Fwd: [hc] Vedic astrology! Eh? Nothing Vedic about it--K N Rao

[Guest guest]

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

 

Shri Shankar Bharadwaj Khandawalliji,

Namaskar!

Thanks for your reply.

You have said, " It is not the way a fraud can be hatched, but the way

concepts evolve that matters.... " .

 

Shri K N Rao is supposed, as per his own claims, to be the only

astrologer who pleaded the case of Vedic astrology in the Supreme

court against all the odds!

It is really surprising that he has now recanted his own stand, after

realizing his mistake which he kept on committing for more than fifty

years!

There are quite a few members in this forum who are " shishyas " of

Shri K. N. Rao either directly or indirectly. Besides, there are

also quite a few members from forum here as

well. Since the veiws of Shri Rao about " Vedic astrology " being

anything but Vedic had appeared in forum

originally, I think it is better to ask those members to approach

Shri Rao and find out from him as to what " prayashchitam " he is going

to do about having misled and misguided the students of Bharatiya

Vidya Bhavan and his other shishyas for such a long time by

declaring predictive gimmicks as Vedic astrology when they are not!

 

What is all the more surprising is that the Journal of Astrology,

which is edited and published by Shri Rao himself, is still

advertising predictive gimmicks as Vedic astrology when the same

author/editor has realized his own mistake after a pretty long time!

I think it is a fit case under Consumer Protection Act for committing

a " fraud " on the common man deliberately.

With regards,

A K Kaul

 

hinducivilization , ShankaraBharadwaj

Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@> wrote:

>

> Pranam Sri Kaul ji,

>

> " I think it is proper to demand references in Samhitas because

> even " Allah Upanishad " is said to be an Upanishad by some people as

> per Swami Dayanada Saraswati in his Satyartha Prakash!à

Some " freindly

> neighbours " may as well say tomorrowà " Prophet Muhammad has been

> discussed in the Rigveda " ! We certainly will demand references! "

>

> It is not the way a fraud can be hatched, but the way concepts

evolve that matters. It is the evolution of ideas that needs to be

studied to establish whether something belongs to Vedic system, and

not their presence in " samhita " .

>

> Yes, someone can claim Allah Upanishad, by cooking up pieces from

other upanishads. But again, it is not samhita that proves or

disproves it - it is the network of concepts that are woven around

and their evolution that determines the validity. This way, no

isolated text does not get to be called authentic, unless we find the

idea to be consistent with the knowledge system overall.

>

> But going by samhita is a rather unwise, because many ideas

developed and are explained post samhita, which make a stronger base

for Veda mata. The whole set of darsanas for instance. It is not that

anyone of them is " found " in samhita - but they are " Vedic " darsanas

nevertheless.

>

>

> Moreover Samhita deals with certain subjects. Not all the sastras.

There are different texts for sastras. Even Jyotisha is not dealt

with in the samhita (you should find the theory in Vedanga but not in

Veda). By making samhita the point of reference, we are making a

mockery of the grand scheme of literature, by reducing it to one

authentic text. What applies to subjects like metallurgy, applies to

this subject too - you cannot find the terms like ayanamsha because

they have DEVELOPED over something. And that something is not

unrelated to what we find in Veda and subsequent texts.

>

> Most of the times it depends on what your mind is, rather than what

the text is. Much of what smriti says and dharma sastras say,

is " unvedic " because those ideas are not found in samhita. One can

easily disprove most of the Hindu ideas as unvedic following your

method. And it is for that reason that I call it invalid.

>

> As I mentioned earlier, the technical terms have to be found in the

corresponding texts. Only the basis of concepts can be found in older

literature.

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> jyotirved <jyotirved@>

> hinducivilization

> Cc: HinduCalendar ;

 

> Friday, December 5, 2008 8:35:31 PM

> [hc] Re: " Vedic astrology! Eh? Nothing Vedic about it " --K

N Rao

>

>

> Shri Shankar Bharadwaj-ji,

> Namaskar!

>

> Thanks for your comments/views.

>

> <And the objections are not new either, it is again the

> same obsession of demanding references in samhita for it to be

> " Vedic " .>

>

> I think it is proper to demand references in Samhitas because

> even " Allah Upanishad " is said to be an Upanishad by some people as

> per Swami Dayanada Saraswati in his Satyartha Prakash!à

Some " freindly

> neighbours " may as well say tomorrowà " Prophet Muhammad has been

> discussed in the Rigveda " ! We certainly will demand references!

>

> The main problem is that predictive gimmicks based on Mesha,

> Vrisha etc. Rashis; Mangal, Shani etc. dreaded planets; Vimshotari,

Yogini,

> Ashtotari etc. etc. 36 Dasha-Bhuktis besides Hora, Dreshkan and even

> Shashtyamsha etc. sub-divisions and Aapoklima, Kendra etc. Greek

terms etc. are

> being dubbed as Vedic astrology!à Since I have studied all the four

Vedas besides

> the àVedangas, I can say it with certainty that there is not even

the remotest

> possibility of any such terms being present in any of the Vedas or

the Vedangas

> either in letter or in spirit!

>

> In fact, prior to the Surya Sidhanta and Yavana Jatakam, we

> do not find any references to any of these terms in any of the

indigenous

> astronomical works either like Rik Jyotisham or Yajur Jyotisham

etc.à Even

> Atharva-Jyotisha and Atharva-Veda Parishishta, which are most

probably works of

> a much later date, do not talk anything about Mesha, Vrisha etc.

rashis, much

> less about all the Nabahsa and other innumerable yogas and Dasha-

bhuktis etc.

> etc.

>

> Thus if anybody calls these predictive gimmick as Vedic

> astrology, he/she is certainly doing the greatest injustice to the

Vedas as

> well the Vedic ethos, because, the Vedic spirit is entirely

against " bhagyavada " .à

> As such, we cannot say that demanding proofs for " Vedic

> astrology " being really Vedic is an obsession. It is the right and

duty of

> every sane Hindu.

> What is most baffling and even pathetic is that the Mesha,

> Vrisha etc. Rashis, as defined in the Puranas and even in the

Sidhantas are not

> the so called nirayana ones, as is being claimed by " Vedic

> astrologers " but those Pauranic and sidhantic rashis are (so called)

> Sayana rashis! It means that the so called Vedic Jyotish is not

even Pauranic

> or sidhantic but a bye product of fertile imagination of some

jyotishis, and

> must therefore be discarded at the earliest.

> The tail piece is that because of this very " Vedic

> astrology " , we are celebrating all our festivals and muhurtas on

wrong

> days, and more ironically, every " Hindu " is defending it!

> Hence my disdain for " Vedic astrology " !

> With regards,

> A K Kaul

>

 

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

 

Sushri Tripura Maliniji,

Namaskar!

Your post is quite dry and off the cuff stuff, without anything

either informative or worthwhile!

 

In the end of the long yarn, you have said, " I would also ask Kaul

ji to write directly to Shri Rao "

It may be news to you that I have met Shri Rao personally several

times when he was affiliaed to late Dr. B. V. Raman (via ICAS), whom

he called " the greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth century " . I

had given Shri Rao my ephemerides, like I gave to every other teacher

in the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, every year for his/their comments. We

have had personal discussions about mundane astrology and other

things way back in 1994. The " Controller of Examinations " of ICAS, a

retired High Court Judge of Delhi, wanted me to join the faculty of

Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, but I declined it thankfully.

My ephemerides then were a hybrid of Sayana and nirayana, under the

impression that the so called Sayana rashis were the ones propounded

by the Vedas!

 

Shri Rao, however, branched on his own later, as there was a clash of

personalities with BVR! You must be aware that BVR followed a

different Ayanamsha, and he swore by it!

During the conference of Panchanga standardisation in New Delhi, Shri

Rao did not attend it since, as per his own words, he did not know

anything about astronomy. In his place, Shri Kulshreshtha, a faculty

member of BVB and my neighbour in Delhi attended it!

I have personally " attended " several teaching sessions of Shri Rao

and quite a few of his predictions were very very off the mark!

 

You have also said, " and ask him (Rao) to clarify his (Kaul's)

doubts. I am sure he would throw this request in the dustbin as I

know KN Rao ji will not even deem Kaul ji fit to be answered!! "

 

That is the crux of the issue! I have addressed personal leters to

Shri Rao, besides several other astrologers, including BVR and

Gayatri Devi Vasudev etc. etc. It was only because of my letters to

Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan and other institutions that " Vedic astrology --

- the great fraud on the Vedas " , that Shri Rao has recanted his stand

that predictive gimmicks are Vedic! Ignorance of law is no excuse

and as Shri Rao is on record to have said that predictive astrology

cannot be called Vedic astrology. Having retired as a CAG of the GOI,

he cannot present to the world the same gimmicks as " Vedic astrology "

that he has recanted and disowned, to invite people to learn " Vedic

astrology " from him through his Journal of Astrology and other

means!

For your kind information, I may put it on record that all the " great

Vedic astrologers " know in their heart of hearts that predictive

gimmicks are anything but Vedic, however, they cannot admit it at

such a late stage since AAKHIR PAAPI PET KA SAWAL HAI!

That is why " Great Vedic astrologers " never dare reply any such

factual mails, since they know that they are treading on shifting

sands! It is only their " shishyas " and " chamchas " who flaunt their

ignorance under the impression that they are omniscient!

 

However, I would be least bothered about such cacaphony as predictive

gimmicks being Vedic but the only problem is that it is only because

of the fraud known as " Vedic astrology " that we are celebrating all

our festivals and muhurtas on wrong days! And I know that you know

that too but do not want to let down our false messiahs!

Dhanyavad.

A K Kaul

hinducivilization , Tripura Malini

<tripura_malini@> wrote:

>

> Dear Prashanth Nair ji and group,

>

> Why are we always on the defensive?? Why do

> we always need to explain to outsiders and fight with non-believers

as to ‘what

> is’ and ‘what not is’ contained in the Vedas. Do we take

every intruder to the

> place of worship in our house and show where our deities are and

explain why

> they’re there, what they’re doing there and what they mean to

us?

>

> I do not need to discuss basics in this elite

> group. It suffices to say that Vedas essentially cover ALL

knowledge, material

> and spiritual. PERIOD. There can be no argument on this unless

those who debate

> can prove their sound understanding of this eternal knowledge. Only

then they

> are eligible to debate on this. If we forgo this claim, we forgo

the basis of

> our existence as Hindus, as Bhartis and as propounders of SANATAN.

>

> The Vedas and Vedic literature are not mere

> scriptures or collection of books. This is the knowledge embedded

in our consciousness.

> This is something we are born with and we ‘know’. This simple

truth cannot be

> understood by an outsider.

>

> Vedas are veiled, symbolic and subtle, and

> require a special vision to understand and use them properly. Like

any advanced

> study in modern world, it has symbols and formulae and a master is

needed to

> unveil their in-depth meanings for a common man. All knowledge

flows from Vedas

> and all subjects are extensions of Vedas. That is why we have ample

proofs for

> all round scientific developments in ancient Indiain the

> fields of not only biology, physics, chemistry, maths, astronomy,

etc, but also

> biogenetics, surgery, medicine, aeronautics, alchemy, weapons and

machinery, etc.

> Much of this knowledge has either been already adopted or in stages

of research

> and understanding. Some of the principles used are still beyond the

> comprehension of modern science.

>

> This also includes the knowledge of

> astrology, which was covered under Vedanga. People like KN Rao ji

are elevated

> souls who realise the eternal truth and get crucified because of

that. People

> like Kaul ji have not understood the real meaning behind Rao ji’s

statements,

> but it is their motive to create misunderstanding in whatever is

being said by

> the masters and hence they latch on to words and interpret them in

their own

> ways. World is afraid of their success and they use all means †"

fair and

> unfair, to silence them. Why don’t they latch on to ‘Aham

Brahmasmi’ and start

> saying that this is absolute nonsense? To an average, unaware

person, this is

> one of the most untrue and heinous statement. One day they are

bound to fight

> our Mahavakyas which are beyond comprehension for such minds.

>

> Outsiders have always been in awe of our eternal

> knowledge and literature. They have time and again invaded us,

attacked us and

> carried away our rich heritage with them. Much of the precious

literature now

> lies in foreign hands. They try to decipher the meaning behind

these symbolic

> and subtle writings and present it in the form of half baked or

erroneous theories

> which we go on contesting for nothing.

>

> These invaders have also understood that

> there is another dimension needed to understand the depths of our

ancient

> literature, which they cannot hope to have, so they have started

the propaganda

> either to distort or falsify the knowledge. It is sad that many of

our own learned

> men have joined their forces to help them in this mission… ghar

ka bhedi lanka dhaye… for they are a little more aware than

> them and hence found to be helpful in their agenda. Most of our

knowledge they bring back as their

> own inventions and discoveries, and we are left to falsify their

claims. This

> blatant attempt to outrage our modesty has been going on and will

go on as

> undoubtedly we have treasures which are their envy.

>

> No one should be allowed to propound

> theories to refute what is given in ancient scriptures and no one

should be

> allowed to play with facts given therein. E.g we all know that

astronomy as a

> science is precisely given in Vedas of which some of the phenomenon

and principles

> were later proven by scientific techniques. Similarly, there are

many more such

> principles embedded in vedic knowledge which are yet to come to

light and if distorted,

> we would never be able to know the truth.

>

> And no one should be allowed to come in the

> garb of a learned person and mislead innocent people who do not

have in-depth

> knowledge and are vulnerable. If at all, they should showcase their

‘newly

> acquired enlightenment’ in the midst of those who have the

background and sound

> knowledge of our ancient systems. These disguised persons are

certainly more dangerous as sometimes they get a better audience than

others who are just shrugged off.

>

>

> I would also ask Kaul

> ji to write directly to Shri Rao and ask him to clarify his doubts.

I am sure he would throw this

> request in the dustbin as I know KN Rao ji will not even deem Kaul

ji fit to be

> answered!!

>

> Regards

> TRIPURA

>

>

> Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to

http://messenger./invite/

>

 

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

Resp. Kaul Ji,

Namaskar,

I just want to correct your msg (or your information ?) that Sh. KN

Rao was not CAG but DAG. CAG is a constitutional post and post of DAG

is related to only for a State which is under AG (Accountant General).

Thanks,

Yours truly,

Sanat

 

PS:

1 Sh Deshmukh Ji I am waiting for your response on my various

mails. I hope his health may be quite OK

2 Members may please share their views for interaction.

Otherwise there is no use of becoming a silent member and they will

never be able to enrich their knowledge or may clear doubts on the

shoulders of other members.

 

 

 

 

, " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

>

> hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> <jyotirved@> wrote:

>

> Sushri Tripura Maliniji,

> Namaskar!

> Your post is quite dry and off the cuff stuff, without anything

> either informative or worthwhile!

>

> In the end of the long yarn, you have said, " I would also ask Kaul

> ji to write directly to Shri Rao "

> It may be news to you that I have met Shri Rao personally several

> times when he was affiliaed to late Dr. B. V. Raman (via ICAS),

whom

> he called " the greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth century " .

I

> had given Shri Rao my ephemerides, like I gave to every other

teacher

> in the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, every year for his/their comments.

We

> have had personal discussions about mundane astrology and other

> things way back in 1994. The " Controller of Examinations " of ICAS,

a

> retired High Court Judge of Delhi, wanted me to join the faculty of

> Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, but I declined it thankfully.

> My ephemerides then were a hybrid of Sayana and nirayana, under

the

> impression that the so called Sayana rashis were the ones

propounded

> by the Vedas!

>

> Shri Rao, however, branched on his own later, as there was a clash

of

> personalities with BVR! You must be aware that BVR followed a

> different Ayanamsha, and he swore by it!

> During the conference of Panchanga standardisation in New Delhi,

Shri

> Rao did not attend it since, as per his own words, he did not know

> anything about astronomy. In his place, Shri Kulshreshtha, a

faculty

> member of BVB and my neighbour in Delhi attended it!

> I have personally " attended " several teaching sessions of Shri Rao

> and quite a few of his predictions were very very off the mark!

>

> You have also said, " and ask him (Rao) to clarify his (Kaul's)

> doubts. I am sure he would throw this request in the dustbin as I

> know KN Rao ji will not even deem Kaul ji fit to be answered!! "

>

> That is the crux of the issue! I have addressed personal leters to

> Shri Rao, besides several other astrologers, including BVR and

> Gayatri Devi Vasudev etc. etc. It was only because of my letters

to

> Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan and other institutions that " Vedic

astrology --

> - the great fraud on the Vedas " , that Shri Rao has recanted his

stand

> that predictive gimmicks are Vedic! Ignorance of law is no excuse

> and as Shri Rao is on record to have said that predictive astrology

> cannot be called Vedic astrology. Having retired as a CAG of the

GOI,

> he cannot present to the world the same gimmicks as " Vedic

astrology "

> that he has recanted and disowned, to invite people to learn " Vedic

> astrology " from him through his Journal of Astrology and other

> means!

> For your kind information, I may put it on record that all

the " great

> Vedic astrologers " know in their heart of hearts that predictive

> gimmicks are anything but Vedic, however, they cannot admit it at

> such a late stage since AAKHIR PAAPI PET KA SAWAL HAI!

> That is why " Great Vedic astrologers " never dare reply any such

> factual mails, since they know that they are treading on shifting

> sands! It is only their " shishyas " and " chamchas " who flaunt their

> ignorance under the impression that they are omniscient!

