Astrology : faith or fiction ?

April 26, 2008

Another (old) challenge:rom:

" rupinderrinku " <rupinderrinku Date:

Fri Jul 1, 2005 2:40 pm Subject:

OUR CHALLENGE

rupinderrinku

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My self, Rupinder Singh, would like to tell to all the astrolgersto accept the challenge of Tarksheel society Punjab (Regd.) which isfor all the Astrologers or fotune tellers of the world.

Our Challenge:Pick out correctly – Within a Margin of five percent error – thosemales, females, the living and the dead from a set of ten palm printsor ten astrological charts giving the exact time of birth correct the

minute, and places of birth with their latitudes and long longitudes.This challenge is ruled by the following conditions:1) The person who accepts the challenge, whether he or she wants ourreward or not, should deposit Rs. 3000/ as an entry fee to us. We

insist on this fee, which will be refunded in the event of his or herwinning the test, just to deter the inundation of amateur contestantschasing cheap publicity, who would waste our valuable time, money andenergy.

2) A person will be considered an acceptor of the challenge onlyafter he or she makes the earnest deposit, and no communication willbe made with anyone who fails to do so.3) After the deposit of submission fee, the claims of person will be

tested by us, in public, on a mutually appointed day. All tests willbe held in our local town.4) If a person fails in the test or to face the test, his depositwill be forfeited. If he wins our test, his deposit will be refunded

with the award of Rs 5,00,000.5) All tests will be conducted under fraud-proof conditions up to ourfullest satisfaction.6) Anyone who wishes to accept the challenge please contact me at myE- Mail ID: rationalist2005 or rupinderrinku

Even if you say that you don't need Rs.5,00,000 but youwish to prove your astrology then also please feel free to contact me.Let us judge how much faith you have in your Astrology.Contact me at:

rationalist2005orrupinderrinku

On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 11:52 AM, Krishnamurthy Seetharama <krishna_1998 wrote:

Dear Sanat ji, I can also throw a challenge. Let us see if some one is ready to take it. I have identified specific combinations in the charts of people with either Type-1 or Type-2 diabetes. In my write-up I have demonstrated several charts of people suffering from both types of diabetes having the combinations I have specified. After I published my article several people having diabetes sent their birth data to me to check if they do have such combination. My success rate so far is above 90%. I think this is good enough to consider that the approach is scientific and the basis of my work (astrology) is scientific.

For anyone who wants to read my article, please reach the following link: http://astrokrishna.blogspot.com/2007/04/astrology-and-diabetes-by-astrokrishna.html

Now, if Astrology is fiction, how come people with specific ailments have specific combinations in their birth charts? Therefore is astrology a fiction? I guess this is too good be just coincidence.

What do you say? I am working on another project to identify someone's blood group using the natal chart. My aim is to publish this soon. Just because we have lost a way a bit in the way we practice astrology, it is not fake. It is not difficult to find our way back to the real truth.

If a building collapses, you can not call Civil Engineering as fake! It is just incorrect application that caused the debacle. Astrology has seen many such

debacles due to non-standardization of the theory, many pseudo scientists. Another issue is inaccurate birth details that we work with. Once we work on this and find a good fix, this can be as good as any other modern science. Hope people realize this.

Regards, Krishna sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain wrote:

Astrology is faith or fictionResp. Dipika ji,Namaskar, Welcome in the forum and thanks for your first

msg. I am relieved a little bit as I find a friend with strong views and dedication. Hope you will ask your other rational friends to join this forum to face the arguments put forward by the astrologers, individuals and

learners with a view to know their stand and convince them if possible. But of course without any personal ill-will.You have raised a point as to whether Astrology is faith or fiction. So far my stand is concerned I am of the firm opinion that it is

both. Astrology is alive on the shoulder of faith derived from religion. Whereas it has nothing to do with religion. As predictive astrology is offspring of astronomy, which was known as astrology. Human psychology which was not known to our sages played an important

role in promoting it. Secondly, predictions concluded by the astrologers are randomly true, hence it is fiction.Have you noticed that every astrologer claims that it is science (though no

scientist ever say that any research is backed by any religion). But when we put some questions then they try to hide them in the lap of religion. For fear of God, people generally avoid this scene. Hence astrologer continue to survive. Because there is lot of

business activity hence businessman (may be media or jewelers etc.) support them. Innocent, ignorant general public neither has knowledge nor time nor patience to dig it nor willing to accept that our sages too were human-beings. Hence they become easy prey of astrologers due

