Guest guest Posted August 29, 2008 Report Share Posted August 29, 2008 jyotirved [jyotirved] Friday, August 29, 2008 6:35 PM 'IndiaArchaeology ' Cc: 'HinduCalendar '; Connecdtion of Greeks with India Dear Sunilji, <Please recheck the Sanskrit verse. I read the verse quite sometime ago and the correct meaning of that verse is as follows ..Yavanas are mlechhas….> The Venkateshswar Press, Mumbai, edition of Varahi (Brihat) Samhit reads the shloka as " mlechha hi yavanas... " whereas a handwritten copy in Kashmir, with a commentary by Utpala Bhata (he is known usually as Bhatot-pala) that I had inherited from my maternal grandfather had said, " yavanah hi mlechhas.. " . (I do not know as to the “fate” of that manuscript now--perhaps a bonfire of the same was made by infiltrators who had been occupying that house ever since 1990!). In any case, the meaning of whether " mlechha hi yavanas.. " or " yavanah hi mlechhah " cannot be " (all) mlechhas are yavanas " ---that just is not practically possible!---but it can only be " (all) yavanas are mlechhas " and by Yavanas, Varahamihira did not mean any other community in the context there but just the Greeks! < Secondly you must be aware that Yajnvalkya Smriti says that a King must consult astrologer> Pl. quote the exact references! Secondly, if any " Yajnyavalkya " has said that a king must consult astrologer, that certainly must be a post Varahamihia’s Brihat Samhita interpolation by some fake “Yajnyavalkya” since that Yajnyavalkya can never be the Yajnyavalkya of Channdogya and/or Brihad Arnyaka Upanishada, who had accepted the challenge of all the other priests/participants in the Rajasooya Yajnya of Janaka that only a " Brahmajnyani could carry the thousand cows with him " . As such, If any Yajnyavalkya has advised the king to appoint/consult a " nakshatra-soochi " he certainly must be some namesake or even an impostor of Yajnyavalkya just as we have half a dozen Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra editions by some jyotishis of the last couple of centuries, all claiming to be the works by Maharshi Parashara, the father of Krishna Dvaipayana Vedavyasa since the Yajnyavalkya of Brihad-Arnyaka Upanishad could never have advised King Janaka to appoint a jyotishi as advisor! For that matter, there is also “Jaimini sutram”–--which is just a predictive astrology hocus-pocus setting entirely different rules for the same ---and that work also is supposed to be the “creation” of Jaimini Rishi of Poorva-mimasa! Even a Ravana Samhita is floating around and it is said to be written by the famous king Ravana who had abducted Sita! That is, of course, besides, Brighu and Aruna etc. etc. Samhitas galore---all by fake Brighus and Ravanas and Arunas! Thirdly, all our shastras, including the Manusmriti, have advised the king to be vigilant at every point of time and not be on the mercy of “nakshatra-soochis”. The Manu has said (and I am just quoting it from my memory-- " bakavat chintayet arthan simhavat cha parakramet " i.e “ A king must be as concentrated on his aim as a kingfisher is and (when the proper time comes) he must attack like a lion " . Manu has advised everybody without exception that he/she should never blame fate for anything but must continue with his/her efforts. Thus, if the Manu advised vanaprasthis particularly that they should not indulge in being nakshatra-soochis, that cannot mean, by any stretch of imagination, that he has advised grahasthis to be nakshara-soochis! If the Manu had desired non-Vanaprasthis to be “nakshatra-soochis” he could have said in simple words in the chapters of " dos and don’ts " that “a brahmin can also be a nakshatra-soochi”! I have also yet to find any shastra where any Rishi has advised anybody to consult some soothsayer before embarking on any work! Yoga-sutras of Patanjali also are very emphatic that a yogi can foresee everything but then he must detest such sidhis like plague! There are also instances galore that the personal fate of " nakshatra-soochis " ---end of their journey on this planet---has not been a very peaceful one! Their descendants also ultimately suffer---maybe because the " sins of father often visit his children " and may be because Mother Nature is very ruthless with anyone who tries to poke his/her dirty nose in her " other-worldly " affairs! I am sure you won’t ask me to “quote examples” but you will just cast your glance around to see what I mean! This is clear from the fact that there were omniscient Rishis in the past but even they did not divulge before hand as to what was going to happen to whom and when! Common sense also tells us that if the Mother Nature wanted to reveal to everybody as to what was going to befall him/her, there would have be no need to go to such absurd lengths to hide from him/her the activities of his earlier janmas!! Let me cite just a couple of instances: When Dasharatha wanted to anoint Bhagwan Rama as the Prince Regent, the first thing he did was to consult his Kulaguru, Bhagwan Vasishtha, about his desire/plans and also for a proper muhurta. It is said in the Valmiki Ramayana that just the next day was decided for that “coronation” because of the nakshtra being proper---perhaps it was Tishya--I am not sure!. Obviously, Vasishtha Rishi did not caution Dasharatha that he was going to commit a " suicidal act " by naming Rama as Prince Regent at that stage! On the other hand, he just let the things take their normal turn! That means that even if someone knows as to what is going to happen and when, he/she must just keep quiet and not interfere in such matters! Then in the Mbh. a lot of " omens " like " vishvaghasra-paksha " etc. have been discussed, but we do not find either the Pandvas or the Kauravas having consulted some soothsayer about the outcome of the war! On the other hand, in the battlefield itself, when Arjuna says, " naitadvidmah kataran-no gareeyo, yadva jayema yadi va no jayeyuh.. " i.e. " ....We do not know whether we (Pandvas) will win the Kauravas or it will be the other way round " , it is clear from the same that nobody had consulted any jyotishis, especially since none was around then as this type of a malady had never existed at that stage in India. And as if to remove any doubts about consulting some soothsayer, Bhagwan Krishna did not advise Arjuna, “O Kuntiputra, you just go to Parshara Rishi. Request him to check from his Brihat Parashari as to what Dasha-Bhukti and Gochara and Ashtakavarga etc. you are running and also as to what ‘remedial measures’ you should do to win the war”. That is at least what the charlatan Varahamihira and his “shishyas” viz. today’s “Vedic astrologers” would have done! Bhagwan Krishna just replied, " Hato va prapsyasi swargam, jitva va bokshyase maheem " ---i.e. " If you get killed, you will go to the heavens and if you win the war, you will be the lord of the entire globe " . Similarly, in spite of being " shodasha kala sampoorna avatar " i.e. Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent, Lord Krishna did not tell Arjuna either as to who would win the war! Krishna just advised Arjuna " klaibyam ma sma gamah partha naitat tvayui upapadyate, kshyudram hridaya darbalyam tyaktvotishtha parantapai " ---i.e. " don’t be such a nincompoop! just cast aside your mental sloth and be ready for the battlefield " That exactly is the summum-bonum of all our shastras " kurvaneva eha karmani jijeevishet shatam samaha... " . i.e. “You must aspire to live a hundred years but continue to do your karma---instead of running after jyotishis!”—Mandukya Upanishad. As against this uncertainty of Arjuna about the outcome of the battle, the same Mbh. tell us about the certainty of Karna, the half/step brother of Arjuna, when he says to Krishna, " I know fully well that Pandvas will win the war " . It was not that Karna had consulted some soothsayer for that purpose but just see Karna’s logic when he says in the same breath " since you the Master of the Universes is his charioteer (that is why Pandavas will win the war)! But even then, I will do my dharma to fight on behalf of Duryodhana though I know I will get killed in the battlefield " . In the same Mbh, Bhishma is very sure and ruthless about the treatment to be meted out to nakshatra-soochis “Just treat such Brahmins as chandalas”! And that is that! < However lying and cheating have been condemned in the Mahabharata, which advocates " Lokasangraha " , ie. doing good to people.> Do you think there can be any worse “cheating and lying” than propagating “Vedic astrology” when there are no Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis or the most dreaded planets viz. Mangal and Shani etc. either in the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha? What type of “lokasangraha” is it what “good is it doing to them”. Even logically, why can't we just ponder on the fact that it was and is IMPOSSIBLE for any predictions to have been correct since all the works right from the Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha through Ganesha Davijnyas Grahalaghava had wrong fundamental arguments whereas there is a worse mess today with the cacophony of zillions of Ayanamshas---Lahiri, Ramana, Fagan, Zero, Chandra Hari, Chopra, Yukteshwar and what not---besides Vismshotari, Ashtotari, Yogini, Kalachakra, Manduka etc. etc. thirty-six types of Dasha-bhuktis as per the " bible " of " Vedic astrologers " viz. the Brihat Parashari! And don’t you think all such jargon about our ancestors having made correct predictions on the basis of incorrect astronomical data or the claims of jyotishis that they are going by the words of Parahsara or Brighu or Jaimini etc. is “lying and cheating”? Let us also check the “past records”. We are supposed to be practicing “Vedic astrology” over the last at least seven thousand years ---from the time of the Rig-Veda! However, there is nothing on record to show that anybody whether Varahamihira or his son Prithuyashas or any other jyotishi over the last several thousand years had ever made any prediction on the basis of “Vedic astrology” as to which disaster would take place where and when! There was a hearsay in Kashmir that King Nala had lost his empire and fallen on penury to such an extent that he had to tear the half of the sari of his consort Damayanti to cover his naked body----all just because king Nala was having Saturn’s Sade sati then! When I checked the entire Mbh. from cover to cover with a tooth comb, I could not find any Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis there, so there was no question of any “Sade-sati”. All I could find there was that Nala had lost his empire just because he was a bad gambler---exactly like Pandavas had lost not only their empire but even their consort Draupadi because of gambling! Don’t you think floating such hearsays by jyoishis is “lying and cheating”? And what good is it “doing to people”? Then in the recent past, there have been instances galore where all the jyotishis were caught napping, if not on the wrong foot e.g. whether it was Chandra-Shekhar or P V Narasimha Rao or Deve Gowda or I K Gujral etc. nobody, I repeat nobody, had ever predicted anything about their being the Heads of the largest democracy of the world! Same is the case about the present PM! Nobody had predicted that “Singh will be the king”. If the fate/future of such important personalities as are to be the Heads of the largest democracy of the world cannot be judged before-hand, it is a moot point that any ordinary Tom, Dick or Harry will have a better “luck” at the hands of jyotishis! Why don’t these jyotishis predict today as to when the next flood or Tsunami or disaster is going to take place and in which part of which state of which country and come to the rescue of the governments? They can win a Nobel Prize if they really have such acumen! Why are they always vague like “there will be disasters and storms and a leader may die and…” All just ambiguous statements! Great cry and little wool! Virtual “lying and cheating”. Leave alone mundane affairs, no jyiotishi has ever predicted anybody’s death---even his/her own death before hand! There also they