Guest guest Posted July 16, 2008 Report Share Posted July 16, 2008 Hi Sanat No wonder why there is one to discuss in the forum. Your moto think differently,logically and scientifically calls off your entire life on it. You can go on thinking; but no avail. Out of your 10 questions let me try the last one,timing of eclipse. Let them takeup any methodology,are you getting the timing of eclipse appropriately or not. Why dont you eat the pudding instead of counting the holes in it. Here you may argue you are not getting it to micro second level. Who the hell cared to get it to micro level and what is the use of it. Actually you need ppl to read your book. Could you pl send one free,I can assure you to go thro it thoroughly and give strong comments on it. Pl look after your business and kindly do not waste the time of ppl . Regards tkp On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain wrote: Resp. members,We are not receiving any msg with some new point of discussion on astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am enclosing my old blog placed in the file section so that members may read it and comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not reacting with a fear to loose their reputation in other forums though they are silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can interact on my email sanatkumar_jain So far members have observed that supporters of astrology are either interested in by passing the main point or they have only faith on astrology without any scientific or logical support to any concept. Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others to follow the path of ignorance. I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am always interested in looking deep.ThanksSanatASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTHWill you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an astrologer in the consumer forum.At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles were the key factors for deciding the fate. Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system.What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level of information of sages about the Universe, who developed astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ?It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each other) ?Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over nector after sea-churning………..3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh house) ?Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries sign) ?Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the day is more in comparison to night……5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a small planet) has 20 years ?Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of Universe on the basis of lord and exalted…….6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ?Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week (Sunday, Monday etc.) ?Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)?On the basis of recurrence of eclipse…..9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. apart?On the basis of recurrence of eclipse………..10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ?Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month……….Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave answers to these questions then he will realize that entire astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of Universe.Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed.After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology " Jyotish - Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to formulate these principles. This book was also published in English with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836 http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat%20kumar% 20jain & TAG= & CID=http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx?ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned in the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03-1988 ( Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 deg. away).To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3-10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them.I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears to be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree with the above observation after going through my original revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre-written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre-written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre-defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of planets? Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and website is jref and http://www.randi.org Because modern technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of Universe, solar system. It would be better to know the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society).Sanat Kumar JainThink differently, Think logically and Think scientifically -- TKP Ghopal32.2/40 Rajaratnam St.,Riverside Road, I Agraharam,SALEM-636 00193666 23444 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 Resp. Kaul Sahib Ji, Namaskar, Thanks for your supporting msg. As I do not want to be a moderator imposing some rules on the views expressed by any member of the forum, hence our forum is free from any censorship. Yes, I am also of the view that members, who are quite mature, qualified may observe some discipline and may not use filthy language for any member. As we are not here to hit others but to share our views on predictive astrology and science (if any) behind formulation of astrological principles. Thus parameter of discussion of the forum is very limited. Unfortunately, Delhi is one of the important hub through media, publishers, astrologers, even on internet etc. for promoting astrology and befooling innocent public without any scientific or logical or rational support. But what can be done except lit a lamp in dark night so that if someone wants the help then he is welcome otherwise he is also free for wandering in the dark forest of ignorance, blindfaith. So far not a single member is able to support his stand except faith. Not a single astrologer has come forward with his explanation on various points raised in my earlier blog. But it is not their fault. Actually they are more interested in money making cheating business instead of some academic discussion. Thus Sh Narlikar may say what ever he want but neither astrologers are going to analyze astrology nor they will discuss, nor they will left cheating business, nor innocent public will realize scientific fact, nor public will come out from blind faith nor ……… I know that it is very difficult for a member to change his views, merely after reading some msgs. against astrology. But we will definitely corner him after analyzing his all sort of arguments and thereafter, he will think himself as to whether astrology is a science, vedic, more then science or it is myth, blind faith, cheating business by astrologers in the name of sage or ved and so on. Summery of some of the pointed discussion has been uploaded in SOA______ files in file section. These files are being updated (as and when I have some spare time). One of your file has already been uploaded in the file section, well before your joining the forum (of course without your permission but I thought I must have this much right). I will also create a separate file with the summery of your msg. So that future members may find all valuable comments at a place and your views may not be dumped in the heap of msgs. I do hope members will like to comment, raise some questions regarding predictive astrology from your msgs. I hope you will always support correct analysis with your immense knowledge and invite your friends and astrologers who are interested in predictive astrology. Thanks once again. Yours truly, Sanat Gwalior 0751-2626868 Dear Jain Sahib, Many thanks for your hearty welcome to me as a group member. I joined this forum because the posts are not moderated and anybody can express his/her views without any censorship. It is a healthy trend in any discussion so long as some member does not start either hitting below the belt or using highly offensive/obnoxious and unparliamentary language in an academic discussion. In that case, the only way out is to quietly remove that member after giving him/her a couple of warnings! That is what I have to do sometimes in HinduCalendar forum!............. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 19, 2008 Report Share Posted July 19, 2008 Dear Kaul Sahib, Namaskar. Yes, I have read your several posts on the Panchang calculations and the detailed elaboration of your views on what you term as the mistake committed in the calculations. I donot have knoweldge on this subject and therefore cannot comment. I have however interest in Vedic Astrology and have been studying it for the last eight years. I developed interest for it while I was in US after meeting some westerners who are quite knoweldgeble in it. I felt that we Indians donot take our old scriptures seriously while westerners not only study these but promote these and try to bring them on the so called scientific field. Thus Yoga has become a household word here in US and a lot has been done for Vedic Astrology by developing the software for chart making, setting up of two Associations both in Britain and US etc., notwithstanding the spread of various quacks who make lot of money in this field. My own opinion is that there is no need to find any proof for Vedic Astrology as a predictive tool even though I find enough to brand it as a science.( It is called Vedic to differentiate it from Western Astrology, Chinese Astrology etc and therefore there is nothing wrong in calling it so) Do we need a proof for what Lord Krishna says in Bhagwat Gita. Do we need to prove that Spiritual path is the only way to get ultimate bliss. Faith is essential in these things because it comes from the same class of " people " who gave us the supreme knowledge enshrined in vedas, upanishads etc.Faith on past life and Karmic theory too is essential pre requisite for this. Well proving it to be a science looks to me as childish since the present scientific parameters seem to be primitive to measure its " scientific " character. For example Parashara says that for a person to be good astrologist, he needs to be a Sanskari, a man imbued with faith on Dharma living a pure and austere life and having superior drishti ( some sort of sixth sense, some jyotishis of Kashmir had). This is one of the several attributes that a perfect astrologist needs to have while making a successful prediction. Where will this attribute come in the long list of variables that we try to employ for making a cause-effect relationship following the secintific terminology. That is why I say that this sort of scientific form y=f(x) will not work in this field. Besides the mathematical relationships cannot hold good here because no two persons are similar in this world. Human nature being different, one has to find these sophistications in each chart, something that we know very little of. For example we know very little about the use of divisional charts and it is possible we miss a lot of information from this lack of knowledge. Just as Arjuna while tired of hearing Lord Krishna, begs Him of a practical proof of what He says to him and thereafter Lord Krishna bestows Arjuna with a new pair of eyes to have divya drishti and to see his Virat Swarup, similarly we cannot measure the scientific nature of VA by the existing science, the calculations of NASA etc. Several good astrologists make a good analysis and it is not difficult to see good and bad from the chart at least like a haze. If all this is possible with our little knowledge, what would have been possible with men who could remember several hundred pages of text easily like modern day computers.Faculties of men in Kaliyug are limited and we are just fiddling with knowledge through our limited tools.Most importantly, there is self doubt. It is fashionable among Hindus to criticise their own faith since the word Hindu and things associated with it are considered primitive and unscientific. Regards, P.N.Razdan , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved wrote: > > Dear P. N. Razdan Sahib, > Namaskar Mahara! > > Regarding the discussion whether astrology is a science or myth, I > am personally of the opinion that astrology is a way of making a > fool of a common man! How I arrived at such a conclusion, let me > narrate in brief! > As you are aware, I am also from Srinagar, Kashmir. I was myself > immersed deep in all the " attributes " of astrology right > from " Badsharwar " (sade-sati) to " Tekini-milanavuni " (Patri Milapak) > etc. etc. My maternal grandfather, late Shri Nath Ji Shastri > (Pajnoo) of Chundapura, Srinagar, Kashmir was a very reputed > astrologer, though he never charged any thing from anybody! Probably > you might have heard his name there! > > I inherited a lot of Sanskrit literature---including books on > astrology----from him, which, unfortunately, got destroyed in 1990 > because of the political disturbances there. > > You must also be aware that till about 1985 there was only one > Janri/Panchang there in Srinagar and that was Vijay-eshwar > Jantri/panchang which was being published for the last about two > centuries. My grandpa was an avid reader of the same in Sharda > script. > I was under the impression that that was a divine work as otherwise > how could a human being calculate the planetary positions! I would > take every word of the same as gospel truth and read my Rashiphal > and " amdani-kharch ka naksha " etc. etc. at least fifteen to twenty > times. From there I " graduated " to Brihat Parashari, Manasagari, > Brihat Jatakam, Sanket Nidhi, Kheta-Kautukam etc. etc. In fact > there is perhaps not even a signle book on predictive gimmicks > whether in Sanskrit or Urdu or Hindi or English that I have not gone > through and tested and tried in day to day life! > > When quite a few predictions did not come true in spite of the same > having been made as per impeccable jyotisha-shastras, I started > delving deep into astronomy, both sidhantic and astrophysics! > > Regarding " mundane affairs " i.e. the fate of our " Moj kasheer " > (Mother Kashmir) we had nobody else to fall back upon except what > our Vijayeshwar-wala told us! He was our friend, philospher and > guide! And unfortunately for the KP community, he let us down badly > becuase during the years 1989 and 1990, when insurgency was at its > hieght in Kashmir, he had repeated/assured in his Jantri that peace > would reign in the valley! AND you are fully aware as to what type > of peace it was---we became refugees in our own motherland and quite > a few KPs were butchered and quite a few Kashmiri ladies raped and > enslaved for lives! > And that was the peace that Vijayeshwarwala had predicted for " Moj > Kahseer " ! > > (That reminds me of the fate of our nighbour, the only Hindu kingdom > of yesteryears, where the erstwhile king--an Incarnation of Visnhu!-- > was murdered by his own son the crown prince since the jyotishis > there did not allow the King to marry the crown prince to his sweet > heart as their " patri-melapak was not having the requisite number of > gunas " !) > > To add insult to injury, the same Vijayeswhar-wala admitted in his > 1994 or 1995 jantri that till then he was making calculations > from " Makaranda " but now he would start doing so from " drik- > ganita " ! He had the cheek to say further that till then he was > doing the calcuatons from " Makaranda " only because his competitors > i.e. Brahmana Maha-mandal was doing so! > > Coming to calculations part, Vedic Hindus have never bothered about > predictive gimmicks, at least not the rashi-based ones! As such, > the very first work of planetary astronomy in India is the Surya > Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha! Ironically, that is the most absurd > astronomical work that anybody could every produce! Still more > inronically, Varahamihira, " the greatest astrologer of the last 1500 > years " has praised that very Surya Sidhanta to the skies in his > Pnahcasidhantika! And Varahamihira is supposed to have made > accurate Predictions! Not only Varahamihira, but his son > Prithuyashas is also said to have done so and there are quite a few > astrological works by both of them! > > Right from the date of the Surya Sidhanta i.e. about 2nd century > BCE, till about a hundred years back, all the panchanga-makers of > India were basing their calculations on either the Surya Sidhanta or > Aryabhati or Arya Sidhanta or later on some other Karna-grantha > which just circumamublated around the Surya Sidhanta! > > In other words, right from the date of the Surya Sidhanta of Pancha- > sidhantika till about a hundred years back, i.e. till the advent of > planetary data from Greenwich and other observatories, we never had > a correct panchanga! The planetary positions in the earlier > panchangas were wrong by as many as twenty degrees very often! If > you somehow reconciled one error by taking refuge in one ayanamsha, > another error would crop up which was more horrendous than the one > that was removed! > > And as is common knowledge, horoscopes whether of a common man or a > Maharaja, are prepared from panchangas available in the market! > > The million dollar question that arises is that if there were no > correct panchangas available till about a hundred years back, how on > earth could any predictions based on the horscopes prepared from the > same be correct! And if someone can make correct predictions from > incorrect data, he is said to be a charlatan! In other wrods, all > the Hindu astrology was " astrology by charlatans, for charlatans and > of charlatans " . > To crown it all, we call that very astrology now " Vedic astrology " . > " Kudos " to such astrologers, especially, since this " Vedic (actualy > anti-Vedic!) astrology " has made us celebrate all our festivals on > wrong days! > Regards, > A K Kaul > > > , " pnrazdan " <pnrazdan@> > wrote: > > > > Dear Sanat, > > I have read most of the posts on the group as also your latest > post > > complaining that members are not reacting to your views. > > In my opinion, the discussion in this group is one-sided. You as > well > > as one or two members are obsessed with " proving " that Vedic > > astrology is a myth by trying to demolish arguments of all > supporters > > without any counter facts.Some members also use language of hatred > > and make it almost a tirade against VA. It looks like the name of > > this group should have been kept as " Myth of Astrology " rather > than > > Science of Astrology. > > I also wanted to elaborate on my views in support of VA but found > no > > use since the forum is not open and not evenly placed. I am sure > many > > others are feeling like that. > > Unless you make the group balanced and improve the quality of > > discussions, I am afraid, it may not attract members contributions. > > Regards, > > P.N.Razdan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Wes Stillwagon " > > <wstillwagon1@> wrote: > > > > > > , " sanat2221 " > > > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Resp. members, > > > > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of discussion > on > > > > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am enclosing my > > old > > > > blog placed in the file section so that members may read it > and > > > > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not reacting > > with > > > a > > > > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though they are > > > > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can interact > on > > > my > > > > email sanatkumar_jain@ > > > > > > > > So far members have observed that supporters of astrology are > > > either > > > > interested in by passing the main point or they have only > faith > > on > > > > astrology without any scientific or logical support to any > > concept. > > > > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others to > follow > > > the > > > > path of ignorance. > > > > > > > > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am always > > > interested > > > > in looking deep. > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > Sanat > > > > > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > > > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied > in > > > depth > > > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like > > this. > > > So > > > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to > > whether > > > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science > due > > to > > > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only > want > > to > > > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us > > > examine > > > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you > > have > > > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are > standing > > > in > > > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can > understand > > > the > > > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but > if > > > you > > > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or > call > > an > > > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in > early > > > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > > > religious > > > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, > > Moon, > > > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only > > > sages > > > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to > > > predict > > > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called > > grabbing > > > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer > donations > > > etc. > > > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is > > still > > > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > > > everybody > > > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this > situation, > > it > > > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the > fate > > of > > > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the > > fate > > > of > > > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate > various > > > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of > > sages > > > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > > > principles > > > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > > > percolated > > > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to > learn > > > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles > > were > > > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western > > > system. > > > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One > group > > > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due > to > > > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to > > fit > > > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle > > within > > > a > > > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith > > etc., > > > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > > > astrological > > > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) > may > > > come > > > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start > > self > > > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on > other > > > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only > > mislead, > > > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can > find > > > that > > > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group > (say > > > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against > astrology. > > > But > > > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the > > > level > > > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure > was > > > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > > > following > > > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in > > subpara). > > > > > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the > stationary > > > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity > and > > > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy > of > > > each > > > > other) ? > > > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons > over > > > > nector after sea-churning……….. > > > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, > > > quarter > > > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on > > seventh > > > > house) ? > > > > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are > exalted > > and > > > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of > Aries > > > > sign) ? > > > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of > > the > > > > day is more in comparison to night…… > > > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and > hub > > > of > > > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas > Venus > > > (a > > > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations > > > between > > > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > > > > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the > > structure > > > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > > > > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion > of > > > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 > > deg. > > > > apart? > > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > > > > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as > to > > > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > > > answers to these questions then he will realize that entire > > > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > > > Universe. > > > > > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by > sage > > > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in > the > > > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in > all > > > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any > > old > > > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is > > > beyond > > > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and > Moon. > > > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles > are > > > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > > > astrology > > > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude > correct > > > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same > combination > > is > > > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically > and > > > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive > > concept > > > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in > view > > of > > > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive > concept > > > of > > > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > > > astrology " Jyotish - > > > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book > contains > > > the > > > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on > the > > > basis > > > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our > sages > > to > > > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in > > English > > > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). The > > book > > > is > > > > being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > > produktID=1759836 > > > > > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% > > 20kumar% > > > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune > nor > > > they > > > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to > presence > > > of > > > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the > > > concept > > > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was > > mentioned > > > in > > > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came > within > > 14 > > > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But > > > nobody > > > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse > when > > > Sun, > > > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree > respectively > > > on > > > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon > and > > > Ketu > > > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- > > 1988 > > > ( > > > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar > > eclipses > > > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more > then > > > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at > 79.04 > > > deg. > > > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at > > > 76.49 > > > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was > > 15.14 > > > > deg. away). > > > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will > > also > > > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred > at > > the > > > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was > > not > > > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of > > > myth). > > > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when > > Moon > > > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. > But > > > As > > > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 > > and > > > 3- > > > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full > > solar > > > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar > > > eclipses > > > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 > > > degree > > > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may > possible. > > > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in > almanac. > > > Thus > > > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees > respectively. > > > All > > > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this > > fundamental > > > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want > > then > > > I > > > > can give many more examples and very simple method of > detecting > > > them. > > > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science > but > > in > > > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy > + > > > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) > > played > > > an > > > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to > > > immense > > > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology > > appears > > > to > > > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also > > agree > > > > with the above observation after going through my original > > > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided > as > > was > > > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try > to > > > do > > > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to > pre- > > > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying > that > > > pre- > > > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, > even > > > then > > > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a > > > cascading > > > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of > every > > > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say > pre- > > > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when > every > > > Tom, > > > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good > > deed > > > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under > change. > > > You > > > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can > > never > > > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot > be > > > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is > also > > > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > > > prewritten) > > > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because > in > > > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be > altered > > > but > > > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction > can > > be > > > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > > > planets? > > > > > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest > assured > > > that > > > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > > > astronomy > > > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > > > correct. > > > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. > > Still > > > if > > > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The > > James > > > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize > to > > > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail > and > > > > website is jref@ and http://www.randi.org Because modern > > > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used > to > > > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested > business > > > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this > sort > > > of > > > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this > > regard > > > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct > information > > of > > > > Universe, solar system. > > > > > > > > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and facts, > data > > > > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to join > > hands > > > > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). > > > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > > > Think differently, Think logically and Think scientifically > > > > > > > Im afraid that your " logic " and " thinking " is a bit off base on > > this > > > topic. Swiss Psychiatrist, Alexander Newton, Copernicus, Albert > > > Einstein, Kepler, Frank Brown, Northwestern University, Makai > > Takata, > > > Toho University, and thousands of qualified and honored > scientists > > > agree that there is indeed a science called astrology. Newton > said > > > the following to Hally (comet) fame when he challenged the > validity > > > of astrology, " Sir I've studied the subject, you have not! " > > > YOu are way off base and your examination of the subject is > > > incomplete, your conclusions are without merit. > > > > > > Wes > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 20, 2008 Report Share Posted July 20, 2008 Dear Razdan Sahib, Namaskar! Many thanks for your detailed reply! Let me try to analyze some of your points vis-a-vis the facts: <I have however interest in Vedic Astrology and have been studying it for the last eight years.> The alpha and omega of " Vedic astrology " are Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis and all the seven planets besides Rahu and Kethu! Ironically, the Rashis---all the twelve of them---are conspicuous by their absence from the Vedas, Upanishadas, Brahmanas etc. etc. And so are the most dreaded planets like Mangal, Shani etc. There is no mention of Rahu but some reference to Swarbhanu whereas Kethu is referred to in the sense of " dhoomaketu " As such, to call any predictive gimmicks as Vedic astrology is to do great injustice to our Vedic Seers! < I felt that we Indians donot take our old scriptures seriously...> Could you kindly quote any scripture that has advised us to run after jyotishis in order to find out as to whether Lalu or Kalu will be the PM or " whether I will recover from my heart attack " ? To the best of my knowlege all our scriptures advise us " uttishthatai jagrata prapya varan nibodhata " . As such, to say that we are not taking our " jyotish scriptures " seriously is a patent lie since there are no scriptures that advise us to prctise predictive gimmicks! <while westerners not only study these but promote these and try to bring them on the so called scientific field.> Westerners are mercenaries! They are not promoting our scriptures but their own christianity! If they are interested in " Vedic astrology " it is only because they are milking a cow that has golden udders! Can you imagine as to how foolish we are when we believe the Western charlatans that they are promoting " Vedic astrology " when none of our scriptures has advised us to believe in any predictive gimmicks, at least the Rashi based ones! <My own opinion is that there is no need to find any proof for Vedic Astrology as a predictive tool> Does such an opinion have any value either logically or scientifically? Such opinions can be called " wishful thinking " or at best an illusion/hallucination of the highest order! <.( It is called Vedic to differentiate it from Western Astrology, Chinese Astrology etc and therefore there is nothing wrong in calling it so) > Why call it Vedic? Why not call it " Indian " or " Hindu " or " nirayana " and so on? As aleady explained, to call any predictive gimmicks as " Vedic " is to exhibit our ignorance of our Vedic knowledge to the whole world from housetops! It is politicians who tell such lies like attributing certain qualties to some " item " which that " item " does not possess! Real Vedic scholas never do so! <Do we need a proof for what Lord Krishna says in Bhagwat Gita.> No, we do not need any proofs for the same! But then the same Lord Krishna has never advised us to consult some soothsayer! Why are you forgetting the world famous sholka of the same Gita " karmanyeva adhikaraste ma phaleshu kadachana ma karma phala hetur bhoo ma te sango astu akarmani " Then again, when Arjuna tells Lord Krishna, as per the same Gita that you are quoting as an authority, " I do not know who will win the war " Lord Krishna did not advise Arjuna to consult some Jyotishsi to find out an answer to that question! On the other hand, He said to Arjuna in quite unambguous words, " If you get killed you will go to the heavens and if you win the war yo will be the master of the whole globe " Why are we, who call ourselves Krishna Bhaktas and Vedic Hindus, going against the dictum of the same Lord Krishna but following the dictum of some overseas Vamadeva and local " Parashara " etc. who are makinng a fool of us? <For example Parashara says that for a person to be good astrologist, he needs to be a Sanskari, a man imbued with faith on Dharma living a pure and austere life and having superior drishti ( some sort of sixth sense, some jyotishis of Kashmir had).> By Parashara, you mean Brihat Parashariwala Paashara! It appears you have not read any of my posts, where in it has been proved consclusively that the Parasharis galore that are floating around are not by Parashara the father of Krishna Dvaipayana Veda-Vyasa but some fake Parashara, maybe even several fake " Parasharas " . This has been demonstrated by Pt. S. B. Dikshit in his " Bharatiya Jyotish " and by Sitaram Jha in his original " Parasharai " published originally about seventy years back by Master Khelari Lal and Sons, Varanasi, which was later translated by R. Santhanam into English! However, Santhanam/publishers completely omitted the orignal words of Sitaram Jha that he had collected the (so called) Parashari from different sources and thus there was no guarantee that the work was really by Maharshi Parashara! All these Parasharis are like " Ravana Samhita " and " Brighu Samhita " --- master concoctios and nothing else! <For example we know very little about the use of divisional charts and it is possible we miss a lot of information from this lack of knowledge.> All these divisional charts and at least thirty-six types of Dasha Bhuktis and at least half a dozen ayanamshas are irrefutable proofs that " Vedic astrology " is nothing but a fraud that is being made more and more confusing with the passage of everyday so that in such a labyrinth, nobody tires to question the veracity of their statements! <what would have been possible with men who could remember several hundred pages of text easily like modern day computers.> Vedanga Jyotisha, the only indigenous astronomical work of about 1400 BCE comprises hardly a hundred shlokas! And that work gives just the methodology of calculating tithi, nakshatra and the months Madhu, Madhava etc. Besides, as already explained hundeds of times, prior to the advent of planetary data from overseas observatories like that of Greenwich and US Naval Observatory etc., India never had any methodology of calculating correct planetary longitudes! In other words, right from the Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha of second century BCE till about 1900 AD, India could never calculate horoscopes properly, since the planetary longitudes derived from the Surya Sidhanta or Aryabhati or Sidhanhta Shiromani or Grahalghava or Makaranda etc. etc. were incorrect by several degrees whatever the ayanamsha used! As such, to expect that our forefathers/ancestors made correct predcitions is to live in a fool's paradise! They never had the wherewithall to do so whether by way of astronomy or by way of astrological literature since all the astrologcial jargon is a direct import from Babylon/Greece! <It is fashionable among Hindus to criticise their own faith since the word Hindu and things associated with it are considered primitive and unscientific> I had thrown a challenge to all the astrologers, whether Vedic or anti-Vedic or non-Vedic to quote even a single sholka from any Purana or Smriti or Itihasa or any other shastra---leave alone the Vedas--- that has asked us to cosnult some soothsayer before embarking on any plan! I repeat that challenge! Since there are no such references, we are becoming a pawn in the hands of overseas and even local mercenaries who are brainwashing us that we must believe that predictive gimmicks are as per the Hindu shastras! NO they are not! They are imports from Greece and the earlier we realize that truth the better for the entire Hindu community, since it is only such a blind faith in " Veic astrology " that is compelling us to celebrate all our festivals and muhurtas on wrong days, and thus making us decimate our own Vedic culture by our own foolishness of our faith in " Vedic astrology " ! The sooner we come out of such a stupor the better! With regards, A K Kaul , " pnrazdan " <pnrazdan wrote: > > Dear Kaul Sahib, > Namaskar. Yes, I have read your several posts on the Panchang > calculations and the detailed elaboration of your views on what you > term as the mistake committed in the calculations. I donot have > knoweldge on this subject and therefore cannot comment. > I have however interest in Vedic Astrology and have been studying it > for the last eight years. I developed interest for it while I was in > US after meeting some westerners who are quite knoweldgeble in it. I > felt that we Indians donot take our old scriptures seriously while > westerners not only study these but promote these and try to bring > them on the so called scientific field. Thus Yoga has become a > household word here in US and a lot has been done for Vedic Astrology > by developing the software for chart making, setting up of two > Associations both in Britain and US etc., notwithstanding the spread > of various quacks who make lot of money in this field. > > My own opinion is that there is no need to find any proof for Vedic > Astrology as a predictive tool even though I find enough to brand it > as a science.( It is called Vedic to differentiate it from Western > Astrology, Chinese Astrology etc and therefore there is nothing wrong > in calling it so) Do we need a proof for what Lord Krishna says in > Bhagwat Gita. Do we need to prove that Spiritual path is the only way > to get ultimate bliss. Faith is essential in these things because it > comes from the same class of " people " who gave us the supreme > knowledge enshrined in vedas, upanishads etc.Faith on past life and > Karmic theory too is essential pre requisite for this. > Well proving it to be a science looks to me as childish since the > present scientific parameters seem to be primitive to measure its > " scientific " character. For example Parashara says that for a person > to be good astrologist, he needs to be a Sanskari, a man imbued with > faith on Dharma living a pure and austere life and having superior > drishti ( some sort of sixth sense, some jyotishis of Kashmir had). > This is one of the several attributes that a perfect astrologist needs > to have while making a successful prediction. Where will this > attribute come in the long list of variables that we try to employ for > making a cause-effect relationship following the secintific > terminology. That is why I say that this sort of scientific form > y=f(x) will not work in this field. Besides the mathematical > relationships cannot hold good here because no two persons are similar > in this world. Human nature being different, one has to find these > sophistications in each chart, something that we know very little of. > For example we know very little about the use of divisional charts and > it is possible we miss a lot of information from this lack of knowledge. > Just as Arjuna while tired of hearing Lord Krishna, begs Him of a > practical proof of what He says to him and thereafter Lord Krishna > bestows Arjuna with a new pair of eyes to have divya drishti and to > see his Virat Swarup, similarly we cannot measure the scientific > nature of VA by the existing science, the calculations of NASA etc. > Several good astrologists make a good analysis and it is not > difficult to see good and bad from the chart at least like a haze. If > all this is possible with our little knowledge, what would have been > possible with men who could remember several hundred pages of text > easily like modern day computers.Faculties of men in Kaliyug are > limited and we are just fiddling with knowledge through our limited > tools.Most importantly, there is self doubt. It is fashionable among > Hindus to criticise their own faith since the word Hindu and things > associated with it are considered primitive and unscientific. > Regards, > P.N.Razdan > > > > , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > Dear P. N. Razdan Sahib, > > Namaskar Mahara! > > > > Regarding the discussion whether astrology is a science or myth, I > > am personally of the opinion that astrology is a way of making a > > fool of a common man! How I arrived at such a conclusion, let me > > narrate in brief! > > As you are aware, I am also from Srinagar, Kashmir. I was myself > > immersed deep in all the " attributes " of astrology right > > from " Badsharwar " (sade-sati) to " Tekini-milanavuni " (Patri Milapak) > > etc. etc. My maternal grandfather, late Shri Nath Ji Shastri > > (Pajnoo) of Chundapura, Srinagar, Kashmir was a very reputed > > astrologer, though he never charged any thing from anybody! Probably > > you might have heard his name there! > > > > I inherited a lot of Sanskrit literature---including books on > > astrology----from him, which, unfortunately, got destroyed in 1990 > > because of the political disturbances there. > > > > You must also be aware that till about 1985 there was only one > > Janri/Panchang there in Srinagar and that was Vijay-eshwar > > Jantri/panchang which was being published for the last about two > > centuries. My grandpa was an avid reader of the same in Sharda > > script. > > I was under the impression that that was a divine work as otherwise > > how could a human being calculate the planetary positions! I would > > take every word of the same as gospel truth and read my Rashiphal > > and " amdani-kharch ka naksha " etc. etc. at least fifteen to twenty > > times. From there I " graduated " to Brihat Parashari, Manasagari, > > Brihat Jatakam, Sanket Nidhi, Kheta-Kautukam etc. etc. In fact > > there is perhaps not even a signle book on predictive gimmicks > > whether in Sanskrit or Urdu or Hindi or English that I have not gone > > through and tested and tried in day to day life! > > > > When quite a few predictions did not come true in spite of the same > > having been made as per impeccable jyotisha-shastras, I started > > delving deep into astronomy, both sidhantic and astrophysics! > > > > Regarding " mundane affairs " i.e. the fate of our " Moj kasheer " > > (Mother Kashmir) we had nobody else to fall back upon except what > > our Vijayeshwar-wala told us! He was our friend, philospher and > > guide! And unfortunately for the KP community, he let us down badly > > becuase during the years 1989 and 1990, when insurgency was at its > > hieght in Kashmir, he had repeated/assured in his Jantri that peace > > would reign in the valley! AND you are fully aware as to what type > > of peace it was---we became refugees in our own motherland and quite > > a few KPs were butchered and quite a few Kashmiri ladies raped and > > enslaved for lives! > > And that was the peace that Vijayeshwarwala had predicted for " Moj > > Kahseer " ! > > > > (That reminds me of the fate of our nighbour, the only Hindu kingdom > > of yesteryears, where the erstwhile king--an Incarnation of Visnhu!-- > > was murdered by his own son the crown prince since the jyotishis > > there did not allow the King to marry the crown prince to his sweet > > heart as their " patri-melapak was not having the requisite number of > > gunas " !) > > > > To add insult to injury, the same Vijayeswhar-wala admitted in his > > 1994 or 1995 jantri that till then he was making calculations > > from " Makaranda " but now he would start doing so from " drik- > > ganita " ! He had the cheek to say further that till then he was > > doing the calcuatons from " Makaranda " only because his competitors > > i.e. Brahmana Maha-mandal was doing so! > > > > Coming to calculations part, Vedic Hindus have never bothered about > > predictive gimmicks, at least not the rashi-based ones! As such, > > the very first work of planetary astronomy in India is the Surya > > Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha! Ironically, that is the most absurd > > astronomical work that anybody could every produce! Still more > > inronically, Varahamihira, " the greatest astrologer of the last 1500 > > years " has praised that very Surya Sidhanta to the skies in his > > Pnahcasidhantika! And Varahamihira is supposed to have made > > accurate Predictions! Not only Varahamihira, but his son > > Prithuyashas is also said to have done so and there are quite a few > > astrological works by both of them! > > > > Right from the date of the Surya Sidhanta i.e. about 2nd century > > BCE, till about a hundred years back, all the panchanga-makers of > > India were basing their calculations on either the Surya Sidhanta or > > Aryabhati or Arya Sidhanta or later on some other Karna-grantha > > which just circumamublated around the Surya Sidhanta! > > > > In other words, right from the date of the Surya Sidhanta of Pancha- > > sidhantika till about a hundred years back, i.e. till the advent of > > planetary data from Greenwich and other observatories, we never had > > a correct panchanga! The planetary positions in the earlier > > panchangas were wrong by as many as twenty degrees very often! If > > you somehow reconciled one error by taking refuge in one ayanamsha, > > another error would crop up which was more horrendous than the one > > that was removed! > > > > And as is common knowledge, horoscopes whether of a common man or a > > Maharaja, are prepared from panchangas available in the market! > > > > The million dollar question that arises is that if there were no > > correct panchangas available till about a hundred years back, how on > > earth could any predictions based on the horscopes prepared from the > > same be correct! And if someone can make correct predictions from > > incorrect data, he is said to be a charlatan! In other wrods, all > > the Hindu astrology was " astrology by charlatans, for charlatans and > > of charlatans " . > > To crown it all, we call that very astrology now " Vedic astrology " . > > " Kudos " to such astrologers, especially, since this " Vedic (actualy > > anti-Vedic!) astrology " has made us celebrate all our festivals on > > wrong days! > > Regards, > > A K Kaul > > > > > > , " pnrazdan " <pnrazdan@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Sanat, > > > I have read most of the posts on the group as also your latest > > post > > > complaining that members are not reacting to your views. > > > In my opinion, the discussion in this group is one-sided. You as > > well > > > as one or two members are obsessed with " proving " that Vedic > > > astrology is a myth by trying to demolish arguments of all > > supporters > > > without any counter facts.Some members also use language of hatred > > > and make it almost a tirade against VA. It looks like the name of > > > this group should have been kept as " Myth of Astrology " rather > > than > > > Science of Astrology. > > > I also wanted to elaborate on my views in support of VA but found > > no > > > use since the forum is not open and not evenly placed. I am sure > > many > > > others are feeling like that. > > > Unless you make the group balanced and improve the quality of > > > discussions, I am afraid, it may not attract members contributions. > > > Regards, > > > P.N.Razdan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " Wes Stillwagon " > > > <wstillwagon1@> wrote: > > > > > > > > , " sanat2221 " > > > > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Resp. members, > > > > > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of discussion > > on > > > > > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am enclosing my > > > old > > > > > blog placed in the file section so that members may read it > > and > > > > > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not reacting > > > with > > > > a > > > > > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though they are > > > > > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can interact > > on > > > > my > > > > > email sanatkumar_jain@ > > > > > > > > > > So far members have observed that supporters of astrology are > > > > either > > > > > interested in by passing the main point or they have only > > faith > > > on > > > > > astrology without any scientific or logical support to any > > > concept. > > > > > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others to > > follow > > > > the > > > > > path of ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am always > > > > interested > > > > > in looking deep. > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > Sanat > > > > > > > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > > > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > > > > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied > > in > > > > depth > > > > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like > > > this. > > > > So > > > > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to > > > whether > > > > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science > > due > > > to > > > > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > > > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only > > want > > > to > > > > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us > > > > examine > > > > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you > > > have > > > > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are > > standing > > > > in > > > > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > > > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > > > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can > > understand > > > > the > > > > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but > > if > > > > you > > > > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or > > call > > > an > > > > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > > > > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in > > early > > > > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > > > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > > > > religious > > > > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, > > > Moon, > > > > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only > > > > sages > > > > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > > > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to > > > > predict > > > > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called > > > grabbing > > > > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > > > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > > > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer > > donations > > > > etc. > > > > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is > > > still > > > > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > > > > everybody > > > > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this > > situation, > > > it > > > > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the > > fate > > > of > > > > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the > > > fate > > > > of > > > > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate > > various > > > > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of > > > sages > > > > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > > > > principles > > > > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > > > > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > > > > percolated > > > > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to > > learn > > > > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles > > > were > > > > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western > > > > system. > > > > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One > > group > > > > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due > > to > > > > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to > > > fit > > > > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle > > > within > > > > a > > > > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith > > > etc., > > > > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > > > > astrological > > > > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > > > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) > > may > > > > come > > > > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start > > > self > > > > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on > > other > > > > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only > > > mislead, > > > > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can > > find > > > > that > > > > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group > > (say > > > > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against > > astrology. > > > > But > > > > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the > > > > level > > > > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > > > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure > > was > > > > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > > > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > > > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > > > > following > > > > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in > > > subpara). > > > > > > > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > > > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > > > > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the > > stationary > > > > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > > > > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity > > and > > > > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy > > of > > > > each > > > > > other) ? > > > > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons > > over > > > > > nector after sea-churning……….. > > > > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, > > > > quarter > > > > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on > > > seventh > > > > > house) ? > > > > > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > > > > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are > > exalted > > > and > > > > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of > > Aries > > > > > sign) ? > > > > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of > > > the > > > > > day is more in comparison to night…… > > > > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and > > hub > > > > of > > > > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas > > Venus > > > > (a > > > > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > > > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > > > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > > > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations > > > > between > > > > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > > > > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > > > > > > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > > > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > > > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the > > > structure > > > > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > > > > > > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion > > of > > > > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > > > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 > > > deg. > > > > > apart? > > > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > > > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > > > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > > > > > > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as > > to > > > > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > > > > answers to these questions then he will realize that entire > > > > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > > > > Universe. > > > > > > > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > > > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by > > sage > > > > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in > > the > > > > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in > > all > > > > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any > > > old > > > > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is > > > > beyond > > > > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and > > Moon. > > > > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles > > are > > > > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > > > > astrology > > > > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude > > correct > > > > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same > > combination > > > is > > > > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically > > and > > > > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive > > > concept > > > > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in > > view > > > of > > > > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive > > concept > > > > of > > > > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > > > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > > > > astrology " Jyotish - > > > > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book > > contains > > > > the > > > > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on > > the > > > > basis > > > > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our > > sages > > > to > > > > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in > > > English > > > > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). The > > > book > > > > is > > > > > being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > > > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > > > produktID=1759836 > > > > > > > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% > > > 20kumar% > > > > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > > > > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > > > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > > > > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune > > nor > > > > they > > > > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to > > presence > > > > of > > > > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the > > > > concept > > > > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was > > > mentioned > > > > in > > > > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came > > within > > > 14 > > > > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But > > > > nobody > > > > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse > > when > > > > Sun, > > > > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree > > respectively > > > > on > > > > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon > > and > > > > Ketu > > > > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03- 03- > > > 1988 > > > > ( > > > > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar > > > eclipses > > > > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more > > then > > > > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at > > 79.04 > > > > deg. > > > > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at > > > > 76.49 > > > > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was > > > 15.14 > > > > > deg. away). > > > > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will > > > also > > > > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred > > at > > > the > > > > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was > > > not > > > > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of > > > > myth). > > > > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when > > > Moon > > > > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. > > But > > > > As > > > > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11- 1985 > > > and > > > > 3- > > > > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full > > > solar > > > > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > > > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar > > > > eclipses > > > > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 > > > > degree > > > > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may > > possible. > > > > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in > > almanac. > > > > Thus > > > > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees > > respectively. > > > > All > > > > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this > > > fundamental > > > > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want > > > then > > > > I > > > > > can give many more examples and very simple method of > > detecting > > > > them. > > > > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science > > but > > > in > > > > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy > > + > > > > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > > > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) > > > played > > > > an > > > > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to > > > > immense > > > > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology > > > appears > > > > to > > > > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also > > > agree > > > > > with the above observation after going through my original > > > > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre- decided > > as > > > was > > > > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try > > to > > > > do > > > > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to > > pre- > > > > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying > > that > > > > pre- > > > > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, > > even > > > > then > > > > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a > > > > cascading > > > > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of > > every > > > > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say > > pre- > > > > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when > > every > > > > Tom, > > > > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good > > > deed > > > > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under > > change. > > > > You > > > > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > > > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can > > > never > > > > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot > > be > > > > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is > > also > > > > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > > > > prewritten) > > > > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because > > in > > > > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be > > altered > > > > but > > > > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction > > can > > > be > > > > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > > > > planets? > > > > > > > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest > > assured > > > > that > > > > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > > > > astronomy > > > > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > > > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > > > > correct. > > > > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. > > > Still > > > > if > > > > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The > > > James > > > > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize > > to > > > > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail > > and > > > > > website is jref@ and http://www.randi.org Because modern > > > > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used > > to > > > > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested > > business > > > > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this > > sort > > > > of > > > > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this > > > regard > > > > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > > > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > > > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct > > information > > > of > > > > > Universe, solar system. > > > > > > > > > > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and facts, > > data > > > > > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to join > > > hands > > > > > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). > > > > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > > > > Think differently, Think logically and Think scientifically > > > > > > > > > Im afraid that your " logic " and " thinking " is a bit off base on > > > this > > > > topic. Swiss Psychiatrist, Alexander Newton, Copernicus, Albert > > > > Einstein, Kepler, Frank Brown, Northwestern University, Makai > > > Takata, > > > > Toho University, and thousands of qualified and honored > > scientists > > > > agree that there is indeed a science called astrology. Newton > > said > > > > the following to Hally (comet) fame when he challenged the > > validity > > > > of astrology, " Sir I've studied the subject, you have not! " > > > > YOu are way off base and your examination of the subject is > > > > incomplete, your conclusions are without merit. > > > > > > > > Wes > > > > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 23, 2008 Report Share Posted July 23, 2008 Dear Sir, Your article is quite interesting.If you can furnish your date of birth,place and time of birth let us try some astrological predictions and see whether they work.?This is only out of academic interest.Regards, jagannathan. On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain wrote: Resp. members,We are not receiving any msg with some new point of discussion on astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am enclosing my old blog placed in the file section so that members may read it and comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not reacting with a fear to loose their reputation in other forums though they are silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can interact on my email sanatkumar_jain So far members have observed that supporters of astrology are either interested in by passing the main point or they have only faith on astrology without any scientific or logical support to any concept. Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others to follow the path of ignorance. I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am always interested in looking deep.ThanksSanatASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTHWill you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an astrologer in the consumer forum.At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles were the key factors for deciding the fate. Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system.What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level of information of sages about the Universe, who developed astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ?It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each other) ?Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over nector after sea-churning………..3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh house) ?Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries sign) ?Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the day is more in comparison to night……5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a small planet) has 20 years ?Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of Universe on the basis of lord and exalted…….6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ?Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week (Sunday, Monday etc.) ?Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)?On the basis of recurrence of eclipse…..9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. apart?On the basis of recurrence of eclipse………..10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ?Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month……….Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave answers to these questions then he will realize that entire astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of Universe.Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed.After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology " Jyotish - Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to formulate these principles. This book was also published in English with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?produktID=1759836 http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat%20kumar% 20jain & TAG= & CID=http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx?ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned in the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03-1988 ( Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 deg. away).To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3-10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them.I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears to be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree with the above observation after going through my original revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre-written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre-written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre-defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of planets? Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and website is jref and http://www.randi.org Because modern technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of Universe, solar system. It would be better to know the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society).Sanat Kumar JainThink differently, Think logically and Think scientifically Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 24, 2008 Report Share Posted July 24, 2008 Resp. Jagannathan ji, Namaskar, Thanks for your first msg. since your joining the forum and thanks for your views about the blog " Astrology a science or myth " . There is no sense in providing my date of birth for analysis. Even if you predict something then it has no value because either it may be wrong or psychologically it appears to be true; if it is correct then what is the use if I can not change my so called destiny, and if I can change my destiny after some remedial circus of wearing some gem etc. then how your so called prediction may be true if I could change my destiny. So if your prediction may go wrong then you take shelter that astrology is right but astrologer may be wrong. Thus instead of charging the capability of an astrologer please think differently and charge astrological principles it self. As to how they were formulated. What was the basic knowledge at that point of time. If you just go ahead in this direction then you can find that whole structure of principles of predictive astrology is based on primitive myth, which has nothing to do with modern scientific concept of Universe. I have raised many points in my blog " Astrology a science or myth " but since more then 5 years not a single astrologer could reply on these basic points (except reader of my book). You may have seen that how astrologers are trying to divert the main core issue, that is principles. I invite you to express your views on various points discussed so far (refer SOA_______ files in file section) or your views on various points raised in my blog as an academic discussion. And hope you will not silently read the msgs but will remain active. Thanks, Yours truly, Sanat 24-7-8 PS: Sh. Razdan Ji and Ghopal Ji may please come forward with reply on my comments dated 17-7-8, so that balance of discussion may be in your favour. Silence is not a solution. Silently reading is also not a solution. If some members are not agreeing with any observation of any member then they are free to express their views and should stand in support of predictive astrology or otherwise. The forum is meant for discussion, exchange of views, interaction, learning, teaching, improving knowledge, skill, logical approach, analyzing …………. And so on. If these are not the aim then we are simply wasting our time and energy. Even if we are not able to support our stand, whatever it may be then it is appropriate and right time to think afresh about your thinking, blind faith and stand. So when members are not able to support predictive astrology then either they may think about their stand or may call other astrologers in their support. Because forum is free and not controlled by any dictator moderator, who only want to hear own echo, like most of the forums. Moreover we all are here for academic discussion and has nothing to do with a person behind the msg. So feel free. Even some members may not be well aware with astrology, so do not hesitate in learning because initially every one was blank. So just now hold key board and type your observation, comments, arguments, belief……………… sanat , " Jagannathan Kapisthalam " <jagannathankr wrote: > > Dear Sir, > Your article is quite interesting.If you can furnish your date of > birth,place and time of birth let us try some astrological predictions and > see whether they work.?This is only out of academic interest. > Regards, > jagannathan. > > On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain wrote: > > > > > > Resp. members, > > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of discussion on > > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am enclosing my old > > blog placed in the file section so that members may read it and > > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not reacting with a > > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though they are > > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can interact on my > > email sanatkumar_jain <sanatkumar_jain%40rediffmail.com> > > > > So far members have observed that supporters of astrology are either > > interested in by passing the main point or they have only faith on > > astrology without any scientific or logical support to any concept. > > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others to follow the > > path of ignorance. > > > > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am always interested > > in looking deep. > > > > Thanks > > Sanat > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system. > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each > > other) ? > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > > nector after sea-churning……….. > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh > > house) ? > > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > > sign) ? > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > > day is more in comparison to night…… > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. > > apart? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > answers to these questions then he will realize that entire > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > Universe. > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology " Jyotish - > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in English > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). The book is > > being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? produktID=1759836 > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% 20kumar% > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned in > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- 1988 ( > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > > deg. away). > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3- > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I > > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them. > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears to > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree > > with the above observation after going through my original > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre- > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > planets? > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > > website is jref <jref%40randi.org> and http://www.randi.orgBecause modern > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > > Universe, solar system. > > > > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and facts, data > > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to join hands > > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > Think differently, Think logically and Think scientifically > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 25, 2008 Report Share Posted July 25, 2008 Dear Jagannathan Ji I am Rajeeva Lochana born in Bangalore, I use to read all the mails which comes from I saw your mail, so kindly can you predict based on my details? DOB = 05/05/1973 Time = 00:10 Place = Bangalore Now Guru dhasha is running, Regards Rajeev Best Regards Rajiv--- On Wed, 23/7/08, Jagannathan Kapisthalam <jagannathankr wrote: Jagannathan Kapisthalam <jagannathankrRe: Astrology a science or myth Date: Wednesday, 23 July, 2008, 10:56 AM Dear Sir, Your article is quite interesting. If you can furnish your date of birth,place and time of birth let us try some astrological predictions and see whether they work.?This is only out of academic interest.Regards, jagannathan. On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain@ rediffmail. com> wrote: Resp. members,We are not receiving any msg with some new point of discussion on astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am enclosing my old blog placed in the file section so that members may read it and comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not reacting with a fear to loose their reputation in other forums though they are silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can interact on my email sanatkumar_jain@ rediffmail. comSo far members have observed that supporters of astrology are either interested in by passing the main point or they have only faith on astrology without any scientific or logical support to any concept. Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others to follow the path of ignorance. I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am always interested in looking deep.ThanksSanatASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTHWill you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an astrologer in the consumer forum.At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu.They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles were the key factors for deciding the fate. Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system.What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc..) and faith etc., but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level of information of sages about the Universe, who developed astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated , Aspect, Vinshottary periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara).1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ?It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on……….2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each other) ?Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over nector after sea-churning………..3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh house) ?Based on the position of army in the battle field………..4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries sign) ?Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the day is more in comparison to night……5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a small planet) has 20 years ?Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of Universe on the basis of lord and exalted…….6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ?Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures……….7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week (Sunday, Monday etc.) ?Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away…..8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)?On the basis of recurrence of eclipse…..9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. apart?On the basis of recurrence of eclipse………..10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ?Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month……….Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave answers to these questions then he will realize that entire astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of Universe.Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed.After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology "Jyotish -Kitna sahi kitna galat" in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to formulate these principles. This book was also published in English with the title "Astrology a science or myth" (450 pages). The book is being marketed in USA /UK etc. Refer http://www.bokklubb en.no/samboweb/ produkt.do? produktID= 1759836http://www.thebookp lace.com/ bookplace/ results-asp? AUB=sanat% 20kumar%20jain & TAG= & CID=http://www.aggarwal overseas. com/booksdetail. aspx?ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=tAt that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11". It was mentioned in the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03-1988 ( Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 deg. away).To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3-10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them.I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense faith over astrology+astrologe r hence predictive astrology appears to be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree with the above observation after going through my original revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre-written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre-written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre-defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of planets?Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and website is jref and http://www.randi. org Because modern technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business interest.. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of Universe, solar system.It would be better to know the roots of astrology and facts, data behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to join hands because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society).Sanat Kumar JainThink differently, Think logically and Think scientifically Get an email ID as yourname or yourname. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2008 Report Share Posted July 26, 2008 Shri Jagannathan Kapisthalamji, Namaskar! <If you can furnish your date of birth,place and time of birth let us try some astrological predictions and see whether they work.?> My late maternal grandfather used to make predictions from horoscopes prepared from Grahalaghava panchangas, which were anything but correct, and that was admitted by the Panchanga makers themselves! Quite often his predictions proved correct! Does that prove that any predictive gimmicks are either scientific or Vedic? No. That cannot be so, since Grahalaghava was/is neither a Vedic work nor a scientific one! Thus even if some astrologers are able to make some correct predictions about some one sometimes, that never means/proves that those predictions were either on a scientific basis or as per the Vedic lore! All that proves is that sometimes some guess works do prove correct and that is why more often than not, correct preictions are made only from incorrect data, whether birth particulars or astronomical data, since Lahiri Ayanamsha in itself is the most monstrous ayanamsha that could ever have been invented by any charlatan!! And it is on the basis of only that ayanamsha that ninety- nine per cent predictions are made these days! With regards, A K Kaul , " Jagannathan Kapisthalam " <jagannathankr wrote: > > Dear Sir, > Your article is quite interesting.If you can furnish your date of > birth,place and time of birth let us try some astrological predictions and > see whether they work.?This is only out of academic interest. > Regards, > jagannathan. > > On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain wrote: > > > > > > Resp. members, > > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of discussion on > > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am enclosing my old > > blog placed in the file section so that members may read it and > > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not reacting with a > > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though they are > > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can interact on my > > email sanatkumar_jain <sanatkumar_jain%40rediffmail.com> > > > > So far members have observed that supporters of astrology are either > > interested in by passing the main point or they have only faith on > > astrology without any scientific or logical support to any concept. > > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others to follow the > > path of ignorance. > > > > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am always interested > > in looking deep. > > > > Thanks > > Sanat > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in depth > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like this. So > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to whether > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due to > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us examine > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing in > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand the > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if you > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This religious > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, Moon, > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only sages > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to predict > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called grabbing > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations etc. > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is still > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of everybody > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, it > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate of > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the fate of > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of sages > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These principles > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never percolated > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western system. > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > > past event very precisely within some astrological principle within a > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because astrological > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may come > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find that > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. But > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the level > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then following > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in subpara). > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of each > > other) ? > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > > nector after sea-churning……….. > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, quarter > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on seventh > > house) ? > > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted and > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > > sign) ? > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > > day is more in comparison to night…… > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub of > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus (a > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations between > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the structure > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 deg. > > apart? > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > > answers to these questions then he will realize that entire > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > > Universe. > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is beyond > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying astrology > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view of > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept of > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on astrology " Jyotish - > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains the > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the basis > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in English > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). The book is > > being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? produktID=1759836 > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% 20kumar% > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor they > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence of > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the concept > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was mentioned in > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But nobody > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when Sun, > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively on > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and Ketu > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- 1988 ( > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 deg. > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at 76.49 > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > > deg. away). > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at the > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of myth). > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But As > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 and 3- > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full solar > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar eclipses > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 degree > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. Thus > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. All > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want then I > > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting them. > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but in > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) played an > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to immense > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology appears to > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also agree > > with the above observation after going through my original > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as was > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to do > > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that pre- > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even then > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a cascading > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every Tom, > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good deed > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. You > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can never > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever prewritten) > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered but > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > > planets? > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured that > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only astronomy > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears correct. > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. Still if > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > > website is jref <jref%40randi.org> and http://www.randi.orgBecause modern > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort of > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > > Universe, solar system. > > > > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and facts, data > > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to join hands > > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > Think differently, Think logically and Think scientifically > > > > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 26, 2008 Report Share Posted July 26, 2008 Friends, I am new to the forum, but have a fair knowledge of astrology as it has been my hobby for over 35 years. I am all for questioning the validity of the subject, as I suspect that many many astrologers, are very gullible because they have not studied deeply enough to realise that the permutations in astrology run into the millions. Again most do not realise that it is possible to see anything and everything you want to see after the event with ANY and EVERY system, due to the enormous number of permutations. And f course, very few if any, go on to achieve good predictions. I think I have looked at just about every astrological system and method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, and others do not give consistently good results. It has been my aim to find one that does work, and to this end I started possibly the first of the regulat Blind Charts tests on the Web many years ago. I hoped to find a system that really did work. It is only in the last year or so that I have found such a system, which drew my attention because the students of a particular astrological institution kept getting correct results in our Blind Chart tests. The system is the Khullar method of Cuspal Interlinks. Anyhow my intention in writing this mail was to point out that it is not very practical to furnish personal data and then predict from it, because the waiting time for the prediction means everyone will lose interest long before the event does or does not happen. It would be much better to get members to furnish data, to include some events and family birthdates in order to be able to rectify the chart, and give say four options which participants will check to find out which of these options happened on a given date. This is real life astrology and is almost as good as future prediction, because you use exactly the same methods on an unknown event. Ron Gaunt On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:44:09 -0000, you wrote: >Shri Jagannathan Kapisthalamji, >Namaskar! ><If you can furnish your date of birth,place and time of birth let us >try some astrological predictions and see whether they work.?> > >My late maternal grandfather used to make predictions from horoscopes >prepared from Grahalaghava panchangas, which were anything but >correct, and that was admitted by the Panchanga makers themselves! >Quite often his predictions proved correct! > >Does that prove that any predictive gimmicks are either scientific or >Vedic? No. That cannot be so, since Grahalaghava was/is neither a >Vedic work nor a scientific one! > >Thus even if some astrologers are able to make some correct >predictions about some one sometimes, that never means/proves that >those predictions were either on a scientific basis or as per the >Vedic lore! All that proves is that sometimes some guess works do >prove correct and that is why more often than not, correct preictions >are made only from incorrect data, whether birth particulars or >astronomical data, since Lahiri Ayanamsha in itself is the most >monstrous ayanamsha that could ever have been invented by any >charlatan!! And it is on the basis of only that ayanamsha that ninety- >nine per cent predictions are made these days! >With regards, >A K Kaul > > , " Jagannathan Kapisthalam " ><jagannathankr wrote: >> >> Dear Sir, >> Your article is quite interesting.If you can furnish your date of >> birth,place and time of birth let us try some astrological >predictions and >> see whether they work.?This is only out of academic interest. >> Regards, >> jagannathan. >> >> On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain wrote: >> > >> > >> > Resp. members, >> > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of discussion on >> > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am enclosing my old >> > blog placed in the file section so that members may read it and >> > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not reacting >with a >> > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though they are >> > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can interact on >my >> > email sanatkumar_jain <sanatkumar_jain%40rediffmail.com> >> > >> > So far members have observed that supporters of astrology are >either >> > interested in by passing the main point or they have only faith on >> > astrology without any scientific or logical support to any >concept. >> > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others to follow >the >> > path of ignorance. >> > >> > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am always >interested >> > in looking deep. >> > >> > Thanks >> > Sanat >> > >> > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH >> > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some >> > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in >depth >> > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like >this. So >> > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to >whether >> > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due >to >> > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of >> > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to >> > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us >examine >> > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have >> > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing >in >> > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been >> > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a >> > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand >the >> > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if >you >> > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an >> > astrologer in the consumer forum. >> > >> > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early >> > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has >> > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This >religious >> > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, >Moon, >> > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only >sages >> > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after >> > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to >predict >> > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called >grabbing >> > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. >> > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its >> > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations >etc. >> > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is >still >> > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of >everybody >> > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, >it >> > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate >of >> > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the >fate of >> > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various >> > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of >sages >> > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These >principles >> > were the key factors for deciding the fate. >> > >> > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never >percolated >> > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn >> > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were >> > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western >system. >> > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group >> > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to >> > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit >> > past event very precisely within some astrological principle >within a >> > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., >> > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because >astrological >> > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical >> > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may >come >> > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self >> > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other >> > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, >> > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find >that >> > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say >> > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. >But >> > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the >level >> > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed >> > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was >> > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, >> > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary >> > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then >following >> > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in >subpara). >> > >> > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven >> > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? >> > >> > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary >> > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. >> > >> > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and >> > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of >each >> > other) ? >> > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over >> > nector after sea-churning……….. >> > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, >quarter >> > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on >seventh >> > house) ? >> > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. >> > >> > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted >and >> > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries >> > sign) ? >> > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the >> > day is more in comparison to night…… >> > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub >of >> > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus >(a >> > small planet) has 20 years ? >> > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of >> > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. >> > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations >between >> > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? >> > >> > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. >> > >> > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week >> > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? >> > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the >structure >> > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. >> > >> > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of >> > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. >> > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 >deg. >> > apart? >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. >> > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? >> > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. >> > >> > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to >> > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave >> > answers to these questions then he will realize that entire >> > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of >> > Universe. >> > >> > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then >> > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage >> > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the >> > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all >> > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old >> > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is >beyond >> > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. >> > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are >> > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying >astrology >> > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct >> > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is >> > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and >> > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept >> > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view >of >> > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept >of >> > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. >> > After lot of research I wrote an original book on >astrology " Jyotish - >> > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains >the >> > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the >basis >> > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to >> > formulate these principles. This book was also published in >English >> > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). The >book is >> > being marketed in USA /UK etc. >> > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? >produktID=1759836 >> > >> > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% >20kumar% >> > 20jain & TAG= & CID= >> > >> > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? >> > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t >> > >> > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor >they >> > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence >of >> > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the >concept >> > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was >mentioned in >> > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 >> > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But >nobody >> > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when >Sun, >> > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively >on >> > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and >Ketu >> > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- >1988 ( >> > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses >> > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then >> > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 >deg. >> > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at >76.49 >> > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 >> > deg. away). >> > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also >> > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at >the >> > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not >> > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of >myth). >> > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon >> > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But >As >> > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 >and 3- >> > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full >solar >> > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree >> > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar >eclipses >> > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 >degree >> > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. >> > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. >Thus >> > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. >All >> > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental >> > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want >then I >> > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting >them. >> > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but >in >> > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + >> > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology >> > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) >played an >> > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to >immense >> > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology >appears to >> > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also >agree >> > with the above observation after going through my original >> > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as >was >> > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to >do >> > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- >> > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that >pre- >> > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even >then >> > all attached happening will automatically change creating a >cascading >> > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every >> > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- >> > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every >Tom, >> > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good >deed >> > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. >You >> > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical >> > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can >never >> > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be >> > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also >> > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever >prewritten) >> > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in >> > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered >but >> > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be >> > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of >> > planets? >> > >> > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured >that >> > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only >astronomy >> > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used >> > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears >correct. >> > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. >Still if >> > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James >> > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to >> > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and >> > website is jref <jref%40randi.org> and >http://www.randi.orgBecause modern >> > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to >> > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business >> > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort >of >> > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard >> > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology >> > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate >> > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of >> > Universe, solar system. >> > >> > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and facts, data >> > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to join >hands >> > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). >> > Sanat Kumar Jain >> > Think differently, Think logically and Think scientifically >> > >> > >> > >> > > > >--- > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Vedic Astrology-Hyderabad , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved wrote: Shri Chandrashekharji, Namaskar! <If you are so certain that Vedic astrology is a hoax, why do you want to convince others that it has nothing to do with Vedas?