>

> However, I would be least bothered about such cacaphony as

predictive

> gimmicks being Vedic but the only problem is that it is only

because

> of the fraud known as " Vedic astrology " that we are celebrating all

> our festivals and muhurtas on wrong days! And I know that you know

> that too but do not want to let down our false messiahs!

> Dhanyavad.

> A K Kaul

> hinducivilization , Tripura Malini

> <tripura_malini@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Prashanth Nair ji and group,

> >

> > Why are we always on the defensive?? Why do

> > we always need to explain to outsiders and fight with non-

believers

> as to ‘what

> > is’ and ‘what not is’ contained in the Vedas. Do we take

> every intruder to the

> > place of worship in our house and show where our deities are and

> explain why

> > they’re there, what they’re doing there and what they mean to

> us?

> >

> > I do not need to discuss basics in this elite

> > group. It suffices to say that Vedas essentially cover ALL

> knowledge, material

> > and spiritual. PERIOD. There can be no argument on this unless

> those who debate

> > can prove their sound understanding of this eternal knowledge.

Only

> then they

> > are eligible to debate on this. If we forgo this claim, we forgo

> the basis of

> > our existence as Hindus, as Bhartis and as propounders of SANATAN.

> >

> > The Vedas and Vedic literature are not mere

> > scriptures or collection of books. This is the knowledge embedded

> in our consciousness.

> > This is something we are born with and we ‘know’. This simple

> truth cannot be

> > understood by an outsider.

> >

> > Vedas are veiled, symbolic and subtle, and

> > require a special vision to understand and use them properly.

Like

> any advanced

> > study in modern world, it has symbols and formulae and a master

is

> needed to

> > unveil their in-depth meanings for a common man. All knowledge

> flows from Vedas

> > and all subjects are extensions of Vedas. That is why we have

ample

> proofs for

> > all round scientific developments in ancient Indiain the

> > fields of not only biology, physics, chemistry, maths, astronomy,

> etc, but also

> > biogenetics, surgery, medicine, aeronautics, alchemy, weapons and

> machinery, etc.

> > Much of this knowledge has either been already adopted or in

stages

> of research

> > and understanding. Some of the principles used are still beyond

the

> > comprehension of modern science.

> >

> > This also includes the knowledge of

> > astrology, which was covered under Vedanga. People like KN Rao ji

> are elevated

> > souls who realise the eternal truth and get crucified because of

> that. People

> > like Kaul ji have not understood the real meaning behind Rao

ji’s

> statements,

> > but it is their motive to create misunderstanding in whatever is

> being said by

> > the masters and hence they latch on to words and interpret them

in

> their own

> > ways. World is afraid of their success and they use all means †"

> fair and

> > unfair, to silence them. Why don’t they latch on to ‘Aham

> Brahmasmi’ and start

> > saying that this is absolute nonsense? To an average, unaware

> person, this is

> > one of the most untrue and heinous statement. One day they are

> bound to fight

> > our Mahavakyas which are beyond comprehension for such minds.

> >

> > Outsiders have always been in awe of our eternal

> > knowledge and literature. They have time and again invaded us,

> attacked us and

> > carried away our rich heritage with them. Much of the precious

> literature now

> > lies in foreign hands. They try to decipher the meaning behind

> these symbolic

> > and subtle writings and present it in the form of half baked or

> erroneous theories

> > which we go on contesting for nothing.

> >

> > These invaders have also understood that

> > there is another dimension needed to understand the depths of our

> ancient

> > literature, which they cannot hope to have, so they have started

> the propaganda

> > either to distort or falsify the knowledge. It is sad that many

of

> our own learned

> > men have joined their forces to help them in this mission… ghar

> ka bhedi lanka dhaye… for they are a little more aware than

> > them and hence found to be helpful in their agenda. Most of our

> knowledge they bring back as their

> > own inventions and discoveries, and we are left to falsify their

> claims. This

> > blatant attempt to outrage our modesty has been going on and will

> go on as

> > undoubtedly we have treasures which are their envy.

> >

> > No one should be allowed to propound

> > theories to refute what is given in ancient scriptures and no one

> should be

> > allowed to play with facts given therein. E.g we all know that

> astronomy as a

> > science is precisely given in Vedas of which some of the

phenomenon

> and principles

> > were later proven by scientific techniques. Similarly, there are

> many more such

> > principles embedded in vedic knowledge which are yet to come to

> light and if distorted,

> > we would never be able to know the truth.

> >

> > And no one should be allowed to come in the

> > garb of a learned person and mislead innocent people who do not

> have in-depth

> > knowledge and are vulnerable. If at all, they should showcase

their

> ‘newly

> > acquired enlightenment’ in the midst of those who have the

> background and sound

> > knowledge of our ancient systems. These disguised persons are

> certainly more dangerous as sometimes they get a better audience

than

> others who are just shrugged off.

> >

> >

> > I would also ask Kaul

> > ji to write directly to Shri Rao and ask him to clarify his

doubts.

> I am sure he would throw this

> > request in the dustbin as I know KN Rao ji will not even deem

Kaul

> ji fit to be

> > answered!!

> >

> > Regards

> > TRIPURA

> >

> >

> > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to

> http://messenger./invite/

> >

>

> --- End forwarded message ---

>

[Guest guest]

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

 

Shri Shankar Bharadwaj Khandavalliji,

Namaskar!

You have said, " Sri AKK argues that it is a Greek import, and some

are arguing to the contrary. "

The point is not as to who is arguing what! The point is as to who

is supporting his/her arguments with proofs, and that also

incontrovertible!

My million dollar question is:

We do not find any Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis prior to the Surya

Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha! Nor do we find any mention of Mangal,

Shani etc. planets in any of the Vedas or the VJ or the YJ! A couple

of much later works known euphemisticaly as Atharva-Jyotisha and

Atharva-Veda-Parishishta do contain Mangal, Shani etc. planets but

even those works are suspiciously silent about Mesha, Vrisha etc.

rashis!

 

It has also been established by now by quite a few scholars through

their papers about Archaeo-astronomy that the works like Parashara

Sidhanta also did not contain any mention of Mesha, Vrisha etc.

rashis, even if there is mention of Mercury etc. planets in those

works!

 

Thus, if the " Vedic astrologers " say that Rashi based predictive

gimmicks were followed in India even prior to the Surya Sidhanta, how

on earth did those people calculate the longitudes of planets vis-a-

vis Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis?

 

If it is argued that there must have been some works that got lost,

Maya the mlechha would certainly have referred to some such work! But

Maya also has not said anywhere in ths SS that he got the planetary

knowledge from some Rishi or shastra or Veda. He has straightaway

established his direct link to Surya Bhagwan, without any

intermediaries! Don't you think that statement also to be highly

suspicious! After all, you do not learn planetary astronomy in a

jiffy, in spite of the fact that planetary astronomy of the SS is

anything but correct!

Then again the statement of Maya the mlechha that he got that

planetary knowledge at the fag end of Satya-yuga, that is millions of

years back, is also a patent lie! But " Vedic astrologers " being

blind as bats because of their tamoguni budhi, they will not see

these ploys and tricks of some Grecho-Chaldean astronomer, who

had " acclamatized " himself to the then Indian environment, and

prepared the Surya Sidhanta, only to hoodwink Indian masses! And he

has succeeded in his plans even beyond his own expectations!

 

Secondly, we also do not find any indigenous work about rashi based

predictive gimmicks prior to the Yavana Jatakam of Sphujidwaja! That

also cannot be just a coincidence! The only consolation in

Sphujidwaja's case is that he has not disguised himself as Surya

Bhakta! However, even there " Vedic astrologers " are going to all the

absurd lengths to " prove " that Sphujidwaja was some scholar from

Gujarat who had become a Yavana because of some curse! My God! What

a prepsterous lie!

 

Thirdly, don't you think it is the height of Tamoguna that in spite

of calling themselves devout Hindus, the entire Hindu community is

celebrating Makar Sankranti not on the shortest day of the year as

advised by all the Puranas and other shastras or even the Sidhantas,

but on some other days as dictated by Lahiriwalas or Ramanawalas etc.

etc.

Why on earth are you defending such blasphemies?

 

I hope, against hope, that you will reply this post point by point

instead of flying off at a tangent in some other direction and giving

an entiely different twist to the discussion.

With regards,

A K Kaul

 

 

 

 

hinducivilization , ShankaraBharadwaj

Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@> wrote:

>

> On one hand, you say " people " make " sweeping generalizations " , and

on the other you talk of " everything is in Vedas " as a syndrome. What

is it, if not making a " sweeping generalization " ? What is it, if not

your attempt to reduce any topic to an " attempt to link everything to

Vedas " ?

>

> " as for the so-called " evidence " , the burden of proof is on those

who

> would like to reduce the entire spectrum of Indic traditions down

to

> one set of books or one system of thought. not the other way

around. "

>

> It has been sufficiently discussed on this forum. And not once, it

has been done many times. Just because you woke up now, I cannot put

the content of all those posts for you here again.

>

> The point is not whether Veda has everything or whether it is the

origin of everything. The point is whether what we see in the name

of " Vedic astrology " is related to Veda or not, and for that matter

whether it is Indian in origin or not. Sri AKK argues that it is a

Greek import, and some are arguing to the contrary.

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> Jit Majumder <jitmajumder212@>

> hinducivilization

> Monday, December 8, 2008 1:22:37 PM

> [hc] Re: " Vedic astrology! Eh? Nothing Vedic about it " --K

N Rao

>

>

>

> <<<When something is related to Veda, it is. It is for you to see

> what evidence is presented, and refute it instead of vomiting your

> unhappiness. >>>

>

> when something truly is related to the vedas -- i have in the past

> and will in the future, say that it is related to the vedas --

after

> all the Vedas are a product of my people and my soil. and surely a

> lot of things are related to the vedas.

>

> But when something is not related to the vedas, i have in the past

> and will in the future say that it is NOT related to and NOT

> originating from the vedas, and there are a lot of things

throughout

> the length and breadth of this land -- infinitely rich and varied,

> and oftentimes much more ancient than the first vedic shlokas --

NOT

> related to the vedas -- and something which -- despite the

> vainglorious and obnoxious claims made by self-appointed neo-vedics

> of today -- was recognised and admitted by the ancient vedic texts

> and the aryan peoples themselves.

>

> surprisingly, (or is it?)being a follower of a non-vedic tradition

> whose roots preceed the oldest vedeic texts and vedic tribes, and

> coming from that part of India known from the beginning for its

> distinct non-vedic, rich spiritual traditions, I -- for one -- see

it

> proper and fit to protest against the attempt to reduce the

> term " vedic " to a generic, vague " anything-and- everything " term

with

> no specifications and boundaries -- and that is a service to

> things " vedic " , and an intellectual balance and sense of

proportion --

> which I repeatedly miss to see in many self-appointed, though

hardly

> qualified, defenders of things " vedic " .

>

> Indians and Indic spiritual traditions, needs such " advocates "

> of " vedic " spirituality as much as they need people who always

trace

> evrything in a linear manner to one personality, one origin, one

> scripture, one tradition or one set of books. for it is the same

> disease of " one-ness " .

>

> as for the so-called " evidence " , the burden of proof is on those

who

> would like to reduce the entire spectrum of Indic traditions down

to

> one set of books or one system of thought. not the other way

around.

> and the minimum requirement of self-appointed " vedic " flagholders

> should be that they be capable of using the term " evidence " where

it

> is properly deserved. or do they use every word in their vocabulary

> in the same indiscriminate and callous way as they do the

> term " vedic " ?

>

> only the matter is that in the past also, this particular segment

> of " vedic " people have always asked us to " see " the " evidence " that

> is " presented " , without specifying which and which that " evidence "

is

> meant to be, or without succeeding even once to actually *present*

> the *evidences* -- to the point. unless of course it is in the form

> of tortous and twisted interpretations and explanations.

>

> I don't think you are capable of even that, going by the assertions

> superficially disguised as " arguments " you have presented to make

> a " vedic " case in the past. but like many " vedic " people, you do

have

> the uncontrollable compulsion of just wanting to have the last word

> to say.

>

> my " unhappiness " is -- to use your own language for once -- is

*your

> understanding* . this is exactly why I had talked about projection.

I

> am in reality, supremely happy whenever I can attribute to

something

> a " vedic " origin -- but of course only if the truth allows me to.

> my " unhappiness " , if any -- at the brazen and prejudiced attempts

of

> many " vedic " flagholders to undermine and discredit other ancient

> streams and traditions and impose " vedic " hegemony on each and

> everything they can find in India -- is a part of the same

happiness -

> - maybe the inverse side.

>

> <<<You try to make a portrait of people and strive to establish

> those, without coming to the point.>>>

>

> I dont have to *try*. A person always does it for himself -- when

he

> acts out his own prejudices - without coming to a point of his own

> and also without meeting any point of mine with a satisfactory

> counterpoint -- except with vainglorious, uninformed, unqualified

> assertions.

>

> <<<If you are so interested in discussing the syndromes I have, you

> can do it offline. But for now understand that it is you who are

> trying to do projection.> >>

>

> Firstly, I am not *interested* in discussing anyone's syndromes.

But

> will definitely feel free to make observations about any syndrome

> publicly, if those syndromes are presented before me uninvited and

in-

> your-face.

> Secondly, these are not syndromes that only you have -- as a

> seperate, specific individual. it is the syndrome of a *section* or

> *group* of people, in India and abroad, practicing Hinduism or

maybe

> any other " ism " , or just dabbling in Hindusim as an intellectual

> topic.

> Whether that syndrome expresses itself the way it does in you or in

> writers like Stephen " vedic " Knapp, or the way it expresses itself

in x-

> tian dominionists (with their everything-is- from-the- bible

fetish),

> or brahminic dominionists here in India -- it is basically the same

> disease or handicap -- a narrow linear " one-point-of- origin-in-

only-

> one-route " mental process -- that will always seek to " prove " that

> there is really nothing worthwhile or original outside that " one

> origin " or " one path " . Thus do they seek to reduce and package

Indic

> spirituality and India -- into one single monochromatic, homogenous

> entity.

>

> The sad thing is -- that such people are under the impression that

> all the while, they are advocating a case for the Indic traditions.

>

> That is why in the past I have warned many people -- that those

> who 'officially " are the flagholders of the AIT are not the

> only " aryan supremacists " . They are not the only ones to be

careful

> of. You dont really have to believe or propagate that the aryans

came

> dashing in from abroad, in order to be an AIT proponent.

>

> There are also crypto aryan/vedic supremacists born on the indian

> soil, and externally showing themselves as staunch, traditional

vedic

> hindus -- who have nonetheless -- because of the century-old

> propaganda -- subconsciously internalised the same fundamental

view --

> that India and everything Indic started with the start of " vedas "

and

> there was nothing original or worthwhile before those texts were

> composed on the banks of the Saraswati, and there were no spiritual

> traditions or thoughts before the rise of the aryan tribes, and

> everything Indic is equal to " vedic " .

>

> So, I dont think I am obliged to " go offline " to expose

> these " vedics " and their " vedic " fetish. I always prefer on-line --

> to protest against any attempt at such damaging and falsified

> reductionism of the entire rich and varied spectrum of Indic

> traditions to a single label -- stripping it off all its context

and

> meaning; and on the other hand, consciously undermining,

discrediting

> and derecognizing the originality, novelty, dignity and independent

> character and evolution of all other pre-vedic and post-vedic non-

> arya Indic traditions and cultures. and imposing a " vedic " hegemony

> on them with pseudo-scholarship.

>

> At least the lack of a sense of proportion and perspective of

people

> like Stephen " vedic " Knapp or Rodney " vedic " Lingham can be

understood --

> given their backgrounds. They need a fad for themselves, to replace

> their erstwhile bible fads. But who can account for born and bred

> Indians like you? Maybe that's where the discussion of syndromes

come

> in.

>

>

> <<<How is this post related to the topic of the thread?>>>

>

> Exactly the way your post -- to which this post is a response --

> is " related " to the topic of the thread. Can't put up? fine, then

> shut up.

> because next time, I may just specifically come up with Indic

> traditions, starting from north to south, or west to east -- one by

> one, and ask you to give us " evidence " that those are of " vedic "

> origin, or founded by " vedic " people. and I will keep insisting

with

> the whole forum as witness, till you come up with " evidence " or

throw

> up your hands. this time, I will just let you hold your peace and

> save your " vedic " face -- online.

>

> I have said it earlier, and I will say it again -- if you really

> fancy yourself as a defender and inheritor of the great Indic

> tradition, and not just some " vedic " stream of it -- then do learn

to

> read the writings of Time itself -- spread out all across this land

> in earth and stone, in fragments and bones, in living rituals and

> festivals, in symbols and legends. Dont just dwell in the ink-

writing

> of texts.

> Your " vedic " knowledge of the evolution of Indic traditions

> traditions, sir, is just *bookish*. Founded on a post-reformation

> *blind-spot* .

>

> -- thanks, Jit Majumder.

>

> hinducivilization, ShankaraBharadwaj

> Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ ...> wrote:

> >

> > You try to make a portrait of people and strive to establish

those,

> without coming to the point. If you are so interested in discussing

> the syndromes I have, you can do it offline. But for now understand

> that it is you who are trying to do projection.

> >

>

 

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

Dear Jain Sahib,

Namaskar!

Thanks for the post.

