Fwd: A new look at the Yavana issue

September 9, 2008

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

Dear friend,

Namaskar!

Your writeup is indeed full of information about Yavanas, culled as

it is from different sources.

There is a sholka, perhaps in the Vishnu Sahasrnama of the Mbh,

which reads

" aabheera kankah yavanah khasadayah, ye anye cha papa yad upa

shrayah-shryah, shudyanti tasmay prabha vishnave namah "

Here yavanas have been clubbed with abheera, kankah, khasa etc. and

all of them bracketed as " papas " i.e. belonging to a " sinful

community " .

It is thus clear that there were Yavanas in India prior to the

advent of the Greeks, unless we call such sholkas as interpolations

of a much later date. I would, personally, not go to those absurd

lengths.

Coming to your particular comment

<Yavana Jataka by Yavanacharya He was an Acharya, a Yavana, in the

court of an Indo-Greek. King Sphurjidhvaja has recorded his

teachings. Yavana astrologers may have been non-Greeks, ruled by

Indo-Greeks, and influenced by Babylonian, Persian and Greek

sciences. There is no need to be a Greek to follow Greek or Greek-

influenced knowledge. Yavanas are not Greeks or Ionians. Stray

Greeks or Ionians may have called themselves Yavana or>

The word " Yavana " came into prominence after Varahamihira's famous

sholkas in his Brihat Samhita

" mlechhah hi yavanas, teshu shastram samyak idam sthitam

rishivat te api pujyante kim punar veda vid dvijah "

In some editions this sholka reads as " yavanah hi mlechhah... "

It refers thus specifically to Greeks as the running translation

could be

" yavanas are mlechhas. As they are proficient in the shastra of

predictive astrology and (even sidhantic astronomy), that is why

they are worshipped like Rishis.... "

Varahamihira has also said at several places " yavanah ooochuh " and

named several yavana jyotishis---which certainly are Greek names.

There is no doubt thus that here by Yavanas, Greeks are referred to

as they played a fraud on Indian psyche when some Greek astronomer

assumed the name of Maya and claimed that he had obtained the

knowledge of the fundamental arguments of planets from Surya Bhagwan

himself at the beginning of the present Satya-yuga i.e. hundreds of

thousands years back! That is also the reasons as to why it is

being called even today as the Surya Sidhanta instead of the Maya

Sidhanta like we call other sidhantas as Aryabhati or Brahma-Sphuta

Sidhanta or Yavana-Jataka by the name of Yavana Jataka!!

Vrahamihira made the matters worse! In his hurry to establish his

supermacy as a master astrologer and astronomer, he went all out to

say " spashta-taro savitrah " --- " the Surya Sidhanta is the most

accurate work " !

Hindus having been gullible, took Maya the mlechha's word that the

SS was the revelation of Surya Bhagwan as divine gospel with the

result that an erudite and ardent scholar of Hindu shastras like

Swami Dayanada Saraswati, the founder of the Arya Samaja, also had

said that the Surya Sidhanta must be followed for astronmical

calulcations, though he was dead against any predictive gimmicks.

Surya Sidhanta is actually the main reason for the downfall of the

Hindu community via predictive astrology, more so as it is anything

but an astronomical work! It appears to be a phantasmagoria of some

Greek statesman to hoodwink Indians to make them astro-buffs!

For example, at every step and in almost every shloka the SS is

referring to a seasonal year which is known as Tropical year these

days when it says " Bhanor-makara sankranteh, shanmasa uttarayana,

karkyades-tathaiva syat shanmasa dakshinayana " ---The six months of

Uttarayana start with the solar ingress into Makara Sankranti and

the six months of dakshinayana with its ingress into Karkata Rashis--

-etc. etc. He should thus have given the duration of a solar year

as that of a Tropical year! But the duration of the year given by

him is neither tropical nor sidereal! It is eight palas--about

three seconds--more than even the sidereal year, which in itself is

more by about 20.33 minutes than the tropical year, which Maya was

actually talking about!

The fundamental arguments of planets like Mercury, Venus etc. etc.

are just complete non-sense! They are supposed to be heliocentric

orbital elements, but they are neither geocentric nor heliocetnric!