> Because there is a direct conflict between the hoax called Vedic astrology---the Lahiri nirayana mess actually!---and the real Vedic/Hindu calendar! After all, somebody has to do plain speaking and call a spade a spade! <Jyotish is called Vedanga whether you like it or not and that is a fact.> Wht is a fact? Jyotish being called a Vedanga or my not liking it? If it is the former I agree with you that Jyotish is a Vedanga, but jyotish in the sense of deciding proper timings for Vedic rituals is a Vedanga whereas predictive gimmicks are a hoax being played on the Vedas in the name of the Vedanga Jyotisha! As such, it is clear that any hoax being played by anybody has to be exposed and not " liked " ! <Talking about astrologers gimmicks, as you call predictive astrology, as disrespect to Vedic seer and in the same breath saying that Jyotish has noting to do with Vedas as Mesha and grahas are not mentioned in Vedas is contradictory to say the least.> If someone attributes statements to seers which they never made, that is the real disrepsect and in that sense " Vedic astrologers " are the real culprits since they are showing the greatest disrepsect to the real Vamadevas and Parasharas on the behest of some overseas Vamadevas and fake Parasharas that the Vedic seers advocated predictive gimmicks on the basis of Mesha etc. rashis--and that also the Lahiri mess!--- and Mangal, Shani etc. planets! <Your one point agenda seems to be to criticize astrology practiced in India, for reasons best know to you.> Already explained above in first para! <I do not find you now a days claiming to be president/chairman of calendar reforms committee (formed in 1957) that you used to do, earlier on other jyotish lists, despite of the fact that that committee was disolved long before and it never mentioned you as its president/chairman or even member.> You appear to be in a hurry to make allegations/insinuations which you cannot prove/substantiate at all! Pl. quote even a single statement from my side wherein I have said that I was the President/Chairman of the Calendar Reform Committee formed in 1957 by the Govt. of India. Since you cannot do so, you will have to tender an unconditional apology for such allegations. <I remember that when I asked about this anomaly on one list you disappeared from the list.> Normally, I go by the edict of the Gita---dharmyad hiyudhach-chreyao nanyat kshatriyasya vidyate (hough I am not a Kshatirya by caste, but according to me it is the dharma of every Vedic Hindu to fight for the real Vedic dharma!)----and therefore, believe in replying every post especially if it is critical of my views! As such, either that " list " must have banned me---like the " world famous " group of Vedic-astrology or " Hinduism-environment " or " Om- namah-shivaya " etc. etc. or that group must be " moderated " for posts which just did/does not let my reply to your points appear there since Truth hurts such groups, < I would never have mentioned all this but your approach of abusing astrology as a science makes me take this step so that the member on the list understand the facts> Again, it appears that without having read even the Report of Meghnad Saha Calendar Reform Committee of 1957, you are making a fool of yourself by trying to ascribe statements to that committee that it had prasied astrology! Here is what that committe had said in its final recommendations on page 12, " He (Dr. Gorakh Prasad) pointed out that in the past there had been heroworship and guru-worship and due to personal animosity and financial considerations, several anomalies crept in. Even today panchanga making was a financial proposition. Astrology flourished on the principle, 'remember if it fits, forget if it misses " . Obviouisly, the Saha Calendar Reform Committe has had nothing but disgust for predictive gimmicks, but then some people have the habit of deliberately turning a blind eye (even deaf ears!) towards the facts that hurt their interests---whether financial or prestige--- even if it is at the cost of that very dharma that they claim to defend---Vedic dharma in the pesent case---on the shoulders of non- existent Vedic astrology! <I want to bring certain facts to light about National calendar reform Committee.> I wish you go through the full report of Saha Calendar Reform Committee! This is what it has said in the summary, on page 260, about the Lahiri nirayana mess " This (read Lahiri nirayana mess!) recommendation is to be regarded only as a measure of compromise so that we avoid a violent break with the established custom (read Grahalaghava/Lahiri calendar!). But it does not make our present seasons in the various months as they were in the days of Varahamihira or Kalidasa. It is hoped that at not a distant date, further reforms for locating the lunar and solar festivals in the seasons in which they were originally observed as per the Vedas and other shastras will be adopted " . This is what it has said further on the same page, " By continuing to follow the nirayana (read Lahiri mess) system, the Hindu calendar makers are under delusion that they are following the path of dharma. They are actualy committing the whole Hindu society to Adharma " . NEEDLESS TO TELL YOU HERE THAT YOU WANT THE ENTIRE HINDU SOCEITY TO CONITNUE TO WALLOW IN AHDARMA I.E. LAHIRI NIRAYANA MESS, ON THE SHOULDERS OF THE SAME CALENDAR REFORM COMMITTEE THAT YOU ARE QUOTING EVEN WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT IT HAS RECOMMENEDED! Better brush up your knowledge before entering into discussions! Dhanyavad! AKKsince Truth hurts such groups, Vedic Astrology-Hyderabad , Chandrashekhar <chandrashekhar46@> wrote: > > Dear Avatar Krishen Saheb, > > If you are so certain that Vedic astrology is a hoax, why do you want to > convince others that it has nothing to do with Vedas? Jyotish is called > Vedanga whether you like it or not and that is a fact. Talking about > astrologers gimmicks, as you call predictive astrology, as disrespect to > Vedic seer and in the same breath saying that Jyotish has noting to do > with Vedas as Mesha and grahas are not mentioned in Vedas is > contradictory to say the least. Your one point agenda seems to be to > criticize astrology practiced in India, for reasons best know to you. > > I do not find you now a days claiming to be president/chairman of > calendar reforms committee (formed in 1957) that you used to do, earlier > on other jyotish lists, despite of the fact that that committee was > disolved long before and it never mentioned you as its > president/chairman or even member. May be members on this do not of your > claim but I have read you saying this on many lists. I remember that > when I asked about this anomaly on one list you disappeared from the > list. So for the benefit of members I want to bring certain facts to > light about National calendar reform Committee. > > It was Meghnad Saha who was the chairman of that committee, other > members being A. C. Banerjee, K. K. Daftari, J. S. Karandikar, Gorakh > Prasad, R. V. Vaidya and N. C. Lahiri. Your name does not appear on the > Vigyan prasar.gov.in site. I would not have mentioned this but it seems > that your sole agenda is to call names to the divine science and try to > prove that even the dates of observation of various rituals are wrong. > > I wish to paste a link that gives information about the original > Calendar reform committee. I am sure the learned will draw their own > inference about the rationale or otherwise of your various arguments. > 1) http://www.vigyanprasar.gov.in/scientists/saha/sahanew.htm > 2) http://www.packolkata.org/history.html > > I would never have mentioned all this but your approach of abusing > astrology as a science makes me take this step so that the member on the > list understand the facts. > > Chandrashekhar. > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul wrote: > > > > > > <%40>, " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > Dear Razdan Sahib, > > Namaskar! > > Many thanks for your detailed reply! > > > > Let me try to analyze some of your points vis-a-vis the facts: > > <I have however interest in Vedic Astrology and have been studying it > > for the last eight years.> > > > > The alpha and omega of " Vedic astrology " are Mesha, Vrisha etc. > > rashis and all the seven planets besides Rahu and Kethu! Ironically, > > the Rashis---all the twelve of them---are conspicuous by their > > absence from the Vedas, Upanishadas, Brahmanas etc. etc. And so are > > the most dreaded planets like Mangal, Shani etc. There is no mention > > of Rahu but some reference to Swarbhanu whereas Kethu is referred to > > in the sense of " dhoomaketu " > > > > As such, to call any predictive gimmicks as Vedic astrology is to do > > great injustice to our Vedic Seers! > > > > < I felt that we Indians donot take our old scriptures seriously...> > > > > Could you kindly quote any scripture that has advised us to run after > > jyotishis in order to find out as to whether Lalu or Kalu will be the > > PM or " whether I will recover from my heart attack " ? To the best of > > my knowlege all our scriptures advise us > > " uttishthatai jagrata prapya varan nibodhata " . As such, to say that > > we are not taking our " jyotish scriptures " seriously is a patent lie > > since there are no scriptures that advise us to prctise predictive > > gimmicks! > > > > <while westerners not only study these but promote these and try to > > bring them on the so called scientific field.> > > > > Westerners are mercenaries! They are not promoting our scriptures > > but their own christianity! If they are interested in " Vedic > > astrology " it is only because they are milking a cow that has golden > > udders! Can you imagine as to how foolish we are when we believe the > > Western charlatans that they are promoting " Vedic astrology " when > > none of our scriptures has advised us to believe in any predictive > > gimmicks, at least the Rashi based ones! > > > > <My own opinion is that there is no need to find any proof for Vedic > > Astrology as a predictive tool> > > > > Does such an opinion have any value either logically or > > scientifically? Such opinions can be called " wishful thinking " or at > > best an illusion/hallucination of the highest order! > > > > <.( It is called Vedic to differentiate it from Western Astrology, > > Chinese Astrology etc and therefore there is nothing wrong in calling > > it so) > > > Why call it Vedic? Why not call it " Indian " or " Hindu " or " nirayana " > > and so on? As aleady explained, to call any predictive gimmicks > > as " Vedic " is to exhibit our ignorance of our Vedic knowledge to the > > whole world from housetops! It is politicians who tell such lies > > like attributing certain qualties to some " item " which that " item " > > does not possess! Real Vedic scholas never do so! > > > > <Do we need a proof for what Lord Krishna says in Bhagwat Gita.> > > > > No, we do not need any proofs for the same! But then the same Lord > > Krishna has never advised us to consult some soothsayer! Why are you > > forgetting the world famous sholka of the same Gita > > " karmanyeva adhikaraste ma phaleshu kadachana > > ma karma phala hetur bhoo ma te sango astu akarmani " > > > > Then again, when Arjuna tells Lord Krishna, as per the same Gita that > > you are quoting as an authority, > > " I do not know who will win the war " Lord Krishna did not advise > > Arjuna to consult some Jyotishsi to find out an answer to that > > question! On the other hand, He said to Arjuna in quite unambguous > > words, > > " If you get killed you will go to the heavens and if you win the war > > yo will be the master of the whole globe " > > > > Why are we, who call ourselves Krishna Bhaktas and Vedic Hindus, > > going against the dictum of the same Lord Krishna but following the > > dictum of some overseas Vamadeva and local " Parashara " etc. who are > > makinng a fool of us? > > > > <For example Parashara says that for a person to be good astrologist, > > he needs to be a Sanskari, a man imbued with faith on Dharma living a > > pure and austere life and having superior drishti ( some sort of > > sixth sense, some jyotishis of Kashmir had).> > > > > By Parashara, you mean Brihat Parashariwala Paashara! It appears you > > have not read any of my posts, where in it has been proved > > consclusively that the Parasharis galore that are floating around are > > not by Parashara the father of Krishna Dvaipayana Veda-Vyasa but some > > fake Parashara, maybe even several fake " Parasharas " . This has been > > demonstrated by Pt. S. B. Dikshit in his " Bharatiya Jyotish " and by > > Sitaram Jha in his original " Parasharai " published originally about > > seventy years back by Master Khelari Lal and Sons, Varanasi, which > > was later translated by R. Santhanam into English! However, > > Santhanam/publishers completely omitted the orignal words of Sitaram > > Jha that he had collected the (so called) Parashari from different > > sources and thus there was no guarantee that the work was really by > > Maharshi Parashara! > > > > All these Parasharis are like " Ravana Samhita " and " Brighu Samhita " --- > > master concoctios and nothing else! > > > > <For example we know very little about the use of divisional charts > > and it is possible we miss a lot of information from this lack of > > knowledge.> > > > > All these divisional charts and at least thirty-six types of Dasha > > Bhuktis and at least half a dozen ayanamshas are irrefutable proofs > > that " Vedic astrology " is nothing but a fraud that is being made more > > and more confusing with the passage of everyday so that in such a > > labyrinth, nobody tires to question the veracity of their statements! > > > > <what would have been possible with men who could remember several > > hundred pages of text easily like modern day computers.> > > > > Vedanga Jyotisha, the only indigenous astronomical work of about 1400 > > BCE comprises hardly a hundred shlokas! And that work gives just the > > methodology of calculating tithi, nakshatra and the months Madhu, > > Madhava etc. > > > > Besides, as already explained hundeds of times, prior to the advent > > of planetary data from overseas observatories like that of Greenwich > > and US Naval Observatory etc., India never had any methodology of > > calculating correct planetary longitudes! In other words, right from > > the Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha of second century BCE till > > about 1900 AD, India could never calculate horoscopes properly, since > > the planetary longitudes derived from the Surya Sidhanta or Aryabhati > > or Sidhanhta Shiromani or Grahalghava or Makaranda etc. etc. were > > incorrect by several degrees whatever the ayanamsha used! As such, > > to expect that our forefathers/ancestors made correct predcitions is > > to live in a fool's paradise! They never had the wherewithall to do > > so whether by way of astronomy or by way of astrological literature > > since all the astrologcial jargon is a direct import from > > Babylon/Greece! > > > > <It is fashionable among Hindus to criticise their own faith since > > the word Hindu and things associated with it are considered primitive > > and unscientific> > > > > I had thrown a challenge to all the astrologers, whether Vedic or > > anti-Vedic or non-Vedic to quote even a single sholka from any Purana > > or Smriti or Itihasa or any other shastra---leave alone the Vedas- -- > > that has asked us to cosnult some soothsayer before embarking on any > > plan! I repeat that challenge! > > > > Since there are no such references, we are becoming a pawn in the > > hands of overseas and even local mercenaries who are brainwashing us > > that we must believe that predictive gimmicks are as per the Hindu > > shastras! NO they are not! They are imports from Greece and the > > earlier we realize that truth the better for the entire Hindu > > community, since it is only such a blind faith in " Veic astrology " > > that is compelling us to celebrate all our festivals and muhurtas on > > wrong days, and thus making us decimate our own Vedic culture by our > > own foolishness of our faith in " Vedic astrology " ! > > The sooner we come out of such a stupor the better! > > With regards, > > A K Kaul > > > > > > <%40>, " pnrazdan " <pnrazdan@> > > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Kaul Sahib, > > > Namaskar. Yes, I have read your several posts on the Panchang > > > calculations and the detailed elaboration of your views on what you > > > term as the mistake committed in the calculations. I donot have > > > knoweldge on this subject and therefore cannot comment. > > > I have however interest in Vedic Astrology and have been studying it > > > for the last eight years. I developed interest for it while I was in > > > US after meeting some westerners who are quite knoweldgeble in it. I > > > felt that we Indians donot take our old scriptures seriously while > > > westerners not only study these but promote these and try to bring > > > them on the so called scientific field. Thus Yoga has become a > > > household word here in US and a lot has been done for Vedic > > Astrology > > > by developing the software for chart making, setting up of two > > > Associations both in Britain and US etc., notwithstanding the spread > > > of various quacks who make lot of money in this field. > > > > > > My own opinion is that there is no need to find any proof for Vedic > > > Astrology as a predictive tool even though I find enough to brand it > > > as a science.( It is called Vedic to differentiate it from Western > > > Astrology, Chinese Astrology etc and therefore there is nothing > > wrong > > > in calling it so) Do we need a proof for what Lord Krishna says in > > > Bhagwat Gita. Do we need to prove that Spiritual path is the only > > way > > > to get ultimate bliss. Faith is essential in these things because it > > > comes from the same class of " people " who gave us the supreme > > > knowledge enshrined in vedas, upanishads etc.Faith on past life and > > > Karmic theory too is essential pre requisite for this. > > > Well proving it to be a science looks to me as childish since the > > > present scientific parameters seem to be primitive to measure its > > > " scientific " character. For example Parashara says that for a person > > > to be good astrologist, he needs to be a Sanskari, a man imbued with > > > faith on Dharma living a pure and austere life and having superior > > > drishti ( some sort of sixth sense, some jyotishis of Kashmir had). > > > This is one of the several attributes that a perfect astrologist > > needs > > > to have while making a successful prediction. Where will this > > > attribute come in the long list of variables that we try to employ > > for > > > making a cause-effect relationship following the secintific > > > terminology. That is why I say that this sort of scientific form > > > y=f(x) will not work in this field. Besides the mathematical > > > relationships cannot hold good here because no two persons are > > similar > > > in this world. Human nature being different, one has to find these > > > sophistications in each chart, something that we know very little > > of. > > > For example we know very little about the use of divisional charts > > and > > > it is possible we miss a lot of information from this lack of > > knowledge. > > > Just as Arjuna while tired of hearing Lord Krishna, begs Him of a > > > practical proof of what He says to him and thereafter Lord Krishna > > > bestows Arjuna with a new pair of eyes to have divya drishti and to > > > see his Virat Swarup, similarly we cannot measure the scientific > > > nature of VA by the existing science, the calculations of NASA etc. > > > Several good astrologists make a good analysis and it is not > > > difficult to see good and bad from the chart at least like a haze. > > If > > > all this is possible with our little knowledge, what would have been > > > possible with men who could remember several hundred pages of text > > > easily like modern day computers.Faculties of men in Kaliyug are > > > limited and we are just fiddling with knowledge through our limited > > > tools.Most importantly, there is self doubt. It is fashionable among > > > Hindus to criticise their own faith since the word Hindu and things > > > associated with it are considered primitive and unscientific. > > > Regards, > > > P.N.Razdan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear P. N. Razdan Sahib, > > > > Namaskar Mahara! > > > > > > > > Regarding the discussion whether astrology is a science or myth, > > I > > > > am personally of the opinion that astrology is a way of making a > > > > fool of a common man! How I arrived at such a conclusion, let me > > > > narrate in brief! > > > > As you are aware, I am also from Srinagar, Kashmir. I was myself > > > > immersed deep in all the " attributes " of astrology right > > > > from " Badsharwar " (sade-sati) to " Tekini-milanavuni " (Patri > > Milapak) > > > > etc. etc. My maternal grandfather, late Shri Nath Ji Shastri > > > > (Pajnoo) of Chundapura, Srinagar, Kashmir was a very reputed > > > > astrologer, though he never charged any thing from anybody! > > Probably > > > > you might have heard his name there! > > > > > > > > I inherited a lot of Sanskrit literature---including books on > > > > astrology----from him, which, unfortunately, got destroyed in > > 1990 > > > > because of the political disturbances there. > > > > > > > > You must also be aware that till about 1985 there was only one > > > > Janri/Panchang there in Srinagar and that was Vijay-eshwar > > > > Jantri/panchang which was being published for the last about two > > > > centuries. My grandpa was an avid reader of the same in Sharda > > > > script. > > > > I was under the impression that that was a divine work as > > otherwise > > > > how could a human being calculate the planetary positions! I > > would > > > > take every word of the same as gospel truth and read my Rashiphal > > > > and " amdani-kharch ka naksha " etc. etc. at least fifteen to > > twenty > > > > times. From there I " graduated " to Brihat Parashari, Manasagari, > > > > Brihat Jatakam, Sanket Nidhi, Kheta-Kautukam etc. etc. In fact > > > > there is perhaps not even a signle book on predictive gimmicks > > > > whether in Sanskrit or Urdu or Hindi or English that I have not > > gone > > > > through and tested and tried in day to day life! > > > > > > > > When quite a few predictions did not come true in spite of the > > same > > > > having been made as per impeccable jyotisha-shastras, I started > > > > delving deep into astronomy, both sidhantic and astrophysics! > > > > > > > > Regarding " mundane affairs " i.e. the fate of our " Moj kasheer " > > > > (Mother Kashmir) we had nobody else to fall back upon except what > > > > our Vijayeshwar-wala told us! He was our friend, philospher and > > > > guide! And unfortunately for the KP community, he let us down > > badly > > > > becuase during the years 1989 and 1990, when insurgency was at > > its > > > > hieght in Kashmir, he had repeated/assured in his Jantri that > > peace > > > > would reign in the valley! AND you are fully aware as to what > > type > > > > of peace it was---we became refugees in our own motherland and > > quite > > > > a few KPs were butchered and quite a few Kashmiri ladies raped > > and > > > > enslaved for lives! > > > > And that was the peace that Vijayeshwarwala had predicted > > for " Moj > > > > Kahseer " ! > > > > > > > > (That reminds me of the fate of our nighbour, the only Hindu > > kingdom > > > > of yesteryears, where the erstwhile king--an Incarnation of > > Visnhu!-- > > > > was murdered by his own son the crown prince since the jyotishis > > > > there did not allow the King to marry the crown prince to his > > sweet > > > > heart as their " patri-melapak was not having the requisite number > > of > > > > gunas " !) > > > > > > > > To add insult to injury, the same Vijayeswhar-wala admitted in > > his > > > > 1994 or 1995 jantri that till then he was making calculations > > > > from " Makaranda " but now he would start doing so from " drik- > > > > ganita " ! He had the cheek to say further that till then he was > > > > doing the calcuatons from " Makaranda " only because his > > competitors > > > > i.e. Brahmana Maha-mandal was doing so! > > > > > > > > Coming to calculations part, Vedic Hindus have never bothered > > about > > > > predictive gimmicks, at least not the rashi-based ones! As such, > > > > the very first work of planetary astronomy in India is the Surya > > > > Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha! Ironically, that is the most > > absurd > > > > astronomical work that anybody could every produce! Still more > > > > inronically, Varahamihira, " the greatest astrologer of the last > > 1500 > > > > years " has praised that very Surya Sidhanta to the skies in his > > > > Pnahcasidhantika! And Varahamihira is supposed to have made > > > > accurate Predictions! Not only Varahamihira, but his son > > > > Prithuyashas is also said to have done so and there are quite a > > few > > > > astrological works by both of them! > > > > > > > > Right from the date of the Surya Sidhanta i.e. about 2nd century > > > > BCE, till about a hundred years back, all the panchanga- makers of > > > > India were basing their calculations on either the Surya Sidhanta > > or > > > > Aryabhati or Arya Sidhanta or later on some other Karna- grantha > > > > which just circumamublated around the Surya Sidhanta! > > > > > > > > In other words, right from the date of the Surya Sidhanta of > > Pancha- > > > > sidhantika till about a hundred years back, i.e. till the advent > > of > > > > planetary data from Greenwich and other observatories, we never > > had > > > > a correct panchanga! The planetary positions in the earlier > > > > panchangas were wrong by as many as twenty degrees very often! > > If > > > > you somehow reconciled one error by taking refuge in one > > ayanamsha, > > > > another error would crop up which was more horrendous than the > > one > > > > that was removed! > > > > > > > > And as is common knowledge, horoscopes whether of a common man or > > a > > > > Maharaja, are prepared from panchangas available in the market! > > > > > > > > The million dollar question that arises is that if there were no > > > > correct panchangas available till about a hundred years back, how > > on > > > > earth could any predictions based on the horscopes prepared from > > the > > > > same be correct! And if someone can make correct predictions > > from > > > > incorrect data, he is said to be a charlatan! In other wrods, > > all > > > > the Hindu astrology was " astrology by charlatans, for charlatans > > and > > > > of charlatans " . > > > > To crown it all, we call that very astrology now " Vedic > > astrology " . > > > > " Kudos " to such astrologers, especially, since this " Vedic > > (actualy > > > > anti-Vedic!) astrology " has made us celebrate all our festivals > > on > > > > wrong days! > > > > Regards, > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, " pnrazdan " <pnrazdan@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sanat, > > > > > I have read most of the posts on the group as also your latest > > > > post > > > > > complaining that members are not reacting to your views. > > > > > In my opinion, the discussion in this group is one-sided. You > > as > > > > well > > > > > as one or two members are obsessed with " proving " that Vedic > > > > > astrology is a myth by trying to demolish arguments of all > > > > supporters > > > > > without any counter facts.Some members also use language of > > hatred > > > > > and make it almost a tirade against VA. It looks like the name > > of > > > > > this group should have been kept as " Myth of Astrology " rather > > > > than > > > > > Science of Astrology. > > > > > I also wanted to elaborate on my views in support of VA but > > found > > > > no > > > > > use since the forum is not open and not evenly placed. I am > > sure > > > > many > > > > > others are feeling like that. > > > > > Unless you make the group balanced and improve the quality of > > > > > discussions, I am afraid, it may not attract members > > contributions. > > > > > Regards, > > > > > P.N.Razdan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, " Wes Stillwagon " > > > > > <wstillwagon1@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <%40>, " sanat2221 " > > > > > > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Resp. members, > > > > > > > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of > > discussion > > > > on > > > > > > > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am enclosing > > my > > > > > old > > > > > > > blog placed in the file section so that members may read it > > > > and > > > > > > > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not > > reacting > > > > > with > > > > > > a > > > > > > > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though they > > are > > > > > > > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can > > interact > > > > on > > > > > > my > > > > > > > email sanatkumar_jain@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far members have observed that supporters of astrology > > are > > > > > > either > > > > > > > interested in by passing the main point or they have only > > > > faith > > > > > on > > > > > > > astrology without any scientific or logical support to any > > > > > concept. > > > > > > > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others to > > > > follow > > > > > > the > > > > > > > path of ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am always > > > > > > interested > > > > > > > in looking deep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > Sanat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > > > > > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to > > some > > > > > > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not > > studied > > > > in > > > > > > depth > > > > > > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed > > like > > > > > this. > > > > > > So > > > > > > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to > > > > > whether > > > > > > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of > > science > > > > due > > > > > to > > > > > > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments > > of > > > > > > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only > > > > want > > > > > to > > > > > > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let > > us > > > > > > examine > > > > > > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because > > you > > > > > have > > > > > > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are > > > > standing > > > > > > in > > > > > > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has > > been > > > > > > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology > > is a > > > > > > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can > > > > understand > > > > > > the > > > > > > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business > > but > > > > if > > > > > > you > > > > > > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or > > > > call > > > > > an > > > > > > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in > > > > early > > > > > > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being > > has > > > > > > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > > > > > > religious > > > > > > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet > > (Sun, > > > > > Moon, > > > > > > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days > > only > > > > > > sages > > > > > > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus > > after > > > > > > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill > > to > > > > > > predict > > > > > > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so- called > > > > > grabbing > > > > > > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > > > > > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and > > its > > > > > > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer > > > > donations > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which > > is > > > > > still > > > > > > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > > > > > > everybody > > > > > > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this > > > > situation, > > > > > it > > > > > > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the > > > > fate > > > > > of > > > > > > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict > > the > > > > > fate > > > > > > of > > > > > > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate > > > > various > > > > > > > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge > > of > > > > > sages > > > > > > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > > > > > > principles > > > > > > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > > > > > > percolated > > > > > > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to > > > > learn > > > > > > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these > > principles > > > > > were > > > > > > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as > > Western > > > > > > system. > > > > > > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One > > > > group > > > > > > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology > > due > > > > to > > > > > > > their business considerations (these astrologers always try > > to > > > > > fit > > > > > > > past event very precisely within some astrological > > principle > > > > > within > > > > > > a > > > > > > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and > > faith > > > > > etc., > > > > > > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > > > > > > astrological > > > > > > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too > > diabolical > > > > > > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in > > fluke) > > > > may > > > > > > come > > > > > > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and > > start > > > > > self > > > > > > > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on > > > > other > > > > > > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only > > > > > mislead, > > > > > > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can > > > > find > > > > > > that > > > > > > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group > > > > (say > > > > > > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against > > > > astrology. > > > > > > But > > > > > > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was > > the > > > > > > level > > > > > > > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > > > > > > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure > > > > was > > > > > > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to > > Lordship, > > > > > > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > > > > > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > > > > > > following > > > > > > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in > > > > > subpara). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among > > seven > > > > > > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the > > > > stationary > > > > > > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on.......... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity > > > > and > > > > > > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are > > enemy > > > > of > > > > > > each > > > > > > > other) ? > > > > > > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and > > demons > > > > over > > > > > > > nector after sea-churning........... > > > > > > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect > > (full, > > > > > > quarter > > > > > > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on > > > > > seventh > > > > > > > house) ? > > > > > > > Based on the position of army in the battle field........... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are > > > > exalted > > > > > and > > > > > > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of > > > > Aries > > > > > > > sign) ? > > > > > > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration > > of > > > > > the > > > > > > > day is more in comparison to night...... > > > > > > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful > > and > > > > hub > > > > > > of > > > > > > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas > > > > Venus > > > > > > (a > > > > > > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > > > > > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect > > of > > > > > > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted....... > > > > > > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various > > constellations > > > > > > between > > > > > > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures.......... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a > > week > > > > > > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > > > > > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the > > > > > structure > > > > > > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde > > motion > > > > of > > > > > > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > > > > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse..... > > > > > > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are > > 180 > > > > > deg. > > > > > > > apart? > > > > > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse........... > > > > > > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > > > > > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month.......... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question > > as > > > > to > > > > > > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one > > gave > > > > > > > answers to these questions then he will realize that entire > > > > > > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept > > of > > > > > > > Universe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the > > then > > > > > > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by > > > > sage > > > > > > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in > > > > the > > > > > > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed > > in > > > > all > > > > > > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read > > any > > > > > old > > > > > > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon > > is > > > > > > beyond > > > > > > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and > > > > Moon. > > > > > > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological > > principles > > > > are > > > > > > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > > > > > > astrology > > > > > > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude > > > > correct > > > > > > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same > > > > combination > > > > > is > > > > > > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh > > logically > > > > and > > > > > > > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive > > > > > concept > > > > > > > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in > > > > view > > > > > of > > > > > > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive > > > > concept > > > > > > of > > > > > > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > > > > > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > > > > > > astrology " Jyotish - > > > > > > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book > > > > contains > > > > > > the > > > > > > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on > > > > the > > > > > > basis > > > > > > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our > > > > sages > > > > > to > > > > > > > formulate these principles. This book was also published in > > > > > English > > > > > > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). > > The > > > > > book > > > > > > is > > > > > > > being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > > > > > > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > > <http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do?> > > > > > produktID=1759836 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp? AUB=sanat% > > <http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat%> > > > > > 20kumar% > > > > > > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > <http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx?> > > > > > > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, > > Neptune > > > > nor > > > > > > they > > > > > > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to > > > > presence > > > > > > of > > > > > > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed > > the > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was > > > > > mentioned > > > > > > in > > > > > > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came > > > > within > > > > > 14 > > > > > > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). > > But > > > > > > nobody > > > > > > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse > > > > when > > > > > > Sun, > > > > > > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree > > > > respectively > > > > > > on > > > > > > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon > > > > and > > > > > > Ketu > > > > > > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03- > > 03- > > > > > 1988 > > > > > > ( > > > > > > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar > > > > > eclipses > > > > > > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was > > more > > > > then > > > > > > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at > > > > 79.04 > > > > > > deg. > > > > > > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were > > at > > > > > > 76.49 > > > > > > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu > > was > > > > > 15.14 > > > > > > > deg. away). > > > > > > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you > > will > > > > > also > > > > > > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse > > occurred > > > > at > > > > > the > > > > > > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it > > was > > > > > not > > > > > > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis > > of > > > > > > myth). > > > > > > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, > > when > > > > > Moon > > > > > > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be > > there. > > > > But > > > > > > As > > > > > > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12- 11- > > 1985 > > > > > and > > > > > > 3- > > > > > > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were > > full > > > > > solar > > > > > > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > > > > > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full > > solar > > > > > > eclipses > > > > > > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and > > 166 > > > > > > degree > > > > > > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may > > > > possible. > > > > > > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in > > > > almanac. > > > > > > Thus > > > > > > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees > > > > respectively. > > > > > > All > > > > > > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this > > > > > fundamental > > > > > > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you > > want > > > > > then > > > > > > I > > > > > > > can give many more examples and very simple method of > > > > detecting > > > > > > them. > > > > > > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a > > science > > > > but > > > > > in > > > > > > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of > > astronomy > > > > + > > > > > > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, > > psychology > > > > > > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) > > > > > played > > > > > > an > > > > > > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due > > to > > > > > > immense > > > > > > > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology > > > > > appears > > > > > > to > > > > > > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will > > also > > > > > agree > > > > > > > with the above observation after going through my original > > > > > > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre- > > decided > > > > as > > > > > was > > > > > > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may > > try > > > > to > > > > > > do > > > > > > > some thing, because every thing will take place according > > to > > > > pre- > > > > > > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of > > modifying > > > > that > > > > > > pre- > > > > > > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, > > > > even > > > > > > then > > > > > > > all attached happening will automatically change creating a > > > > > > cascading > > > > > > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of > > > > every > > > > > > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or > > say > > > > pre- > > > > > > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when > > > > every > > > > > > Tom, > > > > > > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, > > good > > > > > deed > > > > > > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under > > > > change. > > > > > > You > > > > > > > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > > > > > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and > > can > > > > > never > > > > > > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart > > cannot > > > > be > > > > > > > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is > > > > also > > > > > > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > > > > > > prewritten) > > > > > > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. > > because > > > > in > > > > > > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be > > > > altered > > > > > > but > > > > > > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction > > > > can > > > > > be > > > > > > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit > > of > > > > > > > planets? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest > > > > assured > > > > > > that > > > > > > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > > > > > > astronomy > > > > > > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were > > used > > > > > > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > > > > > > correct. > > > > > > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a > > myth. > > > > > Still > > > > > > if > > > > > > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact > > The > > > > > James > > > > > > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 > > prize > > > > to > > > > > > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e- mail > > > > and > > > > > > > website is jref@ and http://www.randi.org > > <http://www.randi.org> Because modern > > > > > > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being > > used > > > > to > > > > > > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested > > > > business > > > > > > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight > > this > > > > sort > > > > > > of > > > > > > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this > > > > > regard > > > > > > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > > > > > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to > > formulate > > > > > > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct > > > > information > > > > > of > > > > > > > Universe, solar system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and > > facts, > > > > data > > > > > > > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to > > join > > > > > hands > > > > > > > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). > > > > > > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > > > > > > Think differently, Think logically and Think scientifically > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im afraid that your " logic " and " thinking " is a bit off base > > on > > > > > this > > > > > > topic. Swiss Psychiatrist, Alexander Newton, Copernicus, > > Albert > > > > > > Einstein, Kepler, Frank Brown, Northwestern University, Makai > > > > > Takata, > > > > > > Toho University, and thousands of qualified and honored > > > > scientists > > > > > > agree that there is indeed a science called astrology. Newton > > > > said > > > > > > the following to Hally (comet) fame when he challenged the > > > > validity > > > > > > of astrology, " Sir I've studied the subject, you have not! " > > > > > > YOu are way off base and your examination of the subject is > > > > > > incomplete, your conclusions are without merit. > > > > > > > > > > > > Wes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Dear Ron, Welcome in the forum for your first msg. You have good knowledge of astrology, still you are not convinced with any system and advocating an another Khullar system. I am reproducing your stand >>>>>>>Again most do not realise that it is possible to see anything and everything you want to see after the event with ANY and EVERY system, due to the enormous number of permutations. I think I have looked at just about every astrological system and method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, and others do not give consistently good results. <<<<<<<<<<< against you. Because it makes no difference as to whether we are linking any past event with some principles or we are linking future prediction with our psychology. If I will say your next month is not good and you have faith on predictive astrology, then every psychological odd in next month will be linked with this prediction and in sub-conscious mind you may bent upon to think that astrology is correct. So it has no relevancy at all. We in India are being befooled and cheated by astrologers since 2000 years without knowing that sign was devised by Greeks and adopted by us without any religious support. Because mass population always remains uneducated and educated lot are being lured by crowd of heads on shoulders (without knowing that their heads are empty in this respect) who follows some traditions. Cunning or ignorant astrologers after reading some latest books on astrology, full with praise of sages and latest data of solar system thinks (and propagate) that our sages were well known with modern data. Thus they are able to befool ignorant public in the name of Ved, Sage, Myth and so on with the help of Media and publicity. Bare fact is this that our sages were very logical and open to all sort of logical knowledge (which can not be questioned). They were very clear when they appreciate the knowledge of Greeks because they were of the opinion " tamso ma jyotirgamay " means we must go ahead towards knowledge from ignorance. For the purpose of knowledge they were following " Vasudevam kutumbkam " means whole world is a family. Thus they adopted sign system and other knowledge from Greeks and mixed it with our constellational system and religious concept of formation of universe. Thus our sages formulated basic principles like sign lord, aspect, friendship, exalted, dasha and so on (refer my book in Hindi or in English for detailed procedure etc.), by which they were able to forecast some thing which happens to be true (psychologically, and this phenomena was not known till 18th century). Thus Greeks then Romans adopted these principles and subsequently slightly modified (aspect) as Western system, whereas sign lord etc are same. As we Indians are not aware that concept of sign belongs to Greek / Babylonia likewise Western countries are not aware that sign lord etc. principles were formulated by our sages on the basis of religious myth that Earth is stationary, Sun is nearer then Moon, all constellation are just above Moon and so on. In this way where we Indians are being befooled in the name of Ved, sages; likewise western countries were being befooled that predictive principals were formulated by Ptolemy and now everyone is after socalled " Vedic astrology " without knowing that there is no predictive astrology in Ved. Thus predictive astrology is merely a psychological game like magic. We must enjoy this game but must not be lured like a fool who may be lured by creation of currency notes from a box by a magician and left his job in the hope to create note from that box. So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must find out the procedure as to how all basic principles were formulated and is their any scientific logic (in view of modern knowledge) or not. Some points were discussed in brief (refer SOA_______ files in file section) because followers of astrology, could not stand after raising very simple arguments and further discussion could not be done. I hope that after +35 years of experience you may like to discuss on any point. Thanks, Yours truly, Sanat PS: Sh. Razdan Ji, Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji may please come forward with reply on my comments. Silence is not a solution. Silently reading is also not a solution. When we are in a forum then either we must educate other members or may improve our knowledge. Remaining " as it is " is not a good sign. For improvement we must have inquisitive mind. I am ready to learn from expert astrologers but not as blind supporter. If Astrology is science then it must cross all questions and must have logical answers to all sort of doubt. , " rongaunt au " <rongaunt wrote: > > > Friends, > > I am new to the forum, but have a fair knowledge of astrology as > it has been my hobby for over 35 years. I am all for > questioning the validity of the subject, as I suspect that many > many astrologers, are very gullible because they have not > studied deeply enough to realise that the permutations in > astrology run into the millions. Again most do not realise that > it is possible to see anything and everything you want to see > after the event with ANY and EVERY system, due to the enormous > number of permutations. And f course, very few if any, go on to > achieve good predictions. > > I think I have looked at just about every astrological system and > method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, and > others do not give consistently good results. It has been my aim > to find one that does work, and to this end I started possibly > the first of the regulat Blind Charts tests on the Web many years > ago. I hoped to find a system that really did work. It is > only in the last year or so that I have found such a system, > which drew my attention because the students of a particular > astrological institution kept getting correct results in our > Blind Chart tests. The system is the Khullar method of Cuspal > Interlinks. > > Anyhow my intention in writing this mail was to point out that it > is not very practical to furnish personal data and then predict > from it, because the waiting time for the prediction means > everyone will lose interest long before the event does or does > not happen. It would be much better to get members to furnish > data, to include some events and family birthdates in order to be > able to rectify the chart, and give say four options which > participants will check to find out which of these options > happened on a given date. This is real life astrology and is > almost as good as future prediction, because you use exactly the > same methods on an unknown event. > > > Ron Gaunt > > > On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:44:09 -0000, you wrote: > > >Shri Jagannathan Kapisthalamji, > >Namaskar! > ><If you can furnish your date of birth,place and time of birth let us > >try some astrological predictions and see whether they work.?> > > > >My late maternal grandfather used to make predictions from horoscopes > >prepared from Grahalaghava panchangas, which were anything but > >correct, and that was admitted by the Panchanga makers themselves! > >Quite often his predictions proved correct! > > > >Does that prove that any predictive gimmicks are either scientific or > >Vedic? No. That cannot be so, since Grahalaghava was/is neither a > >Vedic work nor a scientific one! > > > >Thus even if some astrologers are able to make some correct > >predictions about some one sometimes, that never means/proves that > >those predictions were either on a scientific basis or as per the > >Vedic lore! All that proves is that sometimes some guess works do > >prove correct and that is why more often than not, correct preictions > >are made only from incorrect data, whether birth particulars or > >astronomical data, since Lahiri Ayanamsha in itself is the most > >monstrous ayanamsha that could ever have been invented by any > >charlatan!! And it is on the basis of only that ayanamsha that ninety- > >nine per cent predictions are made these days! > >With regards, > >A K Kaul > > > > , " Jagannathan Kapisthalam " > ><jagannathankr@> wrote: > >> > >> Dear Sir, > >> Your article is quite interesting.If you can furnish your date of > >> birth,place and time of birth let us try some astrological > >predictions and > >> see whether they work.?This is only out of academic interest. > >> Regards, > >> jagannathan. > >> > >> On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > Resp. members, > >> > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of discussion on > >> > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am enclosing my old > >> > blog placed in the file section so that members may read it and > >> > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not reacting > >with a > >> > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though they are > >> > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can interact on > >my > >> > email sanatkumar_jain@ <sanatkumar_jain%40rediffmail.com> > >> > > >> > So far members have observed that supporters of astrology are > >either > >> > interested in by passing the main point or they have only faith on > >> > astrology without any scientific or logical support to any > >concept. > >> > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others to follow > >the > >> > path of ignorance. > >> > > >> > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am always > >interested > >> > in looking deep. > >> > > >> > Thanks > >> > Sanat > >> > > >> > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > >> > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > >> > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in > >depth > >> > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like > >this. So > >> > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to > >whether > >> > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due > >to > >> > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > >> > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > >> > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us > >examine > >> > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > >> > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing > >in > >> > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > >> > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > >> > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand > >the > >> > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if > >you > >> > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > >> > astrologer in the consumer forum. > >> > > >> > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > >> > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > >> > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > >religious > >> > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, > >Moon, > >> > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only > >sages > >> > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > >> > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to > >predict > >> > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called > >grabbing > >> > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > >> > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > >> > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations > >etc. > >> > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is > >still > >> > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > >everybody > >> > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, > >it > >> > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate > >of > >> > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the > >fate of > >> > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > >> > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of > >sages > >> > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > >principles > >> > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > >> > > >> > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > >percolated > >> > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > >> > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > >> > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western > >system. > >> > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > >> > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > >> > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > >> > past event very precisely within some astrological principle > >within a > >> > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > >> > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > >astrological > >> > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > >> > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may > >come > >> > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > >> > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > >> > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > >> > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find > >that > >> > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > >> > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. > >But > >> > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the > >level > >> > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > >> > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > >> > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > >> > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > >> > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > >following > >> > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in > >subpara). > >> > > >> > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > >> > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > >> > > >> > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > >> > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > >> > > >> > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > >> > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of > >each > >> > other) ? > >> > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > >> > nector after sea-churning……….. > >> > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, > >quarter > >> > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on > >seventh > >> > house) ? > >> > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > >> > > >> > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted > >and > >> > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > >> > sign) ? > >> > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > >> > day is more in comparison to night…… > >> > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub > >of > >> > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus > >(a > >> > small planet) has 20 years ? > >> > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > >> > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > >> > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations > >between > >> > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > >> > > >> > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > >> > > >> > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > >> > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > >> > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the > >structure > >> > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > >> > > >> > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > >> > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > >> > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 > >deg. > >> > apart? > >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > >> > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > >> > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > >> > > >> > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > >> > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > >> > answers to these questions then he will realize that entire > >> > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > >> > Universe. > >> > > >> > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > >> > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > >> > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > >> > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > >> > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > >> > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is > >beyond > >> > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > >> > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > >> > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > >astrology > >> > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > >> > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > >> > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > >> > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > >> > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view > >of > >> > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept > >of > >> > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > >> > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > >astrology " Jyotish - > >> > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains > >the > >> > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the > >basis > >> > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > >> > formulate these principles. This book was also published in > >English > >> > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). The > >book is > >> > being marketed in USA /UK etc. > >> > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > >produktID=1759836 > >> > > >> > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% > >20kumar% > >> > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > >> > > >> > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > >> > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > >> > > >> > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor > >they > >> > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence > >of > >> > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the > >concept > >> > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was > >mentioned in > >> > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > >> > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But > >nobody > >> > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when > >Sun, > >> > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively > >on > >> > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and > >Ketu > >> > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- > >1988 ( > >> > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > >> > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > >> > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 > >deg. > >> > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at > >76.49 > >> > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > >> > deg. away). > >> > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > >> > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at > >the > >> > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > >> > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of > >myth). > >> > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > >> > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But > >As > >> > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 > >and 3- > >> > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full > >solar > >> > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > >> > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar > >eclipses > >> > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 > >degree > >> > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > >> > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. > >Thus > >> > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. > >All > >> > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > >> > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want > >then I > >> > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting > >them. > >> > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but > >in > >> > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > >> > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > >> > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) > >played an > >> > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to > >immense > >> > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology > >appears to > >> > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also > >agree > >> > with the above observation after going through my original > >> > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as > >was > >> > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to > >do > >> > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > >> > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that > >pre- > >> > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even > >then > >> > all attached happening will automatically change creating a > >cascading > >> > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > >> > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > >> > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every > >Tom, > >> > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good > >deed > >> > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. > >You > >> > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > >> > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can > >never > >> > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > >> > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > >> > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > >prewritten) > >> > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > >> > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered > >but > >> > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > >> > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > >> > planets? > >> > > >> > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured > >that > >> > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > >astronomy > >> > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > >> > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > >correct. > >> > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. > >Still if > >> > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > >> > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > >> > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > >> > website is jref@ <jref%40randi.org> and > >http://www.randi.orgBecause modern > >> > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > >> > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > >> > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort > >of > >> > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > >> > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > >> > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > >> > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > >> > Universe, solar system. > >> > > >> > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and facts, data > >> > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to join > >hands > >> > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). > >> > Sanat Kumar Jain > >> > Think differently, Think logically and Think scientifically > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >--- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 27, 2008 Report Share Posted July 27, 2008 Hi Sanat, I respond to the extracted part of your message where you say: 'So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must find out the procedure as to how all basic principles were formulated and is their any scientific logic (in view of modern knowledge) or not.' Now this is a most scientific approach you have taken!! You have obviously already taken the stance that Mr Khullar's work is bogus or you would not say 'falling into another trap by Khullar'. I have serious doubts that you have studied his work at all, never mind being intimately aquatinted with it. So your unfounded prejudice for a scientific observer is obvious for all to see, and is clearly hypocritical if you have not studied the subject. I think most would agree your approach here at least is MOST UNSCIENTIFIC. For your information the Khullar system is by far the most scientific of all astrology I have come across. Mr Khullar examined in detail both Western and Hindu astrology. He took much from the traditions of the Hindus, and from Nadi astrology. He went right to the source of their ideas and worked out exactly why they were quoting certain important slokas. He then incorporated these ideas into a major advancement on the KP system using cuspal interlinks. I personally gave up believing authors have all (or even) some of the answers all of the time, so I thoroughly check everything stated. If I find a system not working as stated even once I start having reservations. When I see it doesn't work quite a few times I discard it. I have not been able to do this with the Khullar system because it does work. Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful about the system. Here was an author who used a specific house system. specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions, a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me eager see why they were successful. I think any experienced astrologer would agree that even if you ask a number of astrologers - all following the same system - to assess or predict for an event they will invariably all come up with a different answer. This does not happen in KCIL because all charts are rectified by strict criteria, and invariably all students come up with the same rectified chart. They all assess the event to get the same answer because the cuspal interlinks are specific to the chart and the rules are clearly laid down. This is extremely scientific astrology. Apart from success in Blind Charts there has been extremely good predictions ie births to the day and a narrow time frame. Also one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw that she was likely to die the following day even though she had no known problems. He packed his family into the car and went long distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared fine, but the following day she died as indicated. How many astrologers using other systems would be sufficiently confident to do this? We have seen other things which validate the system, such as Mr Khullar declaring that a certain person could not have been born in a certain part of city because the events of the life and family connections did not line up in regard to the relevant house cusps. He then stated where the person was likely to have been born. Checking with the native the position chosen was almost spot on. There are many other reasons that indicate that the system does work. So Sanat, first study this system in detail then pronounce on it, that is the truly scientific way. Your opinion may then carry some weight but until then it is difficult for anyone to take your opinions (at least on this matter) seriously. Ron Gaunt On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:13:14 -0000, you wrote: >Dear Ron, >Welcome in the forum for your first msg. >You have good knowledge of astrology, still you are not convinced >with any system and advocating an another Khullar system. I am >reproducing your stand > >>>>>>>>Again most do not realise that it is possible to see anything >and everything you want to see after the event with ANY and EVERY >system, due to the enormous number of permutations. >I think I have looked at just about every astrological system and >method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, and others >do not give consistently good results. <<<<<<<<<<< > >against you. Because it makes no difference as to whether we are >linking any past event with some principles or we are linking future >prediction with our psychology. If I will say your next month is not >good and you have faith on predictive astrology, then every >psychological odd in next month will be linked with this prediction >and in sub-conscious mind you may bent upon to think that astrology >is correct. So it has no relevancy at all. > >We in India are being befooled and cheated by astrologers since 2000 >years without knowing that sign was devised by Greeks and adopted by >us without any religious support. Because mass population always >remains uneducated and educated lot are being lured by crowd of heads >on shoulders (without knowing that their heads are empty in this >respect) who follows some traditions. Cunning or ignorant astrologers >after reading some latest books on astrology, full with praise of >sages and latest data of solar system thinks (and propagate) that our >sages were well known with modern data. Thus they are able to befool >ignorant public in the name of Ved, Sage, Myth and so on with the >help of Media and publicity. > >Bare fact is this that our sages were very logical and open to all >sort of logical knowledge (which can not be questioned). They were >very clear when they appreciate the knowledge of Greeks because they >were of the opinion " tamso ma jyotirgamay " means we must go ahead >towards knowledge from ignorance. For the purpose of knowledge they >were following " Vasudevam kutumbkam " means whole world is a family. >Thus they adopted sign system and other knowledge from Greeks and >mixed it with our constellational system and religious concept of >formation of universe. Thus our sages formulated basic principles >like sign lord, aspect, friendship, exalted, dasha and so on (refer >my book in Hindi or in English for detailed procedure etc.), by which >they were able to forecast some thing which happens to be true >(psychologically, and this phenomena was not known till 18th >century). Thus Greeks then Romans adopted these principles and >subsequently slightly modified (aspect) as Western system, whereas >sign lord etc are same. As we Indians are not aware that concept of >sign belongs to Greek / Babylonia likewise Western countries are not >aware that sign lord etc. principles were formulated by our sages on >the basis of religious myth that Earth is stationary, Sun is nearer >then Moon, all constellation are just above Moon and so on. In this >way where we Indians are being befooled in the name of Ved, sages; >likewise western countries were being befooled that predictive >principals were formulated by Ptolemy and now everyone is after >socalled " Vedic astrology " without knowing that there is no >predictive astrology in Ved. Thus predictive astrology is merely a >psychological game like magic. We must enjoy this game but must not >be lured like a fool who may be lured by creation of currency notes >from a box by a magician and left his job in the hope to create note >from that box. > >So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must find >out the procedure as to how all basic principles were formulated and >is their any scientific logic (in view of modern knowledge) or not. > >Some points were discussed in brief (refer SOA_______ files in file >section) because followers of astrology, could not stand after >raising very simple arguments and further discussion could not be >done. I hope that after +35 years of experience you may like to >discuss on any point. > >Thanks, >Yours truly, >Sanat > >PS: Sh. Razdan Ji, Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji may please >come forward with reply on my comments. Silence is not a solution. >Silently reading is also not a solution. When we are in a forum then >either we must educate other members or may improve our knowledge. >Remaining " as it is " is not a good sign. For improvement we must have >inquisitive mind. I am ready to learn from expert astrologers but not >as blind supporter. If Astrology is science then it must cross all >questions and must have logical answers to all sort of doubt. > > > > > , " rongaunt au " ><rongaunt wrote: >> >> >> Friends, >> >> I am new to the forum, but have a fair knowledge of astrology as >> it has been my hobby for over 35 years. I am all for >> questioning the validity of the subject, as I suspect that many >> many astrologers, are very gullible because they have not >> studied deeply enough to realise that the permutations in >> astrology run into the millions. Again most do not realise that >> it is possible to see anything and everything you want to see >> after the event with ANY and EVERY system, due to the enormous >> number of permutations. And f course, very few if any, go on to >> achieve good predictions. >> >> I think I have looked at just about every astrological system and >> method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, and >> others do not give consistently good results. It has been my aim >> to find one that does work, and to this end I started possibly >> the first of the regulat Blind Charts tests on the Web many years >> ago. I hoped to find a system that really did work. It is >> only in the last year or so that I have found such a system, >> which drew my attention because the students of a particular >> astrological institution kept getting correct results in our >> Blind Chart tests. The system is the Khullar method of Cuspal >> Interlinks. >> >> Anyhow my intention in writing this mail was to point out that it >> is not very practical to furnish personal data and then predict >> from it, because the waiting time for the prediction means >> everyone will lose interest long before the event does or does >> not happen. It would be much better to get members to furnish >> data, to include some events and family birthdates in order to be >> able to rectify the chart, and give say four options which >> participants will check to find out which of these options >> happened on a given date. This is real life astrology and is >> almost as good as future prediction, because you use exactly the >> same methods on an unknown event. >> >> >> Ron Gaunt >> >> >> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:44:09 -0000, you wrote: >> >> >Shri Jagannathan Kapisthalamji, >> >Namaskar! >> ><If you can furnish your date of birth,place and time of birth let >us >> >try some astrological predictions and see whether they work.?> >> > >> >My late maternal grandfather used to make predictions from >horoscopes >> >prepared from Grahalaghava panchangas, which were anything but >> >correct, and that was admitted by the Panchanga makers >themselves! >> >Quite often his predictions proved correct! >> > >> >Does that prove that any predictive gimmicks are either scientific >or >> >Vedic? No. That cannot be so, since Grahalaghava was/is neither a >> >Vedic work nor a scientific one! >> > >> >Thus even if some astrologers are able to make some correct >> >predictions about some one sometimes, that never means/proves that >> >those predictions were either on a scientific basis or as per the >> >Vedic lore! All that proves is that sometimes some guess works do >> >prove correct and that is why more often than not, correct >preictions >> >are made only from incorrect data, whether birth particulars or >> >astronomical data, since Lahiri Ayanamsha in itself is the most >> >monstrous ayanamsha that could ever have been invented by any >> >charlatan!! And it is on the basis of only that ayanamsha that >ninety- >> >nine per cent predictions are made these days! >> >With regards, >> >A K Kaul >> > >> > , " Jagannathan >Kapisthalam " >> ><jagannathankr@> wrote: >> >> >> >> Dear Sir, >> >> Your article is quite interesting.If you can furnish your date of >> >> birth,place and time of birth let us try some astrological >> >predictions and >> >> see whether they work.?This is only out of academic interest. >> >> Regards, >> >> jagannathan. >> >> >> >> On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > Resp. members, >> >> > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of discussion >on >> >> > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am enclosing my >old >> >> > blog placed in the file section so that members may read it and >> >> > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not reacting >> >with a >> >> > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though they are >> >> > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can interact >on >> >my >> >> > email sanatkumar_jain@ <sanatkumar_jain%40rediffmail.com> >> >> > >> >> > So far members have observed that supporters of astrology are >> >either >> >> > interested in by passing the main point or they have only >faith on >> >> > astrology without any scientific or logical support to any >> >concept. >> >> > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others to >follow >> >the >> >> > path of ignorance. >> >> > >> >> > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am always >> >interested >> >> > in looking deep. >> >> > >> >> > Thanks >> >> > Sanat >> >> > >> >> > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH >> >> > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some >> >> > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied >in >> >depth >> >> > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like >> >this. So >> >> > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to >> >whether >> >> > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science >due >> >to >> >> > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of >> >> > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only >want to >> >> > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us >> >examine >> >> > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you >have >> >> > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are >standing >> >in >> >> > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been >> >> > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a >> >> > science without knowing the story of other side. I can >understand >> >the >> >> > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but >if >> >you >> >> > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or >call an >> >> > astrologer in the consumer forum. >> >> > >> >> > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early >> >> > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has >> >> > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This >> >religious >> >> > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, >> >Moon, >> >> > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only >> >sages >> >> > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after >> >> > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to >> >predict >> >> > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called >> >grabbing >> >> > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. >> >> > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its >> >> > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer >donations >> >etc. >> >> > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is >> >still >> >> > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of >> >everybody >> >> > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this >situation, >> >it >> >> > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the >fate >> >of >> >> > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the >> >fate of >> >> > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various >> >> > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of >> >sages >> >> > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These >> >principles >> >> > were the key factors for deciding the fate. >> >> > >> >> > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never >> >percolated >> >> > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to >learn >> >> > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles >were >> >> > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western >> >system. >> >> > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group >> >> > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due >to >> >> > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to >fit >> >> > past event very precisely within some astrological principle >> >within a >> >> > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith >etc., >> >> > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because >> >astrological >> >> > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical >> >> > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) >may >> >come >> >> > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start >self >> >> > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on >other >> >> > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only >mislead, >> >> > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can >find >> >that >> >> > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say >> >> > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against >astrology. >> >But >> >> > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the >> >level >> >> > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed >> >> > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was >> >> > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, >> >> > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary >> >> > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then >> >following >> >> > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in >> >subpara). >> >> > >> >> > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven >> >> > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? >> >> > >> >> > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the >stationary >> >> > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. >> >> > >> >> > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and >> >> > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy >of >> >each >> >> > other) ? >> >> > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons >over >> >> > nector after sea-churning……….. >> >> > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, >> >quarter >> >> > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on >> >seventh >> >> > house) ? >> >> > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. >> >> > >> >> > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are >exalted >> >and >> >> > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of >Aries >> >> > sign) ? >> >> > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of >the >> >> > day is more in comparison to night…… >> >> > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and >hub >> >of >> >> > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas >Venus >> >(a >> >> > small planet) has 20 years ? >> >> > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of >> >> > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. >> >> > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations >> >between >> >> > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? >> >> > >> >> > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. >> >> > >> >> > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week >> >> > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? >> >> > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the >> >structure >> >> > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. >> >> > >> >> > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion >of >> >> > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. >> >> > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 >> >deg. >> >> > apart? >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. >> >> > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? >> >> > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. >> >> > >> >> > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as >to >> >> > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave >> >> > answers to these questions then he will realize that entire >> >> > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of >> >> > Universe. >> >> > >> >> > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then >> >> > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by >sage >> >> > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the >> >> > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in >all >> >> > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any >old >> >> > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is >> >beyond >> >> > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and >Moon. >> >> > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles >are >> >> > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying >> >astrology >> >> > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct >> >> > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same >combination is >> >> > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically >and >> >> > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive >concept >> >> > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in >view >> >of >> >> > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive >concept >> >of >> >> > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. >> >> > After lot of research I wrote an original book on >> >astrology " Jyotish - >> >> > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book >contains >> >the >> >> > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on >the >> >basis >> >> > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our >sages to >> >> > formulate these principles. This book was also published in >> >English >> >> > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). The >> >book is >> >> > being marketed in USA /UK etc. >> >> > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? >> >produktID=1759836 >> >> > >> >> > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% >> >20kumar% >> >> > 20jain & TAG= & CID= >> >> > >> >> > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? >> >> > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t >> >> > >> >> > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune >nor >> >they >> >> > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to >presence >> >of >> >> > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the >> >concept >> >> > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was >> >mentioned in >> >> > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came >within 14 >> >> > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But >> >nobody >> >> > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse >when >> >Sun, >> >> > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree >respectively >> >on >> >> > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon >and >> >Ketu >> >> > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- >> >1988 ( >> >> > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar >eclipses >> >> > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more >then >> >> > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at >79.04 >> >deg. >> >> > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at >> >76.49 >> >> > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was >15.14 >> >> > deg. away). >> >> > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will >also >> >> > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred >at >> >the >> >> > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was >not >> >> > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of >> >myth). >> >> > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when >Moon >> >> > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. >But >> >As >> >> > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 >> >and 3- >> >> > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full >> >solar >> >> > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree >> >> > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar >> >eclipses >> >> > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 >> >degree >> >> > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may >possible. >> >> > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in >almanac. >> >Thus >> >> > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees >respectively. >> >All >> >> > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this >fundamental >> >> > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want >> >then I >> >> > can give many more examples and very simple method of >detecting >> >them. >> >> > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science >but >> >in >> >> > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + >> >> > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology >> >> > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) >> >played an >> >> > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to >> >immense >> >> > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology >> >appears to >> >> > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also >> >agree >> >> > with the above observation after going through my original >> >> > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided >as >> >was >> >> > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try >to >> >do >> >> > some thing, because every thing will take place according to >pre- >> >> > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying >that >> >pre- >> >> > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, >even >> >then >> >> > all attached happening will automatically change creating a >> >cascading >> >> > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every >> >> > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say >pre- >> >> > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when >every >> >Tom, >> >> > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good >> >deed >> >> > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under >change. >> >You >> >> > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical >> >> > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can >> >never >> >> > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be >> >> > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is >also >> >> > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever >> >prewritten) >> >> > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because >in >> >> > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be >altered >> >but >> >> > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction >can be >> >> > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of >> >> > planets? >> >> > >> >> > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest >assured >> >that >> >> > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only >> >astronomy >> >> > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used >> >> > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears >> >correct. >> >> > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. >> >Still if >> >> > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The >James >> >> > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to >> >> > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and >> >> > website is jref@ <jref%40randi.org> and >> >http://www.randi.orgBecause modern >> >> > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used >to >> >> > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested >business >> >> > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this >sort >> >of >> >> > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this >regard >> >> > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology >> >> > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate >> >> > principles was neither logical nor based on correct >information of >> >> > Universe, solar system. >> >> > >> >> > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and facts, >data >> >> > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to join >> >hands >> >> > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). >> >> > Sanat Kumar Jain >> >> > Think differently, Think logically and Think scientifically >> >> > >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >> > >> > >> > >> >--- >> > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 28, 2008 Report Share Posted July 28, 2008 HinduCalendar , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved wrote: Shri Sunil Bhattacharjyaji, Namaskar! <Will you not kindly like to do plain elaboration of this " plain speaking " for the ready reference.