<I just want to correct your msg (or your information ?) that Sh. KN

Rao was not CAG but DAG>

 

During a lecture session in Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Shri Rao was

introduced as " the Raman of North India " and it was said that he had

retired as Comptroller and Auditor General of Central Government.

Even during his tour to the US of A, his " papers " carried an

introduction to that effect.

With regards,

A K Kaul

 

 

 

 

, " sanat2221 "

<sanatkumar_jain wrote:

>

> Resp. Kaul Ji,

> Namaskar,

> I just want to correct your msg (or your information ?) that Sh. KN

> Rao was not CAG but DAG. CAG is a constitutional post and post of

DAG

> is related to only for a State which is under AG (Accountant

General).

> Thanks,

> Yours truly,

> Sanat

>

> PS:

> 1 Sh Deshmukh Ji I am waiting for your response on my various

> mails. I hope his health may be quite OK

> 2 Members may please share their views for interaction.

> Otherwise there is no use of becoming a silent member and they will

> never be able to enrich their knowledge or may clear doubts on the

> shoulders of other members.

>

>

>

>

> , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> <jyotirved@> wrote:

> >

> > hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> >

> > Sushri Tripura Maliniji,

> > Namaskar!

> > Your post is quite dry and off the cuff stuff, without anything

> > either informative or worthwhile!

> >

> > In the end of the long yarn, you have said, " I would also ask Kaul

> > ji to write directly to Shri Rao "

> > It may be news to you that I have met Shri Rao personally several

> > times when he was affiliaed to late Dr. B. V. Raman (via ICAS),

> whom

> > he called " the greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth

century " .

> I

> > had given Shri Rao my ephemerides, like I gave to every other

> teacher

> > in the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, every year for his/their

comments.

> We

> > have had personal discussions about mundane astrology and other

> > things way back in 1994. The " Controller of Examinations " of

ICAS,

> a

> > retired High Court Judge of Delhi, wanted me to join the faculty

of

> > Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, but I declined it thankfully.

> > My ephemerides then were a hybrid of Sayana and nirayana, under

> the

> > impression that the so called Sayana rashis were the ones

> propounded

> > by the Vedas!

> >

> > Shri Rao, however, branched on his own later, as there was a

clash

> of

> > personalities with BVR! You must be aware that BVR followed a

> > different Ayanamsha, and he swore by it!

> > During the conference of Panchanga standardisation in New Delhi,

> Shri

> > Rao did not attend it since, as per his own words, he did not

know

> > anything about astronomy. In his place, Shri Kulshreshtha, a

> faculty

> > member of BVB and my neighbour in Delhi attended it!

> > I have personally " attended " several teaching sessions of Shri

Rao

> > and quite a few of his predictions were very very off the mark!

> >

> > You have also said, " and ask him (Rao) to clarify his (Kaul's)

> > doubts. I am sure he would throw this request in the dustbin as I

> > know KN Rao ji will not even deem Kaul ji fit to be answered!! "

> >

> > That is the crux of the issue! I have addressed personal leters

to

> > Shri Rao, besides several other astrologers, including BVR and

> > Gayatri Devi Vasudev etc. etc. It was only because of my letters

> to

> > Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan and other institutions that " Vedic

> astrology --

> > - the great fraud on the Vedas " , that Shri Rao has recanted his

> stand

> > that predictive gimmicks are Vedic! Ignorance of law is no

excuse

> > and as Shri Rao is on record to have said that predictive

astrology

> > cannot be called Vedic astrology. Having retired as a CAG of the

> GOI,

> > he cannot present to the world the same gimmicks as " Vedic

> astrology "

> > that he has recanted and disowned, to invite people to

learn " Vedic

> > astrology " from him through his Journal of Astrology and other

> > means!

> > For your kind information, I may put it on record that all

> the " great

> > Vedic astrologers " know in their heart of hearts that predictive

> > gimmicks are anything but Vedic, however, they cannot admit it at

> > such a late stage since AAKHIR PAAPI PET KA SAWAL HAI!

> > That is why " Great Vedic astrologers " never dare reply any such

> > factual mails, since they know that they are treading on shifting

> > sands! It is only their " shishyas " and " chamchas " who flaunt

their

> > ignorance under the impression that they are omniscient!

> >

> > However, I would be least bothered about such cacaphony as

> predictive

> > gimmicks being Vedic but the only problem is that it is only

> because

> > of the fraud known as " Vedic astrology " that we are celebrating

all

> > our festivals and muhurtas on wrong days! And I know that you

know

> > that too but do not want to let down our false messiahs!

> > Dhanyavad.

> > A K Kaul

> > hinducivilization , Tripura Malini

> > <tripura_malini@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Prashanth Nair ji and group,

> > >

> > > Why are we always on the defensive?? Why do

> > > we always need to explain to outsiders and fight with non-

> believers

> > as to ‘what

> > > is’ and ‘what not is’ contained in the Vedas. Do we take

> > every intruder to the

> > > place of worship in our house and show where our deities are

and

> > explain why

> > > they’re there, what they’re doing there and what they mean

to

> > us?

> > >

> > > I do not need to discuss basics in this elite

> > > group. It suffices to say that Vedas essentially cover ALL

> > knowledge, material

> > > and spiritual. PERIOD. There can be no argument on this unless

> > those who debate

> > > can prove their sound understanding of this eternal knowledge.

> Only

> > then they

> > > are eligible to debate on this. If we forgo this claim, we

forgo

> > the basis of

> > > our existence as Hindus, as Bhartis and as propounders of

SANATAN.

> > >

> > > The Vedas and Vedic literature are not mere

> > > scriptures or collection of books. This is the knowledge

embedded

> > in our consciousness.

> > > This is something we are born with and we ‘know’. This

simple

> > truth cannot be

> > > understood by an outsider.

> > >

> > > Vedas are veiled, symbolic and subtle, and

> > > require a special vision to understand and use them properly.

> Like

> > any advanced

> > > study in modern world, it has symbols and formulae and a master

> is

> > needed to

> > > unveil their in-depth meanings for a common man. All knowledge

> > flows from Vedas

> > > and all subjects are extensions of Vedas. That is why we have

> ample

> > proofs for

> > > all round scientific developments in ancient Indiain the

> > > fields of not only biology, physics, chemistry, maths,

astronomy,

> > etc, but also

> > > biogenetics, surgery, medicine, aeronautics, alchemy, weapons

and

> > machinery, etc.

> > > Much of this knowledge has either been already adopted or in

> stages

> > of research

> > > and understanding. Some of the principles used are still beyond

> the

> > > comprehension of modern science.

> > >

> > > This also includes the knowledge of

> > > astrology, which was covered under Vedanga. People like KN Rao

ji

> > are elevated

> > > souls who realise the eternal truth and get crucified because

of

> > that. People

> > > like Kaul ji have not understood the real meaning behind Rao

> ji’s

> > statements,

> > > but it is their motive to create misunderstanding in whatever

is

> > being said by

> > > the masters and hence they latch on to words and interpret them

> in

> > their own

> > > ways. World is afraid of their success and they use all means

†"

> > fair and

> > > unfair, to silence them. Why don’t they latch on to ‘Aham

> > Brahmasmi’ and start

> > > saying that this is absolute nonsense? To an average, unaware

> > person, this is

> > > one of the most untrue and heinous statement. One day they are

> > bound to fight

> > > our Mahavakyas which are beyond comprehension for such minds.

> > >

> > > Outsiders have always been in awe of our eternal

> > > knowledge and literature. They have time and again invaded us,

> > attacked us and

> > > carried away our rich heritage with them. Much of the precious

> > literature now

> > > lies in foreign hands. They try to decipher the meaning behind

> > these symbolic

> > > and subtle writings and present it in the form of half baked or

> > erroneous theories

> > > which we go on contesting for nothing.

> > >

> > > These invaders have also understood that

> > > there is another dimension needed to understand the depths of

our

> > ancient

> > > literature, which they cannot hope to have, so they have

started

> > the propaganda

> > > either to distort or falsify the knowledge. It is sad that many

> of

> > our own learned

> > > men have joined their forces to help them in this mission…

ghar

> > ka bhedi lanka dhaye… for they are a little more aware than

> > > them and hence found to be helpful in their agenda. Most of

our

> > knowledge they bring back as their

> > > own inventions and discoveries, and we are left to falsify

their

> > claims. This

> > > blatant attempt to outrage our modesty has been going on and

will

> > go on as

> > > undoubtedly we have treasures which are their envy.

> > >

> > > No one should be allowed to propound

> > > theories to refute what is given in ancient scriptures and no

one

> > should be

> > > allowed to play with facts given therein. E.g we all know that

> > astronomy as a

> > > science is precisely given in Vedas of which some of the

> phenomenon

> > and principles

> > > were later proven by scientific techniques. Similarly, there

are

> > many more such

> > > principles embedded in vedic knowledge which are yet to come to

> > light and if distorted,

> > > we would never be able to know the truth.

> > >

> > > And no one should be allowed to come in the

> > > garb of a learned person and mislead innocent people who do not

> > have in-depth

> > > knowledge and are vulnerable. If at all, they should showcase

> their

> > ‘newly

> > > acquired enlightenment’ in the midst of those who have the

> > background and sound

> > > knowledge of our ancient systems. These disguised persons are

> > certainly more dangerous as sometimes they get a better audience

> than

> > others who are just shrugged off.

> > >

> > >

> > > I would also ask Kaul

> > > ji to write directly to Shri Rao and ask him to clarify his

> doubts.

> > I am sure he would throw this

> > > request in the dustbin as I know KN Rao ji will not even deem

> Kaul

> > ji fit to be

> > > answered!!

> > >

> > > Regards

> > > TRIPURA

> > >

> > >

> > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to

> > http://messenger./invite/

> > >

> >

> > --- End forwarded message ---

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Kaul ji

Here atleast u dont distorted facts i blv ,it is what my information too .

 

He was retired as CAG the most senior position and he was posted in various headquarters in states as a part of his job and tenure in diffrnt capacity and he passed the administrativ services exam with flying colors b4 joining to this service .

 

regrds sreedhar

, "Avtar Krishen Kaul" <jyotirved wrote:>> Dear Jain Sahib,> Namaskar!> Thanks for the post.> <I just want to correct your msg (or your information ?) that Sh. KN > Rao was not CAG but DAG>> > During a lecture session in Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Shri Rao was > introduced as "the Raman of North India" and it was said that he had > retired as Comptroller and Auditor General of Central Government.> Even during his tour to the US of A, his "papers" carried an > introduction to that effect.> With regards,> A K Kaul> > > > > , "sanat2221" > sanatkumar_jain@ wrote:> >> > Resp. Kaul Ji,> > Namaskar,> > I just want to correct your msg (or your information ?) that Sh. KN > > Rao was not CAG but DAG. CAG is a constitutional post and post of > DAG > > is related to only for a State which is under AG (Accountant > General).> > Thanks,> > Yours truly,> > Sanat> > > > PS:> > 1 Sh Deshmukh Ji I am waiting for your response on my various > > mails. I hope his health may be quite OK> > 2 Members may please share their views for interaction. > > Otherwise there is no use of becoming a silent member and they will > > never be able to enrich their knowledge or may clear doubts on the > > shoulders of other members.> > > > > > > > > > , "Avtar Krishen Kaul" > > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > >> > > hinducivilization , "Avtar Krishen Kaul" > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > > > Sushri Tripura Maliniji,> > > Namaskar!> > > Your post is quite dry and off the cuff stuff, without anything > > > either informative or worthwhile!> > > > > > In the end of the long yarn, you have said, "I would also ask Kaul> > > ji to write directly to Shri Rao"> > > It may be news to you that I have met Shri Rao personally several > > > times when he was affiliaed to late Dr. B. V. Raman (via ICAS), > > whom > > > he called "the greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth > century". > > I > > > had given Shri Rao my ephemerides, like I gave to every other > > teacher > > > in the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, every year for his/their > comments. > > We > > > have had personal discussions about mundane astrology and other > > > things way back in 1994. The "Controller of Examinations" of > ICAS, > > a > > > retired High Court Judge of Delhi, wanted me to join the faculty > of > > > Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, but I declined it thankfully. > > > My ephemerides then were a hybrid of Sayana and nirayana, under > > the > > > impression that the so called Sayana rashis were the ones > > propounded > > > by the Vedas! > > > > > > Shri Rao, however, branched on his own later, as there was a > clash > > of > > > personalities with BVR! You must be aware that BVR followed a > > > different Ayanamsha, and he swore by it!> > > During the conference of Panchanga standardisation in New Delhi, > > Shri > > > Rao did not attend it since, as per his own words, he did not > know > > > anything about astronomy. In his place, Shri Kulshreshtha, a > > faculty > > > member of BVB and my neighbour in Delhi attended it!> > > I have personally "attended" several teaching sessions of Shri > Rao > > > and quite a few of his predictions were very very off the mark!> > > > > > You have also said, "and ask him (Rao) to clarify his (Kaul's) > > > doubts. I am sure he would throw this request in the dustbin as I > > > know KN Rao ji will not even deem Kaul ji fit to be answered!!"> > > > > > That is the crux of the issue! I have addressed personal leters > to > > > Shri Rao, besides several other astrologers, including BVR and > > > Gayatri Devi Vasudev etc. etc. It was only because of my letters > > to > > > Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan and other institutions that "Vedic > > astrology --> > > - the great fraud on the Vedas", that Shri Rao has recanted his > > stand > > > that predictive gimmicks are Vedic! Ignorance of law is no > excuse > > > and as Shri Rao is on record to have said that predictive > astrology > > > cannot be called Vedic astrology. Having retired as a CAG of the > > GOI, > > > he cannot present to the world the same gimmicks as "Vedic > > astrology" > > > that he has recanted and disowned, to invite people to > learn "Vedic > > > astrology" from him through his Journal of Astrology and other > > > means! > > > For your kind information, I may put it on record that all > > the "great > > > Vedic astrologers" know in their heart of hearts that predictive > > > gimmicks are anything but Vedic, however, they cannot admit it at > > > such a late stage since AAKHIR PAAPI PET KA SAWAL HAI!> > > That is why "Great Vedic astrologers" never dare reply any such > > > factual mails, since they know that they are treading on shifting > > > sands! It is only their "shishyas" and "chamchas" who flaunt > their > > > ignorance under the impression that they are omniscient!> > > > > > However, I would be least bothered about such cacaphony as > > predictive > > > gimmicks being Vedic but the only problem is that it is only > > because > > > of the fraud known as "Vedic astrology" that we are celebrating > all > > > our festivals and muhurtas on wrong days! And I know that you > know > > > that too but do not want to let down our false messiahs!> > > Dhanyavad.> > > A K Kaul > > > hinducivilization , Tripura Malini > > > <tripura_malini@> wrote:> > > >> > > > Dear Prashanth Nair ji and group,> > > > > > > > Why are we always on the defensive?? Why do> > > > we always need to explain to outsiders and fight with non-> > believers > > > as to ‘what> > > > is’ and ‘what not is’ contained in the Vedas. Do we take > > > every intruder to the> > > > place of worship in our house and show where our deities are > and > > > explain why> > > > they’re there, what they’re doing there and what they mean > to > > > us?> > > > > > > > I do not need to discuss basics in this elite> > > > group. It suffices to say that Vedas essentially cover ALL > > > knowledge, material> > > > and spiritual. PERIOD. There can be no argument on this unless > > > those who debate> > > > can prove their sound understanding of this eternal knowledge. > > Only > > > then they> > > > are eligible to debate on this. If we forgo this claim, we > forgo > > > the basis of> > > > our existence as Hindus, as Bhartis and as propounders of > SANATAN.> > > > > > > > The Vedas and Vedic literature are not mere> > > > scriptures or collection of books. This is the knowledge > embedded > > > in our consciousness.> > > > This is something we are born with and we ‘know’. This > simple > > > truth cannot be> > > > understood by an outsider. > > > > > > > > Vedas are veiled, symbolic and subtle, and> > > > require a special vision to understand and use them properly. > > Like > > > any advanced> > > > study in modern world, it has symbols and formulae and a master > > is > > > needed to> > > > unveil their in-depth meanings for a common man. All knowledge > > > flows from Vedas> > > > and all subjects are extensions of Vedas. That is why we have > > ample > > > proofs for> > > > all round scientific developments in ancient Indiain the> > > > fields of not only biology, physics, chemistry, maths, > astronomy, > > > etc, but also> > > > biogenetics, surgery, medicine, aeronautics, alchemy, weapons > and > > > machinery, etc.> > > > Much of this knowledge has either been already adopted or in > > stages > > > of research> > > > and understanding. Some of the principles used are still beyond > > the> > > > comprehension of modern science. > > > > > > > > This also includes the knowledge of> > > > astrology, which was covered under Vedanga. People like KN Rao > ji > > > are elevated> > > > souls who realise the eternal truth and get crucified because > of > > > that. People> > > > like Kaul ji have not understood the real meaning behind Rao > > ji’s > > > statements,> > > > but it is their motive to create misunderstanding in whatever > is > > > being said by> > > > the masters and hence they latch on to words and interpret them > > in > > > their own> > > > ways. World is afraid of their success and they use all means > â€" > > > fair and> > > > unfair, to silence them. Why don’t they latch on to ‘Aham > > > Brahmasmi’ and start> > > > saying that this is absolute nonsense? To an average, unaware > > > person, this is> > > > one of the most untrue and heinous statement. One day they are > > > bound to fight> > > > our Mahavakyas which are beyond comprehension for such minds.> > > > > > > > Outsiders have always been in awe of our eternal> > > > knowledge and literature. They have time and again invaded us, > > > attacked us and> > > > carried away our rich heritage with them. Much of the precious > > > literature now> > > > lies in foreign hands. They try to decipher the meaning behind > > > these symbolic> > > > and subtle writings and present it in the form of half baked or > > > erroneous theories> > > > which we go on contesting for nothing. > > > > > > > > These invaders have also understood that> > > > there is another dimension needed to understand the depths of > our > > > ancient> > > > literature, which they cannot hope to have, so they have > started > > > the propaganda> > > > either to distort or falsify the knowledge. It is sad that many > > of > > > our own learned> > > > men have joined their forces to help them in this mission… > ghar > > > ka bhedi lanka dhaye… for they are a little more aware than> > > > them and hence found to be helpful in their agenda. Most of > our > > > knowledge they bring back as their> > > > own inventions and discoveries, and we are left to falsify > their > > > claims. This> > > > blatant attempt to outrage our modesty has been going on and > will > > > go on as> > > > undoubtedly we have treasures which are their envy. > > > > > > > > No one should be allowed to propound> > > > theories to refute what is given in ancient scriptures and no > one > > > should be> > > > allowed to play with facts given therein. E.g we all know that > > > astronomy as a> > > > science is precisely given in Vedas of which some of the > > phenomenon > > > and principles> > > > were later proven by scientific techniques. Similarly, there > are > > > many more such> > > > principles embedded in vedic knowledge which are yet to come to > > > light and if distorted,> > > > we would never be able to know the truth. > > > > > > > > And no one should be allowed to come in the> > > > garb of a learned person and mislead innocent people who do not > > > have in-depth> > > > knowledge and are vulnerable. If at all, they should showcase > > their > > > ‘newly> > > > acquired enlightenment’ in the midst of those who have the > > > background and sound> > > > knowledge of our ancient systems. These disguised persons are > > > certainly more dangerous as sometimes they get a better audience > > than > > > others who are just shrugged off.> > > > > > > > > > > > I would also ask Kaul> > > > ji to write directly to Shri Rao and ask him to clarify his > > doubts. > > > I am sure he would throw this> > > > request in the dustbin as I know KN Rao ji will not even deem > > Kaul > > > ji fit to be> > > > answered!!> > > > > > > > Regards> > > > TRIPURA> > > > > > > > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to > > > http://messenger./invite/> > > >> > > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Shri Sreedhar Nambiarji,

Namaskar!