to faith and fictitious luring prediction.Regarding your second point as to whether " fake astrologers have brought disrepute to astrology " . I will say No. Because basically there is no repute of astrology hence there is no question of

disrepute too. By linking it with fake astrologers we are indirectly admitting that basically astrology is correct and some fake astrologers have disrepute

it. But it is not the case because if there is lot of fake astrologers then there must be some (say one) best astrologers too. Where are they ? Everybody says that good astrologer can correctly predict but where is he? That best

astrologer is only in the mind of an individual and nowhere. Because when astrology (predictive) itself is not correct then what can be done by a poor astrologer except beating the drum of tradition, ancient, religion, sages, Ved and so on. You can read my first msg or

a file " Astrology a science or myth " , wherein you will find that after raising so many questions not a single astrologer has turned up with the explanation as to how all principles were formulated and so

on…..because predictive astrology is itself fake.You can upload the article of Dean regarding Time Twins.If you have no reservations then please intimate about yourself. Yours truly,Sanat sanatkumar_jain

Members may please offer their comments on the points raised by Ms Dipika Ji or on earlier points. New points are as follows.1. Whether Astrology is faith or fiction.2. Whether " fake astrologers have brought disrepute to astrology " .

Many members are just reading the msg. But I will like to request them that they may offer their views on any side and may please offer their comments pointwise so that summery of discussion may be taken to file section under SOA______. Refer SOA for various points raised

in the forum. Krishnamurthy Ji, where are you as Bala ji is busy in his domestic problem and reply on pending point is awaited from SB Ji. , " dipika blr "

<blr.aspirant wrote:>> Dear

Readers,> I am starting a new thread to discuss whether " Astrology is faith or> fiction? " .> > The old topic discussed whether " fake astrologers have have brought> disrepute to astrology "

> > I think this is just a convenient excuse to address astrology's> shortcomings. Here I shall focus on how astrological principles themselves> are questionable.> > *The case against astrology*

> > The case against astrology is that it is untrue. It does not deliver> benefits beyond those produced by non-astrological factors, it has not> contributed to human knowledge, it has no acceptable mechanism, its

> principles are invalid, and it has failed hundreds of tests. But no hint of> these problems will be found in astrology books, which in effect are> exercises in deception. But it doesn't end there.

> > Astrologers disagree on almost

everything, even on basics such as which> zodiac to use. They rarely test control data, which is why scientists see> astrologers as crazy or even crooks. In fact astrologers are mostly nice

> people who genuinely wish to help others. But the claim they repeatedly make> (astrology is true because based on experience) is simply mistaken -what> they see as its strength (experience) is actually its weakness (no

> controls).> > > > *The case for astrology*> > The case for astrology is that a warm and sympathetic astrologer provides> low-cost non-threatening therapy that is otherwise hard to come by.

You get> emotional comfort, spiritual support, and interesting ideas to stimulate> self-examination. In a dehumanised society astrology provides ego support at> a very low price. Where else can you get this sort of thing these

days?> In short, there is more to astrology than being true or false. But note the> dilemma - to get the benefits you have to believe in something that is> untrue. The same dilemma can apply elsewhere as in psychotherapy

and even> religion, so it is not unique to astrology. Nevertheless it presents an> ethical problem that astrologers have generally failed to recognise let> alone resolve> > Please see " *Journal of Consciousness Studies* 10 (6-7), 175-198, a

long> scholarly article of 24 pages and 85 references. Tests of *time twins* and> of astrologers " > > --> http://www.imprint.co.uk/pdf/Dean.pdf

> > > To start off the debate, I am including the proceedings> > from " Current Science " Journal on this topic.> > *Indian scientists on Vedic

astrology*> *Thirty comments from Current Science*> > *Abstract* -- In 2001 the University Grants Commision (UGC) in India decided> to provide funds for courses in astrology and palmistry at Indian

> universities. The decision provoked outrage and controversy in the pages of> the prestigious Indian science journal *Current Science*. Of thirty> comments, most of them from scientists in university departments or

research> institutes, about half dismissed astrology as a pseudo-science, about half> of the rest felt decisive tests were needed, and the rest felt there was> nothing wrong with funding something that the majority of Indian

people> believed in. In chronological order, the authors and their comments are> briefly as follows, starting with editor P.Balaram:> *2000, Volume 79, issue 9*> Balaram -- UGC should not promote astrology and palmistry

courses.> > *2001, Volume 80, issues 6-11*> Ganeshaiah -- But tests not decisive, more are needed to assess claims.> Balaram -- Evidence is overwhelmingly against, UGC lacks credibility.

