time period in which we are borne) - person borne in good times

(e.g. country is peaceful, progressive, ruled by good kings etc) may end up

achieving more - even with less powerful yogas or vice versa

d. payoga - intelligent planning or foolish acts (as we often call it as free

will)

So blind charts with above variants can differ on quality of events. An

astrologer must be careful in working with many of such parameters. But these

factors does not reduces the utility of blind charts in arriving at conclusion

for validity of interpretation rules.

> If there is one piece of advice i can give from my disastrous journey in

> the initial years of astrology it is this

> 1) 'AVOID LISTS' 'USE IT FOR DATA GATHERING PURPOSE ONLY'

> 2) 'CATCH A GURU WHO IS A GOOD HUMAN BEING & CAPABLE'

> 3) 'ONE WOULD GO MILES JUST BY READING GOOD BOOKS though confusion would

> be part of the game

> 4) WHAT I LEARNT ONE YEAR SITTING ALONE WITH CHARTS WAS 50 TIMES MORE

> THAN 3 YRS IN LISTS & then i realised that maybe i have started to take

> the 1st step (out of millions) in understanding jyotish, maybe......

>

[Prafulla] - Jyotish lists or any forums may be a good medium for research

studies (for data accumulation as well as clarifications on various

interpretation rules) and also for learning from other community members'

experience (specially pitfalls of any specific method). Perhaps another use of

jyotish discussion forum can be " case studies " , which members may share with

each other.

Unfortunately, jyotish lists in past few years - have lost the charm. The

strength have turned into biggest weakness, and possibility of being carried

away ( by false impressions on individual members, methods etc for good packaged

presentations) have done big damage to the early careers in jyotish. of course,

experienced astrologers are always able to carry their balanced act. Moreover -

like any society, the self perceived conflicts have started corrupting the

framework for serious discussions.

In my opinion - young astrologers must not be tempted with flowing techniques

and must not lose focus from core fundamentals of jyotish. Books, case studies

and interaction with traditionalists is the best way forward for jyotish

learning.

Since the thread started around Shri Pradeep's predictive model (as exclusive

use of navamsa Tulya Rasi application - not just a method), I take this

opportunity to sincerely request Shri Pradeep to cover few issues in his

whitepaper (whenever his schedule fits for his professional preoccupation) -

a. Use of 8th bhava lord referred as kharesh (as it contradicts his conviction

of no D chakra)

b. Use of aspects in D charts (as it contradicts Kalyan Varma's reference - and

if partial aspects were indeed referred, then how they must be used in the

context)

c. Extending this Navamsa Tulya rasi to other D charts - if possible

d. Most important - if other interpretation model is fallacious, then they must

be indicating fallacious results - so this fallacy must be established - not by

shloka interpretation; but predictive application.

Another food for thought - Late Santhanam never wrote about outer planets in his

books. But has used very candidly in his case studies !! I recall, he predicted

fall of Deve Gowda goverment by using Pluto in all three charts - His muhurta

chart, Deve Gowda's personal chart and Narsimha rao's personal chart. Instead on

arguing - if Vedic astrology supports the use of outer planets - we must focus

on decoding its application, as an additional tool. But - each member may have

different perspective. Few wants to pick, whatever works; and few wants to

propogate - what is vedic or non vedic !!

Lastly - We must be open to new methods / interpretation rules - but must not

leave our focus from its predictive application (must not be varried away from

its shloka, vedic reference etc). The case study referred by you and Shri

Bharat's predictive success using Yogi / Avayogi (of course in addition to many

other predictive methods) is one of the best example of its working. Had we been

arguing on its vedic origin (or Parashari corelation) - we would have missed the

predictive use, as exhibited by Shri Bharat.

regards / Prafulla Gang

http://www.prafulla.net

Diplomacy - n. the patriotic act of lying for one's country / community.

************************************************

__________

FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!

Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth

July 20, 2007

Dear Prafulla ji

Thanks a lot or the mail and encouragement.