<He was retired as CAG the most senior position and he was posted in

various headquarters in states as a part of his job and tenure in

diffrnt capacity and he passed the administrativ services exam with

flying colors b4 joining to this service .>

 

That is all the more reason for Shri Rao to be one in word and deed!

If he has admitted that he was commiting an error by claiming

predictive gimmicks as " Vedic astrology " , he should not now invite

fresh students to learn the same " Vedic astrology " that he has

disowned!

He should also know that it is a crime under Consumer Protection Act

to publicise something as what it is not in reality! In our day to

day conversations, we call such acts as cheating!

That is all the more reason that we should stop heeding " Vedic

astrologers " regarding the real Pauranic Makar Sankanti etc. since if

the so called nirayana Mesha etc. rashis are not Vedic, they cetainly

are not even Pauranic asnd as such, they are totally unsuitable for

festivals etc.

Dhanyavad.

A K Kaul

, " sreedhar.nambiar "

<sreedhar.nambiar wrote:

>

>

>

>

> Kaul ji

>

> Here atleast u dont distorted facts i blv ,it is what my

information too

> .

>

>

>

> He was retired as CAG the most senior position and he was posted in

> various headquarters in states as a part of his job and tenure in

> diffrnt capacity and he passed the administrativ services exam with

> flying colors b4 joining to this service .

>

>

>

> regrds sreedhar

>

>

> , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> <jyotirved@> wrote:

> >

> > Dear Jain Sahib,

> > Namaskar!

> > Thanks for the post.

> > <I just want to correct your msg (or your information ?) that Sh.

KN

> > Rao was not CAG but DAG>

> >

> > During a lecture session in Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Shri Rao was

> > introduced as " the Raman of North India " and it was said that he

had

> > retired as Comptroller and Auditor General of Central Government.

> > Even during his tour to the US of A, his " papers " carried an

> > introduction to that effect.

> > With regards,

> > A K Kaul

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > , " sanat2221 "

> > sanatkumar_jain@ wrote:

> > >

> > > Resp. Kaul Ji,

> > > Namaskar,

> > > I just want to correct your msg (or your information ?) that

Sh. KN

> > > Rao was not CAG but DAG. CAG is a constitutional post and post

of

> > DAG

> > > is related to only for a State which is under AG (Accountant

> > General).

> > > Thanks,

> > > Yours truly,

> > > Sanat

> > >

> > > PS:

> > > 1 Sh Deshmukh Ji I am waiting for your response on my various

> > > mails. I hope his health may be quite OK

> > > 2 Members may please share their views for interaction.

> > > Otherwise there is no use of becoming a silent member and they

will

> > > never be able to enrich their knowledge or may clear doubts on

the

> > > shoulders of other members.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> > > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Sushri Tripura Maliniji,

> > > > Namaskar!

> > > > Your post is quite dry and off the cuff stuff, without

anything

> > > > either informative or worthwhile!

> > > >

> > > > In the end of the long yarn, you have said, " I would also ask

Kaul

> > > > ji to write directly to Shri Rao "

> > > > It may be news to you that I have met Shri Rao personally

several

> > > > times when he was affiliaed to late Dr. B. V. Raman (via

ICAS),

> > > whom

> > > > he called " the greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth

> > century " .

> > > I

> > > > had given Shri Rao my ephemerides, like I gave to every other

> > > teacher

> > > > in the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, every year for his/their

> > comments.

> > > We

> > > > have had personal discussions about mundane astrology and

other

> > > > things way back in 1994. The " Controller of Examinations " of

> > ICAS,

> > > a

> > > > retired High Court Judge of Delhi, wanted me to join the

faculty

> > of

> > > > Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, but I declined it thankfully.

> > > > My ephemerides then were a hybrid of Sayana and nirayana,

under

> > > the

> > > > impression that the so called Sayana rashis were the ones

> > > propounded

> > > > by the Vedas!

> > > >

> > > > Shri Rao, however, branched on his own later, as there was a

> > clash

> > > of

> > > > personalities with BVR! You must be aware that BVR followed a

> > > > different Ayanamsha, and he swore by it!

> > > > During the conference of Panchanga standardisation in New

Delhi,

> > > Shri

> > > > Rao did not attend it since, as per his own words, he did not

> > know

> > > > anything about astronomy. In his place, Shri Kulshreshtha, a

> > > faculty

> > > > member of BVB and my neighbour in Delhi attended it!

> > > > I have personally " attended " several teaching sessions of Shri

> > Rao

> > > > and quite a few of his predictions were very very off the

mark!

> > > >

> > > > You have also said, " and ask him (Rao) to clarify his (Kaul's)

> > > > doubts. I am sure he would throw this request in the dustbin

as I

> > > > know KN Rao ji will not even deem Kaul ji fit to be

answered!! "

> > > >

> > > > That is the crux of the issue! I have addressed personal

leters

> > to

> > > > Shri Rao, besides several other astrologers, including BVR and

> > > > Gayatri Devi Vasudev etc. etc. It was only because of my

letters

> > > to

> > > > Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan and other institutions that " Vedic

> > > astrology --

> > > > - the great fraud on the Vedas " , that Shri Rao has recanted

his

> > > stand

> > > > that predictive gimmicks are Vedic! Ignorance of law is no

> > excuse

> > > > and as Shri Rao is on record to have said that predictive

> > astrology

> > > > cannot be called Vedic astrology. Having retired as a CAG of

the

> > > GOI,

> > > > he cannot present to the world the same gimmicks as " Vedic

> > > astrology "

> > > > that he has recanted and disowned, to invite people to

> > learn " Vedic

> > > > astrology " from him through his Journal of Astrology and other

> > > > means!

> > > > For your kind information, I may put it on record that all

> > > the " great

> > > > Vedic astrologers " know in their heart of hearts that

predictive

> > > > gimmicks are anything but Vedic, however, they cannot admit

it at

> > > > such a late stage since AAKHIR PAAPI PET KA SAWAL HAI!

> > > > That is why " Great Vedic astrologers " never dare reply any

such

> > > > factual mails, since they know that they are treading on

shifting

> > > > sands! It is only their " shishyas " and " chamchas " who flaunt

> > their

> > > > ignorance under the impression that they are omniscient!

> > > >

> > > > However, I would be least bothered about such cacaphony as

> > > predictive

> > > > gimmicks being Vedic but the only problem is that it is only

> > > because

> > > > of the fraud known as " Vedic astrology " that we are

celebrating

> > all

> > > > our festivals and muhurtas on wrong days! And I know that you

> > know

> > > > that too but do not want to let down our false messiahs!

> > > > Dhanyavad.

> > > > A K Kaul

> > > > hinducivilization , Tripura Malini

> > > > <tripura_malini@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Dear Prashanth Nair ji and group,

> > > > >

> > > > > Why are we always on the defensive?? Why do

> > > > > we always need to explain to outsiders and fight with non-

> > > believers

> > > > as to ‘what

> > > > > is’ and ‘what not is’ contained in the

> Vedas. Do we take

> > > > every intruder to the

> > > > > place of worship in our house and show where our deities are

> > and

> > > > explain why

> > > > > they’re there, what they’re doing there and what

> they mean

> > to

> > > > us?

> > > > >

> > > > > I do not need to discuss basics in this elite

> > > > > group. It suffices to say that Vedas essentially cover ALL

> > > > knowledge, material

> > > > > and spiritual. PERIOD. There can be no argument on this

unless

> > > > those who debate

> > > > > can prove their sound understanding of this eternal

knowledge.

> > > Only

> > > > then they

> > > > > are eligible to debate on this. If we forgo this claim, we

> > forgo

> > > > the basis of

> > > > > our existence as Hindus, as Bhartis and as propounders of

> > SANATAN.

> > > > >

> > > > > The Vedas and Vedic literature are not mere

> > > > > scriptures or collection of books. This is the knowledge

> > embedded

> > > > in our consciousness.

> > > > > This is something we are born with and we ‘know’.

> This

> > simple

> > > > truth cannot be

> > > > > understood by an outsider.

> > > > >

> > > > > Vedas are veiled, symbolic and subtle, and

> > > > > require a special vision to understand and use them

properly.

> > > Like

> > > > any advanced

> > > > > study in modern world, it has symbols and formulae and a

master

> > > is

> > > > needed to

> > > > > unveil their in-depth meanings for a common man. All

knowledge

> > > > flows from Vedas

> > > > > and all subjects are extensions of Vedas. That is why we

have

> > > ample

> > > > proofs for

> > > > > all round scientific developments in ancient Indiain the

> > > > > fields of not only biology, physics, chemistry, maths,

> > astronomy,

> > > > etc, but also

> > > > > biogenetics, surgery, medicine, aeronautics, alchemy,

weapons

> > and

> > > > machinery, etc.

> > > > > Much of this knowledge has either been already adopted or in

> > > stages

> > > > of research

> > > > > and understanding. Some of the principles used are still

beyond

> > > the

> > > > > comprehension of modern science.

> > > > >

> > > > > This also includes the knowledge of

> > > > > astrology, which was covered under Vedanga. People like KN

Rao

> > ji

> > > > are elevated

> > > > > souls who realise the eternal truth and get crucified

because

> > of

> > > > that. People

> > > > > like Kaul ji have not understood the real meaning behind Rao

> > > ji’s

> > > > statements,

> > > > > but it is their motive to create misunderstanding in

whatever

> > is

> > > > being said by

> > > > > the masters and hence they latch on to words and interpret

them

> > > in

> > > > their own

> > > > > ways. World is afraid of their success and they use all

means

> > †"

> > > > fair and

> > > > > unfair, to silence them. Why don’t they latch on to

> ‘Aham

> > > > Brahmasmi’ and start

> > > > > saying that this is absolute nonsense? To an average,

unaware

> > > > person, this is

> > > > > one of the most untrue and heinous statement. One day they

are

> > > > bound to fight

> > > > > our Mahavakyas which are beyond comprehension for such

minds.

> > > > >

> > > > > Outsiders have always been in awe of our eternal

> > > > > knowledge and literature. They have time and again invaded

us,

> > > > attacked us and

> > > > > carried away our rich heritage with them. Much of the

precious

> > > > literature now

> > > > > lies in foreign hands. They try to decipher the meaning

behind

> > > > these symbolic

> > > > > and subtle writings and present it in the form of half

baked or

> > > > erroneous theories

> > > > > which we go on contesting for nothing.

> > > > >

> > > > > These invaders have also understood that

> > > > > there is another dimension needed to understand the depths

of

> > our

> > > > ancient

> > > > > literature, which they cannot hope to have, so they have

> > started

> > > > the propaganda

> > > > > either to distort or falsify the knowledge. It is sad that

many

> > > of

> > > > our own learned

> > > > > men have joined their forces to help them in this mission…

> > ghar

> > > > ka bhedi lanka dhaye… for they are a little more aware than

> > > > > them and hence found to be helpful in their agenda. Most of

> > our

> > > > knowledge they bring back as their

> > > > > own inventions and discoveries, and we are left to falsify

> > their

> > > > claims. This

> > > > > blatant attempt to outrage our modesty has been going on and

> > will

> > > > go on as

> > > > > undoubtedly we have treasures which are their envy.

> > > > >

> > > > > No one should be allowed to propound

> > > > > theories to refute what is given in ancient scriptures and

no

> > one

> > > > should be

> > > > > allowed to play with facts given therein. E.g we all know

that

> > > > astronomy as a

> > > > > science is precisely given in Vedas of which some of the

> > > phenomenon

> > > > and principles

> > > > > were later proven by scientific techniques. Similarly, there

> > are

> > > > many more such

> > > > > principles embedded in vedic knowledge which are yet to

come to

> > > > light and if distorted,

> > > > > we would never be able to know the truth.

> > > > >

> > > > > And no one should be allowed to come in the

> > > > > garb of a learned person and mislead innocent people who do

not

> > > > have in-depth

> > > > > knowledge and are vulnerable. If at all, they should

showcase

> > > their

> > > > ‘newly

> > > > > acquired enlightenment’ in the midst of those who have

> the

> > > > background and sound

> > > > > knowledge of our ancient systems. These disguised persons

are

> > > > certainly more dangerous as sometimes they get a better

audience

> > > than

> > > > others who are just shrugged off.

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > I would also ask Kaul

> > > > > ji to write directly to Shri Rao and ask him to clarify his

> > > doubts.

> > > > I am sure he would throw this

> > > > > request in the dustbin as I know KN Rao ji will not even

deem

> > > Kaul

> > > > ji fit to be

> > > > > answered!!

> > > > >

> > > > > Regards

> > > > > TRIPURA

> > > > >

> > > > >

> > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to

> > > > http://messenger./invite/

> > > > >

> > > >

> > > > --- End forwarded message ---

> > > >

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Resp. Kaul ji,

Namaskar,

Paper and introduction were quite wrong. I know that he was DAG and

not CAG. Perhaps introducer may want to inform that he is/was in CAG

office. I have worked in CAG office hence my information is totally

right. You may treat it as his 2nd cheating gesture beside VEDIC

astrology.

Thanks.

Yours

 

sanat

 

, " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

>

> Dear Jain Sahib,

> Namaskar!

> Thanks for the post.

> <I just want to correct your msg (or your information ?) that Sh.

KN

> Rao was not CAG but DAG>

>

> During a lecture session in Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Shri Rao was

> introduced as " the Raman of North India " and it was said that he

had

> retired as Comptroller and Auditor General of Central Government.

> Even during his tour to the US of A, his " papers " carried an

> introduction to that effect.

> With regards,

> A K Kaul

>

>

>

>

> , " sanat2221 "

> <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote:

> >

> > Resp. Kaul Ji,

> > Namaskar,

> > I just want to correct your msg (or your information ?) that Sh.

KN

> > Rao was not CAG but DAG. CAG is a constitutional post and post of

> DAG

> > is related to only for a State which is under AG (Accountant

> General).

> > Thanks,

> > Yours truly,

> > Sanat

> >

> > PS:

> > 1 Sh Deshmukh Ji I am waiting for your response on my various

> > mails. I hope his health may be quite OK

> > 2 Members may please share their views for interaction.

> > Otherwise there is no use of becoming a silent member and they

will

> > never be able to enrich their knowledge or may clear doubts on

the

> > shoulders of other members.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > >

> > > hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> > > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Sushri Tripura Maliniji,

> > > Namaskar!

> > > Your post is quite dry and off the cuff stuff, without anything

> > > either informative or worthwhile!

> > >

> > > In the end of the long yarn, you have said, " I would also ask

Kaul

> > > ji to write directly to Shri Rao "

> > > It may be news to you that I have met Shri Rao personally

several

> > > times when he was affiliaed to late Dr. B. V. Raman (via ICAS),

> > whom

> > > he called " the greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth

> century " .

> > I

> > > had given Shri Rao my ephemerides, like I gave to every other

> > teacher

> > > in the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, every year for his/their

> comments.