> Pal -- No respectable university should accept UGC's offer.> Sitaram and 29 others -- Our apathy means protest may be too late.> Murthy -- Opposition to astrology is based on sensible science.> Chandrashekaran -- No defence is needed when so many people believe.

> Rao -- Why haven't scientists protested? Astrology is not a science.> Khare -- Vedic astrology has not been scientifically validated.> Virk -- Guru Nanak rejected astrology in 15th century. So should we.

> Tiwari -- Big science is suppressing new ideas and should be challenged.> Sashidhar -- Astrology is a pseudo-science, scientists will ignore it.> > *2001, Volume 81, issues 1-3*> Narasimhan -- The

ancients were good observers, give their ideas a chance.> Karanth -- Astrology relates to gems, and mineralogy is part of science.> Seshadri & Kathiravan -- Most Indians believe in astrology, so

honour it.> Chattopadhyay -- Some scientists secretly believe, so don't blame public.> Subbarao -- Faith is often needed to overcome fear and uncertainty.> Chopra -- Funding psychological props is OK if other needs not

affected.> Devakumar -- Vedas say nothing about astrology, so *Vedic* is a misnomer.> Valluri -- Astrology fails to meet the methodology of a science.> Gautham -- Most consult an astrologer if pressed, so struggle is

futile.> Balasundaram -- Tests of astrology are indecisive, it needs demystifying.> Tiwari -- Vedic = beyond sensory experience. How can Vedic be science?> Gupta -- Astrology may be a science-like knowledge but more

difficult.>

Mandal -- We either accept astrology and reject evolution, or the reverse.> Ganeshaiah -- Issue is nonsense vs good information, not arts vs sciences.> Abhyankar -- Astrologers offer only therapy by talking. Why be

fooled?> Narlikar (review of *Astrology: Believe it or not?*) -- Not! Recommended!> Sitaraman -- Science not threatened by Vedic astrology or any other.> At which point the debate was closed by the editor. *Three years

later:*> > *2004, Volume 87, issue 8*> Chattopadhyay -- Government reaffirms UGC proposal. But we stay silent.> > > Opinions on Astrology from Files section of SOA (courtesy Sanat ji)

> Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Mobile. Try it now.

April 26, 2008

Astrology a faith or fiction

Resp. Krishna Ji,

Namaskar,

I know that everybody is responding when he may be free. So don't

worry and take your time.

Yes you are right that

>I am not here to support or oppose any astrologer or any community

whether they are are astrologers or the ones who are questioning

astrologers.<.

Perhaps your above stand is in response of my reference SOA 6

principal of horasara in file section. But let me clear that if you

are studying astrology since last 3-4 years and it I am studying it

since last 40 years, then actually we were lured by predictive

astrology founded by astrologers before 1000 + years. Hence if you

can not support the founders of astrology then how could you push

your self-designed principle based on that primitive information. It

is not a question of supporting and opposing some thing. It is the

principle, which is under analysis and not X or Y.

Regarding your comment " This is contrary to your conclusion that my

theory is based on defective raw materials. I am wondering from where

did you actually draw such conclusion from my post. " I will like to

draw your attention on my earlier statement that astrological

principles are basically founded on sign lord, aspect, friendship,

exalted etc and these are the basic principles (raw material) and

from these principles you are free to derive any conclusion as you

like. Your principle regarding diabetes is also using this building

block. How you can say that I have questioned your theory even

without checking it. Actually I was waiting for some comments from

the members. As I am still waiting for some comments on your

principle of colour of planets. I am giving a brief about that too,

though I have analyzed and will come out shortly.

Your labour in studying and informing about diabetes is good. Your

principle using basic principles of aspect, debilitated, sign lord

etc. is as follows

In Type 1 diabetes when cells of the pancreas destroyed.

To summarize, the Astrological Symptoms for Type 1 Diabetes are:

1 Afflicted Venus (connected to a dusthana, or debilitated or

retrograde, or in Papakaratari ….)

2 Afflicted Mars (connected to a dusthana, or debilitated or

retrograde, or in Papakaratari ….)

3 Afflicted 5th house/lord

4 Rahu afflicts both Venus and Mars in one way or the other

5 Venus, Mars and Rahu are connected to one another, in some way or

the other in Rasi, D6 and D30

Type 2 diabetes results when body fails to properly use insulin.

To summarize, the Astrological Symptoms for Type 2 Diabetes are:

1 Afflicted Jupiter (connected to a dusthana, or debilitated or

retrograde, or in Papakaratari ….)