The Lunar node is no exception---though there should not have been

any problem in finding its daily motion! It is completely off the

mark---the mean motion is neither corresponding to a sidereal day

nor a mean solar day!

The real 'comic relief' in this joke of an astronomical work is that

there are no secular variations for any of the planets, whether the

moon---the fastest moving " planet " or Saturn---the slowest one,

right from the dawn of creation to its doomsday---i.e. as many as

4,320,000,000 years. That means that every planet moves with a

uniform daily motion which does not change by a billionth of an arc-

second over such a long period! Just imagine the jokes that were

thus being played by the Yavanas---Greeks certainly in this context--

-on the Hindus, through cronies like Varahamihira!

Aryabhata also followed in the footsteps of the Surya Sidhanta (of

Panchasidhantika) by Maya the mlechha---whether in his Ardha-ratrika

or Audayika system! Thus the planetary details worked out from

Aryabhata's works also are the most ludicrous!

In short, whatever astronomical work you take right from the

Aryabhatti to Grahalghava, through Brahma Sphuta Sidhanta to Shishya-

dhi-vridhida to Sidhanta Shiromani--they are all circumnavigating

around the Surya Sidhanta! Surprisingly, even Aryabhata claims the

year to be seasonal since he also clubs Uttarayana with Makar

Sankranti and Dakshinayana with Karkata Sankranti, but in the same

brath, his fundamental arguments being nothing but a cut and paste

from the old Surya Sidhanta, suffer from the same inherent

infirmities as that of the original Surya Sidhanta---the duration of

the year is neither sidereal nor tropical but just an imaginary one,

made to hoodwink the Hindus! And so are the orbital elements of

other planets in the Aryabhatti!

Jyotishis are fighting among themselves like Kilkenny cats for

establishing the supermacy of one ayanamsha over all the others---

but they are basically ignorant even of ABC of astronomy, I would

say even of geography---since they just do not see through the trick-

-as well as ignorance---of Maya the mlechha that the rashichkara he

was referring to was just a ditto copy of Greek constellations of

around 3rd century BCE and it could be nothing but a seasonal year

and nothing else!

Till about ninth century AD--till the time of Munjala--nobody in

India had even the faintest idea about precession. He was the only

astronomer who tried to put the horse before the cart instead of the

cart before the horse, when he advocated the " ayanamsha " to be

subtracted from the Surya Sidhanta longitudes so as to make

them " drik-tulya " . We hear of the word ayanamsha for the first time

in that work.

The Sayana and nirayana controvery is thus actually created by

jyotishis---to start with unknowingly but nowadays deliberately---to

prove the superiorty of the " Vedic astrology " over all the other

systems!

Nirayana is actually " niradhar " ---baseless, the most ludicrous,

useless and meaningless system! So is Sayana---since there are no

rashis astronomically---no neat twelve equal compartments/divisions

of the zodiac---as is claimed by jyotishis! The difference between

the real Uttarayana of the phenomenon of seasons and the Uttarayana

arrived at by caluclations in the Surya Sidhana or Aryabhati is

given the mythical name of Ayanamsha! It has absolutely no

astronomical existence nor is it related to any star, however hard

the jyotishis may try to link the Rashis to " Muladhara " (Chandra

Hari) or " Chitra " (Lahiri) or " Revati " (Raman)or SVP (Fagan) and so

on and so forth!

This nirayana versus sayana controversy got created by sheer

foolishness of Maya the mlechha linking the Vernal Equuinox---

Mesharambha bindu---to Ashvini nakshatra, with the

words, " paushnantam to bhaganam " . In other words, it means that the

Vernal Equinox would remain conjunct with that nakshatra right from

the dawn of ceation to its doomsday----which just is not possible,

because of the precession of Equinoxes, about which Maya appears to

be completely ignorant! And Hindu jyotishis, right from

Vaahamihira, the greatest charlatan of the last fifteen hundred

years to " the greatest vedic astrologer--he also was actualy the

greatest charlatan--of the twentieth century " , either could not or

deliberately did not see through the tricks or ignorance of

Maya's " divine work " !