As you know we had many misconceptions,transits in nadi,partial

aspects many many.Even Kalyan Varmas Bhavanadhipai shloka talking

about lord of houses was misinterpreted as without ''varga charts''

one cannot make a step in jyotish.Such being the pligt of

todays ''research'' it is a need of the hour to expose the

discrepcies that have cerept in.

So 22nd drekkana,64th navamsha etc as points in the 8th of House of

Rashi chart will also be explained.

Now 5th navamsha,7th navamsha,elapsed navamshas etc are also not new

concepts and they have beeen used extensively.This will also be

explained.

Regds

Pradeep

, Prafulla Gang <jyotish

wrote:

>

> Dear Sunil John,

>

> Many thanks for sharing chart data.

>

> I must congratulate Shri Bharat for his brilliant predictive

application on the blind charts.

>

> Please read my reply underneath your comments:

>

> > 1) Before i give reply to the quiz, we must understand as to the

context

> > in which Shri K.N.Rao had given these two charts. It was on the

context

> > of Vargas and in the context of ONLY USING RASI CHART TO PREDICT

can be

> > UNFRUITFUL. I browsed through a post saying that Rao Saheb uses

only

> > Rasi chart to predict this is not true or hard to digest, as

otherwise

> > he would not have given this example to me.

>

> [Prafulla] Shri KN Rao has always advocated the use of D charts.

>

> >

> > 2) Then a thread where i saw that Rao Saheb says 'That person who

cannot

> > master Rasi chart cannot do astrology' is like a half truth.

Ofcourse we

> > need to first see things in Rasi successfully there is no debate

to this

> > & then cross check what out of the 10 things that we are seeing

in a

> > house are Actually happening in the concerned divisional- that is

the

> > method to predict & to master for us students as we progress in

our

> > journey.

> >

>

> [Prafulla] Many of those arguments were selective quotes, and were

misleading. Yes - Rasi chart is the key and D charts are for further

micro study. Currently I believe that - D charts can not deliver

beyond the strength of D1 chart (though I have observed many

astrologers successfully using D chart as independent one).

>

> > 3) It would have been the easiest thing to shut this discussion on

> > Vargas wherein charts of Twins could have been presented in the

first

> > stage but i did not do it, hence i presented a chart where 2

different

> > people born on Two Different Dates, born in 2 different cities

have the

> > same Rasi chart. Then how do we predict with just Rasi chart

only. With

> > Twins even the Karakamsha is the same whether we use it in the

Rasi

> > chart or Navamsa chart - that discussion is again useless in our

> > context of discussion.

> >

>

> [Prafulla] I think the confusion is not on the usefulness of varga

chart (between generally available model as suggested by many great

astrologers and Shri Pradeep's model) - but on the followings:

>

> a. If varga chakra exist as chart

> b. if varga chakra can be read like D1 chart (using yogas,

combinations, bhava placement, aspects etc) - most well known modern

authors have suggested the predictive applications using varga chakra

like D1 chart.

>

> Most well known modern authors have demonstrated with the use of

case studies the point a and b above.

>

> On another thread - I quoted Late Shri Santhanam's view - I must

repeat here in this context:

>

> While mentioning a case study - Late Shri Santhanam made a comment

in bold regarding Navamsa Tulya Rasi - " However, a word of caution is

necessary so that the use of navamsa is not restricted tho this

particular method only. In some cases - the 5th navamsa for example

> means 5th from Navamsa lagna in Navamsa chart. " he further

continues - " If the counting from Navamsa and other divisional charts

is not done this way, we will rediculously end up with each sign in

the Rasi being as a representative of many of the 16 divisions "

>

> In most discussion threads with Shri Pradeep in past few weeks - we

all observed his suggestion / propogation of use of Navamsa Tulya

Rasi as an exclusive method. But how about other D charts - like D10,

D3, D60, D81 etc?

>

> Let me come on another interesting basic issue on the calculation

of Kharesh (as used in Prasna marga / BPHS). The 8th lord of D3 chart

is Kharesh (22nd drekkna). Now is it not used as 8th bhava lord of D3

chart? What does it imply? IMO - it implies that - Bhava are referred

in D charts.