> > We

> > > have had personal discussions about mundane astrology and other

> > > things way back in 1994. The " Controller of Examinations " of

> ICAS,

> > a

> > > retired High Court Judge of Delhi, wanted me to join the

faculty

> of

> > > Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, but I declined it thankfully.

> > > My ephemerides then were a hybrid of Sayana and nirayana,

under

> > the

> > > impression that the so called Sayana rashis were the ones

> > propounded

> > > by the Vedas!

> > >

> > > Shri Rao, however, branched on his own later, as there was a

> clash

> > of

> > > personalities with BVR! You must be aware that BVR followed a

> > > different Ayanamsha, and he swore by it!

> > > During the conference of Panchanga standardisation in New

Delhi,

> > Shri

> > > Rao did not attend it since, as per his own words, he did not

> know

> > > anything about astronomy. In his place, Shri Kulshreshtha, a

> > faculty

> > > member of BVB and my neighbour in Delhi attended it!

> > > I have personally " attended " several teaching sessions of Shri

> Rao

> > > and quite a few of his predictions were very very off the mark!

> > >

> > > You have also said, " and ask him (Rao) to clarify his (Kaul's)

> > > doubts. I am sure he would throw this request in the dustbin as

I

> > > know KN Rao ji will not even deem Kaul ji fit to be answered!! "

> > >

> > > That is the crux of the issue! I have addressed personal leters

> to

> > > Shri Rao, besides several other astrologers, including BVR and

> > > Gayatri Devi Vasudev etc. etc. It was only because of my

letters

> > to

> > > Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan and other institutions that " Vedic

> > astrology --

> > > - the great fraud on the Vedas " , that Shri Rao has recanted his

> > stand

> > > that predictive gimmicks are Vedic! Ignorance of law is no

> excuse

> > > and as Shri Rao is on record to have said that predictive

> astrology

> > > cannot be called Vedic astrology. Having retired as a CAG of

the

> > GOI,

> > > he cannot present to the world the same gimmicks as " Vedic

> > astrology "

> > > that he has recanted and disowned, to invite people to

> learn " Vedic

> > > astrology " from him through his Journal of Astrology and other

> > > means!

> > > For your kind information, I may put it on record that all

> > the " great

> > > Vedic astrologers " know in their heart of hearts that

predictive

> > > gimmicks are anything but Vedic, however, they cannot admit it

at

> > > such a late stage since AAKHIR PAAPI PET KA SAWAL HAI!

> > > That is why " Great Vedic astrologers " never dare reply any such

> > > factual mails, since they know that they are treading on

shifting

> > > sands! It is only their " shishyas " and " chamchas " who flaunt

> their

> > > ignorance under the impression that they are omniscient!

> > >

> > > However, I would be least bothered about such cacaphony as

> > predictive

> > > gimmicks being Vedic but the only problem is that it is only

> > because

> > > of the fraud known as " Vedic astrology " that we are celebrating

> all

> > > our festivals and muhurtas on wrong days! And I know that you

> know

> > > that too but do not want to let down our false messiahs!

> > > Dhanyavad.

> > > A K Kaul

> > > hinducivilization , Tripura Malini

> > > <tripura_malini@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Dear Prashanth Nair ji and group,

> > > >

> > > > Why are we always on the defensive?? Why do

> > > > we always need to explain to outsiders and fight with non-

> > believers

> > > as to ‘what

> > > > is’ and ‘what not is’ contained in the Vedas. Do we

take

> > > every intruder to the

> > > > place of worship in our house and show where our deities are

> and

> > > explain why

> > > > they’re there, what they’re doing there and what they

mean

> to

> > > us?

> > > >

> > > > I do not need to discuss basics in this elite

> > > > group. It suffices to say that Vedas essentially cover ALL

> > > knowledge, material

> > > > and spiritual. PERIOD. There can be no argument on this

unless

> > > those who debate

> > > > can prove their sound understanding of this eternal

knowledge.

> > Only

> > > then they

> > > > are eligible to debate on this. If we forgo this claim, we

> forgo

> > > the basis of

> > > > our existence as Hindus, as Bhartis and as propounders of

> SANATAN.

> > > >

> > > > The Vedas and Vedic literature are not mere

> > > > scriptures or collection of books. This is the knowledge

> embedded

> > > in our consciousness.

> > > > This is something we are born with and we ‘know’. This

> simple

> > > truth cannot be

> > > > understood by an outsider.

> > > >

> > > > Vedas are veiled, symbolic and subtle, and

> > > > require a special vision to understand and use them properly.

> > Like

> > > any advanced

> > > > study in modern world, it has symbols and formulae and a

master

> > is

> > > needed to

> > > > unveil their in-depth meanings for a common man. All

knowledge

> > > flows from Vedas

> > > > and all subjects are extensions of Vedas. That is why we have

> > ample

> > > proofs for

> > > > all round scientific developments in ancient Indiain the

> > > > fields of not only biology, physics, chemistry, maths,

> astronomy,

> > > etc, but also

> > > > biogenetics, surgery, medicine, aeronautics, alchemy, weapons

> and

> > > machinery, etc.

> > > > Much of this knowledge has either been already adopted or in

> > stages

> > > of research

> > > > and understanding. Some of the principles used are still

beyond

> > the

> > > > comprehension of modern science.

> > > >

> > > > This also includes the knowledge of

> > > > astrology, which was covered under Vedanga. People like KN

Rao

> ji

> > > are elevated

> > > > souls who realise the eternal truth and get crucified because

> of

> > > that. People

> > > > like Kaul ji have not understood the real meaning behind Rao

> > ji’s

> > > statements,

> > > > but it is their motive to create misunderstanding in whatever

> is

> > > being said by

> > > > the masters and hence they latch on to words and interpret

them

> > in

> > > their own

> > > > ways. World is afraid of their success and they use all means

> †"

> > > fair and

> > > > unfair, to silence them. Why don’t they latch on to ‘Aham

> > > Brahmasmi’ and start

> > > > saying that this is absolute nonsense? To an average, unaware

> > > person, this is

> > > > one of the most untrue and heinous statement. One day they

are

> > > bound to fight

> > > > our Mahavakyas which are beyond comprehension for such minds.

> > > >

> > > > Outsiders have always been in awe of our eternal

> > > > knowledge and literature. They have time and again invaded

us,

> > > attacked us and

> > > > carried away our rich heritage with them. Much of the

precious

> > > literature now

> > > > lies in foreign hands. They try to decipher the meaning

behind

> > > these symbolic

> > > > and subtle writings and present it in the form of half baked

or

> > > erroneous theories

> > > > which we go on contesting for nothing.

> > > >

> > > > These invaders have also understood that

> > > > there is another dimension needed to understand the depths of

> our

> > > ancient

> > > > literature, which they cannot hope to have, so they have

> started

> > > the propaganda

> > > > either to distort or falsify the knowledge. It is sad that

many

> > of

> > > our own learned

> > > > men have joined their forces to help them in this mission…

> ghar

> > > ka bhedi lanka dhaye… for they are a little more aware than

> > > > them and hence found to be helpful in their agenda. Most of

> our

> > > knowledge they bring back as their

> > > > own inventions and discoveries, and we are left to falsify

> their

> > > claims. This

> > > > blatant attempt to outrage our modesty has been going on and

> will

> > > go on as

> > > > undoubtedly we have treasures which are their envy.

> > > >

> > > > No one should be allowed to propound

> > > > theories to refute what is given in ancient scriptures and no

> one

> > > should be

> > > > allowed to play with facts given therein. E.g we all know

that

> > > astronomy as a

> > > > science is precisely given in Vedas of which some of the

> > phenomenon

> > > and principles

> > > > were later proven by scientific techniques. Similarly, there

> are

> > > many more such

> > > > principles embedded in vedic knowledge which are yet to come

to

> > > light and if distorted,

> > > > we would never be able to know the truth.

> > > >

> > > > And no one should be allowed to come in the

> > > > garb of a learned person and mislead innocent people who do

not

> > > have in-depth

> > > > knowledge and are vulnerable. If at all, they should showcase

> > their

> > > ‘newly

> > > > acquired enlightenment’ in the midst of those who have the

> > > background and sound

> > > > knowledge of our ancient systems. These disguised persons are

> > > certainly more dangerous as sometimes they get a better

audience

> > than

> > > others who are just shrugged off.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > I would also ask Kaul

> > > > ji to write directly to Shri Rao and ask him to clarify his

> > doubts.

> > > I am sure he would throw this

> > > > request in the dustbin as I know KN Rao ji will not even deem

> > Kaul

> > > ji fit to be

> > > > answered!!

> > > >

> > > > Regards

> > > > TRIPURA

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to

> > > http://messenger./invite/

> > > >

> > >

> > > --- End forwarded message ---

> > >

> >

>

[Guest guest]

Kaul ji

 

so long as u dont proov veda is text book of astrology and u show the original vedic texts any one can call astro as vedic or pre vedic or mlecha depending on their passion ,knowledge and attitude .But the crux of the problem is astrology is use for predicting events and as far as i am concerned i find it is working in practical way and u or any one has not proved other wise too ,other than simple arguemnt for the sake of arguemnts .

 

 

as regrds to cheating done by rao u can very well approach court if u hav confidence

 

regrds sreedhar .nambiar

, "Avtar Krishen Kaul" <jyotirved wrote:>> Shri Sreedhar Nambiarji,> Namaskar!> <He was retired as CAG the most senior position and he was posted in> various headquarters in states as a part of his job and tenure in> diffrnt capacity and he passed the administrativ services exam with> flying colors b4 joining to this service .> > > That is all the more reason for Shri Rao to be one in word and deed! > If he has admitted that he was commiting an error by claiming > predictive gimmicks as "Vedic astrology", he should not now invite > fresh students to learn the same "Vedic astrology" that he has > disowned!> He should also know that it is a crime under Consumer Protection Act > to publicise something as what it is not in reality! In our day to > day conversations, we call such acts as cheating!> That is all the more reason that we should stop heeding "Vedic > astrologers" regarding the real Pauranic Makar Sankanti etc. since if > the so called nirayana Mesha etc. rashis are not Vedic, they cetainly > are not even Pauranic asnd as such, they are totally unsuitable for > festivals etc.> Dhanyavad.> A K Kaul> , "sreedhar.nambiar" > sreedhar.nambiar@ wrote:> >> > > > > > > > Kaul ji> > > > Here atleast u dont distorted facts i blv ,it is what my > information too> > .> > > > > > > > He was retired as CAG the most senior position and he was posted in> > various headquarters in states as a part of his job and tenure in> > diffrnt capacity and he passed the administrativ services exam with> > flying colors b4 joining to this service .> > > > > > > > regrds sreedhar> > > > > > , "Avtar Krishen Kaul"> > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > >> > > Dear Jain Sahib,> > > Namaskar!> > > Thanks for the post.> > > <I just want to correct your msg (or your information ?) that Sh. > KN> > > Rao was not CAG but DAG>> > >> > > During a lecture session in Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, Shri Rao was> > > introduced as "the Raman of North India" and it was said that he > had> > > retired as Comptroller and Auditor General of Central Government.> > > Even during his tour to the US of A, his "papers" carried an> > > introduction to that effect.> > > With regards,> > > A K Kaul> > >> > >> > >> > >> > > , "sanat2221"> > > sanatkumar_jain@ wrote:> > > >> > > > Resp. Kaul Ji,> > > > Namaskar,> > > > I just want to correct your msg (or your information ?) that > Sh. KN> > > > Rao was not CAG but DAG. CAG is a constitutional post and post > of> > > DAG> > > > is related to only for a State which is under AG (Accountant> > > General).> > > > Thanks,> > > > Yours truly,> > > > Sanat> > > >> > > > PS:> > > > 1 Sh Deshmukh Ji I am waiting for your response on my various> > > > mails. I hope his health may be quite OK> > > > 2 Members may please share their views for interaction.> > > > Otherwise there is no use of becoming a silent member and they > will> > > > never be able to enrich their knowledge or may clear doubts on > the> > > > shoulders of other members.> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > , "Avtar Krishen Kaul"> > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > hinducivilization , "Avtar Krishen Kaul"> > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:> > > > >> > > > > Sushri Tripura Maliniji,> > > > > Namaskar!> > > > > Your post is quite dry and off the cuff stuff, without > anything> > > > > either informative or worthwhile!> > > > >> > > > > In the end of the long yarn, you have said, "I would also ask > Kaul> > > > > ji to write directly to Shri Rao"> > > > > It may be news to you that I have met Shri Rao personally > several> > > > > times when he was affiliaed to late Dr. B. V. Raman (via > ICAS),> > > > whom> > > > > he called "the greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth> > > century".> > > > I> > > > > had given Shri Rao my ephemerides, like I gave to every other> > > > teacher> > > > > in the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, every year for his/their> > > comments.> > > > We> > > > > have had personal discussions about mundane astrology and > other> > > > > things way back in 1994. The "Controller of Examinations" of> > > ICAS,> > > > a> > > > > retired High Court Judge of Delhi, wanted me to join the > faculty> > > of> > > > > Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, but I declined it thankfully.> > > > > My ephemerides then were a hybrid of Sayana and nirayana, > under> > > > the> > > > > impression that the so called Sayana rashis were the ones> > > > propounded> > > > > by the Vedas!> > > > >> > > > > Shri Rao, however, branched on his own later, as there was a> > > clash> > > > of> > > > > personalities with BVR! You must be aware that BVR followed a> > > > > different Ayanamsha, and he swore by it!> > > > > During the conference of Panchanga standardisation in New > Delhi,> > > > Shri> > > > > Rao did not attend it since, as per his own words, he did not> > > know> > > > > anything about astronomy. In his place, Shri Kulshreshtha, a> > > > faculty> > > > > member of BVB and my neighbour in Delhi attended it!> > > > > I have personally "attended" several teaching sessions of Shri> > > Rao> > > > > and quite a few of his predictions were very very off the > mark!> > > > >> > > > > You have also said, "and ask him (Rao) to clarify his (Kaul's)> > > > > doubts. I am sure he would throw this request in the dustbin > as I> > > > > know KN Rao ji will not even deem Kaul ji fit to be > answered!!"> > > > >> > > > > That is the crux of the issue! I have addressed personal > leters> > > to> > > > > Shri Rao, besides several other astrologers, including BVR and> > > > > Gayatri Devi Vasudev etc. etc. It was only because of my > letters> > > > to> > > > > Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan and other institutions that "Vedic> > > > astrology --> > > > > - the great fraud on the Vedas", that Shri Rao has recanted > his> > > > stand> > > > > that predictive gimmicks are Vedic! Ignorance of law is no> > > excuse> > > > > and as Shri Rao is on record to have said that predictive> > > astrology> > > > > cannot be called Vedic astrology. Having retired as a CAG of > the> > > > GOI,> > > > > he cannot present to the world the same gimmicks as "Vedic> > > > astrology"> > > > > that he has recanted and disowned, to invite people to> > > learn "Vedic> > > > > astrology" from him through his Journal of Astrology and other> > > > > means!> > > > > For your kind information, I may put it on record that all> > > > the "great> > > > > Vedic astrologers" know in their heart of hearts that > predictive> > > > > gimmicks are anything but Vedic, however, they cannot admit > it at> > > > > such a late stage since AAKHIR PAAPI PET KA SAWAL HAI!> > > > > That is why "Great Vedic astrologers" never dare reply any > such> > > > > factual mails, since they know that they are treading on > shifting> > > > > sands! It is only their "shishyas" and "chamchas" who flaunt> > > their> > > > > ignorance under the impression that they are omniscient!> > > > >> > > > > However, I would be least bothered about such cacaphony as> > > > predictive> > > > > gimmicks being Vedic but the only problem is that it is only> > > > because> > > > > of the fraud known as "Vedic astrology" that we are > celebrating> > > all> > > > > our festivals and muhurtas on wrong days! And I know that you> > > know> > > > > that too but do not want to let down our false messiahs!> > > > > Dhanyavad.> > > > > A K Kaul> > > > > hinducivilization , Tripura Malini> > > > > <tripura_malini@> wrote:> > > > > >> > > > > > Dear Prashanth Nair ji and group,> > > > > >> > > > > > Why are we always on the defensive?? Why do> > > > > > we always need to explain to outsiders and fight with non-> > > > believers> > > > > as to ‘what> > > > > > is’ and ‘what not is’ contained in the> > Vedas. Do we take> > > > > every intruder to the> > > > > > place of worship in our house and show where our deities are> > > and> > > > > explain why> > > > > > they’re there, what they’re doing there and what> > they mean> > > to> > > > > us?> > > > > >> > > > > > I do not need to discuss basics in this elite> > > > > > group. It suffices to say that Vedas essentially cover ALL> > > > > knowledge, material> > > > > > and spiritual. PERIOD. There can be no argument on this > unless> > > > > those who debate> > > > > > can prove their sound understanding of this eternal > knowledge.> > > > Only> > > > > then they> > > > > > are eligible to debate on this. If we forgo this claim, we> > > forgo> > > > > the basis of> > > > > > our existence as Hindus, as Bhartis and as propounders of> > > SANATAN.> > > > > >> > > > > > The Vedas and Vedic literature are not mere> > > > > > scriptures or collection of books. This is the knowledge> > > embedded> > > > > in our consciousness.> > > > > > This is something we are born with and we ‘know’.> > This> > > simple> > > > > truth cannot be> > > > > > understood by an outsider.> > > > > >> > > > > > Vedas are veiled, symbolic and subtle, and> > > > > > require a special vision to understand and use them > properly.> > > > Like> > > > > any advanced> > > > > > study in modern world, it has symbols and formulae and a > master> > > > is> > > > > needed to> > > > > > unveil their in-depth meanings for a common man. All > knowledge> > > > > flows from Vedas> > > > > > and all subjects are extensions of Vedas. That is why we > have> > > > ample> > > > > proofs for> > > > > > all round scientific developments in ancient Indiain the> > > > > > fields of not only biology, physics, chemistry, maths,> > > astronomy,> > > > > etc, but also> > > > > > biogenetics, surgery, medicine, aeronautics, alchemy, > weapons> > > and> > > > > machinery, etc.> > > > > > Much of this knowledge has either been already adopted or in> > > > stages> > > > > of research> > > > > > and understanding. Some of the principles used are still > beyond> > > > the> > > > > > comprehension of modern science.> > > > > >> > > > > > This also includes the knowledge of> > > > > > astrology, which was covered under Vedanga. People like KN > Rao> > > ji> > > > > are elevated> > > > > > souls who realise the eternal truth and get crucified > because> > > of> > > > > that. People> > > > > > like Kaul ji have not understood the real meaning behind Rao> > > > ji’s> > > > > statements,> > > > > > but it is their motive to create misunderstanding in > whatever> > > is> > > > > being said by> > > > > > the masters and hence they latch on to words and interpret > them> > > > in> > > > > their own> > > > > > ways. World is afraid of their success and they use all > means> > > â€"> > > > > fair and> > > > > > unfair, to silence them. Why don’t they latch on to> > ‘Aham> > > > > Brahmasmi’ and start> > > > > > saying that this is absolute nonsense? To an average, > unaware> > > > > person, this is> > > > > > one of the most untrue and heinous statement. One day they > are> > > > > bound to fight> > > > > > our Mahavakyas which are beyond comprehension for such > minds.> > > > > >> > > > > > Outsiders have always been in awe of our eternal> > > > > > knowledge and literature. They have time and again invaded > us,> > > > > attacked us and> > > > > > carried away our rich heritage with them. Much of the > precious> > > > > literature now> > > > > > lies in foreign hands. They try to decipher the meaning > behind> > > > > these symbolic> > > > > > and subtle writings and present it in the form of half > baked or> > > > > erroneous theories> > > > > > which we go on contesting for nothing.> > > > > >> > > > > > These invaders have also understood that> > > > > > there is another dimension needed to understand the depths > of> > > our> > > > > ancient> > > > > > literature, which they cannot hope to have, so they have> > > started> > > > > the propaganda> > > > > > either to distort or falsify the knowledge. It is sad that > many> > > > of> > > > > our own learned> > > > > > men have joined their forces to help them in this mission…> > > ghar> > > > > ka bhedi lanka dhaye… for they are a little more aware than> > > > > > them and hence found to be helpful in their agenda. Most of> > > our> > > > > knowledge they bring back as their> > > > > > own inventions and discoveries, and we are left to falsify> > > their> > > > > claims. This> > > > > > blatant attempt to outrage our modesty has been going on and> > > will> > > > > go on as> > > > > > undoubtedly we have treasures which are their envy.> > > > > >> > > > > > No one should be allowed to propound> > > > > > theories to refute what is given in ancient scriptures and > no> > > one> > > > > should be> > > > > > allowed to play with facts given therein. E.g we all know > that> > > > > astronomy as a> > > > > > science is precisely given in Vedas of which some of the> > > > phenomenon> > > > > and principles> > > > > > were later proven by scientific techniques. Similarly, there> > > are> > > > > many more such> > > > > > principles embedded in vedic knowledge which are yet to > come to> > > > > light and if distorted,> > > > > > we would never be able to know the truth.> > > > > >> > > > > > And no one should be allowed to come in the> > > > > > garb of a learned person and mislead innocent people who do > not> > > > > have in-depth> > > > > > knowledge and are vulnerable. If at all, they should > showcase> > > > their> > > > > ‘newly> > > > > > acquired enlightenment’ in the midst of those who have> > the> > > > > background and sound> > > > > > knowledge of our ancient systems. These disguised persons > are> > > > > certainly more dangerous as sometimes they get a better > audience> > > > than> > > > > others who are just shrugged off.> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > I would also ask Kaul> > > > > > ji to write directly to Shri Rao and ask him to clarify his> > > > doubts.> > > > > I am sure he would throw this> > > > > > request in the dustbin as I know KN Rao ji will not even > deem> > > > Kaul> > > > > ji fit to be> > > > > > answered!!> > > > > >> > > > > > Regards> > > > > > TRIPURA> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > > Add more friends to your messenger and enjoy! Go to> > > > > http://messenger./invite/> > > > > >> > > > >> > > > > --- End forwarded message ---> > > > >> > > >> > >> >>