> This has already been explained hundreds of times! Pl. see BVB6, Rashi5, npj, PAC3, ramanji etc. etc. documents! < How do you say so even when there are the 162 verses of Jyotisha in Atharva veda? > You have been requested several times to quote the exact references from the Atharva Veda but every time you repeat the same statement " there are the 162 verses of Jyotisha in Atharva veda " without giving the exact chapter and verse! <Finally Avtarji, Manu, the law-giver, asked only the Vanaprasthis to abstain from practising astrology. If Manu has not denied practice of astrology by the other ashramis why do you want to ammend Manu's laws?> Has the Manu advised anywhere anybody to consult a nakshatra-jeevi as he has advised several other dos and donts? If not, how do you presume that the Manu has not forbidden it? Manu has not forbidden several things for anybody, like adultery for a Vanparasthi! Does it mean that a vanaparasthi can commit the same? It appears you have not the read the Mahabharata either, leave alone the Yogavasishtha Maharamayana, though you are insisting on " Brahama-Rashi " in the former work! If you had read it from cover to cover, you would have been the last person to advocate astrolatory! <Varahamihira says that Greeks learnt astrology and became experts> HOw could anybody learn astrolatory from India when India did not have any planetary astronomy in any of the indigenous astronomical works prior to the Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha? Vaahamihira's Brihat Jatakam is a ditto copy of Sphujidwaja's Yavanajatakam---all the moles and warts---like the names of planets, signs, kendras, panapharas, dreshkanas and what not! It is not the other way round! And still you want us to believe that the Greeks learnt predictive gimmicks from India and it was not the other way round! < If these Greeks, who are learned in astrology are adorable how much (more) adorable a brahmin (with knowledge of the shastras as well as of astrology) would be.> Just go through the Mahabharata from cover to cover and you will learn as to how " adorable " nakshatra-jeevis are/were in India! Varahamihira called yavanas as Rishis because they were nakshatra- jeevis whereas the Mahabharata calls Brahmins as chanadalas if they are nakshatra-soochis! But our " Vedic astrologers " would like to believe Varahamihira than Bhishma-Pitamaha or Vasishtha Rishi, since they have pawned everything, includign their conscience, to overseas Vamadevas and fake Parasharas! <Is it not just your assumption or because Pingree said that Indians learned astrology from the Greeks? Do you know that the title of the 2nd century book of Ptolemy (Claudius) was " Collections---- " . As he was the head of the Alexandria museum (and library) he had access to all the astrology books, which the Greeks took from India.> What has Pingree to do with all this? You presume that Greeks collected all the phalita jyotisha books from India in second century when we could never have any rashi-based indigenous astrological works prior to the advent of the Surya Sidhanta! Why are you putting the cart before the horse? The million dollar question is, even if we presume that we had all the planetary astronomical works, how on earth could chalraltans like Varahamihira have made accurate predictions from such monstrous astronomical data? But then, I forget that " Vedic astrologers " can make corret predictions only from incorrect data! Witness " Notable Horoscopes " by the " greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth century " Dhanyavad. AKK HinduCalendar , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote: > > Shri Avtarji, > > Namaste, > > <<< > Because there is a direct conflict between the hoax called Vedic > > astrology--- the Lahiri nirayana mess actually!--- and the real > > Vedic/Hindu calendar! After all, somebody has to do plain speaking > > and call a spade a spade! >>>>> > > Will you not kindly like to do plain elaboration of this " plain speaking " for the ready reference. > > > <<< Wht is a fact? Jyotish being called a Vedanga or my not liking it? > > If it is the former I agree with you that Jyotish is a Vedanga, but > > jyotish in the sense of deciding proper timings for Vedic rituals is > > a Vedanga whereas predictive gimmicks are a hoax being played on the > > Vedas in the name of the Vedanga Jyotisha! As such, it is clear that > > any hoax being played by anybody has to be exposed and not " liked " ! >>> > > How do you say so even when there are the 162 verses of Jyotisha in Atharva veda? Is it not just your assumption or because Pingree said that Indians learned astrology from the Greeks? Do you know that the title of the 2nd century book of Ptolemy (Claudius) was " Collections-- -- " . As he was the head of the Alexandria museum (and library) he had access to all the astrology books, which the Greeks took from India. Varahamihira says that Greeks learnt astrology and became experts. If these Greeks, who are learned in astrology are adorable how much (more) adorable a brahmin (with knowledge of the shastras as well as of astrology) would be. > > <<< > Already explained above in first para! >>> > > Did you explain? I see only your assertion and no explanation. > > Finally Avtarji, Manu, the law-giver, asked only the Vanaprasthis to abstain from practising astrology. If Manu has not denied practice of astrology by the other ashramis why do you want to ammend Manu's laws? > > Regards, > > skb > > > --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> wrote: > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Astrology a science or myth > hinducalendar > Sunday, July 27, 2008, 1:48 AM > > > > > Vedic Astrology- Hyderabad@ . com, " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > > <jyotirved@ ..> wrote: > > > > Shri Chandrashekharji, > > Namaskar! > > <If you are so certain that Vedic astrology is a hoax, why do you > > want to convince others that it has nothing to do with Vedas?> > > > > Because there is a direct conflict between the hoax called Vedic > > astrology--- the Lahiri nirayana mess actually!--- and the real > > Vedic/Hindu calendar! After all, somebody has to do plain speaking > > and call a spade a spade! > > > > <Jyotish is called Vedanga whether you like it or not and that is a > > fact.> > > Wht is a fact? Jyotish being called a Vedanga or my not liking it? > > If it is the former I agree with you that Jyotish is a Vedanga, but > > jyotish in the sense of deciding proper timings for Vedic rituals is > > a Vedanga whereas predictive gimmicks are a hoax being played on the > > Vedas in the name of the Vedanga Jyotisha! As such, it is clear that > > any hoax being played by anybody has to be exposed and not " liked " ! > > > > <Talking about astrologers gimmicks, as you call predictive > > astrology, as disrespect to Vedic seer and in the same breath saying > > that Jyotish has noting to do with Vedas as Mesha and grahas are not > > mentioned in Vedas is contradictory to say the least.> > > > > If someone attributes statements to seers which they never made, that > > is the real disrepsect and in that sense " Vedic astrologers " are the > > real culprits since they are showing the greatest disrepsect to the > > real Vamadevas and Parasharas on the behest of some overseas > > Vamadevas and fake Parasharas that the Vedic seers advocated > > predictive gimmicks on the basis of Mesha etc. rashis--and that also > > the Lahiri mess!--- and Mangal, Shani etc. planets! > > > > <Your one point agenda seems to be to > > criticize astrology practiced in India, for reasons best know to you.> > > > > Already explained above in first para! > > > > <I do not find you now a days claiming to be president/chairman of > > calendar reforms committee (formed in 1957) that you used to do, > > earlier on other jyotish lists, despite of the fact that that > > committee was disolved long before and it never mentioned you as its > > president/chairman or even member.> > > > > You appear to be in a hurry to make allegations/ insinuations which > > you cannot prove/substantiate at all! Pl. quote even a single > > statement from my side wherein I have said that I was the > > President/Chairman of the Calendar Reform Committee formed in 1957 > > by the Govt. of India. Since you cannot do so, you will have to > > tender an unconditional apology for such allegations. > > > > <I remember that > > when I asked about this anomaly on one list you disappeared from the > > list.> > > Normally, I go by the edict of the Gita---dharmyad hiyudhach- chreyao > > nanyat kshatriyasya vidyate (hough I am not a Kshatirya by caste, but > > according to me it is the dharma of every Vedic Hindu to fight for > > the real Vedic dharma!)---- and therefore, believe in replying every > > post especially if it is critical of my views! As such, either > > that " list " must have banned me---like the " world famous " group of > > Vedic-astrology or " Hinduism-environme nt " or " Om- > > namah-shivaya " etc. etc. or that group must be " moderated " for posts > > which just did/does not let my reply to your points appear there > > since Truth hurts such groups, > > > > < I would never have mentioned all this but your approach of abusing > > astrology as a science makes me take this step so that the member on > > the list understand the facts> > > > > Again, it appears that without having read even the Report of Meghnad > > Saha Calendar Reform Committee of 1957, you are making a fool of > > yourself by trying to ascribe statements to that committee that it > > had prasied astrology! Here is what that committe had said in its > > final recommendations on page 12, " He (Dr. Gorakh Prasad) pointed out > > that in the past there had been heroworship and guru-worship and due > > to personal animosity and financial considerations, several anomalies > > crept in. Even today panchanga making was a financial proposition. > > Astrology flourished on the principle, 'remember if it fits, forget > > if it misses " . > > > > Obviouisly, the Saha Calendar Reform Committe has had nothing but > > disgust for predictive gimmicks, but then some people have the habit > > of deliberately turning a blind eye (even deaf ears!) towards the > > facts that hurt their interests--- whether financial or prestige--- > > even if it is at the cost of that very dharma that they claim to > > defend---Vedic dharma in the present case---on the shoulders of non- > > existent Vedic astrology! > > > > <I want to bring certain facts to light about National calendar > > reform Committee.> > > > > I wish you go through the full report of Saha Calendar Reform > > Committee! This is what it has said in the summary, on page 260, > > about the Lahiri nirayana mess > > " This (read Lahiri nirayana mess!) recommendation is to be regarded > > only as a measure of compromise so that we avoid a violent break with > > the established custom (read Grahalaghava/ Lahiri calendar!). But it > > does not make our present seasons in the various months as they were > > in the days of Varahamihira or Kalidasa. It is hoped that at not a > > distant date, further reforms for locating the lunar and solar > > festivals in the seasons in which they were originally observed as > > per the Vedas and other shastras will be adopted " . > > > > This is what it has said further on the same page, " By continuing to > > follow the nirayana (read Lahiri mess) system, the Hindu calendar > > makers are under delusion that they are following the path of > > dharma. They are actualy committing the whole Hindu society to > > Adharma " . > > > > NEEDLESS TO TELL YOU HERE THAT YOU WANT THE ENTIRE HINDU SOCEITY TO > > CONITNUE TO WALLOW IN AHDARMA I.E. LAHIRI NIRAYANA MESS, ON THE > > SHOULDERS OF THE SAME CALENDAR REFORM COMMITTEE THAT YOU ARE QUOTING > > EVEN WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT IT HAS RECOMMENEDED! > > > > Better brush up your knowledge before entering into discussions! > > Dhanyavad! > > AKK > > > > Vedic Astrology- Hyderabad, Chandrashekhar > > <chandrashekhar46@ > wrote: > > > > > > Dear Avatar Krishen Saheb, > > > > > > If you are so certain that Vedic astrology is a hoax, why do you > > want to > > > convince others that it has nothing to do with Vedas? Jyotish is > > called > > > Vedanga whether you like it or not and that is a fact. Talking > > about > > > astrologers gimmicks, as you call predictive astrology, as > > disrespect to > > > Vedic seer and in the same breath saying that Jyotish has noting to > > do > > > with Vedas as Mesha and grahas are not mentioned in Vedas is > > > contradictory to say the least. Your one point agenda seems to be > > to > > > criticize astrology practiced in India, for reasons best know to > > you. > > > > > > I do not find you now a days claiming to be president/chairman of > > > calendar reforms committee (formed in 1957) that you used to do, > > earlier > > > on other jyotish lists, despite of the fact that that committee was > > > disolved long before and it never mentioned you as its > > > president/chairman or even member. May be members on this do not of > > your > > > claim but I have read you saying this on many lists. I remember > > that > > > when I asked about this anomaly on one list you disappeared from > > the > > > list. So for the benefit of members I want to bring certain facts > > to > > > light about National calendar reform Committee. > > > > > > It was Meghnad Saha who was the chairman of that committee, other > > > members being A. C. Banerjee, K. K. Daftari, J. S. Karandikar, > > Gorakh > > > Prasad, R. V. Vaidya and N. C. Lahiri. Your name does not appear on > > the > > > Vigyan prasar.gov.in site. I would not have mentioned this but it > > seems > > > that your sole agenda is to call names to the divine science and > > try to > > > prove that even the dates of observation of various rituals are > > wrong. > > > > > > I wish to paste a link that gives information about the original > > > Calendar reform committee. I am sure the learned will draw their > > own > > > inference about the rationale or otherwise of your various > > arguments. > > > 1) http://www.vigyanpr asar.gov. in/scientists/ saha/sahanew. htm > > > 2) http://www.packolka ta.org/history. html > > > > > > I would never have mentioned all this but your approach of abusing > > > astrology as a science makes me take this step so that the member > > on the > > > list understand the facts. > > > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > <scienceofas trology%40g roups.com> , " Avtar Krishen > > Kaul " > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > Dear Razdan Sahib, > > > > Namaskar! > > > > Many thanks for your detailed reply! > > > > > > > > Let me try to analyze some of your points vis-a-vis the facts: > > > > <I have however interest in Vedic Astrology and have been > > studying it > > > > for the last eight years.> > > > > > > > > The alpha and omega of " Vedic astrology " are Mesha, Vrisha etc. > > > > rashis and all the seven planets besides Rahu and Kethu! > > Ironically, > > > > the Rashis---all the twelve of them---are conspicuous by their > > > > absence from the Vedas, Upanishadas, Brahmanas etc. etc. And so > > are > > > > the most dreaded planets like Mangal, Shani etc. There is no > > mention > > > > of Rahu but some reference to Swarbhanu whereas Kethu is referred > > to > > > > in the sense of " dhoomaketu " > > > > > > > > As such, to call any predictive gimmicks as Vedic astrology is to > > do > > > > great injustice to our Vedic Seers! > > > > > > > > < I felt that we Indians donot take our old scriptures > > seriously... > > > > > > > > > Could you kindly quote any scripture that has advised us to run > > after > > > > jyotishis in order to find out as to whether Lalu or Kalu will be > > the > > > > PM or " whether I will recover from my heart attack " ? To the best > > of > > > > my knowlege all our scriptures advise us > > > > " uttishthatai jagrata prapya varan nibodhata " . As such, to say > > that > > > > we are not taking our " jyotish scriptures " seriously is a patent > > lie > > > > since there are no scriptures that advise us to prctise predictive > > > > gimmicks! > > > > > > > > <while westerners not only study these but promote these and try > > to > > > > bring them on the so called scientific field.> > > > > > > > > Westerners are mercenaries! They are not promoting our scriptures > > > > but their own christianity! If they are interested in " Vedic > > > > astrology " it is only because they are milking a cow that has > > golden > > > > udders! Can you imagine as to how foolish we are when we believe > > the > > > > Western charlatans that they are promoting " Vedic astrology " when > > > > none of our scriptures has advised us to believe in any predictive > > > > gimmicks, at least the Rashi based ones! > > > > > > > > <My own opinion is that there is no need to find any proof for > > Vedic > > > > Astrology as a predictive tool> > > > > > > > > Does such an opinion have any value either logically or > > > > scientifically? Such opinions can be called " wishful thinking " or > > at > > > > best an illusion/hallucinat ion of the highest order! > > > > > > > > <.( It is called Vedic to differentiate it from Western Astrology, > > > > Chinese Astrology etc and therefore there is nothing wrong in > > calling > > > > it so) > > > > > Why call it Vedic? Why not call it " Indian " or " Hindu " > > or " nirayana " > > > > and so on? As aleady explained, to call any predictive gimmicks > > > > as " Vedic " is to exhibit our ignorance of our Vedic knowledge to > > the > > > > whole world from housetops! It is politicians who tell such lies > > > > like attributing certain qualties to some " item " which that " item " > > > > does not possess! Real Vedic scholas never do so! > > > > > > > > <Do we need a proof for what Lord Krishna says in Bhagwat Gita.> > > > > > > > > No, we do not need any proofs for the same! But then the same Lord > > > > Krishna has never advised us to consult some soothsayer! Why are > > you > > > > forgetting the world famous sholka of the same Gita > > > > " karmanyeva adhikaraste ma phaleshu kadachana > > > > ma karma phala hetur bhoo ma te sango astu akarmani " > > > > > > > > Then again, when Arjuna tells Lord Krishna, as per the same Gita > > that > > > > you are quoting as an authority, > > > > " I do not know who will win the war " Lord Krishna did not advise > > > > Arjuna to consult some Jyotishsi to find out an answer to that > > > > question! On the other hand, He said to Arjuna in quite unambguous > > > > words, > > > > " If you get killed you will go to the heavens and if you win the > > war > > > > yo will be the master of the whole globe " > > > > > > > > Why are we, who call ourselves Krishna Bhaktas and Vedic Hindus, > > > > going against the dictum of the same Lord Krishna but following > > the > > > > dictum of some overseas Vamadeva and local " Parashara " etc. who > > are > > > > makinng a fool of us? > > > > > > > > <For example Parashara says that for a person to be good > > astrologist, > > > > he needs to be a Sanskari, a man imbued with faith on Dharma > > living a > > > > pure and austere life and having superior drishti ( some sort of > > > > sixth sense, some jyotishis of Kashmir had).> > > > > > > > > By Parashara, you mean Brihat Parashariwala Paashara! It appears > > you > > > > have not read any of my posts, where in it has been proved > > > > consclusively that the Parasharis galore that are floating around > > are > > > > not by Parashara the father of Krishna Dvaipayana Veda-Vyasa but > > some > > > > fake Parashara, maybe even several fake " Parasharas " . This has > > been > > > > demonstrated by Pt. S. B. Dikshit in his " Bharatiya Jyotish " and > > by > > > > Sitaram Jha in his original " Parasharai " published originally > > about > > > > seventy years back by Master Khelari Lal and Sons, Varanasi, which > > > > was later translated by R. Santhanam into English! However, > > > > Santhanam/publisher s completely omitted the orignal words of > > Sitaram > > > > Jha that he had collected the (so called) Parashari from different > > > > sources and thus there was no guarantee that the work was really > > by > > > > Maharshi Parashara! > > > > > > > > All these Parasharis are like " Ravana Samhita " and " Brighu > > Samhita " --- > > > > master concoctios and nothing else! > > > > > > > > <For example we know very little about the use of divisional > > charts > > > > and it is possible we miss a lot of information from this lack of > > > > knowledge.> > > > > > > > > All these divisional charts and at least thirty-six types of Dasha > > > > Bhuktis and at least half a dozen ayanamshas are irrefutable > > proofs > > > > that " Vedic astrology " is nothing but a fraud that is being made > > more > > > > and more confusing with the passage of everyday so that in such a > > > > labyrinth, nobody tires to question the veracity of their > > statements! > > > > > > > > <what would have been possible with men who could remember several > > > > hundred pages of text easily like modern day computers.> > > > > > > > > Vedanga Jyotisha, the only indigenous astronomical work of about > > 1400 > > > > BCE comprises hardly a hundred shlokas! And that work gives just > > the > > > > methodology of calculating tithi, nakshatra and the months Madhu, > > > > Madhava etc. > > > > > > > > Besides, as already explained hundeds of times, prior to the > > advent > > > > of planetary data from overseas observatories like that of > > Greenwich > > > > and US Naval Observatory etc., India never had any methodology of > > > > calculating correct planetary longitudes! In other words, right > > from > > > > the Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha of second century BCE till > > > > about 1900 AD, India could never calculate horoscopes properly, > > since > > > > the planetary longitudes derived from the Surya Sidhanta or > > Aryabhati > > > > or Sidhanhta Shiromani or Grahalghava or Makaranda etc. etc. were > > > > incorrect by several degrees whatever the ayanamsha used! As such, > > > > to expect that our forefathers/ ancestors made correct predcitions > > is > > > > to live in a fool's paradise! They never had the wherewithall to > > do > > > > so whether by way of astronomy or by way of astrological > > literature > > > > since all the astrologcial jargon is a direct import from > > > > Babylon/Greece! > > > > > > > > <It is fashionable among Hindus to criticise their own faith since > > > > the word Hindu and things associated with it are considered > > primitive > > > > and unscientific> > > > > > > > > I had thrown a challenge to all the astrologers, whether Vedic or > > > > anti-Vedic or non-Vedic to quote even a single sholka from any > > Purana > > > > or Smriti or Itihasa or any other shastra---leave alone the Vedas- > > -- > > > > that has asked us to cosnult some soothsayer before embarking on > > any > > > > plan! I repeat that challenge! > > > > > > > > Since there are no such references, we are becoming a pawn in the > > > > hands of overseas and even local mercenaries who are brainwashing > > us > > > > that we must believe that predictive gimmicks are as per the Hindu > > > > shastras! NO they are not! They are imports from Greece and the > > > > earlier we realize that truth the better for the entire Hindu > > > > community, since it is only such a blind faith in " Veic astrology " > > > > that is compelling us to celebrate all our festivals and muhurtas > > on > > > > wrong days, and thus making us decimate our own Vedic culture by > > our > > > > own foolishness of our faith in " Vedic astrology " ! > > > > The sooner we come out of such a stupor the better! > > > > With regards, > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > <scienceofas trology%40g roups.com> , " pnrazdan " > > <pnrazdan@> > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kaul Sahib, > > > > > Namaskar. Yes, I have read your several posts on the Panchang > > > > > calculations and the detailed elaboration of your views on what > > you > > > > > term as the mistake committed in the calculations. I donot have > > > > > knoweldge on this subject and therefore cannot comment. > > > > > I have however interest in Vedic Astrology and have been > > studying it > > > > > for the last eight years. I developed interest for it while I > > was in > > > > > US after meeting some westerners who are quite knoweldgeble in > > it. I > > > > > felt that we Indians donot take our old scriptures seriously > > while > > > > > westerners not only study these but promote these and try to > > bring > > > > > them on the so called scientific field. Thus Yoga has become a > > > > > household word here in US and a lot has been done for Vedic > > > > Astrology > > > > > by developing the software for chart making, setting up of two > > > > > Associations both in Britain and US etc., notwithstanding the > > spread > > > > > of various quacks who make lot of money in this field. > > > > > > > > > > My own opinion is that there is no need to find any proof for > > Vedic > > > > > Astrology as a predictive tool even though I find enough to > > brand it > > > > > as a science.( It is called Vedic to differentiate it from > > Western > > > > > Astrology, Chinese Astrology etc and therefore there is nothing > > > > wrong > > > > > in calling it so) Do we need a proof for what Lord Krishna says > > in > > > > > Bhagwat Gita. Do we need to prove that Spiritual path is the > > only > > > > way > > > > > to get ultimate bliss. Faith is essential in these things > > because it > > > > > comes from the same class of " people " who gave us the supreme > > > > > knowledge enshrined in vedas, upanishads etc.Faith on past life > > and > > > > > Karmic theory too is essential pre requisite for this. > > > > > Well proving it to be a science looks to me as childish since > > the > > > > > present scientific parameters seem to be primitive to measure > > its > > > > > " scientific " character. For example Parashara says that for a > > person > > > > > to be good astrologist, he needs to be a Sanskari, a man imbued > > with > > > > > faith on Dharma living a pure and austere life and having > > superior > > > > > drishti ( some sort of sixth sense, some jyotishis of Kashmir > > had). > > > > > This is one of the several attributes that a perfect astrologist > > > > needs > > > > > to have while making a successful prediction. Where will this > > > > > attribute come in the long list of variables that we try to > > employ > > > > for > > > > > making a cause-effect relationship following the secintific > > > > > terminology. That is why I say that this sort of scientific form > > > > > y=f(x) will not work in this field. Besides the mathematical > > > > > relationships cannot hold good here because no two persons are > > > > similar > > > > > in this world. Human nature being different, one has to find > > these > > > > > sophistications in each chart, something that we know very > > little > > > > of. > > > > > For example we know very little about the use of divisional > > charts > > > > and > > > > > it is possible we miss a lot of information from this lack of > > > > knowledge. > > > > > Just as Arjuna while tired of hearing Lord Krishna, begs Him of > > a > > > > > practical proof of what He says to him and thereafter Lord > > Krishna > > > > > bestows Arjuna with a new pair of eyes to have divya drishti > > and to > > > > > see his Virat Swarup, similarly we cannot measure the scientific > > > > > nature of VA by the existing science, the calculations of NASA > > etc. > > > > > Several good astrologists make a good analysis and it is not > > > > > difficult to see good and bad from the chart at least like a > > haze. > > > > If > > > > > all this is possible with our little knowledge, what would have > > been > > > > > possible with men who could remember several hundred pages of > > text > > > > > easily like modern day computers.Faculties of men in Kaliyug are > > > > > limited and we are just fiddling with knowledge through our > > limited > > > > > tools.Most importantly, there is self doubt. It is fashionable > > among > > > > > Hindus to criticise their own faith since the word Hindu and > > things > > > > > associated with it are considered primitive and unscientific. > > > > > Regards, > > > > > P.N.Razdan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <scienceofas trology%40g roups.com> , " Avtar Krishen > > Kaul " > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear P. N. Razdan Sahib, > > > > > > Namaskar Mahara! > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding the discussion whether astrology is a science or > > myth, > > > > I > > > > > > am personally of the opinion that astrology is a way of > > making a > > > > > > fool of a common man! How I arrived at such a conclusion, let > > me > > > > > > narrate in brief! > > > > > > As you are aware, I am also from Srinagar, Kashmir. I was > > myself > > > > > > immersed deep in all the " attributes " of astrology right > > > > > > from " Badsharwar " (sade-sati) to " Tekini-milanavuni " (Patri > > > > Milapak) > > > > > > etc. etc. My maternal grandfather, late Shri Nath Ji Shastri > > > > > > (Pajnoo) of Chundapura, Srinagar, Kashmir was a very reputed > > > > > > astrologer, though he never charged any thing from anybody! > > > > Probably > > > > > > you might have heard his name there! > > > > > > > > > > > > I inherited a lot of Sanskrit literature-- -including books on > > > > > > astrology--- -from him, which, unfortunately, got destroyed in > > > > 1990 > > > > > > because of the political disturbances there. > > > > > > > > > > > > You must also be aware that till about 1985 there was only one > > > > > > Janri/Panchang there in Srinagar and that was Vijay-eshwar > > > > > > Jantri/panchang which was being published for the last about > > two > > > > > > centuries. My grandpa was an avid reader of the same in Sharda > > > > > > script. > > > > > > I was under the impression that that was a divine work as > > > > otherwise > > > > > > how could a human being calculate the planetary positions! I > > > > would > > > > > > take every word of the same as gospel truth and read my > > Rashiphal > > > > > > and " amdani-kharch ka naksha " etc. etc. at least fifteen to > > > > twenty > > > > > > times. From there I " graduated " to Brihat Parashari, > > Manasagari, > > > > > > Brihat Jatakam, Sanket Nidhi, Kheta-Kautukam etc. etc. In fact > > > > > > there is perhaps not even a signle book on predictive gimmicks > > > > > > whether in Sanskrit or Urdu or Hindi or English that I have > > not > > > > gone > > > > > > through and tested and tried in day to day life! > > > > > > > > > > > > When quite a few predictions did not come true in spite of the > > > > same > > > > > > having been made as per impeccable jyotisha-shastras, I > > started > > > > > > delving deep into astronomy, both sidhantic and astrophysics! > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding " mundane affairs " i.e. the fate of our " Moj kasheer " > > > > > > (Mother Kashmir) we had nobody else to fall back upon except > > what > > > > > > our Vijayeshwar- wala told us! He was our friend, philospher > > and > > > > > > guide! And unfortunately for the KP community, he let us down > > > > badly > > > > > > becuase during the years 1989 and 1990, when insurgency was at > > > > its > > > > > > hieght in Kashmir, he had repeated/assured in his Jantri that > > > > peace > > > > > > would reign in the valley! AND you are fully aware as to what > > > > type > > > > > > of peace it was---we became refugees in our own motherland and > > > > quite > > > > > > a few KPs were butchered and quite a few Kashmiri ladies raped > > > > and > > > > > > enslaved for lives! > > > > > > And that was the peace that Vijayeshwarwala had predicted > > > > for " Moj > > > > > > Kahseer " ! > > > > > > > > > > > > (That reminds me of the fate of our nighbour, the only Hindu > > > > kingdom > > > > > > of yesteryears, where the erstwhile king--an Incarnation of > > > > Visnhu!-- > > > > > > was murdered by his own son the crown prince since the > > jyotishis > > > > > > there did not allow the King to marry the crown prince to his > > > > sweet > > > > > > heart as their " patri-melapak was not having the requisite > > number > > > > of > > > > > > gunas " !) > > > > > > > > > > > > To add insult to injury, the same Vijayeswhar- wala admitted in > > > > his > > > > > > 1994 or 1995 jantri that till then he was making calculations > > > > > > from " Makaranda " but now he would start doing so from " drik- > > > > > > ganita " ! He had the cheek to say further that till then he was > > > > > > doing the calcuatons from " Makaranda " only because his > > > > competitors > > > > > > i.e. Brahmana Maha-mandal was doing so! > > > > > > > > > > > > Coming to calculations part, Vedic Hindus have never bothered > > > > about > > > > > > predictive gimmicks, at least not the rashi-based ones! As > > such, > > > > > > the very first work of planetary astronomy in India is the > > Surya > > > > > > Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha! Ironically, that is the most > > > > absurd > > > > > > astronomical work that anybody could every produce! Still more > > > > > > inronically, Varahamihira, " the greatest astrologer of the > > last > > > > 1500 > > > > > > years " has praised that very Surya Sidhanta to the skies in > > his > > > > > > Pnahcasidhantika! And Varahamihira is supposed to have made > > > > > > accurate Predictions! Not only Varahamihira, but his son > > > > > > Prithuyashas is also said to have done so and there are quite > > a > > > > few > > > > > > astrological works by both of them! > > > > > > > > > > > > Right from the date of the Surya Sidhanta i.e. about 2nd > > century > > > > > > BCE, till about a hundred years back, all the panchanga- > > makers of > > > > > > India were basing their calculations on either the Surya > > Sidhanta > > > > or > > > > > > Aryabhati or Arya Sidhanta or later on some other Karna- > > grantha > > > > > > which just circumamublated around the Surya Sidhanta! > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words, right from the date of the Surya Sidhanta of > > > > Pancha- > > > > > > sidhantika till about a hundred years back, i.e. till the > > advent > > > > of > > > > > > planetary data from Greenwich and other observatories, we > > never > > > > had > > > > > > a correct panchanga! The planetary positions in the earlier > > > > > > panchangas were wrong by as many as twenty degrees very often! > > > > If > > > > > > you somehow reconciled one error by taking refuge in one > > > > ayanamsha, > > > > > > another error would crop up which was more horrendous than the > > > > one > > > > > > that was removed! > > > > > > > > > > > > And as is common knowledge, horoscopes whether of a common > > man or > > > > a > > > > > > Maharaja, are prepared from panchangas available in the > > market! > > > > > > > > > > > > The million dollar question that arises is that if there were > > no > > > > > > correct panchangas available till about a hundred years back, > > how > > > > on > > > > > > earth could any predictions based on the horscopes prepared > > from > > > > the > > > > > > same be correct! And if someone can make correct predictions > > > > from > > > > > > incorrect data, he is said to be a charlatan! In other wrods, > > > > all > > > > > > the Hindu astrology was " astrology by charlatans, for > > charlatans > > > > and > > > > > > of charlatans " . > > > > > > To crown it all, we call that very astrology now " Vedic > > > > astrology " . > > > > > > " Kudos " to such astrologers, especially, since this " Vedic > > > > (actualy > > > > > > anti-Vedic!) astrology " has made us celebrate all our > > festivals > > > > on > > > > > > wrong days! > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <scienceofas trology%40g roups.com> , " pnrazdan " > > <pnrazdan@> > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sanat, > > > > > > > I have read most of the posts on the group as also your > > latest > > > > > > post > > > > > > > complaining that members are not reacting to your views. > > > > > > > In my opinion, the discussion in this group is one-sided. > > You > > > > as > > > > > > well > > > > > > > as one or two members are obsessed with " proving " that Vedic > > > > > > > astrology is a myth by trying to demolish arguments of all > > > > > > supporters > > > > > > > without any counter facts.Some members also use language of > > > > hatred > > > > > > > and make it almost a tirade against VA. It looks like the > > name > > > > of > > > > > > > this group should have been kept as " Myth of Astrology " > > rather > > > > > > than > > > > > > > Science of Astrology. > > > > > > > I also wanted to elaborate on my views in support of VA but > > > > found > > > > > > no > > > > > > > use since the forum is not open and not evenly placed. I am > > > > sure > > > > > > many > > > > > > > others are feeling like that. > > > > > > > Unless you make the group balanced and improve the quality > > of > > > > > > > discussions, I am afraid, it may not attract members > > > > contributions. > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > P.N.Razdan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <scienceofas trology%40g roups.com> , " Wes Stillwagon " > > > > > > > <wstillwagon1@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <scienceofas trology%40g roups.com> , " sanat2221 " > > > > > > > > <sanatkumar_ jain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Resp. members, > > > > > > > > > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of > > > > discussion > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am > > enclosing > > > > my > > > > > > > old > > > > > > > > > blog placed in the file section so that members may > > read it > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not > > > > reacting > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though > > they > > > > are > > > > > > > > > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can > > > > interact > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > email sanatkumar_jain@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far members have observed that supporters of > > astrology > > > > are > > > > > > > > either > > > > > > > > > interested in by passing the main point or they have > > only > > > > > > faith > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > astrology without any scientific or logical support to > > any > > > > > > > concept. > > > > > > > > > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others > > to > > > > > > follow > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > path of ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am > > always > > > > > > > > interested > > > > > > > > > in looking deep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > Sanat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > > > > > > > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking > > to > > > > some > > > > > > > > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not > > > > studied > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > depth > > > > > > > > > but you only have faith, because you have been informed > > > > like > > > > > > > this. > > > > > > > > So > > > > > > > > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself > > as to > > > > > > > whether > > > > > > > > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of > > > > science > > > > > > due > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the > > sentiments > > > > of > > > > > > > > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I > > only > > > > > > want > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then > > let > > > > us > > > > > > > > examine > > > > > > > > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, > > because > > > > you > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are > > > > > > standing > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has > > > > been > > > > > > > > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that > > astrology > > > > is a > > > > > > > > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can > > > > > > understand > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their > > business > > > > but > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > are a client then you must have right to know the truth > > or > > > > > > call > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological principles > > in > > > > > > early > > > > > > > > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living > > being > > > > has > > > > > > > > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. > > This > > > > > > > > religious > > > > > > > > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet > > > > (Sun, > > > > > > > Moon, > > > > > > > > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those > > days > > > > only > > > > > > > > sages > > > > > > > > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus > > > > after > > > > > > > > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the > > skill > > > > to > > > > > > > > predict > > > > > > > > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so- > > called > > > > > > > grabbing > > > > > > > > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and > > Ketu. > > > > > > > > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and > > > > its > > > > > > > > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer > > > > > > donations > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, > > which > > > > is > > > > > > > still > > > > > > > > > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate > > of > > > > > > > > everybody > > > > > > > > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this > > > > > > situation, > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict > > the > > > > > > fate > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not > > predict > > > > the > > > > > > > fate > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate > > > > > > various > > > > > > > > > astrological principles on the basis of the then > > knowledge > > > > of > > > > > > > sages > > > > > > > > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. > > These > > > > > > > > principles > > > > > > > > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was > > never > > > > > > > > percolated > > > > > > > > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard > > barrier to > > > > > > learn > > > > > > > > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these > > > > principles > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as > > > > Western > > > > > > > > system. > > > > > > > > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. > > One > > > > > > group > > > > > > > > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support > > astrology > > > > due > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > their business considerations (these astrologers always > > try > > > > to > > > > > > > fit > > > > > > > > > past event very precisely within some astrological > > > > principle > > > > > > > within > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and > > > > faith > > > > > > > etc., > > > > > > > > > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > > > > > > > > astrological > > > > > > > > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too > > > > diabolical > > > > > > > > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in > > > > fluke) > > > > > > may > > > > > > > > come > > > > > > > > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and > > > > start > > > > > > > self > > > > > > > > > praising instead of applying the same socalled > > principle on > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can > > only > > > > > > > mislead, > > > > > > > > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You > > can > > > > > > find > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other > > group > > > > > > (say > > > > > > > > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against > > > > > > astrology. > > > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what > > was > > > > the > > > > > > > > level > > > > > > > > > of information of sages about the Universe, who > > developed > > > > > > > > > astrological principles in primitive age and what > > procedure > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to > > > > Lordship, > > > > > > > > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated , Aspect, > > Vinshottary > > > > > > > > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles > > then > > > > > > > > following > > > > > > > > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given > > in > > > > > > > subpara). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among > > > > seven > > > > > > > > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the > > > > > > stationary > > > > > > > > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on.......... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is > > enmity > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are > > > > enemy > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > each > > > > > > > > > other) ? > > > > > > > > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and > > > > demons > > > > > > over > > > > > > > > > nector after sea-churning. ......... . > > > > > > > > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect > > > > (full, > > > > > > > > quarter > > > > > > > > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full > > aspect on > > > > > > > seventh > > > > > > > > > house) ? > > > > > > > > > Based on the position of army in the battle > > field....... .... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are > > > > > > exalted > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 > > deg. of > > > > > > Aries > > > > > > > > > sign) ? > > > > > > > > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when > > duration > > > > of > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > day is more in comparison to night...... > > > > > > > > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most > > powerful > > > > and > > > > > > hub > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha > > whereas > > > > > > Venus > > > > > > > > (a > > > > > > > > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > > > > > > > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the > > effect > > > > of > > > > > > > > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted..... .. > > > > > > > > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various > > > > constellations > > > > > > > > between > > > > > > > > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian > > scriptures.. ........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of > > a > > > > week > > > > > > > > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > > > > > > > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in > > the > > > > > > > structure > > > > > > > > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far > > away..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde > > > > motion > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > > > > > > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse..... > > > > > > > > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu > > are > > > > 180 > > > > > > > deg. > > > > > > > > > apart? > > > > > > > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse..... ...... > > > > > > > > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of > > eclipse ? > > > > > > > > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation > > month....... ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final > > question > > > > as > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some > > one > > > > gave > > > > > > > > > answers to these questions then he will realize that > > entire > > > > > > > > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong > > concept > > > > of > > > > > > > > > Universe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the > > > > then > > > > > > > > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was > > developed by > > > > > > sage > > > > > > > > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth > > is in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also > > believed > > > > in > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may > > read > > > > any > > > > > > > old > > > > > > > > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas > > Moon > > > > is > > > > > > > > beyond > > > > > > > > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury > > and > > > > > > Moon. > > > > > > > > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological > > > > principles > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self > > studying > > > > > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude > > > > > > correct > > > > > > > > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same > > > > > > combination > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh > > > > logically > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > systematically over this subject and I find that > > Primitive > > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > > > (when astrology was developed) requires full > > overhauling in > > > > > > view > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which > > primitive > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > > > > > > > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > > > > > > > > astrology " Jyotish - > > > > > > > > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book > > > > > > contains > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these > > principles on > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > basis > > > > > > > > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads > > our > > > > > > sages > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > formulate these principles. This book was also > > published in > > > > > > > English > > > > > > > > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 > > pages). > > > > The > > > > > > > book > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > > > > > > > > Refer http://www.bokklubb en.no/samboweb/ produkt.do? > > > > <http://www.bokklubb en.no/samboweb/ produkt.do?> > > > > > > > produktID=1759836 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.thebookp lace.com/ bookplace/ results-asp? > > AUB=sanat% > > > > <http://www.thebookp lace.com/ bookplace/ results-asp? AUB=sanat%> > > > > > > > 20kumar% > > > > > > > > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.aggarwal overseas. com/booksdetail. aspx? > > > > <http://www.aggarwal overseas. com/booksdetail. aspx?> > > > > > > > > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, > > > > Neptune > > > > > > nor > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to > > > > > > presence > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed > > > > the > > > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was > > > > > > > mentioned > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came > > > > > > within > > > > > > > 14 > > > > > > > > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full > > Moon). > > > > But > > > > > > > > nobody > > > > > > > > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar > > eclipse > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > Sun, > > > > > > > > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree > > > > > > respectively > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, > > Moon > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > Ketu > > > > > > > > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively > > on 03- > > > > 03- > > > > > > > 1988 > > > > > > > > ( > > > > > > > > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that > > Solar > > > > > > > eclipses > > > > > > > > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was > > > > more > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was > > at > > > > > > 79.04 > > > > > > > > deg. > > > > > > > > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon > > were > > > > at > > > > > > > > 76.49 > > > > > > > > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu > > > > was > > > > > > > 15.14 > > > > > > > > > deg. away). > > > > > > > > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you > > > > will > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse > > > > occurred > > > > > > at > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though > > it > > > > was > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the > > basis > > > > of > > > > > > > > myth). > > > > > > > > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, > > > > when > > > > > > > Moon > > > > > > > > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be > > > > there. > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > As > > > > > > > > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12- > > 11- > > > > 1985 > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > 3- > > > > > > > > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were > > > > full > > > > > > > solar > > > > > > > > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 > > degree > > > > > > > > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full > > > > solar > > > > > > > > eclipses > > > > > > > > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 > > and > > > > 166 > > > > > > > > degree > > > > > > > > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may > > > > > > possible. > > > > > > > > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in > > > > > > almanac. > > > > > > > > Thus > > > > > > > > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees > > > > > > respectively. > > > > > > > > All > > > > > > > > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this > > > > > > > fundamental > > > > > > > > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If > > you > > > > want > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > can give many more examples and very simple method of > > > > > > detecting > > > > > > > > them. > > > > > > > > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a > > > > science > > > > > > but > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of > > > > astronomy > > > > > > + > > > > > > > > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, > > > > psychology > > > > > > > > > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive > > age) > > > > > > > played > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer > > due > > > > to > > > > > > > > immense > > > > > > > > > faith over astrology+astrologe r hence predictive > > astrology > > > > > > > appears > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will > > > > also > > > > > > > agree > > > > > > > > > with the above observation after going through my > > original > > > > > > > > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre- > > > > decided > > > > > > as > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we > > may > > > > try > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > > some thing, because every thing will take place > > according > > > > to > > > > > > pre- > > > > > > > > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of > > > > modifying > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > pre- > > > > > > > > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our > > fate, > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > all attached happening will automatically change > > creating a > > > > > > > > cascading > > > > > > > > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate > > of > > > > > > every > > > > > > > > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre- written > > or > > > > say > > > > > > pre- > > > > > > > > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because > > when > > > > > > every > > > > > > > > Tom, > > > > > > > > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to > > worship, > > > > good > > > > > > > deed > > > > > > > > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain > > under > > > > > > change. > > > > > > > > You > > > > > > > > > will agree that astrology is totally based on > > mathematical > > > > > > > > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed > > and > > > > can > > > > > > > never > > > > > > > > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart > > > > cannot > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > altered it means result of calculation or say > > prediction is > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is > > ever > > > > > > > > prewritten) > > > > > > > > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. > > > > because > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > that case, if you like to say, then future events will > > be > > > > > > altered > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked > > prediction > > > > > > can > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed > > transit > > > > of > > > > > > > > > planets? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest > > > > > > assured > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. > > Only > > > > > > > > astronomy > > > > > > > > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were > > > > used > > > > > > > > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it > > appears > > > > > > > > correct. > > > > > > > > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a > > > > myth. > > > > > > > Still > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact > > > > The > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 > > > > prize > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e- > > mail > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > website is jref@ and http://www.randi. org > > > > <http://www.randi. org> Because modern > > > > > > > > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being > > > > used > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested > > > > > > business > > > > > > > > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight > > > > this > > > > > > sort > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in > > this > > > > > > > regard > > > > > > > > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that > > astrology > > > > > > > > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to > > > > formulate > > > > > > > > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct > > > > > > information > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > Universe, solar system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and > > > > facts, > > > > > > data > > > > > > > > > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to > > > > join > > > > > > > hands > > > > > > > > > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). > > > > > > > > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > > > > > > > > Think differently, Think logically and Think > > scientifically > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im afraid that your " logic " and " thinking " is a bit off > > base > > > > on > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > topic. Swiss Psychiatrist, Alexander Newton, Copernicus, > > > > Albert > > > > > > > > Einstein, Kepler, Frank Brown, Northwestern University, > > Makai > > > > > > > Takata, > > > > > > > > Toho University, and thousands of qualified and honored > > > > > > scientists > > > > > > > > agree that there is indeed a science called astrology. > > Newton > > > > > > said > > > > > > > > the following to Hally (comet) fame when he challenged the > > > > > > validity > > > > > > > > of astrology, " Sir I've studied the subject, you have > > not! " > > > > > > > > YOu are way off base and your examination of the subject > > is > > > > > > > > incomplete, your conclusions are without merit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 Shri Ron Gaunt, Namaskar! I wonder whether you have gone through my article/speech " Vedic astrology " --the greatest fraud on the Vedas! As indicated there in, I have studied almost all the scriptures of the Hindu religion thoroughly. This " urge to peep into the future " is a post-Alexander-phenomenon in India, since all our shastras invariably advise us, in one or the other form, " karmanyeva adhiakaraste ma phaleshu kadachanai " i.e. " You must do your duty and not care for the results " . On the other hand, any form of astrolatory, whether " Vedic " or " anti-Vedic " or " non-Vedic " or even " Khuller-astrology " that you are advocating, is supposed to be a way to find out whether we will achieve the desired object even if we do not deserve it! This is completely against the ethos of the Hindu culture/scriptures! Regarding " astrology " being a science, it is impossible to prove it, especially the so called nirayana mess, whether Lahiri or Ramana or KP etc. etc. since nirayana rashis, whether the Lahiri or Ramana or Fagan or Kharegat or eve " Khuller " rashis cannot/do not have any existence astronomically! Thye are just " inventions " by various " stalwarts " of " the science of astrology " and to " analyze them scientifically " is to betray our ignorance of the ABC of astrnomy! So far so called sayana rashis are concened, there are just four cardinal ponts viz. the two equinoxes and the two solstices astronomically, but not twelve equal divisions of the zodiac starting from the Vernal Equinox! As such, it is an exercise in futility to try to prove either the sanctity or scientific basis of rashi based predictive gimmicks! The tail piece of " Vedic astrology " , however, is that the entire Hindu commuity has been compelled by these very " Vedic astrologers " to celebrate its festivals and muhurtas on worng days! We have to put a full stop to the same! Regards, A K Kaul , " rongaunt au " <rongaunt wrote: > > > Friends, > > I am new to the forum, but have a fair knowledge of astrology as > it has been my hobby for over 35 years. I am all for > questioning the validity of the subject, as I suspect that many > many astrologers, are very gullible because they have not > studied deeply enough to realise that the permutations in > astrology run into the millions. Again most do not realise that > it is possible to see anything and everything you want to see > after the event with ANY and EVERY system, due to the enormous > number of permutations. And f course, very few if any, go on to > achieve good predictions. > > I think I have looked at just about every astrological system and > method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, and > others do not give consistently good results. It has been my aim > to find one that does work, and to this end I started possibly > the first of the regulat Blind Charts tests on the Web many years > ago. I hoped to find a system that really did work. It is > only in the last year or so that I have found such a system, > which drew my attention because the students of a particular > astrological institution kept getting correct results in our > Blind Chart tests. The system is the Khullar method of Cuspal > Interlinks. > > Anyhow my intention in writing this mail was to point out that it > is not very practical to furnish personal data and then predict > from it, because the waiting time for the prediction means > everyone will lose interest long before the event does or does > not happen. It would be much better to get members to furnish > data, to include some events and family birthdates in order to be > able to rectify the chart, and give say four options which > participants will check to find out which of these options > happened on a given date. This is real life astrology and is > almost as good as future prediction, because you use exactly the > same methods on an unknown event. > > > Ron Gaunt > > > On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:44:09 -0000, you wrote: > > >Shri Jagannathan Kapisthalamji, > >Namaskar! > ><If you can furnish your date of birth,place and time of birth let us > >try some astrological predictions and see whether they work.?> > > > >My late maternal grandfather used to make predictions from horoscopes > >prepared from Grahalaghava panchangas, which were anything but > >correct, and that was admitted by the Panchanga makers themselves! > >Quite often his predictions proved correct! > > > >Does that prove that any predictive gimmicks are either scientific or > >Vedic? No. That cannot be so, since Grahalaghava was/is neither a > >Vedic work nor a scientific one! > > > >Thus even if some astrologers are able to make some correct > >predictions about some one sometimes, that never means/proves that > >those predictions were either on a scientific basis or as per the > >Vedic lore! All that proves is that sometimes some guess works do > >prove correct and that is why more often than not, correct preictions > >are made only from incorrect data, whether birth particulars or > >astronomical data, since Lahiri Ayanamsha in itself is the most > >monstrous ayanamsha that could ever have been invented by any > >charlatan!! And it is on the basis of only that ayanamsha that ninety- > >nine per cent predictions are made these days! > >With regards, > >A K Kaul > > > > , " Jagannathan Kapisthalam " > ><jagannathankr@> wrote: > >> > >> Dear Sir, > >> Your article is quite interesting.If you can furnish your date of > >> birth,place and time of birth let us try some astrological > >predictions and > >> see whether they work.?This is only out of academic interest. > >> Regards, > >> jagannathan. > >> > >> On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > >> > > >> > > >> > Resp. members, > >> > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of discussion on > >> > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am enclosing my old > >> > blog placed in the file section so that members may read it and > >> > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not reacting > >with a > >> > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though they are > >> > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can interact on > >my > >> > email sanatkumar_jain@ <sanatkumar_jain%40rediffmail.com> > >> > > >> > So far members have observed that supporters of astrology are > >either > >> > interested in by passing the main point or they have only faith on > >> > astrology without any scientific or logical support to any > >concept. > >> > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others to follow > >the > >> > path of ignorance. > >> > > >> > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am always > >interested > >> > in looking deep. > >> > > >> > Thanks > >> > Sanat > >> > > >> > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > >> > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > >> > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied in > >depth > >> > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like > >this. So > >> > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to > >whether > >> > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science due > >to > >> > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > >> > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only want to > >> > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us > >examine > >> > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you have > >> > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are standing > >in > >> > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > >> > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > >> > science without knowing the story of other side. I can understand > >the > >> > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but if > >you > >> > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or call an > >> > astrologer in the consumer forum. > >> > > >> > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > >> > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > >> > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > >religious > >> > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, > >Moon, > >> > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only > >sages > >> > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > >> > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to > >predict > >> > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called > >grabbing > >> > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > >> > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > >> > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer donations > >etc. > >> > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is > >still > >> > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > >everybody > >> > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this situation, > >it > >> > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the fate > >of > >> > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the > >fate of > >> > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > >> > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of > >sages > >> > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > >principles > >> > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > >> > > >> > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > >percolated > >> > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to learn > >> > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles were > >> > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western > >system. > >> > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > >> > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due to > >> > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to fit > >> > past event very precisely within some astrological principle > >within a > >> > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith etc., > >> > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > >astrological > >> > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > >> > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) may > >come > >> > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start self > >> > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on other > >> > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only mislead, > >> > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can find > >that > >> > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > >> > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against astrology. > >But > >> > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the > >level > >> > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > >> > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > >> > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > >> > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > >> > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > >following > >> > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in > >subpara). > >> > > >> > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > >> > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > >> > > >> > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the stationary > >> > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > >> > > >> > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > >> > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy of > >each > >> > other) ? > >> > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons over > >> > nector after sea-churning……….. > >> > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, > >quarter > >> > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on > >seventh > >> > house) ? > >> > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > >> > > >> > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are exalted > >and > >> > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of Aries > >> > sign) ? > >> > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of the > >> > day is more in comparison to night…… > >> > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and hub > >of > >> > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas Venus > >(a > >> > small planet) has 20 years ? > >> > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > >> > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > >> > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations > >between > >> > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > >> > > >> > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > >> > > >> > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > >> > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > >> > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the > >structure > >> > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > >> > > >> > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion of > >> > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > >> > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 > >deg. > >> > apart? > >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > >> > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > >> > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > >> > > >> > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as to > >> > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > >> > answers to these questions then he will realize that entire > >> > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > >> > Universe. > >> > > >> > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > >> > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by sage > >> > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > >> > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in all > >> > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any old > >> > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is > >beyond > >> > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and Moon. > >> > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles are > >> > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > >astrology > >> > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > >> > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same combination is > >> > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically and > >> > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive concept > >> > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in view > >of > >> > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive concept > >of > >> > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > >> > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > >astrology " Jyotish - > >> > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book contains > >the > >> > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on the > >basis > >> > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our sages to > >> > formulate these principles. This book was also published in > >English > >> > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). The > >book is > >> > being marketed in USA /UK etc. > >> > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > >produktID=1759836 > >> > > >> > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% > >20kumar% > >> > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > >> > > >> > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > >> > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > >> > > >> > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune nor > >they > >> > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to presence > >of > >> > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the > >concept > >> > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was > >mentioned in > >> > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came within 14 > >> > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But > >nobody > >> > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse when > >Sun, > >> > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree respectively > >on > >> > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon and > >Ketu > >> > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03-03- > >1988 ( > >> > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar eclipses > >> > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more then > >> > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at 79.04 > >deg. > >> > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at > >76.49 > >> > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was 15.14 > >> > deg. away). > >> > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will also > >> > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred at > >the > >> > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was not > >> > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of > >myth). > >> > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when Moon > >> > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. But > >As > >> > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-1985 > >and 3- > >> > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full > >solar > >> > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > >> > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar > >eclipses > >> > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 > >degree > >> > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may possible. > >> > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in almanac. > >Thus > >> > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees respectively. > >All > >> > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this fundamental > >> > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want > >then I > >> > can give many more examples and very simple method of detecting > >them. > >> > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science but > >in > >> > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > >> > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > >> > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) > >played an > >> > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to > >immense > >> > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology > >appears to > >> > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also > >agree > >> > with the above observation after going through my original > >> > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-decided as > >was > >> > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try to > >do > >> > some thing, because every thing will take place according to pre- > >> > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying that > >pre- > >> > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, even > >then > >> > all attached happening will automatically change creating a > >cascading > >> > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > >> > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say pre- > >> > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when every > >Tom, > >> > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good > >deed > >> > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under change. > >You > >> > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > >> > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can > >never > >> > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > >> > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is also > >> > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > >prewritten) > >> > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because in > >> > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be altered > >but > >> > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction can be > >> > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > >> > planets? > >> > > >> > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest assured > >that > >> > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > >astronomy > >> > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > >> > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > >correct. > >> > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. > >Still if > >> > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The James > >> > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > >> > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > >> > website is jref@ <jref%40randi.org> and > >http://www.randi.orgBecause modern > >> > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used to > >> > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested business > >> > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this sort > >of > >> > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this regard > >> > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > >> > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > >> > principles was neither logical nor based on correct information of > >> > Universe, solar system. > >> > > >> > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and facts, data > >> > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to join > >hands > >> > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). > >> > Sanat Kumar Jain > >> > Think differently, Think logically and Think scientifically > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> > > > > > > > >--- > > > > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 29, 2008 Report Share Posted July 29, 2008 HinduCalendar , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved wrote: Shri Sunil Bhattacharjyaji, Namaskar! <On what basis you say that Varahamihira was after Sphuridhvaja.> Varahamihira was a contemporaneous of Aryabhata, around 5th/6th century CE. This has been clarified/proved by all the translators/commentators of all the works of Varahamihira and also Aryabhata! On the other hand, Sphujidwaja's Yavanajataka is a work of about 2nd cenury CE, as is evident from that work itself. Evidently, Varahamihira came later than Sphujidwaja! < I have written earlier also in this forum about Varahamira's mentioning the " Shakendra kala " > This forum is unmoderated for posts and anybody can post anything. That does not mean that just by posting that mail, he/she has proved the contents of the same! Contentions have to be sunbstantiated by all the available material, and if there is some doubt, he/she must indicate that it is his/her opinion which remains yet in the realm of speculation! <I wonder why that has been ignored.> Some people still believe in the Nazi dictum---if you circulae a lie a hundred times, people will start taking it as truth! As such, instead of ticking the concerned person everytime off with such statements as " you have been told innumerable times to prove your stands but still you are making claims without sunbstantiating them " , it is better to ignore some posts! < 2) > Have you seen the Shaunaka Shakha of Atharva veda? > Yet another question in reply to my request to please quote the exact references of the Atharva Veda Samhita where you have seen the 162 mantras referring to Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashi based predictive gimmicks! In any case, yes I have the Shaunaka Shakha of Atharva Veda Samhita, in four/five volumes, with a complete commentary by Acharya Sayana, published by Vishveshwariya Sanskrit Research Institute, Hoshiarpur. Will you now be kind enough to quote the exact references from the Atharva Veda of which you have been talking time and again! <3) I repeat that Manu asked the Vanaprasthis only to abstain from practising astrology.> Again the same Nazi dictum/belief as stated above! <This to me means that he has not astrolgy practice for others. > Kindly clarify what you mean! <It appears you do not agree with my interpretation. > What interpretation? Just answer one question! Have you read the Manusmriti yourself from cover to cover? If yes, would you kindly quote even one shloka where the Manu has advised us to be fatalists or to peep into the future on the shoulders of one or the other predictive gimmick? I have read it several times, but find that Manu has exhorted " purushartha " --- and that is the letter and spririt of all our shastras! May be I have overlooked Manu's " advice " that we should also go to soothsayers to find out from them whether our cow will be yielding milk for the next six months or not etc. etc.! As such, pl. do quote those sholkas! Besides, why are you silent about the Mahabharata equating a Brahamana with a chandala if he is a nakshatra-soochi or nakshatra- jeevi? --- a stand quite contrary to that of Varahamihira the greatest charlatan of the last one and a half millenium, whose record in charlatanism was " beaten " only by " the greatest 'vedic astrologer' of the twentieth century " through his " Notable Horoscopes " . <You have not cared to see why Ptolemy, the chief librarian of the library in Alexandria " called his book' Collections----- " . > What has Ptolemy's collection got to do with the bible of " Vedic astrologers " like Brihat Parashari or Mansagari or even Brihat Jataka etc.? Has he mentioned any of those works in his collection? Why are you putting the cart before the horse? Why are you turning a blind eye and a deaf ear to the facts that are crying from the houseotops: 1. Can your cite even one astrological work that has not talked of Sunapha, Anapha, Durudhura, veshi, voshi, nabhass etc. yogas? 2. Can you name any work that does not talk about kendras, panpaharas, apoklima etc? From which lauguage have these words been imported? 3. Are all these Sanskrit words " lifted " from the Visnupurana of Maharshi Parashara and planted in his so called BPHS? " Vedic asrologers " of the past have been such idiots that they could not even see the faux pas---by talking of all such words in works like Brihat Parashari etc. and claiming those works to be by Maharshi Parashara or Brighu etc., they are just making a laughing stock of themselves! But then what else can one expect from the " shisyas " of charlatans like Varahamihira or fake Parasharas! <What according to you are the sources from which he collected.> Do you mean to say that it was Maharshi Parashara, the father of Krishna Dvapayna Vyasa of about 3500 BCE, who taught all these " jyotisha " words like Apoklima, Panaphara etc. etc.to Greeks and then we re-imported them from there? Dhnyavad. AKK HinduCalendar , Sunil Bhattacharjya <sunil_bhattacharjya@> wrote: > > Shri Avtarji, > > Namaskar, > > 1) > On what basis you say that Varahamihira was after Sphuridhvaja. I have written earlier also in this forum about Varahamira's mentioning the " Shakendra kala " and I wonder why that has been ignored. Do you think Varahamihira's " Shakendra kala " and Brahmagupta's " Shakanta kala " are the same? > > 2) > Have you seen the Shaunaka Shakha of Atharva veda? > > 3) I repeat that Manu asked the Vanaprasthis only to abstain from practising astrology. This to me means that he has not astrolgy practice for others. It appears you do not agree with my interpretation. That is okay with me . You live with your own interpretation and I mine. > > 4) You have not cared to see why Ptolemy, the chief librarian of the library in Alexandria " called his book' Collections----- " . What according to you are the sources from which he collected. > > Regards, > > skb > > --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> wrote: > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@> > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Astrology a science or myth > HinduCalendar > Sunday, July 27, 2008, 9:58 AM > > > > > Shri Sunil Bhattacharjyaji, > > Namaskar! > > <Will you not kindly like to do plain elaboration of this " plain > > speaking " for the ready reference.> > > > > This has already been explained hundreds of times! Pl. see BVB6, > > Rashi5, npj, PAC3, ramanji etc. etc. documents! > > > > < How do you say so even when there are the 162 verses of Jyotisha in > > Atharva veda? > > > > > You have been requested several times to quote the exact references > > from the Atharva Veda but every time you repeat the same > > statement " there are the 162 verses of Jyotisha in Atharva veda " > > without giving the exact chapter and verse! > > > > <Finally Avtarji, Manu, the law-giver, asked only the Vanaprasthis to > > abstain from practising astrology. If Manu has not denied practice of > > astrology by the other ashramis why do you want to ammend Manu's > > laws?> > > > > Has the Manu advised anywhere anybody to consult a nakshatra-jeevi as > > he has advised several other dos and donts? If not, how do you > > presume that the Manu has not forbidden it? Manu has not forbidden > > several things for anybody, like adultery for a Vanparasthi! Does it > > mean that a vanaparasthi can commit the same? It appears you have > > not the read the Mahabharata either, leave alone the Yogavasishtha > > Maharamayana, though you are insisting on " Brahama-Rashi " in the > > former work! If you had read it from cover to cover, you would have > > been the last person to advocate astrolatory! > > > > <Varahamihira says that Greeks learnt astrology and became experts> > > > > HOw could anybody learn astrolatory from India when India did not > > have any planetary astronomy in any of the indigenous astronomical > > works prior to the Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha? > > > > Vaahamihira' s Brihat Jatakam is a ditto copy of Sphujidwaja' s > > Yavanajatakam- --all the moles and warts---like the names of planets, > > signs, kendras, panapharas, dreshkanas and what not! It is not the > > other way round! And still you want us to believe that the Greeks > > learnt predictive gimmicks from India and it was not the other way > > round! > > < If these Greeks, who are learned in astrology are adorable how much > > (more) adorable a brahmin (with knowledge of the shastras as well as > > of astrology) would be.> > > Just go through the Mahabharata from cover to cover and you will > > learn as to how " adorable " nakshatra-jeevis are/were in India! > > Varahamihira called yavanas as Rishis because they were nakshatra- > > jeevis whereas the Mahabharata calls Brahmins as chanadalas if they > > are nakshatra-soochis! But our " Vedic astrologers " would like to > > believe Varahamihira than Bhishma-Pitamaha or Vasishtha Rishi, since > > they have pawned everything, includign their conscience, to overseas > > Vamadevas and fake Parasharas! > > > > <Is it not just your assumption or because Pingree said that Indians > > learned astrology from the Greeks? Do you know that the title of the > > 2nd century book of Ptolemy (Claudius) was " Collections- --- " . As he > > was the head of the Alexandria museum (and library) he had access to > > all the astrology books, which the Greeks took from India.> > > > > What has Pingree to do with all this? You presume that Greeks > > collected all the phalita jyotisha books from India in second century > > when we could never have any rashi-based indigenous astrological > > works prior to the advent of the Surya Sidhanta! Why are you putting > > the cart before the horse? > > The million dollar question is, even if we presume that we had all > > the planetary astronomical works, how on earth could chalraltans like > > Varahamihira have made accurate predictions from such monstrous > > astronomical data? But then, I forget that " Vedic astrologers " can > > make corret predictions only from incorrect data! Witness " Notable > > Horoscopes " by the " greatest Vedic astrologer of the twentieth > > century " > > Dhanyavad. > > AKK > > > > HinduCalendar, Sunil Bhattacharjya > > <sunil_bhattacharjy a wrote: > > > > > > Shri Avtarji, > > > > > > Namaste, > > > > > > <<< > > > Because there is a direct conflict between the hoax called Vedic > > > > > > astrology--- the Lahiri nirayana mess actually!--- and the real > > > > > > Vedic/Hindu calendar! After all, somebody has to do plain speaking > > > > > > and call a spade a spade! >>>>> > > > > > > Will you not kindly like to do plain elaboration of this " plain > > speaking " for the ready reference. > > > > > > > > > <<< Wht is a fact? Jyotish being called a Vedanga or my not > > liking it? > > > > > > If it is the former I agree with you that Jyotish is a Vedanga, but > > > > > > jyotish in the sense of deciding proper timings for Vedic rituals > > is > > > > > > a Vedanga whereas predictive gimmicks are a hoax being played on > > the > > > > > > Vedas in the name of the Vedanga Jyotisha! As such, it is clear > > that > > > > > > any hoax being played by anybody has to be exposed and > > not " liked " ! >>> > > > > > > How do you say so even when there are the 162 verses of Jyotisha in > > Atharva veda? Is it not just your assumption or because Pingree said > > that Indians learned astrology from the Greeks? Do you know that the > > title of the 2nd century book of Ptolemy (Claudius) was " Collections- - > > -- " . As he was the head of the Alexandria museum (and library) he had > > access to all the astrology books, which the Greeks took from India. > > Varahamihira says that Greeks learnt astrology and became experts. If > > these Greeks, who are learned in astrology are adorable how much > > (more) adorable a brahmin (with knowledge of the shastras as well as > > of astrology) would be. > > > > > > <<< > > > Already explained above in first para! >>> > > > > > > Did you explain? I see only your assertion and no explanation. > > > > > > Finally Avtarji, Manu, the law-giver, asked only the Vanaprasthis > > to abstain from practising astrology. If Manu has not denied practice > > of astrology by the other ashramis why do you want to ammend Manu's > > laws? > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > skb > > > > > > > > > --- On Sun, 7/27/08, Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@ ..> wrote: > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved@ ..> > > > [HinduCalendar] Fwd: Re: Astrology a science or myth > > > hinducalendar > > > Sunday, July 27, 2008, 1:48 AM > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vedic Astrology- Hyderabad@ . > > com, " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > > > > > > <jyotirved@ ..> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Shri Chandrashekharji, > > > > > > Namaskar! > > > > > > <If you are so certain that Vedic astrology is a hoax, why do you > > > > > > want to convince others that it has nothing to do with Vedas?> > > > > > > > > > > > > Because there is a direct conflict between the hoax called Vedic > > > > > > astrology--- the Lahiri nirayana mess actually!--- and the real > > > > > > Vedic/Hindu calendar! After all, somebody has to do plain speaking > > > > > > and call a spade a spade! > > > > > > > > > > > > <Jyotish is called Vedanga whether you like it or not and that is a > > > > > > fact.> > > > > > > Wht is a fact? Jyotish being called a Vedanga or my not liking > > it? > > > > > > If it is the former I agree with you that Jyotish is a Vedanga, but > > > > > > jyotish in the sense of deciding proper timings for Vedic rituals > > is > > > > > > a Vedanga whereas predictive gimmicks are a hoax being played on > > the > > > > > > Vedas in the name of the Vedanga Jyotisha! As such, it is clear > > that > > > > > > any hoax being played by anybody has to be exposed and not " liked " ! > > > > > > > > > > > > <Talking about astrologers gimmicks, as you call predictive > > > > > > astrology, as disrespect to Vedic seer and in the same breath > > saying > > > > > > that Jyotish has noting to do with Vedas as Mesha and grahas are > > not > > > > > > mentioned in Vedas is contradictory to say the least.> > > > > > > > > > > > > If someone attributes statements to seers which they never made, > > that > > > > > > is the real disrepsect and in that sense " Vedic astrologers " are > > the > > > > > > real culprits since they are showing the greatest disrepsect to the > > > > > > real Vamadevas and Parasharas on the behest of some overseas > > > > > > Vamadevas and fake Parasharas that the Vedic seers advocated > > > > > > predictive gimmicks on the basis of Mesha etc. rashis--and that > > also > > > > > > the Lahiri mess!--- and Mangal, Shani etc. planets! > > > > > > > > > > > > <Your one point agenda seems to be to > > > > > > criticize astrology practiced in India, for reasons best know to > > you.> > > > > > > > > > > > > Already explained above in first para! > > > > > > > > > > > > <I do not find you now a days claiming to be president/chairman of > > > > > > calendar reforms committee (formed in 1957) that you used to do, > > > > > > earlier on other jyotish lists, despite of the fact that that > > > > > > committee was disolved long before and it never mentioned you as > > its > > > > > > president/chairman or even member.> > > > > > > > > > > > > You appear to be in a hurry to make allegations/ insinuations which > > > > > > you cannot prove/substantiate at all! Pl. quote even a single > > > > > > statement from my side wherein I have said that I was the > > > > > > President/Chairman of the Calendar Reform Committee formed in 1957 > > > > > > by the Govt. of India. Since you cannot do so, you will have to > > > > > > tender an unconditional apology for such allegations. > > > > > > > > > > > > <I remember that > > > > > > when I asked about this anomaly on one list you disappeared from > > the > > > > > > list.> > > > > > > Normally, I go by the edict of the Gita---dharmyad hiyudhach- > > chreyao > > > > > > nanyat kshatriyasya vidyate (hough I am not a Kshatirya by caste, > > but > > > > > > according to me it is the dharma of every Vedic Hindu to fight for > > > > > > the real Vedic dharma!)---- and therefore, believe in replying > > every > > > > > > post especially if it is critical of my views! As such, either > > > > > > that " list " must have banned me---like the " world famous " group of > > > > > > Vedic-astrology or " Hinduism-environme nt " or " Om- > > > > > > namah-shivaya " etc. etc. or that group must be " moderated " for > > posts > > > > > > which just did/does not let my reply to your points appear there > > > > > > since Truth hurts such groups, > > > > > > > > > > > > < I would never have mentioned all this but your approach of > > abusing > > > > > > astrology as a science makes me take this step so that the member > > on > > > > > > the list understand the facts> > > > > > > > > > > > > Again, it appears that without having read even the Report of > > Meghnad > > > > > > Saha Calendar Reform Committee of 1957, you are making a fool of > > > > > > yourself by trying to ascribe statements to that committee that it > > > > > > had prasied astrology! Here is what that committe had said in its > > > > > > final recommendations on page 12, " He (Dr. Gorakh Prasad) pointed > > out > > > > > > that in the past there had been heroworship and guru-worship and > > due > > > > > > to personal animosity and financial considerations, several > > anomalies > > > > > > crept in. Even today panchanga making was a financial > > proposition. > > > > > > Astrology flourished on the principle, 'remember if it fits, forget > > > > > > if it misses " . > > > > > > > > > > > > Obviouisly, the Saha Calendar Reform Committe has had nothing but > > > > > > disgust for predictive gimmicks, but then some people have the > > habit > > > > > > of deliberately turning a blind eye (even deaf ears!) towards the > > > > > > facts that hurt their interests--- whether financial or prestige-- - > > > > > > even if it is at the cost of that very dharma that they claim to > > > > > > defend---Vedic dharma in the present case---on the shoulders of non- > > > > > > existent Vedic astrology! > > > > > > > > > > > > <I want to bring certain facts to light about National calendar > > > > > > reform Committee.> > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish you go through the full report of Saha Calendar Reform > > > > > > Committee! This is what it has said in the summary, on page 260, > > > > > > about the Lahiri nirayana mess > > > > > > " This (read Lahiri nirayana mess!) recommendation is to be regarded > > > > > > only as a measure of compromise so that we avoid a violent break > > with > > > > > > the established custom (read Grahalaghava/ Lahiri calendar!). But > > it > > > > > > does not make our present seasons in the various months as they > > were > > > > > > in the days of Varahamihira or Kalidasa. It is hoped that at not a > > > > > > distant date, further reforms for locating the lunar and solar > > > > > > festivals in the seasons in which they were originally observed as > > > > > > per the Vedas and other shastras will be adopted " . > > > > > > > > > > > > This is what it has said further on the same page, " By continuing > > to > > > > > > follow the nirayana (read Lahiri mess) system, the Hindu calendar > > > > > > makers are under delusion that they are following the path of > > > > > > dharma. They are actualy committing the whole Hindu society to > > > > > > Adharma " . > > > > > > > > > > > > NEEDLESS TO TELL YOU HERE THAT YOU WANT THE ENTIRE HINDU SOCEITY TO > > > > > > CONITNUE TO WALLOW IN AHDARMA I.E. LAHIRI NIRAYANA MESS, ON THE > > > > > > SHOULDERS OF THE SAME CALENDAR REFORM COMMITTEE THAT YOU ARE > > QUOTING > > > > > > EVEN WITHOUT KNOWING WHAT IT HAS RECOMMENEDED! > > > > > > > > > > > > Better brush up your knowledge before entering into discussions! > > > > > > Dhanyavad! > > > > > > AKK > > > > > > > > > > > > Vedic Astrology- Hyderabad, Chandrashekhar > > > > > > <chandrashekhar46@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Avatar Krishen Saheb, > > > > > > > > > > > > > > If you are so certain that Vedic astrology is a hoax, why do you > > > > > > want to > > > > > > > convince others that it has nothing to do with Vedas? Jyotish is > > > > > > called > > > > > > > Vedanga whether you like it or not and that is a fact. Talking > > > > > > about > > > > > > > astrologers gimmicks, as you call predictive astrology, as > > > > > > disrespect to > > > > > > > Vedic seer and in the same breath saying that Jyotish has noting > > to > > > > > > do > > > > > > > with Vedas as Mesha and grahas are not mentioned in Vedas is > > > > > > > contradictory to say the least. Your one point agenda seems to be > > > > > > to > > > > > > > criticize astrology practiced in India, for reasons best know to > > > > > > you. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I do not find you now a days claiming to be president/chairman of > > > > > > > calendar reforms committee (formed in 1957) that you used to do, > > > > > > earlier > > > > > > > on other jyotish lists, despite of the fact that that committee > > was > > > > > > > disolved long before and it never mentioned you as its > > > > > > > president/chairman or even member. May be members on this do not > > of > > > > > > your > > > > > > > claim but I have read you saying this on many lists. I remember > > > > > > that > > > > > > > when I asked about this anomaly on one list you disappeared from > > > > > > the > > > > > > > list. So for the benefit of members I want to bring certain facts > > > > > > to > > > > > > > light about National calendar reform Committee. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was Meghnad Saha who was the chairman of that committee, other > > > > > > > members being A. C. Banerjee, K. K. Daftari, J. S. Karandikar, > > > > > > Gorakh > > > > > > > Prasad, R. V. Vaidya and N. C. Lahiri. Your name does not appear > > on > > > > > > the > > > > > > > Vigyan prasar.gov.in site. I would not have mentioned this but it > > > > > > seems > > > > > > > that your sole agenda is to call names to the divine science and > > > > > > try to > > > > > > > prove that even the dates of observation of various rituals are > > > > > > wrong. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I wish to paste a link that gives information about the original > > > > > > > Calendar reform committee. I am sure the learned will draw their > > > > > > own > > > > > > > inference about the rationale or otherwise of your various > > > > > > arguments. > > > > > > > 1) http://www.vigyanpr asar.gov. in/scientists/ saha/sahanew. htm > > > > > > > 2) http://www.packolka ta.org/history. html > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would never have mentioned all this but your approach of > > abusing > > > > > > > astrology as a science makes me take this step so that the member > > > > > > on the > > > > > > > list understand the facts. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Chandrashekhar. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Avtar Krishen Kaul wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <scienceofas trology%40g roups.com> , " Avtar > > Krishen > > > > > > Kaul " > > > > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Razdan Sahib, > > > > > > > > Namaskar! > > > > > > > > Many thanks for your detailed reply! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Let me try to analyze some of your points vis-a-vis the facts: > > > > > > > > <I have however interest in Vedic Astrology and have been > > > > > > studying it > > > > > > > > for the last eight years.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The alpha and omega of " Vedic astrology " are Mesha, Vrisha etc. > > > > > > > > rashis and all the seven planets besides Rahu and Kethu! > > > > > > Ironically, > > > > > > > > the Rashis---all the twelve of them---are conspicuous by their > > > > > > > > absence from the Vedas, Upanishadas, Brahmanas etc. etc. And so > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > the most dreaded planets like Mangal, Shani etc. There is no > > > > > > mention > > > > > > > > of Rahu but some reference to Swarbhanu whereas Kethu is > > referred > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > in the sense of " dhoomaketu " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > As such, to call any predictive gimmicks as Vedic astrology is > > to > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > great injustice to our Vedic Seers! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > < I felt that we Indians donot take our old scriptures > > > > > > seriously... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Could you kindly quote any scripture that has advised us to run > > > > > > after > > > > > > > > jyotishis in order to find out as to whether Lalu or Kalu will > > be > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > PM or " whether I will recover from my heart attack " ? To the > > best > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > my knowlege all our scriptures advise us > > > > > > > > " uttishthatai jagrata prapya varan nibodhata " . As such, to say > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > we are not taking our " jyotish scriptures " seriously is a > > patent > > > > > > lie > > > > > > > > since there are no scriptures that advise us to prctise > > predictive > > > > > > > > gimmicks! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <while westerners not only study these but promote these and > > try > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > bring them on the so called scientific field.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Westerners are mercenaries! They are not promoting our > > scriptures > > > > > > > > but their own christianity! If they are interested in " Vedic > > > > > > > > astrology " it is only because they are milking a cow that has > > > > > > golden > > > > > > > > udders! Can you imagine as to how foolish we are when we > > believe > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > Western charlatans that they are promoting " Vedic astrology " > > when > > > > > > > > none of our scriptures has advised us to believe in any > > predictive > > > > > > > > gimmicks, at least the Rashi based ones! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <My own opinion is that there is no need to find any proof for > > > > > > Vedic > > > > > > > > Astrology as a predictive tool> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Does such an opinion have any value either logically or > > > > > > > > scientifically? Such opinions can be called " wishful thinking " > > or > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > best an illusion/hallucinat ion of the highest order! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <.( It is called Vedic to differentiate it from Western > > Astrology, > > > > > > > > Chinese Astrology etc and therefore there is nothing wrong in > > > > > > calling > > > > > > > > it so) > > > > > > > > > Why call it Vedic? Why not call it " Indian " or " Hindu " > > > > > > or " nirayana " > > > > > > > > and so on? As aleady explained, to call any predictive gimmicks > > > > > > > > as " Vedic " is to exhibit our ignorance of our Vedic knowledge > > to > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > whole world from housetops! It is politicians who tell such lies > > > > > > > > like attributing certain qualties to some " item " which > > that " item " > > > > > > > > does not possess! Real Vedic scholas never do so! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <Do we need a proof for what Lord Krishna says in Bhagwat Gita.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > No, we do not need any proofs for the same! But then the same > > Lord > > > > > > > > Krishna has never advised us to consult some soothsayer! Why > > are > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > forgetting the world famous sholka of the same Gita > > > > > > > > " karmanyeva adhikaraste ma phaleshu kadachana > > > > > > > > ma karma phala hetur bhoo ma te sango astu akarmani " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Then again, when Arjuna tells Lord Krishna, as per the same > > Gita > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > you are quoting as an authority, > > > > > > > > " I do not know who will win the war " Lord Krishna did not advise > > > > > > > > Arjuna to consult some Jyotishsi to find out an answer to that > > > > > > > > question! On the other hand, He said to Arjuna in quite > > unambguous > > > > > > > > words, > > > > > > > > " If you get killed you will go to the heavens and if you win > > the > > > > > > war > > > > > > > > yo will be the master of the whole globe " > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Why are we, who call ourselves Krishna Bhaktas and Vedic Hindus, > > > > > > > > going against the dictum of the same Lord Krishna but following > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > dictum of some overseas Vamadeva and local " Parashara " etc. who > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > makinng a fool of us? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <For example Parashara says that for a person to be good > > > > > > astrologist, > > > > > > > > he needs to be a Sanskari, a man imbued with faith on Dharma > > > > > > living a > > > > > > > > pure and austere life and having superior drishti ( some sort of > > > > > > > > sixth sense, some jyotishis of Kashmir had).> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > By Parashara, you mean Brihat Parashariwala Paashara! It > > appears > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > have not read any of my posts, where in it has been proved > > > > > > > > consclusively that the Parasharis galore that are floating > > around > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > not by Parashara the father of Krishna Dvaipayana Veda-Vyasa > > but > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > fake Parashara, maybe even several fake " Parasharas " . This has > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > demonstrated by Pt. S. B. Dikshit in his " Bharatiya Jyotish " > > and > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > Sitaram Jha in his original " Parasharai " published originally > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > seventy years back by Master Khelari Lal and Sons, Varanasi, > > which > > > > > > > > was later translated by R. Santhanam into English! However, > > > > > > > > Santhanam/publisher s completely omitted the orignal words of > > > > > > Sitaram > > > > > > > > Jha that he had collected the (so called) Parashari from > > different > > > > > > > > sources and thus there was no guarantee that the work was > > really > > > > > > by > > > > > > > > Maharshi Parashara! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All these Parasharis are like " Ravana Samhita " and " Brighu > > > > > > Samhita " --- > > > > > > > > master concoctios and nothing else! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <For example we know very little about the use of divisional > > > > > > charts > > > > > > > > and it is possible we miss a lot of information from this lack > > of > > > > > > > > knowledge.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > All these divisional charts and at least thirty-six types of > > Dasha > > > > > > > > Bhuktis and at least half a dozen ayanamshas are irrefutable > > > > > > proofs > > > > > > > > that " Vedic astrology " is nothing but a fraud that is being > > made > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > and more confusing with the passage of everyday so that in such > > a > > > > > > > > labyrinth, nobody tires to question the veracity of their > > > > > > statements! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <what would have been possible with men who could remember > > several > > > > > > > > hundred pages of text easily like modern day computers.> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Vedanga Jyotisha, the only indigenous astronomical work of > > about > > > > > > 1400 > > > > > > > > BCE comprises hardly a hundred shlokas! And that work gives > > just > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > methodology of calculating tithi, nakshatra and the months > > Madhu, > > > > > > > > Madhava etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Besides, as already explained hundeds of times, prior to the > > > > > > advent > > > > > > > > of planetary data from overseas observatories like that of > > > > > > Greenwich > > > > > > > > and US Naval Observatory etc., India never had any methodology > > of > > > > > > > > calculating correct planetary longitudes! In other words, right > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > the Surya Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha of second century BCE > > till > > > > > > > > about 1900 AD, India could never calculate horoscopes properly, > > > > > > since > > > > > > > > the planetary longitudes derived from the Surya Sidhanta or > > > > > > Aryabhati > > > > > > > > or Sidhanhta Shiromani or Grahalghava or Makaranda etc. etc. > > were > > > > > > > > incorrect by several degrees whatever the ayanamsha used! As > > such, > > > > > > > > to expect that our forefathers/ ancestors made correct > > predcitions > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > to live in a fool's paradise! They never had the wherewithall > > to > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > so whether by way of astronomy or by way of astrological > > > > > > literature > > > > > > > > since all the astrologcial jargon is a direct import from > > > > > > > > Babylon/Greece! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <It is fashionable among Hindus to criticise their own faith > > since > > > > > > > > the word Hindu and things associated with it are considered > > > > > > primitive > > > > > > > > and unscientific> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I had thrown a challenge to all the astrologers, whether Vedic > > or > > > > > > > > anti-Vedic or non-Vedic to quote even a single sholka from any > > > > > > Purana > > > > > > > > or Smriti or Itihasa or any other shastra---leave alone the > > Vedas- > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > that has asked us to cosnult some soothsayer before embarking > > on > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > plan! I repeat that challenge! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Since there are no such references, we are becoming a pawn in > > the > > > > > > > > hands of overseas and even local mercenaries who are > > brainwashing > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > that we must believe that predictive gimmicks are as per the > > Hindu > > > > > > > > shastras! NO they are not! They are imports from Greece and the > > > > > > > > earlier we realize that truth the better for the entire Hindu > > > > > > > > community, since it is only such a blind faith in " Veic > > astrology " > > > > > > > > that is compelling us to celebrate all our festivals and > > muhurtas > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > wrong days, and thus making us decimate our own Vedic culture > > by > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > own foolishness of our faith in " Vedic astrology " ! > > > > > > > > The sooner we come out of such a stupor the better! > > > > > > > > With regards, > > > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <scienceofas trology%40g roups.com> , " pnrazdan " > > > > > > <pnrazdan@> > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Kaul Sahib, > > > > > > > > > Namaskar. Yes, I have read your several posts on the Panchang > > > > > > > > > calculations and the detailed elaboration of your views on > > what > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > term as the mistake committed in the calculations. I donot > > have > > > > > > > > > knoweldge on this subject and therefore cannot comment. > > > > > > > > > I have however interest in Vedic Astrology and have been > > > > > > studying it > > > > > > > > > for the last eight years. I developed interest for it while I > > > > > > was in > > > > > > > > > US after meeting some westerners who are quite knoweldgeble > > in > > > > > > it. I > > > > > > > > > felt that we Indians donot take our old scriptures seriously > > > > > > while > > > > > > > > > westerners not only study these but promote these and try to > > > > > > bring > > > > > > > > > them on the so called scientific field. Thus Yoga has become a > > > > > > > > > household word here in US and a lot has been done for Vedic > > > > > > > > Astrology > > > > > > > > > by developing the software for chart making, setting up of two > > > > > > > > > Associations both in Britain and US etc., notwithstanding the > > > > > > spread > > > > > > > > > of various quacks who make lot of money in this field. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > My own opinion is that there is no need to find any proof for > > > > > > Vedic > > > > > > > > > Astrology as a predictive tool even though I find enough to > > > > > > brand it > > > > > > > > > as a science.( It is called Vedic to differentiate it from > > > > > > Western > > > > > > > > > Astrology, Chinese Astrology etc and therefore there is > > nothing > > > > > > > > wrong > > > > > > > > > in calling it so) Do we need a proof for what Lord Krishna > > says > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > Bhagwat Gita. Do we need to prove that Spiritual path is the > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > way > > > > > > > > > to get ultimate bliss. Faith is essential in these things > > > > > > because it > > > > > > > > > comes from the same class of " people " who gave us the supreme > > > > > > > > > knowledge enshrined in vedas, upanishads etc.Faith on past > > life > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > Karmic theory too is essential pre requisite for this. > > > > > > > > > Well proving it to be a science looks to me as childish since > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > present scientific parameters seem to be primitive to measure > > > > > > its > > > > > > > > > " scientific " character. For example Parashara says that for a > > > > > > person > > > > > > > > > to be good astrologist, he needs to be a Sanskari, a man > > imbued > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > faith on Dharma living a pure and austere life and having > > > > > > superior > > > > > > > > > drishti ( some sort of sixth sense, some jyotishis of Kashmir > > > > > > had). > > > > > > > > > This is one of the several attributes that a perfect > > astrologist > > > > > > > > needs > > > > > > > > > to have while making a successful prediction. Where will this > > > > > > > > > attribute come in the long list of variables that we try to > > > > > > employ > > > > > > > > for > > > > > > > > > making a cause-effect relationship following the secintific > > > > > > > > > terminology. That is why I say that this sort of scientific > > form > > > > > > > > > y=f(x) will not work in this field. Besides the mathematical > > > > > > > > > relationships cannot hold good here because no two persons are > > > > > > > > similar > > > > > > > > > in this world. Human nature being different, one has to find > > > > > > these > > > > > > > > > sophistications in each chart, something that we know very > > > > > > little > > > > > > > > of. > > > > > > > > > For example we know very little about the use of divisional > > > > > > charts > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > it is possible we miss a lot of information from this lack of > > > > > > > > knowledge. > > > > > > > > > Just as Arjuna while tired of hearing Lord Krishna, begs Him > > of > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > practical proof of what He says to him and thereafter Lord > > > > > > Krishna > > > > > > > > > bestows Arjuna with a new pair of eyes to have divya drishti > > > > > > and to > > > > > > > > > see his Virat Swarup, similarly we cannot measure the > > scientific > > > > > > > > > nature of VA by the existing science, the calculations of > > NASA > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > Several good astrologists make a good analysis and it is not > > > > > > > > > difficult to see good and bad from the chart at least like a > > > > > > haze. > > > > > > > > If > > > > > > > > > all this is possible with our little knowledge, what would > > have > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > possible with men who could remember several hundred pages of > > > > > > text > > > > > > > > > easily like modern day computers.Faculties of men in Kaliyug > > are > > > > > > > > > limited and we are just fiddling with knowledge through our > > > > > > limited > > > > > > > > > tools.Most importantly, there is self doubt. It is > > fashionable > > > > > > among > > > > > > > > > Hindus to criticise their own faith since the word Hindu and > > > > > > things > > > > > > > > > associated with it are considered primitive and unscientific. > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > P.N.Razdan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <scienceofas trology%40g roups.com> , " Avtar > > Krishen > > > > > > Kaul " > > > > > > > > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear P. N. Razdan Sahib, > > > > > > > > > > Namaskar Mahara! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding the discussion whether astrology is a science or > > > > > > myth, > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > am personally of the opinion that astrology is a way of > > > > > > making a > > > > > > > > > > fool of a common man! How I arrived at such a conclusion, > > let > > > > > > me > > > > > > > > > > narrate in brief! > > > > > > > > > > As you are aware, I am also from Srinagar, Kashmir. I was > > > > > > myself > > > > > > > > > > immersed deep in all the " attributes " of astrology right > > > > > > > > > > from " Badsharwar " (sade-sati) to " Tekini-milanavuni " (Patri > > > > > > > > Milapak) > > > > > > > > > > etc. etc. My maternal grandfather, late Shri Nath Ji Shastri > > > > > > > > > > (Pajnoo) of Chundapura, Srinagar, Kashmir was a very reputed > > > > > > > > > > astrologer, though he never charged any thing from anybody! > > > > > > > > Probably > > > > > > > > > > you might have heard his name there! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I inherited a lot of Sanskrit literature-- -including books > > on > > > > > > > > > > astrology--- -from him, which, unfortunately, got destroyed > > in > > > > > > > > 1990 > > > > > > > > > > because of the political disturbances there. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > You must also be aware that till about 1985 there was only > > one > > > > > > > > > > Janri/Panchang there in Srinagar and that was Vijay-eshwar > > > > > > > > > > Jantri/panchang which was being published for the last > > about > > > > > > two > > > > > > > > > > centuries. My grandpa was an avid reader of the same in > > Sharda > > > > > > > > > > script. > > > > > > > > > > I was under the impression that that was a divine work as > > > > > > > > otherwise > > > > > > > > > > how could a human being calculate the planetary positions! I > > > > > > > > would > > > > > > > > > > take every word of the same as gospel truth and read my > > > > > > Rashiphal > > > > > > > > > > and " amdani-kharch ka naksha " etc. etc. at least fifteen to > > > > > > > > twenty > > > > > > > > > > times. From there I " graduated " to Brihat Parashari, > > > > > > Manasagari, > > > > > > > > > > Brihat Jatakam, Sanket Nidhi, Kheta-Kautukam etc. etc. In > > fact > > > > > > > > > > there is perhaps not even a signle book on predictive > > gimmicks > > > > > > > > > > whether in Sanskrit or Urdu or Hindi or English that I have > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > gone > > > > > > > > > > through and tested and tried in day to day life! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > When quite a few predictions did not come true in spite of > > the > > > > > > > > same > > > > > > > > > > having been made as per impeccable jyotisha-shastras, I > > > > > > started > > > > > > > > > > delving deep into astronomy, both sidhantic and > > astrophysics! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Regarding " mundane affairs " i.e. the fate of our " Moj > > kasheer " > > > > > > > > > > (Mother Kashmir) we had nobody else to fall back upon > > except > > > > > > what > > > > > > > > > > our Vijayeshwar- wala told us! He was our friend, > > philospher > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > guide! And unfortunately for the KP community, he let us > > down > > > > > > > > badly > > > > > > > > > > becuase during the years 1989 and 1990, when insurgency was > > at > > > > > > > > its > > > > > > > > > > hieght in Kashmir, he had repeated/assured in his Jantri > > that > > > > > > > > peace > > > > > > > > > > would reign in the valley! AND you are fully aware as to > > what > > > > > > > > type > > > > > > > > > > of peace it was---we became refugees in our own motherland > > and > > > > > > > > quite > > > > > > > > > > a few KPs were butchered and quite a few Kashmiri ladies > > raped > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > enslaved for lives! > > > > > > > > > > And that was the peace that Vijayeshwarwala had predicted > > > > > > > > for " Moj > > > > > > > > > > Kahseer " ! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > (That reminds me of the fate of our nighbour, the only Hindu > > > > > > > > kingdom > > > > > > > > > > of yesteryears, where the erstwhile king--an Incarnation of > > > > > > > > Visnhu!-- > > > > > > > > > > was murdered by his own son the crown prince since the > > > > > > jyotishis > > > > > > > > > > there did not allow the King to marry the crown prince to > > his > > > > > > > > sweet > > > > > > > > > > heart as their " patri-melapak was not having the requisite > > > > > > number > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > gunas " !) > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To add insult to injury, the same Vijayeswhar- wala > > admitted in > > > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > > 1994 or 1995 jantri that till then he was making > > calculations > > > > > > > > > > from " Makaranda " but now he would start doing so from " drik- > > > > > > > > > > ganita " ! He had the cheek to say further that till then he > > was > > > > > > > > > > doing the calcuatons from " Makaranda " only because his > > > > > > > > competitors > > > > > > > > > > i.e. Brahmana Maha-mandal was doing so! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Coming to calculations part, Vedic Hindus have never > > bothered > > > > > > > > about > > > > > > > > > > predictive gimmicks, at least not the rashi-based ones! As > > > > > > such, > > > > > > > > > > the very first work of planetary astronomy in India is the > > > > > > Surya > > > > > > > > > > Sidhanta of Maya the mlechha! Ironically, that is the most > > > > > > > > absurd > > > > > > > > > > astronomical work that anybody could every produce! Still > > more > > > > > > > > > > inronically, Varahamihira, " the greatest astrologer of the > > > > > > last > > > > > > > > 1500 > > > > > > > > > > years " has praised that very Surya Sidhanta to the skies in > > > > > > his > > > > > > > > > > Pnahcasidhantika! And Varahamihira is supposed to have made > > > > > > > > > > accurate Predictions! Not only Varahamihira, but his son > > > > > > > > > > Prithuyashas is also said to have done so and there are > > quite > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > few > > > > > > > > > > astrological works by both of them! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Right from the date of the Surya Sidhanta i.e. about 2nd > > > > > > century > > > > > > > > > > BCE, till about a hundred years back, all the panchanga- > > > > > > makers of > > > > > > > > > > India were basing their calculations on either the Surya > > > > > > Sidhanta > > > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > Aryabhati or Arya Sidhanta or later on some other Karna- > > > > > > grantha > > > > > > > > > > which just circumamublated around the Surya Sidhanta! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > In other words, right from the date of the Surya Sidhanta of > > > > > > > > Pancha- > > > > > > > > > > sidhantika till about a hundred years back, i.e. till the > > > > > > advent > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > planetary data from Greenwich and other observatories, we > > > > > > never > > > > > > > > had > > > > > > > > > > a correct panchanga! The planetary positions in the earlier > > > > > > > > > > panchangas were wrong by as many as twenty degrees very > > often! > > > > > > > > If > > > > > > > > > > you somehow reconciled one error by taking refuge in one > > > > > > > > ayanamsha, > > > > > > > > > > another error would crop up which was more horrendous than > > the > > > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > > > that was removed! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > And as is common knowledge, horoscopes whether of a common > > > > > > man or > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > Maharaja, are prepared from panchangas available in the > > > > > > market! > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > The million dollar question that arises is that if there > > were > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > > correct panchangas available till about a hundred years > > back, > > > > > > how > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > earth could any predictions based on the horscopes prepared > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > same be correct! And if someone can make correct predictions > > > > > > > > from > > > > > > > > > > incorrect data, he is said to be a charlatan! In other > > wrods, > > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > the Hindu astrology was " astrology by charlatans, for > > > > > > charlatans > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > of charlatans " . > > > > > > > > > > To crown it all, we call that very astrology now " Vedic > > > > > > > > astrology " . > > > > > > > > > > " Kudos " to such astrologers, especially, since this " Vedic > > > > > > > > (actualy > > > > > > > > > > anti-Vedic!) astrology " has made us celebrate all our > > > > > > festivals > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > wrong days! > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > A K Kaul > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <scienceofas trology%40g roups.com> , " pnrazdan " > > > > > > <pnrazdan@> > > > > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dear Sanat, > > > > > > > > > > > I have read most of the posts on the group as also your > > > > > > latest > > > > > > > > > > post > > > > > > > > > > > complaining that members are not reacting to your views. > > > > > > > > > > > In my opinion, the discussion in this group is one- sided. > > > > > > You > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > well > > > > > > > > > > > as one or two members are obsessed with " proving " that > > Vedic > > > > > > > > > > > astrology is a myth by trying to demolish arguments of all > > > > > > > > > > supporters > > > > > > > > > > > without any counter facts.Some members also use language > > of > > > > > > > > hatred > > > > > > > > > > > and make it almost a tirade against VA. It looks like the > > > > > > name > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > this group should have been kept as " Myth of Astrology " > > > > > > rather > > > > > > > > > > than > > > > > > > > > > > Science of Astrology. > > > > > > > > > > > I also wanted to elaborate on my views in support of VA > > but > > > > > > > > found > > > > > > > > > > no > > > > > > > > > > > use since the forum is not open and not evenly placed. I > > am > > > > > > > > sure > > > > > > > > > > many > > > > > > > > > > > others are feeling like that. > > > > > > > > > > > Unless you make the group balanced and improve the > > quality > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > discussions, I am afraid, it may not attract members > > > > > > > > contributions. > > > > > > > > > > > Regards, > > > > > > > > > > > P.N.Razdan > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <scienceofas trology%40g roups.com> , " Wes > > Stillwagon " > > > > > > > > > > > <wstillwagon1@ > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > <scienceofas trology%40g roups.com> , " sanat2221 " > > > > > > > > > > > > <sanatkumar_ jain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Resp. members, > > > > > > > > > > > > > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of > > > > > > > > discussion > > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > > > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am > > > > > > enclosing > > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > > > old > > > > > > > > > > > > > blog placed in the file section so that members may > > > > > > read it > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not > > > > > > > > reacting > > > > > > > > > > > with > > > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can > > > > > > > > interact > > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > > my > > > > > > > > > > > > > email sanatkumar_jain@ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > So far members have observed that supporters of > > > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > either > > > > > > > > > > > > > interested in by passing the main point or they have > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > faith > > > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > > > astrology without any scientific or logical support > > to > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > > > concept. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing > > others > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > follow > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > path of ignorance. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am > > > > > > always > > > > > > > > > > > > interested > > > > > > > > > > > > > in looking deep. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thanks > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > > > > > > > > > > > > Will you please like to ponder and instead of > > sticking > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > some > > > > > > > > > > > > > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not > > > > > > > > studied > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > depth > > > > > > > > > > > > > but you only have faith, because you have been > > informed > > > > > > > > like > > > > > > > > > > > this. > > > > > > > > > > > > So > > > > > > > > > > > > > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself > > > > > > as to > > > > > > > > > > > whether > > > > > > > > > > > > > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of > > > > > > > > science > > > > > > > > > > due > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the > > > > > > sentiments > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > want > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then > > > > > > let > > > > > > > > us > > > > > > > > > > > > examine > > > > > > > > > > > > > it and then there will be no question of hurting, > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > have > > > > > > > > > > > > > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you > > are > > > > > > > > > > standing > > > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which > > has > > > > > > > > been > > > > > > > > > > > > > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that > > > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > is a > > > > > > > > > > > > > science without knowing the story of other side. I can > > > > > > > > > > understand > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > problem of astrologer that they will loose their > > > > > > business > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > > > > > > are a client then you must have right to know the > > truth > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > > > call > > > > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > > > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At the time of formulating the astrological > > principles > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > early > > > > > > > > > > > > > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living > > > > > > being > > > > > > > > has > > > > > > > > > > > > > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. > > > > > > This > > > > > > > > > > > > religious > > > > > > > > > > > > > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called > > planet > > > > > > > > (Sun, > > > > > > > > > > > Moon, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those > > > > > > days > > > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > > > sages > > > > > > > > > > > > > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. > > Thus > > > > > > > > after > > > > > > > > > > > > > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the > > > > > > skill > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > predict > > > > > > > > > > > > > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so- > > > > > > called > > > > > > > > > > > grabbing > > > > > > > > > > > > > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and > > > > > > Ketu. > > > > > > > > > > > > > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse > > and > > > > > > > > its > > > > > > > > > > > > > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer > > > > > > > > > > donations > > > > > > > > > > > > etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, > > > > > > which > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > still > > > > > > > > > > > > > being followed. It was also religious concept that > > fate > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > everybody > > > > > > > > > > > > > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this > > > > > > > > > > situation, > > > > > > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > > > > > > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to > > predict > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > fate > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not > > > > > > predict > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > fate > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to > > formulate > > > > > > > > > > various > > > > > > > > > > > > > astrological principles on the basis of the then > > > > > > knowledge > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > sages > > > > > > > > > > > > > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. > > > > > > These > > > > > > > > > > > > principles > > > > > > > > > > > > > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was > > > > > > never > > > > > > > > > > > > percolated > > > > > > > > > > > > > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard > > > > > > barrier to > > > > > > > > > > learn > > > > > > > > > > > > > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these > > > > > > > > principles > > > > > > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > > > > > > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as > > > > > > > > Western > > > > > > > > > > > > system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. > > > > > > One > > > > > > > > > > group > > > > > > > > > > > > > belongs to astrologers who always try to support > > > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > due > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > their business considerations (these astrologers > > always > > > > > > try > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > fit > > > > > > > > > > > > > past event very precisely within some astrological > > > > > > > > principle > > > > > > > > > > > within > > > > > > > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > > > > > > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and > > > > > > > > faith > > > > > > > > > > > etc., > > > > > > > > > > > > > but they are unable to predict any future event. > > Because > > > > > > > > > > > > astrological > > > > > > > > > > > > > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too > > > > > > > > diabolical > > > > > > > > > > > > > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in > > > > > > > > fluke) > > > > > > > > > > may > > > > > > > > > > > > come > > > > > > > > > > > > > true then they start to harp on the same prediction > > and > > > > > > > > start > > > > > > > > > > > self > > > > > > > > > > > > > praising instead of applying the same socalled > > > > > > principle on > > > > > > > > > > other > > > > > > > > > > > > > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can > > > > > > only > > > > > > > > > > > mislead, > > > > > > > > > > > > > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. > > You > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > find > > > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other > > > > > > group > > > > > > > > > > (say > > > > > > > > > > > > > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against > > > > > > > > > > astrology. > > > > > > > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > > > > > > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to > > what > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > level > > > > > > > > > > > > > of information of sages about the Universe, who > > > > > > developed > > > > > > > > > > > > > astrological principles in primitive age and what > > > > > > procedure > > > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > > > > adopted to formulate various principles relating to > > > > > > > > Lordship, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated , Aspect, > > > > > > Vinshottary > > > > > > > > > > > > > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of > > principles > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > > > > following > > > > > > > > > > > > > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is > > given > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > subpara). > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs > > among > > > > > > > > seven > > > > > > > > > > > > > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the > > > > > > > > > > stationary > > > > > > > > > > > > > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on.......... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is > > > > > > enmity > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are > > > > > > > > enemy > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > each > > > > > > > > > > > > > other) ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and > > > > > > > > demons > > > > > > > > > > over > > > > > > > > > > > > > nector after sea-churning. ......... . > > > > > > > > > > > > > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect > > > > > > > > (full, > > > > > > > > > > > > quarter > > > > > > > > > > > > > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full > > > > > > aspect on > > > > > > > > > > > seventh > > > > > > > > > > > > > house) ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on the position of army in the battle > > > > > > field....... .... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets > > are > > > > > > > > > > exalted > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 > > > > > > deg. of > > > > > > > > > > Aries > > > > > > > > > > > > > sign) ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when > > > > > > duration > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > day is more in comparison to night...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most > > > > > > powerful > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > hub > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha > > > > > > whereas > > > > > > > > > > Venus > > > > > > > > > > > > (a > > > > > > > > > > > > > small planet) has 20 years ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on two triangles derived after working out the > > > > > > effect > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted..... .. > > > > > > > > > > > > > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various > > > > > > > > constellations > > > > > > > > > > > > between > > > > > > > > > > > > > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kratica was first constellation in Indian > > > > > > scriptures.. ........ > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days > > of > > > > > > a > > > > > > > > week > > > > > > > > > > > > > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > structure > > > > > > > > > > > > > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far > > > > > > away..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed > > retrograde > > > > > > > > motion > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse..... > > > > > > > > > > > > > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, > > Ketu > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > 180 > > > > > > > > > > > deg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > apart? > > > > > > > > > > > > > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse..... ...... > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of > > > > > > eclipse ? > > > > > > > > > > > > > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation > > > > > > month....... ... > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final > > > > > > question > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some > > > > > > one > > > > > > > > gave > > > > > > > > > > > > > answers to these questions then he will realize that > > > > > > entire > > > > > > > > > > > > > astrological principles are totally based on wrong > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > Universe. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Everybody may agree that every research is based on > > the > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > > > > > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was > > > > > > developed by > > > > > > > > > > sage > > > > > > > > > > > > > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth > > > > > > is in > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also > > > > > > believed > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > all > > > > > > > > > > > > > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may > > > > > > read > > > > > > > > any > > > > > > > > > > > old > > > > > > > > > > > > > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, > > whereas > > > > > > Moon > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > beyond > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sun. All constellations are situated in between > > Mercury > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > Moon. > > > > > > > > > > > > > You may be surprised to know that all astrological > > > > > > > > principles > > > > > > > > > > are > > > > > > > > > > > > > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self > > > > > > studying > > > > > > > > > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > since last 35 years and developed softwares to > > conclude > > > > > > > > > > correct > > > > > > > > > > > > > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same > > > > > > > > > > combination > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh > > > > > > > > logically > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > systematically over this subject and I find that > > > > > > Primitive > > > > > > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > > > > > > > (when astrology was developed) requires full > > > > > > overhauling in > > > > > > > > > > view > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > modern scientific astronomy, according to which > > > > > > primitive > > > > > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > > > > > > > > > > > > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > > > > > > > > > > > > astrology " Jyotish - > > > > > > > > > > > > > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This > > book > > > > > > > > > > contains > > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these > > > > > > principles on > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > basis > > > > > > > > > > > > > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads > > > > > > our > > > > > > > > > > sages > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > formulate these principles. This book was also > > > > > > published in > > > > > > > > > > > English > > > > > > > > > > > > > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 > > > > > > pages). > > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > > > book > > > > > > > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > > being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Refer http://www.bokklubb en.no/samboweb/ produkt.do? > > > > > > > > <http://www.bokklubb en.no/samboweb/ produkt.do?> > > > > > > > > > > > produktID=1759836 > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.thebookp lace.com/ bookplace/ results- asp? > > > > > > AUB=sanat% > > > > > > > > <http://www.thebookp lace.com/ bookplace/ results-asp? > > AUB=sanat%> > > > > > > > > > > > 20kumar% > > > > > > > > > > > > > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.aggarwal overseas. com/booksdetail. aspx? > > > > > > > > <http://www.aggarwal overseas. com/booksdetail. aspx?> > > > > > > > > > > > > > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, > > > > > > > > Neptune > > > > > > > > > > nor > > > > > > > > > > > > they > > > > > > > > > > > > > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due > > to > > > > > > > > > > presence > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have > > developed > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > concept > > > > > > > > > > > > > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It > > was > > > > > > > > > > > mentioned > > > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu > > came > > > > > > > > > > within > > > > > > > > > > > 14 > > > > > > > > > > > > > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full > > > > > > Moon). > > > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > > > > > nobody > > > > > > > > > > > > > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar > > > > > > eclipse > > > > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > > > > > Sun, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree > > > > > > > > > > respectively > > > > > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > > > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when > > Sun, > > > > > > Moon > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > Ketu > > > > > > > > > > > > > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively > > > > > > on 03- > > > > > > > > 03- > > > > > > > > > > > 1988 > > > > > > > > > > > > ( > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that > > > > > > Solar > > > > > > > > > > > eclipses > > > > > > > > > > > > > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu > > was > > > > > > > > more > > > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > > > > > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu > > was > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > 79.04 > > > > > > > > > > > > deg. > > > > > > > > > > > > > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and > > Moon > > > > > > were > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > > > 76.49 > > > > > > > > > > > > > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 > > (Rahu > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > > 15.14 > > > > > > > > > > > > > deg. away). > > > > > > > > > > > > > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, > > you > > > > > > > > will > > > > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > > > > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse > > > > > > > > occurred > > > > > > > > > > at > > > > > > > > > > > the > > > > > > > > > > > > > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon > > (though > > > > > > it > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > > not > > > > > > > > > > > > > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the > > > > > > basis > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > myth). > > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar > > eclipse, > > > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > > > > Moon > > > > > > > > > > > > > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be > > > > > > > > there. > > > > > > > > > > But > > > > > > > > > > > > As > > > > > > > > > > > > > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on > > 12- > > > > > > 11- > > > > > > > > 1985 > > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > 3- > > > > > > > > > > > > > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there > > were > > > > > > > > full > > > > > > > > > > > solar > > > > > > > > > > > > > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 > > > > > > degree > > > > > > > > > > > > > respectively. You will agree that when there were full > > > > > > > > solar > > > > > > > > > > > > eclipses > > > > > > > > > > > > > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at > > 206 > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > 166 > > > > > > > > > > > > degree > > > > > > > > > > > > > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may > > > > > > > > > > possible. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in > > > > > > > > > > almanac. > > > > > > > > > > > > Thus > > > > > > > > > > > > > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees > > > > > > > > > > respectively. > > > > > > > > > > > > All > > > > > > > > > > > > > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this > > > > > > > > > > > fundamental > > > > > > > > > > > > > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If > > > > > > you > > > > > > > > want > > > > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > > > > I > > > > > > > > > > > > > can give many more examples and very simple method of > > > > > > > > > > detecting > > > > > > > > > > > > them. > > > > > > > > > > > > > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a > > > > > > > > science > > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of > > > > > > > > astronomy > > > > > > > > > > + > > > > > > > > > > > > > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, > > > > > > > > psychology > > > > > > > > > > > > > (recently discovered and it was not known in > > primitive > > > > > > age) > > > > > > > > > > > played > > > > > > > > > > > > an > > > > > > > > > > > > > important role in handling a person by the astrologer > > > > > > due > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > immense > > > > > > > > > > > > > faith over astrology+astrologe r hence predictive > > > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > appears > > > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You > > will > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > > agree > > > > > > > > > > > > > with the above observation after going through my > > > > > > original > > > > > > > > > > > > > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre- > > > > > > > > decided > > > > > > > > > > as > > > > > > > > > > > was > > > > > > > > > > > > > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why > > we > > > > > > may > > > > > > > > try > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > do > > > > > > > > > > > > > some thing, because every thing will take place > > > > > > according > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > pre- > > > > > > > > > > > > > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of > > > > > > > > modifying > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > pre- > > > > > > > > > > > > > written destiny, because if we try to change only our > > > > > > fate, > > > > > > > > > > even > > > > > > > > > > > > then > > > > > > > > > > > > > all attached happening will automatically change > > > > > > creating a > > > > > > > > > > > > cascading > > > > > > > > > > > > > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written > > fate > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > every > > > > > > > > > > > > > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre- > > written > > > > > > or > > > > > > > > say > > > > > > > > > > pre- > > > > > > > > > > > > > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because > > > > > > when > > > > > > > > > > every > > > > > > > > > > > > Tom, > > > > > > > > > > > > > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to > > > > > > worship, > > > > > > > > good > > > > > > > > > > > deed > > > > > > > > > > > > > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain > > > > > > under > > > > > > > > > > change. > > > > > > > > > > > > You > > > > > > > > > > > > > will agree that astrology is totally based on > > > > > > mathematical > > > > > > > > > > > > > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > > never > > > > > > > > > > > > > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart > > > > > > > > cannot > > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > > > altered it means result of calculation or say > > > > > > prediction is > > > > > > > > > > also > > > > > > > > > > > > > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is > > > > > > ever > > > > > > > > > > > > prewritten) > > > > > > > > > > > > > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. > > > > > > > > because > > > > > > > > > > in > > > > > > > > > > > > > that case, if you like to say, then future events > > will > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > altered > > > > > > > > > > > > but > > > > > > > > > > > > > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked > > > > > > prediction > > > > > > > > > > can > > > > > > > > > > > be > > > > > > > > > > > > > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed > > > > > > transit > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > planets? > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Those who think that astrology is a science may be > > rest > > > > > > > > > > assured > > > > > > > > > > > > that > > > > > > > > > > > > > actually predictive astrology is not a science at > > all. > > > > > > Only > > > > > > > > > > > > astronomy > > > > > > > > > > > > > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) > > were > > > > > > > > used > > > > > > > > > > > > > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it > > > > > > appears > > > > > > > > > > > > correct. > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a > > > > > > > > myth. > > > > > > > > > > > Still > > > > > > > > > > > > if > > > > > > > > > > > > > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you > > contact > > > > > > > > The > > > > > > > > > > > James > > > > > > > > > > > > > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 > > > > > > > > prize > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His > > e- > > > > > > mail > > > > > > > > > > and > > > > > > > > > > > > > website is jref@ and http://www.randi. org > > > > > > > > <http://www.randi. org> Because modern > > > > > > > > > > > > > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are > > being > > > > > > > > used > > > > > > > > > > to > > > > > > > > > > > > > spread this myth in the cover up of science with > > vested > > > > > > > > > > business > > > > > > > > > > > > > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to > > fight > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > sort > > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information > > in > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > regard > > > > > > > > > > > > > and readers of the book are fully convinced that > > > > > > astrology > > > > > > > > > > > > > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to > > > > > > > > formulate > > > > > > > > > > > > > principles was neither logical nor based on correct > > > > > > > > > > information > > > > > > > > > > > of > > > > > > > > > > > > > Universe, solar system. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and > > > > > > > > facts, > > > > > > > > > > data > > > > > > > > > > > > > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward > > to > > > > > > > > join > > > > > > > > > > > hands > > > > > > > > > > > > > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). > > > > > > > > > > > > > Sanat Kumar Jain > > > > > > > > > > > > > Think differently, Think logically and Think > > > > > > scientifically > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Im afraid that your " logic " and " thinking " is a bit off > > > > > > base > > > > > > > > on > > > > > > > > > > > this > > > > > > > > > > > > topic. Swiss Psychiatrist, Alexander Newton, Copernicus, > > > > > > > > Albert > > > > > > > > > > > > Einstein, Kepler, Frank Brown, Northwestern University, > > > > > > Makai > > > > > > > > > > > Takata, > > > > > > > > > > > > Toho University, and thousands of qualified and honored > > > > > > > > > > scientists > > > > > > > > > > > > agree that there is indeed a science called astrology. > > > > > > Newton > > > > > > > > > > said > > > > > > > > > > > > the following to Hally (comet) fame when he challenged > > the > > > > > > > > > > validity > > > > > > > > > > > > of astrology, " Sir I've studied the subject, you have > > > > > > not! " > > > > > > > > > > > > YOu are way off base and your examination of the > > subject > > > > > > is > > > > > > > > > > > > incomplete, your conclusions are without merit. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Wes > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- End forwarded message --- > > > > --- End forwarded message --- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 30, 2008 Report Share Posted July 30, 2008 Resp Ron, Thanks for your comments. At least thanks for admitting that Hindu (vedic) and western and KP systems are not working correctly. Hence you have left them and adopted a new Khullar system. Khullar system is a mixture of Hindu and KP system; whereas KP system is a mixture of Hindu and Western system. So indirectly Khullar system has adopted a way of old wine in new bottle. I have also tried to fuse these both systems in many ways and result of fusion may be seen in `Eskain horoscope' in file section. But again like head and tail of a coin, some prediction may right randomly but same combination is not working in another horoscope. It will take some more time to you to realize that this system is also not working. Because basic building block of this system too, like all others, is based on sign, sign lord, cusp (which is a reverse copy of Vinshottary dasha " ), friendship, exalted etc. Until unless these building blocks of predictive astrology may have some scientific or logical theory behind them till then how you can say that some thing can be predicted. Because only that event can be predicted which is predestined and take your time to realize / think that even if a single event of future of any one life is fixed then whole sequence of event of the life may automatically be fixed. This in turn may fix the sequence of event of other life. Thus whole set up will be fixed. Then where is the use of knowing the future or where is the scope of amending any unpleasant event. You have mentioned an event of >>>>>>> one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw that she was likely to die the following day even though she had no known problems. He packed his family into the car and went long distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared fine, but the following day she died as indicated.<<<<<<<<<<. In this connection I will like to say that every predictive system either it may be astrology or KP system, Western system, Magi system, Lal kitab, numerology, Terro card, palmistry, Nadi shastra, face reading, signature reading, Vaastu, and so on have so many stories to tell but none of them is correct and all of them are psychologically correct or randomly correct. Thus there is no logic in believing any random forecast to amend our plan, decision in any respect. etc. If above story of death of mother is right in your opinion then the combination in horoscope by which death may be known would have been published in scientific journal and Khullar himself would have been appointed as chief boss of all Insurance companies to see as to whether life insurance of a person may be done or not. Thus you can see that only a single forecast based on combination of planets may lead to flow of money then what would happen if a system (khullar) would have been correct in many respect ie. It may tell about job, promotion, illness, health and so on. You may please intimate the planetary cuspal combination of the horoscope by which death was decoded for the benefit of the members of the forum, who may take benefit of such a combination and get insured. Do not take it otherwise, I am seriously requesting you and if you don't have that combination then you may intimate some other combination, or you may check yourself the viability of the system and get rid off. Our basic question is still pending that so long any one is not able to know that how basic building block of predictive astrology (sign lord etc. ) were formulated and whether procedure adopted has some scientific or logical approach till then we all are bound to fall in one or another trap. I am saying so that I find (not to say after how much labour) that all predictive principles were formulated on primitive myth, knowledge, tradition etc. and thus these principles have no logical or scientific support in view of modern knowledge. If Hindu (so called vedic) astrology would have been correct then what was the need to modify it as western and in turn as KP system and in turn as Khullar system and what was the need to create so many other systems like palmistry etc. It is not for improving an existing system, otherwise all previous systems would have been buried and some new correct system would have been survived and in turn every one would have been realized as to how our ole astrologer were wrong. But you can see that every system is going on, because every system has some business and followers. But you are right that after realizing some mistake you have jumped to some new system and it is correct way of analyzing a system, because you may not be a practitioner astrologer. Otherwise you may have stick to any one system and anyhow support that system like many astrologers. Thus you were initially right when you think : >>>>>>> Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful about the system. Here was an author who used a specific house system. specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions, a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me eager see why they were successful.<<<< and now no need to go for blind chart, you may check and announce when Osama will die or likewise some other definite prediction about any one in the world and continue to serve many Govt. Hope to receive some tested principles of khullar for definite prediction, which may not have some psychological mixture for the larger benefit of the members. Thanks, Yours truly, Sanat , " rongaunt au " <rongaunt wrote: > > > Hi Sanat, > > I respond to the extracted part of your message where you say: > > 'So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must > find out the procedure as to how all basic principles were > formulated and is their any scientific logic (in view of modern > knowledge) or not.' > > Now this is a most scientific approach you have taken!! You have > obviously already taken the stance that Mr Khullar's work is > bogus or you would not say 'falling into another trap by > Khullar'. > > I have serious doubts that you have studied his work at all, > never mind being intimately aquatinted with it. So your > unfounded prejudice for a scientific observer is obvious for all > to see, and is clearly hypocritical if you have not studied the > subject. I think most would agree your approach here at least is > MOST UNSCIENTIFIC. > > For your information the Khullar system is by far the most > scientific of all astrology I have come across. Mr Khullar > examined in detail both Western and Hindu astrology. He took > much from the traditions of the Hindus, and from Nadi astrology. > He went right to the source of their ideas and worked out > exactly why they were quoting certain important slokas. He > then incorporated these ideas into a major advancement on the KP > system using cuspal interlinks. > > I personally gave up believing authors have all (or even) some of > the answers all of the time, so I thoroughly check everything > stated. If I find a system not working as stated even once I > start having reservations. When I see it doesn't work quite a > few times I discard it. I have not been able to do this with > the Khullar system because it does work. > > Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful about the > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system. > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions, > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me > eager see why they were successful. > > I think any experienced astrologer would agree that even if you > ask a number of astrologers - all following the same system - > to assess or predict for an event they will invariably all come > up with a different answer. > > This does not happen in KCIL because all charts are rectified by > strict criteria, and invariably all students come up with the > same rectified chart. They all assess the event to get the > same answer because the cuspal interlinks are specific to the > chart and the rules are clearly laid down. This is extremely > scientific astrology. > > Apart from success in Blind Charts there has been extremely good > predictions ie births to the day and a narrow time frame. Also > one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw that she > was likely to die the following day even though she had no known > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared > fine, but the following day she died as indicated. How many > astrologers using other systems would be sufficiently confident > to do this? > > We have seen other things which validate the system, such as > Mr Khullar declaring that a certain person could not have been > born in a certain part of city because the events of the life and > family connections did not line up in regard to the relevant > house cusps. He then stated where the person was likely to have > been born. Checking with the native the position chosen was > almost spot on. There are many other reasons that indicate > that the system does work. > > So Sanat, first study this system in detail then pronounce on > it, that is the truly scientific way. Your opinion may then > carry some weight but until then it is difficult for anyone to > take your opinions (at least on this matter) seriously. > > > Ron Gaunt > > > > > On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:13:14 -0000, you wrote: > > >Dear Ron, > >Welcome in the forum for your first msg. > >You have good knowledge of astrology, still you are not convinced > >with any system and advocating an another Khullar system. I am > >reproducing your stand > > > >>>>>>>>Again most do not realise that it is possible to see anything > >and everything you want to see after the event with ANY and EVERY > >system, due to the enormous number of permutations. > >I think I have looked at just about every astrological system and > >method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, and others > >do not give consistently good results. <<<<<<<<<<< > > > >against you. Because it makes no difference as to whether we are > >linking any past event with some principles or we are linking future > >prediction with our psychology. If I will say your next month is not > >good and you have faith on predictive astrology, then every > >psychological odd in next month will be linked with this prediction > >and in sub-conscious mind you may bent upon to think that astrology > >is correct. So it has no relevancy at all. > > > >We in India are being befooled and cheated by astrologers since 2000 > >years without knowing that sign was devised by Greeks and adopted by > >us without any religious support. Because mass population always > >remains uneducated and educated lot are being lured by crowd of heads > >on shoulders (without knowing that their heads are empty in this > >respect) who follows some traditions. Cunning or ignorant astrologers > >after reading some latest books on astrology, full with praise of > >sages and latest data of solar system thinks (and propagate) that our > >sages were well known with modern data. Thus they are able to befool > >ignorant public in the name of Ved, Sage, Myth and so on with the > >help of Media and publicity. > > > >Bare fact is this that our sages were very logical and open to all > >sort of logical knowledge (which can not be questioned). They were > >very clear when they appreciate the knowledge of Greeks because they > >were of the opinion " tamso ma jyotirgamay " means we must go ahead > >towards knowledge from ignorance. For the purpose of knowledge they > >were following " Vasudevam kutumbkam " means whole world is a family. > >Thus they adopted sign system and other knowledge from Greeks and > >mixed it with our constellational system and religious concept of > >formation of universe. Thus our sages formulated basic principles > >like sign lord, aspect, friendship, exalted, dasha and so on (refer > >my book in Hindi or in English for detailed procedure etc.), by which > >they were able to forecast some thing which happens to be true > >(psychologically, and this phenomena was not known till 18th > >century). Thus Greeks then Romans adopted these principles and > >subsequently slightly modified (aspect) as Western system, whereas > >sign lord etc are same. As we Indians are not aware that concept of > >sign belongs to Greek / Babylonia likewise Western countries are not > >aware that sign lord etc. principles were formulated by our sages on > >the basis of religious myth that Earth is stationary, Sun is nearer > >then Moon, all constellation are just above Moon and so on. In this > >way where we Indians are being befooled in the name of Ved, sages; > >likewise western countries were being befooled that predictive > >principals were formulated by Ptolemy and now everyone is after > >socalled " Vedic astrology " without knowing that there is no > >predictive astrology in Ved. Thus predictive astrology is merely a > >psychological game like magic. We must enjoy this game but must not > >be lured like a fool who may be lured by creation of currency notes > >from a box by a magician and left his job in the hope to create note > >from that box. > > > >So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must find > >out the procedure as to how all basic principles were formulated and > >is their any scientific logic (in view of modern knowledge) or not. > > > >Some points were discussed in brief (refer SOA_______ files in file > >section) because followers of astrology, could not stand after > >raising very simple arguments and further discussion could not be > >done. I hope that after +35 years of experience you may like to > >discuss on any point. > > > >Thanks, > >Yours truly, > >Sanat > > > >PS: Sh. Razdan Ji, Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji may please > >come forward with reply on my comments. Silence is not a solution. > >Silently reading is also not a solution. When we are in a forum then > >either we must educate other members or may improve our knowledge. > >Remaining " as it is " is not a good sign. For improvement we must have > >inquisitive mind. I am ready to learn from expert astrologers but not > >as blind supporter. If Astrology is science then it must cross all > >questions and must have logical answers to all sort of doubt. > > > > > > > > > > , " rongaunt@ au " > ><rongaunt@> wrote: > >> > >> > >> Friends, > >> > >> I am new to the forum, but have a fair knowledge of astrology as > >> it has been my hobby for over 35 years. I am all for > >> questioning the validity of the subject, as I suspect that many > >> many astrologers, are very gullible because they have not > >> studied deeply enough to realise that the permutations in > >> astrology run into the millions. Again most do not realise that > >> it is possible to see anything and everything you want to see > >> after the event with ANY and EVERY system, due to the enormous > >> number of permutations. And f course, very few if any, go on to > >> achieve good predictions. > >> > >> I think I have looked at just about every astrological system and > >> method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, and > >> others do not give consistently good results. It has been my aim > >> to find one that does work, and to this end I started possibly > >> the first of the regulat Blind Charts tests on the Web many years > >> ago. I hoped to find a system that really did work. It is > >> only in the last year or so that I have found such a system, > >> which drew my attention because the students of a particular > >> astrological institution kept getting correct results in our > >> Blind Chart tests. The system is the Khullar method of Cuspal > >> Interlinks. > >> > >> Anyhow my intention in writing this mail was to point out that it > >> is not very practical to furnish personal data and then predict > >> from it, because the waiting time for the prediction means > >> everyone will lose interest long before the event does or does > >> not happen. It would be much better to get members to furnish > >> data, to include some events and family birthdates in order to be > >> able to rectify the chart, and give say four options which > >> participants will check to find out which of these options > >> happened on a given date. This is real life astrology and is > >> almost as good as future prediction, because you use exactly the > >> same methods on an unknown event. > >> > >> > >> Ron Gaunt > >> > >> > >> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:44:09 -0000, you wrote: > >> > >> >Shri Jagannathan Kapisthalamji, > >> >Namaskar! > >> ><If you can furnish your date of birth,place and time of birth let > >us > >> >try some astrological predictions and see whether they work.?> > >> > > >> >My late maternal grandfather used to make predictions from > >horoscopes > >> >prepared from Grahalaghava panchangas, which were anything but > >> >correct, and that was admitted by the Panchanga makers > >themselves! > >> >Quite often his predictions proved correct! > >> > > >> >Does that prove that any predictive gimmicks are either scientific > >or > >> >Vedic? No. That cannot be so, since Grahalaghava was/is neither a > >> >Vedic work nor a scientific one! > >> > > >> >Thus even if some astrologers are able to make some correct > >> >predictions about some one sometimes, that never means/proves that > >> >those predictions were either on a scientific basis or as per the > >> >Vedic lore! All that proves is that sometimes some guess works do > >> >prove correct and that is why more often than not, correct > >preictions > >> >are made only from incorrect data, whether birth particulars or > >> >astronomical data, since Lahiri Ayanamsha in itself is the most > >> >monstrous ayanamsha that could ever have been invented by any > >> >charlatan!! And it is on the basis of only that ayanamsha that > >ninety- > >> >nine per cent predictions are made these days! > >> >With regards, > >> >A K Kaul > >> > > >> > , " Jagannathan > >Kapisthalam " > >> ><jagannathankr@> wrote: > >> >> > >> >> Dear Sir, > >> >> Your article is quite interesting.If you can furnish your date of > >> >> birth,place and time of birth let us try some astrological > >> >predictions and > >> >> see whether they work.?This is only out of academic interest. > >> >> Regards, > >> >> jagannathan. > >> >> > >> >> On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > Resp. members, > >> >> > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of discussion > >on > >> >> > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am enclosing my > >old > >> >> > blog placed in the file section so that members may read it and > >> >> > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not reacting > >> >with a > >> >> > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though they are > >> >> > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can interact > >on > >> >my > >> >> > email sanatkumar_jain@ <sanatkumar_jain%40rediffmail.com> > >> >> > > >> >> > So far members have observed that supporters of astrology are > >> >either > >> >> > interested in by passing the main point or they have only > >faith on > >> >> > astrology without any scientific or logical support to any > >> >concept. > >> >> > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others to > >follow > >> >the > >> >> > path of ignorance. > >> >> > > >> >> > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am always > >> >interested > >> >> > in looking deep. > >> >> > > >> >> > Thanks > >> >> > Sanat > >> >> > > >> >> > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > >> >> > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to some > >> >> > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not studied > >in > >> >depth > >> >> > but you only have faith, because you have been informed like > >> >this. So > >> >> > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to > >> >whether > >> >> > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of science > >due > >> >to > >> >> > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments of > >> >> > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only > >want to > >> >> > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let us > >> >examine > >> >> > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because you > >have > >> >> > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are > >standing > >> >in > >> >> > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has been > >> >> > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology is a > >> >> > science without knowing the story of other side. I can > >understand > >> >the > >> >> > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business but > >if > >> >you > >> >> > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or > >call an > >> >> > astrologer in the consumer forum. > >> >> > > >> >> > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in early > >> >> > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being has > >> >> > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > >> >religious > >> >> > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet (Sun, > >> >Moon, > >> >> > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days only > >> >sages > >> >> > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus after > >> >> > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill to > >> >predict > >> >> > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-called > >> >grabbing > >> >> > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > >> >> > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > >> >> > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer > >donations > >> >etc. > >> >> > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which is > >> >still > >> >> > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > >> >everybody > >> >> > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this > >situation, > >> >it > >> >> > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the > >fate > >> >of > >> >> > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict the > >> >fate of > >> >> > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate various > >> >> > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge of > >> >sages > >> >> > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > >> >principles > >> >> > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > >> >> > > >> >> > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > >> >percolated > >> >> > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to > >learn > >> >> > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these principles > >were > >> >> > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as Western > >> >system. > >> >> > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One group > >> >> > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology due > >to > >> >> > their business considerations (these astrologers always try to > >fit > >> >> > past event very precisely within some astrological principle > >> >within a > >> >> > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and faith > >etc., > >> >> > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > >> >astrological > >> >> > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too diabolical > >> >> > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in fluke) > >may > >> >come > >> >> > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and start > >self > >> >> > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on > >other > >> >> > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only > >mislead, > >> >> > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can > >find > >> >that > >> >> > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group (say > >> >> > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against > >astrology. > >> >But > >> >> > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was the > >> >level > >> >> > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > >> >> > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure was > >> >> > adopted to formulate various principles relating to Lordship, > >> >> > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > >> >> > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > >> >following > >> >> > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in > >> >subpara). > >> >> > > >> >> > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among seven > >> >> > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > >> >> > > >> >> > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the > >stationary > >> >> > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > >> >> > > >> >> > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity and > >> >> > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are enemy > >of > >> >each > >> >> > other) ? > >> >> > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and demons > >over > >> >> > nector after sea-churning……….. > >> >> > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect (full, > >> >quarter > >> >> > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on > >> >seventh > >> >> > house) ? > >> >> > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > >> >> > > >> >> > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are > >exalted > >> >and > >> >> > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of > >Aries > >> >> > sign) ? > >> >> > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration of > >the > >> >> > day is more in comparison to night…… > >> >> > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful and > >hub > >> >of > >> >> > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas > >Venus > >> >(a > >> >> > small planet) has 20 years ? > >> >> > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect of > >> >> > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > >> >> > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various constellations > >> >between > >> >> > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > >> >> > > >> >> > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > >> >> > > >> >> > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a week > >> >> > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > >> >> > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the > >> >structure > >> >> > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > >> >> > > >> >> > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde motion > >of > >> >> > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > >> >> > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are 180 > >> >deg. > >> >> > apart? > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > >> >> > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > >> >> > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > >> >> > > >> >> > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question as > >to > >> >> > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one gave > >> >> > answers to these questions then he will realize that entire > >> >> > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept of > >> >> > Universe. > >> >> > > >> >> > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > >> >> > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by > >sage > >> >> > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in the > >> >> > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed in > >all > >> >> > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read any > >old > >> >> > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon is > >> >beyond > >> >> > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and > >Moon. > >> >> > You may be surprised to know that all astrological principles > >are > >> >> > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > >> >astrology > >> >> > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude correct > >> >> > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same > >combination is > >> >> > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh logically > >and > >> >> > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive > >concept > >> >> > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in > >view > >> >of > >> >> > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive > >concept > >> >of > >> >> > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > >> >> > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > >> >astrology " Jyotish - > >> >> > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book > >contains > >> >the > >> >> > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on > >the > >> >basis > >> >> > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our > >sages to > >> >> > formulate these principles. This book was also published in > >> >English > >> >> > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). The > >> >book is > >> >> > being marketed in USA /UK etc. > >> >> > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > >> >produktID=1759836 > >> >> > > >> >> > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp?AUB=sanat% > >> >20kumar% > >> >> > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > >> >> > > >> >> > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > >> >> > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > >> >> > > >> >> > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, Neptune > >nor > >> >they > >> >> > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to > >presence > >> >of > >> >> > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed the > >> >concept > >> >> > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was > >> >mentioned in > >> >> > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came > >within 14 > >> >> > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). But > >> >nobody > >> >> > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse > >when > >> >Sun, > >> >> > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree > >respectively > >> >on > >> >> > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon > >and > >> >Ketu > >> >> > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03- 03- > >> >1988 ( > >> >> > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar > >eclipses > >> >> > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was more > >then > >> >> > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at > >79.04 > >> >deg. > >> >> > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were at > >> >76.49 > >> >> > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu was > >15.14 > >> >> > deg. away). > >> >> > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you will > >also > >> >> > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse occurred > >at > >> >the > >> >> > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it was > >not > >> >> > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis of > >> >myth). > >> >> > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, when > >Moon > >> >> > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be there. > >But > >> >As > >> >> > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11- 1985 > >> >and 3- > >> >> > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were full > >> >solar > >> >> > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > >> >> > respectively. You will agree that when there were full solar > >> >eclipses > >> >> > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and 166 > >> >degree > >> >> > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may > >possible. > >> >> > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in > >almanac. > >> >Thus > >> >> > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees > >respectively. > >> >All > >> >> > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this > >fundamental > >> >> > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you want > >> >then I > >> >> > can give many more examples and very simple method of > >detecting > >> >them. > >> >> > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a science > >but > >> >in > >> >> > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of astronomy + > >> >> > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, psychology > >> >> > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) > >> >played an > >> >> > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due to > >> >immense > >> >> > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology > >> >appears to > >> >> > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will also > >> >agree > >> >> > with the above observation after going through my original > >> >> > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre- decided > >as > >> >was > >> >> > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may try > >to > >> >do > >> >> > some thing, because every thing will take place according to > >pre- > >> >> > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of modifying > >that > >> >pre- > >> >> > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, > >even > >> >then > >> >> > all attached happening will automatically change creating a > >> >cascading > >> >> > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of every > >> >> > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or say > >pre- > >> >> > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when > >every > >> >Tom, > >> >> > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, good > >> >deed > >> >> > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under > >change. > >> >You > >> >> > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > >> >> > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and can > >> >never > >> >> > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart cannot be > >> >> > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is > >also > >> >> > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > >> >prewritten) > >> >> > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. because > >in > >> >> > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be > >altered > >> >but > >> >> > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction > >can be > >> >> > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit of > >> >> > planets? > >> >> > > >> >> > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest > >assured > >> >that > >> >> > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > >> >astronomy > >> >> > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > >> >> > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > >> >correct. > >> >> > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a myth. > >> >Still if > >> >> > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact The > >James > >> >> > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 prize to > >> >> > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-mail and > >> >> > website is jref@ <jref%40randi.org> and > >> >http://www.randi.orgBecause modern > >> >> > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being used > >to > >> >> > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested > >business > >> >> > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight this > >sort > >> >of > >> >> > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this > >regard > >> >> > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > >> >> > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to formulate > >> >> > principles was neither logical nor based on correct > >information of > >> >> > Universe, solar system. > >> >> > > >> >> > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and facts, > >data > >> >> > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to join > >> >hands > >> >> > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). > >> >> > Sanat Kumar Jain > >> >> > Think differently, Think logically and Think scientifically > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > > >> >> > >> > > >> > > >> > > >> >--- > >> > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted July 31, 2008 Report Share Posted July 31, 2008 Dear Jain Sahib, Excellent analysis! Congratulations for dissecting such a terse subject as " astrology " --- about which literally trillions of volumes have been written---in such a simple yet pithy manner! Regards, AKK , " sanat2221 " <sanatkumar_jain wrote: > > > Resp Ron, > Thanks for your comments. > At least thanks for admitting that Hindu (vedic) and western and KP > systems are not working correctly. Hence you have left them and > adopted a new Khullar system. > > Khullar system is a mixture of Hindu and KP system; whereas KP system > is a mixture of Hindu and Western system. So indirectly Khullar > system has adopted a way of old wine in new bottle. I have also tried > to fuse these both systems in many ways and result of fusion may be > seen in `Eskain horoscope' in file section. But again like head and > tail of a coin, some prediction may right randomly but same > combination is not working in another horoscope. It will take some > more time to you to realize that this system is also not working. > Because basic building block of this system too, like all others, is > based on sign, sign lord, cusp (which is a reverse copy of > Vinshottary dasha " ), friendship, exalted etc. Until unless these > building blocks of predictive astrology may have some scientific or > logical theory behind them till then how you can say that some thing > can be predicted. Because only that event can be predicted which is > predestined and take your time to realize / think that even if a > single event of future of any one life is fixed then whole sequence > of event of the life may automatically be fixed. This in turn may fix > the sequence of event of other life. Thus whole set up will be fixed. > Then where is the use of knowing the future or where is the scope of > amending any unpleasant event. > > You have mentioned an event of > >>>>>>> one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw that > she > was likely to die the following day even though she had no known > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared > fine, but the following day she died as indicated.<<<<<<<<<<. In this > connection I will like to say that every predictive system either it > may be astrology or KP system, Western system, Magi system, Lal > kitab, numerology, Terro card, palmistry, Nadi shastra, face > reading, signature reading, Vaastu, and so on have so many stories to > tell but none of them is correct and all of them are psychologically > correct or randomly correct. Thus there is no logic in believing any > random forecast to amend our plan, decision in any respect. etc. If > above story of death of mother is right in your opinion then the > combination in horoscope by which death may be known would have been > published in scientific journal and Khullar himself would have been > appointed as chief boss of all Insurance companies to see as to > whether life insurance of a person may be done or not. Thus you can > see that only a single forecast based on combination of planets may > lead to flow of money then what would happen if a system (khullar) > would have been correct in many respect ie. It may tell about job, > promotion, illness, health and so on. You may please intimate the > planetary cuspal combination of the horoscope by which death was > decoded for the benefit of the members of the forum, who may take > benefit of such a combination and get insured. Do not take it > otherwise, I am seriously requesting you and if you don't have that > combination then you may intimate some other combination, or you may > check yourself the viability of the system and get rid off. > > Our basic question is still pending that so long any one is not able > to know that how basic building block of predictive astrology (sign > lord etc. ) were formulated and whether procedure adopted has some > scientific or logical approach till then we all are bound to fall in > one or another trap. I am saying so that I find (not to say after how > much labour) that all predictive principles were formulated on > primitive myth, knowledge, tradition etc. and thus these principles > have no logical or scientific support in view of modern knowledge. If > Hindu (so called vedic) astrology would have been correct then what > was the need to modify it as western and in turn as KP system and in > turn as Khullar system and what was the need to create so many other > systems like palmistry etc. It is not for improving an existing > system, otherwise all previous systems would have been buried and > some new correct system would have been survived and in turn every > one would have been realized as to how our ole astrologer were wrong. > But you can see that every system is going on, because every system > has some business and followers. But you are right that after > realizing some mistake you have jumped to some new system and it is > correct way of analyzing a system, because you may not be a > practitioner astrologer. Otherwise you may have stick to any one > system and anyhow support that system like many astrologers. > > Thus you were initially right when you think : > >>>>>>> Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful about > the > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system. > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions, > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me > eager see why they were successful.<<<< > and now no need to go for blind chart, you may check and announce > when Osama will die or likewise some other definite prediction about > any one in the world and continue to serve many Govt. > > Hope to receive some tested principles of khullar for definite > prediction, which may not have some psychological mixture for the > larger benefit of the members. > > Thanks, > > Yours truly, > Sanat > > > > > > , " rongaunt@ au " > <rongaunt@> wrote: > > > > > > Hi Sanat, > > > > I respond to the extracted part of your message where you say: > > > > 'So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must > > find out the procedure as to how all basic principles were > > formulated and is their any scientific logic (in view of modern > > knowledge) or not.' > > > > Now this is a most scientific approach you have taken!! You have > > obviously already taken the stance that Mr Khullar's work is > > bogus or you would not say 'falling into another trap by > > Khullar'. > > > > I have serious doubts that you have studied his work at all, > > never mind being intimately aquatinted with it. So your > > unfounded prejudice for a scientific observer is obvious for all > > to see, and is clearly hypocritical if you have not studied the > > subject. I think most would agree your approach here at least is > > MOST UNSCIENTIFIC. > > > > For your information the Khullar system is by far the most > > scientific of all astrology I have come across. Mr Khullar > > examined in detail both Western and Hindu astrology. He took > > much from the traditions of the Hindus, and from Nadi astrology. > > He went right to the source of their ideas and worked out > > exactly why they were quoting certain important slokas. He > > then incorporated these ideas into a major advancement on the KP > > system using cuspal interlinks. > > > > I personally gave up believing authors have all (or even) some of > > the answers all of the time, so I thoroughly check everything > > stated. If I find a system not working as stated even once I > > start having reservations. When I see it doesn't work quite a > > few times I discard it. I have not been able to do this with > > the Khullar system because it does work. > > > > Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful about the > > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system. > > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions, > > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully > > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any > > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct > > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led > > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting > > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the > > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me > > eager see why they were successful. > > > > I think any experienced astrologer would agree that even if you > > ask a number of astrologers - all following the same system - > > to assess or predict for an event they will invariably all come > > up with a different answer. > > > > This does not happen in KCIL because all charts are rectified by > > strict criteria, and invariably all students come up with the > > same rectified chart. They all assess the event to get the > > same answer because the cuspal interlinks are specific to the > > chart and the rules are clearly laid down. This is extremely > > scientific astrology. > > > > Apart from success in Blind Charts there has been extremely good > > predictions ie births to the day and a narrow time frame. Also > > one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw that she > > was likely to die the following day even though she had no known > > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long > > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared > > fine, but the following day she died as indicated. How many > > astrologers using other systems would be sufficiently confident > > to do this? > > > > We have seen other things which validate the system, such as > > Mr Khullar declaring that a certain person could not have been > > born in a certain part of city because the events of the life and > > family connections did not line up in regard to the relevant > > house cusps. He then stated where the person was likely to have > > been born. Checking with the native the position chosen was > > almost spot on. There are many other reasons that indicate > > that the system does work. > > > > So Sanat, first study this system in detail then pronounce on > > it, that is the truly scientific way. Your opinion may then > > carry some weight but until then it is difficult for anyone to > > take your opinions (at least on this matter) seriously. > > > > > > Ron Gaunt > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:13:14 -0000, you wrote: > > > > >Dear Ron, > > >Welcome in the forum for your first msg. > > >You have good knowledge of astrology, still you are not convinced > > >with any system and advocating an another Khullar system. I am > > >reproducing your stand > > > > > >>>>>>>>Again most do not realise that it is possible to see > anything > > >and everything you want to see after the event with ANY and EVERY > > >system, due to the enormous number of permutations. > > >I think I have looked at just about every astrological system and > > >method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, and > others > > >do not give consistently good results. <<<<<<<<<<< > > > > > >against you. Because it makes no difference as to whether we are > > >linking any past event with some principles or we are linking > future > > >prediction with our psychology. If I will say your next month is > not > > >good and you have faith on predictive astrology, then every > > >psychological odd in next month will be linked with this > prediction > > >and in sub-conscious mind you may bent upon to think that > astrology > > >is correct. So it has no relevancy at all. > > > > > >We in India are being befooled and cheated by astrologers since > 2000 > > >years without knowing that sign was devised by Greeks and adopted > by > > >us without any religious support. Because mass population always > > >remains uneducated and educated lot are being lured by crowd of > heads > > >on shoulders (without knowing that their heads are empty in this > > >respect) who follows some traditions. Cunning or ignorant > astrologers > > >after reading some latest books on astrology, full with praise of > > >sages and latest data of solar system thinks (and propagate) that > our > > >sages were well known with modern data. Thus they are able to > befool > > >ignorant public in the name of Ved, Sage, Myth and so on with the > > >help of Media and publicity. > > > > > >Bare fact is this that our sages were very logical and open to all > > >sort of logical knowledge (which can not be questioned). They were > > >very clear when they appreciate the knowledge of Greeks because > they > > >were of the opinion " tamso ma jyotirgamay " means we must go ahead > > >towards knowledge from ignorance. For the purpose of knowledge > they > > >were following " Vasudevam kutumbkam " means whole world is a > family. > > >Thus they adopted sign system and other knowledge from Greeks and > > >mixed it with our constellational system and religious concept of > > >formation of universe. Thus our sages formulated basic principles > > >like sign lord, aspect, friendship, exalted, dasha and so on > (refer > > >my book in Hindi or in English for detailed procedure etc.), by > which > > >they were able to forecast some thing which happens to be true > > >(psychologically, and this phenomena was not known till 18th > > >century). Thus Greeks then Romans adopted these principles and > > >subsequently slightly modified (aspect) as Western system, whereas > > >sign lord etc are same. As we Indians are not aware that concept > of > > >sign belongs to Greek / Babylonia likewise Western countries are > not > > >aware that sign lord etc. principles were formulated by our sages > on > > >the basis of religious myth that Earth is stationary, Sun is > nearer > > >then Moon, all constellation are just above Moon and so on. In > this > > >way where we Indians are being befooled in the name of Ved, sages; > > >likewise western countries were being befooled that predictive > > >principals were formulated by Ptolemy and now everyone is after > > >socalled " Vedic astrology " without knowing that there is no > > >predictive astrology in Ved. Thus predictive astrology is merely a > > >psychological game like magic. We must enjoy this game but must > not > > >be lured like a fool who may be lured by creation of currency > notes > > >from a box by a magician and left his job in the hope to create > note > > >from that box. > > > > > >So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must find > > >out the procedure as to how all basic principles were formulated > and > > >is their any scientific logic (in view of modern knowledge) or > not. > > > > > >Some points were discussed in brief (refer SOA_______ files in > file > > >section) because followers of astrology, could not stand after > > >raising very simple arguments and further discussion could not be > > >done. I hope that after +35 years of experience you may like to > > >discuss on any point. > > > > > >Thanks, > > >Yours truly, > > >Sanat > > > > > >PS: Sh. Razdan Ji, Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji may please > > >come forward with reply on my comments. Silence is not a solution. > > >Silently reading is also not a solution. When we are in a forum > then > > >either we must educate other members or may improve our knowledge. > > >Remaining " as it is " is not a good sign. For improvement we must > have > > >inquisitive mind. I am ready to learn from expert astrologers but > not > > >as blind supporter. If Astrology is science then it must cross all > > >questions and must have logical answers to all sort of doubt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rongaunt@ au " > > ><rongaunt@> wrote: > > >> > > >> > > >> Friends, > > >> > > >> I am new to the forum, but have a fair knowledge of astrology as > > >> it has been my hobby for over 35 years. I am all for > > >> questioning the validity of the subject, as I suspect that many > > >> many astrologers, are very gullible because they have not > > >> studied deeply enough to realise that the permutations in > > >> astrology run into the millions. Again most do not realise that > > >> it is possible to see anything and everything you want to see > > >> after the event with ANY and EVERY system, due to the enormous > > >> number of permutations. And f course, very few if any, go on to > > >> achieve good predictions. > > >> > > >> I think I have looked at just about every astrological system and > > >> method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, and > > >> others do not give consistently good results. It has been my aim > > >> to find one that does work, and to this end I started possibly > > >> the first of the regulat Blind Charts tests on the Web many years > > >> ago. I hoped to find a system that really did work. It is > > >> only in the last year or so that I have found such a system, > > >> which drew my attention because the students of a particular > > >> astrological institution kept getting correct results in our > > >> Blind Chart tests. The system is the Khullar method of Cuspal > > >> Interlinks. > > >> > > >> Anyhow my intention in writing this mail was to point out that it > > >> is not very practical to furnish personal data and then predict > > >> from it, because the waiting time for the prediction means > > >> everyone will lose interest long before the event does or does > > >> not happen. It would be much better to get members to furnish > > >> data, to include some events and family birthdates in order to be > > >> able to rectify the chart, and give say four options which > > >> participants will check to find out which of these options > > >> happened on a given date. This is real life astrology and is > > >> almost as good as future prediction, because you use exactly the > > >> same methods on an unknown event. > > >> > > >> > > >> Ron Gaunt > > >> > > >> > > >> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:44:09 -0000, you wrote: > > >> > > >> >Shri Jagannathan Kapisthalamji, > > >> >Namaskar! > > >> ><If you can furnish your date of birth,place and time of birth > let > > >us > > >> >try some astrological predictions and see whether they work.?