>

> >

> > It was mentioned in some threads that nowadays quizzes or

challenges

> > happen (this was mentioned in a sarcastic manner), i agree with

them and

> > hate it myself but when one has a mentor who hammers everyday in

my mind

> > that without blind charts attempt, one will not learn jyotish.

I feel

> > he has some truth as it is easy to give remedies and make

predictions

> > about the future as no one comes back with feedback - if any

astrologer

> > in any of these lists was asked to predict minimum 40 past events

to

> > every chart posted here we would realise how much we know jyotish

and

> > thats the reason i repeat we do not know jyotish or atleast i do

not

> > know jyotish since i cannot do that. That is the reason i always

repeat

> > ' To Teach or even Discuss Jyotish with authority one must

demonstrate

> > ones predictive ability over a long period publicly, since that

would

> > show that the principles we use to predict are correct' - this

was told

> > to me by KNRao in one of the very first meetings after he came to

know

> > that i have started learning astrology. I always thought why he

said

> > that to me, was it a show off of his great predictive ability,

ofcourse

> > not since i realised that he was trying to say to me that in this

world

> > there would be 10,000 Gurus of Jyotish as everyone wants to teach

& who

> > would come up with wildest theories all of which would look

Logical but

> > how much that theory works would be demonstrated by repeated

> > applicability of those principles in blind chart predictions.

>

> [Prafulla] Blind charts have its own significance in terms of

observing consistent predictive application (else very often - we end

up fixing event for the wrong reasons) and it may lead to fallacious

conclusion. I recall the thousands of predictive case stuides used

(including blind charts) by Shri VK Choudhry to define the rules -

which works consistently.

>

> Blind charts, however have one pitfall. It may not reflect the

quality of event, as quality fo event may differ for variety of

reasons (other than karmic results, as we may construe from

horoscopes). I will refer you to an interesting article - i read long

back (perhaps in 1996-97) on the karma and events. Most vedic

astrologers do feel that it is only karma (of this life or past

life), which eventually decides the event. Budhist karma theory

(almost in line with Hindu religious belief and Jain philosophy) -

have attributed few factors (Sampattis and Vipattis - Sampattis

changes the bad effect and Vipattis changes the good effects) for

different quality of events (other than native's own karma):

>

> a. Gathi - (borne into good or bad families) - as it will change

the quality of opportunities. Native borne in good families, will

attain more wealth with small yoga and vice versa.

>

> b. Upadhi - (beauty or appearance of the native) - as person with

better appearance will end up achieveing more - even with less

powerful yoga or vice versa

>

> c. Kala (the time period in which we are borne) - person borne in

good times (e.g. country is peaceful, progressive, ruled by good

kings etc) may end up achieving more - even with less powerful yogas

or vice versa

>

> d. payoga - intelligent planning or foolish acts (as we often call

it as free will)

>

> So blind charts with above variants can differ on quality of

events. An astrologer must be careful in working with many of such

parameters. But these factors does not reduces the utility of blind

charts in arriving at conclusion for validity of interpretation

rules.

>

> > If there is one piece of advice i can give from my disastrous

journey in

> > the initial years of astrology it is this

> > 1) 'AVOID LISTS' 'USE IT FOR DATA GATHERING PURPOSE ONLY'

> > 2) 'CATCH A GURU WHO IS A GOOD HUMAN BEING & CAPABLE'

> > 3) 'ONE WOULD GO MILES JUST BY READING GOOD BOOKS though

confusion would

> > be part of the game

> > 4) WHAT I LEARNT ONE YEAR SITTING ALONE WITH CHARTS WAS 50 TIMES

MORE

> > THAN 3 YRS IN LISTS & then i realised that maybe i have started

to take

> > the 1st step (out of millions) in understanding jyotish,

maybe......

> >

>

> [Prafulla] - Jyotish lists or any forums may be a good medium for

research studies (for data accumulation as well as clarifications on

various interpretation rules) and also for learning from other

community members' experience (specially pitfalls of any specific

method). Perhaps another use of jyotish discussion forum can be " case

studies " , which members may share with each other.