[Guest guest]

Dear Sanatji,

Namaskar !

I am painfully aware that so far I have not been able

to fulfill my commitment despite your gentle

reminders.Although the ball is in my court,I am

feeling simply helpless to do anything about it.

I joined the Net Band Wagon about a year and a half

ago.I was thrilled with the experience ! In my newly

found enthusiasm I joined a few discussion groups and

enjoyed sharing my experiences with the

members.However, with the passage of time,I realised

that I was rapidly growing older much before my time

with a discernible drop in energy level affecting me

on intellectual,physical and emotional planes and I

feel for very obvious reasons.I am required to take

eleven medicinal tablets per day to take care of my

cardiac and other health problem.Needless to say,the

alopathic drugs are not without their side effects In

short,what started as pleasant activity on the Net has

now become a painful exercise depriving me of simple

joys of living in my declining years.I hope you would

appreciate the predicament I am going through

presently.Neither the spirit nor the body is willing !

All the same, I do wish to return to net with all the

enthusiasm and energy,Inshalla.But when,I have no

clue.

With warm regards

VBDeshmukh

 

--- sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain wrote:

 

> Resp. Kaul ji,

> Namaskar,

> Paper and introduction were quite wrong. I know that

> he was DAG and

> not CAG. Perhaps introducer may want to inform that

> he is/was in CAG

> office. I have worked in CAG office hence my

> information is totally

> right. You may treat it as his 2nd cheating gesture

> beside VEDIC

> astrology.

> Thanks.

> Yours

>

> sanat

>

> , " Avtar

> Krishen Kaul "

> <jyotirved wrote:

> >

> > Dear Jain Sahib,

> > Namaskar!

> > Thanks for the post.

> > <I just want to correct your msg (or your

> information ?) that Sh.

> KN

> > Rao was not CAG but DAG>

> >

> > During a lecture session in Bharatiya Vidya

> Bhavan, Shri Rao was

> > introduced as " the Raman of North India " and it

> was said that he

> had

> > retired as Comptroller and Auditor General of

> Central Government.

> > Even during his tour to the US of A, his " papers "

> carried an

> > introduction to that effect.

> > With regards,

> > A K Kaul

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ,

> " sanat2221 "

> > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Resp. Kaul Ji,

> > > Namaskar,

> > > I just want to correct your msg (or your

> information ?) that Sh.

> KN

> > > Rao was not CAG but DAG. CAG is a constitutional

> post and post of

> > DAG

> > > is related to only for a State which is under AG

> (Accountant

> > General).

> > > Thanks,

> > > Yours truly,

> > > Sanat

> > >

> > > PS:

> > > 1 Sh Deshmukh Ji I am waiting for your response

> on my various

> > > mails. I hope his health may be quite OK

> > > 2 Members may please share their views for

> interaction.

> > > Otherwise there is no use of becoming a silent

> member and they

> will

> > > never be able to enrich their knowledge or may

> clear doubts on

> the

> > > shoulders of other members.

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ,

> " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> > > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > hinducivilization ,

> " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Sushri Tripura Maliniji,

> > > > Namaskar!

> > > > Your post is quite dry and off the cuff stuff,

> without anything

> > > > either informative or worthwhile!

> > > >

> > > > In the end of the long yarn, you have said, " I

> would also ask

> Kaul

> > > > ji to write directly to Shri Rao "

> > > > It may be news to you that I have met Shri Rao

> personally

> several

> > > > times when he was affiliaed to late Dr. B. V.

> Raman (via ICAS),

> > > whom

> > > > he called " the greatest Vedic astrologer of

> the twentieth

> > century " .

> > > I

> > > > had given Shri Rao my ephemerides, like I gave

> to every other

> > > teacher

> > > > in the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, every year for

> his/their

> > comments.

> > > We

> > > > have had personal discussions about mundane

> astrology and other

> > > > things way back in 1994. The " Controller of

> Examinations " of

> > ICAS,

> > > a

> > > > retired High Court Judge of Delhi, wanted me

> to join the

> faculty

> > of

> > > > Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, but I declined it

> thankfully.

> > > > My ephemerides then were a hybrid of Sayana

> and nirayana,

> under

> > > the

> > > > impression that the so called Sayana rashis

> were the ones

> > > propounded

> > > > by the Vedas!

> > > >

> > > > Shri Rao, however, branched on his own later,

> as there was a

> > clash

> > > of

> > > > personalities with BVR! You must be aware

> that BVR followed a

> > > > different Ayanamsha, and he swore by it!

> > > > During the conference of Panchanga

> standardisation in New

> Delhi,

> > > Shri

> > > > Rao did not attend it since, as per his own

> words, he did not

> > know

> > > > anything about astronomy. In his place, Shri

> Kulshreshtha, a

> > > faculty

> > > > member of BVB and my neighbour in Delhi

> attended it!

> > > > I have personally " attended " several teaching

> sessions of Shri

> > Rao

> > > > and quite a few of his predictions were very

> very off the mark!

> > > >

> > > > You have also said, " and ask him (Rao) to

> clarify his (Kaul's)

> > > > doubts. I am sure he would throw this request

> in the dustbin as

> I

> > > > know KN Rao ji will not even deem Kaul ji fit

> to be answered!! "

> > > >

> > > > That is the crux of the issue! I have

> addressed personal leters

> > to

> > > > Shri Rao, besides several other astrologers,

> including BVR and

> > > > Gayatri Devi Vasudev etc. etc. It was only

> because of my

> letters

> > > to

> > > > Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan and other institutions

> that " Vedic

> > > astrology --

> > > > - the great fraud on the Vedas " , that Shri Rao

> has recanted his

> > > stand

> > > > that predictive gimmicks are Vedic! Ignorance

> of law is no

> > excuse

> > > > and as Shri Rao is on record to have said that

> predictive

> > astrology

> > > > cannot be called Vedic astrology. Having

> retired as a CAG of

> the

> > > GOI,

> > > > he cannot present to the world the same

> gimmicks as " Vedic

> > > astrology "

> > > > that he has recanted and disowned, to invite

> people to

> > learn " Vedic

> > > > astrology " from him through his Journal of

> Astrology

=== message truncated ===

 

 

 

 

 

Connect with friends all over the world. Get India Messenger at

http://in.messenger./?wm=n/

[Guest guest]

Resp. Deshmukh Ji,

Namaskar,

Sorry to know about your health. Hence I will suggest to take complet

rest. Hope and prey your health will improve shortly.

Take rest. All good wishes from myside and from the members of the

group.

Thanks

Yours

 

sanat

 

, vbdeshmukh <deshmukhv

wrote:

>

> Dear Sanatji,

> Namaskar !

> I am painfully aware that so far I have not been able

> to fulfill my commitment despite your gentle

> reminders.Although the ball is in my court,I am

> feeling simply helpless to do anything about it.

> I joined the Net Band Wagon about a year and a half

> ago.I was thrilled with the experience ! In my newly

> found enthusiasm I joined a few discussion groups and

> enjoyed sharing my experiences with the

> members.However, with the passage of time,I realised

> that I was rapidly growing older much before my time

> with a discernible drop in energy level affecting me

> on intellectual,physical and emotional planes and I

> feel for very obvious reasons.I am required to take

> eleven medicinal tablets per day to take care of my

> cardiac and other health problem.Needless to say,the

> alopathic drugs are not without their side effects In

> short,what started as pleasant activity on the Net has

> now become a painful exercise depriving me of simple

> joys of living in my declining years.I hope you would

> appreciate the predicament I am going through

> presently.Neither the spirit nor the body is willing !

> All the same, I do wish to return to net with all the

> enthusiasm and energy,Inshalla.But when,I have no

> clue.

> With warm regards

> VBDeshmukh

>

> --- sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain wrote:

>

> > Resp. Kaul ji,

> > Namaskar,

> > Paper and introduction were quite wrong. I know that

> > he was DAG and

> > not CAG. Perhaps introducer may want to inform that

> > he is/was in CAG

> > office. I have worked in CAG office hence my

> > information is totally

> > right. You may treat it as his 2nd cheating gesture

> > beside VEDIC

> > astrology.

> > Thanks.

> > Yours

> >

> > sanat

> >

> > , " Avtar

> > Krishen Kaul "

> > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > >

> > > Dear Jain Sahib,

> > > Namaskar!

> > > Thanks for the post.

> > > <I just want to correct your msg (or your

> > information ?) that Sh.

> > KN

> > > Rao was not CAG but DAG>

> > >

> > > During a lecture session in Bharatiya Vidya

> > Bhavan, Shri Rao was

> > > introduced as " the Raman of North India " and it

> > was said that he

> > had

> > > retired as Comptroller and Auditor General of

> > Central Government.

> > > Even during his tour to the US of A, his " papers "

> > carried an

> > > introduction to that effect.

> > > With regards,

> > > A K Kaul

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > >

> > > ,

> > " sanat2221 "

> > > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote:

> > > >

> > > > Resp. Kaul Ji,

> > > > Namaskar,

> > > > I just want to correct your msg (or your

> > information ?) that Sh.

> > KN

> > > > Rao was not CAG but DAG. CAG is a constitutional

> > post and post of

> > > DAG

> > > > is related to only for a State which is under AG

> > (Accountant

> > > General).

> > > > Thanks,

> > > > Yours truly,

> > > > Sanat

> > > >

> > > > PS:

> > > > 1 Sh Deshmukh Ji I am waiting for your response

> > on my various

> > > > mails. I hope his health may be quite OK

> > > > 2 Members may please share their views for

> > interaction.

> > > > Otherwise there is no use of becoming a silent

> > member and they

> > will

> > > > never be able to enrich their knowledge or may

> > clear doubts on

> > the

> > > > shoulders of other members.

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > >

> > > > ,

> > " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > hinducivilization ,

> > " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote:

> > > > >

> > > > > Sushri Tripura Maliniji,

> > > > > Namaskar!

> > > > > Your post is quite dry and off the cuff stuff,

> > without anything

> > > > > either informative or worthwhile!

> > > > >

> > > > > In the end of the long yarn, you have said, " I

> > would also ask

> > Kaul

> > > > > ji to write directly to Shri Rao "

> > > > > It may be news to you that I have met Shri Rao

> > personally

> > several

> > > > > times when he was affiliaed to late Dr. B. V.

> > Raman (via ICAS),

> > > > whom

> > > > > he called " the greatest Vedic astrologer of

> > the twentieth

> > > century " .

> > > > I

> > > > > had given Shri Rao my ephemerides, like I gave

> > to every other

> > > > teacher

> > > > > in the Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, every year for

> > his/their

> > > comments.

> > > > We

> > > > > have had personal discussions about mundane

> > astrology and other

> > > > > things way back in 1994. The " Controller of

> > Examinations " of

> > > ICAS,

> > > > a

> > > > > retired High Court Judge of Delhi, wanted me

> > to join the

> > faculty

> > > of

> > > > > Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan, but I declined it

> > thankfully.

> > > > > My ephemerides then were a hybrid of Sayana

> > and nirayana,

> > under

> > > > the

> > > > > impression that the so called Sayana rashis

> > were the ones

> > > > propounded

> > > > > by the Vedas!

> > > > >

> > > > > Shri Rao, however, branched on his own later,

> > as there was a

> > > clash

> > > > of

> > > > > personalities with BVR! You must be aware

> > that BVR followed a

> > > > > different Ayanamsha, and he swore by it!

> > > > > During the conference of Panchanga

> > standardisation in New

> > Delhi,

> > > > Shri

> > > > > Rao did not attend it since, as per his own

> > words, he did not

> > > know

> > > > > anything about astronomy. In his place, Shri

> > Kulshreshtha, a

> > > > faculty

> > > > > member of BVB and my neighbour in Delhi

> > attended it!

> > > > > I have personally " attended " several teaching

> > sessions of Shri

> > > Rao

> > > > > and quite a few of his predictions were very

> > very off the mark!

> > > > >

> > > > > You have also said, " and ask him (Rao) to

> > clarify his (Kaul's)

> > > > > doubts. I am sure he would throw this request

> > in the dustbin as

> > I

> > > > > know KN Rao ji will not even deem Kaul ji fit

> > to be answered!! "

> > > > >

> > > > > That is the crux of the issue! I have

> > addressed personal leters

> > > to

> > > > > Shri Rao, besides several other astrologers,

> > including BVR and

> > > > > Gayatri Devi Vasudev etc. etc. It was only

> > because of my

> > letters

> > > > to

> > > > > Bharatiya Vidya Bhavan and other institutions

> > that " Vedic

> > > > astrology --

> > > > > - the great fraud on the Vedas " , that Shri Rao

> > has recanted his

> > > > stand

> > > > > that predictive gimmicks are Vedic! Ignorance

> > of law is no

> > > excuse

> > > > > and as Shri Rao is on record to have said that

> > predictive

> > > astrology

> > > > > cannot be called Vedic astrology. Having

> > retired as a CAG of

> > the

> > > > GOI,

> > > > > he cannot present to the world the same

> > gimmicks as " Vedic

> > > > astrology "

> > > > > that he has recanted and disowned, to invite

> > people to

> > > learn " Vedic

> > > > > astrology " from him through his Journal of

> > Astrology

> === message truncated ===

>

>

>

>

>

> Connect with friends all over the world. Get India

Messenger at http://in.messenger./?wm=n/

>

[Guest guest]

Shri Sreedhar Nambiarji,

Namaskar!