2 Afflicted Mars (connected to a dusthana, or debilitated or

retrograde, or in Papakaratari ….)

3 Sani/Rahu afflicts both Jupiter and Mars in one way or the other

4 Jupiter, Mars and Sani/Rahu are connected to one another, in some

way or the other in Rasi, D6 and D30

and all 5 and 4 conditions must be agree for a particular diabetes.

For further comment in the principle I will like to know that what

you want to say

1 by …….. after papakartari (refer 1,2)

2 by in one way or the other (refer 4)

3 by in some way or the other (refer 5). Please elaborate these

conditions too.

4 you have not included sani in point 4 (type1) like point 3 (type

2). By this do you want to say that if venus and mars is afflicted by

sani then it will not be taken as afflicted for type 1. Am I right or

you have missed some thing.

5 by house/lord (typ1 – 3) or sani/rahu (type 2 – 3, 4). You mean to

say both or either.

6 Set planet is afflicted or not in your principle.

7 if it is with enemy planet then planet is afflicted or not in your

principle.

8 if it is in such a sign whose element is inimical to the element of

the planet then planet is afflicted or not in your principle.

9 by rasi. Is it ascendant based horo. or it includes Moon based

Horo. too (As rasi is concluded on Moon) or it is Sun based horo

(western).

10 Connected to dusthana means when venus etc is in 6 or 8 or12; or

planet is with the lord of 6 or 8 or12 ; or in the house of lord of

6.8.12; or in the constellation (based on dasha) of lord of 6 or 8

or12 ; or when it has aspect on 6 or 8 or12 house; or aspected by the

lord of 6,8 or 12. Am I right. Is there any other conditions, which

you may like to refer.

11 For Paapkartari yog which planet may be included. Sun, Saturn,

Mars, Rahu, Ketu, Moon of darknight. Do you want to include

debilitated or retrograde Jupiter, Venus, Mercury as paap grah or any

other clerification.

12 by aspect in examples. Is it only full aspect or ¼ aspect as used

in Northern system is also included or it includes aspect of KP

systems too.

13 which is the aspect of rahu for your principle. Is it only 7th or

some other or includes KP aspects too.

14 which ascendant will be applicable. I mean to say North Indian or

or KP.

15 what should be the value of ayanansh.

16 what should be the threshold age for verification of the principle.

I think it is too much for first phase. By the way according to your

estimate what would be the percentage of people suffering from

diabetes? Next analysis will follow.

Regarding colour of planets you have stated that it is based on

VIBGYOR as follows :-

FOR SATURN, (Indigo/violet), VENUS (blue), MERCURY (green), jupitter

(yellow), Sun (orange), Mars (red) respectively. Now give off white

to Moon and place inbetween and give Ultraviolet to Rahu and Infra

red to Ketu.

According to you characterization, friendship, malefic is also based

on above setting. Am I right?

I will like to have comments of the members if any. My comments will

follow shortly.

Thanks,

Yours truly,

Sanat

, Krishnamurthy Seetharama

<krishna_1998 wrote:

>

> Dear Sanat ji,

>

> I am not here to fully dedicate my time at your beck and call. I

respond only when I am free.

>

> Looks like you have some very wrong notions. I am not here to

support or oppose any astrologer or any community whether they are

are astrologers or the ones who are questioning astrologers. I am not

interested in that. I am only trying to present my experience. I am

not here to take responsibility for what the whole astrologer

community does.

>

> I was a curious observer of Astrogy until a few years back. I

started reading and understanding it only since 3-4 years back. In my

limited experience, what I have discovered is the principles wrongly

applied are the cause for the debacles. Hence, in my conclusion, the

raw materials are not defective. It is the application that is

defective. This is contrary to your conclusion that my theory is

based on defective raw materials. I am wondering from where did you

actually draw such conclusion from my post. You seem to be blessed

with flawed logic! You have already declared that my building

(theory) is flawed without even ehcking it out. This indicates your

mindset and your disrespect to an unbiased dialog even though you

claim that you are unbiased and only trying to explore things

rationally. I am really surprised by your attitude.

>

> Ha, Ha, Hi, Hi.

>

> Hope you will not take my comments personally.

>

> Good bye, and all the best to your efforts.

>

> Regards,

> Krishna

>

sanat2221 <sanatkumar_jain wrote:

> Astrology a faith or fiction

>

> Resp. Krishna Ji,

> Namaskar,

> Thanks for your turning up (But is it necessary to remind for your

> appearance? Hi Hi. I think you will continue to hook and teach us).

