Fwd: [hc] Fwd Clarification - I dont know you and have no score to settle please.

September 5, 2008

hinducivilization , " Ravi " <ravi7640

wrote:

Though at a cursory glance or to an onlooker, Avatartji's posts may

appear inflamatory and against what we are brought up to trust and

believe as Hindus. He tends to call a spade a spade and does not

bother to cover up his hard fists with silk. However his masterly

knowledge of astronomy and the sacred texts of Sanathana Dharma

makes him a true critique thus making it difficult for any one to

counter his arguments. In a 'vivadham' facts are given weightage

than words or style.

Hence my humble request/opinion is not to castigate him but if any

one amongsts us has some points to counter his arguments then let us

oppose him with those.

Ravi

avtarkrishen kaul

Friday, September 05, 2008 2:05 PM

hinducivilization

[hc] Fwd Clarification - I dont know you and have no

score to settle please.

----- Forwarded message from Bhaskar -----

Thu, 04 Sep 2008 07:39:35 -0000

Bhaskar

Clarification - I dont know youand have no score to settle

please.

jyotirved

DearAvtarji,

Namaste.

First of all let me make it clear that I have noscore to settle with

you even in my draems, and neither am interestedto settle any.

My problems was rubbing the great Hindus of the past byyour

goodeslef and trying to gain some fame. This is just like MFHusain

selling nude photos of Hindu Goodesses and getting worldwideacclaim.

This is what I am against.

I read your story about how youwere pushed out of Kashmir. Should

you have expected better ? Being aPundit, a Hindu and brahmin and

talking rot about your ancestors tilldate, is the worst adharmic

denigration of any soul. You deserve to bekicked out from there. It

is because you people who ahve not remainedfaithful to your own

religion and percepts that we see Kashmir today inthe hands ofthe

worst people. You could not save your religion, youcould not save

their reputation, you could not save your motherland,and now talking

all the ghoulest possible, for your Hindu ancestors andastrologers,

whom you find weak enough to target. Your ancestors arealready dead,

so those poor souls cannot come here to defendthemselves. This is

like selling ones own mother to get money to buy anight of pleasure

from another women.

You are a misdirectedperson,who needs direction . Please stop all

this nonsese and get downto colecting public views and strenth, so

that you can liberate yourmotherland from the dirty clan of the

majority there.

And once againi say that i have no score to settle with you, i am

just bringing themirror in front of you, for your own good.

Dont waste your Lifecollecting curses, dont look for reputation by

climbing on your ownfathers dead body, dont try to impress by

treading on the weakersections.

Bhaskar.

----- End forwarded message -----

Catch all the action of Dus Ka Dum - a journey to Rs 10 crore,

simple and fast, with Salman Khan.

Latest updates / videos / images only on http://duskadum.sify.com

--- End forwarded message ---

September 8, 2008

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

Dear Raviji,

From your post, it is heartening to note that there are still people

around who want the truth to prevail at any cost!

< Though at a cursory glance or to an onlooker, Avatarji's posts may

appear inflammatory and against what we are brought up to trust and

believe as Hindus.>

In fact, I belong to a very orthodox family myself where entering a

kitchen with the shoes on is one of the most unpardonable sins!

Similarly, till a few decades back, Rahu and Kethu were the most

powerful planets according to me as well, as they could " devour " even

the sun and the moon, but because " Rahu " had a hole in his throat,

that had been inflicted on him by Sudarshana Chakra while Rahu was

trying to have Amrita in a clandestine manner, the luminaries slipped

out through that hole and were around to see yet another day!

Almost all the Kps, without exception, like most other orthodox

Hindus, avoid shaving their beards on Saturdays or Tuesdays even today

lest they annoy the most dreaded planets! I d to the same

view myself.

I did not know even ABC of jyotisha calculations but predictive

astrology was the real Vedic knowledge for me also and Varahamihira

and Prithuyashas were our deities and referred to with reverence,

especially since a Kashmiri Pandit viz. Utpala Bhat (usually known as

Bhata-utpala, which became Bhatotpala) had written commentary on the

works of the former more than a thousand years back! And I started

learning astrology myself from those commentaries!

As I cherished reading Yogavasishtha at the same time just for its

poetic beauty and diction, and the more I studied it, the more there

grew an inner conflict about " Daiva " and " purushartha " . The words of

Bhagwan Vasishtha kept on ringing in my ears:

" kaalavidbirvinirneetam yasyasti chirajeevitam, samchhina

shirashchej-jeevati tad daivam uttamam.

Kalvidbir vinirneetam yassya pandityam avikhanditam, anadeeta

vidyashcedvidwan, tad-daivam uttamama " .