> > > >> > > > >> >My late maternal grandfather used to make predictions from > > >horoscopes > > >> >prepared from Grahalaghava panchangas, which were anything but > > >> >correct, and that was admitted by the Panchanga makers > > >themselves! > > >> >Quite often his predictions proved correct! > > >> > > > >> >Does that prove that any predictive gimmicks are either > scientific > > >or > > >> >Vedic? No. That cannot be so, since Grahalaghava was/is > neither a > > >> >Vedic work nor a scientific one! > > >> > > > >> >Thus even if some astrologers are able to make some correct > > >> >predictions about some one sometimes, that never means/proves > that > > >> >those predictions were either on a scientific basis or as per > the > > >> >Vedic lore! All that proves is that sometimes some guess works > do > > >> >prove correct and that is why more often than not, correct > > >preictions > > >> >are made only from incorrect data, whether birth particulars or > > >> >astronomical data, since Lahiri Ayanamsha in itself is the most > > >> >monstrous ayanamsha that could ever have been invented by any > > >> >charlatan!! And it is on the basis of only that ayanamsha that > > >ninety- > > >> >nine per cent predictions are made these days! > > >> >With regards, > > >> >A K Kaul > > >> > > > >> > , " Jagannathan > > >Kapisthalam " > > >> ><jagannathankr@> wrote: > > >> >> > > >> >> Dear Sir, > > >> >> Your article is quite interesting.If you can furnish your > date of > > >> >> birth,place and time of birth let us try some astrological > > >> >predictions and > > >> >> see whether they work.?This is only out of academic interest. > > >> >> Regards, > > >> >> jagannathan. > > >> >> > > >> >> On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Resp. members, > > >> >> > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of > discussion > > >on > > >> >> > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am enclosing > my > > >old > > >> >> > blog placed in the file section so that members may read it > and > > >> >> > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not > reacting > > >> >with a > > >> >> > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though they > are > > >> >> > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can > interact > > >on > > >> >my > > >> >> > email sanatkumar_jain@ <sanatkumar_jain%40rediffmail.com> > > >> >> > > > >> >> > So far members have observed that supporters of astrology > are > > >> >either > > >> >> > interested in by passing the main point or they have only > > >faith on > > >> >> > astrology without any scientific or logical support to any > > >> >concept. > > >> >> > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others to > > >follow > > >> >the > > >> >> > path of ignorance. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am always > > >> >interested > > >> >> > in looking deep. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Thanks > > >> >> > Sanat > > >> >> > > > >> >> > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > >> >> > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to > some > > >> >> > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not > studied > > >in > > >> >depth > > >> >> > but you only have faith, because you have been informed > like > > >> >this. So > > >> >> > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as to > > >> >whether > > >> >> > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of > science > > >due > > >> >to > > >> >> > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the sentiments > of > > >> >> > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I only > > >want to > > >> >> > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let > us > > >> >examine > > >> >> > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because > you > > >have > > >> >> > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are > > >standing > > >> >in > > >> >> > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has > been > > >> >> > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology > is a > > >> >> > science without knowing the story of other side. I can > > >understand > > >> >the > > >> >> > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business > but > > >if > > >> >you > > >> >> > are a client then you must have right to know the truth or > > >call an > > >> >> > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in > early > > >> >> > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being > has > > >> >> > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. This > > >> >religious > > >> >> > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet > (Sun, > > >> >Moon, > > >> >> > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days > only > > >> >sages > > >> >> > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus > after > > >> >> > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill > to > > >> >predict > > >> >> > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so- called > > >> >grabbing > > >> >> > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and Ketu. > > >> >> > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and its > > >> >> > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer > > >donations > > >> >etc. > > >> >> > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, which > is > > >> >still > > >> >> > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate of > > >> >everybody > > >> >> > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this > > >situation, > > >> >it > > >> >> > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict the > > >fate > > >> >of > > >> >> > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict > the > > >> >fate of > > >> >> > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate > various > > >> >> > astrological principles on the basis of the then knowledge > of > > >> >sages > > >> >> > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. These > > >> >principles > > >> >> > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > > >> >percolated > > >> >> > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier to > > >learn > > >> >> > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these > principles > > >were > > >> >> > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as > Western > > >> >system. > > >> >> > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One > group > > >> >> > belongs to astrologers who always try to support astrology > due > > >to > > >> >> > their business considerations (these astrologers always try > to > > >fit > > >> >> > past event very precisely within some astrological > principle > > >> >within a > > >> >> > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and > faith > > >etc., > > >> >> > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > > >> >astrological > > >> >> > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too > diabolical > > >> >> > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in > fluke) > > >may > > >> >come > > >> >> > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and > start > > >self > > >> >> > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle on > > >other > > >> >> > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only > > >mislead, > > >> >> > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You can > > >find > > >> >that > > >> >> > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other group > (say > > >> >> > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against > > >astrology. > > >> >But > > >> >> > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what was > the > > >> >level > > >> >> > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > >> >> > astrological principles in primitive age and what procedure > was > > >> >> > adopted to formulate various principles relating to > Lordship, > > >> >> > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, Vinshottary > > >> >> > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles then > > >> >following > > >> >> > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in > > >> >subpara). > > >> >> > > > >> >> > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among > seven > > >> >> > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > >> >> > > > >> >> > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the > > >stationary > > >> >> > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is enmity > and > > >> >> > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are > enemy > > >of > > >> >each > > >> >> > other) ? > > >> >> > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and > demons > > >over > > >> >> > nector after sea-churning……….. > > >> >> > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect > (full, > > >> >quarter > > >> >> > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect on > > >> >seventh > > >> >> > house) ? > > >> >> > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are > > >exalted > > >> >and > > >> >> > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. of > > >Aries > > >> >> > sign) ? > > >> >> > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when duration > of > > >the > > >> >> > day is more in comparison to night…… > > >> >> > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful > and > > >hub > > >> >of > > >> >> > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha whereas > > >Venus > > >> >(a > > >> >> > small planet) has 20 years ? > > >> >> > Based on two triangles derived after working out the effect > of > > >> >> > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > >> >> > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various > constellations > > >> >between > > >> >> > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a > week > > >> >> > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > >> >> > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the > > >> >structure > > >> >> > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde > motion > > >of > > >> >> > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > >> >> > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu are > 180 > > >> >deg. > > >> >> > apart? > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > >> >> > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of eclipse ? > > >> >> > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final question > as > > >to > > >> >> > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one > gave > > >> >> > answers to these questions then he will realize that entire > > >> >> > astrological principles are totally based on wrong concept > of > > >> >> > Universe. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the then > > >> >> > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed by > > >sage > > >> >> > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is in > the > > >> >> > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also believed > in > > >all > > >> >> > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may read > any > > >old > > >> >> > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas Moon > is > > >> >beyond > > >> >> > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury and > > >Moon. > > >> >> > You may be surprised to know that all astrological > principles > > >are > > >> >> > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self studying > > >> >astrology > > >> >> > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude > correct > > >> >> > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same > > >combination is > > >> >> > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh > logically > > >and > > >> >> > systematically over this subject and I find that Primitive > > >concept > > >> >> > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling in > > >view > > >> >of > > >> >> > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive > > >concept > > >> >of > > >> >> > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > >> >> > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > > >> >astrology " Jyotish - > > >> >> > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book > > >contains > > >> >the > > >> >> > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles on > > >the > > >> >basis > > >> >> > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our > > >sages to > > >> >> > formulate these principles. This book was also published in > > >> >English > > >> >> > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). > The > > >> >book is > > >> >> > being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > >> >> > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > > >> >produktID=1759836 > > >> >> > > > >> >> > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp? AUB=sanat% > > >> >20kumar% > > >> >> > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > >> >> > > > >> >> > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > >> >> > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > >> >> > > > >> >> > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, > Neptune > > >nor > > >> >they > > >> >> > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to > > >presence > > >> >of > > >> >> > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed > the > > >> >concept > > >> >> > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was > > >> >mentioned in > > >> >> > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came > > >within 14 > > >> >> > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full Moon). > But > > >> >nobody > > >> >> > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar eclipse > > >when > > >> >Sun, > > >> >> > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree > > >respectively > > >> >on > > >> >> > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, Moon > > >and > > >> >Ketu > > >> >> > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on 03- > 03- > > >> >1988 ( > > >> >> > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar > > >eclipses > > >> >> > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was > more > > >then > > >> >> > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at > > >79.04 > > >> >deg. > > >> >> > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon were > at > > >> >76.49 > > >> >> > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu > was > > >15.14 > > >> >> > deg. away). > > >> >> > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you > will > > >also > > >> >> > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse > occurred > > >at > > >> >the > > >> >> > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though it > was > > >not > > >> >> > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the basis > of > > >> >myth). > > >> >> > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, > when > > >Moon > > >> >> > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be > there. > > >But > > >> >As > > >> >> > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11- > 1985 > > >> >and 3- > > >> >> > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were > full > > >> >solar > > >> >> > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 degree > > >> >> > respectively. You will agree that when there were full > solar > > >> >eclipses > > >> >> > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 and > 166 > > >> >degree > > >> >> > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may > > >possible. > > >> >> > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in > > >almanac. > > >> >Thus > > >> >> > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees > > >respectively. > > >> >All > > >> >> > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this > > >fundamental > > >> >> > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you > want > > >> >then I > > >> >> > can give many more examples and very simple method of > > >detecting > > >> >them. > > >> >> > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a > science > > >but > > >> >in > > >> >> > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of > astronomy + > > >> >> > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, > psychology > > >> >> > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive age) > > >> >played an > > >> >> > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due > to > > >> >immense > > >> >> > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive astrology > > >> >appears to > > >> >> > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will > also > > >> >agree > > >> >> > with the above observation after going through my original > > >> >> > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre- > decided > > >as > > >> >was > > >> >> > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we may > try > > >to > > >> >do > > >> >> > some thing, because every thing will take place according > to > > >pre- > > >> >> > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of > modifying > > >that > > >> >pre- > > >> >> > written destiny, because if we try to change only our fate, > > >even > > >> >then > > >> >> > all attached happening will automatically change creating a > > >> >cascading > > >> >> > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of > every > > >> >> > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or > say > > >pre- > > >> >> > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because when > > >every > > >> >Tom, > > >> >> > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, > good > > >> >deed > > >> >> > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under > > >change. > > >> >You > > >> >> > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > >> >> > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and > can > > >> >never > > >> >> > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart > cannot be > > >> >> > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction is > > >also > > >> >> > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > > >> >prewritten) > > >> >> > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. > because > > >in > > >> >> > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be > > >altered > > >> >but > > >> >> > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked prediction > > >can be > > >> >> > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed transit > of > > >> >> > planets? > > >> >> > > > >> >> > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest > > >assured > > >> >that > > >> >> > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. Only > > >> >astronomy > > >> >> > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were used > > >> >> > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it appears > > >> >correct. > > >> >> > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a > myth. > > >> >Still if > > >> >> > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact > The > > >James > > >> >> > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 > prize to > > >> >> > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e- mail > and > > >> >> > website is jref@ <jref%40randi.org> and > > >> >http://www.randi.orgBecause modern > > >> >> > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being > used > > >to > > >> >> > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested > > >business > > >> >> > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight > this > > >sort > > >> >of > > >> >> > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in this > > >regard > > >> >> > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > >> >> > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to > formulate > > >> >> > principles was neither logical nor based on correct > > >information of > > >> >> > Universe, solar system. > > >> >> > > > >> >> > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and > facts, > > >data > > >> >> > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to > join > > >> >hands > > >> >> > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). > > >> >> > Sanat Kumar Jain > > >> >> > Think differently, Think logically and Think scientifically > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> >--- > > >> > > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Resp Kaul ji, Namaskar, Thanks for your encouraging msg. on my reply to Mr. Ron. Let us see, what he and other members of the forum specially Sh. Razdan Ji, Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji want to say, who are silent since long. You may have observed that I am time and again reminding members of our forum to come forward for sharing their views, but unfortunately they like to live in tunnel of faith without any fresh air of logical approach. As I have already spent +35 years on astrology hence I want to share my views. I am open to all and ready to discuss any point to any length, to find some truth. Since last 5 years (after publication of my hindi book), I have discussed with many astrologers but none of them is able to answer basic and logical questions and privately admit that they also experienced many failures but due to business considerations and respect which they get from their clients, they are not willing to oppose astrology though they are convinced with the content my book that foundation is based on primitive knowledge. But what we can do except either to learn something from the interaction or inform about the hollow astrological principals. I find that you are member of many forums hence I will like to request you that if some astrologers are interested in interaction then please invite him in our forum for open and uncensored interaction on predictive astrology. I find that many forums are only busy in promoting their business and do not want any sincere analysis. Thanks Yours truly, Sanat PS : Now each and every astrological book, magazine and astrologers are explaining (or befooling) that Rahu and Ketu are intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though this was not the concept of our sages). Today on 1-8-8, there is total solar eclipse when Sun and Moon may be at +105 degree but Ketu is at 115 degree. Now everybody knows that at the time of total solar eclipse Moon is going to intersect the orbit of the Sun and during intersection Sun happens to be on the point of intersection hence we can see total solar eclipse. Now my question to the members of the forum is that what Ketu (which is intersection point of orbits) is doing at 115 degree, whereas it must be at 105 degree the location where Sun and Moon are transiting. Thus can't member realize that position of these shadow planets in the horoscopes is wrong. (other such examples are also given in my blog `Astrology a science or myth') Hope to have some answer for further discussion. Members may discuss personally to other astrologers or consult in other forums if they do not have any answer. sanat , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved wrote: > > Dear Jain Sahib, > Excellent analysis! > Congratulations for dissecting such a terse subject as " astrology " -- - > about which literally trillions of volumes have been written---in > such a simple yet pithy manner! > Regards, > AKK > , " sanat2221 " > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > > > Resp Ron, > > Thanks for your comments. > > At least thanks for admitting that Hindu (vedic) and western and KP > > systems are not working correctly. Hence you have left them and > > adopted a new Khullar system. > > > > Khullar system is a mixture of Hindu and KP system; whereas KP > system > > is a mixture of Hindu and Western system. So indirectly Khullar > > system has adopted a way of old wine in new bottle. I have also > tried > > to fuse these both systems in many ways and result of fusion may be > > seen in `Eskain horoscope' in file section. But again like head and > > tail of a coin, some prediction may right randomly but same > > combination is not working in another horoscope. It will take some > > more time to you to realize that this system is also not working. > > Because basic building block of this system too, like all others, > is > > based on sign, sign lord, cusp (which is a reverse copy of > > Vinshottary dasha " ), friendship, exalted etc. Until unless these > > building blocks of predictive astrology may have some scientific or > > logical theory behind them till then how you can say that some > thing > > can be predicted. Because only that event can be predicted which is > > predestined and take your time to realize / think that even if a > > single event of future of any one life is fixed then whole sequence > > of event of the life may automatically be fixed. This in turn may > fix > > the sequence of event of other life. Thus whole set up will be > fixed. > > Then where is the use of knowing the future or where is the scope > of > > amending any unpleasant event. > > > > You have mentioned an event of > > >>>>>>> one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw that > > she > > was likely to die the following day even though she had no known > > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long > > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared > > fine, but the following day she died as indicated.<<<<<<<<<<. In > this > > connection I will like to say that every predictive system either > it > > may be astrology or KP system, Western system, Magi system, Lal > > kitab, numerology, Terro card, palmistry, Nadi shastra, face > > reading, signature reading, Vaastu, and so on have so many stories > to > > tell but none of them is correct and all of them are > psychologically > > correct or randomly correct. Thus there is no logic in believing > any > > random forecast to amend our plan, decision in any respect. etc. If > > above story of death of mother is right in your opinion then the > > combination in horoscope by which death may be known would have > been > > published in scientific journal and Khullar himself would have been > > appointed as chief boss of all Insurance companies to see as to > > whether life insurance of a person may be done or not. Thus you can > > see that only a single forecast based on combination of planets may > > lead to flow of money then what would happen if a system (khullar) > > would have been correct in many respect ie. It may tell about job, > > promotion, illness, health and so on. You may please intimate the > > planetary cuspal combination of the horoscope by which death was > > decoded for the benefit of the members of the forum, who may take > > benefit of such a combination and get insured. Do not take it > > otherwise, I am seriously requesting you and if you don't have that > > combination then you may intimate some other combination, or you > may > > check yourself the viability of the system and get rid off. > > > > Our basic question is still pending that so long any one is not > able > > to know that how basic building block of predictive astrology (sign > > lord etc. ) were formulated and whether procedure adopted has some > > scientific or logical approach till then we all are bound to fall > in > > one or another trap. I am saying so that I find (not to say after > how > > much labour) that all predictive principles were formulated on > > primitive myth, knowledge, tradition etc. and thus these principles > > have no logical or scientific support in view of modern knowledge. > If > > Hindu (so called vedic) astrology would have been correct then > what > > was the need to modify it as western and in turn as KP system and > in > > turn as Khullar system and what was the need to create so many > other > > systems like palmistry etc. It is not for improving an existing > > system, otherwise all previous systems would have been buried and > > some new correct system would have been survived and in turn every > > one would have been realized as to how our ole astrologer were > wrong. > > But you can see that every system is going on, because every system > > has some business and followers. But you are right that after > > realizing some mistake you have jumped to some new system and it is > > correct way of analyzing a system, because you may not be a > > practitioner astrologer. Otherwise you may have stick to any one > > system and anyhow support that system like many astrologers. > > > > Thus you were initially right when you think : > > >>>>>>> Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful > about > > the > > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system. > > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions, > > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully > > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any > > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct > > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led > > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting > > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the > > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me > > eager see why they were successful.<<<< > > and now no need to go for blind chart, you may check and announce > > when Osama will die or likewise some other definite prediction > about > > any one in the world and continue to serve many Govt. > > > > Hope to receive some tested principles of khullar for definite > > prediction, which may not have some psychological mixture for the > > larger benefit of the members. > > > > Thanks, > > > > Yours truly, > > Sanat > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rongaunt@ au " > > <rongaunt@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Hi Sanat, > > > > > > I respond to the extracted part of your message where you say: > > > > > > 'So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must > > > find out the procedure as to how all basic principles were > > > formulated and is their any scientific logic (in view of modern > > > knowledge) or not.' > > > > > > Now this is a most scientific approach you have taken!! You have > > > obviously already taken the stance that Mr Khullar's work is > > > bogus or you would not say 'falling into another trap by > > > Khullar'. > > > > > > I have serious doubts that you have studied his work at all, > > > never mind being intimately aquatinted with it. So your > > > unfounded prejudice for a scientific observer is obvious for all > > > to see, and is clearly hypocritical if you have not studied the > > > subject. I think most would agree your approach here at least is > > > MOST UNSCIENTIFIC. > > > > > > For your information the Khullar system is by far the most > > > scientific of all astrology I have come across. Mr Khullar > > > examined in detail both Western and Hindu astrology. He took > > > much from the traditions of the Hindus, and from Nadi astrology. > > > He went right to the source of their ideas and worked out > > > exactly why they were quoting certain important slokas. He > > > then incorporated these ideas into a major advancement on the KP > > > system using cuspal interlinks. > > > > > > I personally gave up believing authors have all (or even) some of > > > the answers all of the time, so I thoroughly check everything > > > stated. If I find a system not working as stated even once I > > > start having reservations. When I see it doesn't work quite a > > > few times I discard it. I have not been able to do this with > > > the Khullar system because it does work. > > > > > > Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful about the > > > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system. > > > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions, > > > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully > > > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any > > > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct > > > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led > > > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting > > > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the > > > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me > > > eager see why they were successful. > > > > > > I think any experienced astrologer would agree that even if you > > > ask a number of astrologers - all following the same system - > > > to assess or predict for an event they will invariably all come > > > up with a different answer. > > > > > > This does not happen in KCIL because all charts are rectified by > > > strict criteria, and invariably all students come up with the > > > same rectified chart. They all assess the event to get the > > > same answer because the cuspal interlinks are specific to the > > > chart and the rules are clearly laid down. This is extremely > > > scientific astrology. > > > > > > Apart from success in Blind Charts there has been extremely good > > > predictions ie births to the day and a narrow time frame. Also > > > one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw that she > > > was likely to die the following day even though she had no known > > > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long > > > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared > > > fine, but the following day she died as indicated. How many > > > astrologers using other systems would be sufficiently confident > > > to do this? > > > > > > We have seen other things which validate the system, such as > > > Mr Khullar declaring that a certain person could not have been > > > born in a certain part of city because the events of the life and > > > family connections did not line up in regard to the relevant > > > house cusps. He then stated where the person was likely to have > > > been born. Checking with the native the position chosen was > > > almost spot on. There are many other reasons that indicate > > > that the system does work. > > > > > > So Sanat, first study this system in detail then pronounce on > > > it, that is the truly scientific way. Your opinion may then > > > carry some weight but until then it is difficult for anyone to > > > take your opinions (at least on this matter) seriously. > > > > > > > > > Ron Gaunt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:13:14 -0000, you wrote: > > > > > > >Dear Ron, > > > >Welcome in the forum for your first msg. > > > >You have good knowledge of astrology, still you are not > convinced > > > >with any system and advocating an another Khullar system. I am > > > >reproducing your stand > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>Again most do not realise that it is possible to see > > anything > > > >and everything you want to see after the event with ANY and > EVERY > > > >system, due to the enormous number of permutations. > > > >I think I have looked at just about every astrological system > and > > > >method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, and > > others > > > >do not give consistently good results. <<<<<<<<<<< > > > > > > > >against you. Because it makes no difference as to whether we are > > > >linking any past event with some principles or we are linking > > future > > > >prediction with our psychology. If I will say your next month is > > not > > > >good and you have faith on predictive astrology, then every > > > >psychological odd in next month will be linked with this > > prediction > > > >and in sub-conscious mind you may bent upon to think that > > astrology > > > >is correct. So it has no relevancy at all. > > > > > > > >We in India are being befooled and cheated by astrologers since > > 2000 > > > >years without knowing that sign was devised by Greeks and > adopted > > by > > > >us without any religious support. Because mass population always > > > >remains uneducated and educated lot are being lured by crowd of > > heads > > > >on shoulders (without knowing that their heads are empty in this > > > >respect) who follows some traditions. Cunning or ignorant > > astrologers > > > >after reading some latest books on astrology, full with praise > of > > > >sages and latest data of solar system thinks (and propagate) > that > > our > > > >sages were well known with modern data. Thus they are able to > > befool > > > >ignorant public in the name of Ved, Sage, Myth and so on with > the > > > >help of Media and publicity. > > > > > > > >Bare fact is this that our sages were very logical and open to > all > > > >sort of logical knowledge (which can not be questioned). They > were > > > >very clear when they appreciate the knowledge of Greeks because > > they > > > >were of the opinion " tamso ma jyotirgamay " means we must go > ahead > > > >towards knowledge from ignorance. For the purpose of knowledge > > they > > > >were following " Vasudevam kutumbkam " means whole world is a > > family. > > > >Thus they adopted sign system and other knowledge from Greeks > and > > > >mixed it with our constellational system and religious concept > of > > > >formation of universe. Thus our sages formulated basic > principles > > > >like sign lord, aspect, friendship, exalted, dasha and so on > > (refer > > > >my book in Hindi or in English for detailed procedure etc.), by > > which > > > >they were able to forecast some thing which happens to be true > > > >(psychologically, and this phenomena was not known till 18th > > > >century). Thus Greeks then Romans adopted these principles and > > > >subsequently slightly modified (aspect) as Western system, > whereas > > > >sign lord etc are same. As we Indians are not aware that concept > > of > > > >sign belongs to Greek / Babylonia likewise Western countries are > > not > > > >aware that sign lord etc. principles were formulated by our > sages > > on > > > >the basis of religious myth that Earth is stationary, Sun is > > nearer > > > >then Moon, all constellation are just above Moon and so on. In > > this > > > >way where we Indians are being befooled in the name of Ved, > sages; > > > >likewise western countries were being befooled that predictive > > > >principals were formulated by Ptolemy and now everyone is after > > > >socalled " Vedic astrology " without knowing that there is no > > > >predictive astrology in Ved. Thus predictive astrology is merely > a > > > >psychological game like magic. We must enjoy this game but must > > not > > > >be lured like a fool who may be lured by creation of currency > > notes > > > >from a box by a magician and left his job in the hope to create > > note > > > >from that box. > > > > > > > >So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must > find > > > >out the procedure as to how all basic principles were formulated > > and > > > >is their any scientific logic (in view of modern knowledge) or > > not. > > > > > > > >Some points were discussed in brief (refer SOA_______ files in > > file > > > >section) because followers of astrology, could not stand after > > > >raising very simple arguments and further discussion could not > be > > > >done. I hope that after +35 years of experience you may like to > > > >discuss on any point. > > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > >Yours truly, > > > >Sanat > > > > > > > >PS: Sh. Razdan Ji, Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji may > please > > > >come forward with reply on my comments. Silence is not a > solution. > > > >Silently reading is also not a solution. When we are in a forum > > then > > > >either we must educate other members or may improve our > knowledge. > > > >Remaining " as it is " is not a good sign. For improvement we must > > have > > > >inquisitive mind. I am ready to learn from expert astrologers > but > > not > > > >as blind supporter. If Astrology is science then it must cross > all > > > >questions and must have logical answers to all sort of doubt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rongaunt@ au " > > > ><rongaunt@> wrote: > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Friends, > > > >> > > > >> I am new to the forum, but have a fair knowledge of astrology > as > > > >> it has been my hobby for over 35 years. I am all for > > > >> questioning the validity of the subject, as I suspect that many > > > >> many astrologers, are very gullible because they have not > > > >> studied deeply enough to realise that the permutations in > > > >> astrology run into the millions. Again most do not realise > that > > > >> it is possible to see anything and everything you want to see > > > >> after the event with ANY and EVERY system, due to the enormous > > > >> number of permutations. And f course, very few if any, go on > to > > > >> achieve good predictions. > > > >> > > > >> I think I have looked at just about every astrological system > and > > > >> method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, and > > > >> others do not give consistently good results. It has been my > aim > > > >> to find one that does work, and to this end I started possibly > > > >> the first of the regulat Blind Charts tests on the Web many > years > > > >> ago. I hoped to find a system that really did work. It is > > > >> only in the last year or so that I have found such a system, > > > >> which drew my attention because the students of a particular > > > >> astrological institution kept getting correct results in our > > > >> Blind Chart tests. The system is the Khullar method of > Cuspal > > > >> Interlinks. > > > >> > > > >> Anyhow my intention in writing this mail was to point out that > it > > > >> is not very practical to furnish personal data and then predict > > > >> from it, because the waiting time for the prediction means > > > >> everyone will lose interest long before the event does or does > > > >> not happen. It would be much better to get members to furnish > > > >> data, to include some events and family birthdates in order to > be > > > >> able to rectify the chart, and give say four options which > > > >> participants will check to find out which of these options > > > >> happened on a given date. This is real life astrology and is > > > >> almost as good as future prediction, because you use exactly > the > > > >> same methods on an unknown event. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Ron Gaunt > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:44:09 -0000, you wrote: > > > >> > > > >> >Shri Jagannathan Kapisthalamji, > > > >> >Namaskar! > > > >> ><If you can furnish your date of birth,place and time of > birth > > let > > > >us > > > >> >try some astrological predictions and see whether they work.?> > > > >> > > > > >> >My late maternal grandfather used to make predictions from > > > >horoscopes > > > >> >prepared from Grahalaghava panchangas, which were anything > but > > > >> >correct, and that was admitted by the Panchanga makers > > > >themselves! > > > >> >Quite often his predictions proved correct! > > > >> > > > > >> >Does that prove that any predictive gimmicks are either > > scientific > > > >or > > > >> >Vedic? No. That cannot be so, since Grahalaghava was/is > > neither a > > > >> >Vedic work nor a scientific one! > > > >> > > > > >> >Thus even if some astrologers are able to make some correct > > > >> >predictions about some one sometimes, that never means/proves > > that > > > >> >those predictions were either on a scientific basis or as per > > the > > > >> >Vedic lore! All that proves is that sometimes some guess > works > > do > > > >> >prove correct and that is why more often than not, correct > > > >preictions > > > >> >are made only from incorrect data, whether birth particulars > or > > > >> >astronomical data, since Lahiri Ayanamsha in itself is the > most > > > >> >monstrous ayanamsha that could ever have been invented by any > > > >> >charlatan!! And it is on the basis of only that ayanamsha > that > > > >ninety- > > > >> >nine per cent predictions are made these days! > > > >> >With regards, > > > >> >A K Kaul > > > >> > > > > >> > , " Jagannathan > > > >Kapisthalam " > > > >> ><jagannathankr@> wrote: > > > >> >> > > > >> >> Dear Sir, > > > >> >> Your article is quite interesting.If you can furnish your > > date of > > > >> >> birth,place and time of birth let us try some astrological > > > >> >predictions and > > > >> >> see whether they work.?This is only out of academic > interest. > > > >> >> Regards, > > > >> >> jagannathan. > > > >> >> > > > >> >> On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Resp. members, > > > >> >> > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of > > discussion > > > >on > > > >> >> > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am > enclosing > > my > > > >old > > > >> >> > blog placed in the file section so that members may read > it > > and > > > >> >> > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not > > reacting > > > >> >with a > > > >> >> > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though > they > > are > > > >> >> > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can > > interact > > > >on > > > >> >my > > > >> >> > email sanatkumar_jain@ <sanatkumar_jain% 40rediffmail.com> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > So far members have observed that supporters of astrology > > are > > > >> >either > > > >> >> > interested in by passing the main point or they have only > > > >faith on > > > >> >> > astrology without any scientific or logical support to > any > > > >> >concept. > > > >> >> > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others > to > > > >follow > > > >> >the > > > >> >> > path of ignorance. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am > always > > > >> >interested > > > >> >> > in looking deep. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Thanks > > > >> >> > Sanat > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > > >> >> > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to > > some > > > >> >> > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not > > studied > > > >in > > > >> >depth > > > >> >> > but you only have faith, because you have been informed > > like > > > >> >this. So > > > >> >> > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as > to > > > >> >whether > > > >> >> > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of > > science > > > >due > > > >> >to > > > >> >> > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the > sentiments > > of > > > >> >> > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I > only > > > >want to > > > >> >> > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let > > us > > > >> >examine > > > >> >> > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because > > you > > > >have > > > >> >> > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are > > > >standing > > > >> >in > > > >> >> > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has > > been > > > >> >> > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology > > is a > > > >> >> > science without knowing the story of other side. I can > > > >understand > > > >> >the > > > >> >> > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business > > but > > > >if > > > >> >you > > > >> >> > are a client then you must have right to know the truth > or > > > >call an > > > >> >> > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in > > early > > > >> >> > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being > > has > > > >> >> > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. > This > > > >> >religious > > > >> >> > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet > > (Sun, > > > >> >Moon, > > > >> >> > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days > > only > > > >> >sages > > > >> >> > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus > > after > > > >> >> > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill > > to > > > >> >predict > > > >> >> > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so- > called > > > >> >grabbing > > > >> >> > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and > Ketu. > > > >> >> > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and > its > > > >> >> > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer > > > >donations > > > >> >etc. > > > >> >> > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, > which > > is > > > >> >still > > > >> >> > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate > of > > > >> >everybody > > > >> >> > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this > > > >situation, > > > >> >it > > > >> >> > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict > the > > > >fate > > > >> >of > > > >> >> > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict > > the > > > >> >fate of > > > >> >> > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate > > various > > > >> >> > astrological principles on the basis of the then > knowledge > > of > > > >> >sages > > > >> >> > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. > These > > > >> >principles > > > >> >> > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > > > >> >percolated > > > >> >> > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier > to > > > >learn > > > >> >> > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these > > principles > > > >were > > > >> >> > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as > > Western > > > >> >system. > > > >> >> > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One > > group > > > >> >> > belongs to astrologers who always try to support > astrology > > due > > > >to > > > >> >> > their business considerations (these astrologers always > try > > to > > > >fit > > > >> >> > past event very precisely within some astrological > > principle > > > >> >within a > > > >> >> > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and > > faith > > > >etc., > > > >> >> > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > > > >> >astrological > > > >> >> > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too > > diabolical > > > >> >> > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in > > fluke) > > > >may > > > >> >come > > > >> >> > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and > > start > > > >self > > > >> >> > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle > on > > > >other > > > >> >> > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only > > > >mislead, > > > >> >> > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You > can > > > >find > > > >> >that > > > >> >> > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other > group > > (say > > > >> >> > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against > > > >astrology. > > > >> >But > > > >> >> > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what > was > > the > > > >> >level > > > >> >> > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed > > > >> >> > astrological principles in primitive age and what > procedure > > was > > > >> >> > adopted to formulate various principles relating to > > Lordship, > > > >> >> > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, > Vinshottary > > > >> >> > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles > then > > > >> >following > > > >> >> > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in > > > >> >subpara). > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among > > seven > > > >> >> > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the > > > >stationary > > > >> >> > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is > enmity > > and > > > >> >> > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are > > enemy > > > >of > > > >> >each > > > >> >> > other) ? > > > >> >> > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and > > demons > > > >over > > > >> >> > nector after sea-churning……….. > > > >> >> > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect > > (full, > > > >> >quarter > > > >> >> > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect > on > > > >> >seventh > > > >> >> > house) ? > > > >> >> > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are > > > >exalted > > > >> >and > > > >> >> > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. > of > > > >Aries > > > >> >> > sign) ? > > > >> >> > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when > duration > > of > > > >the > > > >> >> > day is more in comparison to night…… > > > >> >> > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful > > and > > > >hub > > > >> >of > > > >> >> > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha > whereas > > > >Venus > > > >> >(a > > > >> >> > small planet) has 20 years ? > > > >> >> > Based on two triangles derived after working out the > effect > > of > > > >> >> > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > > >> >> > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various > > constellations > > > >> >between > > > >> >> > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a > > week > > > >> >> > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > > >> >> > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the > > > >> >structure > > > >> >> > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde > > motion > > > >of > > > >> >> > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > > >> >> > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu > are > > 180 > > > >> >deg. > > > >> >> > apart? > > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > > >> >> > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of > eclipse ? > > > >> >> > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month………. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final > question > > as > > > >to > > > >> >> > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one > > gave > > > >> >> > answers to these questions then he will realize that > entire > > > >> >> > astrological principles are totally based on wrong > concept > > of > > > >> >> > Universe. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the > then > > > >> >> > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed > by > > > >sage > > > >> >> > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is > in > > the > > > >> >> > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also > believed > > in > > > >all > > > >> >> > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may > read > > any > > > >old > > > >> >> > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas > Moon > > is > > > >> >beyond > > > >> >> > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury > and > > > >Moon. > > > >> >> > You may be surprised to know that all astrological > > principles > > > >are > > > >> >> > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self > studying > > > >> >astrology > > > >> >> > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude > > correct > > > >> >> > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same > > > >combination is > > > >> >> > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh > > logically > > > >and > > > >> >> > systematically over this subject and I find that > Primitive > > > >concept > > > >> >> > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling > in > > > >view > > > >> >of > > > >> >> > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive > > > >concept > > > >> >of > > > >> >> > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > > >> >> > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > > > >> >astrology " Jyotish - > > > >> >> > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book > > > >contains > > > >> >the > > > >> >> > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles > on > > > >the > > > >> >basis > > > >> >> > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our > > > >sages to > > > >> >> > formulate these principles. This book was also published > in > > > >> >English > > > >> >> > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). > > The > > > >> >book is > > > >> >> > being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > > >> >> > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > > > >> >produktID=1759836 > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp? > AUB=sanat% > > > >> >20kumar% > > > >> >> > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > > >> >> > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, > > Neptune > > > >nor > > > >> >they > > > >> >> > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to > > > >presence > > > >> >of > > > >> >> > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed > > the > > > >> >concept > > > >> >> > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was > > > >> >mentioned in > > > >> >> > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came > > > >within 14 > > > >> >> > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full > Moon). > > But > > > >> >nobody > > > >> >> > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar > eclipse > > > >when > > > >> >Sun, > > > >> >> > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree > > > >respectively > > > >> >on > > > >> >> > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, > Moon > > > >and > > > >> >Ketu > > > >> >> > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on > 03- > > 03- > > > >> >1988 ( > > > >> >> > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar > > > >eclipses > > > >> >> > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was > > more > > > >then > > > >> >> > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at > > > >79.04 > > > >> >deg. > > > >> >> > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon > were > > at > > > >> >76.49 > > > >> >> > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu > > was > > > >15.14 > > > >> >> > deg. away). > > > >> >> > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you > > will > > > >also > > > >> >> > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse > > occurred > > > >at > > > >> >the > > > >> >> > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though > it > > was > > > >not > > > >> >> > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the > basis > > of > > > >> >myth). > > > >> >> > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, > > when > > > >Moon > > > >> >> > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be > > there. > > > >But > > > >> >As > > > >> >> > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12- 11- > > 1985 > > > >> >and 3- > > > >> >> > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were > > full > > > >> >solar > > > >> >> > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 > degree > > > >> >> > respectively. You will agree that when there were full > > solar > > > >> >eclipses > > > >> >> > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 > and > > 166 > > > >> >degree > > > >> >> > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may > > > >possible. > > > >> >> > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in > > > >almanac. > > > >> >Thus > > > >> >> > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees > > > >respectively. > > > >> >All > > > >> >> > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this > > > >fundamental > > > >> >> > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you > > want > > > >> >then I > > > >> >> > can give many more examples and very simple method of > > > >detecting > > > >> >them. > > > >> >> > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a > > science > > > >but > > > >> >in > > > >> >> > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of > > astronomy + > > > >> >> > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, > > psychology > > > >> >> > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive > age) > > > >> >played an > > > >> >> > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due > > to > > > >> >immense > > > >> >> > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive > astrology > > > >> >appears to > > > >> >> > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will > > also > > > >> >agree > > > >> >> > with the above observation after going through my original > > > >> >> > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre- > > decided > > > >as > > > >> >was > > > >> >> > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we > may > > try > > > >to > > > >> >do > > > >> >> > some thing, because every thing will take place according > > to > > > >pre- > > > >> >> > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of > > modifying > > > >that > > > >> >pre- > > > >> >> > written destiny, because if we try to change only our > fate, > > > >even > > > >> >then > > > >> >> > all attached happening will automatically change creating > a > > > >> >cascading > > > >> >> > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of > > every > > > >> >> > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or > > say > > > >pre- > > > >> >> > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because > when > > > >every > > > >> >Tom, > > > >> >> > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, > > good > > > >> >deed > > > >> >> > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under > > > >change. > > > >> >You > > > >> >> > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical > > > >> >> > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and > > can > > > >> >never > > > >> >> > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart > > cannot be > > > >> >> > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction > is > > > >also > > > >> >> > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > > > >> >prewritten) > > > >> >> > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. > > because > > > >in > > > >> >> > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be > > > >altered > > > >> >but > > > >> >> > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked > prediction > > > >can be > > > >> >> > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed > transit > > of > > > >> >> > planets? > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest > > > >assured > > > >> >that > > > >> >> > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. > Only > > > >> >astronomy > > > >> >> > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were > used > > > >> >> > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it > appears > > > >> >correct. > > > >> >> > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a > > myth. > > > >> >Still if > > > >> >> > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact > > The > > > >James > > > >> >> > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 > > prize to > > > >> >> > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e- > mail > > and > > > >> >> > website is jref@ <jref%40randi.org> and > > > >> >http://www.randi.orgBecause modern > > > >> >> > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being > > used > > > >to > > > >> >> > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested > > > >business > > > >> >> > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight > > this > > > >sort > > > >> >of > > > >> >> > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in > this > > > >regard > > > >> >> > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology > > > >> >> > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to > > formulate > > > >> >> > principles was neither logical nor based on correct > > > >information of > > > >> >> > Universe, solar system. > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and > > facts, > > > >data > > > >> >> > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to > > join > > > >> >hands > > > >> >> > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). > > > >> >> > Sanat Kumar Jain > > > >> >> > Think differently, Think logically and Think > scientifically > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> >--- > > > >> > > > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2008 Report Share Posted August 2, 2008 Dear Sanatji Exactly the same doubt flashed in my mind.How come the node is away by 5 deg and the maximum of eclipse is occurring. It had the same veriation thro out the tenure of eclipse. How is it ? Certainly this is a point of discussion. Kindly throw some light on it. Regards tkp ghopal On 8/1/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain wrote: Resp Kaul ji,Namaskar,Thanks for your encouraging msg. on my reply to Mr. Ron. Let us see, what he and other members of the forum specially Sh. Razdan Ji, Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji want to say, who are silent since long.You may have observed that I am time and again reminding members of our forum to come forward for sharing their views, but unfortunately they like to live in tunnel of faith without any fresh air of logical approach. As I have already spent +35 years on astrology hence I want to share my views. I am open to all and ready to discuss any point to any length, to find some truth. Since last 5 years (after publication of my hindi book), I have discussed with many astrologers but none of them is able to answer basic and logical questions and privately admit that they also experienced many failures but due to business considerations and respect which they get from their clients, they are not willing to oppose astrology though they are convinced with the content my book that foundation is based on primitive knowledge. But what we can do except either to learn something from the interaction or inform about the hollow astrological principals. I find that you are member of many forums hence I will like to request you that if some astrologers are interested in interaction then please invite him in our forum for open and uncensored interaction on predictive astrology. I find that many forums are only busy in promoting their business and do not want any sincere analysis.Thanks Yours truly,SanatPS : Now each and every astrological book, magazine and astrologers are explaining (or befooling) that Rahu and Ketu are intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though this was not the concept of our sages). Today on 1-8-8, there is total solar eclipse when Sun and Moon may be at +105 degree but Ketu is at 115 degree. Now everybody knows that at the time of total solar eclipse Moon is going to intersect the orbit of the Sun and during intersection Sun happens to be on the point of intersection hence we can see total solar eclipse. Now my question to the members of the forum is that what Ketu (which is intersection point of orbits) is doing at 115 degree, whereas it must be at 105 degree the location where Sun and Moon are transiting. Thus can't member realize that position of these shadow planets in the horoscopes is wrong. (other such examples are also given in my blog `Astrology a science or myth') Hope to have some answer for further discussion. Members may discuss personally to other astrologers or consult in other forums if they do not have any answer.sanat , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved wrote:>> Dear Jain Sahib,> Excellent analysis!> Congratulations for dissecting such a terse subject as " astrology " -- -> about which literally trillions of volumes have been written---in > such a simple yet pithy manner!> Regards,> AKK> , " sanat2221 " > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote:> >> > > > Resp Ron,> > Thanks for your comments.> > At least thanks for admitting that Hindu (vedic) and western and KP > > systems are not working correctly. Hence you have left them and > > adopted a new Khullar system.> > > > Khullar system is a mixture of Hindu and KP system; whereas KP > system > > is a mixture of Hindu and Western system. So indirectly Khullar > > system has adopted a way of old wine in new bottle. I have also > tried > > to fuse these both systems in many ways and result of fusion may be > > seen in `Eskain horoscope' in file section. But again like head and > > tail of a coin, some prediction may right randomly but same > > combination is not working in another horoscope. It will take some > > more time to you to realize that this system is also not working. > > Because basic building block of this system too, like all others, > is > > based on sign, sign lord, cusp (which is a reverse copy of > > Vinshottary dasha " ), friendship, exalted etc. Until unless these > > building blocks of predictive astrology may have some scientific or > > logical theory behind them till then how you can say that some > thing > > can be predicted. Because only that event can be predicted which is > > predestined and take your time to realize / think that even if a > > single event of future of any one life is fixed then whole sequence > > of event of the life may automatically be fixed. This in turn may > fix > > the sequence of event of other life. Thus whole set up will be > fixed. > > Then where is the use of knowing the future or where is the scope > of > > amending any unpleasant event. > > > > You have mentioned an event of > > >>>>>>> one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw that > > she> > was likely to die the following day even though she had no known > > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long> > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared> > fine, but the following day she died as indicated.<<<<<<<<<<. In > this > > connection I will like to say that every predictive system either > it > > may be astrology or KP system, Western system, Magi system, Lal > > kitab, numerology, Terro card, palmistry, Nadi shastra, face > > reading, signature reading, Vaastu, and so on have so many stories > to > > tell but none of them is correct and all of them are > psychologically > > correct or randomly correct. Thus there is no logic in believing > any > > random forecast to amend our plan, decision in any respect. etc. If > > above story of death of mother is right in your opinion then the > > combination in horoscope by which death may be known would have > been > > published in scientific journal and Khullar himself would have been > > appointed as chief boss of all Insurance companies to see as to > > whether life insurance of a person may be done or not. Thus you can > > see that only a single forecast based on combination of planets may > > lead to flow of money then what would happen if a system (khullar) > > would have been correct in many respect ie. It may tell about job, > > promotion, illness, health and so on. You may please intimate the > > planetary cuspal combination of the horoscope by which death was > > decoded for the benefit of the members of the forum, who may take > > benefit of such a combination and get insured. Do not take it > > otherwise, I am seriously requesting you and if you don't have that > > combination then you may intimate some other combination, or you > may > > check yourself the viability of the system and get rid off.> > > > Our basic question is still pending that so long any one is not > able > > to know that how basic building block of predictive astrology (sign > > lord etc. ) were formulated and whether procedure adopted has some > > scientific or logical approach till then we all are bound to fall > in > > one or another trap. I am saying so that I find (not to say after > how > > much labour) that all predictive principles were formulated on > > primitive myth, knowledge, tradition etc. and thus these principles > > have no logical or scientific support in view of modern knowledge. > If > > Hindu (so called vedic) astrology would have been correct then > what > > was the need to modify it as western and in turn as KP system and > in > > turn as Khullar system and what was the need to create so many > other > > systems like palmistry etc. It is not for improving an existing > > system, otherwise all previous systems would have been buried and > > some new correct system would have been survived and in turn every > > one would have been realized as to how our ole astrologer were > wrong. > > But you can see that every system is going on, because every system > > has some business and followers. But you are right that after > > realizing some mistake you have jumped to some new system and it is > > correct way of analyzing a system, because you may not be a > > practitioner astrologer. Otherwise you may have stick to any one > > system and anyhow support that system like many astrologers.> > > > Thus you were initially right when you think :> > >>>>>>> Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful > about > > the> > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system.> > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions,> > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully > > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any> > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct> > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led > > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting> > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the> > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me > > eager see why they were successful.<<< > and now no need to go for blind chart, you may check and announce > > when Osama will die or likewise some other definite prediction > about > > any one in the world and continue to serve many Govt.> > > > Hope to receive some tested principles of khullar for definite > > prediction, which may not have some psychological mixture for the > > larger benefit of the members.> > > > Thanks,> > > > Yours truly,> > Sanat> > > > > > > > > > > > , " rongaunt@ au " > > <rongaunt@> wrote:> > >> > > > > > Hi Sanat,> > > > > > I respond to the extracted part of your message where you say:> > > > > > 'So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must> > > find out the procedure as to how all basic principles were> > > formulated and is their any scientific logic (in view of modern > > > knowledge) or not.'> > > > > > Now this is a most scientific approach you have taken!! You have> > > obviously already taken the stance that Mr Khullar's work is > > > bogus or you would not say 'falling into another trap by> > > Khullar'. > > > > > > I have serious doubts that you have studied his work at all,> > > never mind being intimately aquatinted with it. So your > > > unfounded prejudice for a scientific observer is obvious for all> > > to see, and is clearly hypocritical if you have not studied the> > > subject. I think most would agree your approach here at least is> > > MOST UNSCIENTIFIC.> > > > > > For your information the Khullar system is by far the most> > > scientific of all astrology I have come across. Mr Khullar> > > examined in detail both Western and Hindu astrology. He took > > > much from the traditions of the Hindus, and from Nadi astrology.> > > He went right to the source of their ideas and worked out> > > exactly why they were quoting certain important slokas. He > > > then incorporated these ideas into a major advancement on the KP> > > system using cuspal interlinks.> > > > > > I personally gave up believing authors have all (or even) some of> > > the answers all of the time, so I thoroughly check everything> > > stated. If I find a system not working as stated even once I> > > start having reservations. When I see it doesn't work quite a > > > few times I discard it. I have not been able to do this with> > > the Khullar system because it does work.> > > > > > Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful about the > > > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system.> > > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions,> > > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully > > > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any> > > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct> > > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led > > > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting> > > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the> > > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me > > > eager see why they were successful.> > > > > > I think any experienced astrologer would agree that even if you> > > ask a number of astrologers - all following the same system - > > > to assess or predict for an event they will invariably all come> > > up with a different answer. > > > > > > This does not happen in KCIL because all charts are rectified by > > > strict criteria, and invariably all students come up with the> > > same rectified chart. They all assess the event to get the> > > same answer because the cuspal interlinks are specific to the > > > chart and the rules are clearly laid down. This is extremely> > > scientific astrology.> > > > > > Apart from success in Blind Charts there has been extremely good > > > predictions ie births to the day and a narrow time frame. Also> > > one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw that she> > > was likely to die the following day even though she had no known > > > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long> > > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared> > > fine, but the following day she died as indicated. How many > > > astrologers using other systems would be sufficiently confident> > > to do this?> > > > > > We have seen other things which validate the system, such as > > > Mr Khullar declaring that a certain person could not have been > > > born in a certain part of city because the events of the life and> > > family connections did not line up in regard to the relevant> > > house cusps. He then stated where the person was likely to have> > > been born. Checking with the native the position chosen was> > > almost spot on. There are many other reasons that indicate> > > that the system does work.> > > > > > So Sanat, first study this system in detail then pronounce on> > > it, that is the truly scientific way. Your opinion may then> > > carry some weight but until then it is difficult for anyone to > > > take your opinions (at least on this matter) seriously.> > > > > > > > > Ron Gaunt> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:13:14 -0000, you wrote: > > > > > > >Dear Ron,> > > >Welcome in the forum for your first msg.> > > >You have good knowledge of astrology, still you are not > convinced > > > >with any system and advocating an another Khullar system. I am > > > >reproducing your stand > > > >> > > >>>>>>>>Again most do not realise that it is possible to see > > anything > > > >and everything you want to see after the event with ANY and > EVERY > > > >system, due to the enormous number of permutations.> > > >I think I have looked at just about every astrological system > and > > > >method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, and > > others > > > >do not give consistently good results. <<<<<<<<<<<> > > >> > > >against you. Because it makes no difference as to whether we are > > > >linking any past event with some principles or we are linking > > future > > > >prediction with our psychology. If I will say your next month is > > not > > > >good and you have faith on predictive astrology, then every > > > >psychological odd in next month will be linked with this > > prediction > > > >and in sub-conscious mind you may bent upon to think that > > astrology > > > >is correct. So it has no relevancy at all.> > > >> > > >We in India are being befooled and cheated by astrologers since > > 2000 > > > >years without knowing that sign was devised by Greeks and > adopted > > by > > > >us without any religious support. Because mass population always > > > >remains uneducated and educated lot are being lured by crowd of > > heads > > > >on shoulders (without knowing that their heads are empty in this > > > >respect) who follows some traditions. Cunning or ignorant > > astrologers > > > >after reading some latest books on astrology, full with praise > of > > > >sages and latest data of solar system thinks (and propagate) > that > > our > > > >sages were well known with modern data. Thus they are able to > > befool > > > >ignorant public in the name of Ved, Sage, Myth and so on with > the > > > >help of Media and publicity.> > > >> > > >Bare fact is this that our sages were very logical and open to > all > > > >sort of logical knowledge (which can not be questioned). They > were > > > >very clear when they appreciate the knowledge of Greeks because > > they > > > >were of the opinion " tamso ma jyotirgamay " means we must go > ahead > > > >towards knowledge from ignorance. For the purpose of knowledge > > they > > > >were following " Vasudevam kutumbkam " means whole world is a > > family. > > > >Thus they adopted sign system and other knowledge from Greeks > and > > > >mixed it with our constellational system and religious concept > of > > > >formation of universe. Thus our sages formulated basic > principles > > > >like sign lord, aspect, friendship, exalted, dasha and so on > > (refer > > > >my book in Hindi or in English for detailed procedure etc.), by > > which > > > >they were able to forecast some thing which happens to be true > > > >(psychologically, and this phenomena was not known till 18th > > > >century). Thus Greeks then Romans adopted these principles and > > > >subsequently slightly modified (aspect) as Western system, > whereas > > > >sign lord etc are same. As we Indians are not aware that concept > > of > > > >sign belongs to Greek / Babylonia likewise Western countries are > > not > > > >aware that sign lord etc. principles were formulated by our > sages > > on > > > >the basis of religious myth that Earth is stationary, Sun is > > nearer > > > >then Moon, all constellation are just above Moon and so on. In > > this > > > >way where we Indians are being befooled in the name of Ved, > sages; > > > >likewise western countries were being befooled that predictive > > > >principals were formulated by Ptolemy and now everyone is after > > > >socalled " Vedic astrology " without knowing that there is no > > > >predictive astrology in Ved. Thus predictive astrology is merely > a > > > >psychological game like magic. We must enjoy this game but must > > not > > > >be lured like a fool who may be lured by creation of currency > > notes > > > >from a box by a magician and left his job in the hope to create > > note > > > >from that box.> > > >> > > >So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must > find > > > >out the procedure as to how all basic principles were formulated > > and > > > >is their any scientific logic (in view of modern knowledge) or > > not. > > > >> > > >Some points were discussed in brief (refer SOA_______ files in > > file > > > >section) because followers of astrology, could not stand after > > > >raising very simple arguments and further discussion could not > be > > > >done. I hope that after +35 years of experience you may like to > > > >discuss on any point.> > > >> > > >Thanks,> > > >Yours truly, > > > >Sanat> > > >> > > >PS: Sh. Razdan Ji, Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji may > please > > > >come forward with reply on my comments. Silence is not a > solution. > > > >Silently reading is also not a solution. When we are in a forum > > then > > > >either we must educate other members or may improve our > knowledge. > > > >Remaining " as it is " is not a good sign. For improvement we must > > have > > > >inquisitive mind. I am ready to learn from expert astrologers > but > > not > > > >as blind supporter. If Astrology is science then it must cross > all > > > >questions and must have logical answers to all sort of doubt.> > > >> > > > > > > >> > > >> > > > , " rongaunt@ au " > > > ><rongaunt@> wrote:> > > >>> > > >> > > > >> Friends,> > > >> > > > >> I am new to the forum, but have a fair knowledge of astrology > as> > > >> it has been my hobby for over 35 years. I am all for> > > >> questioning the validity of the subject, as I suspect that many> > > >> many astrologers, are very gullible because they have not > > > >> studied deeply enough to realise that the permutations in> > > >> astrology run into the millions. Again most do not realise > that> > > >> it is possible to see anything and everything you want to see > > > >> after the event with ANY and EVERY system, due to the enormous> > > >> number of permutations. And f course, very few if any, go on > to> > > >> achieve good predictions. > > > >> > > > >> I think I have looked at just about every astrological system > and> > > >> method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, and> > > >> others do not give consistently good results. It has been my > aim> > > >> to find one that does work, and to this end I started possibly> > > >> the first of the regulat Blind Charts tests on the Web many > years> > > >> ago. I hoped to find a system that really did work. It is> > > >> only in the last year or so that I have found such a system,> > > >> which drew my attention because the students of a particular > > > >> astrological institution kept getting correct results in our> > > >> Blind Chart tests. The system is the Khullar method of > Cuspal> > > >> Interlinks. > > > >> > > > >> Anyhow my intention in writing this mail was to point out that > it> > > >> is not very practical to furnish personal data and then predict > > > >> from it, because the waiting time for the prediction means> > > >> everyone will lose interest long before the event does or does> > > >> not happen. It would be much better to get members to furnish> > > >> data, to include some events and family birthdates in order to > be> > > >> able to rectify the chart, and give say four options which> > > >> participants will check to find out which of these options > > > >> happened on a given date. This is real life astrology and is> > > >> almost as good as future prediction, because you use exactly > the> > > >> same methods on an unknown event. > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> Ron Gaunt> > > >> > > > >> > > > >> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:44:09 -0000, you wrote: > > > >> > > > >> >Shri Jagannathan Kapisthalamji,> > > >> >Namaskar!> > > >> ><If you can furnish your date of birth,place and time of > birth > > let > > > >us > > > >> >try some astrological predictions and see whether they work.?>> > > >> >> > > >> >My late maternal grandfather used to make predictions from > > > >horoscopes > > > >> >prepared from Grahalaghava panchangas, which were anything > but > > > >> >correct, and that was admitted by the Panchanga makers > > > >themselves! > > > >> >Quite often his predictions proved correct!> > > >> >> > > >> >Does that prove that any predictive gimmicks are either > > scientific > > > >or > > > >> >Vedic? No. That cannot be so, since Grahalaghava was/is > > neither a > > > >> >Vedic work nor a scientific one! > > > >> >> > > >> >Thus even if some astrologers are able to make some correct > > > >> >predictions about some one sometimes, that never means/proves > > that > > > >> >those predictions were either on a scientific basis or as per > > the > > > >> >Vedic lore! All that proves is that sometimes some guess > works > > do > > > >> >prove correct and that is why more often than not, correct > > > >preictions > > > >> >are made only from incorrect data, whether birth particulars > or > > > >> >astronomical data, since Lahiri Ayanamsha in itself is the > most > > > >> >monstrous ayanamsha that could ever have been invented by any > > > >> >charlatan!! And it is on the basis of only that ayanamsha > that > > > >ninety-> > > >> >nine per cent predictions are made these days!> > > >> >With regards, > > > >> >A K Kaul> > > >> >> > > >> > , " Jagannathan > > > >Kapisthalam " > > > >> ><jagannathankr@> wrote:> > > >> >>> > > >> >> Dear Sir,> > > >> >> Your article is quite interesting.If you can furnish your > > date of> > > >> >> birth,place and time of birth let us try some astrological > > > >> >predictions and> > > >> >> see whether they work.?This is only out of academic > interest.> > > >> >> Regards,> > > >> >> jagannathan.> > > >> >> > > > >> >> On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > >> >> >> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > Resp. members,> > > >> >> > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of > > discussion > > > >on> > > >> >> > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am > enclosing > > my > > > >old> > > >> >> > blog placed in the file section so that members may read > it > > and> > > >> >> > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not > > reacting > > > >> >with a> > > >> >> > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though > they > > are> > > >> >> > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can > > interact > > > >on > > > >> >my> > > >> >> > email sanatkumar_jain@ <sanatkumar_jain% 40rediffmail.com>> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > So far members have observed that supporters of astrology > > are > > > >> >either> > > >> >> > interested in by passing the main point or they have only > > > >faith on> > > >> >> > astrology without any scientific or logical support to > any > > > >> >concept.> > > >> >> > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others > to > > > >follow > > > >> >the > > > >> >> > path of ignorance.> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am > always > > > >> >interested > > > >> >> > in looking deep.> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > Thanks> > > >> >> > Sanat> > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH> > > >> >> > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking to > > some> > > >> >> > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not > > studied > > > >in > > > >> >depth> > > >> >> > but you only have faith, because you have been informed > > like > > > >> >this. So > > > >> >> > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself as > to > > > >> >whether> > > >> >> > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of > > science > > > >due > > > >> >to> > > >> >> > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the > sentiments > > of> > > >> >> > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I > only > > > >want to> > > >> >> > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then let > > us > > > >> >examine> > > >> >> > it and then there will be no question of hurting, because > > you > > > >have> > > >> >> > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you are > > > >standing > > > >> >in > > > >> >> > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which has > > been> > > >> >> > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that astrology > > is a> > > >> >> > science without knowing the story of other side. I can > > > >understand > > > >> >the> > > >> >> > problem of astrologer that they will loose their business > > but > > > >if > > > >> >you> > > >> >> > are a client then you must have right to know the truth > or > > > >call an > > > >> >> > astrologer in the consumer forum.> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > At the time of formulating the astrological principles in > > early > > > >> >> > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living being > > has> > > >> >> > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. > This > > > >> >religious> > > >> >> > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet > > (Sun, > > > >> >Moon,> > > >> >> > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those days > > only > > > >> >sages> > > >> >> > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus > > after> > > >> >> > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the skill > > to > > > >> >predict> > > >> >> > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-> called > > > >> >grabbing> > > >> >> > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and > Ketu.> > > >> >> > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse and > its> > > >> >> > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer > > > >donations > > > >> >etc.> > > >> >> > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, > which > > is > > > >> >still > > > >> >> > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate > of > > > >> >everybody> > > >> >> > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this > > > >situation, > > > >> >it> > > >> >> > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict > the > > > >fate > > > >> >of > > > >> >> > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not predict > > the > > > >> >fate of> > > >> >> > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate > > various> > > >> >> > astrological principles on the basis of the then > knowledge > > of > > > >> >sages> > > >> >> > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. > These > > > >> >principles> > > >> >> > were the key factors for deciding the fate.> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was never > > > >> >percolated> > > >> >> > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard barrier > to > > > >learn> > > >> >> > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these > > principles > > > >were> > > >> >> > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as > > Western > > > >> >system.> > > >> >> > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. One > > group> > > >> >> > belongs to astrologers who always try to support > astrology > > due > > > >to> > > >> >> > their business considerations (these astrologers always > try > > to > > > >fit> > > >> >> > past event very precisely within some astrological > > principle > > > >> >within a> > > >> >> > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and > > faith > > > >etc.,> > > >> >> > but they are unable to predict any future event. Because > > > >> >astrological> > > >> >> > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too > > diabolical> > > >> >> > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in > > fluke) > > > >may > > > >> >come> > > >> >> > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and > > start > > > >self> > > >> >> > praising instead of applying the same socalled principle > on > > > >other> > > >> >> > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can only > > > >mislead,> > > >> >> > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You > can > > > >find > > > >> >that> > > >> >> > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other > group > > (say> > > >> >> > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against > > > >astrology. > > > >> >But> > > >> >> > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what > was > > the > > > >> >level> > > >> >> > of information of sages about the Universe, who developed> > > >> >> > astrological principles in primitive age and what > procedure > > was> > > >> >> > adopted to formulate various principles relating to > > Lordship,> > > >> >> > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, > Vinshottary> > > >> >> > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles > then > > > >> >following> > > >> >> > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given in > > > >> >subpara).> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs among > > seven> > > >> >> > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the > > > >stationary> > > >> >> > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is > enmity > > and> > > >> >> > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are > > enemy > > > >of > > > >> >each> > > >> >> > other) ?> > > >> >> > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and > > demons > > > >over> > > >> >> > nector after sea-churning………..> > > >> >> > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect > > (full, > > > >> >quarter> > > >> >> > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full aspect > on > > > >> >seventh> > > >> >> > house) ? > > > >> >> > Based on the position of army in the battle field………..> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are > > > >exalted > > > >> >and> > > >> >> > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 deg. > of > > > >Aries> > > >> >> > sign) ? > > > >> >> > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when > duration > > of > > > >the> > > >> >> > day is more in comparison to night…… > > > >> >> > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most powerful > > and > > > >hub > > > >> >of> > > >> >> > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha > whereas > > > >Venus > > > >> >(a> > > >> >> > small planet) has 20 years ?> > > >> >> > Based on two triangles derived after working out the > effect > > of> > > >> >> > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted…….> > > >> >> > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various > > constellations > > > >> >between> > > >> >> > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ?> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of a > > week> > > >> >> > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > > >> >> > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in the > > > >> >structure> > > >> >> > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde > > motion > > > >of> > > >> >> > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse…..> > > >> >> > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu > are > > 180 > > > >> >deg. > > > >> >> > apart?> > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse………..> > > >> >> > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of > eclipse ?> > > >> >> > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation month……….> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final > question > > as > > > >to> > > >> >> > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some one > > gave> > > >> >> > answers to these questions then he will realize that > entire> > > >> >> > astrological principles are totally based on wrong > concept > > of> > > >> >> > Universe.> > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the > then> > > >> >> > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was developed > by > > > >sage> > > >> >> > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth is > in > > the> > > >> >> > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also > believed > > in > > > >all> > > >> >> > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may > read > > any > > > >old> > > >> >> > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas > Moon > > is > > > >> >beyond> > > >> >> > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury > and > > > >Moon.> > > >> >> > You may be surprised to know that all astrological > > principles > > > >are> > > >> >> > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self > studying > > > >> >astrology> > > >> >> > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude > > correct> > > >> >> > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same > > > >combination is> > > >> >> > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh > > logically > > > >and> > > >> >> > systematically over this subject and I find that > Primitive > > > >concept> > > >> >> > (when astrology was developed) requires full overhauling > in > > > >view > > > >> >of> > > >> >> > modern scientific astronomy, according to which primitive > > > >concept > > > >> >of> > > >> >> > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed.> > > >> >> > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > > > >> >astrology " Jyotish - > > > >> >> > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book > > > >contains > > > >> >the> > > >> >> > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these principles > on > > > >the > > > >> >basis> > > >> >> > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads our > > > >sages to > > > >> >> > formulate these principles. This book was also published > in > > > >> >English> > > >> >> > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 pages). > > The > > > >> >book is> > > >> >> > being marketed in USA /UK etc.> > > >> >> > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > > > >> >produktID=1759836> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp? > AUB=sanat%> > > >> >20kumar%> > > >> >> > 20jain & TAG= & CID=> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > > >> >> > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, > > Neptune > > > >nor > > > >> >they> > > >> >> > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due to > > > >presence > > > >> >of > > > >> >> > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have developed > > the > > > >> >concept> > > >> >> > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It was > > > >> >mentioned in> > > >> >> > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu came > > > >within 14> > > >> >> > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full > Moon). > > But > > > >> >nobody> > > >> >> > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar > eclipse > > > >when > > > >> >Sun, > > > >> >> > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree > > > >respectively > > > >> >on> > > >> >> > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, > Moon > > > >and > > > >> >Ketu> > > >> >> > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively on > 03-> > 03-> > > >> >1988 ( > > > >> >> > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that Solar > > > >eclipses> > > >> >> > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was > > more > > > >then> > > >> >> > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was at > > > >79.04 > > > >> >deg.> > > >> >> > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon > were > > at > > > >> >76.49> > > >> >> > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 (Rahu > > was > > > >15.14> > > >> >> > deg. away). > > > >> >> > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, you > > will > > > >also> > > >> >> > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse > > occurred > > > >at > > > >> >the> > > >> >> > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though > it > > was > > > >not > > > >> >> > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the > basis > > of > > > >> >myth).> > > >> >> > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar eclipse, > > when > > > >Moon> > > >> >> > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be > > there. > > > >But > > > >> >As > > > >> >> > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-11-> > 1985 > > > >> >and 3-> > > >> >> > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there were > > full > > > >> >solar> > > >> >> > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 > degree> > > >> >> > respectively. You will agree that when there were full > > solar > > > >> >eclipses> > > >> >> > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 > and > > 166 > > > >> >degree > > > >> >> > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may > > > >possible.> > > >> >> > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in > > > >almanac. > > > >> >Thus> > > >> >> > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees > > > >respectively. > > > >> >All > > > >> >> > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this > > > >fundamental> > > >> >> > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If you > > want > > > >> >then I> > > >> >> > can give many more examples and very simple method of > > > >detecting > > > >> >them. > > > >> >> > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a > > science > > > >but > > > >> >in> > > >> >> > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of > > astronomy +> > > >> >> > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, > > psychology> > > >> >> > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive > age) > > > >> >played an> > > >> >> > important role in handling a person by the astrologer due > > to > > > >> >immense> > > >> >> > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive > astrology > > > >> >appears to> > > >> >> > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You will > > also > > > >> >agree> > > >> >> > with the above observation after going through my original> > > >> >> > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-> > decided > > > >as > > > >> >was> > > >> >> > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we > may > > try > > > >to > > > >> >do> > > >> >> > some thing, because every thing will take place according > > to > > > >pre- > > > >> >> > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of > > modifying > > > >that > > > >> >pre-> > > >> >> > written destiny, because if we try to change only our > fate, > > > >even > > > >> >then> > > >> >> > all attached happening will automatically change creating > a > > > >> >cascading > > > >> >> > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate of > > every> > > >> >> > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written or > > say > > > >pre-> > > >> >> > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because > when > > > >every > > > >> >Tom,> > > >> >> > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to worship, > > good > > > >> >deed> > > >> >> > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain under > > > >change. > > > >> >You > > > >> >> > will agree that astrology is totally based on mathematical> > > >> >> > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed and > > can > > > >> >never> > > >> >> > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart > > cannot be> > > >> >> > altered it means result of calculation or say prediction > is > > > >also> > > >> >> > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is ever > > > >> >prewritten)> > > >> >> > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. > > because > > > >in> > > >> >> > that case, if you like to say, then future events will be > > > >altered > > > >> >but> > > >> >> > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked > prediction > > > >can be> > > >> >> > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed > transit > > of> > > >> >> > planets? > > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest > > > >assured > > > >> >that> > > >> >> > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. > Only > > > >> >astronomy> > > >> >> > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were > used> > > >> >> > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it > appears > > > >> >correct.