And since Hindu jyotishis, who call themselves these days " Vedic

astrologers " have thus been making correct predictions (sic!) from

the most ludicrous fundamental arguments of planets from the Surya

Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha to the non-existent Lahiri/Raman and so

on rashichakas, no wonder they would like to be called Varahamihra---

" the most accomplished charlatan " in presenting wrong fundamental

arguments as the most accurate ones!

And that is why we are not sure today as to when we must celebrate

Uttarayana---whether on Decdember 21 (the real uttarayana) or on

January 14/15 (Chitra--Lahiri) or January 13 (Raman " Paushnanta " ) or

any other day! And that is why we are also celebrating all our

festivals and muhurtas on wrong days! Thanks to Maya the mlechha,

his cronies like Varahamihira and today's " Vedic astrologers " --for

whom " making correct predictions from incorrect data " is the only

sign of supermacy!

How long are well educated people like you going to tolerate such

adharma?---is the question that is looming large!

With regards,

AKK

hinducivilization , " adhin88 " <adhin88@>

wrote:

>

> It is always good to look at the primary texts and their contexts.

> One can find with a pre-conceived mind (Yavanas must be Ionians)

> always some connections which will fit, but others which don't are

> treated as symbolic.

> But we have to be careful with homonyms, like Gurjars are not

> Georgians or Hazars, etc.

>

> What do the Hindu sources really say about Yavanas? I have

selected

> here some quotes, mainly from the Vishnupurana and the

Mahabharata,

> especially aroud the Kalayavana episode, in order to see who the

> Yavanas were originally. (in a future posting I will examine all

the

> MBh references)

>

> I. Turvasu and Yavana

> Vishnupurana IV.10 Gives the genealogy of the Nahusha Ailas.

> Devayani, the daughter of Bhrgu gives birth to Yadu and Turvasu.

Yadu

> gets the south (Brahma., Hariv.) or southwest (Vayu.) and Turvasu

the

> southeast. (Bhagavata places them in the west): dishi dakShiNa-

> pUrvasyAM turvasuM matimAn nR^ipaH || Harivamsha 1-30-17. Turvasu

> became the ruler of the SE!

>

> Vishnupurana IV.16 Descendants of Turvasu

> " PARÁ & #346;ARA.--I shall now summarily give you an account of the

> descendants of Turvasu.

> The son of Turvasu was Vahni; his son was Gobánu; his son was

> Trai & #347;ámba; his son was Karandhama; his son was Marutta.

Marutta had

> no children, and he therefore adopted Dushyanta, of the family of

> Puru; by which the line of Turvasu merged into that of Puru 4.

This

> took place in consequence of the malediction denounced on his son

by

> Yayáti. "

>

> Note Wilson:

> " 442:4 Besides Bharata, who, as will be hereafter seen, was the

son

> of Dushyanta, the Váyu, Matsya, Agni, and Bráhma Purán & #769;as

enumerate

> several descendants in this line, for the purpose evidently of

> introducing, as the posterity of Turvasu, the nations of the south

of

> India: the series is Varuttha, (Karutthama, Bráhma), Ándíra

(Ákríra,

> Bráhma); whose sons are Pán & #769;d & #769;ya, Karn & #769;át & #769;a,

Chola, Kerala; the Hari V.

> adds Kola, and the Agni very incorrectly Gandhára. "

>

> Turvasus, thus according to the Puranas, were in the SE (of

> Aryavarta) and one branch merged with Purus, went to the south,

and

> one went to the west (Bhagavata development): Agnipurana may be

> correct that they went further to Gandhara. These are the Yavanas.

> Says the Mahabharata:

> yadostu yaadavaa jaataasturvasostu yavanah smrtah (MBh adiparva

136)

> (One may wonder whether the Yavanas had not initially some

(adopted)

> Munda and/or Dravidian affinities, before they moved on.)

>

> The Yavana subbranch of Turvasus also came to the west. We see

Raja

> Bhagadatta with Yavanas the Ajaneya horses, vessels of iron, and

> swords of hilts of ivory. (Vishnupurana VI.)