A running translation of these two sholkas of Mumukshyu Vyavahama

Prakrana – 18-19--could be

" If soothsayers have predicted long life for some one and if that

someone survives after even being beheaded, then it can be said that

there is really some destiny and the soothsayers are infallible!

(Similarly) if soothsayers have predicted for someone to become a well

read person and if that someone becomes well read even without reading

any books, then it can be said that destiny matters—and the

soothsayers predictions are infallible " .

These two pithy staements were very logical and reasonable!

Then again, the same was the case with all the other shastras----all

of them, without exception, advocated purshartha and none advise to

consult some soothsayer!

The matters became worse when quite a few predictions by most of the

astrologers throughout India proved incorrect! Same was the case with

my own predictions also---a fifty-fifty chance!

I had to revise the astronomical parameters under the impression that

maybe our ganitam was wrong and that is why the modern predictions

proved a mirage whereas the predictions of Varahamiohira and

Prithuyashas etc. had always proved correct---at least that is what we

were made to believe!

The long and short of that " astronomical journey " is that I found that

we were using non-existent Lahiri or Ramana or Kharegat or Yukteshwara

etc. etc. nirayana rashis for astrology and also for our muhurtas and

fasts and fairs since all our shastras referred to a Mesha Rashi which

was another name of Vasanta-Sampat (Vernal Equinox---when the

day=night) or Makar Sankrnait when the days is the shortest

day---Uttarayana---(Winter Solstice) and so on! It can be safely said

that all the Puranas, without fail, refer to a so called Sayana

Rashichakra, which means that we should have followed that rashichakra

for phalita jyotisha as well as fasts, fairs and muhurtas!

However, much to my own dismay, I found that we could not link

nakshatras to Sayana Rashis then i.e. if the Vernal Equinox was

conjunct the Aries (Beta Arietis) Star--or in Ashvini nakshatra--in

about first century CE, it could not remain so for long! To make

maters worse, after going through the Vedas once again, I found that

there were no Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis at all but just the names of

months like Madhu, Madhava etc. Similarly, nakshatras---all the

twenty-seven or even twenty-eight of them----had an independent

existence of their own unrelated to any Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis,

since Rashis did not exist at all as per the Vedas!

Very late in the day, thus, it dawned on me that practicing predictive

gimmicks in the name of " Vedic astrology " was rally the greatest fraud

being played on the Vedas!

< He tends to call a spade a spade and does not bother to cover up his

hard fists with silk.>

I do not believe in blowing my own trumpet, but now that the point

has been raised, a few clarifications may simplify the matters:

I had been publishing Shri Krishen Universal Ephemeris from 1984

onwards, and I had been keeping all my findings before the general

public through them till as late as 2001. I sent complimentary copies

of those works by registered post to all the stalwarts of astrology,

and most of those panchangas were reviewed by all the leading

astrological journals. I also met personally almost all the leading

astrologers including the late Dr. B. V. Raman; the present Jyotisha

Consultant of " the Bhavan " ; the editors and editors-in-chief of the

magazines like Express Star Teller; Mystic India; Times of Astrology,

Babaji, Madha Jyothidam (Tamil) etc. etc. and explained in as polite

a manner as possible to all of them as to how we were celebrating all

our festivals on wrong days! I even sent personal Registered letters

and panchangas to all the six Shankaracharyas with a request that we

must revise our format for festivals and muhurtas! However, till

date, there has been nothing but a deafening silence from all the

quarters simply because they did/do not have the courage to admit at

this late stage that they were/are be-fooling the public in the name

of " Vedic astrology " .

I even followed it up with the Government of India when BJP was at the

helm of affairs, with the pious hope that being a party of the Hindus,

they would definitely do something about it! But they were actually

more interested in reviving predictive gimmicks for their vote bank

than to celebrate festivals and muhurtas on correct days!

And as is evident from my present posts, I am still doing the same

thing---- asking all the overseas " Vamadevas " and their " Indian

counter-parts " through personal posts and emails on different forums

and speeches from different platforms that we have to streamline our

calendars but that is the only thing they want to postpone till Doomsday!

< In a 'vivadham' facts are given weightage than words or style. >

In this `vivadham' actually there are not facts in favour of " Vedic

astrologers " ! It is not only that they are compelling us to celebrate

all our festivals on wrong days, but their " academic discussions " are

pathetic! As `pramanam' for the same, if you just visit any

astrological forum, whether " Vedic astrology " or " ancient astrology "

or " Hyderabad astrology " etc. etc. you will see hair splitting going

on about the birth time rectification of Obama and McCain or even

lengthy discussions about " Abhukta Mula " and " CP Ayanamsha versus CH

ayanamsha " etc. etc. but what is most distressing to note is that no

jyotishi is discussing the problems the country is facing---e.g. the

Bihar floods or Singur vis-à-vis Nano and Mamta or a ten year high

inflation rate etc. etc. or even the " Nuclear Deal " which some call

" the mother of all deals " !