>

> Unfortunately, jyotish lists in past few years - have lost the

charm. The strength have turned into biggest weakness, and

possibility of being carried away ( by false impressions on

individual members, methods etc for good packaged presentations) have

done big damage to the early careers in jyotish. of course,

experienced astrologers are always able to carry their balanced act.

Moreover - like any society, the self perceived conflicts have

started corrupting the framework for serious discussions.

>

> In my opinion - young astrologers must not be tempted with flowing

techniques and must not lose focus from core fundamentals of jyotish.

Books, case studies and interaction with traditionalists is the best

way forward for jyotish learning.

>

> Since the thread started around Shri Pradeep's predictive model (as

exclusive use of navamsa Tulya Rasi application - not just a method),

I take this opportunity to sincerely request Shri Pradeep to cover

few issues in his whitepaper (whenever his schedule fits for his

professional preoccupation) -

>

> a. Use of 8th bhava lord referred as kharesh (as it contradicts his

conviction of no D chakra)

> b. Use of aspects in D charts (as it contradicts Kalyan Varma's

reference - and if partial aspects were indeed referred, then how

they must be used in the context)

> c. Extending this Navamsa Tulya rasi to other D charts - if possible

> d. Most important - if other interpretation model is fallacious,

then they must be indicating fallacious results - so this fallacy

must be established - not by shloka interpretation; but predictive

application.

>

> Another food for thought - Late Santhanam never wrote about outer

planets in his books. But has used very candidly in his case

studies !! I recall, he predicted fall of Deve Gowda goverment by

using Pluto in all three charts - His muhurta chart, Deve Gowda's

personal chart and Narsimha rao's personal chart. Instead on arguing -

if Vedic astrology supports the use of outer planets - we must focus

on decoding its application, as an additional tool. But - each member

may have different perspective. Few wants to pick, whatever works;

and few wants to propogate - what is vedic or non vedic !!

>

> Lastly - We must be open to new methods / interpretation rules -

but must not leave our focus from its predictive application (must

not be varried away from its shloka, vedic reference etc). The case

study referred by you and Shri Bharat's predictive success using

Yogi / Avayogi (of course in addition to many other predictive

methods) is one of the best example of its working. Had we been

arguing on its vedic origin (or Parashari corelation) - we would have

missed the predictive use, as exhibited by Shri Bharat.

>

> regards / Prafulla Gang

> http://www.prafulla.net

>

> Diplomacy - n. the patriotic act of lying for one's country /

community.

> ************************************************

>

> __________

> FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!

> Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth

>

July 20, 2007

Namaste Prafullaji

I only got 1.5 marks out of 4. I am really poor with deciding the number of

children and whether or not they shall be girl or a boy. I do know when Rahu

aspects the 5th house there are always more chances of a girl. Since Rahu

multiplies, it does bring in more than one girl.

If given a chance I always try and a see a blind chart. Most of the time I

do not attempt to change the time of birth (no birth rectification). For me,

the time given comes from Ma Shakti herself. I trust it. Plus my own

experience with other astrologers has been poor one when it comes to birth

time rectification. I have been suggested my birth time from 1:45 PM to 3:45

PM. I was born between 3:00 PM and 3:05 PM. 3 HMT watches were checked,

including the doctors to record my time.

Coming back to the topic, Sri Iyer's principles are simple, very well

defined and work! He has drawn them from Vedic Astrology and Nadi Shastras.

They are essentially Jyotish and not a new method. Sri Iyer uses D-charts

separately and has given many cases in his landmark book " New Techniques of

Prediction " - Part 1, 2, 3. We could enumerate these principles and apply

them to blind charts.

My own clarity of Sri Iyer's methods is limited and therefore, most of my

erroneous predictions are a result of my ignorance rather than that of the

method. The other day, one lady walked in my office with the chart:

lagna - Aquarius - Rahu in lagna

Sun and Mars - 6th house

Mercury, Venus and Ketu - 7th house

Jupiter - 9th house

Moon - Exalted in 4th house

Saturn debilitated in 3rd house

Rahu is Avayogi

Ketu is Yogi

She got married in Rahu-Venus at the age of 21 (running 22). It was a love

marriage. She asked me a simple question - When was her worst period in

marriage.