have always been caught on the wrong foot! A couple of years back there was a great tamasha when a leading “Vedic astrologer” had predicted that Mr. ……of Betul (MP) would pass away at exact 4-30 pm on that date and all the TV channels had gone to the town with all that tamasha! And that Jyotishi of Betul is still going strong and so is that “great astrologer” who made a laughing stock of himself! People surely have extremely poor memories in such cases, since that “Great jyotishi” is still attached as advisor for “Vedic astrology” with all the pomp and paraphernalia to a “Bhavan”! If all that is not “lying and cheating” what else is it then? What “good” has that tamasha done to “people” and what type of “lokasangraha” was that? Then what is most ironic is that all the eighteen Puranas like Srimad Bhagavata, Shiva Maha-purana, Vishnudharmotara-purana, Devi Bhagavata, Linga Purana etc. etc. proclaim in one voice that Mesha Sankranti is another name of Vernal Equinox when the day and night are equal and that is also the name of (solar) Vaishakha and Vedic Madhava. Similarly, all those Puranas also say that Makara Sankranti is nothing but a synonym of Uttarayana i.e. the Winter Solstice, the shortest day of the year and that very Sankranti is the start of the Vedic month Tapah/Magha and so on! You could thus say that the puranas want us to follow a so called Sayana Rashichakra---though let me caution you that Rashis are neither sayana nor nirayana, since there are no rashis astronomically---they are just non-existent and sheer imaginations of Jyotishis---Western and Eastern! Why are the “Vedic jyotishis” then going by a so called Lahiri Rashichakra or Ramana Rashichakra etc. etc. not only for their predictive gimmicks but even fasts, fairs and muhurtas? Don’t you think that is “lying and cheating”? I can understand your curiosity about my such vehemence about “Vedic astrology” and even “Vedic astrologers” but I am sure you know it already that the net outcome of all our fatal infatuation with fatalism on the shoulders of " Vedic astrology " has been that we have been celebrating all our muhurtas and festivals on wrong days, thanks to the Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha and Varahamihira the charlatan! I have been crying literally from housetops about the same and by now it is a certainty that the only motive for propagating " Vedic astrology " is that the Hindu community must never be able to celebrate its muhurts and festivals on proper days! And because I am pointing out all these anachronisms, I am being dubbed as a “Muslim who got converted to Kashmiri Pundit” with a hidden agenda! There is no “hidden agenda” on my part. It is an open one---to streamline the real Hindu calendar! As such, will these “Vedic jyotishis” please have some God’s fear in their hearts and just do some introspection since after all, in spite of claiming to be omniscient, they certainly do not know that they may just pass on to the other world next moment and there they will definitely have to answer a lot of questions! Or are they---the “Vedic astrologers”----acting up to some “agenda” on behalf of some overseas “Vamadevas” for whom our continuing to celebrate our festivals and muhurtas on wrong days is the only way out to keep us tethered to “adharma” and thereby lead us to our own downfall---since those “Vamadevas” know---whether we know it or not!---that “dharmo rakshyati rakshitah, dharmo hanti hatah” and when the entire Hindu community celebrates all its festivals and muhurtas on wrong days, they are certainly killing their own dharma and thus leading themselves to their own downfall just to please some overseas “Vamadevas”, courtesy “Vedic astrologers”! The Hindu community must certainly try to find answers to all these very inconvenient questions! With regards, A K Kaul IndiaArchaeology , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya wrote: > > DearAvtarji, > > QUOTE > > A running translation of the same could be > > " Yavanas are mlechhas. This shastra, i.e. predictive astrology, is > well established in them. As such, even they (in spite of being > mlechhas) are 'worshipped' like Rishis. It goes without saying that > Brahmins will be treated with a much better respect, if they learn > jyotisha (phalita) " > > UNQUOTE > > > > Please recheck the Sanskrit verse. I read the verse quite sometime ago and the correct meaning of that verse is as follows: > > Even the mlechha Yavanas, who learnt astrology are being respected, what then will be the respect that the Brahmins (who know astrology) will get. > > Secondly you must be aware that Yajnvalkya Smriti says that a King must consult astrologer. Of course Manu Smriti did not allow astrology to be practised by the Vanaprasthis while begging for alms. This is because if they earn their livelihood through astrology then they will not succeed in casting off their ego, which is the main purpose of living on alms. From this it is clear that barring the Vanaprasthis there was no restriction on anybody else for practising astrology. However lying and cheating have been condemned in the Mahabharata, which advocates " Lokasangraha " , ie. doing good to people. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved > IndiaArchaeology > Wednesday, August 27, 2008 6:58:48 AM > [ind-Arch] Re: Connection of Greeks with India > > > Dear Subrahmanyaji, > There are quite a few references in the Puranas to Yavanas. Yavans > have been treated as " papas " i.e. a " sinful commuity " in the > following shloka of the Bahgavata (or perhaps Mahabharata- --I am > right now not sure since I am just drawing from my memory!): > " aabheera kankah yavanah khasadayah > ye anye cha papap yad upashryaya shryah, shudyanti tasmay prabha > vishnave namah " > a simple translation of the same could be > > " My pranams to such a Vishnu who can purify 'papayonis' like > abheeras, kankas, yavanas and khasas--after they take refuge in Him " . > > However the word yavanas is taken as an exclusive reference to the > Greeks after the " famous " words of Varahamihira in his Brihat Samhita > " yavnah hi mlechhah, teshu samyak shastram idam sthitam > rishi vat te api pujyante, kim punarveda-vid dvijah " > > A running translation of the same could be > > " Yavanas are mlechhas. This shastra, i.e. predictive astrology, is > well established in them. As such, even they (in spite of being > mlechhas) are 'worshipped' like Rishis. It goes without saying that > Brahmins will be treated with a much better respect, if they learn > jyotisha (phalita) " > > Obviously, Varahamihira was not referrring to any other community by > the word " Yavanas " except for Greeks since they were the ones who had > introduced the Surya Sidhanta as well as Sphujidwaja' s Yvana-jatakam! > The latter has very ably and skilfully been edited and translated by > Dr. Pingree, and published by Harvard University Press in 1970, > whatever some " phalit jyotishis " may say! > > Vrahamihira has said at several places in his Brihat Jatakam " Yavnah > Oochuh " i.e. " yavnas have said thus " . He has also referred to > several Greek names in his works. > > (Lest some " brahmins " start " selling their astrologcial ware---as if > they are not already doing so!---since Varahamihira has advised them > to do so, a word of caution is necessary: > As against such a praise for phalita jytoisha by Vrahamihira, who > wants a " mlechha " also to be treated as a " Rishi " if he > knows " phalita jyotisha " , Bhishma Pitamaha has summarily dismissed > such brahmins as " Chandaralas " who are nakshatra-soochis! ) > > Then again, Varahamihira, instead of being a great astronomer, was > the worst charlatan of the last one-and-a-half millennium according > to me! In his Brihat Samhita he has said, " spashtataro savitrah " > i.e. " the Surya Sidhanta (by Maya, again a Yavana and therefore a > mlechha!) is the most accurate work out of all the five sidhantas of > the Panchasihdantika " . Obviously, he must have been preparing his > ephemeris/panchagna s and even the horoscopes of his clients from the > same " most accurate work " from which he must have been > making " correct predictions " as well! > > It is an " open secrete " by now that the Surya Sidhanta is one of the > most monstrous astronomical works that could ever have been > produced! Its fundamental arguments are just sheer imagination > without any actual observations! It cries from house tops that Makar > Sankranti is a synonym of Uttarayana and Dakshinayana that of Karka > Sankranti and also Mesha Sankranti is another name of Vernal Equinox > whereas Autumn Eqinox is nothing but Tula Sankranti! That > naturally means that it is talking of the same rashichakra of Greek > constellations that was prevailing in Grecho-Chaldean astrology at > the time of Alexander " the Great " ! But in the same breath, the same > Surya Sidhanta clubs Ashvini nakshatra with the vernal Equinox right > from the dawn of the creation till its doomsday! > > Then again, the duration of the year should naturally have been > tropical but in its fundamental arguments, the duration of the year > is neither tropical nor sidereal but just eight palas---3.5 seconds > approximately- --more than even the sidereal year! > What is most ironic is that there are no secular variations at all--- > again right from the dawn of creation till the doomsday! That means > it just gives a uniform average daily motion of not only the sun and > the moon but all the planets as well, from Mercury to Shani and also > Rahu---throughout the " kalpa " --- as many as 4,320,000,000 years! > > No wonder our ancestors (including Varahamihira! ) were > making " correct (sic!) " predictions from the horoscopes prepared from > panchangas based on the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha because > till about a century back, i.e. till the advent of modern astronomy > into India, such sidhanas or karnagranthas were " the most accurate > astronomical works " of Hindu astrologers who call themselves " Vedic > jyotishis " now a days! > However, the net outcome of this " treating mlechhas as rishis " has > been that the entire Hindu community is celebrating all its festivals > and muhurtas on worng days, thanks to " Vedic asrologers " and > their " Vedic astrology " ! > With regards, > Avtar Krishen Kaul > > -- In IndiaArchaeology, " subrahmanyas2000 " > <subrahmanyas@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Carlos, > > You ask an extremely pertinent question. > > AK Narain in his book Indo-Greeks deals briefly with this > > issue. > > > > As you know, Alexander's journey to India is considered > > an 'anchor' for Indian chronology. But there are big > > time problems with it. (not just the Sandracottus issue) > > > > The question is about where exactly into India > > did Alexander reach and where he turned back. > > This distance/time difference could affect by a few > > months as to where exactly Alexander stopped and have > > a huge influence on issue of chronology in India. > > There is a big question as to where exactly Alexander > > turned back - was it in the punjab , or was it much further > > west in Afghanistan. There was more than one Puru - > > there was one eastern Pururvas, and a western Pururvas > > (all that it means is that they were of Puru clan). > > Also, there is the issue of whether rivers were in spate > > because of rains or whether because of spring melting of > > the snow. > > > > While the relative chronology of India is allright, the absolute > > chronology of India needs some strong reevaluation. > > This again goes back to dating the Rigveda, Buddha etc etc... > > > > > > regards, > > Subrahmanya > > > > IndiaArchaeology, " Carlos Aramayo " > > <cararam50@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Other interesting thing for me is why Greeks of Alexander times > > > could be seen as Ionians/Yona if Alexander troops may have been > > > Macedonians in majority. > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Carlos > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 29, 2008 Report Share Posted August 29, 2008 , " jyotirved " <jyotirved wrote: _____ jyotirved [jyotirved] Friday, August 29, 2008 6:35 PM 'IndiaArchaeology ' Cc: 'HinduCalendar '; Connecdtion of Greeks with India Dear Sunilji, <Please recheck the Sanskrit verse. I read the verse quite sometime ago and the correct meaning of that verse is as follows ..Yavanas are mlechhas..