> I think your planets are not working properly and there is some

> technical problem with the planets, who always classify your msg.

as

> spam. You are a software Eng. So correct their programming (just

> joking).

>

> Yes, definitely I will clear your msg. I also find a msg on my

email

> which I am including, below my msg. Actual comment on your link

will

> follow. But it would have been better if you upload the blog in

file

> section for the benefit of the members in general and for the

benefit

> of future members. I have gone through your earlier link regarding

> colour of planets. But I could not reply due to rush of points and

> your absence from the screen and of course I am also slow and think

> on every msg. So please continue and if you want then I am ready to

> offer my comments on your earlier discovery regarding colours,

which

> is definitely not in your favour.

>

> You have indicated your views abt the diabetes and blood group with

> your observation that astrology can be as good as any other modern

> science. Hope people realize this.

> But first of all we must realize (and this forum is working on that

> line in general) that any conclusion either it may be diabetes,

blood

> group or predictive principles included in lot of books or

principles

> created by astrologers themselves (including your would be

principle)

> are basically founded on sign lord, aspect, friendship, exalted and

> dasha (beside some supporting principles). These are the basic

> principles and from these principles you are free to derive any

> conclusion as you like. Thus when this is the building block of

> entire predictive astrology then is it not necessary and essential

to

> know their validity, how they were created and whether they are

> supported by our sages / ved or it is just a manipulated form where

> every body has created his own principles, just to fall

> psychologically.

>

> Yes, you are right that

> " If a building collapses, you can not call Civil Engineering as

fake!

> It is just incorrect application that caused the debacle. Astrology

> has seen many such debacles due to non-standardization of the

> theory, many pseudo scientists. Another issue is inaccurate birth

> details that we work with. Once we work on this and find a good

fix,

> this can be as good as any other modern science. "

>

> But by this you are indirectly admitting that

> 1 since primitive time every astrologer is working with inaccurate

> birth details and whatever he is concluding is not more then a

> coincidence and astrologers are still befooling.

>

> 2 by the time you or say some one else will find a good fix till

then

> every astrologer is free to cheat others and innocent public may be

> asked to live with weak building of predictive astrology and till

> then everybody may continue to publicize from media to forum to

> conference to ……. and so on that astrology is a science.

>

> I think it is not a good tactics. First of all we must examine as

to

> whether there is some science in it and if you know that is wrong

> then you may immediately alert the public and when in future you

find

> some thing worthwhile only then you must ask public to follow that

> discovery. Not before that.

> 3 there is debacles due to non-standardization of the theory.

>

> Still you are following and concluding some sort of illness

> from non-standard theory.

>

> 4 astrologer are incorrectly applying the theory hence astrologers

> are responsible and not the principle.

>

> Even after 2000 years having so much modern complicated knowledge

if

> any astrologer is not able to correctly apply the principle then

why

> you are supporting such astrologers. Simply, educate the people

that

> astrological principles are correct but not a single astrologer is

> able to correctly apply these principles hence forget it and wait

for

> some one who can correctly apply the principle. Because naturally

you

> will not ask lot of Engineers to waste your building material for

> constructing a building which is going to be collapsed. Certainly

you

> will stop the work and either searches a good engineer or try to

find

> the defect in the material.

> Though astrological principles are not difficult to apply refer SOA

> 6_______ in file section. Is it actually a tough principle.

>

> If you and other learned astrologer are not able to defend and

> explain their stand then this forum will continue to examine the

> material (principle) for alerting the public to be away from

> astrologers to save their lifetime earning of education, experience

> etc. ……and money of-course.

>

> I can at the most offer my good wishes to you to construct a

building

> (conclusion of diabetes, bloodgroup etc.) from worst material (sign

> lord, aspect, friendship, exalted and dasha etc.), which is not

> working since 2000 years.

>

> I may like to inform you that nothing in the msg is against you

> personally and it is totally academic.

>

> I will like to say that no body is challenging any stand of any

> member, Because we in the forum are not for fighting but we are

just

> exchanging our views on astrology; and there is nothing personal.

> Even after interaction, everyone has liberty either to amend his

> views or may continue with his old stand. I hope members will agree

> with my views and try their best to maintain cordial relation even

> after hot discussion.

>

> Thanks and waiting for your more hooking.

>

> Yours truly,

> Sanat

>

> Members may offer their comment and it will be more useful if they

> examine the validity of basic principles. For this examination they

> have to find out the circumstances, knowledge and procedure adopted

> for formulation of the principles, analysis, changes required if

any

> in view of modern science and so on.

> Sh. SB ji , why are you not offering your comments on various

points