It is evident from the chart that there will be unhappiness in marriage,

since 7th lord in 6th and with Mars. Rahu-Sun appeared to me as the first

choice and I suggested the same. I was wrong. It was a fine period for her.

The major problem came in Jupiter-Mercury and Jupiter-Ketu. Everything

became normal in Jupiter-Venus. Mercury is in ketu's nakshatra and so is

Ketu. One is Yogi and other is Yogi's nakshatra. Mercury being the 5th lord

and 8th lord plays a dual role. Some may suggest that mooltrikona of Mercury

is in 8th house so it may act as well, but this does not work in every

chart. Mercury being the 5th lord gave her a love marriage. It should have

given mixed results. Yes, we can give explanations and justify now using

different methods, but, in front of a client who asks a simple question, our

assumptions can really make us go haywire.

I could see the lagnadhi yoga in her chart as well as Yogi effects and told

her though this was a problem but she would not face a break in marriage.

Truly, she did not have a break.

In my gurukul, I was taught to be aware of our ignorance. In Jyotish, our

ignorance is atleast 99% if not more. Yet we discuss matters with so much

ego and arrogance, that it is laughable. Instead, of being Swadharmis in

knowledge, there is leg cutting and pulling. Is it knowledge-upmanship or

ignorance upmanship?, I wonder.

Thanks and Regards

Bharat

On 7/20/07, Prafulla Gang <jyotish wrote:

>

> Dear Sunil John,

>

> Many thanks for sharing chart data.

>

> I must congratulate Shri Bharat for his brilliant predictive application

> on the blind charts.

>

> Please read my reply underneath your comments:

>

> > 1) Before i give reply to the quiz, we must understand as to the context

> > in which Shri K.N.Rao had given these two charts. It was on the context

> > of Vargas and in the context of ONLY USING RASI CHART TO PREDICT can be

> > UNFRUITFUL. I browsed through a post saying that Rao Saheb uses only

> > Rasi chart to predict this is not true or hard to digest, as otherwise

> > he would not have given this example to me.

>

> [Prafulla] Shri KN Rao has always advocated the use of D charts.

>

> >

> > 2) Then a thread where i saw that Rao Saheb says 'That person who cannot

> > master Rasi chart cannot do astrology' is like a half truth. Ofcourse we

> > need to first see things in Rasi successfully there is no debate to this

> > & then cross check what out of the 10 things that we are seeing in a

> > house are Actually happening in the concerned divisional- that is the

> > method to predict & to master for us students as we progress in our

> > journey.

> >

>

> [Prafulla] Many of those arguments were selective quotes, and were

> misleading. Yes - Rasi chart is the key and D charts are for further micro

> study. Currently I believe that - D charts can not deliver beyond the

> strength of D1 chart (though I have observed many astrologers successfully

> using D chart as independent one).

>

> > 3) It would have been the easiest thing to shut this discussion on

> > Vargas wherein charts of Twins could have been presented in the first

> > stage but i did not do it, hence i presented a chart where 2 different

> > people born on Two Different Dates, born in 2 different cities have the

> > same Rasi chart. Then how do we predict with just Rasi chart only. With

> > Twins even the Karakamsha is the same whether we use it in the Rasi

> > chart or Navamsa chart - that discussion is again useless in our

> > context of discussion.

> >

>

> [Prafulla] I think the confusion is not on the usefulness of varga chart

> (between generally available model as suggested by many great astrologers

> and Shri Pradeep's model) - but on the followings:

>

> a. If varga chakra exist as chart

> b. if varga chakra can be read like D1 chart (using yogas, combinations,

> bhava placement, aspects etc) - most well known modern authors have

> suggested the predictive applications using varga chakra like D1 chart.

>

> Most well known modern authors have demonstrated with the use of case

> studies the point a and b above.

>

> On another thread - I quoted Late Shri Santhanam's view - I must repeat

> here in this context:

>

> While mentioning a case study - Late Shri Santhanam made a comment in bold

> regarding Navamsa Tulya Rasi - " However, a word of caution is necessary so

> that the use of navamsa is not restricted tho this particular method only.