> The Venkateshswar Press, Mumbai, edition of Varahi (Brihat) Samhit reads the shloka as " mlechha hi yavanas... " whereas a handwritten copy in Kashmir, with a commentary by Utpala Bhata (he is known usually as Bhatot- pala) that I had inherited from my maternal grandfather had said, " yavanah hi mlechhas.. " . (I do not know as to the " fate " of that manuscript now--perhaps a bonfire of the same was made by infiltrators who had been occupying that house ever since 1990!). In any case, the meaning of whether " mlechha hi yavanas.. " or " yavanah hi mlechhah " cannot be " (all) mlechhas are yavanas " ---that just is not practically possible!---but it can only be " (all) yavanas are mlechhas " and by Yavanas, Varahamihira did not mean any other community in the context there but just the Greeks! < Secondly you must be aware that Yajnvalkya Smriti says that a King must consult astrologer> Pl. quote the exact references! Secondly, if any " Yajnyavalkya " has said that a king must consult astrologer, that certainly must be a post Varahamihia's Brihat Samhita interpolation by some fake " Yajnyavalkya " since that Yajnyavalkya can never be the Yajnyavalkya of Channdogya and/or Brihad Arnyaka Upanishada, who had accepted the challenge of all the other priests/participants in the Rajasooya Yajnya of Janaka that only a " Brahmajnyani could carry the thousand cows with him " . As such, If any Yajnyavalkya has advised the king to appoint/consult a " nakshatra-soochi " he certainly must be some namesake or even an impostor of Yajnyavalkya just as we have half a dozen Brihat Parashara Hora Shastra editions by some jyotishis of the last couple of centuries, all claiming to be the works by Maharshi Parashara, the father of Krishna Dvaipayana Vedavyasa since the Yajnyavalkya of Brihad-Arnyaka Upanishad could never have advised King Janaka to appoint a jyotishi as advisor! For that matter, there is also " Jaimini sutram " ---which is just a predictive astrology hocus-pocus setting entirely different rules for the same ---and that work also is supposed to be the " creation " of Jaimini Rishi of Poorva-mimasa! Even a Ravana Samhita is floating around and it is said to be written by the famous king Ravana who had abducted Sita! That is, of course, besides, Brighu and Aruna etc. etc. Samhitas galore---all by fake Brighus and Ravanas and Arunas! Thirdly, all our shastras, including the Manusmriti, have advised the king to be vigilant at every point of time and not be on the mercy of " nakshatra-soochis " . The Manu has said (and I am just quoting it from my memory-- " bakavat chintayet arthan simhavat cha parakramet " i.e " A king must be as concentrated on his aim as a kingfisher is and (when the proper time comes) he must attack like a lion " . Manu has advised everybody without exception that he/she should never blame fate for anything but must continue with his/her efforts. Thus, if the Manu advised vanaprasthis particularly that they should not indulge in being nakshatra-soochis, that cannot mean, by any stretch of imagination, that he has advised grahasthis to be nakshara-soochis! If the Manu had desired non-Vanaprasthis to be " nakshatra-soochis " he could have said in simple words in the chapters of " dos and don'ts " that " a brahmin can also be a nakshatra-soochi " ! I have also yet to find any shastra where any Rishi has advised anybody to consult some soothsayer before embarking on any work! Yoga-sutras of Patanjali also are very emphatic that a yogi can foresee everything but then he must detest such sidhis like plague! There are also instances galore that the personal fate of " nakshatra-soochis " ---end of their journey on this planet---has not been a very peaceful one! Their descendants also ultimately suffer---maybe because the " sins of father often visit his children " and may be because Mother Nature is very ruthless with anyone who tries to poke his/her dirty nose in her " other-worldly " affairs! I am sure you won't ask me to " quote examples " but you will just cast your glance around to see what I mean! This is clear from the fact that there were omniscient Rishis in the past but even they did not divulge before hand as to what was going to happen to whom and when! Common sense also tells us that if the Mother Nature wanted to reveal to everybody as to what was going to befall him/her, there would have be no need to go to such absurd lengths to hide from him/her the activities of his earlier janmas!! Let me cite just a couple of instances: When Dasharatha wanted to anoint Bhagwan Rama as the Prince Regent, the first thing he did was to consult his Kulaguru, Bhagwan Vasishtha, about his desire/plans and also for a proper muhurta. It is said in the Valmiki Ramayana that just the next day was decided for that " coronation " because of the nakshtra being proper---perhaps it was Tishya--I am not sure!. Obviously, Vasishtha Rishi did not caution Dasharatha that he was going to commit a " suicidal act " by naming Rama as Prince Regent at that stage! On the other hand, he just let the things take their normal turn! That means that even if someone knows as to what is going to happen and when, he/she must just keep quiet and not interfere in such matters! Then in the Mbh. a lot of " omens " like " vishvaghasra-paksha " etc. have been discussed, but we do not find either the Pandvas or the Kauravas having consulted some soothsayer about the outcome of the war! On the other hand, in the battlefield itself, when Arjuna says, " naitadvidmah kataran-no gareeyo, yadva jayema yadi va no jayeyuh.. " i.e. " ....We do not know whether we (Pandvas) will win the Kauravas or it will be the other way round " , it is clear from the same that nobody had consulted any jyotishis, especially since none