In spite of having obtained " doctorates " in " predictive gimmicks " ,

no astrologer, I repeat no astrologer, including overseas " Vamadevas "

and the " Astrological Director of Bhavan " and the

Owners-cum-Moderators of " Vedic-astrology " groups or any " Vedic

jyotish " magazine had even hinted that there would be such

unprecedented floods in Bihar or there would be such a crisis about

industrialization in WB or that India would reel under inflation and

so on! Nor had anybody predicted the regionalism of some party of a

particular state, asking everybody to leave that state if he/she was

not born there or could not converse in that particular regional language!

Whichever TV channel we watch, whatever jyotisha forum we vist, all

that the " Vedic astrologers " are dishing out out are tidbits to their

clients as placebos after creating fear psychoses in them like Shani

Amavasya or Mangal and Shani coming together and two eclipses in

succession and so on! It is thus clear that these jyotishis are not

interested in the betterment of the country---all they are interested

in is their bank balance and awards as " top notch jyotishis at par

with Varahamihira " ---Let the dharmshastra go to hel, why bother abouit

that---according to them!

As is clear as on date that through my untiring efforts, all the

jyotishis are aware by now that they are following non-existent

rashicharkras---whether Sayana or Nirayana---since there are no Rashis

either as per the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha or even modern

astronomy! The zodiac cannot be divided into twelve neat

compartments/divisions, however hard these jyotishis may try!

Astronomically it is impossible to do so and that is why the Vedic

Seers never made such a foolish attempt! That is also why the Vedas

named the twelve months as Madhu, Madhava etc. ---twelve unequal

divisions of a seasonal year instead of twelve equal divisions of the

zodiac!

Though these jyotishis know these facts and though they know that they

are following adhrma, yet they do not have the courage to admit it!

There is a sholka in the Mbh, as per which Duryodhana has said

" janami dharmam na cha me pravaritih janami adharmam na cha me nivritih "

i.e. " I know what dharma is, but I have no inclination to follow the

same. I also know what adharma is but I do not want to desist from

following the same "

These jyoitishis also know---all of them, right from the top-notch to

the bottom rung—---that they are taking the public for a ride by

predictive gimmicks, and making all the Hindus celebrate all their

festivals and muhurtas on wrong days! But they do not have the courage

to admit that! Thus they are worse than Duryodhana, since at least he

had the courage to admit that he did not want to follow dharma (and

give their dues to the Pandavas).

< Hence my humble request/opinion is not to castigate him>

It is so encouraging that you are going all out to support the cause

of dharma. Dharmo rakshyati rakshitah. It will certainly save the

Hindu community from its own enemies in the garb of friends and well

wishers!

< but if any one amongst us has some points to counter his arguments

then let us oppose him with those. >

I shall look forward to the counter arguments as I am really a learner

and if those counter arguments are supported by proofs, I shall

certainly change my views thankfully, if need be.

With kind personal regards,

Avtar

hinducivilization , " Ravi " <ravi7640@> wrote:

>

> Though at a cursory glance or to an onlooker, Avatartji's posts may

appear inflamatory and against what we are brought up to trust and

believe as Hindus. He tends to call a spade a spade and does not

bother to cover up his hard fists with silk. However his masterly

knowledge of astronomy and the sacred texts of Sanathana Dharma makes

him a true critique thus making it difficult for any one to counter

his arguments. In a 'vivadham' facts are given weightage than words or

style.

> Hence my humble request/opinion is not to castigate him but if any

one amongsts us has some points to counter his arguments then let us

oppose him with those.

> Ravi

> avtarkrishen kaul

> Friday, September 05, 2008 2:05 PM

> hinducivilization

> [hc] Fwd Clarification - I dont know you and have no

score to settle please.

>

> ----- Forwarded message from Bhaskar -----

> Thu, 04 Sep 2008 07:39:35 -0000

> Bhaskar

> Clarification - I dont know youand have no score to settle

please.

> jyotirved@

>

> DearAvtarji,

>

> Namaste.

>

> First of all let me make it clear that I have noscore to settle with

> you even in my draems, and neither am interestedto settle any.

> My problems was rubbing the great Hindus of the past byyour

> goodeslef and trying to gain some fame. This is just like MFHusain

> selling nude photos of Hindu Goodesses and getting worldwideacclaim.

> This is what I am against.