> In some cases - the 5th navamsa for example

> means 5th from Navamsa lagna in Navamsa chart. " he further continues - " If

> the counting from Navamsa and other divisional charts is not done this way,

> we will rediculously end up with each sign in the Rasi being as a

> representative of many of the 16 divisions "

>

> In most discussion threads with Shri Pradeep in past few weeks - we all

> observed his suggestion / propogation of use of Navamsa Tulya Rasi as an

> exclusive method. But how about other D charts - like D10, D3, D60, D81 etc?

>

> Let me come on another interesting basic issue on the calculation of

> Kharesh (as used in Prasna marga / BPHS). The 8th lord of D3 chart is

> Kharesh (22nd drekkna). Now is it not used as 8th bhava lord of D3 chart?

> What does it imply? IMO - it implies that - Bhava are referred in D charts.

>

> >

> > It was mentioned in some threads that nowadays quizzes or challenges

> > happen (this was mentioned in a sarcastic manner), i agree with them and

> > hate it myself but when one has a mentor who hammers everyday in my mind

> > that without blind charts attempt, one will not learn jyotish. I feel

> > he has some truth as it is easy to give remedies and make predictions

> > about the future as no one comes back with feedback - if any astrologer

> > in any of these lists was asked to predict minimum 40 past events to

> > every chart posted here we would realise how much we know jyotish and

> > thats the reason i repeat we do not know jyotish or atleast i do not

> > know jyotish since i cannot do that. That is the reason i always repeat

> > ' To Teach or even Discuss Jyotish with authority one must demonstrate

> > ones predictive ability over a long period publicly, since that would

> > show that the principles we use to predict are correct' - this was told

> > to me by KNRao in one of the very first meetings after he came to know

> > that i have started learning astrology. I always thought why he said

> > that to me, was it a show off of his great predictive ability, ofcourse

> > not since i realised that he was trying to say to me that in this world

> > there would be 10,000 Gurus of Jyotish as everyone wants to teach & who

> > would come up with wildest theories all of which would look Logical but

> > how much that theory works would be demonstrated by repeated

> > applicability of those principles in blind chart predictions.

>

> [Prafulla] Blind charts have its own significance in terms of observing

> consistent predictive application (else very often - we end up fixing event

> for the wrong reasons) and it may lead to fallacious conclusion. I recall

> the thousands of predictive case stuides used (including blind charts) by

> Shri VK Choudhry to define the rules - which works consistently.

>

> Blind charts, however have one pitfall. It may not reflect the quality of

> event, as quality fo event may differ for variety of reasons (other than

> karmic results, as we may construe from horoscopes). I will refer you to an

> interesting article - i read long back (perhaps in 1996-97) on the karma and

> events. Most vedic astrologers do feel that it is only karma (of this life

> or past life), which eventually decides the event. Budhist karma theory

> (almost in line with Hindu religious belief and Jain philosophy) - have

> attributed few factors (Sampattis and Vipattis - Sampattis changes the bad

> effect and Vipattis changes the good effects) for different quality of

> events (other than native's own karma):

>

> a. Gathi - (borne into good or bad families) - as it will change the

> quality of opportunities. Native borne in good families, will attain more

> wealth with small yoga and vice versa.

>

> b. Upadhi - (beauty or appearance of the native) - as person with better

> appearance will end up achieveing more - even with less powerful yoga or

> vice versa

>

> c. Kala (the time period in which we are borne) - person borne in good

> times (e.g. country is peaceful, progressive, ruled by good kings etc) may

> end up achieving more - even with less powerful yogas or vice versa

>

> d. payoga - intelligent planning or foolish acts (as we often call it as

> free will)

>

> So blind charts with above variants can differ on quality of events. An

> astrologer must be careful in working with many of such parameters. But

> these factors does not reduces the utility of blind charts in arriving at

> conclusion for validity of interpretation rules.