<so long as u dont proov veda is text book of astrology and u show the

original vedic texts any one can call astro as vedic or pre vedic or

mlecha depending on their passion>

 

A very strange logic indeed! But " Vedic astrologers " thrive only on

such illogic! It is actually " Vedic astrologers " who have to prove

that " Veda is text book of astrology " and not me! Further, Vedic

texts are already available on the net! I do not have to show them!

On the other hand, you have to show as to which mantras talk of

predictive gimmicks vis-a-vis Mesha, Vrisha Rashis and Mangal, Shani

etc. planets!

 

<as regrds to cheating done by rao u can very well approach court if u

hav confidence>

KNR has at least shown the courage to disown predictive gimmicks as

Vedic astrology! It is only his chamchas who still want to cling to

it!

Dhanyavad.

AKK

 

 

 

, " sreedhar.nambiar "

<sreedhar.nambiar wrote:

>

>

>

>

> Kaul ji

>

>

>

> so long as u dont proov veda is text book of astrology and u show

the

> original vedic texts any one can call astro as vedic or pre vedic or

> mlecha depending on their passion ,knowledge and attitude .But the

crux

> of the problem is astrology is use for predicting events and as far

as i

> am concerned i find it is working in practical way and u or any one

has

> not proved other wise too ,other than simple arguemnt for the sake

of

> arguemnts .

>

>

>

>

>

> as regrds to cheating done by rao u can very well approach court if

u

> hav confidence

>

>

>

> regrds sreedhar .nambiar

>

>

> , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

> <jyotirved@> wrote:

> >

> > Shri Sreedhar Nambiarji,

> > Namaskar!

> > <He was retired as CAG the most senior position and he was posted

in

> > various headquarters in states as a part of his job and tenure in

> > diffrnt capacity and he passed the administrativ services exam

with

> > flying colors b4 joining to this service .>

> >

> > That is all the more reason for Shri Rao to be one in word and

deed!

> > If he has admitted that he was commiting an error by claiming

> > predictive gimmicks as " Vedic astrology " , he should not now invite

> > fresh students to learn the same " Vedic astrology " that he has

> > disowned!

> > He should also know that it is a crime under Consumer Protection

Act

> > to publicise something as what it is not in reality! In our day to

> > day conversations, we call such acts as cheating!

> > That is all the more reason that we should stop heeding " Vedic

> > astrologers " regarding the real Pauranic Makar Sankanti etc.

since if

> > the so called nirayana Mesha etc. rashis are not Vedic, they

cetainly

> > are not even Pauranic asnd as such, they are totally unsuitable

for

> > festivals etc.

> > Dhanyavad.

> > A K Kaul

[Guest guest]

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

 

Shri Shankara Bharadwaj Khandavalliji,

Namaskar!

Thanks for the reply.

< To me there is a lot of ambiguity and there are too many factors

that can invert our conclusions on these. Multiplicity of schools,

depth of time and evolving practices, loss of literature are only a

few to mention. And it is simplistic to take on astrology as the

devil.>

 

Since I have gone through all the Vedas and the VJ and YJ etc., I can

assure you that there is absolutely no ambiguity about the fact that

as far as predictive gimmicks are concerned, they are anti-Vedic! I

can also equally assure you that there is no ambiguity about the

absence of Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis from the Vedas and the VJ and YJ

etc. Same is the case with Mangal, Shani etc. planets.

 

Regarding " inverting our conclusions " , I had studied the Vedas to

prove to the whole world as to how " Vedic astrology " was really

Vedic, as that is what I had been reading in the Astrological

Magazine and panchangas and all the jyotisha books by most capabale

astrologers. That is also what was dinned into my ears continuously

by my parents and grandparents etc. As such, I was literally caught

on the wrong foot when I found all that hogwash baseless!

 

I was under the impression that people like Dr. Raman and K N Rao and

other " world famous " astrologers would immediately agree with me, the

moment I pointed out such fallacies to them, but unfortunately, they

had made it a prestige point to stand by whatever wrong statements

they were making! That is why I say, " aakhir paapi pet ka saval hai " .

 

Regarding " loss of literature " , the unfortunate fact is that " Vedic

astrologers " are claiming predictive gimmicks to be " Vedic astrology "

on the basis of whatever Vedic literature was/is available! If they

were really concerned about " lost literature " , they should certainly

have waited for the same to be found first befor crying from

housetops that astrology is a Vedanga!

 

It is not " simplistic to take astrology as devil " but it is really

the devil since " Vedic astrology " is anti-Vedic as it is compelling

us to celebrate all our festivals and muhuras on wrong days!

 

<Since how long have Hindus been following Lahiri or Raman or any

other Pancanga? What was the timing of Varahamihira? What kind of

error would their calculation induce over that length time, that we

celebrate our festivals almost a month later? What is the kind of

accuracy in calculation we find in Vedic days and from VJ times, and

what kind of error would that induce over such length of time?>

 

We are just avoiding the issue as to whether we are celebrating

festivals on correct days or not by postulating all these

hypothetical and irrelevant questions! They are irrelevant because

when all the Puranas and sidhantas tell us in one voice that Makar

Sankranti is another name of Uttarayana, the shortest day of the

year, and Karkata Sankranti is a synonym of Dakshinayana, the longest

day of the year and so on, why should you come to the support

of " Vedic astrologers " when they advise us to celebrate Uttarayan-cum-

Makar Sankranti on January 14/15 instead of December 21/22 etc. Why

should we try to look for scapegoats to assist them in their

nefarious activities of derailing the entire Hindu community from its

dharma of celebrating festivals on correct days?

It appears you have neither read any of the Puranas nor any of the

sidhantas yourself, since there is absolutely no ambiguity about the

fact that Vishuva i.e. Vernal Equinox is another name of Mesha

Sankranti as per all the Puranas and Sidhantas! What has the error

in calculation to do with the same? On the other hand, these " Vedic

astrologers " (frauds!) should have rectified such errors with the

help of latest technologies and instead of believing Lahiri or Raman

etc. verified the facts for themselves. In fact, your very

question " since how long have Hindus been following Lahiri or Raman

or any other Pancanga? " flies in the face of these frauds as they

instead of Vedic astrologers, they are actually Lahiri or Raman or

Chandra Hari or Fagan astrologers and want us to believe their

nonsense because it is their " paapi pet ka savaal " .

 

<5000 years since MBH, an error of a single minute in the length of

year from then would put us about a fortnight behind by now. This is

with plain arithmetic, without considering any other factors and

changes to the calculations over time.>

 

The sidhantas also have said that their calculations must be

subjected to beeja corrections in order to make the results tally

exactly with the visible phenomena as was done by Munjala in around

11the century AD. As such, the ball squarely lies in the court

of " Vedic astrologers " since instead of making Makar Sankranti

correspond with the shortest day of the year, they are removing it

away by one day every seventy-two years---by making " Lahiri Beeja

corrections " ---a word most obnoxious in letter as well as spirit!

Fie on these " Vedic astrologers " .

 

I think I have given you enough of cogent and plausible reasons to

see as to how even scholars like you are being taken for a ride

by " Vedic astrologers " who cannot even pronounce the word " Rig-Veda "

correctly!

With regards,

A K Kaul

 

 

 

 

hinducivilization , ShankaraBharadwaj

Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@> wrote:

>

> Pranam Sri A K Kaul ji,

>

> "

> Your replies are actually more confusing than enlighening! "

>

> I am too small to enlighten someone as learned as you. I am only

pointing things that seem obvious to me.

>

> "

> Sometimes you say that astrology is " present " in the Vedas though

we

> cannot see the same. Then you say that " nirayana " Rashis may not

be

> in the Vedas but they are in later astrologcial works! When asked

to

> name even a single such indigenous pre-Surya Sidhanta astrolgical

> wrok which talks of Mesha etc. rashis, you give an entirely

different

> twist to the entire discussion, so that we lose all the track of

the

> subject of discussion! "

>

> To me there is a lot of ambiguity and there are too many factors

that can invert our conclusions on these. Multiplicity of schools,

depth of time and evolving practices, loss of literature are only a

few to mention. And it is simplistic to take on astrology as the

devil.

>

> "

> Now you say that because the Vedanga Jyotisha has given the wrong

> duration of a year that is why we are celebrating our festivals and

> muhurtas on worng days, in spite of the fact that nobody is going

by

> the VJ these days, least of all NASA/JPL, whose data is being used

by

> Rashtirya (read Lahiri) Panchanga after ayanamsha tonsure! "

>

> I have not said it is wrong. The reason I put the question is to

hint at the factor of depth of time.

>

>

> In the first place, VJ is not a text of Vedic times. The " Vedic

calculation of year " perhaps saw a modification at VJ times, and that

in turn has seen changes later on.

>

> Since how long have Hindus been following Lahiri or Raman or any

other Pancanga? What was the timing of Varahamihira? What kind of

error would their calculation induce over that length time, that we

celebrate our festivals almost a month later? What is the kind of

accuracy in calculation we find in Vedic days and from VJ times, and

what kind of error would that induce over such length of time? And if

Astrologers' calculation is solely responsible for " error " , then it

should also be conceded that their tradition is much older than you

suggest.

>

> 5000 years since MBH, an error of a single minute in the length of

year from then would put us about a fortnight behind by now. This is

with plain arithmetic, without considering any other factors and

changes to the calculations over time.

>

> So the whole problem of calculation of festivals on " right " days is

very incomplete without all those things taken into picture. I think

attacking these " recent " versions will only take you in a loop.

>

> "

> Astrologers cannot answer my questions because they are not

> scientists! And sceintists cannot answer them because they are not

> astrologers! What are you? A scientist or an astrologer or

neither

> or both? "

>

> I stand by the first. The second, I did not say but you are not

wrong. Because astrology involves something more than these

calculations.

>

> As for me, I am neither by practice, but have learned a littttttle

of both. I have seen a whole range of people who are " astrologers " ,

who are not, who do predictions and what not. You might be surprised

to know that there are a lot of people who look at some chart (they

do not even know the basics of how to draw a chart) and make right

predictions. There are people who make such charts. There are also

people who study Panca Siddhantika and make calculations, and do

predictions. And there are people who studied the " science " and

cannot predict.

>

> "

> <So your questions are going to virtually none! >

>

> Still you are answering them! "

>

> Well I wish I know enough to answer. The person who has the correct

answer can seldom be found. Most opinions and calculations have

limitations. But my intention in saying that is, to bring a positive

change the system is really too big and complex, with no single

deciding authority where sufficient information and power is there.

Anything has to start as a tradition, and that freedom is fortunately

there in our society.

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@>

> hinducivilization

> Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:59:50 PM

> [hc] Re: " Vedic astrology! Eh? Nothing Vedic about it " --K

N Rao

>

>

> Shri Shankara Bharadwaj Khandavalliji,

> Namaskar!

> Your replies are actually more confusing than enlighening!

> Sometimes you say that astrology is " present " in the Vedas though

we

> cannot see the same. Then you say that " nirayana " Rashis may not

be

> in the Vedas but they are in later astrologcial works! When asked

to

> name even a single such indigenous pre-Surya Sidhanta astrolgical

> wrok which talks of Mesha etc. rashis, you give an entirely

different

> twist to the entire discussion, so that we lose all the track of

the

> subject of discussion!

>

> Now you say that because the Vedanga Jyotisha has given the wrong

> duration of a year that is why we are celebrating our festivals and

> muhurtas on worng days, in spite of the fact that nobody is going

by

> the VJ these days, least of all NASA/JPL, whose data is being used

by

> Rashtirya (read Lahiri) Panchanga after ayanamsha tonsure!

>

> Then you say, " I do not think any astrologer will have answers to

> your questions, because he is not a scientist - he does not study

why

> things work and what is the basis for the entire subject. He is the

> consumer of the subject. " This is all talking in circles!

> Astrologers cannot answer my questions because they are not

> scientists! And sceintists cannot answer them because they are not

> astrologers! What are you? A scientist or an astrologer or

neither

> or both?

>

> Your following statement takes the cake

>

> <So your questions are going to virtually none! >

>

> Still you are answering them!

> Regards,

> A K Kaul

>

 

--- End forwarded message ---

[Guest guest]

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

 

Shri Shankara Bharadwaj Khandavalliji,

Namaskar!

Thanks for the mail.

< Here you are clearly getting biased, and your focus appears more in

attacking Astrology than dealing with the problem of correct

calendar, don't you think so? >

 

When I say that there is no ambiguity about the fact that as far as

predictive gimmicks are concerned, they are anti-Vedic, what type of

bias do you find in that statement? It is a statement of facts and

unless someone proves that there are predictive gimmicks in the

Vedas, merely repeating " phalita jyotisha is a Vedanga " like a parrot

is not going to solve the problem! They are on the other hand

proving their own ignorance and/or ulterior motives by insisting

on " Vedic astrology " without any grounds/proofs.

Regarding your statement, " attacking astrology than dealing with the

problem of correct calendar " , I have repeated it literally hundreds

of times that there is a direct conflict between Mesha, Vrisha etc.

rashi based predictive gimmicks and the real Vedic calendar! I have

also repeated it hundreds of times that the Hindu community has to

choose either of the two---i.e. either " Vedic astrology " (read

predictive gimmicks) or celebrating festivals on correct days. The

fact of the matter is that Vedic calendar is based on Madhu, Madhava

etc. seasonal months, which are totally unrelated to any type of

Rashis and therefore any ayanamsha on the shoulders of precession!

We could say that because Western Rashis like Aries, Taurus etc. are

aligned to seasons, as such, even the Vedic calendar is based on

Western astrological signs. That is exactly what Rashtriya Panchanga

is doing even today. It calls Madhu as Vedic (Sayana) Mina and

Madhava as Vedic (Sayana) Mesha etc. That is absolutely wrong!

Firstly, because when there are no Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis in the

Vedas, there is absolutely no dichotomy of so called Sayana or so

called Nirayana. As such, how can the Rashtriya Panchanga align

Western astrological Pisces with Madhu and Aries with Madhava and so

on?

Secondly, if some how or the other without any rhyme or reason we

agree with the Rashtirya Panchanga that Vedic months are Western

astrological Rashis, it means that the so called nirayana whether

Lahiri or Ramana etc. Aries, Taurus etc. rashis are actually non-

Vedic and even anti-Vedic according to the Rashtriya Panchanga itself

since both i.e. nirayana and sayana cannot be Vedic simultaneously!

(Pl. see rashi5.doc in files section).

 

Thirdly, Vedas do talk of Kritika, Rohini etc. nakshatras hundreds of

times---though there is absolutely no mention of Mesha (Aries) etc

rashis even once. By linking Western Aries etc. Rashis to the

Vedas/Vedic calendar, we get completely de-linked from nakshatras!

For example, the Junction Star of Ashvini nakshatra i.e. Beta Arietis

is around 34 degrees as per the so called Sayana reckoning which

means that it will fall in Sayana Taurus, whereas Hindu jyotishis

want Ashvini nakshatra to coincide with Mesharamba bindu i.e. Vernal

Equinox always! And Vernal Equinox is Sayana Aries and is known as

First point of Aries! Thus we cannot choose so called sayana rashis

either!

And the so called nirayana rashis cannot be linked to seasons at

all! Therefore, for Vedic calendar, rashis are completely ruled out.

 

Ironically, on the other hand, phalita jyotisha has absolutely no

existence without Mesha, Vrisha etc., Sayana rashis for Western

astrologers and nirayana ones for Hindu astrologers!

Thus that is the dichotomy and that is the conflict between phalita

jyotisha---whether sayana or nirayana---and the real Vedic calendar!

And that is why I have taken up cudgels against the so called Vedic

astrology, whether the so called Sayana or so called nirayana!

 

<Here if you say that Astrologers introduced this error, you must

concede that we have been following them all the while. If not, then

one should understand that accuracy in mathematical calculations

improves over time and the inaccuracy in calculation in the Vedic and

VJ times should be adjusted.>

Surya Sidhnata is the main culprit for this error! There is a direct

conflict between its calculations and its statements! When it

says " Bhanor Makar Sankranteh shanmasa Uttarayanam, Karkyades

tathaiva syat shanmasa dakshinayanam " i.e. the six months of

Uttarayana start from the date of Makara Sankranti, when the day is

the shortest and the six months of Dakshinayana start from Karkata

Sankranti, when the day is the longest " , it was/is obviously talking

of a seasonal year i.e. tropical year vis-a-vis Mesha etc. Sayana

rashis, as was being done by Greek astrologers in second century

BCE! However, the duration of a year as per its calculations is

neither seasonal (Tropical) nor sidereal but more by eight palas i.e.

3.2 seconds than even the sidereal year! Though the same Surya

Sidhanta has also advised that the longitudes must be tallied with

the exact phenomena from time to time, but somehow, it conveyed the

impression that since it was revealed by Surya Bhagwan, its

calculations could never be wrong!