was around then as this type of a malady had never existed at that stage in India. And as if to remove any doubts about consulting some soothsayer, Bhagwan Krishna did not advise Arjuna, " O Kuntiputra, you just go to Parshara Rishi. Request him to check from his Brihat Parashari as to what Dasha-Bhukti and Gochara and Ashtakavarga etc. you are running and also as to what 'remedial measures' you should do to win the war " . That is at least what the charlatan Varahamihira and his " shishyas " viz. today's " Vedic astrologers " would have done! Bhagwan Krishna just replied, " Hato va prapsyasi swargam, jitva va bokshyase maheem " ---i.e. " If you get killed, you will go to the heavens and if you win the war, you will be the lord of the entire globe " . Similarly, in spite of being " shodasha kala sampoorna avatar " i.e. Omniscient, Omnipotent and Omnipresent, Lord Krishna did not tell Arjuna either as to who would win the war! Krishna just advised Arjuna " klaibyam ma sma gamah partha naitat tvayui upapadyate, kshyudram hridaya darbalyam tyaktvotishtha parantapai " ---i.e. " don't be such a nincompoop! just cast aside your mental sloth and be ready for the battlefield " That exactly is the summum-bonum of all our shastras " kurvaneva eha karmani jijeevishet shatam samaha... " . i.e. " You must aspire to live a hundred years but continue to do your karma---instead of running after jyotishis! " -Mandukya Upanishad. As against this uncertainty of Arjuna about the outcome of the battle, the same Mbh. tell us about the certainty of Karna, the half/step brother of Arjuna, when he says to Krishna, " I know fully well that Pandvas will win the war " . It was not that Karna had consulted some soothsayer for that purpose but just see Karna's logic when he says in the same breath " since you the Master of the Universes is his charioteer (that is why Pandavas will win the war)! But even then, I will do my dharma to fight on behalf of Duryodhana though I know I will get killed in the battlefield " . In the same Mbh, Bhishma is very sure and ruthless about the treatment to be meted out to nakshatra-soochis " Just treat such Brahmins as chandalas " ! And that is that! < However lying and cheating have been condemned in the Mahabharata, which advocates " Lokasangraha " , ie. doing good to people.> Do you think there can be any worse " cheating and lying " than propagating " Vedic astrology " when there are no Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis or the most dreaded planets viz. Mangal and Shani etc. either in the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha? What type of " lokasangraha " is it what " good is it doing to them " . Even logically, why can't we just ponder on the fact that it was and is IMPOSSIBLE for any predictions to have been correct since all the works right from the Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha through Ganesha Davijnyas Grahalaghava had wrong fundamental arguments whereas there is a worse mess today with the cacophony of zillions of Ayanamshas---Lahiri, Ramana, Fagan, Zero, Chandra Hari, Chopra, Yukteshwar and what not---besides Vismshotari, Ashtotari, Yogini, Kalachakra, Manduka etc. etc. thirty- six types of Dasha-bhuktis as per the " bible " of " Vedic astrologers " viz. the Brihat Parashari! And don't you think all such jargon about our ancestors having made correct predictions on the basis of incorrect astronomical data or the claims of jyotishis that they are going by the words of Parahsara or Brighu or Jaimini etc. is " lying and cheating " ? Let us also check the " past records " . We are supposed to be practicing " Vedic astrology " over the last at least seven thousand years ---from the time of the Rig-Veda! However, there is nothing on record to show that anybody whether Varahamihira or his son Prithuyashas or any other jyotishi over the last several thousand years had ever made any prediction on the basis of " Vedic astrology " as to which disaster would take place where and when! There was a hearsay in Kashmir that King Nala had lost his empire and fallen on penury to such an extent that he had to tear the half of the sari of his consort Damayanti to cover his naked body----all just because king Nala was having Saturn's Sade sati then! When I checked the entire Mbh. from cover to cover with a tooth comb, I could not find any Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis there, so there was no question of any " Sade-sati " . All I could find there was that Nala had lost his empire just because he was a bad gambler---exactly like Pandavas had lost not only their empire but even their consort Draupadi because of gambling! Don't you think floating such hearsays by jyoishis is " lying and cheating " ? And what good is it " doing to people " ? Then in the recent past, there have been instances galore where all the jyotishis were caught napping, if not on the wrong foot e.g. whether it was Chandra-Shekhar or P V Narasimha Rao or Deve Gowda or I K Gujral etc. nobody, I repeat nobody, had ever predicted anything about their being the Heads of the largest democracy of the world! Same is the case about the present PM! Nobody had predicted that " Singh will be the king " . If the fate/future of such important personalities as are to be the Heads of the largest democracy of the world cannot be judged before-hand, it is a moot point that any ordinary Tom, Dick or Harry will have a better " luck " at the hands of jyotishis! Why don't these jyotishis predict today as to when the next flood or Tsunami or disaster is going to take place and in which part of which state of which country and come to the rescue of the governments? They can win a Nobel Prize if they really have such acumen! Why are they always vague like " there will be disasters and storms and a leader may die and. " All just ambiguous statements! Great cry and little wool! Virtual " lying and cheating " . Leave alone mundane affairs, no jyiotishi has ever predicted anybody's death---even his/her own death before hand! There also they have always been