> > > >> >> > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a > > myth. > > > >> >Still if> > > >> >> > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you contact > > The > > > >James> > > >> >> > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 > > prize to> > > >> >> > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e- > mail > > and> > > >> >> > website is jref@ <jref%40randi.org> and > > > >> >http://www.randi.orgBecause modern> > > >> >> > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are being > > used > > > >to> > > >> >> > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested > > > >business> > > >> >> > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight > > this > > > >sort > > > >> >of> > > >> >> > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in > this > > > >regard > > > >> >> > and readers of the book are fully convinced that astrology> > > >> >> > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to > > formulate > > > >> >> > principles was neither logical nor based on correct > > > >information of> > > >> >> > Universe, solar system.> > > >> >> > > > > >> >> > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and > > facts, > > > >data> > > >> >> > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward to > > join > > > >> >hands> > > >> >> > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society).> > > >> >> > Sanat Kumar Jain> > > >> >> > Think differently, Think logically and Think > scientifically> > > >> >> >> > > >> >> > > > > >> >> >> > > >> >>> > > >> >> > > >> > > > > >> >> > > >> >---> > > >> >> > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 2, 2008 Report Share Posted August 2, 2008 Dear Jain Sahib, Namaskar! Let me clarify something about your PS first---Kethu being at 115° when the moon is at 105°: The following few lines are being quoted from " Practical Astronomy with your calculator " by Peter Duffet-Smith,Cambridge University Press) page 153---under the heading " The rules of eclipses " and can be understood even by a layman: " Here is a summary of the most important 'rules' which appear to govern the occurence of eclipses (a) A lunar eclipse can occur only at full Moon and a solar eclipse at new Moon. There is not an eclipse every month. (b) At least two solar eclipses occur every year, and never more than five. There are a maximum of three lunar eclipses in a year. The highest total number of eclipses in a year, lunar and solar, is seven. © Eclipses tend to go in pairs or threes: solar---lunar---solar. A lunar eclipse is always preceded or followed by a solar eclipse (two weeks in between them) (d) The pattern of eclipses tends to recur in cycles of 18 yers 11 days and 8 hours, the so-called 'Saros cycle'. The pattern is not repeated exactly. (e) At the moment of greatest eclipse the Sun and Moon are either in opposition or conjunction. If the angle between the line of nodes and the Sun or Moon is greater than 12° 15' a total lunar eclipse is not possible, while if it is less than 9° 30' a lunar eclipse must occur. If the angle is more than 18° 31' a solar eclipse canot happen, while if it is less than 15° 31' a solar eclipse must occur. (f) In a lunar eclipse, the total phase can last for a maximum time of 1 hour 40 minutes, and the umbral phase, partial-total-partial, for a maximum time of 3 hours 40 minutes. The maximum time of total solar elipse (at the equator) is 7 minutes 40 seconds and an annular eclipse can last at most for 12 minutes and 24 seconds " I hope it clarifies the situation that Kethu can be away from the Moon by upto 15° 31' (or even 18° 31') during a solar eclipse. WE MUST NOT FORGET THAT A REAL TOTAL SOLAR ECLIPSE WHICH ENGULFS THE ENTIRE GLOBE ---AT LEAST THE HALF OF IT----IN DARNKESS IS NEVER POSSIBLE BEFORE THE " DOOMSDAY " ! However, a total lunar eclipse can and does happen very often without any " doomsday " , but it will " engulf " only that portion in darkness where the moon is " visible " Regards, AKK , " sanat2221 " <sanatkumar_jain wrote: > > Resp Kaul ji, > Namaskar, > Thanks for your encouraging msg. on my reply to Mr. Ron. Let us see, > what he and other members of the forum specially Sh. Razdan Ji, > Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji want to say, who are silent > since long. > > You may have observed that I am time and again reminding members of > our forum to come forward for sharing their views, but unfortunately > they like to live in tunnel of faith without any fresh air of logical > approach. As I have already spent +35 years on astrology hence I want > to share my views. I am open to all and ready to discuss any point to > any length, to find some truth. Since last 5 years (after publication > of my hindi book), I have discussed with many astrologers but none of > them is able to answer basic and logical questions and privately > admit that they also experienced many failures but due to business > considerations and respect which they get from their clients, they > are not willing to oppose astrology though they are convinced with > the content my book that foundation is based on primitive knowledge. > But what we can do except either to learn something from the > interaction or inform about the hollow astrological principals. > > I find that you are member of many forums hence I will like to > request you that if some astrologers are interested in interaction > then please invite him in our forum for open and uncensored > interaction on predictive astrology. I find that many forums are only > busy in promoting their business and do not want any sincere analysis. > > Thanks > > Yours truly, > Sanat > > PS : Now each and every astrological book, magazine and astrologers > are explaining (or befooling) that Rahu and Ketu are intersection > point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though this was not the concept > of our sages). Today on 1-8-8, there is total solar eclipse when Sun > and Moon may be at +105 degree but Ketu is at 115 degree. Now > everybody knows that at the time of total solar eclipse Moon is going > to intersect the orbit of the Sun and during intersection Sun happens > to be on the point of intersection hence we can see total solar > eclipse. Now my question to the members of the forum is that what > Ketu (which is intersection point of orbits) is doing at 115 degree, > whereas it must be at 105 degree the location where Sun and Moon are > transiting. Thus can't member realize that position of these shadow > planets in the horoscopes is wrong. (other such examples are also > given in my blog `Astrology a science or myth') > Hope to have some answer for further discussion. Members may discuss > personally to other astrologers or consult in other forums if they do > not have any answer. > sanat > > > > > , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > Dear Jain Sahib, > > Excellent analysis! > > Congratulations for dissecting such a terse subject as " astrology " -- > - > > about which literally trillions of volumes have been written---in > > such a simple yet pithy manner! > > Regards, > > AKK > > , " sanat2221 " > > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Resp Ron, > > > Thanks for your comments. > > > At least thanks for admitting that Hindu (vedic) and western and > KP > > > systems are not working correctly. Hence you have left them and > > > adopted a new Khullar system. > > > > > > Khullar system is a mixture of Hindu and KP system; whereas KP > > system > > > is a mixture of Hindu and Western system. So indirectly Khullar > > > system has adopted a way of old wine in new bottle. I have also > > tried > > > to fuse these both systems in many ways and result of fusion may > be > > > seen in `Eskain horoscope' in file section. But again like head > and > > > tail of a coin, some prediction may right randomly but same > > > combination is not working in another horoscope. It will take > some > > > more time to you to realize that this system is also not working. > > > Because basic building block of this system too, like all others, > > is > > > based on sign, sign lord, cusp (which is a reverse copy of > > > Vinshottary dasha " ), friendship, exalted etc. Until unless these > > > building blocks of predictive astrology may have some scientific > or > > > logical theory behind them till then how you can say that some > > thing > > > can be predicted. Because only that event can be predicted which > is > > > predestined and take your time to realize / think that even if a > > > single event of future of any one life is fixed then whole > sequence > > > of event of the life may automatically be fixed. This in turn may > > fix > > > the sequence of event of other life. Thus whole set up will be > > fixed. > > > Then where is the use of knowing the future or where is the scope > > of > > > amending any unpleasant event. > > > > > > You have mentioned an event of > > > >>>>>>> one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw > that > > > she > > > was likely to die the following day even though she had no known > > > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long > > > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared > > > fine, but the following day she died as indicated.<<<<<<<<<<. In > > this > > > connection I will like to say that every predictive system either > > it > > > may be astrology or KP system, Western system, Magi system, Lal > > > kitab, numerology, Terro card, palmistry, Nadi shastra, face > > > reading, signature reading, Vaastu, and so on have so many > stories > > to > > > tell but none of them is correct and all of them are > > psychologically > > > correct or randomly correct. Thus there is no logic in believing > > any > > > random forecast to amend our plan, decision in any respect. etc. > If > > > above story of death of mother is right in your opinion then the > > > combination in horoscope by which death may be known would have > > been > > > published in scientific journal and Khullar himself would have > been > > > appointed as chief boss of all Insurance companies to see as to > > > whether life insurance of a person may be done or not. Thus you > can > > > see that only a single forecast based on combination of planets > may > > > lead to flow of money then what would happen if a system > (khullar) > > > would have been correct in many respect ie. It may tell about > job, > > > promotion, illness, health and so on. You may please intimate the > > > planetary cuspal combination of the horoscope by which death was > > > decoded for the benefit of the members of the forum, who may take > > > benefit of such a combination and get insured. Do not take it > > > otherwise, I am seriously requesting you and if you don't have > that > > > combination then you may intimate some other combination, or you > > may > > > check yourself the viability of the system and get rid off. > > > > > > Our basic question is still pending that so long any one is not > > able > > > to know that how basic building block of predictive astrology > (sign > > > lord etc. ) were formulated and whether procedure adopted has > some > > > scientific or logical approach till then we all are bound to fall > > in > > > one or another trap. I am saying so that I find (not to say after > > how > > > much labour) that all predictive principles were formulated on > > > primitive myth, knowledge, tradition etc. and thus these > principles > > > have no logical or scientific support in view of modern > knowledge. > > If > > > Hindu (so called vedic) astrology would have been correct then > > what > > > was the need to modify it as western and in turn as KP system > and > > in > > > turn as Khullar system and what was the need to create so many > > other > > > systems like palmistry etc. It is not for improving an existing > > > system, otherwise all previous systems would have been buried and > > > some new correct system would have been survived and in turn > every > > > one would have been realized as to how our ole astrologer were > > wrong. > > > But you can see that every system is going on, because every > system > > > has some business and followers. But you are right that after > > > realizing some mistake you have jumped to some new system and it > is > > > correct way of analyzing a system, because you may not be a > > > practitioner astrologer. Otherwise you may have stick to any one > > > system and anyhow support that system like many astrologers. > > > > > > Thus you were initially right when you think : > > > >>>>>>> Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful > > about > > > the > > > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system. > > > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions, > > > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully > > > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any > > > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct > > > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led > > > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting > > > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the > > > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me > > > eager see why they were successful.<<<< > > > and now no need to go for blind chart, you may check and announce > > > when Osama will die or likewise some other definite prediction > > about > > > any one in the world and continue to serve many Govt. > > > > > > Hope to receive some tested principles of khullar for definite > > > prediction, which may not have some psychological mixture for the > > > larger benefit of the members. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Yours truly, > > > Sanat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rongaunt@ au " > > > <rongaunt@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Sanat, > > > > > > > > I respond to the extracted part of your message where you say: > > > > > > > > 'So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must > > > > find out the procedure as to how all basic principles were > > > > formulated and is their any scientific logic (in view of modern > > > > knowledge) or not.' > > > > > > > > Now this is a most scientific approach you have taken!! You > have > > > > obviously already taken the stance that Mr Khullar's work is > > > > bogus or you would not say 'falling into another trap by > > > > Khullar'. > > > > > > > > I have serious doubts that you have studied his work at all, > > > > never mind being intimately aquatinted with it. So your > > > > unfounded prejudice for a scientific observer is obvious for all > > > > to see, and is clearly hypocritical if you have not studied the > > > > subject. I think most would agree your approach here at least > is > > > > MOST UNSCIENTIFIC. > > > > > > > > For your information the Khullar system is by far the most > > > > scientific of all astrology I have come across. Mr Khullar > > > > examined in detail both Western and Hindu astrology. He took > > > > much from the traditions of the Hindus, and from Nadi astrology. > > > > He went right to the source of their ideas and worked out > > > > exactly why they were quoting certain important slokas. He > > > > then incorporated these ideas into a major advancement on the KP > > > > system using cuspal interlinks. > > > > > > > > I personally gave up believing authors have all (or even) some > of > > > > the answers all of the time, so I thoroughly check everything > > > > stated. If I find a system not working as stated even once I > > > > start having reservations. When I see it doesn't work quite a > > > > few times I discard it. I have not been able to do this with > > > > the Khullar system because it does work. > > > > > > > > Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful about the > > > > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system. > > > > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions, > > > > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully > > > > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any > > > > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct > > > > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led > > > > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting > > > > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the > > > > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me > > > > eager see why they were successful. > > > > > > > > I think any experienced astrologer would agree that even if you > > > > ask a number of astrologers - all following the same system - > > > > to assess or predict for an event they will invariably all come > > > > up with a different answer. > > > > > > > > This does not happen in KCIL because all charts are rectified by > > > > strict criteria, and invariably all students come up with the > > > > same rectified chart. They all assess the event to get the > > > > same answer because the cuspal interlinks are specific to the > > > > chart and the rules are clearly laid down. This is extremely > > > > scientific astrology. > > > > > > > > Apart from success in Blind Charts there has been extremely good > > > > predictions ie births to the day and a narrow time frame. Also > > > > one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw that she > > > > was likely to die the following day even though she had no known > > > > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long > > > > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared > > > > fine, but the following day she died as indicated. How many > > > > astrologers using other systems would be sufficiently confident > > > > to do this? > > > > > > > > We have seen other things which validate the system, such as > > > > Mr Khullar declaring that a certain person could not have been > > > > born in a certain part of city because the events of the life > and > > > > family connections did not line up in regard to the relevant > > > > house cusps. He then stated where the person was likely to > have > > > > been born. Checking with the native the position chosen was > > > > almost spot on. There are many other reasons that indicate > > > > that the system does work. > > > > > > > > So Sanat, first study this system in detail then pronounce on > > > > it, that is the truly scientific way. Your opinion may then > > > > carry some weight but until then it is difficult for anyone to > > > > take your opinions (at least on this matter) seriously. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ron Gaunt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:13:14 -0000, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >Dear Ron, > > > > >Welcome in the forum for your first msg. > > > > >You have good knowledge of astrology, still you are not > > convinced > > > > >with any system and advocating an another Khullar system. I am > > > > >reproducing your stand > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>Again most do not realise that it is possible to see > > > anything > > > > >and everything you want to see after the event with ANY and > > EVERY > > > > >system, due to the enormous number of permutations. > > > > >I think I have looked at just about every astrological system > > and > > > > >method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, and > > > others > > > > >do not give consistently good results. <<<<<<<<<<< > > > > > > > > > >against you. Because it makes no difference as to whether we > are > > > > >linking any past event with some principles or we are linking > > > future > > > > >prediction with our psychology. If I will say your next month > is > > > not > > > > >good and you have faith on predictive astrology, then every > > > > >psychological odd in next month will be linked with this > > > prediction > > > > >and in sub-conscious mind you may bent upon to think that > > > astrology > > > > >is correct. So it has no relevancy at all. > > > > > > > > > >We in India are being befooled and cheated by astrologers > since > > > 2000 > > > > >years without knowing that sign was devised by Greeks and > > adopted > > > by > > > > >us without any religious support. Because mass population > always > > > > >remains uneducated and educated lot are being lured by crowd > of > > > heads > > > > >on shoulders (without knowing that their heads are empty in > this > > > > >respect) who follows some traditions. Cunning or ignorant > > > astrologers > > > > >after reading some latest books on astrology, full with praise > > of > > > > >sages and latest data of solar system thinks (and propagate) > > that > > > our > > > > >sages were well known with modern data. Thus they are able to > > > befool > > > > >ignorant public in the name of Ved, Sage, Myth and so on with > > the > > > > >help of Media and publicity. > > > > > > > > > >Bare fact is this that our sages were very logical and open to > > all > > > > >sort of logical knowledge (which can not be questioned). They > > were > > > > >very clear when they appreciate the knowledge of Greeks > because > > > they > > > > >were of the opinion " tamso ma jyotirgamay " means we must go > > ahead > > > > >towards knowledge from ignorance. For the purpose of knowledge > > > they > > > > >were following " Vasudevam kutumbkam " means whole world is a > > > family. > > > > >Thus they adopted sign system and other knowledge from Greeks > > and > > > > >mixed it with our constellational system and religious concept > > of > > > > >formation of universe. Thus our sages formulated basic > > principles > > > > >like sign lord, aspect, friendship, exalted, dasha and so on > > > (refer > > > > >my book in Hindi or in English for detailed procedure etc.), > by > > > which > > > > >they were able to forecast some thing which happens to be true > > > > >(psychologically, and this phenomena was not known till 18th > > > > >century). Thus Greeks then Romans adopted these principles and > > > > >subsequently slightly modified (aspect) as Western system, > > whereas > > > > >sign lord etc are same. As we Indians are not aware that > concept > > > of > > > > >sign belongs to Greek / Babylonia likewise Western countries > are > > > not > > > > >aware that sign lord etc. principles were formulated by our > > sages > > > on > > > > >the basis of religious myth that Earth is stationary, Sun is > > > nearer > > > > >then Moon, all constellation are just above Moon and so on. In > > > this > > > > >way where we Indians are being befooled in the name of Ved, > > sages; > > > > >likewise western countries were being befooled that predictive > > > > >principals were formulated by Ptolemy and now everyone is > after > > > > >socalled " Vedic astrology " without knowing that there is no > > > > >predictive astrology in Ved. Thus predictive astrology is > merely > > a > > > > >psychological game like magic. We must enjoy this game but > must > > > not > > > > >be lured like a fool who may be lured by creation of currency > > > notes > > > > >from a box by a magician and left his job in the hope to > create > > > note > > > > >from that box. > > > > > > > > > >So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must > > find > > > > >out the procedure as to how all basic principles were > formulated > > > and > > > > >is their any scientific logic (in view of modern knowledge) or > > > not. > > > > > > > > > >Some points were discussed in brief (refer SOA_______ files in > > > file > > > > >section) because followers of astrology, could not stand after > > > > >raising very simple arguments and further discussion could not > > be > > > > >done. I hope that after +35 years of experience you may like > to > > > > >discuss on any point. > > > > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > >Yours truly, > > > > >Sanat > > > > > > > > > >PS: Sh. Razdan Ji, Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji may > > please > > > > >come forward with reply on my comments. Silence is not a > > solution. > > > > >Silently reading is also not a solution. When we are in a > forum > > > then > > > > >either we must educate other members or may improve our > > knowledge. > > > > >Remaining " as it is " is not a good sign. For improvement we > must > > > have > > > > >inquisitive mind. I am ready to learn from expert astrologers > > but > > > not > > > > >as blind supporter. If Astrology is science then it must cross > > all > > > > >questions and must have logical answers to all sort of doubt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rongaunt@ au " > > > > ><rongaunt@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Friends, > > > > >> > > > > >> I am new to the forum, but have a fair knowledge of > astrology > > as > > > > >> it has been my hobby for over 35 years. I am all for > > > > >> questioning the validity of the subject, as I suspect that > many > > > > >> many astrologers, are very gullible because they have not > > > > >> studied deeply enough to realise that the permutations in > > > > >> astrology run into the millions. Again most do not realise > > that > > > > >> it is possible to see anything and everything you want to see > > > > >> after the event with ANY and EVERY system, due to the > enormous > > > > >> number of permutations. And f course, very few if any, go > on > > to > > > > >> achieve good predictions. > > > > >> > > > > >> I think I have looked at just about every astrological > system > > and > > > > >> method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, > and > > > > >> others do not give consistently good results. It has been > my > > aim > > > > >> to find one that does work, and to this end I started > possibly > > > > >> the first of the regulat Blind Charts tests on the Web many > > years > > > > >> ago. I hoped to find a system that really did work. It is > > > > >> only in the last year or so that I have found such a system, > > > > >> which drew my attention because the students of a particular > > > > >> astrological institution kept getting correct results in our > > > > >> Blind Chart tests. The system is the Khullar method of > > Cuspal > > > > >> Interlinks. > > > > >> > > > > >> Anyhow my intention in writing this mail was to point out > that > > it > > > > >> is not very practical to furnish personal data and then > predict > > > > >> from it, because the waiting time for the prediction means > > > > >> everyone will lose interest long before the event does or > does > > > > >> not happen. It would be much better to get members to > furnish > > > > >> data, to include some events and family birthdates in order > to > > be > > > > >> able to rectify the chart, and give say four options which > > > > >> participants will check to find out which of these options > > > > >> happened on a given date. This is real life astrology and > is > > > > >> almost as good as future prediction, because you use exactly > > the > > > > >> same methods on an unknown event. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Ron Gaunt > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:44:09 -0000, you wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> >Shri Jagannathan Kapisthalamji, > > > > >> >Namaskar! > > > > >> ><If you can furnish your date of birth,place and time of > > birth > > > let > > > > >us > > > > >> >try some astrological predictions and see whether they > work.?> > > > > >> > > > > > >> >My late maternal grandfather used to make predictions from > > > > >horoscopes > > > > >> >prepared from Grahalaghava panchangas, which were anything > > but > > > > >> >correct, and that was admitted by the Panchanga makers > > > > >themselves! > > > > >> >Quite often his predictions proved correct! > > > > >> > > > > > >> >Does that prove that any predictive gimmicks are either > > > scientific > > > > >or > > > > >> >Vedic? No. That cannot be so, since Grahalaghava was/is > > > neither a > > > > >> >Vedic work nor a scientific one! > > > > >> > > > > > >> >Thus even if some astrologers are able to make some correct > > > > >> >predictions about some one sometimes, that never > means/proves > > > that > > > > >> >those predictions were either on a scientific basis or as > per > > > the > > > > >> >Vedic lore! All that proves is that sometimes some guess > > works > > > do > > > > >> >prove correct and that is why more often than not, correct > > > > >preictions > > > > >> >are made only from incorrect data, whether birth > particulars > > or > > > > >> >astronomical data, since Lahiri Ayanamsha in itself is the > > most > > > > >> >monstrous ayanamsha that could ever have been invented by > any > > > > >> >charlatan!! And it is on the basis of only that ayanamsha > > that > > > > >ninety- > > > > >> >nine per cent predictions are made these days! > > > > >> >With regards, > > > > >> >A K Kaul > > > > >> > > > > > >> > , " Jagannathan > > > > >Kapisthalam " > > > > >> ><jagannathankr@> wrote: > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> Dear Sir, > > > > >> >> Your article is quite interesting.If you can furnish your > > > date of > > > > >> >> birth,place and time of birth let us try some > astrological > > > > >> >predictions and > > > > >> >> see whether they work.?This is only out of academic > > interest. > > > > >> >> Regards, > > > > >> >> jagannathan. > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > Resp. members, > > > > >> >> > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of > > > discussion > > > > >on > > > > >> >> > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am > > enclosing > > > my > > > > >old > > > > >> >> > blog placed in the file section so that members may > read > > it > > > and > > > > >> >> > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not > > > reacting > > > > >> >with a > > > > >> >> > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though > > they > > > are > > > > >> >> > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can > > > interact > > > > >on > > > > >> >my > > > > >> >> > email sanatkumar_jain@ <sanatkumar_jain% > 40rediffmail.com> > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > So far members have observed that supporters of > astrology > > > are > > > > >> >either > > > > >> >> > interested in by passing the main point or they have > only > > > > >faith on > > > > >> >> > astrology without any scientific or logical support to > > any > > > > >> >concept. > > > > >> >> > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others > > to > > > > >follow > > > > >> >the > > > > >> >> > path of ignorance. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am > > always > > > > >> >interested > > > > >> >> > in looking deep. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > Thanks > > > > >> >> > Sanat > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > > > >> >> > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking > to > > > some > > > > >> >> > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not > > > studied > > > > >in > > > > >> >depth > > > > >> >> > but you only have faith, because you have been informed > > > like > > > > >> >this. So > > > > >> >> > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself > as > > to > > > > >> >whether > > > > >> >> > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of > > > science > > > > >due > > > > >> >to > > > > >> >> > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the > > sentiments > > > of > > > > >> >> > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I > > only > > > > >want to > > > > >> >> > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then > let > > > us > > > > >> >examine > > > > >> >> > it and then there will be no question of hurting, > because > > > you > > > > >have > > > > >> >> > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you > are > > > > >standing > > > > >> >in > > > > >> >> > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which > has > > > been > > > > >> >> > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that > astrology > > > is a > > > > >> >> > science without knowing the story of other side. I can > > > > >understand > > > > >> >the > > > > >> >> > problem of astrologer that they will loose their > business > > > but > > > > >if > > > > >> >you > > > > >> >> > are a client then you must have right to know the truth > > or > > > > >call an > > > > >> >> > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > At the time of formulating the astrological principles > in > > > early > > > > >> >> > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living > being > > > has > > > > >> >> > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. > > This > > > > >> >religious > > > > >> >> > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet > > > (Sun, > > > > >> >Moon, > > > > >> >> > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those > days > > > only > > > > >> >sages > > > > >> >> > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus > > > after > > > > >> >> > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the > skill > > > to > > > > >> >predict > > > > >> >> > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so- > > called > > > > >> >grabbing > > > > >> >> > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and > > Ketu. > > > > >> >> > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse > and > > its > > > > >> >> > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer > > > > >donations > > > > >> >etc. > > > > >> >> > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, > > which > > > is > > > > >> >still > > > > >> >> > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate > > of > > > > >> >everybody > > > > >> >> > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this > > > > >situation, > > > > >> >it > > > > >> >> > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict > > the > > > > >fate > > > > >> >of > > > > >> >> > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not > predict > > > the > > > > >> >fate of > > > > >> >> > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate > > > various > > > > >> >> > astrological principles on the basis of the then > > knowledge > > > of > > > > >> >sages > > > > >> >> > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. > > These > > > > >> >principles > > > > >> >> > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was > never > > > > >> >percolated > > > > >> >> > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard > barrier > > to > > > > >learn > > > > >> >> > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these > > > principles > > > > >were > > > > >> >> > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as > > > Western > > > > >> >system. > > > > >> >> > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. > One > > > group > > > > >> >> > belongs to astrologers who always try to support > > astrology > > > due > > > > >to > > > > >> >> > their business considerations (these astrologers always > > try > > > to > > > > >fit > > > > >> >> > past event very precisely within some astrological > > > principle > > > > >> >within a > > > > >> >> > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and > > > faith > > > > >etc., > > > > >> >> > but they are unable to predict any future event. > Because > > > > >> >astrological > > > > >> >> > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too > > > diabolical > > > > >> >> > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in > > > fluke) > > > > >may > > > > >> >come > > > > >> >> > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and > > > start > > > > >self > > > > >> >> > praising instead of applying the same socalled > principle > > on > > > > >other > > > > >> >> > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can > only > > > > >mislead, > > > > >> >> > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You > > can > > > > >find > > > > >> >that > > > > >> >> > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other > > group > > > (say > > > > >> >> > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against > > > > >astrology. > > > > >> >But > > > > >> >> > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what > > was > > > the > > > > >> >level > > > > >> >> > of information of sages about the Universe, who > developed > > > > >> >> > astrological principles in primitive age and what > > procedure > > > was > > > > >> >> > adopted to formulate various principles relating to > > > Lordship, > > > > >> >> > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, > > Vinshottary > > > > >> >> > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles > > then > > > > >> >following > > > > >> >> > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given > in > > > > >> >subpara). > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs > among > > > seven > > > > >> >> > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the > > > > >stationary > > > > >> >> > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is > > enmity > > > and > > > > >> >> > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are > > > enemy > > > > >of > > > > >> >each > > > > >> >> > other) ? > > > > >> >> > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and > > > demons > > > > >over > > > > >> >> > nector after sea-churning……….. > > > > >> >> > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect > > > (full, > > > > >> >quarter > > > > >> >> > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full > aspect > > on > > > > >> >seventh > > > > >> >> > house) ? > > > > >> >> > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are > > > > >exalted > > > > >> >and > > > > >> >> > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 > deg. > > of > > > > >Aries > > > > >> >> > sign) ? > > > > >> >> > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when > > duration > > > of > > > > >the > > > > >> >> > day is more in comparison to night…… > > > > >> >> > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most > powerful > > > and > > > > >hub > > > > >> >of > > > > >> >> > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha > > whereas > > > > >Venus > > > > >> >(a > > > > >> >> > small planet) has 20 years ? > > > > >> >> > Based on two triangles derived after working out the > > effect > > > of > > > > >> >> > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > > > >> >> > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various > > > constellations > > > > >> >between > > > > >> >> > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of > a > > > week > > > > >> >> > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > > > >> >> > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in > the > > > > >> >structure > > > > >> >> > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde > > > motion > > > > >of > > > > >> >> > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > > > >> >> > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu > > are > > > 180 > > > > >> >deg. > > > > >> >> > apart? > > > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > > > >> >> > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of > > eclipse ? > > > > >> >> > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation > month………. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final > > question > > > as > > > > >to > > > > >> >> > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some > one > > > gave > > > > >> >> > answers to these questions then he will realize that > > entire > > > > >> >> > astrological principles are totally based on wrong > > concept > > > of > > > > >> >> > Universe. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the > > then > > > > >> >> > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was > developed > > by > > > > >sage > > > > >> >> > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth > is > > in > > > the > > > > >> >> > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also > > believed > > > in > > > > >all > > > > >> >> > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may > > read > > > any > > > > >old > > > > >> >> > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas > > Moon > > > is > > > > >> >beyond > > > > >> >> > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury > > and > > > > >Moon. > > > > >> >> > You may be surprised to know that all astrological > > > principles > > > > >are > > > > >> >> > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self > > studying > > > > >> >astrology > > > > >> >> > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude > > > correct > > > > >> >> > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same > > > > >combination is > > > > >> >> > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh > > > logically > > > > >and > > > > >> >> > systematically over this subject and I find that > > Primitive > > > > >concept > > > > >> >> > (when astrology was developed) requires full > overhauling > > in > > > > >view > > > > >> >of > > > > >> >> > modern scientific astronomy, according to which > primitive > > > > >concept > > > > >> >of > > > > >> >> > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > > > >> >> > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > > > > >> >astrology " Jyotish - > > > > >> >> > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book > > > > >contains > > > > >> >the > > > > >> >> > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these > principles > > on > > > > >the > > > > >> >basis > > > > >> >> > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads > our > > > > >sages to > > > > >> >> > formulate these principles. This book was also > published > > in > > > > >> >English > > > > >> >> > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 > pages). > > > The > > > > >> >book is > > > > >> >> > being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > > > >> >> > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > > > > >> >produktID=1759836 > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp? > > AUB=sanat% > > > > >> >20kumar% > > > > >> >> > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > > > >> >> > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, > > > Neptune > > > > >nor > > > > >> >they > > > > >> >> > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due > to > > > > >presence > > > > >> >of > > > > >> >> > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have > developed > > > the > > > > >> >concept > > > > >> >> > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It > was > > > > >> >mentioned in > > > > >> >> > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu > came > > > > >within 14 > > > > >> >> > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full > > Moon). > > > But > > > > >> >nobody > > > > >> >> > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar > > eclipse > > > > >when > > > > >> >Sun, > > > > >> >> > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree > > > > >respectively > > > > >> >on > > > > >> >> > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, > > Moon > > > > >and > > > > >> >Ketu > > > > >> >> > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively > on > > 03- > > > 03- > > > > >> >1988 ( > > > > >> >> > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that > Solar > > > > >eclipses > > > > >> >> > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was > > > more > > > > >then > > > > >> >> > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was > at > > > > >79.04 > > > > >> >deg. > > > > >> >> > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon > > were > > > at > > > > >> >76.49 > > > > >> >> > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 > (Rahu > > > was > > > > >15.14 > > > > >> >> > deg. away). > > > > >> >> > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, > you > > > will > > > > >also > > > > >> >> > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse > > > occurred > > > > >at > > > > >> >the > > > > >> >> > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though > > it > > > was > > > > >not > > > > >> >> > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the > > basis > > > of > > > > >> >myth). > > > > >> >> > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar > eclipse, > > > when > > > > >Moon > > > > >> >> > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be > > > there. > > > > >But > > > > >> >As > > > > >> >> > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12- > 11- > > > 1985 > > > > >> >and 3- > > > > >> >> > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there > were > > > full > > > > >> >solar > > > > >> >> > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 > > degree > > > > >> >> > respectively. You will agree that when there were full > > > solar > > > > >> >eclipses > > > > >> >> > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 > > and > > > 166 > > > > >> >degree > > > > >> >> > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may > > > > >possible. > > > > >> >> > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in > > > > >almanac. > > > > >> >Thus > > > > >> >> > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees > > > > >respectively. > > > > >> >All > > > > >> >> > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this > > > > >fundamental > > > > >> >> > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If > you > > > want > > > > >> >then I > > > > >> >> > can give many more examples and very simple method of > > > > >detecting > > > > >> >them. > > > > >> >> > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a > > > science > > > > >but > > > > >> >in > > > > >> >> > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of > > > astronomy + > > > > >> >> > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, > > > psychology > > > > >> >> > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive > > age) > > > > >> >played an > > > > >> >> > important role in handling a person by the astrologer > due > > > to > > > > >> >immense > > > > >> >> > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive > > astrology > > > > >> >appears to > > > > >> >> > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You > will > > > also > > > > >> >agree > > > > >> >> > with the above observation after going through my > original > > > > >> >> > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre- > > > decided > > > > >as > > > > >> >was > > > > >> >> > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we > > may > > > try > > > > >to > > > > >> >do > > > > >> >> > some thing, because every thing will take place > according > > > to > > > > >pre- > > > > >> >> > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of > > > modifying > > > > >that > > > > >> >pre- > > > > >> >> > written destiny, because if we try to change only our > > fate, > > > > >even > > > > >> >then > > > > >> >> > all attached happening will automatically change > creating > > a > > > > >> >cascading > > > > >> >> > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate > of > > > every > > > > >> >> > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre- written > or > > > say > > > > >pre- > > > > >> >> > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because > > when > > > > >every > > > > >> >Tom, > > > > >> >> > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to > worship, > > > good > > > > >> >deed > > > > >> >> > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain > under > > > > >change. > > > > >> >You > > > > >> >> > will agree that astrology is totally based on > mathematical > > > > >> >> > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed > and > > > can > > > > >> >never > > > > >> >> > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart > > > cannot be > > > > >> >> > altered it means result of calculation or say > prediction > > is > > > > >also > > > > >> >> > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is > ever > > > > >> >prewritten) > > > > >> >> > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. > > > because > > > > >in > > > > >> >> > that case, if you like to say, then future events will > be > > > > >altered > > > > >> >but > > > > >> >> > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked > > prediction > > > > >can be > > > > >> >> > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed > > transit > > > of > > > > >> >> > planets? > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest > > > > >assured > > > > >> >that > > > > >> >> > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. > > Only > > > > >> >astronomy > > > > >> >> > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were > > used > > > > >> >> > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it > > appears > > > > >> >correct. > > > > >> >> > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a > > > myth. > > > > >> >Still if > > > > >> >> > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you > contact > > > The > > > > >James > > > > >> >> > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 > > > prize to > > > > >> >> > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e- > > mail > > > and > > > > >> >> > website is jref@ <jref%40randi.org> and > > > > >> >http://www.randi.orgBecause modern > > > > >> >> > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are > being > > > used > > > > >to > > > > >> >> > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested > > > > >business > > > > >> >> > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight > > > this > > > > >sort > > > > >> >of > > > > >> >> > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in > > this > > > > >regard > > > > >> >> > and readers of the book are fully convinced that > astrology > > > > >> >> > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to > > > formulate > > > > >> >> > principles was neither logical nor based on correct > > > > >information of > > > > >> >> > Universe, solar system. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and > > > facts, > > > > >data > > > > >> >> > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward > to > > > join > > > > >> >hands > > > > >> >> > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). > > > > >> >> > Sanat Kumar Jain > > > > >> >> > Think differently, Think logically and Think > > scientifically > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> >--- > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2008 Report Share Posted August 3, 2008 Dear Sanat, While I read the mails on this forum occasionally, I donot find it interesting enough to participate. This is for the simple reason that you and Mr Kaul seem to be obsessed with a hatred for Vedic Astrology and therefore not prepared to accept any point in its favour. Your sole aim seems to denigrade this knowledge as forcefully and unabashedly as you can. Ir is far from an open discussion that I initially thought it would be. However, I donot blame you or Mr Kaul since these are ones perceptions and quite often one doesn't like to change these. I hold on to Vedic Astrology because when I studied it as a knowledge, I did find a pattern in its readings of human behaviour and predictive astrology and once it does so, it comes into the realm of analytics, predictive modelling, inductive knowledge and mathematical relationships. That it is not developed to the extent of a fool proof accuracy as yet, is something every astrologist is striving to find out. Now if we ignore this fact and try to find small and extraneous points like whether it is a science or not, or argue on its being Vedic or not, or narrate individual experiences etc., these are all pointless discussions and waste of time.Let us call it by any name and accept it as a precious heritage. There is both faith and knowledge quest involved in it. As I said before, there is no point in looking for a " scientific " proof of VA, since it came much earlier to the so called science that we know of. And then we donot try to prove certain established facts like the existence of God or the sayings in Vedas etc. This is all knowledge which came to us from our learned ancestors and which cannot be measured by the modern day scientific thought. On the contrary science will one day confirm the teaachings in these scriptures when it develops holistically.. I therefore would like you to hold on to your views while I do to mine. I spend my time fruitfully on two other VA sites that discuss findings from different charts which is useful both to the person who seeks help and also to astrologists who aspire to increase their knowledge. There is nothing so comforting than a message from one who confirms the findings and is ever grateful for the help that is given without any money or ego. And that is the inspiration that keeps this knowledge eternal. Regards, P.N.Razdan , " sanat2221 " <sanatkumar_jain wrote: > > Resp Kaul ji, > Namaskar, > Thanks for your encouraging msg. on my reply to Mr. Ron. Let us see, > what he and other members of the forum specially Sh. Razdan Ji, > Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji want to say, who are silent > since long. > > You may have observed that I am time and again reminding members of > our forum to come forward for sharing their views, but unfortunately > they like to live in tunnel of faith without any fresh air of logical > approach. As I have already spent +35 years on astrology hence I want > to share my views. I am open to all and ready to discuss any point to > any length, to find some truth. Since last 5 years (after publication > of my hindi book), I have discussed with many astrologers but none of > them is able to answer basic and logical questions and privately > admit that they also experienced many failures but due to business > considerations and respect which they get from their clients, they > are not willing to oppose astrology though they are convinced with > the content my book that foundation is based on primitive knowledge. > But what we can do except either to learn something from the > interaction or inform about the hollow astrological principals. > > I find that you are member of many forums hence I will like to > request you that if some astrologers are interested in interaction > then please invite him in our forum for open and uncensored > interaction on predictive astrology. I find that many forums are only > busy in promoting their business and do not want any sincere analysis. > > Thanks > > Yours truly, > Sanat > > PS : Now each and every astrological book, magazine and astrologers > are explaining (or befooling) that Rahu and Ketu are intersection > point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though this was not the concept > of our sages). Today on 1-8-8, there is total solar eclipse when Sun > and Moon may be at +105 degree but Ketu is at 115 degree. Now > everybody knows that at the time of total solar eclipse Moon is going > to intersect the orbit of the Sun and during intersection Sun happens > to be on the point of intersection hence we can see total solar > eclipse. Now my question to the members of the forum is that what > Ketu (which is intersection point of orbits) is doing at 115 degree, > whereas it must be at 105 degree the location where Sun and Moon are > transiting. Thus can't member realize that position of these shadow > planets in the horoscopes is wrong. (other such examples are also > given in my blog `Astrology a science or myth') > Hope to have some answer for further discussion. Members may discuss > personally to other astrologers or consult in other forums if they do > not have any answer. > sanat > > > > > , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > Dear Jain Sahib, > > Excellent analysis! > > Congratulations for dissecting such a terse subject as " astrology " -- > - > > about which literally trillions of volumes have been written---in > > such a simple yet pithy manner! > > Regards, > > AKK > > , " sanat2221 " > > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > Resp Ron, > > > Thanks for your comments. > > > At least thanks for admitting that Hindu (vedic) and western and > KP > > > systems are not working correctly. Hence you have left them and > > > adopted a new Khullar system. > > > > > > Khullar system is a mixture of Hindu and KP system; whereas KP > > system > > > is a mixture of Hindu and Western system. So indirectly Khullar > > > system has adopted a way of old wine in new bottle. I have also > > tried > > > to fuse these both systems in many ways and result of fusion may > be > > > seen in `Eskain horoscope' in file section. But again like head > and > > > tail of a coin, some prediction may right randomly but same > > > combination is not working in another horoscope. It will take > some > > > more time to you to realize that this system is also not working. > > > Because basic building block of this system too, like all others, > > is > > > based on sign, sign lord, cusp (which is a reverse copy of > > > Vinshottary dasha " ), friendship, exalted etc. Until unless these > > > building blocks of predictive astrology may have some scientific > or > > > logical theory behind them till then how you can say that some > > thing > > > can be predicted. Because only that event can be predicted which > is > > > predestined and take your time to realize / think that even if a > > > single event of future of any one life is fixed then whole > sequence > > > of event of the life may automatically be fixed. This in turn may > > fix > > > the sequence of event of other life. Thus whole set up will be > > fixed. > > > Then where is the use of knowing the future or where is the scope > > of > > > amending any unpleasant event. > > > > > > You have mentioned an event of > > > >>>>>>> one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw > that > > > she > > > was likely to die the following day even though she had no known > > > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long > > > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared > > > fine, but the following day she died as indicated.<<<<<<<<<<. In > > this > > > connection I will like to say that every predictive system either > > it > > > may be astrology or KP system, Western system, Magi system, Lal > > > kitab, numerology, Terro card, palmistry, Nadi shastra, face > > > reading, signature reading, Vaastu, and so on have so many > stories > > to > > > tell but none of them is correct and all of them are > > psychologically > > > correct or randomly correct. Thus there is no logic in believing > > any > > > random forecast to amend our plan, decision in any respect. etc. > If > > > above story of death of mother is right in your opinion then the > > > combination in horoscope by which death may be known would have > > been > > > published in scientific journal and Khullar himself would have > been > > > appointed as chief boss of all Insurance companies to see as to > > > whether life insurance of a person may be done or not. Thus you > can > > > see that only a single forecast based on combination of planets > may > > > lead to flow of money then what would happen if a system > (khullar) > > > would have been correct in many respect ie. It may tell about > job, > > > promotion, illness, health and so on. You may please intimate the > > > planetary cuspal combination of the horoscope by which death was > > > decoded for the benefit of the members of the forum, who may take > > > benefit of such a combination and get insured. Do not take it > > > otherwise, I am seriously requesting you and if you don't have > that > > > combination then you may intimate some other combination, or you > > may > > > check yourself the viability of the system and get rid off. > > > > > > Our basic question is still pending that so long any one is not > > able > > > to know that how basic building block of predictive astrology > (sign > > > lord etc. ) were formulated and whether procedure adopted has > some > > > scientific or logical approach till then we all are bound to fall > > in > > > one or another trap. I am saying so that I find (not to say after > > how > > > much labour) that all predictive principles were formulated on > > > primitive myth, knowledge, tradition etc. and thus these > principles > > > have no logical or scientific support in view of modern > knowledge. > > If > > > Hindu (so called vedic) astrology would have been correct then > > what > > > was the need to modify it as western and in turn as KP system > and > > in > > > turn as Khullar system and what was the need to create so many > > other > > > systems like palmistry etc. It is not for improving an existing > > > system, otherwise all previous systems would have been buried and > > > some new correct system would have been survived and in turn > every > > > one would have been realized as to how our ole astrologer were > > wrong. > > > But you can see that every system is going on, because every > system > > > has some business and followers. But you are right that after > > > realizing some mistake you have jumped to some new system and it > is > > > correct way of analyzing a system, because you may not be a > > > practitioner astrologer. Otherwise you may have stick to any one > > > system and anyhow support that system like many astrologers. > > > > > > Thus you were initially right when you think : > > > >>>>>>> Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful > > about > > > the > > > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system. > > > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions, > > > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully > > > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any > > > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct > > > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led > > > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting > > > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the > > > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me > > > eager see why they were successful.<<<< > > > and now no need to go for blind chart, you may check and announce > > > when Osama will die or likewise some other definite prediction > > about > > > any one in the world and continue to serve many Govt. > > > > > > Hope to receive some tested principles of khullar for definite > > > prediction, which may not have some psychological mixture for the > > > larger benefit of the members. > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > Yours truly, > > > Sanat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rongaunt@ au " > > > <rongaunt@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Sanat, > > > > > > > > I respond to the extracted part of your message where you say: > > > > > > > > 'So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must > > > > find out the procedure as to how all basic principles were > > > > formulated and is their any scientific logic (in view of modern > > > > knowledge) or not.' > > > > > > > > Now this is a most scientific approach you have taken!! You > have > > > > obviously already taken the stance that Mr Khullar's work is > > > > bogus or you would not say 'falling into another trap by > > > > Khullar'. > > > > > > > > I have serious doubts that you have studied his work at all, > > > > never mind being intimately aquatinted with it. So your > > > > unfounded prejudice for a scientific observer is obvious for all > > > > to see, and is clearly hypocritical if you have not studied the > > > > subject. I think most would agree your approach here at least > is > > > > MOST UNSCIENTIFIC. > > > > > > > > For your information the Khullar system is by far the most > > > > scientific of all astrology I have come across. Mr Khullar > > > > examined in detail both Western and Hindu astrology. He took > > > > much from the traditions of the Hindus, and from Nadi astrology. > > > > He went right to the source of their ideas and worked out > > > > exactly why they were quoting certain important slokas. He > > > > then incorporated these ideas into a major advancement on the KP > > > > system using cuspal interlinks. > > > > > > > > I personally gave up believing authors have all (or even) some > of > > > > the answers all of the time, so I thoroughly check everything > > > > stated. If I find a system not working as stated even once I > > > > start having reservations. When I see it doesn't work quite a > > > > few times I discard it. I have not been able to do this with > > > > the Khullar system because it does work. > > > > > > > > Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful about the > > > > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system. > > > > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions, > > > > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully > > > > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any > > > > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct > > > > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led > > > > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting > > > > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the > > > > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me > > > > eager see why they were successful. > > > > > > > > I think any experienced astrologer would agree that even if you > > > > ask a number of astrologers - all following the same system - > > > > to assess or predict for an event they will invariably all come > > > > up with a different answer. > > > > > > > > This does not happen in KCIL because all charts are rectified by > > > > strict criteria, and invariably all students come up with the > > > > same rectified chart. They all assess the event to get the > > > > same answer because the cuspal interlinks are specific to the > > > > chart and the rules are clearly laid down. This is extremely > > > > scientific astrology. > > > > > > > > Apart from success in Blind Charts there has been extremely good > > > > predictions ie births to the day and a narrow time frame. Also > > > > one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw that she > > > > was likely to die the following day even though she had no known > > > > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long > > > > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared > > > > fine, but the following day she died as indicated. How many > > > > astrologers using other systems would be sufficiently confident > > > > to do this? > > > > > > > > We have seen other things which validate the system, such as > > > > Mr Khullar declaring that a certain person could not have been > > > > born in a certain part of city because the events of the life > and > > > > family connections did not line up in regard to the relevant > > > > house cusps. He then stated where the person was likely to > have > > > > been born. Checking with the native the position chosen was > > > > almost spot on. There are many other reasons that indicate > > > > that the system does work. > > > > > > > > So Sanat, first study this system in detail then pronounce on > > > > it, that is the truly scientific way. Your opinion may then > > > > carry some weight but until then it is difficult for anyone to > > > > take your opinions (at least on this matter) seriously. > > > > > > > > > > > > Ron Gaunt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:13:14 -0000, you wrote: > > > > > > > > >Dear Ron, > > > > >Welcome in the forum for your first msg. > > > > >You have good knowledge of astrology, still you are not > > convinced > > > > >with any system and advocating an another Khullar system. I am > > > > >reproducing your stand > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>Again most do not realise that it is possible to see > > > anything > > > > >and everything you want to see after the event with ANY and > > EVERY > > > > >system, due to the enormous number of permutations. > > > > >I think I have looked at just about every astrological system > > and > > > > >method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, and > > > others > > > > >do not give consistently good results. <<<<<<<<<<< > > > > > > > > > >against you. Because it makes no difference as to whether we > are > > > > >linking any past event with some principles or we are linking > > > future > > > > >prediction with our psychology. If I will say your next month > is > > > not > > > > >good and you have faith on predictive astrology, then every > > > > >psychological odd in next month will be linked with this > > > prediction > > > > >and in sub-conscious mind you may bent upon to think that > > > astrology > > > > >is correct. So it has no relevancy at all. > > > > > > > > > >We in India are being befooled and cheated by astrologers > since > > > 2000 > > > > >years without knowing that sign was devised by Greeks and > > adopted > > > by > > > > >us without any religious support. Because mass population > always > > > > >remains uneducated and educated lot are being lured by crowd > of > > > heads > > > > >on shoulders (without knowing that their heads are empty in > this > > > > >respect) who follows some traditions. Cunning or ignorant > > > astrologers > > > > >after reading some latest books on astrology, full with praise > > of > > > > >sages and latest data of solar system thinks (and propagate) > > that > > > our > > > > >sages were well known with modern data. Thus they are able to > > > befool > > > > >ignorant public in the name of Ved, Sage, Myth and so on with > > the > > > > >help of Media and publicity. > > > > > > > > > >Bare fact is this that our sages were very logical and open to > > all > > > > >sort of logical knowledge (which can not be questioned). They > > were > > > > >very clear when they appreciate the knowledge of Greeks > because > > > they > > > > >were of the opinion " tamso ma jyotirgamay " means we must go > > ahead > > > > >towards knowledge from ignorance. For the purpose of knowledge > > > they > > > > >were following " Vasudevam kutumbkam " means whole world is a > > > family. > > > > >Thus they adopted sign system and other knowledge from Greeks > > and > > > > >mixed it with our constellational system and religious concept > > of > > > > >formation of universe. Thus our sages formulated basic > > principles > > > > >like sign lord, aspect, friendship, exalted, dasha and so on > > > (refer > > > > >my book in Hindi or in English for detailed procedure etc.), > by > > > which > > > > >they were able to forecast some thing which happens to be true > > > > >(psychologically, and this phenomena was not known till 18th > > > > >century). Thus Greeks then Romans adopted these principles and > > > > >subsequently slightly modified (aspect) as Western system, > > whereas > > > > >sign lord etc are same. As we Indians are not aware that > concept > > > of > > > > >sign belongs to Greek / Babylonia likewise Western countries > are > > > not > > > > >aware that sign lord etc. principles were formulated by our > > sages > > > on > > > > >the basis of religious myth that Earth is stationary, Sun is > > > nearer > > > > >then Moon, all constellation are just above Moon and so on. In > > > this > > > > >way where we Indians are being befooled in the name of Ved, > > sages; > > > > >likewise western countries were being befooled that predictive > > > > >principals were formulated by Ptolemy and now everyone is > after > > > > >socalled " Vedic astrology " without knowing that there is no > > > > >predictive astrology in Ved. Thus predictive astrology is > merely > > a > > > > >psychological game like magic. We must enjoy this game but > must > > > not > > > > >be lured like a fool who may be lured by creation of currency > > > notes > > > > >from a box by a magician and left his job in the hope to > create > > > note > > > > >from that box. > > > > > > > > > >So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must > > find > > > > >out the procedure as to how all basic principles were > formulated > > > and > > > > >is their any scientific logic (in view of modern knowledge) or > > > not. > > > > > > > > > >Some points were discussed in brief (refer SOA_______ files in > > > file > > > > >section) because followers of astrology, could not stand after > > > > >raising very simple arguments and further discussion could not > > be > > > > >done. I hope that after +35 years of experience you may like > to > > > > >discuss on any point. > > > > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > >Yours truly, > > > > >Sanat > > > > > > > > > >PS: Sh. Razdan Ji, Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji may > > please > > > > >come forward with reply on my comments. Silence is not a > > solution. > > > > >Silently reading is also not a solution. When we are in a > forum > > > then > > > > >either we must educate other members or may improve our > > knowledge. > > > > >Remaining " as it is " is not a good sign. For improvement we > must > > > have > > > > >inquisitive mind. I am ready to learn from expert astrologers > > but > > > not > > > > >as blind supporter. If Astrology is science then it must cross > > all > > > > >questions and must have logical answers to all sort of doubt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rongaunt@ au " > > > > ><rongaunt@> wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Friends, > > > > >> > > > > >> I am new to the forum, but have a fair knowledge of > astrology > > as > > > > >> it has been my hobby for over 35 years. I am all for > > > > >> questioning the validity of the subject, as I suspect that > many > > > > >> many astrologers, are very gullible because they have not > > > > >> studied deeply enough to realise that the permutations in > > > > >> astrology run into the millions. Again most do not realise > > that > > > > >> it is possible to see anything and everything you want to see > > > > >> after the event with ANY and EVERY system, due to the > enormous > > > > >> number of permutations. And f course, very few if any, go > on > > to > > > > >> achieve good predictions. > > > > >> > > > > >> I think I have looked at just about every astrological > system > > and > > > > >> method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, > and > > > > >> others do not give consistently good results. It has been > my > > aim > > > > >> to find one that does work, and to this end I started > possibly > > > > >> the first of the regulat Blind Charts tests on the Web many > > years > > > > >> ago. I hoped to find a system that really did work. It is > > > > >> only in the last year or so that I have found such a system, > > > > >> which drew my attention because the students of a particular > > > > >> astrological institution kept getting correct results in our > > > > >> Blind Chart tests. The system is the Khullar method of > > Cuspal > > > > >> Interlinks. > > > > >> > > > > >> Anyhow my intention in writing this mail was to point out > that > > it > > > > >> is not very practical to furnish personal data and then > predict > > > > >> from it, because the waiting time for the prediction means > > > > >> everyone will lose interest long before the event does or > does > > > > >> not happen. It would be much better to get members to > furnish > > > > >> data, to include some events and family birthdates in order > to > > be > > > > >> able to rectify the chart, and give say four options which > > > > >> participants will check to find out which of these options > > > > >> happened on a given date. This is real life astrology and > is > > > > >> almost as good as future prediction, because you use exactly > > the > > > > >> same methods on an unknown event. > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Ron Gaunt > > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:44:09 -0000, you wrote: > > > > >> > > > > >> >Shri Jagannathan Kapisthalamji, > > > > >> >Namaskar! > > > > >> ><If you can furnish your date of birth,place and time of > > birth > > > let > > > > >us > > > > >> >try some astrological predictions and see whether they > work.?> > > > > >> > > > > > >> >My late maternal grandfather used to make predictions from > > > > >horoscopes > > > > >> >prepared from Grahalaghava panchangas, which were anything > > but > > > > >> >correct, and that was admitted by the Panchanga makers > > > > >themselves! > > > > >> >Quite often his predictions proved correct! > > > > >> > > > > > >> >Does that prove that any predictive gimmicks are either > > > scientific > > > > >or > > > > >> >Vedic? No. That cannot be so, since Grahalaghava was/is > > > neither a > > > > >> >Vedic work nor a scientific one! > > > > >> > > > > > >> >Thus even if some astrologers are able to make some correct > > > > >> >predictions about some one sometimes, that never > means/proves > > > that > > > > >> >those predictions were either on a scientific basis or as > per > > > the > > > > >> >Vedic lore! All that proves is that sometimes some guess > > works > > > do > > > > >> >prove correct and that is why more often than not, correct > > > > >preictions > > > > >> >are made only from incorrect data, whether birth > particulars > > or > > > > >> >astronomical data, since Lahiri Ayanamsha in itself is the > > most > > > > >> >monstrous ayanamsha that could ever have been invented by > any > > > > >> >charlatan!! And it is on the basis of only that ayanamsha > > that > > > > >ninety- > > > > >> >nine per cent predictions are made these days! > > > > >> >With regards, > > > > >> >A K Kaul > > > > >> > > > > > >> > , " Jagannathan > > > > >Kapisthalam " > > > > >> ><jagannathankr@> wrote: > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> Dear Sir, > > > > >> >> Your article is quite interesting.If you can furnish your > > > date of > > > > >> >> birth,place and time of birth let us try some > astrological > > > > >> >predictions and > > > > >> >> see whether they work.?This is only out of academic > > interest. > > > > >> >> Regards, > > > > >> >> jagannathan. > > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > Resp. members, > > > > >> >> > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of > > > discussion > > > > >on > > > > >> >> > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am > > enclosing > > > my > > > > >old > > > > >> >> > blog placed in the file section so that members may > read > > it > > > and > > > > >> >> > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not > > > reacting > > > > >> >with a > > > > >> >> > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though > > they > > > are > > > > >> >> > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can > > > interact > > > > >on > > > > >> >my > > > > >> >> > email sanatkumar_jain@ <sanatkumar_jain% > 40rediffmail.com> > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > So far members have observed that supporters of > astrology > > > are > > > > >> >either > > > > >> >> > interested in by passing the main point or they have > only > > > > >faith on > > > > >> >> > astrology without any scientific or logical support to > > any > > > > >> >concept. > > > > >> >> > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others > > to > > > > >follow > > > > >> >the > > > > >> >> > path of ignorance. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am > > always > > > > >> >interested > > > > >> >> > in looking deep. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > Thanks > > > > >> >> > Sanat > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > > > >> >> > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking > to > > > some > > > > >> >> > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not > > > studied > > > > >in > > > > >> >depth > > > > >> >> > but you only have faith, because you have been informed > > > like > > > > >> >this. So > > > > >> >> > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself > as > > to > > > > >> >whether > > > > >> >> > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of > > > science > > > > >due > > > > >> >to > > > > >> >> > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the > > sentiments > > > of > > > > >> >> > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I > > only > > > > >want to > > > > >> >> > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then > let > > > us > > > > >> >examine > > > > >> >> > it and then there will be no question of hurting, > because > > > you > > > > >have > > > > >> >> > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you > are > > > > >standing > > > > >> >in > > > > >> >> > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which > has > > > been > > > > >> >> > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that > astrology > > > is a > > > > >> >> > science without knowing the story of other side. I can > > > > >understand > > > > >> >the > > > > >> >> > problem of astrologer that they will loose their > business > > > but > > > > >if > > > > >> >you > > > > >> >> > are a client then you must have right to know the truth > > or > > > > >call an > > > > >> >> > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > At the time of formulating the astrological principles > in > > > early > > > > >> >> > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living > being > > > has > > > > >> >> > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. > > This > > > > >> >religious > > > > >> >> > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet > > > (Sun, > > > > >> >Moon, > > > > >> >> > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those > days > > > only > > > > >> >sages > > > > >> >> > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus > > > after > > > > >> >> > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the > skill > > > to > > > > >> >predict > > > > >> >> > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so- > > called > > > > >> >grabbing > > > > >> >> > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and > > Ketu. > > > > >> >> > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse > and > > its > > > > >> >> > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer > > > > >donations > > > > >> >etc. > > > > >> >> > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, > > which > > > is > > > > >> >still > > > > >> >> > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate > > of > > > > >> >everybody > > > > >> >> > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this > > > > >situation, > > > > >> >it > > > > >> >> > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict > > the > > > > >fate > > > > >> >of > > > > >> >> > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not > predict > > > the > > > > >> >fate of > > > > >> >> > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate > > > various > > > > >> >> > astrological principles on the basis of the then > > knowledge > > > of > > > > >> >sages > > > > >> >> > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. > > These > > > > >> >principles > > > > >> >> > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was > never > > > > >> >percolated > > > > >> >> > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard > barrier > > to > > > > >learn > > > > >> >> > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these > > > principles > > > > >were > > > > >> >> > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as > > > Western > > > > >> >system. > > > > >> >> > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. > One > > > group > > > > >> >> > belongs to astrologers who always try to support > > astrology > > > due > > > > >to > > > > >> >> > their business considerations (these astrologers always > > try > > > to > > > > >fit > > > > >> >> > past event very precisely within some astrological > > > principle > > > > >> >within a > > > > >> >> > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and > > > faith > > > > >etc., > > > > >> >> > but they are unable to predict any future event. > Because > > > > >> >astrological > > > > >> >> > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too > > > diabolical > > > > >> >> > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in > > > fluke) > > > > >may > > > > >> >come > > > > >> >> > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and > > > start > > > > >self > > > > >> >> > praising instead of applying the same socalled > principle > > on > > > > >other > > > > >> >> > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can > only > > > > >mislead, > > > > >> >> > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You > > can > > > > >find > > > > >> >that > > > > >> >> > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other > > group > > > (say > > > > >> >> > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against > > > > >astrology. > > > > >> >But > > > > >> >> > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what > > was > > > the > > > > >> >level > > > > >> >> > of information of sages about the Universe, who > developed > > > > >> >> > astrological principles in primitive age and what > > procedure > > > was > > > > >> >> > adopted to formulate various principles relating to > > > Lordship, > > > > >> >> > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, > > Vinshottary > > > > >> >> > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles > > then > > > > >> >following > > > > >> >> > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given > in > > > > >> >subpara). > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs > among > > > seven > > > > >> >> > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the > > > > >stationary > > > > >> >> > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is > > enmity > > > and > > > > >> >> > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are > > > enemy > > > > >of > > > > >> >each > > > > >> >> > other) ? > > > > >> >> > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and > > > demons > > > > >over > > > > >> >> > nector after sea-churning……….. > > > > >> >> > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect > > > (full, > > > > >> >quarter > > > > >> >> > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full > aspect > > on > > > > >> >seventh > > > > >> >> > house) ? > > > > >> >> > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are > > > > >exalted > > > > >> >and > > > > >> >> > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 > deg. > > of > > > > >Aries > > > > >> >> > sign) ? > > > > >> >> > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when > > duration > > > of > > > > >the > > > > >> >> > day is more in comparison to night…… > > > > >> >> > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most > powerful > > > and > > > > >hub > > > > >> >of > > > > >> >> > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha > > whereas > > > > >Venus > > > > >> >(a > > > > >> >> > small planet) has 20 years ? > > > > >> >> > Based on two triangles derived after working out the > > effect > > > of > > > > >> >> > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > > > >> >> > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various > > > constellations > > > > >> >between > > > > >> >> > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures………. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of > a > > > week > > > > >> >> > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > > > >> >> > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in > the > > > > >> >structure > > > > >> >> > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away….. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde > > > motion > > > > >of > > > > >> >> > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > > > >> >> > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu > > are > > > 180 > > > > >> >deg. > > > > >> >> > apart? > > > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > > > >> >> > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of > > eclipse ? > > > > >> >> > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation > month………. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final > > question > > > as > > > > >to > > > > >> >> > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some > one > > > gave > > > > >> >> > answers to these questions then he will realize that > > entire > > > > >> >> > astrological principles are totally based on wrong > > concept > > > of > > > > >> >> > Universe. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the > > then > > > > >> >> > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was > developed > > by > > > > >sage > > > > >> >> > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth > is > > in > > > the > > > > >> >> > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also > > believed > > > in > > > > >all > > > > >> >> > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may > > read > > > any > > > > >old > > > > >> >> > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas > > Moon > > > is > > > > >> >beyond > > > > >> >> > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury > > and > > > > >Moon. > > > > >> >> > You may be surprised to know that all astrological > > > principles > > > > >are > > > > >> >> > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self > > studying > > > > >> >astrology > > > > >> >> > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude > > > correct > > > > >> >> > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same > > > > >combination is > > > > >> >> > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh > > > logically > > > > >and > > > > >> >> > systematically over this subject and I find that > > Primitive > > > > >concept > > > > >> >> > (when astrology was developed) requires full > overhauling > > in > > > > >view > > > > >> >of > > > > >> >> > modern scientific astronomy, according to which > primitive > > > > >concept > > > > >> >of > > > > >> >> > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > > > >> >> > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > > > > >> >astrology " Jyotish - > > > > >> >> > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This book > > > > >contains > > > > >> >the > > > > >> >> > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these > principles > > on > > > > >the > > > > >> >basis > > > > >> >> > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads > our > > > > >sages to > > > > >> >> > formulate these principles. This book was also > published > > in > > > > >> >English > > > > >> >> > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 > pages). > > > The > > > > >> >book is > > > > >> >> > being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > > > >> >> > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > > > > >> >produktID=1759836 > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp? > > AUB=sanat% > > > > >> >20kumar% > > > > >> >> > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > > > >> >> > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, > > > Neptune > > > > >nor > > > > >> >they > > > > >> >> > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due > to > > > > >presence > > > > >> >of > > > > >> >> > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have > developed > > > the > > > > >> >concept > > > > >> >> > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It > was > > > > >> >mentioned in > > > > >> >> > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu > came > > > > >within 14 > > > > >> >> > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full > > Moon). > > > But > > > > >> >nobody > > > > >> >> > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar > > eclipse > > > > >when > > > > >> >Sun, > > > > >> >> > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree > > > > >respectively > > > > >> >on > > > > >> >> > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, > > Moon > > > > >and > > > > >> >Ketu > > > > >> >> > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively > on > > 03- > > > 03- > > > > >> >1988 ( > > > > >> >> > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that > Solar > > > > >eclipses > > > > >> >> > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was > > > more > > > > >then > > > > >> >> > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was > at > > > > >79.04 > > > > >> >deg. > > > > >> >> > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon > > were > > > at > > > > >> >76.49 > > > > >> >> > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 > (Rahu > > > was > > > > >15.14 > > > > >> >> > deg. away). > > > > >> >> > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, > you > > > will > > > > >also > > > > >> >> > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse > > > occurred > > > > >at > > > > >> >the > > > > >> >> > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though > > it > > > was > > > > >not > > > > >> >> > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the > > basis > > > of > > > > >> >myth). > > > > >> >> > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar > eclipse, > > > when > > > > >Moon > > > > >> >> > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be > > > there. > > > > >But > > > > >> >As > > > > >> >> > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12- > 11- > > > 1985 > > > > >> >and 3- > > > > >> >> > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there > were > > > full > > > > >> >solar > > > > >> >> > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 > > degree > > > > >> >> > respectively. You will agree that when there were full > > > solar > > > > >> >eclipses > > > > >> >> > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 > > and > > > 166 > > > > >> >degree > > > > >> >> > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may > > > > >possible. > > > > >> >> > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in > > > > >almanac. > > > > >> >Thus > > > > >> >> > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees > > > > >respectively. > > > > >> >All > > > > >> >> > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this > > > > >fundamental > > > > >> >> > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If > you > > > want > > > > >> >then I > > > > >> >> > can give many more examples and very simple method of > > > > >detecting > > > > >> >them. > > > > >> >> > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a > > > science > > > > >but > > > > >> >in > > > > >> >> > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of > > > astronomy + > > > > >> >> > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, > > > psychology > > > > >> >> > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive > > age) > > > > >> >played an > > > > >> >> > important role in handling a person by the astrologer > due > > > to > > > > >> >immense > > > > >> >> > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive > > astrology > > > > >> >appears to > > > > >> >> > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You > will > > > also > > > > >> >agree > > > > >> >> > with the above observation after going through my > original > > > > >> >> > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre- > > > decided > > > > >as > > > > >> >was > > > > >> >> > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we > > may > > > try > > > > >to > > > > >> >do > > > > >> >> > some thing, because every thing will take place > according > > > to > > > > >pre- > > > > >> >> > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of > > > modifying > > > > >that > > > > >> >pre- > > > > >> >> > written destiny, because if we try to change only our > > fate, > > > > >even > > > > >> >then > > > > >> >> > all attached happening will automatically change > creating > > a > > > > >> >cascading > > > > >> >> > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate > of > > > every > > > > >> >> > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre- written > or > > > say > > > > >pre- > > > > >> >> > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because > > when > > > > >every > > > > >> >Tom, > > > > >> >> > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to > worship, > > > good > > > > >> >deed > > > > >> >> > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain > under > > > > >change. > > > > >> >You > > > > >> >> > will agree that astrology is totally based on > mathematical > > > > >> >> > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed > and > > > can > > > > >> >never > > > > >> >> > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart > > > cannot be > > > > >> >> > altered it means result of calculation or say > prediction > > is > > > > >also > > > > >> >> > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is > ever > > > > >> >prewritten) > > > > >> >> > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. > > > because > > > > >in > > > > >> >> > that case, if you like to say, then future events will > be > > > > >altered > > > > >> >but > > > > >> >> > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked > > prediction > > > > >can be > > > > >> >> > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed > > transit > > > of > > > > >> >> > planets? > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest > > > > >assured > > > > >> >that > > > > >> >> > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. > > Only > > > > >> >astronomy > > > > >> >> > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were > > used > > > > >> >> > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it > > appears > > > > >> >correct. > > > > >> >> > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a > > > myth. > > > > >> >Still if > > > > >> >> > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you > contact > > > The > > > > >James > > > > >> >> > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 > > > prize to > > > > >> >> > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e- > > mail > > > and > > > > >> >> > website is jref@ <jref%40randi.org> and > > > > >> >http://www.randi.orgBecause modern > > > > >> >> > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are > being > > > used > > > > >to > > > > >> >> > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested > > > > >business > > > > >> >> > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight > > > this > > > > >sort > > > > >> >of > > > > >> >> > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in > > this > > > > >regard > > > > >> >> > and readers of the book are fully convinced that > astrology > > > > >> >> > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to > > > formulate > > > > >> >> > principles was neither logical nor based on correct > > > > >information of > > > > >> >> > Universe, solar system. > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and > > > facts, > > > > >data > > > > >> >> > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward > to > > > join > > > > >> >hands > > > > >> >> > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). > > > > >> >> > Sanat Kumar Jain > > > > >> >> > Think differently, Think logically and Think > > scientifically > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> >--- > > > > >> > > > > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 3, 2008 Report Share Posted August 3, 2008 Resp Kaul ji, Namaskar, Thanks for explaining the astronomical part of eclipse and position of Rahu / Ketu. But I have raised the question for predictive astrology and position of Rahu / Ketu in Horoscope in view of fabricated (not scientifically but in comparison to views of sages) explanation of the astrologers that they are intersection point of orbits. Such contention was never pronounced by the sages in any scripture, because according to them Rahu / Ketu are demons created after event of samudra-manthan and responsible for eclipse or we may say that Rahu Ketu was created by our sages in view of eclipse. According to them Sun is one lakh yojan (1 yojan = about 14 km) from the Earth and Moon is 2 lakh yojan from the Earth and hovering over the fixed earth. Hence there was no question that their orbit may intersect, as Rahu ketu has their own identity of shadow planet. After the discovery of solar-system by Galileo and acceptance of this concept in last 50 years by the society; astrologer too have taken a swing and started to say that Rahu Ketu are intersection point, without any further digging about its impact on predictive astrology. Thus innocent reader of these books think that astrology is scientific and our sages know these intersection etc. Sages have not supported intersection theory. Astrologers and every astrological book supporting this theory of intersection against the theory of sages. But they have fixed the retrograde motion of Rahu Ketu as 3-11. Now if astrologers have changed their stand and supporting intersection theory then they must also ensure that Rahu / Ketu may be at intersection point at least at the time of full eclipse by modifying their retrograde motion. For example (I am taking following information and analysis (from my book) relating to total eclipse due to Ketu in 1990 which are harmonic of present eclipse ie: earlier by 18 years 10 days;) Total lunar eclipse 10-2-90 - Sun 296 deg., Moon 116 deg. then Ketu must also be at 116 deg. instead of 112 deg. Total solar eclipse 22-7-90 – Sun 95 deg. Moon 95 deg. then Ketu must also be at 95 deg. instead of 104 deg. (you can also compare the data of 20/2/2008 and 1/8/2008 or of any other harmonics.) Thus for the purpose of horoscope Ketu must be at 116 deg.on 10/2/90 and at 95 deg. on 22/7/90. Thus its retrograde motion in 162 days may be 21 deg. (116-95) and its daily retrograde motion may be 7' 46 " instead of as usual 3'11 " . If we analyze the motion of Ketu wrt to total eclipse in 18 years then it's motion may vary between +1'53 " to -8'53 " and likewise motion of Rahu may also vary between -1'41 " to -7'0 " and in turn mutual distance between Rahu and Ketu may also vary between 165 deg to 195 deg. instead of fixed distance of 180 deg. Thus my finding and observation is that position, motion of Rahu / Ketu are not being taken correctly in all horoscope for predictive astrology. As Rahu Ketu are very important ingredient in predictive astrology including yog (including socalled kal sarp) thus their wrong situation must be a question of concern to astrologers (and to general public who is being exploited in the name of demon Rahu Ketu and loosing suffiecient money.) I hope members will now think a fresh on this anomaly and ask astrologers. I am waiting for their comments. Thanks Kaul ji for your response to enable me to further explain the point. Yours truly, Sanat PS : Thanks to Sh. Ghopal ji for showing their interest in latest eclipse, though this position was already included in my old blog " Astrology a science or myth " . But perhaps he (and other members) have not gone through the blog. Waiting for comments. , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " <jyotirved wrote: > > Dear Jain Sahib, > Namaskar! > Let me clarify something about your PS first---Kethu being at 115° > when the moon is at 105°: > > The following few lines are being quoted from " Practical Astronomy > with your calculator " by Peter Duffet-Smith,Cambridge University > Press) page 153---under the heading " The rules of eclipses " and can > be understood even by a layman: > > " Here is a summary of the most important 'rules' which appear to > govern the occurence of eclipses > (a) A lunar eclipse can occur only at full Moon and a solar eclipse > at new Moon. There is not an eclipse every month. > (b) At least two solar eclipses occur every year, and never more than > five. There are a maximum of three lunar eclipses in a year. The > highest total number of eclipses in a year, lunar and solar, is seven. > © Eclipses tend to go in pairs or threes: solar---lunar---solar. A > lunar eclipse is always preceded or followed by a solar eclipse (two > weeks in between them) > (d) The pattern of eclipses tends to recur in cycles of 18 yers 11 > days and 8 hours, the so-called 'Saros cycle'. The pattern is not > repeated exactly. > (e) At the moment of greatest eclipse the Sun and Moon are either in > opposition or conjunction. If the angle between the line of nodes > and the Sun or Moon is greater than 12° 15' a total lunar eclipse is > not possible, while if it is less than 9° 30' a lunar eclipse must > occur. If the angle is more than 18° 31' a solar eclipse canot > happen, while if it is less than 15° 31' a solar eclipse must occur. > (f) In a lunar eclipse, the total phase can last for a maximum time > of 1 hour 40 minutes, and the umbral phase, partial-total-partial, > for a maximum time of 3 hours 40 minutes. The maximum time of total > solar elipse (at the equator) is 7 minutes 40 seconds and an annular > eclipse can last at most for 12 minutes and 24 seconds " > > I hope it clarifies the situation that Kethu can be away from the > Moon by upto 15° 31' (or even 18° 31') during a solar eclipse. > WE MUST NOT FORGET THAT A REAL TOTAL SOLAR ECLIPSE WHICH ENGULFS THE > ENTIRE GLOBE ---AT LEAST THE HALF OF IT----IN DARNKESS IS NEVER > POSSIBLE BEFORE THE " DOOMSDAY " ! However, a total lunar eclipse can > and does happen very often without any " doomsday " , but it > will " engulf " only that portion in darkness where the moon > is " visible " > Regards, > AKK > , " sanat2221 " > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > Resp Kaul ji, > > Namaskar, > > Thanks for your encouraging msg. on my reply to Mr. Ron. Let us > see, > > what he and other members of the forum specially Sh. Razdan Ji, > > Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji want to say, who are silent > > since long. > > > > You may have observed that I am time and again reminding members of > > our forum to come forward for sharing their views, but > unfortunately > > they like to live in tunnel of faith without any fresh air of > logical > > approach. As I have already spent +35 years on astrology hence I > want > > to share my views. I am open to all and ready to discuss any point > to > > any length, to find some truth. Since last 5 years (after > publication > > of my hindi book), I have discussed with many astrologers but none > of > > them is able to answer basic and logical questions and privately > > admit that they also experienced many failures but due to business > > considerations and respect which they get from their clients, they > > are not willing to oppose astrology though they are convinced with > > the content my book that foundation is based on primitive > knowledge. > > But what we can do except either to learn something from the > > interaction or inform about the hollow astrological principals. > > > > I find that you are member of many forums hence I will like to > > request you that if some astrologers are interested in interaction > > then please invite him in our forum for open and uncensored > > interaction on predictive astrology. I find that many forums are > only > > busy in promoting their business and do not want any sincere > analysis. > > > > Thanks > > > > Yours truly, > > Sanat > > > > PS : Now each and every astrological book, magazine and astrologers > > are explaining (or befooling) that Rahu and Ketu are intersection > > point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though this was not the concept > > of our sages). Today on 1-8-8, there is total solar eclipse when > Sun > > and Moon may be at +105 degree but Ketu is at 115 degree. Now > > everybody knows that at the time of total solar eclipse Moon is > going > > to intersect the orbit of the Sun and during intersection Sun > happens > > to be on the point of intersection hence we can see total solar > > eclipse. Now my question to the members of the forum is that what > > Ketu (which is intersection point of orbits) is doing at 115 > degree, > > whereas it must be at 105 degree the location where Sun and Moon > are > > transiting. Thus can't member realize that position of these shadow > > planets in the horoscopes is wrong. (other such examples are also > > given in my blog `Astrology a science or myth') > > Hope to have some answer for further discussion. Members may > discuss > > personally to other astrologers or consult in other forums if they > do > > not have any answer. > > sanat > > > > > > > > > > , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Jain Sahib, > > > Excellent analysis! > > > Congratulations for dissecting such a terse subject > as " astrology " -- > > - > > > about which literally trillions of volumes have been written--- in > > > such a simple yet pithy manner! > > > Regards, > > > AKK > > > , " sanat2221 " > > > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Resp Ron, > > > > Thanks for your comments. > > > > At least thanks for admitting that Hindu (vedic) and western > and > > KP > > > > systems are not working correctly. Hence you have left them and > > > > adopted a new Khullar system. > > > > > > > > Khullar system is a mixture of Hindu and KP system; whereas KP > > > system > > > > is a mixture of Hindu and Western system. So indirectly Khullar > > > > system has adopted a way of old wine in new bottle. I have also > > > tried > > > > to fuse these both systems in many ways and result of fusion > may > > be > > > > seen in `Eskain horoscope' in file section. But again like head > > and > > > > tail of a coin, some prediction may right randomly but same > > > > combination is not working in another horoscope. It will take > > some > > > > more time to you to realize that this system is also not > working. > > > > Because basic building block of this system too, like all > others, > > > is > > > > based on sign, sign lord, cusp (which is a reverse copy of > > > > Vinshottary dasha " ), friendship, exalted etc. Until unless > these > > > > building blocks of predictive astrology may have some > scientific > > or > > > > logical theory behind them till then how you can say that some > > > thing > > > > can be predicted. Because only that event can be predicted > which > > is > > > > predestined and take your time to realize / think that even if > a > > > > single event of future of any one life is fixed then whole > > sequence > > > > of event of the life may automatically be fixed. This in turn > may > > > fix > > > > the sequence of event of other life. Thus whole set up will be > > > fixed. > > > > Then where is the use of knowing the future or where is the > scope > > > of > > > > amending any unpleasant event. > > > > > > > > You have mentioned an event of > > > > >>>>>>> one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw > > that > > > > she > > > > was likely to die the following day even though she had no known > > > > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long > > > > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared > > > > fine, but the following day she died as indicated.