> This would place Yavanas (still) in India during Mahabharata

times,

> to the west of Mathura and Avanti. (Bhagavata development of

Turvasus

> in the west, with Yavanas as subbranch)

> The Kalayavana (Gargya) episode and Yavanas may refer to this time

> when they were in India. This king Bhagadatta may have appointed

> Kalayavana Gargya as his heir. It was Kalayavana who led the

attack

> to Mathura.

>

> II. Kalayavana episode Vishnupurana V.13

> " Birth of Kálayavana: he advances against Mathurá. Krishn & #769;a

builds

> Dwáraká, and sends thither the Yádava tribe: he leads Kálayavana

into

> the cave of Muchukunda: the latter awakes, consumes the Yavana

king,

> and praises Krishn & #769;a.

> The king of the Yavanas, who was childless, became the friend of

> Gárgya; and the latter begot a son by his wife, who was as black

as a

> bee, and was thence called Kálayavana. The Yavana king having

placed

> his son, whose breast was as hard as the point of the thunderbolt,

> upon the throne, retired to the woods. Inflated with conceit of

his

> prowess, Kálayavana demanded of Nárada who were the most mighty

> heroes on earth. To which the sage answered, " The Yádavas. "

> Accordingly Kálayavana assembled many myriads of Mlechchhas and

> barbarians, and with a vast armament of elephants, cavalry,

chariots,

> and foot, advanced impatiently against Mathurá and the Yádavas;

> wearying every day the animal that carried him, but insensible of

> fatigue himself. …

> Thus reflecting, Krishn & #769;a solicited a space of twelve

furlongs from

> the ocean, and there he built the city of Dwáraka, defended by

high

> ramparts, and beautified with gardens and reservoirs of water,

> crowded with houses and buildings, and splendid as the capital of

> Indra, Amarávatí. Thither Janárddana conducted the inhabitants of

> Mathurá, and then awaited at that city the approach of Kálayavana.

> When the hostile army encamped round Mathura, Krishn & #769;a

unarmed went

> forth, and beheld the Yavana king. Kálayavana, the strong-armed,

> recognizing Vásudeva, pursued him; him whom the thoughts of

perfect

> ascetics cannot overtake. Thus pursued, Krishn & #769;a entered a

large

> cavern, where Muchukunda, the king of men, was asleep. The rash

> Yavana entering the cave, and beholding a man lying asleep there,

> concluded it must be Krishn & #769;a, and kicked him; at which

Muchukunda

> awoke, and casting on him an angry glance, the Yavana was

instantly

> consumed, and reduced to ashes. "

>

> The Mlechchhas against Krishn & #769;a

> Mlecchas doesn't refer to outsiders, but rather to groups around

> Aryavarta or around the Middle country where the " proper " speech

and

> yajna (more than only rituals) was performed. Mleccha speech is

> thus " inproper " speech, or better: unrefined or hybrid Sanskrit.

(or

> sounding similar to Sanskrit, but being different)

> In the Mahabharata Sabhaparva Krishn & #769;a's war with Jarasandha

(a Vasava

> Kuru king) is described with Yadavas being led to the west to

remain

> out of reach of that king, but no account is given of any siege of

> Mathura by Kalayavana. (he is briefly referred to in the

Shantiparva,

> see below)

> Bhagadatta, is called a Yavana king, who chastised Muru and

Naraka,

> ruled in the west and is one of Jarasandha's most attached

> feudatories. Sabhaparva 13.13-14:

> muram ca narakam caiva & #347;h & #257;sti yo yavan & #257;dhipau

> aparyantabalo r & #257;j & #257; prat & #299;cy & #257;m varuno yath & #257;

||13||

> bhagadatto mah & #257;r & #257;ja vrddhas tava pituh sakh & #257;

> sa v & #257;c & #257; pranatas tasya karman & #257; caiva bh & #257;rata

||14||

> " That king of the Yavanas, who hath chastised Muru and

Naraka,whose

> power is unlimited, and who ruleth the west like another Varuna,

is

> King Bhagadatta, who is the old friend of thy father, hath bowed

his

> head (before Jarasandha), by speech and specially by act, O

Bharata. "

>

> NOTE: Bhagadatta is in various other places called king of

> Pragjyotisha, as he is in a subsequent passage of the Sabhaparva.