>

> I read your story about how youwere pushed out of Kashmir. Should

> you have expected better ? Being aPundit, a Hindu and brahmin and

> talking rot about your ancestors tilldate, is the worst adharmic

> denigration of any soul. You deserve to bekicked out from there. It

> is because you people who ahve not remainedfaithful to your own

> religion and percepts that we see Kashmir today inthe hands ofthe

> worst people. You could not save your religion, youcould not save

> their reputation, you could not save your motherland,and now talking

> all the ghoulest possible, for your Hindu ancestors andastrologers,

> whom you find weak enough to target. Your ancestors arealready dead,

> so those poor souls cannot come here to defendthemselves. This is

> like selling ones own mother to get money to buy anight of pleasure

> from another women.

>

> You are a misdirectedperson,who needs direction . Please stop all

> this nonsese and get downto colecting public views and strenth, so

> that you can liberate yourmotherland from the dirty clan of the

> majority there.

>

> And once againi say that i have no score to settle with you, i am

> just bringing themirror in front of you, for your own good.

>

> Dont waste your Lifecollecting curses, dont look for reputation by

> climbing on your ownfathers dead body, dont try to impress by

> treading on the weakersections.

>

> Bhaskar.

>

> ----- End forwarded message -----

>

> Catch all the action of Dus Ka Dum - a journey to Rs 10 crore,

simple and fast, with Salman Khan.

> Latest updates / videos / images only on http://duskadum.sify.com

>

--- End forwarded message ---

September 8, 2008

, " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved wrote:

hinducivilization , " Avtar Krishen Kaul "

<jyotirved@> wrote:

Dear Raviji,

From your post, it is heartening to note that there are still people

around who want the truth to prevail at any cost!

< Though at a cursory glance or to an onlooker, Avatarji's posts may

appear inflammatory and against what we are brought up to trust and

believe as Hindus.>

In fact, I belong to a very orthodox family myself where entering a

kitchen with the shoes on is one of the most unpardonable sins!

Similarly, till a few decades back, Rahu and Kethu were the most

powerful planets according to me as well, as they could " devour " even

the sun and the moon, but because " Rahu " had a hole in his throat,

that had been inflicted on him by Sudarshana Chakra while Rahu was

trying to have Amrita in a clandestine manner, the luminaries

slipped

out through that hole and were around to see yet another day!

Almost all the Kps, without exception, like most other orthodox

Hindus, avoid shaving their beards on Saturdays or Tuesdays even

today

lest they annoy the most dreaded planets! I d to the same

view myself.

I did not know even ABC of jyotisha calculations but predictive

astrology was the real Vedic knowledge for me also and Varahamihira

and Prithuyashas were our deities and referred to with reverence,

especially since a Kashmiri Pandit viz. Utpala Bhat (usually known as

Bhata-utpala, which became Bhatotpala) had written commentary on the

works of the former more than a thousand years back! And I started

learning astrology myself from those commentaries!

As I cherished reading Yogavasishtha at the same time just for its

poetic beauty and diction, and the more I studied it, the more there

grew an inner conflict about " Daiva " and " purushartha " . The words of

Bhagwan Vasishtha kept on ringing in my ears:

" kaalavidbirvinirneetam yasyasti chirajeevitam, samchhina

shirashchej-jeevati tad daivam uttamam.

Kalvidbir vinirneetam yassya pandityam avikhanditam, anadeeta

vidyashcedvidwan, tad-daivam uttamama " .

A running translation of these two sholkas of Mumukshyu Vyavahama

Prakrana – 18-19--could be

" If soothsayers have predicted long life for some one and if that

someone survives after even being beheaded, then it can be said that

there is really some destiny and the soothsayers are infallible!

(Similarly) if soothsayers have predicted for someone to become a

well

read person and if that someone becomes well read even without

reading

any books, then it can be said that destiny matters—and the

soothsayers predictions are infallible " .

These two pithy staements were very logical and reasonable!

Then again, the same was the case with all the other shastras----all

of them, without exception, advocated purshartha and none advise to

consult some soothsayer!

The matters became worse when quite a few predictions by most of the

astrologers throughout India proved incorrect! Same was the case

with

my own predictions also---a fifty-fifty chance!

I had to revise the astronomical parameters under the impression that

maybe our ganitam was wrong and that is why the modern predictions

proved a mirage whereas the predictions of Varahamiohira and

Prithuyashas etc. had always proved correct---at least that is what

we

were made to believe!

The long and short of that " astronomical journey " is that I found

that

we were using non-existent Lahiri or Ramana or Kharegat or

Yukteshwara

etc. etc. nirayana rashis for astrology and also for our muhurtas and

fasts and fairs since all our shastras referred to a Mesha Rashi

which

was another name of Vasanta-Sampat (Vernal Equinox---when the

day=night) or Makar Sankrnait when the days is the shortest

day---Uttarayana---(Winter Solstice) and so on! It can be safely

said

that all the Puranas, without fail, refer to a so called Sayana

Rashichakra, which means that we should have followed that

rashichakra