>

> > If there is one piece of advice i can give from my disastrous journey in

> > the initial years of astrology it is this

> > 1) 'AVOID LISTS' 'USE IT FOR DATA GATHERING PURPOSE ONLY'

> > 2) 'CATCH A GURU WHO IS A GOOD HUMAN BEING & CAPABLE'

> > 3) 'ONE WOULD GO MILES JUST BY READING GOOD BOOKS though confusion would

> > be part of the game

> > 4) WHAT I LEARNT ONE YEAR SITTING ALONE WITH CHARTS WAS 50 TIMES MORE

> > THAN 3 YRS IN LISTS & then i realised that maybe i have started to take

> > the 1st step (out of millions) in understanding jyotish, maybe......

> >

>

> [Prafulla] - Jyotish lists or any forums may be a good medium for research

> studies (for data accumulation as well as clarifications on various

> interpretation rules) and also for learning from other community members'

> experience (specially pitfalls of any specific method). Perhaps another use

> of jyotish discussion forum can be " case studies " , which members may share

> with each other.

>

> Unfortunately, jyotish lists in past few years - have lost the charm. The

> strength have turned into biggest weakness, and possibility of being carried

> away ( by false impressions on individual members, methods etc for good

> packaged presentations) have done big damage to the early careers in

> jyotish. of course, experienced astrologers are always able to carry their

> balanced act. Moreover - like any society, the self perceived conflicts have

> started corrupting the framework for serious discussions.

>

> In my opinion - young astrologers must not be tempted with flowing

> techniques and must not lose focus from core fundamentals of jyotish. Books,

> case studies and interaction with traditionalists is the best way forward

> for jyotish learning.

>

> Since the thread started around Shri Pradeep's predictive model (as

> exclusive use of navamsa Tulya Rasi application - not just a method), I take

> this opportunity to sincerely request Shri Pradeep to cover few issues in

> his whitepaper (whenever his schedule fits for his professional

> preoccupation) -

>

> a. Use of 8th bhava lord referred as kharesh (as it contradicts his

> conviction of no D chakra)

> b. Use of aspects in D charts (as it contradicts Kalyan Varma's reference

> - and if partial aspects were indeed referred, then how they must be used in

> the context)

> c. Extending this Navamsa Tulya rasi to other D charts - if possible

> d. Most important - if other interpretation model is fallacious, then they

> must be indicating fallacious results - so this fallacy must be established

> - not by shloka interpretation; but predictive application.

>

> Another food for thought - Late Santhanam never wrote about outer planets

> in his books. But has used very candidly in his case studies !! I recall, he

> predicted fall of Deve Gowda goverment by using Pluto in all three charts -

> His muhurta chart, Deve Gowda's personal chart and Narsimha rao's personal

> chart. Instead on arguing - if Vedic astrology supports the use of outer

> planets - we must focus on decoding its application, as an additional tool.

> But - each member may have different perspective. Few wants to pick,

> whatever works; and few wants to propogate - what is vedic or non vedic !!

>

> Lastly - We must be open to new methods / interpretation rules - but must

> not leave our focus from its predictive application (must not be varried

> away from its shloka, vedic reference etc). The case study referred by you

> and Shri Bharat's predictive success using Yogi / Avayogi (of course in

> addition to many other predictive methods) is one of the best example of its

> working. Had we been arguing on its vedic origin (or Parashari corelation) -

> we would have missed the predictive use, as exhibited by Shri Bharat.

>

> regards / Prafulla Gang

> http://www.prafulla.net

>

> Diplomacy - n. the patriotic act of lying for one's country / community.

> ************************************************

>

> ________

> FREE 3D EARTH SCREENSAVER - Watch the Earth right on your desktop!

> Check it out at http://www.inbox.com/earth

>

July 20, 2007

Dear Sri.Bharat,

I also follow Sri. Iyer s directions in astrology and his treatment of D

charts was simple and straight forward. His concept of new directions in

astrology like yogi and ava yogi also the dagda rasis gave us addtional tools.

But I found it difficult to follow the starter and ruler method for

decipehring dasa readings.If you have some experience kindly let me know so that

we can share some ideas.

thanking u and with regards,your s sincerely,

S.Subramanian.

Bharat - Hindu Astrology <astrologyhindu wrote: Namaste

Prafullaji