But

> Bhagadatta, king of Yavanas, is not the same as the eastern king.

We

> must have two Bhagadattas. Shantiparva 340 (enumerating slaying

many

> demons separates them:

> " First the king of the Narakas, named together with Muru and

Pitha,

> is slain. Then another is slain, who is king of Pragjyotisha! It

also

> refers to Kalayavana briefly:

> There, after slaying innumerable Danavas that will be thorns in

the

> side of the deities, I shall take up my residence in Kusasthali at

> the city of Dwaraka. While residing in that city I shall slay the

> Asura Naraka, the son of 'the Earth,--him, that is, who will do an

> injury to Aditi, as also some 'other Danavas of the names of Muru

and

> Pitha. Slaying also another foremost of Danavas, viz., the lord of

> Pragjyotisha, I shall transplant his delightful city furnished

with

> diverse kinds of wealth into Dwaraka.

> …

> I shall next, O foremost of Brahmanas, compass the death of

> Kalayavana, a Danava who will be endued with great might in

> consequence of his being equipt with the energy of Gargya. "

>

> The Yavana king rules somewhere in the west, in the Varuna

direction,

> close to the sea. Naraka is one of the hells, probably here

referring

> to Rasa-tala, or a river close to the Narmada Valley upto its

> mouth: " the Narmadá and Surasá from the Vindhya hills " (Vi.pur

> II.3.19). Su-Rasa, the river of one of the Narakas called Rasa-

tala,

> in the Vindhyas, probably a tributary of the Narmada, or closeby.

> Surasá, in another connection, is also mother of the Nagas. (bhu-

> janga => bhumi connection).

> The Narmada enters the sea at Bhrgukaccha, showing the sphere of

> influence of the Bhargavas (Mundah) to the Yavana Turvasus.

>

> This location also tallies with the Mucukundas close to Mahishmati

> area, a city founded by an ancient Raja Mucukunda.

> The Mlecchas and barbarians referred in the text would mean

certain

> Prakrit and non-Prakrit speaking tribes and tribals in that area.

> This would mean that the Mathura Yadavas were threatened from two

> directions: from the south/southwest and from the east. First the

> Yadavas moved to the west to escape attacks and threats from the

east

> by Jarasandha. Then after having won over Bhagadatta to his side,

his

> adopted heir Kalayavana attacked them from the southwest.

>

> III. Vedic Sanskrit Javana > Paninian Sanskrit Yavana

> Horse

> Both Javana and Yavana are connected with speed and horses,

feminine

> has also curtain. (perhaps of such material as the kambalas of

their

> neighbours or cousins, the Kambojas. Kambojas are also famous for

> horse and horse trade. Ashvayanas and Ashvakayanas. Iranic

> affiliation of Kambojas, perhaps through Iranic Yavanas)

> The Brahmanda Purana (Upodghata-pada, 16-17) refers to the horses

> born in Yavana country.

> Javana > Yavana has a swiftness connection. So does Turvasu: tur =

to

> hurry, to run, press forward. Turvasu or Vedic Turvasha is always

> connected with Yadu.

>

> Mundah

> Ganapatha on Panini has:: kamboja-mun.d.ah yavana-mun.d.ah

(Ganapatha

> II.1.72)

> Mahabharata has: mundanetan...Kambojaneva (MBH 7.119.26-27);

> Munda = shaven. If it is the head which is shaven, then it points

to

> a custom of Bhargava haircut. Previously the Kambojas had a

Vasishtha

> haircut: kapardin to the right of the head as per Paraskara GS.

>

> Yavana

> 1. mfn. quick, swift; m. a swift horse L. (javana).