<<<<<<<<<<. > In > > > this > > > > connection I will like to say that every predictive system > either > > > it > > > > may be astrology or KP system, Western system, Magi system, Lal > > > > kitab, numerology, Terro card, palmistry, Nadi shastra, face > > > > reading, signature reading, Vaastu, and so on have so many > > stories > > > to > > > > tell but none of them is correct and all of them are > > > psychologically > > > > correct or randomly correct. Thus there is no logic in > believing > > > any > > > > random forecast to amend our plan, decision in any respect. > etc. > > If > > > > above story of death of mother is right in your opinion then > the > > > > combination in horoscope by which death may be known would have > > > been > > > > published in scientific journal and Khullar himself would have > > been > > > > appointed as chief boss of all Insurance companies to see as to > > > > whether life insurance of a person may be done or not. Thus you > > can > > > > see that only a single forecast based on combination of planets > > may > > > > lead to flow of money then what would happen if a system > > (khullar) > > > > would have been correct in many respect ie. It may tell about > > job, > > > > promotion, illness, health and so on. You may please intimate > the > > > > planetary cuspal combination of the horoscope by which death > was > > > > decoded for the benefit of the members of the forum, who may > take > > > > benefit of such a combination and get insured. Do not take it > > > > otherwise, I am seriously requesting you and if you don't have > > that > > > > combination then you may intimate some other combination, or > you > > > may > > > > check yourself the viability of the system and get rid off. > > > > > > > > Our basic question is still pending that so long any one is not > > > able > > > > to know that how basic building block of predictive astrology > > (sign > > > > lord etc. ) were formulated and whether procedure adopted has > > some > > > > scientific or logical approach till then we all are bound to > fall > > > in > > > > one or another trap. I am saying so that I find (not to say > after > > > how > > > > much labour) that all predictive principles were formulated on > > > > primitive myth, knowledge, tradition etc. and thus these > > principles > > > > have no logical or scientific support in view of modern > > knowledge. > > > If > > > > Hindu (so called vedic) astrology would have been correct then > > > what > > > > was the need to modify it as western and in turn as KP system > > and > > > in > > > > turn as Khullar system and what was the need to create so many > > > other > > > > systems like palmistry etc. It is not for improving an existing > > > > system, otherwise all previous systems would have been buried > and > > > > some new correct system would have been survived and in turn > > every > > > > one would have been realized as to how our ole astrologer were > > > wrong. > > > > But you can see that every system is going on, because every > > system > > > > has some business and followers. But you are right that after > > > > realizing some mistake you have jumped to some new system and > it > > is > > > > correct way of analyzing a system, because you may not be a > > > > practitioner astrologer. Otherwise you may have stick to any > one > > > > system and anyhow support that system like many astrologers. > > > > > > > > Thus you were initially right when you think : > > > > >>>>>>> Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful > > > about > > > > the > > > > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system. > > > > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions, > > > > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully > > > > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any > > > > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct > > > > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led > > > > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting > > > > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the > > > > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me > > > > eager see why they were successful.<<<< > > > > and now no need to go for blind chart, you may check and > announce > > > > when Osama will die or likewise some other definite prediction > > > about > > > > any one in the world and continue to serve many Govt. > > > > > > > > Hope to receive some tested principles of khullar for definite > > > > prediction, which may not have some psychological mixture for > the > > > > larger benefit of the members. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Yours truly, > > > > Sanat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rongaunt@ au " > > > > <rongaunt@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Sanat, > > > > > > > > > > I respond to the extracted part of your message where you say: > > > > > > > > > > 'So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must > > > > > find out the procedure as to how all basic principles were > > > > > formulated and is their any scientific logic (in view of > modern > > > > > knowledge) or not.' > > > > > > > > > > Now this is a most scientific approach you have taken!! You > > have > > > > > obviously already taken the stance that Mr Khullar's work is > > > > > bogus or you would not say 'falling into another trap by > > > > > Khullar'. > > > > > > > > > > I have serious doubts that you have studied his work at all, > > > > > never mind being intimately aquatinted with it. So your > > > > > unfounded prejudice for a scientific observer is obvious for > all > > > > > to see, and is clearly hypocritical if you have not studied > the > > > > > subject. I think most would agree your approach here at > least > > is > > > > > MOST UNSCIENTIFIC. > > > > > > > > > > For your information the Khullar system is by far the most > > > > > scientific of all astrology I have come across. Mr Khullar > > > > > examined in detail both Western and Hindu astrology. He took > > > > > much from the traditions of the Hindus, and from Nadi > astrology. > > > > > He went right to the source of their ideas and worked out > > > > > exactly why they were quoting certain important slokas. He > > > > > then incorporated these ideas into a major advancement on the > KP > > > > > system using cuspal interlinks. > > > > > > > > > > I personally gave up believing authors have all (or even) > some > > of > > > > > the answers all of the time, so I thoroughly check everything > > > > > stated. If I find a system not working as stated even once > I > > > > > start having reservations. When I see it doesn't work quite > a > > > > > few times I discard it. I have not been able to do this with > > > > > the Khullar system because it does work. > > > > > > > > > > Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful about > the > > > > > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system. > > > > > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical > positions, > > > > > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had > unsuccessfully > > > > > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any > > > > > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct > > > > > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being > led > > > > > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting > > > > > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the > > > > > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me > > > > > eager see why they were successful. > > > > > > > > > > I think any experienced astrologer would agree that even if > you > > > > > ask a number of astrologers - all following the same system - > > > > > to assess or predict for an event they will invariably all > come > > > > > up with a different answer. > > > > > > > > > > This does not happen in KCIL because all charts are rectified > by > > > > > strict criteria, and invariably all students come up with the > > > > > same rectified chart. They all assess the event to get the > > > > > same answer because the cuspal interlinks are specific to the > > > > > chart and the rules are clearly laid down. This is > extremely > > > > > scientific astrology. > > > > > > > > > > Apart from success in Blind Charts there has been extremely > good > > > > > predictions ie births to the day and a narrow time frame. > Also > > > > > one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw that > she > > > > > was likely to die the following day even though she had no > known > > > > > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long > > > > > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared > > > > > fine, but the following day she died as indicated. How > many > > > > > astrologers using other systems would be sufficiently > confident > > > > > to do this? > > > > > > > > > > We have seen other things which validate the system, such as > > > > > Mr Khullar declaring that a certain person could not have been > > > > > born in a certain part of city because the events of the life > > and > > > > > family connections did not line up in regard to the relevant > > > > > house cusps. He then stated where the person was likely to > > have > > > > > been born. Checking with the native the position chosen was > > > > > almost spot on. There are many other reasons that indicate > > > > > that the system does work. > > > > > > > > > > So Sanat, first study this system in detail then pronounce on > > > > > it, that is the truly scientific way. Your opinion may then > > > > > carry some weight but until then it is difficult for anyone to > > > > > take your opinions (at least on this matter) seriously. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ron Gaunt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:13:14 -0000, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >Dear Ron, > > > > > >Welcome in the forum for your first msg. > > > > > >You have good knowledge of astrology, still you are not > > > convinced > > > > > >with any system and advocating an another Khullar system. I > am > > > > > >reproducing your stand > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>Again most do not realise that it is possible to see > > > > anything > > > > > >and everything you want to see after the event with ANY and > > > EVERY > > > > > >system, due to the enormous number of permutations. > > > > > >I think I have looked at just about every astrological > system > > > and > > > > > >method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, > and > > > > others > > > > > >do not give consistently good results. <<<<<<<<<<< > > > > > > > > > > > >against you. Because it makes no difference as to whether we > > are > > > > > >linking any past event with some principles or we are > linking > > > > future > > > > > >prediction with our psychology. If I will say your next > month > > is > > > > not > > > > > >good and you have faith on predictive astrology, then every > > > > > >psychological odd in next month will be linked with this > > > > prediction > > > > > >and in sub-conscious mind you may bent upon to think that > > > > astrology > > > > > >is correct. So it has no relevancy at all. > > > > > > > > > > > >We in India are being befooled and cheated by astrologers > > since > > > > 2000 > > > > > >years without knowing that sign was devised by Greeks and > > > adopted > > > > by > > > > > >us without any religious support. Because mass population > > always > > > > > >remains uneducated and educated lot are being lured by crowd > > of > > > > heads > > > > > >on shoulders (without knowing that their heads are empty in > > this > > > > > >respect) who follows some traditions. Cunning or ignorant > > > > astrologers > > > > > >after reading some latest books on astrology, full with > praise > > > of > > > > > >sages and latest data of solar system thinks (and propagate) > > > that > > > > our > > > > > >sages were well known with modern data. Thus they are able > to > > > > befool > > > > > >ignorant public in the name of Ved, Sage, Myth and so on > with > > > the > > > > > >help of Media and publicity. > > > > > > > > > > > >Bare fact is this that our sages were very logical and open > to > > > all > > > > > >sort of logical knowledge (which can not be questioned). > They > > > were > > > > > >very clear when they appreciate the knowledge of Greeks > > because > > > > they > > > > > >were of the opinion " tamso ma jyotirgamay " means we must go > > > ahead > > > > > >towards knowledge from ignorance. For the purpose of > knowledge > > > > they > > > > > >were following " Vasudevam kutumbkam " means whole world is a > > > > family. > > > > > >Thus they adopted sign system and other knowledge from > Greeks > > > and > > > > > >mixed it with our constellational system and religious > concept > > > of > > > > > >formation of universe. Thus our sages formulated basic > > > principles > > > > > >like sign lord, aspect, friendship, exalted, dasha and so on > > > > (refer > > > > > >my book in Hindi or in English for detailed procedure etc.), > > by > > > > which > > > > > >they were able to forecast some thing which happens to be > true > > > > > >(psychologically, and this phenomena was not known till 18th > > > > > >century). Thus Greeks then Romans adopted these principles > and > > > > > >subsequently slightly modified (aspect) as Western system, > > > whereas > > > > > >sign lord etc are same. As we Indians are not aware that > > concept > > > > of > > > > > >sign belongs to Greek / Babylonia likewise Western countries > > are > > > > not > > > > > >aware that sign lord etc. principles were formulated by our > > > sages > > > > on > > > > > >the basis of religious myth that Earth is stationary, Sun is > > > > nearer > > > > > >then Moon, all constellation are just above Moon and so on. > In > > > > this > > > > > >way where we Indians are being befooled in the name of Ved, > > > sages; > > > > > >likewise western countries were being befooled that > predictive > > > > > >principals were formulated by Ptolemy and now everyone is > > after > > > > > >socalled " Vedic astrology " without knowing that there is no > > > > > >predictive astrology in Ved. Thus predictive astrology is > > merely > > > a > > > > > >psychological game like magic. We must enjoy this game but > > must > > > > not > > > > > >be lured like a fool who may be lured by creation of > currency > > > > notes > > > > > >from a box by a magician and left his job in the hope to > > create > > > > note > > > > > >from that box. > > > > > > > > > > > >So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you > must > > > find > > > > > >out the procedure as to how all basic principles were > > formulated > > > > and > > > > > >is their any scientific logic (in view of modern knowledge) > or > > > > not. > > > > > > > > > > > >Some points were discussed in brief (refer SOA_______ files > in > > > > file > > > > > >section) because followers of astrology, could not stand > after > > > > > >raising very simple arguments and further discussion could > not > > > be > > > > > >done. I hope that after +35 years of experience you may like > > to > > > > > >discuss on any point. > > > > > > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > > >Yours truly, > > > > > >Sanat > > > > > > > > > > > >PS: Sh. Razdan Ji, Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji may > > > please > > > > > >come forward with reply on my comments. Silence is not a > > > solution. > > > > > >Silently reading is also not a solution. When we are in a > > forum > > > > then > > > > > >either we must educate other members or may improve our > > > knowledge. > > > > > >Remaining " as it is " is not a good sign. For improvement we > > must > > > > have > > > > > >inquisitive mind. I am ready to learn from expert > astrologers > > > but > > > > not > > > > > >as blind supporter. If Astrology is science then it must > cross > > > all > > > > > >questions and must have logical answers to all sort of doubt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rongaunt@ au " > > > > > ><rongaunt@> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Friends, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I am new to the forum, but have a fair knowledge of > > astrology > > > as > > > > > >> it has been my hobby for over 35 years. I am all for > > > > > >> questioning the validity of the subject, as I suspect that > > many > > > > > >> many astrologers, are very gullible because they have not > > > > > >> studied deeply enough to realise that the permutations in > > > > > >> astrology run into the millions. Again most do not > realise > > > that > > > > > >> it is possible to see anything and everything you want to > see > > > > > >> after the event with ANY and EVERY system, due to the > > enormous > > > > > >> number of permutations. And f course, very few if any, go > > on > > > to > > > > > >> achieve good predictions. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I think I have looked at just about every astrological > > system > > > and > > > > > >> method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, > > and > > > > > >> others do not give consistently good results. It has been > > my > > > aim > > > > > >> to find one that does work, and to this end I started > > possibly > > > > > >> the first of the regulat Blind Charts tests on the Web > many > > > years > > > > > >> ago. I hoped to find a system that really did work. It > is > > > > > >> only in the last year or so that I have found such a > system, > > > > > >> which drew my attention because the students of a > particular > > > > > >> astrological institution kept getting correct results in > our > > > > > >> Blind Chart tests. The system is the Khullar method of > > > Cuspal > > > > > >> Interlinks. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Anyhow my intention in writing this mail was to point out > > that > > > it > > > > > >> is not very practical to furnish personal data and then > > predict > > > > > >> from it, because the waiting time for the prediction means > > > > > >> everyone will lose interest long before the event does or > > does > > > > > >> not happen. It would be much better to get members to > > furnish > > > > > >> data, to include some events and family birthdates in > order > > to > > > be > > > > > >> able to rectify the chart, and give say four options which > > > > > >> participants will check to find out which of these options > > > > > >> happened on a given date. This is real life astrology > and > > is > > > > > >> almost as good as future prediction, because you use > exactly > > > the > > > > > >> same methods on an unknown event. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Ron Gaunt > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:44:09 -0000, you wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> >Shri Jagannathan Kapisthalamji, > > > > > >> >Namaskar! > > > > > >> ><If you can furnish your date of birth,place and time of > > > birth > > > > let > > > > > >us > > > > > >> >try some astrological predictions and see whether they > > work.?> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >My late maternal grandfather used to make predictions > from > > > > > >horoscopes > > > > > >> >prepared from Grahalaghava panchangas, which were > anything > > > but > > > > > >> >correct, and that was admitted by the Panchanga makers > > > > > >themselves! > > > > > >> >Quite often his predictions proved correct! > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >Does that prove that any predictive gimmicks are either > > > > scientific > > > > > >or > > > > > >> >Vedic? No. That cannot be so, since Grahalaghava was/is > > > > neither a > > > > > >> >Vedic work nor a scientific one! > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >Thus even if some astrologers are able to make some > correct > > > > > >> >predictions about some one sometimes, that never > > means/proves > > > > that > > > > > >> >those predictions were either on a scientific basis or as > > per > > > > the > > > > > >> >Vedic lore! All that proves is that sometimes some guess > > > works > > > > do > > > > > >> >prove correct and that is why more often than not, > correct > > > > > >preictions > > > > > >> >are made only from incorrect data, whether birth > > particulars > > > or > > > > > >> >astronomical data, since Lahiri Ayanamsha in itself is > the > > > most > > > > > >> >monstrous ayanamsha that could ever have been invented by > > any > > > > > >> >charlatan!! And it is on the basis of only that ayanamsha > > > that > > > > > >ninety- > > > > > >> >nine per cent predictions are made these days! > > > > > >> >With regards, > > > > > >> >A K Kaul > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > , " Jagannathan > > > > > >Kapisthalam " > > > > > >> ><jagannathankr@> wrote: > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> Dear Sir, > > > > > >> >> Your article is quite interesting.If you can furnish > your > > > > date of > > > > > >> >> birth,place and time of birth let us try some > > astrological > > > > > >> >predictions and > > > > > >> >> see whether they work.?This is only out of academic > > > interest. > > > > > >> >> Regards, > > > > > >> >> jagannathan. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Resp. members, > > > > > >> >> > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of > > > > discussion > > > > > >on > > > > > >> >> > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am > > > enclosing > > > > my > > > > > >old > > > > > >> >> > blog placed in the file section so that members may > > read > > > it > > > > and > > > > > >> >> > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not > > > > reacting > > > > > >> >with a > > > > > >> >> > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though > > > they > > > > are > > > > > >> >> > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can > > > > interact > > > > > >on > > > > > >> >my > > > > > >> >> > email sanatkumar_jain@ <sanatkumar_jain% > > 40rediffmail.com> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > So far members have observed that supporters of > > astrology > > > > are > > > > > >> >either > > > > > >> >> > interested in by passing the main point or they have > > only > > > > > >faith on > > > > > >> >> > astrology without any scientific or logical support > to > > > any > > > > > >> >concept. > > > > > >> >> > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing > others > > > to > > > > > >follow > > > > > >> >the > > > > > >> >> > path of ignorance. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am > > > always > > > > > >> >interested > > > > > >> >> > in looking deep. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Thanks > > > > > >> >> > Sanat > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > > > > >> >> > Will you please like to ponder and instead of > sticking > > to > > > > some > > > > > >> >> > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not > > > > studied > > > > > >in > > > > > >> >depth > > > > > >> >> > but you only have faith, because you have been > informed > > > > like > > > > > >> >this. So > > > > > >> >> > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself > > as > > > to > > > > > >> >whether > > > > > >> >> > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of > > > > science > > > > > >due > > > > > >> >to > > > > > >> >> > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the > > > sentiments > > > > of > > > > > >> >> > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I > > > only > > > > > >want to > > > > > >> >> > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then > > let > > > > us > > > > > >> >examine > > > > > >> >> > it and then there will be no question of hurting, > > because > > > > you > > > > > >have > > > > > >> >> > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you > > are > > > > > >standing > > > > > >> >in > > > > > >> >> > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which > > has > > > > been > > > > > >> >> > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that > > astrology > > > > is a > > > > > >> >> > science without knowing the story of other side. I > can > > > > > >understand > > > > > >> >the > > > > > >> >> > problem of astrologer that they will loose their > > business > > > > but > > > > > >if > > > > > >> >you > > > > > >> >> > are a client then you must have right to know the > truth > > > or > > > > > >call an > > > > > >> >> > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > At the time of formulating the astrological > principles > > in > > > > early > > > > > >> >> > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living > > being > > > > has > > > > > >> >> > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. > > > This > > > > > >> >religious > > > > > >> >> > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called > planet > > > > (Sun, > > > > > >> >Moon, > > > > > >> >> > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those > > days > > > > only > > > > > >> >sages > > > > > >> >> > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. > Thus > > > > after > > > > > >> >> > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the > > skill > > > > to > > > > > >> >predict > > > > > >> >> > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so- > > > called > > > > > >> >grabbing > > > > > >> >> > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and > > > Ketu. > > > > > >> >> > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse > > and > > > its > > > > > >> >> > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer > > > > > >donations > > > > > >> >etc. > > > > > >> >> > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, > > > which > > > > is > > > > > >> >still > > > > > >> >> > being followed. It was also religious concept that > fate > > > of > > > > > >> >everybody > > > > > >> >> > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this > > > > > >situation, > > > > > >> >it > > > > > >> >> > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to > predict > > > the > > > > > >fate > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not > > predict > > > > the > > > > > >> >fate of > > > > > >> >> > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to > formulate > > > > various > > > > > >> >> > astrological principles on the basis of the then > > > knowledge > > > > of > > > > > >> >sages > > > > > >> >> > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. > > > These > > > > > >> >principles > > > > > >> >> > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was > > never > > > > > >> >percolated > > > > > >> >> > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard > > barrier > > > to > > > > > >learn > > > > > >> >> > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these > > > > principles > > > > > >were > > > > > >> >> > spread to other civilisation and later on developed > as > > > > Western > > > > > >> >system. > > > > > >> >> > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. > > One > > > > group > > > > > >> >> > belongs to astrologers who always try to support > > > astrology > > > > due > > > > > >to > > > > > >> >> > their business considerations (these astrologers > always > > > try > > > > to > > > > > >fit > > > > > >> >> > past event very precisely within some astrological > > > > principle > > > > > >> >within a > > > > > >> >> > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) > and > > > > faith > > > > > >etc., > > > > > >> >> > but they are unable to predict any future event. > > Because > > > > > >> >astrological > > > > > >> >> > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too > > > > diabolical > > > > > >> >> > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in > > > > fluke) > > > > > >may > > > > > >> >come > > > > > >> >> > true then they start to harp on the same prediction > and > > > > start > > > > > >self > > > > > >> >> > praising instead of applying the same socalled > > principle > > > on > > > > > >other > > > > > >> >> > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can > > only > > > > > >mislead, > > > > > >> >> > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. > You > > > can > > > > > >find > > > > > >> >that > > > > > >> >> > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other > > > group > > > > (say > > > > > >> >> > scientist) try to raise some logical questions > against > > > > > >astrology. > > > > > >> >But > > > > > >> >> > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to > what > > > was > > > > the > > > > > >> >level > > > > > >> >> > of information of sages about the Universe, who > > developed > > > > > >> >> > astrological principles in primitive age and what > > > procedure > > > > was > > > > > >> >> > adopted to formulate various principles relating to > > > > Lordship, > > > > > >> >> > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, > > > Vinshottary > > > > > >> >> > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of > principles > > > then > > > > > >> >following > > > > > >> >> > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is > given > > in > > > > > >> >subpara). > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs > > among > > > > seven > > > > > >> >> > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above > the > > > > > >stationary > > > > > >> >> > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is > > > enmity > > > > and > > > > > >> >> > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn > are > > > > enemy > > > > > >of > > > > > >> >each > > > > > >> >> > other) ? > > > > > >> >> > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and > > > > demons > > > > > >over > > > > > >> >> > nector after sea-churning……….. > > > > > >> >> > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect > > > > (full, > > > > > >> >quarter > > > > > >> >> > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full > > aspect > > > on > > > > > >> >seventh > > > > > >> >> > house) ? > > > > > >> >> > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets > are > > > > > >exalted > > > > > >> >and > > > > > >> >> > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 > > deg. > > > of > > > > > >Aries > > > > > >> >> > sign) ? > > > > > >> >> > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when > > > duration > > > > of > > > > > >the > > > > > >> >> > day is more in comparison to night…… > > > > > >> >> > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most > > powerful > > > > and > > > > > >hub > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha > > > whereas > > > > > >Venus > > > > > >> >(a > > > > > >> >> > small planet) has 20 years ? > > > > > >> >> > Based on two triangles derived after working out the > > > effect > > > > of > > > > > >> >> > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > > > > >> >> > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various > > > > constellations > > > > > >> >between > > > > > >> >> > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Kratica was first constellation in Indian > scriptures………. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days > of > > a > > > > week > > > > > >> >> > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > > > > >> >> > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in > > the > > > > > >> >structure > > > > > >> >> > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far > away….. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed > retrograde > > > > motion > > > > > >of > > > > > >> >> > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > > > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > > > > >> >> > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, > Ketu > > > are > > > > 180 > > > > > >> >deg. > > > > > >> >> > apart? > > > > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > > > > >> >> > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of > > > eclipse ? > > > > > >> >> > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation > > month………. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final > > > question > > > > as > > > > > >to > > > > > >> >> > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some > > one > > > > gave > > > > > >> >> > answers to these questions then he will realize that > > > entire > > > > > >> >> > astrological principles are totally based on wrong > > > concept > > > > of > > > > > >> >> > Universe. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Everybody may agree that every research is based on > the > > > then > > > > > >> >> > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was > > developed > > > by > > > > > >sage > > > > > >> >> > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth > > is > > > in > > > > the > > > > > >> >> > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also > > > believed > > > > in > > > > > >all > > > > > >> >> > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may > > > read > > > > any > > > > > >old > > > > > >> >> > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, > whereas > > > Moon > > > > is > > > > > >> >beyond > > > > > >> >> > Sun. All constellations are situated in between > Mercury > > > and > > > > > >Moon. > > > > > >> >> > You may be surprised to know that all astrological > > > > principles > > > > > >are > > > > > >> >> > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self > > > studying > > > > > >> >astrology > > > > > >> >> > since last 35 years and developed softwares to > conclude > > > > correct > > > > > >> >> > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same > > > > > >combination is > > > > > >> >> > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh > > > > logically > > > > > >and > > > > > >> >> > systematically over this subject and I find that > > > Primitive > > > > > >concept > > > > > >> >> > (when astrology was developed) requires full > > overhauling > > > in > > > > > >view > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > modern scientific astronomy, according to which > > primitive > > > > > >concept > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > > > > >> >> > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > > > > > >> >astrology " Jyotish - > > > > > >> >> > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This > book > > > > > >contains > > > > > >> >the > > > > > >> >> > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these > > principles > > > on > > > > > >the > > > > > >> >basis > > > > > >> >> > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads > > our > > > > > >sages to > > > > > >> >> > formulate these principles. This book was also > > published > > > in > > > > > >> >English > > > > > >> >> > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 > > pages). > > > > The > > > > > >> >book is > > > > > >> >> > being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > > > > >> >> > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > > > > > >> >produktID=1759836 > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp? > > > AUB=sanat% > > > > > >> >20kumar% > > > > > >> >> > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > > > > >> >> > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, > > > > Neptune > > > > > >nor > > > > > >> >they > > > > > >> >> > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due > > to > > > > > >presence > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have > > developed > > > > the > > > > > >> >concept > > > > > >> >> > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It > > was > > > > > >> >mentioned in > > > > > >> >> > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu > > came > > > > > >within 14 > > > > > >> >> > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full > > > Moon). > > > > But > > > > > >> >nobody > > > > > >> >> > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar > > > eclipse > > > > > >when > > > > > >> >Sun, > > > > > >> >> > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree > > > > > >respectively > > > > > >> >on > > > > > >> >> > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when > Sun, > > > Moon > > > > > >and > > > > > >> >Ketu > > > > > >> >> > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively > > on > > > 03- > > > > 03- > > > > > >> >1988 ( > > > > > >> >> > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that > > Solar > > > > > >eclipses > > > > > >> >> > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu > was > > > > more > > > > > >then > > > > > >> >> > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu > was > > at > > > > > >79.04 > > > > > >> >deg. > > > > > >> >> > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and > Moon > > > were > > > > at > > > > > >> >76.49 > > > > > >> >> > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 > > (Rahu > > > > was > > > > > >15.14 > > > > > >> >> > deg. away). > > > > > >> >> > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, > > you > > > > will > > > > > >also > > > > > >> >> > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse > > > > occurred > > > > > >at > > > > > >> >the > > > > > >> >> > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon > (though > > > it > > > > was > > > > > >not > > > > > >> >> > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the > > > basis > > > > of > > > > > >> >myth). > > > > > >> >> > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar > > eclipse, > > > > when > > > > > >Moon > > > > > >> >> > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also > be > > > > there. > > > > > >But > > > > > >> >As > > > > > >> >> > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on > 12- > > 11- > > > > 1985 > > > > > >> >and 3- > > > > > >> >> > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there > > were > > > > full > > > > > >> >solar > > > > > >> >> > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 > > > degree > > > > > >> >> > respectively. You will agree that when there were > full > > > > solar > > > > > >> >eclipses > > > > > >> >> > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at > 206 > > > and > > > > 166 > > > > > >> >degree > > > > > >> >> > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse > may > > > > > >possible. > > > > > >> >> > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees > in > > > > > >almanac. > > > > > >> >Thus > > > > > >> >> > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees > > > > > >respectively. > > > > > >> >All > > > > > >> >> > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to > this > > > > > >fundamental > > > > > >> >> > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If > > you > > > > want > > > > > >> >then I > > > > > >> >> > can give many more examples and very simple method of > > > > > >detecting > > > > > >> >them. > > > > > >> >> > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a > > > > science > > > > > >but > > > > > >> >in > > > > > >> >> > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of > > > > astronomy + > > > > > >> >> > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, > > > > psychology > > > > > >> >> > (recently discovered and it was not known in > primitive > > > age) > > > > > >> >played an > > > > > >> >> > important role in handling a person by the astrologer > > due > > > > to > > > > > >> >immense > > > > > >> >> > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive > > > astrology > > > > > >> >appears to > > > > > >> >> > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You > > will > > > > also > > > > > >> >agree > > > > > >> >> > with the above observation after going through my > > original > > > > > >> >> > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre- > > > > decided > > > > > >as > > > > > >> >was > > > > > >> >> > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why > we > > > may > > > > try > > > > > >to > > > > > >> >do > > > > > >> >> > some thing, because every thing will take place > > according > > > > to > > > > > >pre- > > > > > >> >> > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of > > > > modifying > > > > > >that > > > > > >> >pre- > > > > > >> >> > written destiny, because if we try to change only our > > > fate, > > > > > >even > > > > > >> >then > > > > > >> >> > all attached happening will automatically change > > creating > > > a > > > > > >> >cascading > > > > > >> >> > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written > fate > > of > > > > every > > > > > >> >> > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre- > written > > or > > > > say > > > > > >pre- > > > > > >> >> > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because > > > when > > > > > >every > > > > > >> >Tom, > > > > > >> >> > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to > > worship, > > > > good > > > > > >> >deed > > > > > >> >> > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain > > under > > > > > >change. > > > > > >> >You > > > > > >> >> > will agree that astrology is totally based on > > mathematical > > > > > >> >> > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed > > and > > > > can > > > > > >> >never > > > > > >> >> > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart > > > > cannot be > > > > > >> >> > altered it means result of calculation or say > > prediction > > > is > > > > > >also > > > > > >> >> > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is > > ever > > > > > >> >prewritten) > > > > > >> >> > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu > etc. > > > > because > > > > > >in > > > > > >> >> > that case, if you like to say, then future events > will > > be > > > > > >altered > > > > > >> >but > > > > > >> >> > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked > > > prediction > > > > > >can be > > > > > >> >> > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed > > > transit > > > > of > > > > > >> >> > planets? > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Those who think that astrology is a science may be > rest > > > > > >assured > > > > > >> >that > > > > > >> >> > actually predictive astrology is not a science at > all. > > > Only > > > > > >> >astronomy > > > > > >> >> > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) > were > > > used > > > > > >> >> > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it > > > appears > > > > > >> >correct. > > > > > >> >> > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is > a > > > > myth. > > > > > >> >Still if > > > > > >> >> > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you > > contact > > > > The > > > > > >James > > > > > >> >> > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US > $1000000 > > > > prize to > > > > > >> >> > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His > e- > > > mail > > > > and > > > > > >> >> > website is jref@ <jref%40randi.org> and > > > > > >> >http://www.randi.orgBecause modern > > > > > >> >> > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are > > being > > > > used > > > > > >to > > > > > >> >> > spread this myth in the cover up of science with > vested > > > > > >business > > > > > >> >> > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to > fight > > > > this > > > > > >sort > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information > in > > > this > > > > > >regard > > > > > >> >> > and readers of the book are fully convinced that > > astrology > > > > > >> >> > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to > > > > formulate > > > > > >> >> > principles was neither logical nor based on correct > > > > > >information of > > > > > >> >> > Universe, solar system. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and > > > > facts, > > > > > >data > > > > > >> >> > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward > > to > > > > join > > > > > >> >hands > > > > > >> >> > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). > > > > > >> >> > Sanat Kumar Jain > > > > > >> >> > Think differently, Think logically and Think > > > scientifically > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >--- > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2008 Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 dear sir, yr profound knowledge has enlightening to starters like me. the question raised by our respectful Jainji is well explianed, i hope with regards vimal --- On Sat, 8/2/08, Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved wrote: Avtar Krishen Kaul <jyotirved Re: Astrology a science or myth Date: Saturday, August 2, 2008, 7:46 AM Dear Jain Sahib,Namaskar!Let me clarify something about your PS first---Kethu being at 115° when the moon is at 105°:The following few lines are being quoted from "Practical Astronomy with your calculator" by Peter Duffet-Smith, Cambridge University Press) page 153---under the heading "The rules of eclipses" and can be understood even by a layman:"Here is a summary of the most important 'rules' which appear to govern the occurence of eclipses(a) A lunar eclipse can occur only at full Moon and a solar eclipse at new Moon. There is not an eclipse every month.(b) At least two solar eclipses occur every year, and never more than five. There are a maximum of three lunar eclipses in a year. The highest total number of eclipses in a year, lunar and solar, is seven.© Eclipses tend to go in pairs or threes: solar---lunar- --solar. A lunar eclipse is always preceded or followed by a solar eclipse (two weeks in between them)(d) The pattern of eclipses tends to recur in cycles of 18 yers 11 days and 8 hours, the so-called 'Saros cycle'. The pattern is not repeated exactly.(e) At the moment of greatest eclipse the Sun and Moon are either in opposition or conjunction. If the angle between the line of nodes and the Sun or Moon is greater than 12° 15' a total lunar eclipse is not possible, while if it is less than 9° 30' a lunar eclipse must occur. If the angle is more than 18° 31' a solar eclipse canot happen, while if it is less than 15° 31' a solar eclipse must occur.(f) In a lunar eclipse, the total phase can last for a maximum time of 1 hour 40 minutes, and the umbral phase, partial-total- partial, for a maximum time of 3 hours 40 minutes. The maximum time of total solar elipse (at the equator) is 7 minutes 40 seconds and an annular eclipse can last at most for 12 minutes and 24 seconds"I hope it clarifies the situation that Kethu can be away from the Moon by upto 15° 31' (or even 18° 31') during a solar eclipse. WE MUST NOT FORGET THAT A REAL TOTAL SOLAR ECLIPSE WHICH ENGULFS THE ENTIRE GLOBE ---AT LEAST THE HALF OF IT----IN DARNKESS IS NEVER POSSIBLE BEFORE THE "DOOMSDAY"! However, a total lunar eclipse can and does happen very often without any "doomsday", but it will "engulf" only that portion in darkness where the moon is "visible"Regards,AKK, "sanat2221" <sanatkumar_ jain wrote:>> Resp Kaul ji,> Namaskar,> Thanks for your encouraging msg. on my reply to Mr. Ron. Let us see, > what he and other members of the forum specially Sh. Razdan Ji, > Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji want to say, who are silent > since long.> > You may have observed that I am time and again reminding members of > our forum to come forward for sharing their views, but unfortunately > they like to live in tunnel of faith without any fresh air of logical > approach. As I have already spent +35 years on astrology hence I want > to share my views. I am open to all and ready to discuss any point to > any length, to find some truth. Since last 5 years (after publication > of my hindi book), I have discussed with many astrologers but none of > them is able to answer basic and logical questions and privately > admit that they also experienced many failures but due to business > considerations and respect which they get from their clients, they > are not willing to oppose astrology though they are convinced with > the content my book that foundation is based on primitive knowledge. > But what we can do except either to learn something from the > interaction or inform about the hollow astrological principals.> > I find that you are member of many forums hence I will like to > request you that if some astrologers are interested in interaction > then please invite him in our forum for open and uncensored > interaction on predictive astrology. I find that many forums are only > busy in promoting their business and do not want any sincere analysis.> > Thanks > > Yours truly,> Sanat> > PS : Now each and every astrological book, magazine and astrologers > are explaining (or befooling) that Rahu and Ketu are intersection > point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though this was not the concept > of our sages). Today on 1-8-8, there is total solar eclipse when Sun > and Moon may be at +105 degree but Ketu is at 115 degree. Now > everybody knows that at the time of total solar eclipse Moon is going > to intersect the orbit of the Sun and during intersection Sun happens > to be on the point of intersection hence we can see total solar > eclipse. Now my question to the members of the forum is that what > Ketu (which is intersection point of orbits) is doing at 115 degree, > whereas it must be at 105 degree the location where Sun and Moon are > transiting. Thus can't member realize that position of these shadow > planets in the horoscopes is wrong. (other such examples are also > given in my blog `Astrology a science or myth')> Hope to have some answer for further discussion. Members may discuss > personally to other astrologers or consult in other forums if they do > not have any answer.> sanat > > > > > , "Avtar Krishen Kaul" > <jyotirved@> wrote:> >> > Dear Jain Sahib,> > Excellent analysis!> > Congratulations for dissecting such a terse subject as "astrology"- -> -> > about which literally trillions of volumes have been written---in > > such a simple yet pithy manner!> > Regards,> > AKK> > , "sanat2221" > > <sanatkumar_ jain@> wrote:> > >> > > > > > Resp Ron,> > > Thanks for your comments.> > > At least thanks for admitting that Hindu (vedic) and western and > KP > > > systems are not working correctly. Hence you have left them and > > > adopted a new Khullar system.> > > > > > Khullar system is a mixture of Hindu and KP system; whereas KP > > system > > > is a mixture of Hindu and Western system. So indirectly Khullar > > > system has adopted a way of old wine in new bottle. I have also > > tried > > > to fuse these both systems in many ways and result of fusion may > be > > > seen in `Eskain horoscope' in file section. But again like head > and > > > tail of a coin, some prediction may right randomly but same > > > combination is not working in another horoscope. It will take > some > > > more time to you to realize that this system is also not working. > > > Because basic building block of this system too, like all others, > > is > > > based on sign, sign lord, cusp (which is a reverse copy of > > > Vinshottary dasha"), friendship, exalted etc. Until unless these > > > building blocks of predictive astrology may have some scientific > or > > > logical theory behind them till then how you can say that some > > thing > > > can be predicted. Because only that event can be predicted which > is > > > predestined and take your time to realize / think that even if a > > > single event of future of any one life is fixed then whole > sequence > > > of event of the life may automatically be fixed. This in turn may > > fix > > > the sequence of event of other life. Thus whole set up will be > > fixed. > > > Then where is the use of knowing the future or where is the scope > > of > > > amending any unpleasant event.> > > > > > You have mentioned an event of > > > >>>>>>> one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw > that > > > she> > > was likely to die the following day even though she had no known> > > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long> > > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared> > > fine, but the following day she died as indicated.<< <<<<<<<<. In > > this > > > connection I will like to say that every predictive system either > > it > > > may be astrology or KP system, Western system, Magi system, Lal > > > kitab, numerology, Terro card, palmistry, Nadi shastra, face > > > reading, signature reading, Vaastu, and so on have so many > stories > > to > > > tell but none of them is correct and all of them are > > psychologically > > > correct or randomly correct. Thus there is no logic in believing > > any > > > random forecast to amend our plan, decision in any respect. etc. > If > > > above story of death of mother is right in your opinion then the > > > combination in horoscope by which death may be known would have > > been > > > published in scientific journal and Khullar himself would have > been > > > appointed as chief boss of all Insurance companies to see as to > > > whether life insurance of a person may be done or not. Thus you > can > > > see that only a single forecast based on combination of planets > may > > > lead to flow of money then what would happen if a system > (khullar) > > > would have been correct in many respect ie. It may tell about > job, > > > promotion, illness, health and so on. You may please intimate the > > > planetary cuspal combination of the horoscope by which death was > > > decoded for the benefit of the members of the forum, who may take > > > benefit of such a combination and get insured. Do not take it > > > otherwise, I am seriously requesting you and if you don't have > that > > > combination then you may intimate some other combination, or you > > may > > > check yourself the viability of the system and get rid off.> > > > > > Our basic question is still pending that so long any one is not > > able > > > to know that how basic building block of predictive astrology > (sign > > > lord etc. ) were formulated and whether procedure adopted has > some > > > scientific or logical approach till then we all are bound to fall > > in > > > one or another trap. I am saying so that I find (not to say after > > how > > > much labour) that all predictive principles were formulated on > > > primitive myth, knowledge, tradition etc. and thus these > principles > > > have no logical or scientific support in view of modern > knowledge. > > If > > > Hindu (so called vedic) astrology would have been correct then > > what > > > was the need to modify it as western and in turn as KP system > and > > in > > > turn as Khullar system and what was the need to create so many > > other > > > systems like palmistry etc. It is not for improving an existing > > > system, otherwise all previous systems would have been buried and > > > some new correct system would have been survived and in turn > every > > > one would have been realized as to how our ole astrologer were > > wrong. > > > But you can see that every system is going on, because every > system > > > has some business and followers. But you are right that after > > > realizing some mistake you have jumped to some new system and it > is > > > correct way of analyzing a system, because you may not be a > > > practitioner astrologer. Otherwise you may have stick to any one > > > system and anyhow support that system like many astrologers.> > > > > > Thus you were initially right when you think :> > > >>>>>>> Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful > > about > > > the> > > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system.> > > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions,> > > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully> > > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any> > > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct> > > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led> > > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting> > > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the> > > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me> > > eager see why they were successful.< << > > and now no need to go for blind chart, you may check and announce > > > when Osama will die or likewise some other definite prediction > > about > > > any one in the world and continue to serve many Govt.> > > > > > Hope to receive some tested principles of khullar for definite > > > prediction, which may not have some psychological mixture for the > > > larger benefit of the members.> > > > > > Thanks,> > > > > > Yours truly,> > > Sanat> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , "rongaunt@ au" > > > <rongaunt@> wrote:> > > >> > > > > > > > Hi Sanat,> > > > > > > > I respond to the extracted part of your message where you say:> > > > > > > > 'So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must> > > > find out the procedure as to how all basic principles were> > > > formulated and is their any scientific logic (in view of modern> > > > knowledge) or not.'> > > > > > > > Now this is a most scientific approach you have taken!! You > have> > > > obviously already taken the stance that Mr Khullar's work is> > > > bogus or you would not say 'falling into another trap by> > > > Khullar'. > > > > > > > > I have serious doubts that you have studied his work at all,> > > > never mind being intimately aquatinted with it. So your> > > > unfounded prejudice for a scientific observer is obvious for all> > > > to see, and is clearly hypocritical if you have not studied the> > > > subject. I think most would agree your approach here at least > is> > > > MOST UNSCIENTIFIC.> > > > > > > > For your information the Khullar system is by far the most> > > > scientific of all astrology I have come across. Mr Khullar> > > > examined in detail both Western and Hindu astrology. He took> > > > much from the traditions of the Hindus, and from Nadi astrology.> > > > He went right to the source of their ideas and worked out> > > > exactly why they were quoting certain important slokas. He> > > > then incorporated these ideas into a major advancement on the KP> > > > system using cuspal interlinks.> > > > > > > > I personally gave up believing authors have all (or even) some > of> > > > the answers all of the time, so I thoroughly check everything> > > > stated. If I find a system not working as stated even once I> > > > start having reservations. When I see it doesn't work quite a> > > > few times I discard it. I have not been able to do this with> > > > the Khullar system because it does work.> > > > > > > > Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful about the> > > > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system.> > > > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions,> > > > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully> > > > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any> > > > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct> > > > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led> > > > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting> > > > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the> > > > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me> > > > eager see why they were successful.> > > > > > > > I think any experienced astrologer would agree that even if you> > > > ask a number of astrologers - all following the same system -> > > > to assess or predict for an event they will invariably all come> > > > up with a different answer. > > > > > > > > This does not happen in KCIL because all charts are rectified by> > > > strict criteria, and invariably all students come up with the> > > > same rectified chart. They all assess the event to get the> > > > same answer because the cuspal interlinks are specific to the> > > > chart and the rules are clearly laid down. This is extremely> > > > scientific astrology.> > > > > > > > Apart from success in Blind Charts there has been extremely good> > > > predictions ie births to the day and a narrow time frame. Also> > > > one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw that she> > > > was likely to die the following day even though she had no known> > > > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long> > > > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared> > > > fine, but the following day she died as indicated. How many> > > > astrologers using other systems would be sufficiently confident> > > > to do this?> > > > > > > > We have seen other things which validate the system, such as > > > > Mr Khullar declaring that a certain person could not have been> > > > born in a certain part of city because the events of the life > and> > > > family connections did not line up in regard to the relevant> > > > house cusps. He then stated where the person was likely to > have> > > > been born. Checking with the native the position chosen was> > > > almost spot on. There are many other reasons that indicate> > > > that the system does work.> > > > > > > > So Sanat, first study this system in detail then pronounce on> > > > it, that is the truly scientific way. Your opinion may then> > > > carry some weight but until then it is difficult for anyone to> > > > take your opinions (at least on this matter) seriously.> > > > > > > > > > > > Ron Gaunt> > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:13:14 -0000, you wrote:> > > > > > > > >Dear Ron,> > > > >Welcome in the forum for your first msg.> > > > >You have good knowledge of astrology, still you are not > > convinced > > > > >with any system and advocating an another Khullar system. I am > > > > >reproducing your stand > > > > >> > > > >>>>>>>>Again most do not realise that it is possible to see > > > anything > > > > >and everything you want to see after the event with ANY and > > EVERY > > > > >system, due to the enormous number of permutations.> > > > >I think I have looked at just about every astrological system > > and > > > > >method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, and > > > others > > > > >do not give consistently good results. <<<<<<<<<<<> > > > >> > > > >against you. Because it makes no difference as to whether we > are > > > > >linking any past event with some principles or we are linking > > > future > > > > >prediction with our psychology. If I will say your next month > is > > > not > > > > >good and you have faith on predictive astrology, then every > > > > >psychological odd in next month will be linked with this > > > prediction > > > > >and in sub-conscious mind you may bent upon to think that > > > astrology > > > > >is correct. So it has no relevancy at all.> > > > >> > > > >We in India are being befooled and cheated by astrologers > since > > > 2000 > > > > >years without knowing that sign was devised by Greeks and > > adopted > > > by > > > > >us without any religious support. Because mass population > always > > > > >remains uneducated and educated lot are being lured by crowd > of > > > heads > > > > >on shoulders (without knowing that their heads are empty in > this > > > > >respect) who follows some traditions. Cunning or ignorant > > > astrologers > > > > >after reading some latest books on astrology, full with praise > > of > > > > >sages and latest data of solar system thinks (and propagate) > > that > > > our > > > > >sages were well known with modern data. Thus they are able to > > > befool > > > > >ignorant public in the name of Ved, Sage, Myth and so on with > > the > > > > >help of Media and publicity..> > > > >> > > > >Bare fact is this that our sages were very logical and open to > > all > > > > >sort of logical knowledge (which can not be questioned). They > > were > > > > >very clear when they appreciate the knowledge of Greeks > because > > > they > > > > >were of the opinion "tamso ma jyotirgamay" means we must go > > ahead > > > > >towards knowledge from ignorance. For the purpose of knowledge > > > they > > > > >were following "Vasudevam kutumbkam" means whole world is a > > > family. > > > > >Thus they adopted sign system and other knowledge from Greeks > > and > > > > >mixed it with our constellational system and religious concept > > of > > > > >formation of universe. Thus our sages formulated basic > > principles > > > > >like sign lord, aspect, friendship, exalted, dasha and so on > > > (refer > > > > >my book in Hindi or in English for detailed procedure etc.), > by > > > which > > > > >they were able to forecast some thing which happens to be true > > > > >(psychologically, and this phenomena was not known till 18th > > > > >century). Thus Greeks then Romans adopted these principles and > > > > >subsequently slightly modified (aspect) as Western system, > > whereas > > > > >sign lord etc are same. As we Indians are not aware that > concept > > > of > > > > >sign belongs to Greek / Babylonia likewise Western countries > are > > > not > > > > >aware that sign lord etc. principles were formulated by our > > sages > > > on > > > > >the basis of religious myth that Earth is stationary, Sun is > > > nearer > > > > >then Moon, all constellation are just above Moon and so on. In > > > this > > > > >way where we Indians are being befooled in the name of Ved, > > sages; > > > > >likewise western countries were being befooled that predictive > > > > >principals were formulated by Ptolemy and now everyone is > after > > > > >socalled "Vedic astrology" without knowing that there is no > > > > >predictive astrology in Ved. Thus predictive astrology is > merely > > a > > > > >psychological game like magic. We must enjoy this game but > must > > > not > > > > >be lured like a fool who may be lured by creation of currency > > > notes > > > > >from a box by a magician and left his job in the hope to > create > > > note > > > > >from that box.> > > > >> > > > >So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must > > find > > > > >out the procedure as to how all basic principles were > formulated > > > and > > > > >is their any scientific logic (in view of modern knowledge) or > > > not. > > > > >> > > > >Some points were discussed in brief (refer SOA_______ files in > > > file > > > > >section) because followers of astrology, could not stand after > > > > >raising very simple arguments and further discussion could not > > be > > > > >done. I hope that after +35 years of experience you may like > to > > > > >discuss on any point.> > > > >> > > > >Thanks,> > > > >Yours truly,> > > > >Sanat> > > > >> > > > >PS: Sh. Razdan Ji, Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji may > > please > > > > >come forward with reply on my comments. Silence is not a > > solution. > > > > >Silently reading is also not a solution. When we are in a > forum > > > then > > > > >either we must educate other members or may improve our > > knowledge. > > > > >Remaining "as it is" is not a good sign. For improvement we > must > > > have > > > > >inquisitive mind. I am ready to learn from expert astrologers > > but > > > not > > > > >as blind supporter. If Astrology is science then it must cross > > all > > > > >questions and must have logical answers to all sort of doubt.> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >> > > > >, "rongaunt@ au" > > > > ><rongaunt@> wrote:> > > > >>> > > > >> > > > > >> Friends,> > > > >> > > > > >> I am new to the forum, but have a fair knowledge of > astrology > > as> > > > >> it has been my hobby for over 35 years. I am all for> > > > >> questioning the validity of the subject, as I suspect that > many> > > > >> many astrologers, are very gullible because they have not> > > > >> studied deeply enough to realise that the permutations in> > > > >> astrology run into the millions. Again most do not realise > > that> > > > >> it is possible to see anything and everything you want to see> > > > >> after the event with ANY and EVERY system, due to the > enormous> > > > >> number of permutations. And f course, very few if any, go > on > > to> > > > >> achieve good predictions. > > > > >> > > > > >> I think I have looked at just about every astrological > system > > and> > > > >> method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, > and> > > > >> others do not give consistently good results. It has been > my > > aim> > > > >> to find one that does work, and to this end I started > possibly> > > > >> the first of the regulat Blind Charts tests on the Web many > > years> > > > >> ago. I hoped to find a system that really did work. It is> > > > >> only in the last year or so that I have found such a system,> > > > >> which drew my attention because the students of a particular> > > > >> astrological institution kept getting correct results in our> > > > >> Blind Chart tests. The system is the Khullar method of > > Cuspal> > > > >> Interlinks. > > > > >> > > > > >> Anyhow my intention in writing this mail was to point out > that > > it> > > > >> is not very practical to furnish personal data and then > predict> > > > >> from it, because the waiting time for the prediction means> > > > >> everyone will lose interest long before the event does or > does> > > > >> not happen. It would be much better to get members to > furnish> > > > >> data, to include some events and family birthdates in order > to > > be> > > > >> able to rectify the chart, and give say four options which> > > > >> participants will check to find out which of these options> > > > >> happened on a given date. This is real life astrology and > is> > > > >> almost as good as future prediction, because you use exactly > > the> > > > >> same methods on an unknown event.> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> Ron Gaunt> > > > >> > > > > >> > > > > >> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:44:09 -0000, you wrote:> > > > >> > > > > >> >Shri Jagannathan Kapisthalamji,> > > > >> >Namaskar!> > > > >> ><If you can furnish your date of birth,place and time of > > birth > > > let > > > > >us > > > > >> >try some astrological predictions and see whether they > work.?>> > > > >> >> > > > >> >My late maternal grandfather used to make predictions from > > > > >horoscopes > > > > >> >prepared from Grahalaghava panchangas, which were anything > > but > > > > >> >correct, and that was admitted by the Panchanga makers > > > > >themselves! > > > > >> >Quite often his predictions proved correct!> > > > >> >> > > > >> >Does that prove that any predictive gimmicks are either > > > scientific > > > > >or > > > > >> >Vedic? No. That cannot be so, since Grahalaghava was/is > > > neither a > > > > >> >Vedic work nor a scientific one!> > > > >> >> > > > >> >Thus even if some astrologers are able to make some correct > > > > >> >predictions about some one sometimes, that never > means/proves > > > that > > > > >> >those predictions were either on a scientific basis or as > per > > > the > > > > >> >Vedic lore! All that proves is that sometimes some guess > > works > > > do > > > > >> >prove correct and that is why more often than not, correct > > > > >preictions > > > > >> >are made only from incorrect data, whether birth > particulars > > or > > > > >> >astronomical data, since Lahiri Ayanamsha in itself is the > > most > > > > >> >monstrous ayanamsha that could ever have been invented by > any > > > > >> >charlatan!! And it is on the basis of only that ayanamsha > > that > > > > >ninety-> > > > >> >nine per cent predictions are made these days!> > > > >> >With regards,> > > > >> >A K Kaul> > > > >> >> > > > >> >, "Jagannathan > > > > >Kapisthalam" > > > > >> ><jagannathankr@ > wrote:> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >> Dear Sir,> > > > >> >> Your article is quite interesting. If you can furnish your > > > date of> > > > >> >> birth,place and time of birth let us try some > astrological > > > > >> >predictions and> > > > >> >> see whether they work.?This is only out of academic > > interest.> > > > >> >> Regards,> > > > >> >> jagannathan.> > > > >> >> > > > > >> >> On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_ jain@> wrote:> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > Resp. members,> > > > >> >> > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of > > > discussion > > > > >on> > > > >> >> > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am > > enclosing > > > my > > > > >old> > > > >> >> > blog placed in the file section so that members may > read > > it > > > and> > > > >> >> > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not > > > reacting > > > > >> >with a> > > > >> >> > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though > > they > > > are> > > > >> >> > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can > > > interact > > > > >on > > > > >> >my> > > > >> >> > email sanatkumar_jain@ <sanatkumar_ jain%> 40rediffmail. com>> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > So far members have observed that supporters of > astrology > > > are > > > > >> >either> > > > >> >> > interested in by passing the main point or they have > only > > > > >faith on> > > > >> >> > astrology without any scientific or logical support to > > any > > > > >> >concept.> > > > >> >> > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing others > > to > > > > >follow > > > > >> >the> > > > >> >> > path of ignorance.> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am > > always > > > > >> >interested> > > > >> >> > in looking deep.> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > Thanks> > > > >> >> > Sanat> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH> > > > >> >> > Will you please like to ponder and instead of sticking > to > > > some> > > > >> >> > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not > > > studied > > > > >in > > > > >> >depth> > > > >> >> > but you only have faith, because you have been informed > > > like > > > > >> >this. So> > > > >> >> > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself > as > > to > > > > >> >whether> > > > >> >> > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of > > > science > > > > >due > > > > >> >to> > > > >> >> > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the > > sentiments > > > of> > > > >> >> > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I > > only > > > > >want to> > > > >> >> > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then > let > > > us > > > > >> >examine> > > > >> >> > it and then there will be no question of hurting, > because > > > you > > > > >have> > > > >> >> > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you > are > > > > >standing > > > > >> >in> > > > >> >> > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which > has > > > been> > > > >> >> > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that > astrology > > > is a> > > > >> >> > science without knowing the story of other side. I can > > > > >understand > > > > >> >the> > > > >> >> > problem of astrologer that they will loose their > business > > > but > > > > >if > > > > >> >you> > > > >> >> > are a client then you must have right to know the truth > > or > > > > >call an> > > > >> >> > astrologer in the consumer forum.> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > At the time of formulating the astrological principles > in > > > early> > > > >> >> > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living > being > > > has> > > > >> >> > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. > > This > > > > >> >religious> > > > >> >> > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called planet > > > (Sun, > > > > >> >Moon,> > > > >> >> > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those > days > > > only > > > > >> >sages> > > > >> >> > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. Thus > > > after> > > > >> >> > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the > skill > > > to > > > > >> >predict> > > > >> >> > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so-> > called > > > > >> >grabbing> > > > >> >> > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and > > Ketu.> > > > >> >> > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse > and > > its> > > > >> >> > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer > > > > >donations > > > > >> >etc.> > > > >> >> > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, > > which > > > is > > > > >> >still> > > > >> >> > being followed. It was also religious concept that fate > > of > > > > >> >everybody> > > > >> >> > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this > > > > >situation, > > > > >> >it> > > > >> >> > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to predict > > the > > > > >fate > > > > >> >of> > > > >> >> > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not > predict > > > the > > > > >> >fate of> > > > >> >> > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to formulate > > > various> > > > >> >> > astrological principles on the basis of the then > > knowledge > > > of > > > > >> >sages> > > > >> >> > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. > > These > > > > >> >principles> > > > >> >> > were the key factors for deciding the fate.> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was > never > > > > >> >percolated> > > > >> >> > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard > barrier > > to > > > > >learn> > > > >> >> > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these > > > principles > > > > >were> > > > >> >> > spread to other civilisation and later on developed as > > > Western > > > > >> >system.> > > > >> >> > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. > One > > > group> > > > >> >> > belongs to astrologers who always try to support > > astrology > > > due > > > > >to> > > > >> >> > their business considerations (these astrologers always > > try > > > to > > > > >fit> > > > >> >> > past event very precisely within some astrological > > > principle > > > > >> >within a> > > > >> >> > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) and > > > faith > > > > >etc.,> > > > >> >> > but they are unable to predict any future event. > Because > > > > >> >astrological> > > > >> >> > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too > > > diabolical> > > > >> >> > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in > > > fluke) > > > > >may > > > > >> >come> > > > >> >> > true then they start to harp on the same prediction and > > > start > > > > >self> > > > >> >> > praising instead of applying the same socalled > principle > > on > > > > >other> > > > >> >> > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can > only > > > > >mislead,> > > > >> >> > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. You > > can > > > > >find > > > > >> >that> > > > >> >> > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other > > group > > > (say> > > > >> >> > scientist) try to raise some logical questions against > > > > >astrology. > > > > >> >But> > > > >> >> > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to what > > was > > > the > > > > >> >level> > > > >> >> > of information of sages about the Universe, who > developed> > > > >> >> > astrological principles in primitive age and what > > procedure > > > was> > > > >> >> > adopted to formulate various principles relating to > > > Lordship,> > > > >> >> > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated , Aspect, > > Vinshottary> > > > >> >> > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of principles > > then > > > > >> >following> > > > >> >> > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is given > in > > > > >> >subpara).> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs > among > > > seven> > > > >> >> > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ?> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above the > > > > >stationary> > > > >> >> > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on……….> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is > > enmity > > > and> > > > >> >> > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn are > > > enemy > > > > >of > > > > >> >each> > > > >> >> > other) ?> > > > >> >> > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and > > > demons > > > > >over> > > > >> >> > nector after sea-churning………..> > > > >> >> > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect > > > (full, > > > > >> >quarter> > > > >> >> > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full > aspect > > on > > > > >> >seventh> > > > >> >> > house) ?> > > > >> >> > Based on the position of army in the battle field………..> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets are > > > > >exalted > > > > >> >and> > > > >> >> > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 > deg. > > of > > > > >Aries> > > > >> >> > sign) ?> > > > >> >> > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when > > duration > > > of > > > > >the> > > > >> >> > day is more in comparison to night……> > > > >> >> > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most > powerful > > > and > > > > >hub > > > > >> >of> > > > >> >> > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha > > whereas > > > > >Venus > > > > >> >(a> > > > >> >> > small planet) has 20 years ?> > > > >> >> > Based on two triangles derived after working out the > > effect > > > of> > > > >> >> > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted…….> > > > >> >> > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various > > > constellations > > > > >> >between> > > > >> >> > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ?> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > Kratica was first constellation in Indian scriptures……….> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days of > a > > > week> > > > >> >> > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ?> > > > >> >> > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in > the > > > > >> >structure> > > > >> >> > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far away…..> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed retrograde > > > motion > > > > >of> > > > >> >> > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)?> > > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse…..> > > > >> >> > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, Ketu > > are > > > 180 > > > > >> >deg.> > > > >> >> > apart?> > > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse………..> > > > >> >> > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of > > eclipse ?> > > > >> >> > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation > month……….> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final > > question > > > as > > > > >to> > > > >> >> > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some > one > > > gave> > > > >> >> > answers to these questions then he will realize that > > entire> > > > >> >> > astrological principles are totally based on wrong > > concept > > > of> > > > >> >> > Universe.> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > Everybody may agree that every research is based on the > > then> > > > >> >> > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was > developed > > by > > > > >sage> > > > >> >> > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth > is > > in > > > the> > > > >> >> > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also > > believed > > > in > > > > >all> > > > >> >> > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may > > read > > > any > > > > >old> > > > >> >> > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, whereas > > Moon > > > is > > > > >> >beyond> > > > >> >> > Sun. All constellations are situated in between Mercury > > and > > > > >Moon.> > > > >> >> > You may be surprised to know that all astrological > > > principles > > > > >are> > > > >> >> > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self > > studying > > > > >> >astrology> > > > >> >> > since last 35 years and developed softwares to conclude > > > correct> > > > >> >> > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same > > > > >combination is> > > > >> >> > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh > > > logically > > > > >and> > > > >> >> > systematically over this subject and I find that > > Primitive > > > > >concept> > > > >> >> > (when astrology was developed) requires full > overhauling > > in > > > > >view > > > > >> >of> > > > >> >> > modern scientific astronomy, according to which > primitive > > > > >concept > > > > >> >of> > > > >> >> > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed.> > > > >> >> > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > > > > >> >astrology "Jyotish -> > > > >> >> > Kitna sahi kitna galat" in Hindi (330 pages). This book > > > > >contains > > > > >> >the> > > > >> >> > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these > principles > > on > > > > >the > > > > >> >basis> > > > >> >> > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads > our > > > > >sages to> > > > >> >> > formulate these principles. This book was also > published > > in > > > > >> >English> > > > >> >> > with the title "Astrology a science or myth" (450 > pages). > > > The > > > > >> >book is> > > > >> >> > being marketed in USA /UK etc.> > > > >> >> > Refer http://www.bokklubb en.no/samboweb/ produkt.do?> > > > >> >produktID=1759836> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > http://www.thebookp lace.com/ bookplace/ results-asp?> > AUB=sanat%> > > > >> >20kumar%> > > > >> >> > 20jain & TAG= & CID=> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > http://www.aggarwal overseas. com/booksdetail. aspx?> > > > >> >> > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, > > > Neptune > > > > >nor > > > > >> >they> > > > >> >> > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due > to > > > > >presence > > > > >> >of> > > > >> >> > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have > developed > > > the > > > > >> >concept> > > > >> >> > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11". It > was > > > > >> >mentioned in> > > > >> >> > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu > came > > > > >within 14> > > > >> >> > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full > > Moon). > > > But > > > > >> >nobody> > > > >> >> > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar > > eclipse > > > > >when > > > > >> >Sun,> > > > >> >> > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree > > > > >respectively > > > > >> >on> > > > >> >> > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when Sun, > > Moon > > > > >and > > > > >> >Ketu> > > > >> >> > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively > on > > 03-> > > 03-> > > > >> >1988 (> > > > >> >> > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that > Solar > > > > >eclipses> > > > >> >> > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu was > > > more > > > > >then> > > > >> >> > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu was > at > > > > >79.04 > > > > >> >deg.> > > > >> >> > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and Moon > > were > > > at > > > > >> >76.49> > > > >> >> > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 > (Rahu > > > was > > > > >15.14> > > > >> >> > deg. away).> > > > >> >> > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, > you > > > will > > > > >also> > > > >> >> > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse > > > occurred > > > > >at > > > > >> >the> > > > >> >> > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though > > it > > > was > > > > >not> > > > >> >> > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the > > basis > > > of > > > > >> >myth).> > > > >> >> > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar > eclipse, > > > when > > > > >Moon> > > > >> >> > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also be > > > there. > > > > >But > > > > >> >As> > > > >> >> > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on 12-> 11-> > > 1985 > > > > >> >and 3-> > > > >> >> > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there > were > > > full > > > > >> >solar> > > > >> >> > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 > > degree> > > > >> >> > respectively. You will agree that when there were full > > > solar > > > > >> >eclipses> > > > >> >> > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at 206 > > and > > > 166 > > > > >> >degree> > > > >> >> > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse may > > > > >possible.> > > > >> >> > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees in > > > > >almanac. > > > > >> >Thus> > > > >> >> > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees > > > > >respectively. > > > > >> >All> > > > >> >> > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to this > > > > >fundamental> > > > >> >> > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If > you > > > want > > > > >> >then I> > > > >> >> > can give many more examples and very simple method of > > > > >detecting > > > > >> >them.> > > > >> >> > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a > > > science > > > > >but > > > > >> >in> > > > >> >> > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of > > > astronomy +> > > > >> >> > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, > > > psychology> > > > >> >> > (recently discovered and it was not known in primitive > > age) > > > > >> >played an> > > > >> >> > important role in handling a person by the astrologer > due > > > to > > > > >> >immense> > > > >> >> > faith over astrology+astrologe r hence predictive > > astrology > > > > >> >appears to> > > > >> >> > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You > will > > > also > > > > >> >agree> > > > >> >> > with the above observation after going through my > original> > > > >> >> > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre-> > > decided > > > > >as > > > > >> >was> > > > >> >> > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why we > > may > > > try > > > > >to > > > > >> >do> > > > >> >> > some thing, because every thing will take place > according > > > to > > > > >pre-> > > > >> >> > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of > > > modifying > > > > >that > > > > >> >pre-> > > > >> >> > written destiny, because if we try to change only our > > fate, > > > > >even > > > > >> >then> > > > >> >> > all attached happening will automatically change > creating > > a > > > > >> >cascading> > > > >> >> > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written fate > of > > > every> > > > >> >> > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre-written > or > > > say > > > > >pre-> > > > >> >> > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because > > when > > > > >every > > > > >> >Tom,> > > > >> >> > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to > worship, > > > good > > > > >> >deed> > > > >> >> > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain > under > > > > >change. > > > > >> >You> > > > >> >> > will agree that astrology is totally based on > mathematical> > > > >> >> > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed > and > > > can > > > > >> >never> > > > >> >> > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart > > > cannot be> > > > >> >> > altered it means result of calculation or say > prediction > > is > > > > >also> > > > >> >> > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is > ever > > > > >> >prewritten)> > > > >> >> > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu etc. > > > because > > > > >in> > > > >> >> > that case, if you like to say, then future events will > be > > > > >altered > > > > >> >but> > > > >> >> > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked > > prediction > > > > >can be> > > > >> >> > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed > > transit > > > of> > > > >> >> > planets?> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > Those who think that astrology is a science may be rest > > > > >assured > > > > >> >that> > > > >> >> > actually predictive astrology is not a science at all. > > Only > > > > >> >astronomy> > > > >> >> > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) were > > used> > > > >> >> > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it > > appears > > > > >> >correct.> > > > >> >> > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is a > > > myth. > > > > >> >Still if> > > > >> >> > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you > contact > > > The > > > > >James> > > > >> >> > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US $1000000 > > > prize to> > > > >> >> > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His e-> > mail > > > and> > > > >> >> > website is jref@ <jref%40randi. org> and > > > > >> >http://www.randi. orgBecause modern> > > > >> >> > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are > being > > > used > > > > >to> > > > >> >> > spread this myth in the cover up of science with vested > > > > >business> > > > >> >> > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to fight > > > this > > > > >sort > > > > >> >of> > > > >> >> > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information in > > this > > > > >regard> > > > >> >> > and readers of the book are fully convinced that > astrology> > > > >> >> > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to > > > formulate> > > > >> >> > principles was neither logical nor based on correct > > > > >information of> > > > >> >> > Universe, solar system.> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and > > > facts, > > > > >data> > > > >> >> > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward > to > > > join > > > > >> >hands> > > > >> >> > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society).> > > > >> >> > Sanat Kumar Jain> > > > >> >> > Think differently, Think logically and Think > > scientifically> > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> >> > > > >> >>> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >> > > > >> >----------- --------- --------- -------> > > > >> >> > > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 5, 2008 Report Share Posted August 5, 2008 Dear Razdan Sahib, Namaskar! <This is for the simple reason that you and Mr Kaul seem to be obsessed with a hatred for Vedic Astrology and therefore not prepared to accept any point in its favour.> Razdan Sahib, yeh to mere saath sarasar nainsafi hai! Let me recount my own " sketch " as succinctly as possible! I have already explained it literally hundreds of times that I was not a born renegade but I am a " reformed drunkard " ! " Vedic astrology " has been in my genes, since I inherited it from my maternal grandfather! Then there is hardly any book on " phalita jyotisha " that I have not read! I was even an amateur astrologer for quite sometime! I had been to Brighu jyotihis and even Aruna Samhita-wala! My main interest in astronomy, both modern and sidhantic, was an offshoot of my efforts to prove that our ancestors like Varahamihira and Prithuyashas etc. were more competent than other astrologers of the globe! The more I started reading astronomical works the more I got disgusted with nirayana rashichakras---hundreds of them like Surya Sidhanta, Aryabhaa, Grahalaghava, Ramana, Fagan, Lahiri, Chitra (be under no confusion---Lahiri is entirely different from Chitra!), Kharegat, Yukteswhar, KP and Tilak and so on and so forth! Then we started having Hari (Chandra-Hari) and Chopra and Dheera etc.etc. All thee Ayanamsha have been so meticulously and assiduously " arrived at " that for a common man it is impossible not to get bewildered and fall in line! It appeared that if and when any prediction went bust, which was/is the rule rather than an exception, it was the easiest way out to blame the " Ayanamsha " instead of pondering on the " system " itself! (Sometimes it was/is " rectification " of birth chart as well!) Thus every unsuccessful jyotishi just started " manufacturing " a new Ayanamsha! Things got extremely complicated when overseas " Vamadevas " and " Theas " jumped into the fray! As you must be aware, if and when a " white man " or a " white woman " " embraces " or even as much as winks at anything in our " religion " we become delirious with joy and start crooning for him/her! Since it was being dinned into my ears---just as it was and is being diined into your ears----day in and day out that our Rishis like Parashara and Brighu etc. had nothing else to do except for predicting the future of every Tom, Dick and Harry through their Samhitas and Brihat and laghu Parasharis etc. I started going through our shastras like Bhagavata, Vishnu Purana etc. to learn astrology from those shastras! As all the puranas whether Shiva or Linga or Vishnudharmotara---in short all the eighteen of them---were/are talking of nothing but a seasonal year and months where Makar Sankranti was/is the name of the shortest day of the year and Mesha Sankranti the day when they day is equal to night it means they are all talking of a Sayana Rashichakra! These Puranas thus list all the twelve Rashis but they are all sayana! So I became a Sayana jyotishi---and started crying from housetops through my " Shri Krishen Universal Ephemeris and Panchanga " right from 1996 to 2001 and even later for a couple of years---that only Sayana was the real predictive system as per all our shastras, inlcuding the Vedas. I, therefore, thought that we could call " Sayana astrology " as the real " Vedic astrology " Thus that was the turning point, what you call my " hatred for astrology " ! It started because we, i.e. all the Hindus---including you, my fellow KP!---were/are celebrating all our festivals and muhurtas on wrong days because of this nirayana mess like Lahiri and Raman and Fagan etc. ! Being under the impression at that stage that the Surya Sidhanta was a real revelation of Bhagwan Surya, I also clubbed the starting point of Ashvini nakshatra with the Mesha-arambha bindu i.e. the Vernal Equinox, exactly as Maya had done! Being fortified thus with that " knowledge " from the Puranas etc. I proceeded to demolish the theory of Dr. Meghnad Saha and other members of the Saha Calendar Reform Committee (1955) besides hundreds of other scholars that Mesha, Vrisha etc. Rashis had been imported from Greece and they were not an Indigenous product! How could those Rashis be " imports " since I had been able to " see " them in Puranas myself, even if they were Sayana! That meant that though we were celebrating all our festivals on wrong days as we were celebrating them in Lahiri rashis instead of Sayana, but the Rashis were very much there! It was here that I got caught on the wrong foot! At that time, I was under the impression that the Vedas and the Vedanga Jyotisha etc. like the puranas, also must be talking of sayana Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis since they were talking of seasonal months and years! And to confirm that first hand, I re-visted all the Vedas--all the four of them---besides the Brahmanas and Upanishadas etc. My studies included Rik Jyotisham and Yajur Jyotisham etc. etc. Lo and behold! to my own amazment, there was no mention of any Mesha, Vrisha etc. rashis even by mistake in any of the Vedas or the Vedanga Jyotisha! Same was the case about planets like Mangal, Shani etc. They were conspicuous by their absence from all the Vedic literature! No mention of Rahu not to speak of Kethu! In fact, on second readings, I found that there was no mention of any Rashi nor any planets like Mangal, Budha, Shukra and Shani etc. in any of the works of the Pancha-Sidhantika! Only the Surya Sidhanta by Maya (who was actually a mlechha as per his own " confessions " ) discussed them for the first time in any of the " indigenous " astronomical literature! I got real mad! For quite sometime, it was impossible for me to reconcile with the situation that there were no Rashis in the Vedas no Mangal, Shani etc. planets there nor in any of the real indigenous astronomical literature!! It meant that all the big names like ...