caught on the wrong foot! A couple of years back there was a great tamasha when a leading " Vedic astrologer " had predicted that Mr. ..of Betul (MP) would pass away at exact 4-30 pm on that date and all the TV channels had gone to the town with all that tamasha! And that Jyotishi of Betul is still going strong and so is that " great astrologer " who made a laughing stock of himself! People surely have extremely poor memories in such cases, since that " Great jyotishi " is still attached as advisor for " Vedic astrology " with all the pomp and paraphernalia to a " Bhavan " ! If all that is not " lying and cheating " what else is it then? What " good " has that tamasha done to " people " and what type of " lokasangraha " was that? Then what is most ironic is that all the eighteen Puranas like Srimad Bhagavata, Shiva Maha-purana, Vishnudharmotara-purana, Devi Bhagavata, Linga Purana etc. etc. proclaim in one voice that Mesha Sankranti is another name of Vernal Equinox when the day and night are equal and that is also the name of (solar) Vaishakha and Vedic Madhava. Similarly, all those Puranas also say that Makara Sankranti is nothing but a synonym of Uttarayana i.e. the Winter Solstice, the shortest day of the year and that very Sankranti is the start of the Vedic month Tapah/Magha and so on! You could thus say that the puranas want us to follow a so called Sayana Rashichakra---though let me caution you that Rashis are neither sayana nor nirayana, since there are no rashis astronomically---they are just non-existent and sheer imaginations of Jyotishis---Western and Eastern! Why are the " Vedic jyotishis " then going by a so called Lahiri Rashichakra or Ramana Rashichakra etc. etc. not only for their predictive gimmicks but even fasts, fairs and muhurtas? Don't you think that is " lying and cheating " ? I can understand your curiosity about my such vehemence about " Vedic astrology " and even " Vedic astrologers " but I am sure you know it already that the net outcome of all our fatal infatuation with fatalism on the shoulders of " Vedic astrology " has been that we have been celebrating all our muhurtas and festivals on wrong days, thanks to the Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha and Varahamihira the charlatan! I have been crying literally from housetops about the same and by now it is a certainty that the only motive for propagating " Vedic astrology " is that the Hindu community must never be able to celebrate its muhurts and festivals on proper days! And because I am pointing out all these anachronisms, I am being dubbed as a " Muslim who got converted to Kashmiri Pundit " with a hidden agenda! There is no " hidden agenda " on my part. It is an open one---to streamline the real Hindu calendar! As such, will these " Vedic jyotishis " please have some God's fear in their hearts and just do some introspection since after all, in spite of claiming to be omniscient, they certainly do not know that they may just pass on to the other world next moment and there they will definitely have to answer a lot of questions! Or are they---the " Vedic astrologers " ----acting up to some " agenda " on behalf of some overseas " Vamadevas " for whom our continuing to celebrate our festivals and muhurtas on wrong days is the only way out to keep us tethered to " adharma " and thereby lead us to our own downfall---since those " Vamadevas " know---whether we know it or not!---that " dharmo rakshyati rakshitah, dharmo hanti hatah " and when the entire Hindu community celebrates all its festivals and muhurtas on wrong days, they are certainly killing their own dharma and thus leading themselves to their own downfall just to please some overseas " Vamadevas " , courtesy " Vedic astrologers " ! The Hindu community must certainly try to find answers to all these very inconvenient questions! With regards, A K Kaul IndiaArchaeology , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote: > > DearAvtarji, > > QUOTE > > A running translation of the same could be > > " Yavanas are mlechhas. This shastra, i.e. predictive astrology, is > well established in them. As such, even they (in spite of being > mlechhas) are 'worshipped' like Rishis. It goes without saying that > Brahmins will be treated with a much better respect, if they learn > jyotisha (phalita) " > > UNQUOTE > > > > Please recheck the Sanskrit verse. I read the verse quite sometime ago and the correct meaning of that verse is as follows: > > Even the mlechha Yavanas, who learnt astrology are being respected, what then will be the respect that the Brahmins (who know astrology) will get. > > Secondly you must be aware that Yajnvalkya Smriti says that a King must consult astrologer. Of course Manu Smriti did not allow astrology to be practised by the Vanaprasthis while begging for alms. This is because if they earn their livelihood through astrology then they will not succeed in casting off their ego, which is the main purpose of living on alms. From this it is clear that barring the Vanaprasthis there was no restriction on anybody else for practising astrology. However lying and cheating have been condemned in the Mahabharata, which advocates " Lokasangraha " , ie. doing good to people. > > Regards, > > Sunil K. Bhattacharjya > > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> > IndiaArchaeology > Wednesday, August 27, 2008 6:58:48 AM > [ind-Arch] Re: Connection of Greeks with India > > > Dear Subrahmanyaji, > There are quite a few references in the Puranas to Yavanas. Yavans > have been treated as " papas " i.e. a " sinful commuity " in the > following shloka of the Bahgavata (or perhaps Mahabharata- --I am > right now not sure since I am just drawing from my memory!): > " aabheera kankah yavanah khasadayah > ye anye cha papap yad upashryaya shryah, shudyanti tasmay prabha > vishnave namah " > a simple translation of the same could be > > " My pranams to such a Vishnu who can purify 'papayonis' like > abheeras, kankas, yavanas and khasas--after they take refuge in Him " . > > However the word yavanas is taken as an exclusive reference to the > Greeks after the " famous " words of Varahamihira in his Brihat Samhita > " yavnah hi mlechhah, teshu samyak shastram idam sthitam > rishi vat te api pujyante, kim punarveda-vid dvijah " > > A running translation of the same could be > > " Yavanas are mlechhas. This shastra, i.e. predictive astrology, is > well established in them. As such, even they (in spite of being > mlechhas) are 'worshipped' like Rishis. It goes without saying that > Brahmins will be treated with a much better respect, if they learn > jyotisha (phalita) " > > Obviously, Varahamihira was not referrring to any other community by > the word " Yavanas " except for Greeks since they were the ones who had > introduced the Surya Sidhanta as well as Sphujidwaja' s Yvana- jatakam! > The latter has very ably and skilfully been edited and translated by > Dr. Pingree, and published by Harvard University Press in 1970, > whatever some " phalit jyotishis " may say! > > Vrahamihira has said at several places in his Brihat Jatakam " Yavnah > Oochuh " i.e. " yavnas have said thus " . He has also referred to > several Greek names in his works. > > (Lest some " brahmins " start " selling their astrologcial ware---as if > they are not already doing so!---since Varahamihira has advised them > to do so, a word of caution is necessary: > As against such a praise for phalita jytoisha by Vrahamihira, who > wants a " mlechha " also to be treated as a " Rishi " if he > knows " phalita jyotisha " , Bhishma Pitamaha has summarily dismissed > such brahmins as " Chandaralas " who are nakshatra-soochis! ) > > Then again, Varahamihira, instead of being a great astronomer, was > the worst charlatan of the last one-and-a-half millennium according > to me! In his Brihat Samhita he has said, " spashtataro savitrah " > i.e. " the Surya Sidhanta (by Maya, again a Yavana and therefore a > mlechha!) is the most accurate work out of all the five sidhantas of > the Panchasihdantika " . Obviously, he must have been preparing his > ephemeris/panchagna s and even the horoscopes of his clients from the > same " most accurate work " from which he must have been > making " correct predictions " as well! > > It is an " open secrete " by now that the Surya Sidhanta is one of the > most monstrous astronomical works that could ever have been > produced! Its fundamental arguments are just sheer imagination > without any actual observations! It cries from house tops that Makar > Sankranti is a synonym of Uttarayana and Dakshinayana that of Karka > Sankranti and also Mesha Sankranti is another name of Vernal Equinox > whereas Autumn Eqinox is nothing but Tula Sankranti! That > naturally means that it is talking of the same rashichakra of Greek > constellations that was prevailing in Grecho-Chaldean astrology at > the time of Alexander " the Great " ! But in the same breath, the same > Surya Sidhanta clubs Ashvini nakshatra with the vernal Equinox right > from the dawn of the creation till its doomsday! > > Then again, the duration of the year should naturally have been > tropical but in its fundamental arguments, the duration of the year > is neither tropical nor sidereal but just eight palas---3.5 seconds > approximately- --more than even the sidereal year! > What is most ironic is that there are no secular variations at all-- - > again right from the dawn of creation till the doomsday! That means > it just gives a uniform average daily motion of not only the sun and > the moon but all the planets as well, from Mercury to Shani and also > Rahu---throughout the " kalpa " --- as many as 4,320,000,000 years! > > No wonder our ancestors (including Varahamihira! ) were > making " correct (sic!) " predictions from the horoscopes prepared from > panchangas based on the Surya Sidhanta by Maya the mlechha because > till about a century back, i.e. till the advent of modern astronomy > into India, such sidhanas or karnagranthas were " the most accurate > astronomical works " of Hindu astrologers who call themselves " Vedic > jyotishis " now a days! > However, the net outcome of this " treating mlechhas as rishis " has > been that the entire Hindu community is celebrating all its festivals > and muhurtas on worng days, thanks to " Vedic asrologers " and > their " Vedic astrology " ! > With regards, > Avtar Krishen Kaul > > -- In IndiaArchaeology, " subrahmanyas2000 " > <subrahmanyas@ ...> wrote: > > > > > > Carlos, > > You ask an extremely pertinent question. > > AK Narain in his book Indo-Greeks deals briefly with this > > issue. > > > > As you know, Alexander's journey to India is considered > > an 'anchor' for Indian chronology. But there are big > > time problems with it. (not just the Sandracottus issue) > > > > The question is about where exactly into India > > did Alexander reach and where he turned back. > > This distance/time difference could affect by a few > > months as to where exactly Alexander stopped and have > > a huge influence on issue of chronology in India. > > There is a big question as to where exactly Alexander > > turned back - was it in the punjab , or was it much further > > west in Afghanistan. There was more than one Puru - > > there was one eastern Pururvas, and a western Pururvas > > (all that it means is that they were of Puru clan). > > Also, there is the issue of whether rivers were in spate > > because of rains or whether because of spring melting of > > the snow. > > > > While the relative chronology of India is allright, the absolute > > chronology of India needs some strong reevaluation. > > This again goes back to dating the Rigveda, Buddha etc etc... > > > > > > regards, > > Subrahmanya > > > > IndiaArchaeology, " Carlos Aramayo " > > <cararam50@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Other interesting thing for me is why Greeks of Alexander times > > > could be seen as Ionians/Yona if Alexander troops may have been > > > Macedonians in majority. > > > > > > > > > Best regards, > > > > > > Carlos > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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