> 2. m. a Yavana (or a king of the Yavanas, gana kambojaádi; also an

> Indo-Greek, in later times also a Muhammadan, European, any

foreigner

> or barbarian) Mn. MBh. etc.;

> N. of a caste Gaut.DS (accord. to L. " the legitimate son of a

> Kshatriya and a Vaishyâ or " an Ugra who is an elephant catcher " )

> N. of a country (= yavana-desha) W.;

> wheat L.; a carrot L.; olibanum L.;

> pl. the Yavanas; the Bactrian Greeks (esp. the Greek astrologers)

> MBh. VarBRS. etc.; N. of a dynasty Puranas;

>

> Yavanii

> 1. f. the wife of a Yavana; the wife of an Indo-Greek or

Muhammadan

> woman Kâlid. Sish. (Yavana girls were formerly employed as

attendants

> on kings, esp. to take charge of their bows and quivers); yavanii

=

> javanii, a curtain L.;

> 2. n. salt from saline soil L.

>

> Jávana

> 1. mf(ii)n. (g. dRDhaádi; oxyt. PâN 3-2, 150) quick, swift, fleet

RV.

> i, 51, 2 ShvetUp. iii, 19 MBh. etc.;

> 2. m. a fleet horse L.; a kind of deer L.; N. of one of Skanda's

> attendants MBh. ix, 2577; pl. for yav, q.v. Kshitîsh.;

> 3. n. speed, velocity PârGR. i, 17 ShâGkhGR. MBh. iv, 1414;

>

> Javanii

> f. a curtain, screen L.; N. of a plant L.;

>

> Verbal root and rootstem

> I. juu

> (cf. jinv), cl, i. Â., 9. P. jávate, junaáti ( ju, cl. 1. P.

javati

> Dhâtup. xxii, 60, v.l.; a Sautra root PâN 3-2, 177; 3, 97 and 4,

80

> Kâsh.; Subj. 2. sg. junaás; aor, Subj. juujuvat; pf. 3. pl.

juujuvur)

> to, press forwards, hurry on, be quick RV. iii, 33, 1 ShBr. x; to

> impel quickly, urge or drive on, incite RV. TS. vi; to scare RV.

i,

> 169, 3; to excite, promote, animate, inspire RV.: Caus. aor.

> ajiijavat PâN 7-4, 80 Sch.: Caus. Desid. jijavayiSati ib. Kâsh.;

>

> II: juú

> 1. mfn. (PâN 3-2, 177 and 178 Vârtt. 2) quick, speedy, (m.)

courser

> RV. i, 134, 1 and 140, 4; (ii, 14, 3?, acc. pl.; 2. júr);

inciting,

> driving VS. ii, 17 ShBr. x, 3, 5, 2 and 5,;

> 2. f. speed L.; the atmosphere L.; a female goblin L.; Sarasvatî

L.;

> a spot on the forehead (?) of horses and oxen UN. Sch.;

>

> Yavanaanii f. the writing of the Yavanas PâN 4-1, 49 Vârtt. 3 Pat.

> Yavana mfn. (1. yu) keeping away, averting ( dveSo-yávana). <

Vedic

> accent!

>

> 1: yaavana

> mf(ii)n. (fr. yavana; for 2. and 3. p. 853, col. 1) born or

produced

> in the land of the Yavanas, Prâyashc.; m. olibanum L. _

> 2: yaavana

> n. (fr. Caus.; for 1. p. 852, col. 3; for 3. below) keeping off,

> removing Nir. Sây. _

> 3: yaavana

> n. (fr. Caus.) uniting, joining, mixing ( a-y).

>

> yavaana

> mfn. quick, swift L. (prob. w.r. for javaana).

>

> The Mahaniddesa refers to Yona and Parama Yona. (yonas in gandhara

> and kandahar?)

>

> Yavana Jataka by Yavanacharya

> He was an Acharya, a Yavana, in the court of an Indo-Greek. King

> Sphurjidhvaja has recorded his teachings. Yavana astrologers may

have

> been non-Greeks, ruled by Indo-Greeks, and influenced by

Babylonian,

> Persian and Greek sciences. There is no need to be a Greek to

follow

> Greek or Greek-influenced knowledge. Yavanas are not Greeks or

> Ionians. Stray Greeks or Ionians may have called themselves Yavana

or

> Yona as citizens of Yona visaya.

>

> Yona mentioned in Ashoka's edicts

> " Ashoka refers to a Seleucid king (Antiochus I or II)

as " Amtiyoko...