(you know all of them, so why name them!)were misleading us whey they said they were practising " Vedic astrology " . They were telling a lie -- all of them! Rest in next post--- " pajital " as they say in Kashmiri! With regards, A K Kaul , " pnrazdan " <pnrazdan wrote: > > Dear Sanat, > While I read the mails on this forum occasionally, I donot find it > interesting enough to participate. This is for the simple reason that > you and Mr Kaul seem to be obsessed with a hatred for Vedic Astrology > and therefore not prepared to accept any point in its favour. Your > sole aim seems to denigrade this knowledge as forcefully and > unabashedly as you can. Ir is far from an open discussion that I > initially thought it would be. > > However, I donot blame you or Mr Kaul since these are ones > perceptions and quite often one doesn't like to change these. > I hold on to Vedic Astrology because when I studied it as a > knowledge, I did find a pattern in its readings of human behaviour > and predictive astrology and once it does so, it comes into the realm > of analytics, predictive modelling, inductive knowledge and > mathematical relationships. That it is not developed to the extent of > a fool proof accuracy as yet, is something every astrologist is > striving to find out. Now if we ignore this fact and try to find > small and extraneous points like whether it is a science or not, or > argue on its being Vedic or not, or narrate individual experiences > etc., these are all pointless discussions and waste of time.Let us > call it by any name and accept it as a precious heritage. There is > both faith and knowledge quest involved in it. > > As I said before, there is no point in looking for a " scientific " > proof of VA, since it came much earlier to the so called science that > we know of. And then we donot try to prove certain established facts > like the existence of God or the sayings in Vedas etc. This is all > knowledge which came to us from our learned ancestors and which > cannot be measured by the modern day scientific thought. On the > contrary science will one day confirm the teaachings in these > scriptures when it develops holistically.. > > I therefore would like you to hold on to your views while I do to > mine. I spend my time fruitfully on two other VA sites that discuss > findings from different charts which is useful both to the person who > seeks help and also to astrologists who aspire to increase their > knowledge. There is nothing so comforting than a message from one who > confirms the findings and is ever grateful for the help that is given > without any money or ego. And that is the inspiration that keeps this > knowledge eternal. > Regards, > P.N.Razdan > > > , " sanat2221 " > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > Resp Kaul ji, > > Namaskar, > > Thanks for your encouraging msg. on my reply to Mr. Ron. Let us > see, > > what he and other members of the forum specially Sh. Razdan Ji, > > Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji want to say, who are silent > > since long. > > > > You may have observed that I am time and again reminding members of > > our forum to come forward for sharing their views, but > unfortunately > > they like to live in tunnel of faith without any fresh air of > logical > > approach. As I have already spent +35 years on astrology hence I > want > > to share my views. I am open to all and ready to discuss any point > to > > any length, to find some truth. Since last 5 years (after > publication > > of my hindi book), I have discussed with many astrologers but none > of > > them is able to answer basic and logical questions and privately > > admit that they also experienced many failures but due to business > > considerations and respect which they get from their clients, they > > are not willing to oppose astrology though they are convinced with > > the content my book that foundation is based on primitive > knowledge. > > But what we can do except either to learn something from the > > interaction or inform about the hollow astrological principals. > > > > I find that you are member of many forums hence I will like to > > request you that if some astrologers are interested in interaction > > then please invite him in our forum for open and uncensored > > interaction on predictive astrology. I find that many forums are > only > > busy in promoting their business and do not want any sincere > analysis. > > > > Thanks > > > > Yours truly, > > Sanat > > > > PS : Now each and every astrological book, magazine and astrologers > > are explaining (or befooling) that Rahu and Ketu are intersection > > point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though this was not the concept > > of our sages). Today on 1-8-8, there is total solar eclipse when > Sun > > and Moon may be at +105 degree but Ketu is at 115 degree. Now > > everybody knows that at the time of total solar eclipse Moon is > going > > to intersect the orbit of the Sun and during intersection Sun > happens > > to be on the point of intersection hence we can see total solar > > eclipse. Now my question to the members of the forum is that what > > Ketu (which is intersection point of orbits) is doing at 115 > degree, > > whereas it must be at 105 degree the location where Sun and Moon > are > > transiting. Thus can't member realize that position of these shadow > > planets in the horoscopes is wrong. (other such examples are also > > given in my blog `Astrology a science or myth') > > Hope to have some answer for further discussion. Members may > discuss > > personally to other astrologers or consult in other forums if they > do > > not have any answer. > > sanat > > > > > > > > > > , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Jain Sahib, > > > Excellent analysis! > > > Congratulations for dissecting such a terse subject > as " astrology " -- > > - > > > about which literally trillions of volumes have been written--- in > > > such a simple yet pithy manner! > > > Regards, > > > AKK > > > , " sanat2221 " > > > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Resp Ron, > > > > Thanks for your comments. > > > > At least thanks for admitting that Hindu (vedic) and western > and > > KP > > > > systems are not working correctly. Hence you have left them and > > > > adopted a new Khullar system. > > > > > > > > Khullar system is a mixture of Hindu and KP system; whereas KP > > > system > > > > is a mixture of Hindu and Western system. So indirectly Khullar > > > > system has adopted a way of old wine in new bottle. I have also > > > tried > > > > to fuse these both systems in many ways and result of fusion > may > > be > > > > seen in `Eskain horoscope' in file section. But again like head > > and > > > > tail of a coin, some prediction may right randomly but same > > > > combination is not working in another horoscope. It will take > > some > > > > more time to you to realize that this system is also not > working. > > > > Because basic building block of this system too, like all > others, > > > is > > > > based on sign, sign lord, cusp (which is a reverse copy of > > > > Vinshottary dasha " ), friendship, exalted etc. Until unless > these > > > > building blocks of predictive astrology may have some > scientific > > or > > > > logical theory behind them till then how you can say that some > > > thing > > > > can be predicted. Because only that event can be predicted > which > > is > > > > predestined and take your time to realize / think that even if > a > > > > single event of future of any one life is fixed then whole > > sequence > > > > of event of the life may automatically be fixed. This in turn > may > > > fix > > > > the sequence of event of other life. Thus whole set up will be > > > fixed. > > > > Then where is the use of knowing the future or where is the > scope > > > of > > > > amending any unpleasant event. > > > > > > > > You have mentioned an event of > > > > >>>>>>> one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw > > that > > > > she > > > > was likely to die the following day even though she had no known > > > > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long > > > > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared > > > > fine, but the following day she died as indicated.<<<<<<<<<<. > In > > > this > > > > connection I will like to say that every predictive system > either > > > it > > > > may be astrology or KP system, Western system, Magi system, Lal > > > > kitab, numerology, Terro card, palmistry, Nadi shastra, face > > > > reading, signature reading, Vaastu, and so on have so many > > stories > > > to > > > > tell but none of them is correct and all of them are > > > psychologically > > > > correct or randomly correct. Thus there is no logic in > believing > > > any > > > > random forecast to amend our plan, decision in any respect. > etc. > > If > > > > above story of death of mother is right in your opinion then > the > > > > combination in horoscope by which death may be known would have > > > been > > > > published in scientific journal and Khullar himself would have > > been > > > > appointed as chief boss of all Insurance companies to see as to > > > > whether life insurance of a person may be done or not. Thus you > > can > > > > see that only a single forecast based on combination of planets > > may > > > > lead to flow of money then what would happen if a system > > (khullar) > > > > would have been correct in many respect ie. It may tell about > > job, > > > > promotion, illness, health and so on. You may please intimate > the > > > > planetary cuspal combination of the horoscope by which death > was > > > > decoded for the benefit of the members of the forum, who may > take > > > > benefit of such a combination and get insured. Do not take it > > > > otherwise, I am seriously requesting you and if you don't have > > that > > > > combination then you may intimate some other combination, or > you > > > may > > > > check yourself the viability of the system and get rid off. > > > > > > > > Our basic question is still pending that so long any one is not > > > able > > > > to know that how basic building block of predictive astrology > > (sign > > > > lord etc. ) were formulated and whether procedure adopted has > > some > > > > scientific or logical approach till then we all are bound to > fall > > > in > > > > one or another trap. I am saying so that I find (not to say > after > > > how > > > > much labour) that all predictive principles were formulated on > > > > primitive myth, knowledge, tradition etc. and thus these > > principles > > > > have no logical or scientific support in view of modern > > knowledge. > > > If > > > > Hindu (so called vedic) astrology would have been correct then > > > what > > > > was the need to modify it as western and in turn as KP system > > and > > > in > > > > turn as Khullar system and what was the need to create so many > > > other > > > > systems like palmistry etc. It is not for improving an existing > > > > system, otherwise all previous systems would have been buried > and > > > > some new correct system would have been survived and in turn > > every > > > > one would have been realized as to how our ole astrologer were > > > wrong. > > > > But you can see that every system is going on, because every > > system > > > > has some business and followers. But you are right that after > > > > realizing some mistake you have jumped to some new system and > it > > is > > > > correct way of analyzing a system, because you may not be a > > > > practitioner astrologer. Otherwise you may have stick to any > one > > > > system and anyhow support that system like many astrologers. > > > > > > > > Thus you were initially right when you think : > > > > >>>>>>> Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful > > > about > > > > the > > > > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system. > > > > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions, > > > > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully > > > > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any > > > > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct > > > > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led > > > > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting > > > > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the > > > > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me > > > > eager see why they were successful.<<<< > > > > and now no need to go for blind chart, you may check and > announce > > > > when Osama will die or likewise some other definite prediction > > > about > > > > any one in the world and continue to serve many Govt. > > > > > > > > Hope to receive some tested principles of khullar for definite > > > > prediction, which may not have some psychological mixture for > the > > > > larger benefit of the members. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Yours truly, > > > > Sanat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rongaunt@ au " > > > > <rongaunt@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Sanat, > > > > > > > > > > I respond to the extracted part of your message where you say: > > > > > > > > > > 'So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must > > > > > find out the procedure as to how all basic principles were > > > > > formulated and is their any scientific logic (in view of > modern > > > > > knowledge) or not.' > > > > > > > > > > Now this is a most scientific approach you have taken!! You > > have > > > > > obviously already taken the stance that Mr Khullar's work is > > > > > bogus or you would not say 'falling into another trap by > > > > > Khullar'. > > > > > > > > > > I have serious doubts that you have studied his work at all, > > > > > never mind being intimately aquatinted with it. So your > > > > > unfounded prejudice for a scientific observer is obvious for > all > > > > > to see, and is clearly hypocritical if you have not studied > the > > > > > subject. I think most would agree your approach here at > least > > is > > > > > MOST UNSCIENTIFIC. > > > > > > > > > > For your information the Khullar system is by far the most > > > > > scientific of all astrology I have come across. Mr Khullar > > > > > examined in detail both Western and Hindu astrology. He took > > > > > much from the traditions of the Hindus, and from Nadi > astrology. > > > > > He went right to the source of their ideas and worked out > > > > > exactly why they were quoting certain important slokas. He > > > > > then incorporated these ideas into a major advancement on the > KP > > > > > system using cuspal interlinks. > > > > > > > > > > I personally gave up believing authors have all (or even) > some > > of > > > > > the answers all of the time, so I thoroughly check everything > > > > > stated. If I find a system not working as stated even once > I > > > > > start having reservations. When I see it doesn't work quite > a > > > > > few times I discard it. I have not been able to do this with > > > > > the Khullar system because it does work. > > > > > > > > > > Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful about > the > > > > > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system. > > > > > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical > positions, > > > > > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had > unsuccessfully > > > > > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any > > > > > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct > > > > > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being > led > > > > > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting > > > > > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the > > > > > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me > > > > > eager see why they were successful. > > > > > > > > > > I think any experienced astrologer would agree that even if > you > > > > > ask a number of astrologers - all following the same system - > > > > > to assess or predict for an event they will invariably all > come > > > > > up with a different answer. > > > > > > > > > > This does not happen in KCIL because all charts are rectified > by > > > > > strict criteria, and invariably all students come up with the > > > > > same rectified chart. They all assess the event to get the > > > > > same answer because the cuspal interlinks are specific to the > > > > > chart and the rules are clearly laid down. This is > extremely > > > > > scientific astrology. > > > > > > > > > > Apart from success in Blind Charts there has been extremely > good > > > > > predictions ie births to the day and a narrow time frame. > Also > > > > > one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw that > she > > > > > was likely to die the following day even though she had no > known > > > > > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long > > > > > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared > > > > > fine, but the following day she died as indicated. How > many > > > > > astrologers using other systems would be sufficiently > confident > > > > > to do this? > > > > > > > > > > We have seen other things which validate the system, such as > > > > > Mr Khullar declaring that a certain person could not have been > > > > > born in a certain part of city because the events of the life > > and > > > > > family connections did not line up in regard to the relevant > > > > > house cusps. He then stated where the person was likely to > > have > > > > > been born. Checking with the native the position chosen was > > > > > almost spot on. There are many other reasons that indicate > > > > > that the system does work. > > > > > > > > > > So Sanat, first study this system in detail then pronounce on > > > > > it, that is the truly scientific way. Your opinion may then > > > > > carry some weight but until then it is difficult for anyone to > > > > > take your opinions (at least on this matter) seriously. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ron Gaunt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:13:14 -0000, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >Dear Ron, > > > > > >Welcome in the forum for your first msg. > > > > > >You have good knowledge of astrology, still you are not > > > convinced > > > > > >with any system and advocating an another Khullar system. I > am > > > > > >reproducing your stand > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>Again most do not realise that it is possible to see > > > > anything > > > > > >and everything you want to see after the event with ANY and > > > EVERY > > > > > >system, due to the enormous number of permutations. > > > > > >I think I have looked at just about every astrological > system > > > and > > > > > >method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, > and > > > > others > > > > > >do not give consistently good results. <<<<<<<<<<< > > > > > > > > > > > >against you. Because it makes no difference as to whether we > > are > > > > > >linking any past event with some principles or we are > linking > > > > future > > > > > >prediction with our psychology. If I will say your next > month > > is > > > > not > > > > > >good and you have faith on predictive astrology, then every > > > > > >psychological odd in next month will be linked with this > > > > prediction > > > > > >and in sub-conscious mind you may bent upon to think that > > > > astrology > > > > > >is correct. So it has no relevancy at all. > > > > > > > > > > > >We in India are being befooled and cheated by astrologers > > since > > > > 2000 > > > > > >years without knowing that sign was devised by Greeks and > > > adopted > > > > by > > > > > >us without any religious support. Because mass population > > always > > > > > >remains uneducated and educated lot are being lured by crowd > > of > > > > heads > > > > > >on shoulders (without knowing that their heads are empty in > > this > > > > > >respect) who follows some traditions. Cunning or ignorant > > > > astrologers > > > > > >after reading some latest books on astrology, full with > praise > > > of > > > > > >sages and latest data of solar system thinks (and propagate) > > > that > > > > our > > > > > >sages were well known with modern data. Thus they are able > to > > > > befool > > > > > >ignorant public in the name of Ved, Sage, Myth and so on > with > > > the > > > > > >help of Media and publicity. > > > > > > > > > > > >Bare fact is this that our sages were very logical and open > to > > > all > > > > > >sort of logical knowledge (which can not be questioned). > They > > > were > > > > > >very clear when they appreciate the knowledge of Greeks > > because > > > > they > > > > > >were of the opinion " tamso ma jyotirgamay " means we must go > > > ahead > > > > > >towards knowledge from ignorance. For the purpose of > knowledge > > > > they > > > > > >were following " Vasudevam kutumbkam " means whole world is a > > > > family. > > > > > >Thus they adopted sign system and other knowledge from > Greeks > > > and > > > > > >mixed it with our constellational system and religious > concept > > > of > > > > > >formation of universe. Thus our sages formulated basic > > > principles > > > > > >like sign lord, aspect, friendship, exalted, dasha and so on > > > > (refer > > > > > >my book in Hindi or in English for detailed procedure etc.), > > by > > > > which > > > > > >they were able to forecast some thing which happens to be > true > > > > > >(psychologically, and this phenomena was not known till 18th > > > > > >century). Thus Greeks then Romans adopted these principles > and > > > > > >subsequently slightly modified (aspect) as Western system, > > > whereas > > > > > >sign lord etc are same. As we Indians are not aware that > > concept > > > > of > > > > > >sign belongs to Greek / Babylonia likewise Western countries > > are > > > > not > > > > > >aware that sign lord etc. principles were formulated by our > > > sages > > > > on > > > > > >the basis of religious myth that Earth is stationary, Sun is > > > > nearer > > > > > >then Moon, all constellation are just above Moon and so on. > In > > > > this > > > > > >way where we Indians are being befooled in the name of Ved, > > > sages; > > > > > >likewise western countries were being befooled that > predictive > > > > > >principals were formulated by Ptolemy and now everyone is > > after > > > > > >socalled " Vedic astrology " without knowing that there is no > > > > > >predictive astrology in Ved. Thus predictive astrology is > > merely > > > a > > > > > >psychological game like magic. We must enjoy this game but > > must > > > > not > > > > > >be lured like a fool who may be lured by creation of > currency > > > > notes > > > > > >from a box by a magician and left his job in the hope to > > create > > > > note > > > > > >from that box. > > > > > > > > > > > >So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you > must > > > find > > > > > >out the procedure as to how all basic principles were > > formulated > > > > and > > > > > >is their any scientific logic (in view of modern knowledge) > or > > > > not. > > > > > > > > > > > >Some points were discussed in brief (refer SOA_______ files > in > > > > file > > > > > >section) because followers of astrology, could not stand > after > > > > > >raising very simple arguments and further discussion could > not > > > be > > > > > >done. I hope that after +35 years of experience you may like > > to > > > > > >discuss on any point. > > > > > > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > > >Yours truly, > > > > > >Sanat > > > > > > > > > > > >PS: Sh. Razdan Ji, Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji may > > > please > > > > > >come forward with reply on my comments. Silence is not a > > > solution. > > > > > >Silently reading is also not a solution. When we are in a > > forum > > > > then > > > > > >either we must educate other members or may improve our > > > knowledge. > > > > > >Remaining " as it is " is not a good sign. For improvement we > > must > > > > have > > > > > >inquisitive mind. I am ready to learn from expert > astrologers > > > but > > > > not > > > > > >as blind supporter. If Astrology is science then it must > cross > > > all > > > > > >questions and must have logical answers to all sort of doubt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rongaunt@ au " > > > > > ><rongaunt@> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Friends, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I am new to the forum, but have a fair knowledge of > > astrology > > > as > > > > > >> it has been my hobby for over 35 years. I am all for > > > > > >> questioning the validity of the subject, as I suspect that > > many > > > > > >> many astrologers, are very gullible because they have not > > > > > >> studied deeply enough to realise that the permutations in > > > > > >> astrology run into the millions. Again most do not > realise > > > that > > > > > >> it is possible to see anything and everything you want to > see > > > > > >> after the event with ANY and EVERY system, due to the > > enormous > > > > > >> number of permutations. And f course, very few if any, go > > on > > > to > > > > > >> achieve good predictions. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I think I have looked at just about every astrological > > system > > > and > > > > > >> method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, > > and > > > > > >> others do not give consistently good results. It has been > > my > > > aim > > > > > >> to find one that does work, and to this end I started > > possibly > > > > > >> the first of the regulat Blind Charts tests on the Web > many > > > years > > > > > >> ago. I hoped to find a system that really did work. It > is > > > > > >> only in the last year or so that I have found such a > system, > > > > > >> which drew my attention because the students of a > particular > > > > > >> astrological institution kept getting correct results in > our > > > > > >> Blind Chart tests. The system is the Khullar method of > > > Cuspal > > > > > >> Interlinks. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Anyhow my intention in writing this mail was to point out > > that > > > it > > > > > >> is not very practical to furnish personal data and then > > predict > > > > > >> from it, because the waiting time for the prediction means > > > > > >> everyone will lose interest long before the event does or > > does > > > > > >> not happen. It would be much better to get members to > > furnish > > > > > >> data, to include some events and family birthdates in > order > > to > > > be > > > > > >> able to rectify the chart, and give say four options which > > > > > >> participants will check to find out which of these options > > > > > >> happened on a given date. This is real life astrology > and > > is > > > > > >> almost as good as future prediction, because you use > exactly > > > the > > > > > >> same methods on an unknown event. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Ron Gaunt > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:44:09 -0000, you wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> >Shri Jagannathan Kapisthalamji, > > > > > >> >Namaskar! > > > > > >> ><If you can furnish your date of birth,place and time of > > > birth > > > > let > > > > > >us > > > > > >> >try some astrological predictions and see whether they > > work.?> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >My late maternal grandfather used to make predictions > from > > > > > >horoscopes > > > > > >> >prepared from Grahalaghava panchangas, which were > anything > > > but > > > > > >> >correct, and that was admitted by the Panchanga makers > > > > > >themselves! > > > > > >> >Quite often his predictions proved correct! > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >Does that prove that any predictive gimmicks are either > > > > scientific > > > > > >or > > > > > >> >Vedic? No. That cannot be so, since Grahalaghava was/is > > > > neither a > > > > > >> >Vedic work nor a scientific one! > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >Thus even if some astrologers are able to make some > correct > > > > > >> >predictions about some one sometimes, that never > > means/proves > > > > that > > > > > >> >those predictions were either on a scientific basis or as > > per > > > > the > > > > > >> >Vedic lore! All that proves is that sometimes some guess > > > works > > > > do > > > > > >> >prove correct and that is why more often than not, > correct > > > > > >preictions > > > > > >> >are made only from incorrect data, whether birth > > particulars > > > or > > > > > >> >astronomical data, since Lahiri Ayanamsha in itself is > the > > > most > > > > > >> >monstrous ayanamsha that could ever have been invented by > > any > > > > > >> >charlatan!! And it is on the basis of only that ayanamsha > > > that > > > > > >ninety- > > > > > >> >nine per cent predictions are made these days! > > > > > >> >With regards, > > > > > >> >A K Kaul > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > , " Jagannathan > > > > > >Kapisthalam " > > > > > >> ><jagannathankr@> wrote: > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> Dear Sir, > > > > > >> >> Your article is quite interesting.If you can furnish > your > > > > date of > > > > > >> >> birth,place and time of birth let us try some > > astrological > > > > > >> >predictions and > > > > > >> >> see whether they work.?This is only out of academic > > > interest. > > > > > >> >> Regards, > > > > > >> >> jagannathan. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Resp. members, > > > > > >> >> > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of > > > > discussion > > > > > >on > > > > > >> >> > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am > > > enclosing > > > > my > > > > > >old > > > > > >> >> > blog placed in the file section so that members may > > read > > > it > > > > and > > > > > >> >> > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not > > > > reacting > > > > > >> >with a > > > > > >> >> > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though > > > they > > > > are > > > > > >> >> > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can > > > > interact > > > > > >on > > > > > >> >my > > > > > >> >> > email sanatkumar_jain@ <sanatkumar_jain% > > 40rediffmail.com> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > So far members have observed that supporters of > > astrology > > > > are > > > > > >> >either > > > > > >> >> > interested in by passing the main point or they have > > only > > > > > >faith on > > > > > >> >> > astrology without any scientific or logical support > to > > > any > > > > > >> >concept. > > > > > >> >> > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing > others > > > to > > > > > >follow > > > > > >> >the > > > > > >> >> > path of ignorance. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am > > > always > > > > > >> >interested > > > > > >> >> > in looking deep. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Thanks > > > > > >> >> > Sanat > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > > > > >> >> > Will you please like to ponder and instead of > sticking > > to > > > > some > > > > > >> >> > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not > > > > studied > > > > > >in > > > > > >> >depth > > > > > >> >> > but you only have faith, because you have been > informed > > > > like > > > > > >> >this. So > > > > > >> >> > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself > > as > > > to > > > > > >> >whether > > > > > >> >> > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of > > > > science > > > > > >due > > > > > >> >to > > > > > >> >> > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the > > > sentiments > > > > of > > > > > >> >> > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I > > > only > > > > > >want to > > > > > >> >> > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then > > let > > > > us > > > > > >> >examine > > > > > >> >> > it and then there will be no question of hurting, > > because > > > > you > > > > > >have > > > > > >> >> > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you > > are > > > > > >standing > > > > > >> >in > > > > > >> >> > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which > > has > > > > been > > > > > >> >> > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that > > astrology > > > > is a > > > > > >> >> > science without knowing the story of other side. I > can > > > > > >understand > > > > > >> >the > > > > > >> >> > problem of astrologer that they will loose their > > business > > > > but > > > > > >if > > > > > >> >you > > > > > >> >> > are a client then you must have right to know the > truth > > > or > > > > > >call an > > > > > >> >> > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > At the time of formulating the astrological > principles > > in > > > > early > > > > > >> >> > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living > > being > > > > has > > > > > >> >> > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. > > > This > > > > > >> >religious > > > > > >> >> > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called > planet > > > > (Sun, > > > > > >> >Moon, > > > > > >> >> > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those > > days > > > > only > > > > > >> >sages > > > > > >> >> > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. > Thus > > > > after > > > > > >> >> > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the > > skill > > > > to > > > > > >> >predict > > > > > >> >> > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so- > > > called > > > > > >> >grabbing > > > > > >> >> > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and > > > Ketu. > > > > > >> >> > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse > > and > > > its > > > > > >> >> > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer > > > > > >donations > > > > > >> >etc. > > > > > >> >> > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, > > > which > > > > is > > > > > >> >still > > > > > >> >> > being followed. It was also religious concept that > fate > > > of > > > > > >> >everybody > > > > > >> >> > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this > > > > > >situation, > > > > > >> >it > > > > > >> >> > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to > predict > > > the > > > > > >fate > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not > > predict > > > > the > > > > > >> >fate of > > > > > >> >> > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to > formulate > > > > various > > > > > >> >> > astrological principles on the basis of the then > > > knowledge > > > > of > > > > > >> >sages > > > > > >> >> > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. > > > These > > > > > >> >principles > > > > > >> >> > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was > > never > > > > > >> >percolated > > > > > >> >> > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard > > barrier > > > to > > > > > >learn > > > > > >> >> > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these > > > > principles > > > > > >were > > > > > >> >> > spread to other civilisation and later on developed > as > > > > Western > > > > > >> >system. > > > > > >> >> > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. > > One > > > > group > > > > > >> >> > belongs to astrologers who always try to support > > > astrology > > > > due > > > > > >to > > > > > >> >> > their business considerations (these astrologers > always > > > try > > > > to > > > > > >fit > > > > > >> >> > past event very precisely within some astrological > > > > principle > > > > > >> >within a > > > > > >> >> > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) > and > > > > faith > > > > > >etc., > > > > > >> >> > but they are unable to predict any future event. > > Because > > > > > >> >astrological > > > > > >> >> > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too > > > > diabolical > > > > > >> >> > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in > > > > fluke) > > > > > >may > > > > > >> >come > > > > > >> >> > true then they start to harp on the same prediction > and > > > > start > > > > > >self > > > > > >> >> > praising instead of applying the same socalled > > principle > > > on > > > > > >other > > > > > >> >> > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can > > only > > > > > >mislead, > > > > > >> >> > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. > You > > > can > > > > > >find > > > > > >> >that > > > > > >> >> > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other > > > group > > > > (say > > > > > >> >> > scientist) try to raise some logical questions > against > > > > > >astrology. > > > > > >> >But > > > > > >> >> > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to > what > > > was > > > > the > > > > > >> >level > > > > > >> >> > of information of sages about the Universe, who > > developed > > > > > >> >> > astrological principles in primitive age and what > > > procedure > > > > was > > > > > >> >> > adopted to formulate various principles relating to > > > > Lordship, > > > > > >> >> > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, > > > Vinshottary > > > > > >> >> > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of > principles > > > then > > > > > >> >following > > > > > >> >> > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is > given > > in > > > > > >> >subpara). > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs > > among > > > > seven > > > > > >> >> > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above > the > > > > > >stationary > > > > > >> >> > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is > > > enmity > > > > and > > > > > >> >> > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn > are > > > > enemy > > > > > >of > > > > > >> >each > > > > > >> >> > other) ? > > > > > >> >> > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and > > > > demons > > > > > >over > > > > > >> >> > nector after sea-churning……….. > > > > > >> >> > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect > > > > (full, > > > > > >> >quarter > > > > > >> >> > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full > > aspect > > > on > > > > > >> >seventh > > > > > >> >> > house) ? > > > > > >> >> > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets > are > > > > > >exalted > > > > > >> >and > > > > > >> >> > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 > > deg. > > > of > > > > > >Aries > > > > > >> >> > sign) ? > > > > > >> >> > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when > > > duration > > > > of > > > > > >the > > > > > >> >> > day is more in comparison to night…… > > > > > >> >> > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most > > powerful > > > > and > > > > > >hub > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha > > > whereas > > > > > >Venus > > > > > >> >(a > > > > > >> >> > small planet) has 20 years ? > > > > > >> >> > Based on two triangles derived after working out the > > > effect > > > > of > > > > > >> >> > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > > > > >> >> > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various > > > > constellations > > > > > >> >between > > > > > >> >> > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Kratica was first constellation in Indian > scriptures………. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days > of > > a > > > > week > > > > > >> >> > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > > > > >> >> > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in > > the > > > > > >> >structure > > > > > >> >> > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far > away….. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed > retrograde > > > > motion > > > > > >of > > > > > >> >> > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > > > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > > > > >> >> > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, > Ketu > > > are > > > > 180 > > > > > >> >deg. > > > > > >> >> > apart? > > > > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > > > > >> >> > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of > > > eclipse ? > > > > > >> >> > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation > > month………. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final > > > question > > > > as > > > > > >to > > > > > >> >> > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some > > one > > > > gave > > > > > >> >> > answers to these questions then he will realize that > > > entire > > > > > >> >> > astrological principles are totally based on wrong > > > concept > > > > of > > > > > >> >> > Universe. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Everybody may agree that every research is based on > the > > > then > > > > > >> >> > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was > > developed > > > by > > > > > >sage > > > > > >> >> > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth > > is > > > in > > > > the > > > > > >> >> > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also > > > believed > > > > in > > > > > >all > > > > > >> >> > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may > > > read > > > > any > > > > > >old > > > > > >> >> > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, > whereas > > > Moon > > > > is > > > > > >> >beyond > > > > > >> >> > Sun. All constellations are situated in between > Mercury > > > and > > > > > >Moon. > > > > > >> >> > You may be surprised to know that all astrological > > > > principles > > > > > >are > > > > > >> >> > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self > > > studying > > > > > >> >astrology > > > > > >> >> > since last 35 years and developed softwares to > conclude > > > > correct > > > > > >> >> > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same > > > > > >combination is > > > > > >> >> > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh > > > > logically > > > > > >and > > > > > >> >> > systematically over this subject and I find that > > > Primitive > > > > > >concept > > > > > >> >> > (when astrology was developed) requires full > > overhauling > > > in > > > > > >view > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > modern scientific astronomy, according to which > > primitive > > > > > >concept > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > > > > >> >> > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > > > > > >> >astrology " Jyotish - > > > > > >> >> > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This > book > > > > > >contains > > > > > >> >the > > > > > >> >> > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these > > principles > > > on > > > > > >the > > > > > >> >basis > > > > > >> >> > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads > > our > > > > > >sages to > > > > > >> >> > formulate these principles. This book was also > > published > > > in > > > > > >> >English > > > > > >> >> > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 > > pages). > > > > The > > > > > >> >book is > > > > > >> >> > being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > > > > >> >> > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > > > > > >> >produktID=1759836 > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp? > > > AUB=sanat% > > > > > >> >20kumar% > > > > > >> >> > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > > > > >> >> > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, > > > > Neptune > > > > > >nor > > > > > >> >they > > > > > >> >> > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due > > to > > > > > >presence > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have > > developed > > > > the > > > > > >> >concept > > > > > >> >> > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It > > was > > > > > >> >mentioned in > > > > > >> >> > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu > > came > > > > > >within 14 > > > > > >> >> > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full > > > Moon). > > > > But > > > > > >> >nobody > > > > > >> >> > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar > > > eclipse > > > > > >when > > > > > >> >Sun, > > > > > >> >> > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree > > > > > >respectively > > > > > >> >on > > > > > >> >> > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when > Sun, > > > Moon > > > > > >and > > > > > >> >Ketu > > > > > >> >> > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively > > on > > > 03- > > > > 03- > > > > > >> >1988 ( > > > > > >> >> > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that > > Solar > > > > > >eclipses > > > > > >> >> > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu > was > > > > more > > > > > >then > > > > > >> >> > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu > was > > at > > > > > >79.04 > > > > > >> >deg. > > > > > >> >> > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and > Moon > > > were > > > > at > > > > > >> >76.49 > > > > > >> >> > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 > > (Rahu > > > > was > > > > > >15.14 > > > > > >> >> > deg. away). > > > > > >> >> > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, > > you > > > > will > > > > > >also > > > > > >> >> > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse > > > > occurred > > > > > >at > > > > > >> >the > > > > > >> >> > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon > (though > > > it > > > > was > > > > > >not > > > > > >> >> > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the > > > basis > > > > of > > > > > >> >myth). > > > > > >> >> > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar > > eclipse, > > > > when > > > > > >Moon > > > > > >> >> > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also > be > > > > there. > > > > > >But > > > > > >> >As > > > > > >> >> > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on > 12- > > 11- > > > > 1985 > > > > > >> >and 3- > > > > > >> >> > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there > > were > > > > full > > > > > >> >solar > > > > > >> >> > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 > > > degree > > > > > >> >> > respectively. You will agree that when there were > full > > > > solar > > > > > >> >eclipses > > > > > >> >> > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at > 206 > > > and > > > > 166 > > > > > >> >degree > > > > > >> >> > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse > may > > > > > >possible. > > > > > >> >> > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees > in > > > > > >almanac. > > > > > >> >Thus > > > > > >> >> > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees > > > > > >respectively. > > > > > >> >All > > > > > >> >> > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to > this > > > > > >fundamental > > > > > >> >> > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If > > you > > > > want > > > > > >> >then I > > > > > >> >> > can give many more examples and very simple method of > > > > > >detecting > > > > > >> >them. > > > > > >> >> > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a > > > > science > > > > > >but > > > > > >> >in > > > > > >> >> > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of > > > > astronomy + > > > > > >> >> > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, > > > > psychology > > > > > >> >> > (recently discovered and it was not known in > primitive > > > age) > > > > > >> >played an > > > > > >> >> > important role in handling a person by the astrologer > > due > > > > to > > > > > >> >immense > > > > > >> >> > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive > > > astrology > > > > > >> >appears to > > > > > >> >> > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You > > will > > > > also > > > > > >> >agree > > > > > >> >> > with the above observation after going through my > > original > > > > > >> >> > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre- > > > > decided > > > > > >as > > > > > >> >was > > > > > >> >> > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why > we > > > may > > > > try > > > > > >to > > > > > >> >do > > > > > >> >> > some thing, because every thing will take place > > according > > > > to > > > > > >pre- > > > > > >> >> > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of > > > > modifying > > > > > >that > > > > > >> >pre- > > > > > >> >> > written destiny, because if we try to change only our > > > fate, > > > > > >even > > > > > >> >then > > > > > >> >> > all attached happening will automatically change > > creating > > > a > > > > > >> >cascading > > > > > >> >> > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written > fate > > of > > > > every > > > > > >> >> > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre- > written > > or > > > > say > > > > > >pre- > > > > > >> >> > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because > > > when > > > > > >every > > > > > >> >Tom, > > > > > >> >> > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to > > worship, > > > > good > > > > > >> >deed > > > > > >> >> > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain > > under > > > > > >change. > > > > > >> >You > > > > > >> >> > will agree that astrology is totally based on > > mathematical > > > > > >> >> > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed > > and > > > > can > > > > > >> >never > > > > > >> >> > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart > > > > cannot be > > > > > >> >> > altered it means result of calculation or say > > prediction > > > is > > > > > >also > > > > > >> >> > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is > > ever > > > > > >> >prewritten) > > > > > >> >> > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu > etc. > > > > because > > > > > >in > > > > > >> >> > that case, if you like to say, then future events > will > > be > > > > > >altered > > > > > >> >but > > > > > >> >> > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked > > > prediction > > > > > >can be > > > > > >> >> > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed > > > transit > > > > of > > > > > >> >> > planets? > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Those who think that astrology is a science may be > rest > > > > > >assured > > > > > >> >that > > > > > >> >> > actually predictive astrology is not a science at > all. > > > Only > > > > > >> >astronomy > > > > > >> >> > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) > were > > > used > > > > > >> >> > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it > > > appears > > > > > >> >correct. > > > > > >> >> > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is > a > > > > myth. > > > > > >> >Still if > > > > > >> >> > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you > > contact > > > > The > > > > > >James > > > > > >> >> > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US > $1000000 > > > > prize to > > > > > >> >> > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His > e- > > > mail > > > > and > > > > > >> >> > website is jref@ <jref%40randi.org> and > > > > > >> >http://www.randi.orgBecause modern > > > > > >> >> > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are > > being > > > > used > > > > > >to > > > > > >> >> > spread this myth in the cover up of science with > vested > > > > > >business > > > > > >> >> > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to > fight > > > > this > > > > > >sort > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information > in > > > this > > > > > >regard > > > > > >> >> > and readers of the book are fully convinced that > > astrology > > > > > >> >> > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to > > > > formulate > > > > > >> >> > principles was neither logical nor based on correct > > > > > >information of > > > > > >> >> > Universe, solar system. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and > > > > facts, > > > > > >data > > > > > >> >> > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward > > to > > > > join > > > > > >> >hands > > > > > >> >> > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). > > > > > >> >> > Sanat Kumar Jain > > > > > >> >> > Think differently, Think logically and Think > > > scientifically > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >--- > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest guest Posted August 6, 2008 Report Share Posted August 6, 2008 Resp. Razdan Ji, Namaskar, Thanks for your msg. after a long time. I am taking some point raised by you. >>>>>>>>. Your sole aim seems to denigrade this knowledge as forcefully and unabashedly as you can.<<<< From which msg you find that I am denigrading astrology. If I am informing or asking as to how sign, signlord etc. were formulated (refer my first msg / blog " Astrology a science or myth')then it is not denigrading, or if I am saying that sign etc. are not in Ved then it is not denigrading (you can also refer in length reply of Sh Kaul ji), if I am asking as to why Ketu is 5 deg. away at the time of total eclipse, when astrologers are claiming that Rahu ketu are intersection point of orbits and so on ……… than how you can say I am denigrading astrology. If astrologers have no answer then it is their fault (though I have hinted below every question and detail is available in the book), who are exploiting public by claiming it science and have no logical answer. If you admit and promote the view that astrology (predictive) is not science then I will not ask any question. But you, like all astrologers have faith on astrology then please do not publicize it as a science. You can claim that it is our heritage, it is taken from ancestral, it is like God (no pujari of any temple of any religion is claiming that existence of God is Science, because business of pujaries are roaring but on the other hand business of astrologers are always in doldrums hence at one point of time they take shelter in faith and at another point of time they claim it as science yet another time they claim it as vedang etc….). But if astrologers will claim that it is science then I have right to question its validity as science that too after putting +35 years in astrology and writing two original books. You your-self admitting that >>>>>>>>. That it is not developed to the extent of a fool proof accuracy as yet, is something every astrologist is striving to find out. if we ignore this fact and try to find small and extraneous points like whether it is a science or not, or argue on its being Vedic or not, or narrate individual experiences etc., these are all pointless discussions and waste of time.<<<<<<<< so is it not a matter of concern that even after practicing astrology for +2000 years with lot of literature (old and new) supported by more then lakh astrologer in India, none of them is able to find a single I repeat single foolproof principle, and every astrologer is blindly supporting it or searching some way to get any prediction (north, KP, western, palmistry, nadi, …………… that to with applicability of various principles, yog, dasha and what not) and on every failure thinks or support that astrology is right astrologer may be wrong. I say why astrologer may be wrong if principle (or combination of principles) is right then result must be right. If result is wrong then why not we may search as to how basic astrological principles (like sign, signlord etc. ) were formulated. Is their any logic? But every one is consoling that a good astrologer can predict correctly and that good astrologer is no where in the world but he is living in his mind. You are discouraging personal experience. Yes you are right, but tell me where I say that my conclusion against astrology is based on my personal experience. Contrary to this you are supporting your personal experience like >>>>>>> I spend my time fruitfully on two other VA sites that discuss findings from different charts which is useful both to the person who seeks help and also to astrologists who aspire to increase their knowledge. <<<<<< Because an enquirer in a forum (there are so many forums ) get advice but how you can say that prediction is right. He is not going to furn up to say that prediction is wrong. So actually such interaction is not useful because every one is feeding prediction on the shoulder of faith lubricated with science and Ved word. If astrologer just predict with the saying that astrology is not in our ved and it is not scientific then astrologer will realize the reality. Thus actually there is no sense if we throw stones here and there. Let us not concerned with astrologers as to what they are doing. But if you really want to use your time and learn some correct concept then please read my blog " astrology a science or myth " and find out, ask in other forums, think, read about the answer as to how principles were formulated. Only then you can realize the hollow foundation of astrology. I am not asking to read my book but you find out the answer and then we will discuss. I think there is no harm. Thus we will be more useful to astrology to modify it correctly. If you intimate about the forums, astrologers, readers etc. then I will request them to join our forum for your support. Though out of 100 members I think 97 members are in your favour. But still you are not able to support your stand. Enjoy interaction, don't take it as a personal, it is only academic discussion and exchange of views. Please do not take shelter in silence zone. It is not going to serve any purpose. You (and other members also) must try your best to prove that astrology is vedic and scientific and for that you have to prove the scientific or vedic basis of basic principles of astrology. Thanks Yours truly, Sanat Gwalior 0751-2626868 PS: I find that we are now a group of 100 members in a very short time. I welcome all new members in the forum and invite them to take part in interaction instead of silently reading the msg. I want that our forum may be like a scattered family from Australia to USA, hence if any member is going to visit Gwalior then he can contact me for any help. So he can note down my ph. for future reference. Likewise other members may fill in their information for lending any help (if they want to do so) to other member of the forum. I am still waiting the reply as to why Ketu is being shown 5 deg. away in the horoscope at the time of total eclipse of 1-8-8. Though I have explained a little in my earlier msg. sanat , " pnrazdan " <pnrazdan wrote: > > Dear Sanat, > While I read the mails on this forum occasionally, I donot find it > interesting enough to participate. This is for the simple reason that > you and Mr Kaul seem to be obsessed with a hatred for Vedic Astrology > and therefore not prepared to accept any point in its favour. Your > sole aim seems to denigrade this knowledge as forcefully and > unabashedly as you can. Ir is far from an open discussion that I > initially thought it would be. > > However, I donot blame you or Mr Kaul since these are ones > perceptions and quite often one doesn't like to change these. > I hold on to Vedic Astrology because when I studied it as a > knowledge, I did find a pattern in its readings of human behaviour > and predictive astrology and once it does so, it comes into the realm > of analytics, predictive modelling, inductive knowledge and > mathematical relationships. That it is not developed to the extent of > a fool proof accuracy as yet, is something every astrologist is > striving to find out. Now if we ignore this fact and try to find > small and extraneous points like whether it is a science or not, or > argue on its being Vedic or not, or narrate individual experiences > etc., these are all pointless discussions and waste of time.Let us > call it by any name and accept it as a precious heritage. There is > both faith and knowledge quest involved in it. > > As I said before, there is no point in looking for a " scientific " > proof of VA, since it came much earlier to the so called science that > we know of. And then we donot try to prove certain established facts > like the existence of God or the sayings in Vedas etc. This is all > knowledge which came to us from our learned ancestors and which > cannot be measured by the modern day scientific thought. On the > contrary science will one day confirm the teaachings in these > scriptures when it develops holistically.. > > I therefore would like you to hold on to your views while I do to > mine. I spend my time fruitfully on two other VA sites that discuss > findings from different charts which is useful both to the person who > seeks help and also to astrologists who aspire to increase their > knowledge. There is nothing so comforting than a message from one who > confirms the findings and is ever grateful for the help that is given > without any money or ego. And that is the inspiration that keeps this > knowledge eternal. > Regards, > P.N.Razdan > > > , " sanat2221 " > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > Resp Kaul ji, > > Namaskar, > > Thanks for your encouraging msg. on my reply to Mr. Ron. Let us > see, > > what he and other members of the forum specially Sh. Razdan Ji, > > Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji want to say, who are silent > > since long. > > > > You may have observed that I am time and again reminding members of > > our forum to come forward for sharing their views, but > unfortunately > > they like to live in tunnel of faith without any fresh air of > logical > > approach. As I have already spent +35 years on astrology hence I > want > > to share my views. I am open to all and ready to discuss any point > to > > any length, to find some truth. Since last 5 years (after > publication > > of my hindi book), I have discussed with many astrologers but none > of > > them is able to answer basic and logical questions and privately > > admit that they also experienced many failures but due to business > > considerations and respect which they get from their clients, they > > are not willing to oppose astrology though they are convinced with > > the content my book that foundation is based on primitive > knowledge. > > But what we can do except either to learn something from the > > interaction or inform about the hollow astrological principals. > > > > I find that you are member of many forums hence I will like to > > request you that if some astrologers are interested in interaction > > then please invite him in our forum for open and uncensored > > interaction on predictive astrology. I find that many forums are > only > > busy in promoting their business and do not want any sincere > analysis. > > > > Thanks > > > > Yours truly, > > Sanat > > > > PS : Now each and every astrological book, magazine and astrologers > > are explaining (or befooling) that Rahu and Ketu are intersection > > point of orbit of the Sun and Moon (though this was not the concept > > of our sages). Today on 1-8-8, there is total solar eclipse when > Sun > > and Moon may be at +105 degree but Ketu is at 115 degree. Now > > everybody knows that at the time of total solar eclipse Moon is > going > > to intersect the orbit of the Sun and during intersection Sun > happens > > to be on the point of intersection hence we can see total solar > > eclipse. Now my question to the members of the forum is that what > > Ketu (which is intersection point of orbits) is doing at 115 > degree, > > whereas it must be at 105 degree the location where Sun and Moon > are > > transiting. Thus can't member realize that position of these shadow > > planets in the horoscopes is wrong. (other such examples are also > > given in my blog `Astrology a science or myth') > > Hope to have some answer for further discussion. Members may > discuss > > personally to other astrologers or consult in other forums if they > do > > not have any answer. > > sanat > > > > > > > > > > , " Avtar Krishen Kaul " > > <jyotirved@> wrote: > > > > > > Dear Jain Sahib, > > > Excellent analysis! > > > Congratulations for dissecting such a terse subject > as " astrology " -- > > - > > > about which literally trillions of volumes have been written--- in > > > such a simple yet pithy manner! > > > Regards, > > > AKK > > > , " sanat2221 " > > > <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > Resp Ron, > > > > Thanks for your comments. > > > > At least thanks for admitting that Hindu (vedic) and western > and > > KP > > > > systems are not working correctly. Hence you have left them and > > > > adopted a new Khullar system. > > > > > > > > Khullar system is a mixture of Hindu and KP system; whereas KP > > > system > > > > is a mixture of Hindu and Western system. So indirectly Khullar > > > > system has adopted a way of old wine in new bottle. I have also > > > tried > > > > to fuse these both systems in many ways and result of fusion > may > > be > > > > seen in `Eskain horoscope' in file section. But again like head > > and > > > > tail of a coin, some prediction may right randomly but same > > > > combination is not working in another horoscope. It will take > > some > > > > more time to you to realize that this system is also not > working. > > > > Because basic building block of this system too, like all > others, > > > is > > > > based on sign, sign lord, cusp (which is a reverse copy of > > > > Vinshottary dasha " ), friendship, exalted etc. Until unless > these > > > > building blocks of predictive astrology may have some > scientific > > or > > > > logical theory behind them till then how you can say that some > > > thing > > > > can be predicted. Because only that event can be predicted > which > > is > > > > predestined and take your time to realize / think that even if > a > > > > single event of future of any one life is fixed then whole > > sequence > > > > of event of the life may automatically be fixed. This in turn > may > > > fix > > > > the sequence of event of other life. Thus whole set up will be > > > fixed. > > > > Then where is the use of knowing the future or where is the > scope > > > of > > > > amending any unpleasant event. > > > > > > > > You have mentioned an event of > > > > >>>>>>> one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw > > that > > > > she > > > > was likely to die the following day even though she had no known > > > > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long > > > > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared > > > > fine, but the following day she died as indicated.<<<<<<<<<<. > In > > > this > > > > connection I will like to say that every predictive system > either > > > it > > > > may be astrology or KP system, Western system, Magi system, Lal > > > > kitab, numerology, Terro card, palmistry, Nadi shastra, face > > > > reading, signature reading, Vaastu, and so on have so many > > stories > > > to > > > > tell but none of them is correct and all of them are > > > psychologically > > > > correct or randomly correct. Thus there is no logic in > believing > > > any > > > > random forecast to amend our plan, decision in any respect. > etc. > > If > > > > above story of death of mother is right in your opinion then > the > > > > combination in horoscope by which death may be known would have > > > been > > > > published in scientific journal and Khullar himself would have > > been > > > > appointed as chief boss of all Insurance companies to see as to > > > > whether life insurance of a person may be done or not. Thus you > > can > > > > see that only a single forecast based on combination of planets > > may > > > > lead to flow of money then what would happen if a system > > (khullar) > > > > would have been correct in many respect ie. It may tell about > > job, > > > > promotion, illness, health and so on. You may please intimate > the > > > > planetary cuspal combination of the horoscope by which death > was > > > > decoded for the benefit of the members of the forum, who may > take > > > > benefit of such a combination and get insured. Do not take it > > > > otherwise, I am seriously requesting you and if you don't have > > that > > > > combination then you may intimate some other combination, or > you > > > may > > > > check yourself the viability of the system and get rid off. > > > > > > > > Our basic question is still pending that so long any one is not > > > able > > > > to know that how basic building block of predictive astrology > > (sign > > > > lord etc. ) were formulated and whether procedure adopted has > > some > > > > scientific or logical approach till then we all are bound to > fall > > > in > > > > one or another trap. I am saying so that I find (not to say > after > > > how > > > > much labour) that all predictive principles were formulated on > > > > primitive myth, knowledge, tradition etc. and thus these > > principles > > > > have no logical or scientific support in view of modern > > knowledge. > > > If > > > > Hindu (so called vedic) astrology would have been correct then > > > what > > > > was the need to modify it as western and in turn as KP system > > and > > > in > > > > turn as Khullar system and what was the need to create so many > > > other > > > > systems like palmistry etc. It is not for improving an existing > > > > system, otherwise all previous systems would have been buried > and > > > > some new correct system would have been survived and in turn > > every > > > > one would have been realized as to how our ole astrologer were > > > wrong. > > > > But you can see that every system is going on, because every > > system > > > > has some business and followers. But you are right that after > > > > realizing some mistake you have jumped to some new system and > it > > is > > > > correct way of analyzing a system, because you may not be a > > > > practitioner astrologer. Otherwise you may have stick to any > one > > > > system and anyhow support that system like many astrologers. > > > > > > > > Thus you were initially right when you think : > > > > >>>>>>> Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful > > > about > > > > the > > > > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system. > > > > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical positions, > > > > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had unsuccessfully > > > > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any > > > > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct > > > > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being led > > > > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting > > > > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the > > > > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me > > > > eager see why they were successful.<<<< > > > > and now no need to go for blind chart, you may check and > announce > > > > when Osama will die or likewise some other definite prediction > > > about > > > > any one in the world and continue to serve many Govt. > > > > > > > > Hope to receive some tested principles of khullar for definite > > > > prediction, which may not have some psychological mixture for > the > > > > larger benefit of the members. > > > > > > > > Thanks, > > > > > > > > Yours truly, > > > > Sanat > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rongaunt@ au " > > > > <rongaunt@> wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Hi Sanat, > > > > > > > > > > I respond to the extracted part of your message where you say: > > > > > > > > > > 'So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you must > > > > > find out the procedure as to how all basic principles were > > > > > formulated and is their any scientific logic (in view of > modern > > > > > knowledge) or not.' > > > > > > > > > > Now this is a most scientific approach you have taken!! You > > have > > > > > obviously already taken the stance that Mr Khullar's work is > > > > > bogus or you would not say 'falling into another trap by > > > > > Khullar'. > > > > > > > > > > I have serious doubts that you have studied his work at all, > > > > > never mind being intimately aquatinted with it. So your > > > > > unfounded prejudice for a scientific observer is obvious for > all > > > > > to see, and is clearly hypocritical if you have not studied > the > > > > > subject. I think most would agree your approach here at > least > > is > > > > > MOST UNSCIENTIFIC. > > > > > > > > > > For your information the Khullar system is by far the most > > > > > scientific of all astrology I have come across. Mr Khullar > > > > > examined in detail both Western and Hindu astrology. He took > > > > > much from the traditions of the Hindus, and from Nadi > astrology. > > > > > He went right to the source of their ideas and worked out > > > > > exactly why they were quoting certain important slokas. He > > > > > then incorporated these ideas into a major advancement on the > KP > > > > > system using cuspal interlinks. > > > > > > > > > > I personally gave up believing authors have all (or even) > some > > of > > > > > the answers all of the time, so I thoroughly check everything > > > > > stated. If I find a system not working as stated even once > I > > > > > start having reservations. When I see it doesn't work quite > a > > > > > few times I discard it. I have not been able to do this with > > > > > the Khullar system because it does work. > > > > > > > > > > Let me say that at the outset I was extremely doubtful about > the > > > > > system. Here was an author who used a specific house system. > > > > > specific ayanamsa, geocentric rather than geophysical > positions, > > > > > a specific dasa system, etc, all of which I had > unsuccessfully > > > > > tried to ascertain myself over the years. I wondered how any > > > > > one person could get all of these exactly right to get correct > > > > > answers enough to create a valid system. Weary after being > led > > > > > up the garden path so many times, I was doubtful about wasting > > > > > time at my age to attempt to learn the system. However, the > > > > > success of Khullar students in our Blind Chart tests made me > > > > > eager see why they were successful. > > > > > > > > > > I think any experienced astrologer would agree that even if > you > > > > > ask a number of astrologers - all following the same system - > > > > > to assess or predict for an event they will invariably all > come > > > > > up with a different answer. > > > > > > > > > > This does not happen in KCIL because all charts are rectified > by > > > > > strict criteria, and invariably all students come up with the > > > > > same rectified chart. They all assess the event to get the > > > > > same answer because the cuspal interlinks are specific to the > > > > > chart and the rules are clearly laid down. This is > extremely > > > > > scientific astrology. > > > > > > > > > > Apart from success in Blind Charts there has been extremely > good > > > > > predictions ie births to the day and a narrow time frame. > Also > > > > > one practitioner looked at his mother's chart, and saw that > she > > > > > was likely to die the following day even though she had no > known > > > > > problems. He packed his family into the car and went long > > > > > distance across country to his mother's house. She appeared > > > > > fine, but the following day she died as indicated. How > many > > > > > astrologers using other systems would be sufficiently > confident > > > > > to do this? > > > > > > > > > > We have seen other things which validate the system, such as > > > > > Mr Khullar declaring that a certain person could not have been > > > > > born in a certain part of city because the events of the life > > and > > > > > family connections did not line up in regard to the relevant > > > > > house cusps. He then stated where the person was likely to > > have > > > > > been born. Checking with the native the position chosen was > > > > > almost spot on. There are many other reasons that indicate > > > > > that the system does work. > > > > > > > > > > So Sanat, first study this system in detail then pronounce on > > > > > it, that is the truly scientific way. Your opinion may then > > > > > carry some weight but until then it is difficult for anyone to > > > > > take your opinions (at least on this matter) seriously. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > Ron Gaunt > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On Sun, 27 Jul 2008 18:13:14 -0000, you wrote: > > > > > > > > > > >Dear Ron, > > > > > >Welcome in the forum for your first msg. > > > > > >You have good knowledge of astrology, still you are not > > > convinced > > > > > >with any system and advocating an another Khullar system. I > am > > > > > >reproducing your stand > > > > > > > > > > > >>>>>>>>Again most do not realise that it is possible to see > > > > anything > > > > > >and everything you want to see after the event with ANY and > > > EVERY > > > > > >system, due to the enormous number of permutations. > > > > > >I think I have looked at just about every astrological > system > > > and > > > > > >method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, > and > > > > others > > > > > >do not give consistently good results. <<<<<<<<<<< > > > > > > > > > > > >against you. Because it makes no difference as to whether we > > are > > > > > >linking any past event with some principles or we are > linking > > > > future > > > > > >prediction with our psychology. If I will say your next > month > > is > > > > not > > > > > >good and you have faith on predictive astrology, then every > > > > > >psychological odd in next month will be linked with this > > > > prediction > > > > > >and in sub-conscious mind you may bent upon to think that > > > > astrology > > > > > >is correct. So it has no relevancy at all. > > > > > > > > > > > >We in India are being befooled and cheated by astrologers > > since > > > > 2000 > > > > > >years without knowing that sign was devised by Greeks and > > > adopted > > > > by > > > > > >us without any religious support. Because mass population > > always > > > > > >remains uneducated and educated lot are being lured by crowd > > of > > > > heads > > > > > >on shoulders (without knowing that their heads are empty in > > this > > > > > >respect) who follows some traditions. Cunning or ignorant > > > > astrologers > > > > > >after reading some latest books on astrology, full with > praise > > > of > > > > > >sages and latest data of solar system thinks (and propagate) > > > that > > > > our > > > > > >sages were well known with modern data. Thus they are able > to > > > > befool > > > > > >ignorant public in the name of Ved, Sage, Myth and so on > with > > > the > > > > > >help of Media and publicity. > > > > > > > > > > > >Bare fact is this that our sages were very logical and open > to > > > all > > > > > >sort of logical knowledge (which can not be questioned). > They > > > were > > > > > >very clear when they appreciate the knowledge of Greeks > > because > > > > they > > > > > >were of the opinion " tamso ma jyotirgamay " means we must go > > > ahead > > > > > >towards knowledge from ignorance. For the purpose of > knowledge > > > > they > > > > > >were following " Vasudevam kutumbkam " means whole world is a > > > > family. > > > > > >Thus they adopted sign system and other knowledge from > Greeks > > > and > > > > > >mixed it with our constellational system and religious > concept > > > of > > > > > >formation of universe. Thus our sages formulated basic > > > principles > > > > > >like sign lord, aspect, friendship, exalted, dasha and so on > > > > (refer > > > > > >my book in Hindi or in English for detailed procedure etc.), > > by > > > > which > > > > > >they were able to forecast some thing which happens to be > true > > > > > >(psychologically, and this phenomena was not known till 18th > > > > > >century). Thus Greeks then Romans adopted these principles > and > > > > > >subsequently slightly modified (aspect) as Western system, > > > whereas > > > > > >sign lord etc are same. As we Indians are not aware that > > concept > > > > of > > > > > >sign belongs to Greek / Babylonia likewise Western countries > > are > > > > not > > > > > >aware that sign lord etc. principles were formulated by our > > > sages > > > > on > > > > > >the basis of religious myth that Earth is stationary, Sun is > > > > nearer > > > > > >then Moon, all constellation are just above Moon and so on. > In > > > > this > > > > > >way where we Indians are being befooled in the name of Ved, > > > sages; > > > > > >likewise western countries were being befooled that > predictive > > > > > >principals were formulated by Ptolemy and now everyone is > > after > > > > > >socalled " Vedic astrology " without knowing that there is no > > > > > >predictive astrology in Ved. Thus predictive astrology is > > merely > > > a > > > > > >psychological game like magic. We must enjoy this game but > > must > > > > not > > > > > >be lured like a fool who may be lured by creation of > currency > > > > notes > > > > > >from a box by a magician and left his job in the hope to > > create > > > > note > > > > > >from that box. > > > > > > > > > > > >So instead of falling in an another trap by Khullar, you > must > > > find > > > > > >out the procedure as to how all basic principles were > > formulated > > > > and > > > > > >is their any scientific logic (in view of modern knowledge) > or > > > > not. > > > > > > > > > > > >Some points were discussed in brief (refer SOA_______ files > in > > > > file > > > > > >section) because followers of astrology, could not stand > after > > > > > >raising very simple arguments and further discussion could > not > > > be > > > > > >done. I hope that after +35 years of experience you may like > > to > > > > > >discuss on any point. > > > > > > > > > > > >Thanks, > > > > > >Yours truly, > > > > > >Sanat > > > > > > > > > > > >PS: Sh. Razdan Ji, Ghopal Ji, vinvj and Jagannathan Ji may > > > please > > > > > >come forward with reply on my comments. Silence is not a > > > solution. > > > > > >Silently reading is also not a solution. When we are in a > > forum > > > > then > > > > > >either we must educate other members or may improve our > > > knowledge. > > > > > >Remaining " as it is " is not a good sign. For improvement we > > must > > > > have > > > > > >inquisitive mind. I am ready to learn from expert > astrologers > > > but > > > > not > > > > > >as blind supporter. If Astrology is science then it must > cross > > > all > > > > > >questions and must have logical answers to all sort of doubt. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > , " rongaunt@ au " > > > > > ><rongaunt@> wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Friends, > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I am new to the forum, but have a fair knowledge of > > astrology > > > as > > > > > >> it has been my hobby for over 35 years. I am all for > > > > > >> questioning the validity of the subject, as I suspect that > > many > > > > > >> many astrologers, are very gullible because they have not > > > > > >> studied deeply enough to realise that the permutations in > > > > > >> astrology run into the millions. Again most do not > realise > > > that > > > > > >> it is possible to see anything and everything you want to > see > > > > > >> after the event with ANY and EVERY system, due to the > > enormous > > > > > >> number of permutations. And f course, very few if any, go > > on > > > to > > > > > >> achieve good predictions. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> I think I have looked at just about every astrological > > system > > > and > > > > > >> method going, and frankly most of them do not work at all, > > and > > > > > >> others do not give consistently good results. It has been > > my > > > aim > > > > > >> to find one that does work, and to this end I started > > possibly > > > > > >> the first of the regulat Blind Charts tests on the Web > many > > > years > > > > > >> ago. I hoped to find a system that really did work. It > is > > > > > >> only in the last year or so that I have found such a > system, > > > > > >> which drew my attention because the students of a > particular > > > > > >> astrological institution kept getting correct results in > our > > > > > >> Blind Chart tests. The system is the Khullar method of > > > Cuspal > > > > > >> Interlinks. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Anyhow my intention in writing this mail was to point out > > that > > > it > > > > > >> is not very practical to furnish personal data and then > > predict > > > > > >> from it, because the waiting time for the prediction means > > > > > >> everyone will lose interest long before the event does or > > does > > > > > >> not happen. It would be much better to get members to > > furnish > > > > > >> data, to include some events and family birthdates in > order > > to > > > be > > > > > >> able to rectify the chart, and give say four options which > > > > > >> participants will check to find out which of these options > > > > > >> happened on a given date. This is real life astrology > and > > is > > > > > >> almost as good as future prediction, because you use > exactly > > > the > > > > > >> same methods on an unknown event. > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> Ron Gaunt > > > > > >> > > > > > >> > > > > > >> On Sat, 26 Jul 2008 08:44:09 -0000, you wrote: > > > > > >> > > > > > >> >Shri Jagannathan Kapisthalamji, > > > > > >> >Namaskar! > > > > > >> ><If you can furnish your date of birth,place and time of > > > birth > > > > let > > > > > >us > > > > > >> >try some astrological predictions and see whether they > > work.?> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >My late maternal grandfather used to make predictions > from > > > > > >horoscopes > > > > > >> >prepared from Grahalaghava panchangas, which were > anything > > > but > > > > > >> >correct, and that was admitted by the Panchanga makers > > > > > >themselves! > > > > > >> >Quite often his predictions proved correct! > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >Does that prove that any predictive gimmicks are either > > > > scientific > > > > > >or > > > > > >> >Vedic? No. That cannot be so, since Grahalaghava was/is > > > > neither a > > > > > >> >Vedic work nor a scientific one! > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >Thus even if some astrologers are able to make some > correct > > > > > >> >predictions about some one sometimes, that never > > means/proves > > > > that > > > > > >> >those predictions were either on a scientific basis or as > > per > > > > the > > > > > >> >Vedic lore! All that proves is that sometimes some guess > > > works > > > > do > > > > > >> >prove correct and that is why more often than not, > correct > > > > > >preictions > > > > > >> >are made only from incorrect data, whether birth > > particulars > > > or > > > > > >> >astronomical data, since Lahiri Ayanamsha in itself is > the > > > most > > > > > >> >monstrous ayanamsha that could ever have been invented by > > any > > > > > >> >charlatan!! And it is on the basis of only that ayanamsha > > > that > > > > > >ninety- > > > > > >> >nine per cent predictions are made these days! > > > > > >> >With regards, > > > > > >> >A K Kaul > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > , " Jagannathan > > > > > >Kapisthalam " > > > > > >> ><jagannathankr@> wrote: > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> Dear Sir, > > > > > >> >> Your article is quite interesting.If you can furnish > your > > > > date of > > > > > >> >> birth,place and time of birth let us try some > > astrological > > > > > >> >predictions and > > > > > >> >> see whether they work.?This is only out of academic > > > interest. > > > > > >> >> Regards, > > > > > >> >> jagannathan. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> >> On 6/17/08, sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain@> wrote: > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Resp. members, > > > > > >> >> > We are not receiving any msg with some new point of > > > > discussion > > > > > >on > > > > > >> >> > astrology to analyze it's correctness. Hence I am > > > enclosing > > > > my > > > > > >old > > > > > >> >> > blog placed in the file section so that members may > > read > > > it > > > > and > > > > > >> >> > comment on any point. Some astrologer members are not > > > > reacting > > > > > >> >with a > > > > > >> >> > fear to loose their reputation in other forums though > > > they > > > > are > > > > > >> >> > silently reading the msg. Hence if they want they can > > > > interact > > > > > >on > > > > > >> >my > > > > > >> >> > email sanatkumar_jain@ <sanatkumar_jain% > > 40rediffmail.com> > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > So far members have observed that supporters of > > astrology > > > > are > > > > > >> >either > > > > > >> >> > interested in by passing the main point or they have > > only > > > > > >faith on > > > > > >> >> > astrology without any scientific or logical support > to > > > any > > > > > >> >concept. > > > > > >> >> > Thus they want to live in ignorance and pursuing > others > > > to > > > > > >follow > > > > > >> >the > > > > > >> >> > path of ignorance. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > I hope to have some reaction of the members as I am > > > always > > > > > >> >interested > > > > > >> >> > in looking deep. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Thanks > > > > > >> >> > Sanat > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > ASTROLOGY A SCIENCE OR MYTH > > > > > >> >> > Will you please like to ponder and instead of > sticking > > to > > > > some > > > > > >> >> > misconcept regarding astrology on which you have not > > > > studied > > > > > >in > > > > > >> >depth > > > > > >> >> > but you only have faith, because you have been > informed > > > > like > > > > > >> >this. So > > > > > >> >> > come out and think with open mind and decide yourself > > as > > > to > > > > > >> >whether > > > > > >> >> > astrology is scientific or is being given coverup of > > > > science > > > > > >due > > > > > >> >to > > > > > >> >> > some vested interest. I do not want to hurt the > > > sentiments > > > > of > > > > > >> >> > astrologers or who are in support of astrology, but I > > > only > > > > > >want to > > > > > >> >> > emphasise that if you think that it is a science then > > let > > > > us > > > > > >> >examine > > > > > >> >> > it and then there will be no question of hurting, > > because > > > > you > > > > > >have > > > > > >> >> > not formulated the principles. But unfortunately you > > are > > > > > >standing > > > > > >> >in > > > > > >> >> > support of it like a lawyer only due to faith (which > > has > > > > been > > > > > >> >> > infused) and want to conclude like a judge that > > astrology > > > > is a > > > > > >> >> > science without knowing the story of other side. I > can > > > > > >understand > > > > > >> >the > > > > > >> >> > problem of astrologer that they will loose their > > business > > > > but > > > > > >if > > > > > >> >you > > > > > >> >> > are a client then you must have right to know the > truth > > > or > > > > > >call an > > > > > >> >> > astrologer in the consumer forum. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > At the time of formulating the astrological > principles > > in > > > > early > > > > > >> >> > Primitive age, it was the concept that every living > > being > > > > has > > > > > >> >> > capacity to move, whereas lifeless thing cannot move. > > > This > > > > > >> >religious > > > > > >> >> > philosophy leads sages to classify all so-called > planet > > > > (Sun, > > > > > >> >Moon, > > > > > >> >> > Mars etc.) as super living being (Deities). In those > > days > > > > only > > > > > >> >sages > > > > > >> >> > had social sanction to study religious scriptures. > Thus > > > > after > > > > > >> >> > prolonged observation of the sky they developed the > > skill > > > > to > > > > > >> >predict > > > > > >> >> > solar and lunar eclipse, which was the result of so- > > > called > > > > > >> >grabbing > > > > > >> >> > the Sun and Moon by imaginary shadow planets Rahu and > > > Ketu. > > > > > >> >> > They were also able to predict the timing of eclipse > > and > > > its > > > > > >> >> > duration. They have devised an ingenious way to offer > > > > > >donations > > > > > >> >etc. > > > > > >> >> > to get them free from the clutches of Rahu and Ketu, > > > which > > > > is > > > > > >> >still > > > > > >> >> > being followed. It was also religious concept that > fate > > > of > > > > > >> >everybody > > > > > >> >> > is pre-decided according to their deeds. Thus in this > > > > > >situation, > > > > > >> >it > > > > > >> >> > was common wisdom as to when sages were able to > predict > > > the > > > > > >fate > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > deities like Sun and Moon then why they could not > > predict > > > > the > > > > > >> >fate of > > > > > >> >> > King and so on. Thus procedure was devised to > formulate > > > > various > > > > > >> >> > astrological principles on the basis of the then > > > knowledge > > > > of > > > > > >> >sages > > > > > >> >> > based on scriptures and their celestial observation. > > > These > > > > > >> >principles > > > > > >> >> > were the key factors for deciding the fate. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Procedure adopted to formulate these principles was > > never > > > > > >> >percolated > > > > > >> >> > in the Indian society due to illiteracy and hard > > barrier > > > to > > > > > >learn > > > > > >> >> > such knowledge by other castes. Subsequently these > > > > principles > > > > > >were > > > > > >> >> > spread to other civilisation and later on developed > as > > > > Western > > > > > >> >system. > > > > > >> >> > What is happening nowadays that there are two groups. > > One > > > > group > > > > > >> >> > belongs to astrologers who always try to support > > > astrology > > > > due > > > > > >to > > > > > >> >> > their business considerations (these astrologers > always > > > try > > > > to > > > > > >fit > > > > > >> >> > past event very precisely within some astrological > > > > principle > > > > > >> >within a > > > > > >> >> > capsule of ved, religion, astronomy (eclipse etc.) > and > > > > faith > > > > > >etc., > > > > > >> >> > but they are unable to predict any future event. > > Because > > > > > >> >astrological > > > > > >> >> > principles lead to diverse predictions and that too > > > > diabolical > > > > > >> >> > opposite to each other. If by chance a prediction (in > > > > fluke) > > > > > >may > > > > > >> >come > > > > > >> >> > true then they start to harp on the same prediction > and > > > > start > > > > > >self > > > > > >> >> > praising instead of applying the same socalled > > principle > > > on > > > > > >other > > > > > >> >> > horoscopes to see their failure. Thus astrologer can > > only > > > > > >mislead, > > > > > >> >> > create confusion, try to cure `planets' and so on. > You > > > can > > > > > >find > > > > > >> >that > > > > > >> >> > only this is going on in every forum), whereas other > > > group > > > > (say > > > > > >> >> > scientist) try to raise some logical questions > against > > > > > >astrology. > > > > > >> >But > > > > > >> >> > none of them have ever tried to investigate as to > what > > > was > > > > the > > > > > >> >level > > > > > >> >> > of information of sages about the Universe, who > > developed > > > > > >> >> > astrological principles in primitive age and what > > > procedure > > > > was > > > > > >> >> > adopted to formulate various principles relating to > > > > Lordship, > > > > > >> >> > Friendship-enmity, Exalted-debilitated, Aspect, > > > Vinshottary > > > > > >> >> > periodicity etc. If we analyse whole set of > principles > > > then > > > > > >> >following > > > > > >> >> > questions may be raised (basis of formulation is > given > > in > > > > > >> >subpara). > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > 1 What procedure was adopted to allot twelve signs > > among > > > > seven > > > > > >> >> > planets (as Mars is lord of Aries, Scorpio etc.) ? > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > It was based on the concept that Sun is just above > the > > > > > >stationary > > > > > >> >> > Earth and Moon is above the Sun and so on………. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > 2 What procedure was adopted to decide that there is > > > enmity > > > > and > > > > > >> >> > friendship between some planets (as Sun and Saturn > are > > > > enemy > > > > > >of > > > > > >> >each > > > > > >> >> > other) ? > > > > > >> >> > Based on the Indian myth of fight between deities and > > > > demons > > > > > >over > > > > > >> >> > nector after sea-churning……….. > > > > > >> >> > 3 What procedure was adopted to decide various aspect > > > > (full, > > > > > >> >quarter > > > > > >> >> > to full, half and quarter), (as planets have full > > aspect > > > on > > > > > >> >seventh > > > > > >> >> > house) ? > > > > > >> >> > Based on the position of army in the battle field……….. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > 4 What procedure was adopted to decide that planets > are > > > > > >exalted > > > > > >> >and > > > > > >> >> > debilitated at some degree (as Sun is exalted at 10 > > deg. > > > of > > > > > >Aries > > > > > >> >> > sign) ? > > > > > >> >> > Based on planetary situation linked with Sun, when > > > duration > > > > of > > > > > >the > > > > > >> >> > day is more in comparison to night…… > > > > > >> >> > 5 What procedure was adopted to decide that most > > powerful > > > > and > > > > > >hub > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > our solar system, Sun has 6 years vinshottary dasha > > > whereas > > > > > >Venus > > > > > >> >(a > > > > > >> >> > small planet) has 20 years ? > > > > > >> >> > Based on two triangles derived after working out the > > > effect > > > > of > > > > > >> >> > Universe on the basis of lord and exalted……. > > > > > >> >> > 6 What procedure was adopted to allot various > > > > constellations > > > > > >> >between > > > > > >> >> > nine planets with different vinshottary dasha ? > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Kratica was first constellation in Indian > scriptures………. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > 7 What procedure was adopted to decide order of days > of > > a > > > > week > > > > > >> >> > (Sunday, Monday etc.) ? > > > > > >> >> > Based on distribution of 60 Ghati (Ghat = pitcher) in > > the > > > > > >> >structure > > > > > >> >> > of Universe where Sun is nearer and Moon is far > away….. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > 8 What procedure was adopted to decide fixed > retrograde > > > > motion > > > > > >of > > > > > >> >> > Rahu Ketu (3-11 minute-second per day)? > > > > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse….. > > > > > >> >> > 9 What procedure was adopted to decide that Rahu, > Ketu > > > are > > > > 180 > > > > > >> >deg. > > > > > >> >> > apart? > > > > > >> >> > On the basis of recurrence of eclipse……….. > > > > > >> >> > 10 What procedure was adopted to decide timings of > > > eclipse ? > > > > > >> >> > Repetition of eclipse after fixed constellation > > month………. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Thus there may be endless questions, with a final > > > question > > > > as > > > > > >to > > > > > >> >> > whether present form of astrology is correct? If some > > one > > > > gave > > > > > >> >> > answers to these questions then he will realize that > > > entire > > > > > >> >> > astrological principles are totally based on wrong > > > concept > > > > of > > > > > >> >> > Universe. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Everybody may agree that every research is based on > the > > > then > > > > > >> >> > knowledge. In the same way, when astrology was > > developed > > > by > > > > > >sage > > > > > >> >> > Parashar etc. At that time it was believed that Earth > > is > > > in > > > > the > > > > > >> >> > centre of the Universe and stationary (it is also > > > believed > > > > in > > > > > >all > > > > > >> >> > religions). Beside this it was also believed (you may > > > read > > > > any > > > > > >old > > > > > >> >> > scriptures) that Sun is nearer from the Earth, > whereas > > > Moon > > > > is > > > > > >> >beyond > > > > > >> >> > Sun. All constellations are situated in between > Mercury > > > and > > > > > >Moon. > > > > > >> >> > You may be surprised to know that all astrological > > > > principles > > > > > >are > > > > > >> >> > actually fabricated around this concept. I my-self > > > studying > > > > > >> >astrology > > > > > >> >> > since last 35 years and developed softwares to > conclude > > > > correct > > > > > >> >> > prediction. But if it is true at one time then same > > > > > >combination is > > > > > >> >> > not true in other case. It leads me to think afresh > > > > logically > > > > > >and > > > > > >> >> > systematically over this subject and I find that > > > Primitive > > > > > >concept > > > > > >> >> > (when astrology was developed) requires full > > overhauling > > > in > > > > > >view > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > modern scientific astronomy, according to which > > primitive > > > > > >concept > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > Universe (basis of astrology) was totally changed. > > > > > >> >> > After lot of research I wrote an original book on > > > > > >> >astrology " Jyotish - > > > > > >> >> > Kitna sahi kitna galat " in Hindi (330 pages). This > book > > > > > >contains > > > > > >> >the > > > > > >> >> > detailed procedure adopted to formulate these > > principles > > > on > > > > > >the > > > > > >> >basis > > > > > >> >> > of the then knowledge about the Universe, which leads > > our > > > > > >sages to > > > > > >> >> > formulate these principles. This book was also > > published > > > in > > > > > >> >English > > > > > >> >> > with the title " Astrology a science or myth " (450 > > pages). > > > > The > > > > > >> >book is > > > > > >> >> > being marketed in USA /UK etc. > > > > > >> >> > Refer http://www.bokklubben.no/samboweb/produkt.do? > > > > > >> >produktID=1759836 > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > http://www.thebookplace.com/bookplace/results-asp? > > > AUB=sanat% > > > > > >> >20kumar% > > > > > >> >> > 20jain & TAG= & CID= > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > http://www.aggarwaloverseas.com/booksdetail.aspx? > > > > > >> >> > ProductID=64211 & catID=AGO010 & detail=t > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > At that time our sages were neither aware of Uranus, > > > > Neptune > > > > > >nor > > > > > >> >they > > > > > >> >> > were aware that solar and lunar eclipses occurred due > > to > > > > > >presence > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > Moon and shadow of Earth. That's why they have > > developed > > > > the > > > > > >> >concept > > > > > >> >> > of Rahu and Ketu with retrograde motion of 3'11 " . It > > was > > > > > >> >mentioned in > > > > > >> >> > the Grahlaghav that eclipse occurred when Rahu/Ketu > > came > > > > > >within 14 > > > > > >> >> > degree on Amavasya (dark night) or Puranmashi (full > > > Moon). > > > > But > > > > > >> >nobody > > > > > >> >> > will be able to answer that why there was no lunar > > > eclipse > > > > > >when > > > > > >> >Sun, > > > > > >> >> > Moon and Rahu were at 203.01, 23.01 and 34.43 degree > > > > > >respectively > > > > > >> >on > > > > > >> >> > 08-11-1984 (Rahu was within 11.42 degree) or when > Sun, > > > Moon > > > > > >and > > > > > >> >Ketu > > > > > >> >> > were at 319.74, 139.74 and 150.26 degree respectively > > on > > > 03- > > > > 03- > > > > > >> >1988 ( > > > > > >> >> > Ketu was within 10.52 degree). Likewise I find that > > Solar > > > > > >eclipses > > > > > >> >> > occurred even when difference between Moon and Rahu > was > > > > more > > > > > >then > > > > > >> >> > 14°. Sun and Moon were at 94.24 deg., whereas Rahu > was > > at > > > > > >79.04 > > > > > >> >deg. > > > > > >> >> > on 21-07-1982 (Rahu was 15.20 deg. away). Sun and > Moon > > > were > > > > at > > > > > >> >76.49 > > > > > >> >> > deg., whereas Rahu was at 91.93 deg. on 02-07-2000 > > (Rahu > > > > was > > > > > >15.14 > > > > > >> >> > deg. away). > > > > > >> >> > To give a modern scientific colour to the astrology, > > you > > > > will > > > > > >also > > > > > >> >> > find in many modern astrological books that eclipse > > > > occurred > > > > > >at > > > > > >> >the > > > > > >> >> > intersection point of orbit of the Sun and Moon > (though > > > it > > > > was > > > > > >not > > > > > >> >> > known to our sages and Rahu Ketu were created on the > > > basis > > > > of > > > > > >> >myth). > > > > > >> >> > Thus it is clear that at the time of full solar > > eclipse, > > > > when > > > > > >Moon > > > > > >> >> > happens to be just over the Sun than Rahu must also > be > > > > there. > > > > > >But > > > > > >> >As > > > > > >> >> > per almanac Ketu was shown at 194 and 177 degree on > 12- > > 11- > > > > 1985 > > > > > >> >and 3- > > > > > >> >> > 10-1986 (refer any almanac) respectively when there > > were > > > > full > > > > > >> >solar > > > > > >> >> > eclipse and position of Sun/Moon were at 206 and 166 > > > degree > > > > > >> >> > respectively. You will agree that when there were > full > > > > solar > > > > > >> >eclipses > > > > > >> >> > then on these dates either Rahu or Ketu must be at > 206 > > > and > > > > 166 > > > > > >> >degree > > > > > >> >> > respectively, because only then full solar eclipse > may > > > > > >possible. > > > > > >> >> > Whereas Ketu was being shown at 194 and 177 degrees > in > > > > > >almanac. > > > > > >> >Thus > > > > > >> >> > there was clear mistake of about 12 and 11 degrees > > > > > >respectively. > > > > > >> >All > > > > > >> >> > horoscopes are defective in this light and due to > this > > > > > >fundamental > > > > > >> >> > positional variation, prediction is also effected. If > > you > > > > want > > > > > >> >then I > > > > > >> >> > can give many more examples and very simple method of > > > > > >detecting > > > > > >> >them. > > > > > >> >> > I fully support that astrology (predictive) is not a > > > > science > > > > > >but > > > > > >> >in > > > > > >> >> > primitive age predictive astrology was a mixture of > > > > astronomy + > > > > > >> >> > psychology + faith. Because astronomy is a science, > > > > psychology > > > > > >> >> > (recently discovered and it was not known in > primitive > > > age) > > > > > >> >played an > > > > > >> >> > important role in handling a person by the astrologer > > due > > > > to > > > > > >> >immense > > > > > >> >> > faith over astrology+astrologer hence predictive > > > astrology > > > > > >> >appears to > > > > > >> >> > be correct due to combined effect of all three. You > > will > > > > also > > > > > >> >agree > > > > > >> >> > with the above observation after going through my > > original > > > > > >> >> > revolutionary research. Because if everything is pre- > > > > decided > > > > > >as > > > > > >> >was > > > > > >> >> > contention of sages then why we may take pains, why > we > > > may > > > > try > > > > > >to > > > > > >> >do > > > > > >> >> > some thing, because every thing will take place > > according > > > > to > > > > > >pre- > > > > > >> >> > written destiny. Secondly, there is no question of > > > > modifying > > > > > >that > > > > > >> >pre- > > > > > >> >> > written destiny, because if we try to change only our > > > fate, > > > > > >even > > > > > >> >then > > > > > >> >> > all attached happening will automatically change > > creating > > > a > > > > > >> >cascading > > > > > >> >> > effect, which in turn will change the pre-written > fate > > of > > > > every > > > > > >> >> > person. In another case, if destiny is not pre- > written > > or > > > > say > > > > > >pre- > > > > > >> >> > defined than it is not possible to detect it. Because > > > when > > > > > >every > > > > > >> >Tom, > > > > > >> >> > Dick and Harry are changing their destiny due to > > worship, > > > > good > > > > > >> >deed > > > > > >> >> > etc. then destiny of every one will continue remain > > under > > > > > >change. > > > > > >> >You > > > > > >> >> > will agree that astrology is totally based on > > mathematical > > > > > >> >> > calculation regarding planets, whose transit is fixed > > and > > > > can > > > > > >> >never > > > > > >> >> > and never be altered. Now when transit or birth chart > > > > cannot be > > > > > >> >> > altered it means result of calculation or say > > prediction > > > is > > > > > >also > > > > > >> >> > fixed. Then how one may change his destiny (if it is > > ever > > > > > >> >prewritten) > > > > > >> >> > by adopting some means like offering, ring, vastu > etc. > > > > because > > > > > >in > > > > > >> >> > that case, if you like to say, then future events > will > > be > > > > > >altered > > > > > >> >but > > > > > >> >> > how a calculation of planetary transit or linked > > > prediction > > > > > >can be > > > > > >> >> > changed, which is fixed due to birth chart or fixed > > > transit > > > > of > > > > > >> >> > planets? > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > Those who think that astrology is a science may be > rest > > > > > >assured > > > > > >> >that > > > > > >> >> > actually predictive astrology is not a science at > all. > > > Only > > > > > >> >astronomy > > > > > >> >> > and psychology (discovered only in last 200 years) > were > > > used > > > > > >> >> > unknowingly by our sages for some prediction and it > > > appears > > > > > >> >correct. > > > > > >> >> > Hence predictive astrology is bogus and astrology is > a > > > > myth. > > > > > >> >Still if > > > > > >> >> > you have a faith on astrology then why don't you > > contact > > > > The > > > > > >James > > > > > >> >> > Randi Educational Foundation who offeres a US > $1000000 > > > > prize to > > > > > >> >> > anyone who can demonstrate that astrology works. His > e- > > > mail > > > > and > > > > > >> >> > website is jref@ <jref%40randi.org> and > > > > > >> >http://www.randi.orgBecause modern > > > > > >> >> > technologies like computer, TV, Newspaper etc. are > > being > > > > used > > > > > >to > > > > > >> >> > spread this myth in the cover up of science with > vested > > > > > >business > > > > > >> >> > interest. Hence it requires a logical approach to > fight > > > > this > > > > > >sort > > > > > >> >of > > > > > >> >> > ignorance. My book has vital scientific information > in > > > this > > > > > >regard > > > > > >> >> > and readers of the book are fully convinced that > > astrology > > > > > >> >> > (predictive) is bogus, because procedure adopted to > > > > formulate > > > > > >> >> > principles was neither logical nor based on correct > > > > > >information of > > > > > >> >> > Universe, solar system. > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > It would be better to know the roots of astrology and > > > > facts, > > > > > >data > > > > > >> >> > behind it before falling in the trap and come forward > > to > > > > join > > > > > >> >hands > > > > > >> >> > because of AIDS (Astrology Is Damaging Society). > > > > > >> >> > Sanat Kumar Jain > > > > > >> >> > Think differently, Think logically and Think > > > scientifically > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > > >> >> > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> >--- > > > > > >> > > > > > > >> > Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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