AND THAT IS WHAT HAS CONFUSED everybody right from Varahamihira to

Bhasakra-II! They went on making corrections in such a clumsy manner

that made the confusion got worst confounded! Instead of making

Makar Sankranti coincide with the Winter Solstice, as desired by the

Surya Sidhanta, they went on making Uttarayana tally with the Makar

Sankranti calculated as per the Surya Sidhanta calculations! THAT IS

AN IMPOSSIBLE TASK! And that is why we have hundreds of Ayanamshas!

 

Munjala was the only Indian astronomer who could see as to what was

happening. As such, he advised to subtract one arc minute per year

from the longitudes of all the planets calculated as per the SS

calculations since Shaka 444. That way the calculated Makar

Sankranti tallied exactly with the Uttarayana (Winter Solstice!) and

Karkata Sankranti with Dakshinayana (Summer Solstice) and so on in

his time. As per Alberuni's India, Munjala was the most accomplished

Indian astronomer and Bhatotpala (actually Utapala Bhata) of Kashmir

was wise/intelligent enough to have followed the Munjala beeja

corrections!

K. S. Shukla has said in his translation of Munjala's Lagumanasa that

Munjala's system was followed throughout India for several centuries

right from Kashmir to Kayna Kumari, which means that Makar Sankranti

coincided with Uttarayana and so on for several centuries after

eleventh century.

 

It was only after Bhaskara-II that things appear to have gone wrong

again! Though he has referred to Munjala's Ayanamsha in his Sidhanta

Shiromani, however, he has not advised any such corrections!

 

Historical records show that even during Mughal rule, Vernal Equinox

was celebrated as Mesha Sankranti and Makara Sankranti as Uttarayana

and so on! Things appear started spinning on their heads with the

advent of Grahalaghava---sixteenth century---when Ganesha Daivajnya

advocated corrections absolutely contrary to that of Munjala! He

advised that we must subtract one arc minute per year from the actual

i.e. Sayana longitudes of planets starting from Shaka 444! And since

there were only phalita jyotishis and no real Hindu astronomers

around then, nobody could see as to what a mess he was creating by

making the visible phenomena subservient to calculated longitudes of

the Surya Sidhanta! AND THAT IS HOW THE THINGS GOT OUT OF CONTROL!

 

That also shows that till about sixteenth century AD, astronomers

like Munjala had been followed which yielded correct longitudes of

the sun and moon vis-à-vis the actual phenomena!

It thus proves that though the seeds of wrong Hindu calendars had

been sown by the Surya Sidhanta in around 2nd century, however, the

things went completely out of control from sixteenth century AD---

when Ganesha Daivajnya invented an ayanamsha to tally exactly with

the Surya Sdhanta calculations.

 

What is most pathetic and tragic is that because of sinister elements

like late N. C. Lahiri in the Saha Calendar Reform Committee (1955),

that committee also recommended an Ayanamsha nearer to that of

Grahalaghava---to be subtracted from Sayana longitudes which N. C.

Lahiri named Chitra Ayanamsha euphemistically, when everybody knows

it as Lahiri Ayanamsha, since it has absolutely no connection with

Chitra (Spica) Star actually!

N. C. Lahiri, instead of calendar reform, was more worried about the

sales of his Lahiri's Indian Ephemeris and the Vishudha Sidhanta

Panjika---—both of which were using an ayanamsha which was nearer to

Grahalaghava in mid 40s of the previous century!

And N. C. Lahiri was assisted/helped by Hindu jyotishis (nobody

called predictive gimmicks as Vedic astrology till about late

seventies of the last century!) who were following Grahalaghava as

that was the easiest available Karna-grantha, for calculating their

panchangas!

The long and short of this discussion, as such, is that phalita

jyotishis, who call themselves " Vedic astrologers " these days, are

responsible for the mayhem in Hindu calendar and we have to put a

full stop to the same.

I have tried to explain the real problem of calendar reform vis-a-

vis " Vedic astrology " succinctly and in a layman's language. I am

sure all the members can understand as to what has gone wrong and

where and they will definitely strive to overcome the problem. And

the only way out is to dissociate ourselves from predictive gimmicks--

-at least divest those gimmicks of any presumed and imaginary

scriptural sanctions----if we want to really follow the Vedic

calendar.

With regards,

A K Kaul

 

 

hinducivilization , ShankaraBharadwaj

Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@> wrote:

>

> Pranam Sri A K Kaul ji,

>

> " I can

> assure you that there is absolutely no ambiguity about the fact

that

> as far as predictive gimmicks are concerned, they are anti-Vedic! "

>

> Here you are clearly getting biased, and your focus appears more in

attacking Astrology than dealing with the problem of correct

calendar, don't you think so? I think this input is given by other

learned members too.

>

>

> " They are irrelevant because

> when all the Puranas and sidhantas tell us in one voice that Makar

> Sankranti is another name of Uttarayana, the shortest day of the

> year, and Karkata Sankranti is a synonym of Dakshinayana, the

longest

> day of the year and so on, why should you come to the support

> of " Vedic astrologers " when they advise us to celebrate Uttarayan-

cum-

> Makar Sankranti on January 14/15 instead of December 21/22 etc. "

>

> Because of the simple fact I stated: Your Sankranti is calculated

based on the length of the year and centuries of error in the

calculation, even of one single minute, would introduce this

difference.

>

> Here if you say that Astrologers introduced this error, you must

concede that we have been following them all the while. If not, then

one should understand that accuracy in mathematical calculations

improves over time and the inaccuracy in calculation in the Vedic and

VJ times should be adjusted.

>

> In either case, attacking Astrology is far from solving the

problem.

>

> "

> It appears you have neither read any of the Puranas nor any of the

> sidhantas yourself, since there is absolutely no ambiguity about

the

> fact that Vishuva i.e. Vernal Equinox is another name of Mesha

> Sankranti as per all the Puranas and Sidhantas! What has the error

> in calculation to do with the same? "

>

> It has, as I respond to the subsequent point:

>

> "

> The sidhantas also have said that their calculations must be

> subjected to beeja corrections in order to make the results tally

> exactly with the visible phenomena as was done by Munjala in around

> 11the century AD "

>

> Here I have a few points to mention: since this calculative

phenomenon, observational aspect to track the " visible phenomena " has

really come down. This is not an apologetic statement, I am only

stating what is obvious.

>

> The second point is that a considerable difference in the visible

phenomenon happens over long periods of time. And a corrective will

be needed. No one here pointed out that your calendar project is

incorrect - but it should be a corrective and not an attack on a

subject.

>

> "

> I think I have given you enough of cogent and plausible reasons to

> see as to how even scholars like you are being taken for a ride

> by " Vedic astrologers " who cannot even pronounce the word " Rig-

Veda "

> correctly! "

>

> Firstly, I do not consider myself a scholar. Secondly, as I

mentioned earlier, you are mixing many things here - as a result of

which something which can be synthetic is ending up as a conflict.

>

>

>

>

>

> ________________________________

> Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@>

> hinducivilization

> Friday, December 26, 2008 3:20:29 PM

> [hc] Re: " Vedic astrology! Eh? Nothing Vedic about it " --K

N Rao

>

>

> Shri Shankara Bharadwaj Khandavalliji,

> Namaskar!

> Thanks for the reply.

> < To me there is a lot of ambiguity and there are too many factors

> that can invert our conclusions on these. Multiplicity of schools,

> depth of time and evolving practices, loss of literature are only a

> few to mention. And it is simplistic to take on astrology as the

> devil.>

>

> Since I have gone through all the Vedas and the VJ and YJ etc., I

can

> assure you that there is absolutely no ambiguity about the fact

that

> as far as predictive gimmicks are concerned, they are anti-Vedic!

I

> can also equally assure you that there is no ambiguity about the

> absence of Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis from the Vedas and the VJ and

YJ

> etc. Same is the case with Mangal, Shani etc. planets.

>

> Regarding " inverting our conclusions " , I had studied the Vedas to

> prove to the whole world as to how " Vedic astrology " was really

> Vedic, as that is what I had been reading in the Astrological

> Magazine and panchangas and all the jyotisha books by most capabale

> astrologers. That is also what was dinned into my ears continuously

> by my parents and grandparents etc. As such, I was literally

caught

> on the wrong foot when I found all that hogwash baseless!

>

> I was under the impression that people like Dr. Raman and K N Rao

and

> other " world famous " astrologers would immediately agree with me,

the

> moment I pointed out such fallacies to them, but unfortunately,

they

> had made it a prestige point to stand by whatever wrong statements

> they were making! That is why I say, " aakhir paapi pet ka saval

hai " .

>

> Regarding " loss of literature " , the unfortunate fact is that " Vedic

> astrologers " are claiming predictive gimmicks to be " Vedic

astrology "

> on the basis of whatever Vedic literature was/is available! If

they

> were really concerned about " lost literature " , they should

certainly

> have waited for the same to be found first befor crying from

> housetops that astrology is a Vedanga!

>

> It is not " simplistic to take astrology as devil " but it is really

> the devil since " Vedic astrology " is anti-Vedic as it is compelling

> us to celebrate all our festivals and muhuras on wrong days!

>

> <Since how long have Hindus been following Lahiri or Raman or any

> other Pancanga? What was the timing of Varahamihira? What kind of

> error would their calculation induce over that length time, that we

> celebrate our festivals almost a month later? What is the kind of

> accuracy in calculation we find in Vedic days and from VJ times,

and

> what kind of error would that induce over such length of time?>

>

> We are just avoiding the issue as to whether we are celebrating

> festivals on correct days or not by postulating all these

> hypothetical and irrelevant questions! They are irrelevant because

> when all the Puranas and sidhantas tell us in one voice that Makar

> Sankranti is another name of Uttarayana, the shortest day of the

> year, and Karkata Sankranti is a synonym of Dakshinayana, the

longest

> day of the year and so on, why should you come to the support

> of " Vedic astrologers " when they advise us to celebrate Uttarayan-

cum-

> Makar Sankranti on January 14/15 instead of December 21/22 etc.

Why

> should we try to look for scapegoats to assist them in their

> nefarious activities of derailing the entire Hindu community from

its

> dharma of celebrating festivals on correct days?

> It appears you have neither read any of the Puranas nor any of the

> sidhantas yourself, since there is absolutely no ambiguity about

the

> fact that Vishuva i.e. Vernal Equinox is another name of Mesha

> Sankranti as per all the Puranas and Sidhantas! What has the error

> in calculation to do with the same? On the other hand, these " Vedic

> astrologers " (frauds!) should have rectified such errors with the

> help of latest technologies and instead of believing Lahiri or

Raman

> etc. verified the facts for themselves. In fact, your very

> question " since how long have Hindus been following Lahiri or Raman

> or any other Pancanga? " flies in the face of these frauds as they

> instead of Vedic astrologers, they are actually Lahiri or Raman or

> Chandra Hari or Fagan astrologers and want us to believe their

> nonsense because it is their " paapi pet ka savaal " .

>

> <5000 years since MBH, an error of a single minute in the length

of

> year from then would put us about a fortnight behind by now. This

is

> with plain arithmetic, without considering any other factors and

> changes to the calculations over time.>

>

> The sidhantas also have said that their calculations must be

> subjected to beeja corrections in order to make the results tally

> exactly with the visible phenomena as was done by Munjala in around

> 11the century AD. As such, the ball squarely lies in the court

> of " Vedic astrologers " since instead of making Makar Sankranti

> correspond with the shortest day of the year, they are removing it

> away by one day every seventy-two years---by making " Lahiri Beeja

> corrections " ---a word most obnoxious in letter as well as spirit!

> Fie on these " Vedic astrologers " .

>

> I think I have given you enough of cogent and plausible reasons to

> see as to how even scholars like you are being taken for a ride

> by " Vedic astrologers " who cannot even pronounce the word " Rig-

Veda "

> correctly!

> With regards,

> A K Kaul

>

> hinducivilization, ShankaraBharadwaj

> Khandavalli <shankarabharadwaj@ ...> wrote:

> >

> > Pranam Sri A K Kaul ji,

> >

> > "

> > Your replies are actually more confusing than enlighening! "

> >

> > I am too small to enlighten someone as learned as you. I am only

> pointing things that seem obvious to me.

> >

> > "

> > Sometimes you say that astrology is " present " in the Vedas though

> we

> > cannot see the same. Then you say that " nirayana " Rashis may

not

> be

> > in the Vedas but they are in later astrologcial works! When

asked

> to

> > name even a single such indigenous pre-Surya Sidhanta astrolgical

> > wrok which talks of Mesha etc. rashis, you give an entirely

> different

> > twist to the entire discussion, so that we lose all the track of

> the

> > subject of discussion! "

> >

> > To me there is a lot of ambiguity and there are too many factors

> that can invert our conclusions on these. Multiplicity of schools,

> depth of time and evolving practices, loss of literature are only a

> few to mention. And it is simplistic to take on astrology as the

> devil.

> >

> > "

> > Now you say that because the Vedanga Jyotisha has given the wrong

> > duration of a year that is why we are celebrating our festivals

and

> > muhurtas on worng days, in spite of the fact that nobody is going

> by

> > the VJ these days, least of all NASA/JPL, whose data is being

used

> by

> > Rashtirya (read Lahiri) Panchanga after ayanamsha tonsure! "

> >

> > I have not said it is wrong. The reason I put the question is to

> hint at the factor of depth of time.

> >

> >

> > In the first place, VJ is not a text of Vedic times. The " Vedic

> calculation of year " perhaps saw a modification at VJ times, and

that

> in turn has seen changes later on.

> >

> > Since how long have Hindus been following Lahiri or Raman or any

> other Pancanga? What was the timing of Varahamihira? What kind of

> error would their calculation induce over that length time, that we

> celebrate our festivals almost a month later? What is the kind of

> accuracy in calculation we find in Vedic days and from VJ times,

and

> what kind of error would that induce over such length of time? And

if

> Astrologers' calculation is solely responsible for " error " , then it

> should also be conceded that their tradition is much older than you

> suggest.

> >

> > 5000 years since MBH, an error of a single minute in the length

of

> year from then would put us about a fortnight behind by now. This

is

> with plain arithmetic, without considering any other factors and

> changes to the calculations over time.

> >

> > So the whole problem of calculation of festivals on " right " days

is

> very incomplete without all those things taken into picture. I

think

> attacking these " recent " versions will only take you in a loop.

> >

> > "

> > Astrologers cannot answer my questions because they are not

> > scientists! And sceintists cannot answer them because they are

not

> > astrologers! What are you? A scientist or an astrologer or

> neither

> > or both? "

> >

> > I stand by the first. The second, I did not say but you are not

> wrong. Because astrology involves something more than these

> calculations.

> >

> > As for me, I am neither by practice, but have learned a

littttttle

> of both. I have seen a whole range of people who

are " astrologers " ,

> who are not, who do predictions and what not. You might be

surprised

> to know that there are a lot of people who look at some chart (they

> do not even know the basics of how to draw a chart) and make right

> predictions. There are people who make such charts. There are also

> people who study Panca Siddhantika and make calculations, and do

> predictions. And there are people who studied the " science " and

> cannot predict.

> >

> > "

> > <So your questions are going to virtually none! >

> >

> > Still you are answering them! "

> >

> > Well I wish I know enough to answer. The person who has the

correct

> answer can seldom be found. Most opinions and calculations have

> limitations. But my intention in saying that is, to bring a

positive

> change the system is really too big and complex, with no single

> deciding authority where sufficient information and power is there.

> Anything has to start as a tradition, and that freedom is

fortunately

> there in our society.

> >

> >

> >

> >

> >

> > ____________ _________ _________ __

> > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@ ..>

> > hinducivilization

> > Wednesday, December 17, 2008 8:59:50 PM

> > [hc] Re: " Vedic astrology! Eh? Nothing Vedic about it " --

K

> N Rao

> >

> >

> > Shri Shankara Bharadwaj Khandavalliji,

> > Namaskar!

> > Your replies are actually more confusing than enlighening!

> > Sometimes you say that astrology is " present " in the Vedas though

> we

> > cannot see the same. Then you say that " nirayana " Rashis may

not

> be

> > in the Vedas but they are in later astrologcial works! When

asked

> to

> > name even a single such indigenous pre-Surya Sidhanta astrolgical

> > wrok which talks of Mesha etc. rashis, you give an entirely

> different

> > twist to the entire discussion, so that we lose all the track of

> the

> > subject of discussion!

> >

> > Now you say that because the Vedanga Jyotisha has given the wrong

> > duration of a year that is why we are celebrating our festivals

and

> > muhurtas on worng days, in spite of the fact that nobody is going

> by

> > the VJ these days, least of all NASA/JPL, whose data is being

used

> by

> > Rashtirya (read Lahiri) Panchanga after ayanamsha tonsure!

> >

> > Then you say, " I do not think any astrologer will have answers to

> > your questions, because he is not a scientist - he does not study

> why

> > things work and what is the basis for the entire subject. He is

the

> > consumer of the subject. " This is all talking in circles!

> > Astrologers cannot answer my questions because they are not

> > scientists! And sceintists cannot answer them because they are

not

> > astrologers! What are you? A scientist or an astrologer or

> neither

> > or both?

> >

> > Your following statement takes the cake

> >

> > <So your questions are going to virtually none! >

> >

> > Still you are answering them!

> > Regards,

> > A K Kaul

> >

>

 

--- End forwarded message ---