> Yonaraja " , and in other rock edicts the name Yona is applied to a

> peripheral province ( " rajavisaya " , i.e. royal dominion) of his

empire

> that was contiguous to Kamboja and Gandhara, and that was almost

> certainly Arachosia (the Kandahar region), where *all* known

Ashokan

> Greek inscriptions, directed to the king's Greek-speaking

subjects,

> are or were once located. Arachosia has long been assumed to be a

key

> Seleucid administrative center. " [F. Brighenti]

>

> NOTE: Yona is an ancient visaya. Whoever ruled over it was a Yona

> raja. As the Indo-Greek ruled over it, he was a Yona-raja or king

> over Yona visaya. The overlord of the Indo-Greek regent of Yona

> visaya was Antiochus, which naturally makes him the Yona-raja.

> Antiochus of course never ruled in Yona visaya. All the Indo-Greek

> people connected with the regent over Yona-raja were then

considered

> as Yonas.

> Yona visaya as Arachosia is an ancient Avestan center. Magi and

> Zurvan obsessed priests may have given an Avestan injection of

> astronomy/astrology to the Iranizing Yavanas.

>

> From Gujarat to Arachosia and Ghazni was also the route of the

> Yadavas. The Jaisalmer Bhati Rajputs returned after Arab attacks

from

> Ghazni to the Panjab and then to Jaisalmer. So there is no problem

in

> having Yavana Turvasus moving there. (and get partially Iranized;

> also moving to Gandhara, perhaps the Parama Yonas).

>

> The Greek influence in the Indo-Greek ruled Yona visaya is

especially

> with reference to astrology. I do not know how much is Iranian

> knowledge, influenced by Babylonia and perhaps through these

Irianian

> sphere having retrieved some Greek knowledge.

> Basically, it would be interesting to see whether Yonas, as

Iranized

> Indians, had internalized Iranian astrology (through Babylon) with

> Greek influences. Which means that (Indo-)Greeks may not directly

> have been the Acharyas (like Yavanacharya), but the Iranized

Indian

> Yonas themselves. On the contrary, one can see Indo-Greeks

becoming

> Bauddha (Menandros) and Vaishnava (Heliodoros)!

>

> Thus, I believe that too much weight or importance is given to

Yavana

> and Greek connections. The Mahabharata doesn't really support a

> Yavana coming from the west. It would be strange why it would make

> Yavanas as a branch of Turvasus. It really makes sense that they

were

> of the same ethnic and/or cultural group as the southern off shoot

> Turvasu groups. The location close to the Vindhya and Narmada also

> supports connections with tribes of the Vindhya and further south.

> (If the Yavana Turvasus are related to southern people, can they

be

> an early branched off tribe which entered Brahui areas? Are they

the

> Brahui speakers??)

> The location there also supports their Paninian " Mundah " status

> connected with the Bhrgus os bhrgukaccha. Besides, the whole

> Kalayavana episode doesn't resemble episodes of an Indo-Greek

> invasion of the 2nd century. None of the Sanskrit names resembles

any

> Indo-Greek name in meaning or sound.

> Besides, none of the Persian inscriptions of Darius never place

Yauna

> or Yauna takbara areas, referring to Ionians of Asia Minor. in the

> east! There may have been pockets of Ionian mercenaries of the

> Persian army in the east, but they were too insignificant. And

these

> certainly weren't scholars. Alexander doesn't refer to having met

any

> Greek (ruled) province in Arachosia.

>

> This new light on Yavana identity may have some effect on the date

of

> Panini, Dhatupatha and Mahabharata passages.

>

> regards,

> Ishwa

>

--- End forwarded message ---

September 11, 2008

hinducivilization , " adhin88 " <adhin88

wrote:

Dear A.K. Kaul,

I do not believe in any astrology. As for the comparisons between

Indian and Greek astronomy and astrology, I am not familiar with these

matters. I am more interested in historical developments from texts.

If people want to believe something, let them, as long as they don't

force it upon you or push it through your throat.

regards,

Ishwa

--- End forwarded message ---

September 11, 2008

, " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved@> wrote: