BHAV SPASHTA IN LALKITAB BhooshanPriya Jee

[Guest guest]

Dear BhooshanJee,

 

 

If this were a classical astrology forum, I would be putting my ignorance on public display by saying that Bhavspashta/Chalit etc. are un-needed techniques. However, on this particular forum, we wish to discuss strictly LalKitab based astrology. You and others vouching for a "more accurate means of calculating planetary position" seem to be missing that most important point. Kindly read on.

 

When it comes to mathematical calculations, LalKitab tries to keep things as simple as possible. All are familiar with the lines "...raashee ChhoD nakshattar bhoolaa, na hee koyee panchaang liyaa..." so it has no provision (and need) for any of the "advanced and refined techniques." LalKitab has basically been written for someone with minimal mathematical knowledge and there is NO need to go beyond the very basic chart also known as Rashi Chart. I fully appreciate your concern for going the extra mile to get the most accurate planetary position (and thus use grahaspashta/chalit.) However, even in classical astrology, the Rasi chart and Grahaspasht/Chalit chart are two separate and distinct entities and the Rashi chart does not get discarded in favor of Chalit chart. You are ignoring the Rasi

chart altogether and are jumping on to Grahaspashta directly. This makes the horoscope (and thus the interpretation and the remedial measures) totally inaccurate when viewed in the light of LalKitab principles.

 

LalKitab was formulated with simplicity in mind - there are no esoteric calculations involved ever. The approach of taking into consideration garhaspashta or chalit is like using aviation grade high octane fuel for a car designed to run on diesel fuel - it either won't work or will cause serious damage to the engine.

 

I have been fortunate enough to have my family's horoscopes cast and verified by Pandit Roop Chand Jee himself (and later Pt Som Dutt Jee has cast/verified/analyzed numerous horoscopes for my friends and family ) - never have they ever used bhavspashta techniques because there is no need for it this ilm. When in doubt about a certain planet, techniques similar to "Tewe kee aasaan durustee" (1952 edition - Farmaan 12) are used. This approach is non-mathematical and is based on matching the actual "haalaat."

 

Interestingly, I tried experimenting with your favorite technique on many of the horoscopes that Pt Roop Chand Jee had charted for me and had authenticated/verified (including my own.) In my own horoscope, when I apply Bhavspasht, two planets move out to different houses, and I know that according to LalKitab principles (and what has happened to me throughout my life) the move is not at all justified for my Janma/Rashi chart.

 

I decided to take an impartial case to test my hypothesis further by taking a concrete example from LalKitab (1952) that all can verify for themselves (ArunSanhita may have it too, I don't know.) On page 195, a horoscope has been discussed. This was charted, verified and analyzed by Pt Roop Chand Jee. To create this chart, I used a software program (don't have the 1936 almanac to go that far back in time) to calculate the Rashi Chart and the results are as follows:

 

Rasi +----------+| \ Ma / \ / || \ Su / \ / || \

/ \ / || \ / Me \ / || \ / \ / || x Sa As x Ra || /

\ / \ Ju || / \ Ve / \ || / \ / \ || / \ / \ ||

/ \ / \ || x Mo || \ / \ / || \ /

\ / || \ / \ / || \ / \ / || \ / \ / ||Ke

x x || / \ / \ || / \ / \ || / \ / \ ||

/ \ / \ || / \ / \ |+--------+ March 14, 1936 5 AM Lahore Cantt RASHI KUNDALI (Made by Pt Roop Chand Jee in LalKitab 1952 Farmaan Number 12)

 

The above given horoscope matches exactly with the one given in LalKitab.============================================================== Now let us draw a grahaspashta/Chalit chart for the same horoscope. The following chart is given:

 

Bhava/Chalit Chakra D-1 (B)+--------+| \ Sa / \ / || \ Su / \ / || \ / \ /

|| \ / Me \ / || \ / \ / ||Ma x As x Ra Ju || / \ / \ ||

/ \ Ve / \ || / \ / \ || / \ 11 / \ || / \ / \

|| x Mo || \ / \ / || \ / \ / || \ / \ /

|| \ / \ / || \ / \ / ||Ke x x || / \ / \

|| / \ / \ || / \ / \ || / \ / \ || / \ / \

|+------+ CHALIT/BHAV SPASHTA

Mars moves to the THIRD from the SECOND houseSaturn moves to the SECOND from the first.

 

Do you think that the second horoscope would be more accurate per LalKitab methodology? Please do keep in mind that the Rasi chart has been charted, verified and published by Pt Roop Chand Jee himself. I can produce more examples from LalKitab (so can you.)

 

Based on this, one can clearly see that the bhavspashata methodology in reference to LalKitab analysis is seriously flawed and the remedial measures based on this faulty charting method are either useless or downright DANGEROUS.

 

I invite everyone's comments on this.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Rajinder Bhatia

=======================================bhooshanpriya <bhooshanpriya wrote:

Dear Bhatia ji,Bhav spashtha is a mathematical technique and like all mathematic techniques is not system specific. It can be used in any system of astrology. You would be aware that astrology has a very well developed mathematics , if some people don't know it , I can't help. I use it because I am familiar with it.A Lagna lasts for two hours {approx}and every body born during those two hours , running into thousands , will have the same planetary positions . But they do not have the same identical lives. The rishis had realized this phenomena and evolved a mathematical technique known as bhav-spashtha. As the name suggests it demarcates the boundaries of a bhav . A planet , while being in the same rasi , could move to another bhav .What you have talked is the transit of planets from one rasi

to another. Bhav spashtha is entirely a different thing. If you had used the technique , you would know.Your taking a `strong exception' to my using a mathematical technique sounded like some one saying ` why do you use a computer for computation and not an abacus?' I can't help if other Lal Kitabists either don't know these techniques or don't use them.Using a mathematical technique to know the boundaries of a bhav , is not mixing the systems. I use bhav spashtha technique to ascertain the boundaries of a bhav for every horoscope I analyze. I do not mix the two systems. I analyze the planets based on the principles of Lal Kitab and devise the upaya for them again based on Lal kitab. As I have said many times before , I use the concepts of traditional astrology for confirmation and refinement . It is all the better if the major points of analysis are confirmed through other systems also . The

possibility of the error of the judgment is minimized if not eliminated altogether.Sincerely,Priya

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[Guest guest]

Dear Rajinder ji,

 

As ever your mail was a valuable source of reference and knowledge. But

respectfully I disagree with you on this. No doubt Lal Kitab was

written as to keep it simplest possible but nowhere is it written that

it can't be/should not be refined or mathematical techniques applied.

In those days when it was written there were no computers or swiss

observatories and calculations were a cumbersome task which is not now.

Therefore a method would have been required which is simple and

effective. Thus Lal KItab was born. But this does not implies that it

can never be developed. It is just like saying that classical texts ask

to cast chart on land after sprinkling Ganga Jal so we do not approve

computer based charts. Is it ? Sir, it has been found by most

revered names of Astrological fraternity that Rasi chart does not give

true results reason being that it is just another divisional chart. It

shows only tendencies and not the complete results. That is why it has

been stressed upon by our great sages to rely on related divisional

charts which is not happening anyway.

Bhava Chalit is a scientific method to refine a chart as Rasi chart

just tells you in which sign a planet is in. It hypothesises that no

matter at what time do you born or degree of ascendant, a Bhava will

start from 0 and will end at 30 degrees of a sign. Is it acceptable ? I

suppose not.

Regarding use of Bhava Chalit in Lal KItab I believe instead of

discarding it at face itself we all should give it a try without any

preset mindset or result. Cause generally we se what we want to see.

Only in this way we could be serving a divine treatise called LAL KITAB.

 

Best regards

 

Jai On 6/6/05, Rajinder Bhatia <rajinderbhatia2002 wrote:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Dear BhooshanJee,

 

 

If this were a classical astrology forum, I would be putting my ignorance on public display by saying that Bhavspashta/Chalit etc. are un-needed techniques. However, on this particular forum, we wish to discuss

strictly LalKitab based astrology. You

and others vouching for a " more accurate means of calculating planetary

position " seem to be missing that most important

point. Kindly read on.

 

When it comes to mathematical

calculations, LalKitab tries to keep things as simple as

possible. All are familiar with the lines " ...raashee ChhoD nakshattar bhoolaa, na hee koyee panchaang liyaa... "

so it has no provision (and need) for any of the " advanced

and refined techniques. " LalKitab has basically been written

for someone with minimal mathematical knowledge and there is NO need to go beyond the very basic chart also known as Rashi Chart. I

fully appreciate your concern for going the extra mile to get

the most accurate planetary position (and thus use grahaspashta/chalit.) However, even in classical astrology, the Rasi chart and Grahaspasht/Chalit chart are two separate and distinct entities and the Rashi chart does not get discarded in favor of Chalit chart. You are ignoring the Rasi

chart altogether and are jumping on to Grahaspashta directly. This makes

the horoscope (and thus the interpretation and the remedial measures)

totally inaccurate when viewed in the light of LalKitab

principles.

 

LalKitab was formulated with simplicity in mind - there are no esoteric calculations involved ever. The approach of taking into consideration garhaspashta or chalit

 

is like using aviation grade high octane fuel for a car designed

to run on diesel fuel - it either won't work or will cause serious

damage to the engine.

 

I have been fortunate enough to

have my family's horoscopes cast and verified by Pandit Roop

Chand Jee himself (and later Pt Som Dutt Jee has cast/verified/analyzed

numerous horoscopes for my friends and family ) - never have they

ever used bhavspashta techniques because there is no need for it this ilm. When in doubt about a certain planet, techniques similar to " Tewe kee aasaan durustee "

(1952 edition - Farmaan 12) are

used. This approach is non-mathematical and is based on

matching the actual " haalaat. "

 

Interestingly, I tried experimenting

with your favorite technique on many of the horoscopes that Pt

Roop Chand Jee had charted for me and had authenticated/verified

(including my own.) In my own horoscope, when I apply Bhavspasht,

two planets move out to different houses, and I know that

according to LalKitab principles (and what has happened to

me throughout my life) the move is not at all justified for

my Janma/Rashi chart.

 

I decided to take an impartial case to test my hypothesis further by taking

a concrete example from LalKitab (1952) that all can verify for

themselves (ArunSanhita may have it too, I don't know.) On

page 195, a horoscope has been discussed. This was charted,

verified and analyzed by Pt Roop Chand Jee. To create this

chart, I used a software program (don't have the 1936 almanac

to go that far back in time) to calculate the Rashi Chart

and the results are as follows:

 

Rasi

+----------+| \ Ma /

\

/ || \

Su

/

\

/ ||

\

/

\

/ ||

\

/

Me

\

/ ||

\

/

\ / || x Sa As x Ra ||

/

\

/ \ Ju ||

/ \

Ve

/

\ ||

/

\

/

\ ||

/

\

/

\ ||

/

\

/

\ ||

x Mo

||

\

/

\

/ ||

\

/

\

/ ||

\

/

\

/ ||

\

/

\

/ ||

\

/

\

/ ||Ke

x

x ||

/

\

/

\ ||

/

\

/

\ ||

/

\

/

\ ||

/

\

/

\ ||

/

\

/

\ |+--------+ March 14, 1936 5 AM Lahore Cantt RASHI KUNDALI (Made by Pt Roop Chand Jee in

LalKitab 1952 Farmaan Number 12)

 

The above given horoscope matches exactly with the one given in LalKitab.============================================================== Now let us draw a

grahaspashta/Chalit chart for the same horoscope. The following chart is given:

 

Bhava/Chalit

Chakra

D-1 (B)+--------+| \ Sa

/

\

/ || \

Su

/

\

/ ||

\

/

\

/ ||

\ /

Me \

/ ||

\

/

\

/ ||Ma

x

As x

Ra Ju ||

/

\

/ \ ||

/ \

Ve /

\ ||

/

\

/

\ ||

/

\ 11

/

\ ||

/

\

/

\ ||

x

Mo ||

\

/

\

/ ||

\

/

\

/ ||

\

/

\

/ ||

\

/

\

/ ||

\

/

\ / ||Ke

x

x ||

/

\

/ \ ||

/

\

/

\ ||

/

\

/

\ ||

/

\

/

\ ||

/

\

/

\ |+------+ CHALIT/BHAV SPASHTA

Mars moves to the THIRD from the SECOND houseSaturn moves to the SECOND from the first.

 

Do you think that the second horoscope

would be more accurate per LalKitab methodology? Please

do keep in mind that the Rasi chart has been charted,

verified and published by Pt Roop Chand Jee himself. I can

produce more examples from LalKitab (so can you.)

 

Based on this, one can clearly see that the bhavspashata methodology in reference to LalKitab analysis

 

is seriously flawed and the remedial measures based on this

faulty charting method are either useless or downright

DANGEROUS.

 

I invite everyone's comments on this.

 

Respectfully submitted,

Rajinder Bhatia

=======================================bhooshanpriya <bhooshanpriya

wrote:

Dear Bhatia ji,Bhav spashtha is a mathematical technique and like all mathematic techniques is not system specific. It can be used in any system of astrology. You would be aware that astrology has a very well developed mathematics , if some people don't know it , I can't help. I use it because I am familiar with it.A Lagna lasts for two hours {approx}and every body born during those two hours , running into thousands , will have the same planetary positions . But they do not have the same identical lives. The rishis had realized this phenomena and evolved a mathematical technique known as bhav-spashtha. As the name suggests it demarcates the boundaries of a bhav . A planet , while being in the same rasi , could move to another bhav .What you have talked is the transit of planets from one rasi

to another. Bhav spashtha is entirely a different thing. If you had used the technique , you would know.Your taking a `strong exception' to my using a mathematical technique sounded like some one saying ` why do you use a computer for computation and not an abacus?' I can't help if other Lal Kitabists either don't know these techniques or don't use them.Using a mathematical technique to know the boundaries of a bhav , is not mixing the systems. I use bhav spashtha technique to ascertain the boundaries of a bhav for every horoscope I analyze. I do not mix the two systems. I analyze the planets based on the principles of Lal Kitab and devise the upaya for them again based on Lal kitab. As I have said many times before , I use the concepts of traditional astrology for confirmation and refinement . It is all the better if the major points of analysis are confirmed through other systems also . The

possibility of the error of the judgment is minimized if not eliminated altogether.Sincerely,Priya

Mail Mobile Take Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.

 

 

 

[Guest guest]

namaskar bhatia saahab and priya ji,

 

how are you.

 

well I beg you to plz pardon me being senior to me for disagreeing

with you on this post,well I have my reasons as follows(No intentions

to offend you)---

 

1.I know that this forum is solely for LK and should contain LK

concepts only, but LK is itself part of the bigger system know as

INDIAN ASTROLOGY,its unique but still cant have an independent

existence out of morms of indian astrology, and even in the begining

Pt Joshi has made it clear that LK fully respects IA.

now yes here I agree with you that Bhava Sphootas are not important

in LK, but LK itself suggests the use of astro-palmistric methods to

find the exact bhava of a planet, so here the method is different but

the point is to make the horoscope accurate infact 'exact'.

 

Now online analysis is limited in appraoch, how can we confirm bhava

positions when we dont have palm prints available with us.

 

2.Sir, we all know that no system is perfect not even LK,sometimes

you just cant neglect the very basic rules/applications of vedic

while analysing charts even when try to stick to LK only.

 

3. I agree that Lagna chart matters most, but in actual happenings

does it,for had this the case we would have atleast 65*2*2=260

similar natives every month in INDIA.

 

but I also think that before Chalit or Sphootas, importance is to

NAVAMSHA and other divisonal charts, so here I disagree with priya ji

as well.

 

Chalit never gives the right picture mam, and how could it when as

many as 6 different BHAVA SPASHTA computational methodlogy are being

used in softwares,sripati is regarded best but in my experience it

doesnt give true results,bhava equal system is better , but still in

some charts it works in others it doesnt.

 

and mam Bhatia sir is certainly not talking about transits,transit

of planets means changing of signs not of house, he means houses here.

 

I am suprised to read how someone of your calibre can miss this

thing.

 

Use of abacus VS computer, well this is again good topic for debate,

my reply is we should never discard the basics for latest technology,

because I know there are people who can count on abacus faster than

computers in this age as well, I mean to say that The masters of

astro math dont need a computer even today,if they dont use it it

doesnt mean that they dont know it, so your comment that many experts

dont know how to calculate bhava sphashta and only you know , is

extremey arrogant.

 

 

4. sir,you gave examples of your chart and other one as well, but I

wrote it works sometimes, sometimes doesnt.A planet can not ever

change a house completely.

 

For eg,lets suppose lagna is 28 degrees and a planet in any bhava

has moved only 4 degrees in sign in 4 th house, now simple method

tells us to believe that planet being in that sign only has moved to

3rd house(yes again the signs,their occupation,degrees,bhava

starting,madhya/cusps,ending must be calculated as well but I wont go

in details)

 

 

But still I maintain that the planet wont leave giving rsults of 4

th house completely, though it will give results more of 3 rd house,

but still this may/may not be the case.(I can explain this point

furthur stating examples in next post if you say)

 

 

Lastly,I think this post of mine would settle the issue, as I have

agreed/disagreed with both of you on some points, as nobody is

totally right/wrong.

 

Its better if we dont debate and concentrate on constructive worthy

work.

 

 

Sincerely

 

NISHANT

 

 

lalkitab , Rajinder Bhatia

<rajinderbhatia2002> wrote:

>

> Dear BhooshanJee,

>

>

> If this were a classical astrology forum, I would be putting my

ignorance on public display by saying that Bhavspashta/Chalit etc.

are un-needed techniques. However, on this particular forum, we wish

to discuss strictly LalKitab based astrology. You and others

vouching for a " more accurate means of calculating planetary

position " seem to be missing that most important point. Kindly read

on.

>

> When it comes to mathematical calculations, LalKitab tries to keep

things as simple as possible. All are familiar with the

lines " ...raashee ChhoD nakshattar bhoolaa, na hee koyee panchaang

liyaa... " so it has no provision (and need) for any of the " advanced

and refined techniques. " LalKitab has basically been written for

someone with minimal mathematical knowledge and there is NO need to

go beyond the very basic chart also known as Rashi Chart. I fully

appreciate your concern for going the extra mile to get the most

accurate planetary position (and thus use grahaspashta/chalit.)

However, even in classical astrology, the Rasi chart and

Grahaspasht/Chalit chart are two separate and distinct entities and

the Rashi chart does not get discarded in favor of Chalit chart. You

are ignoring the Rasi chart altogether and are jumping on to

Grahaspashta directly. This makes the horoscope (and thus the

interpretation and the remedial measures) totally inaccurate when

viewed in the light of

> LalKitab principles.

>

> LalKitab was formulated with simplicity in mind - there are no

esoteric calculations involved ever. The approach of taking into

consideration garhaspashta or chalit is like using aviation grade

high octane fuel for a car designed to run on diesel fuel - it either

won't work or will cause serious damage to the engine.

>

> I have been fortunate enough to have my family's horoscopes cast

and verified by Pandit Roop Chand Jee himself (and later Pt Som Dutt

Jee has cast/verified/analyzed numerous horoscopes for my friends and

family ) - never have they ever used bhavspashta techniques because

there is no need for it this ilm. When in doubt about a certain

planet, techniques similar to " Tewe kee aasaan durustee " (1952

edition - Farmaan 12) are used. This approach is non-mathematical

and is based on matching the actual " haalaat. "

>

> Interestingly, I tried experimenting with your favorite technique

on many of the horoscopes that Pt Roop Chand Jee had charted for me

and had authenticated/verified (including my own.) In my own

horoscope, when I apply Bhavspasht, two planets move out to different

houses, and I know that according to LalKitab principles (and what

has happened to me throughout my life) the move is not at all

justified for my Janma/Rashi chart.

>

> I decided to take an impartial case to test my hypothesis further

by taking a concrete example from LalKitab (1952) that all can

verify for themselves (ArunSanhita may have it too, I don't know.)

On page 195, a horoscope has been discussed. This was charted,

verified and analyzed by Pt Roop Chand Jee. To create this chart, I

used a software program (don't have the 1936 almanac to go that far

back in time) to calculate the Rashi Chart and the results are as

follows:

>

>

> Rasi

> +----------+

> | \ Ma / \ / |

> | \ Su / \ / |

> | \ / \ / |

> | \ / Me \ / |

> | \ / \ / |

> | x Sa As x Ra |

> | / \ / \ Ju |

> | / \ Ve / \ |

> | / \ / \ |

> | / \ / \ |

> | / \ / \ |

> | x Mo |

> | \ / \ / |

> | \ / \ / |

> | \ / \ / |

> | \ / \ / |

> | \ / \ / |

> |Ke x x |

> | / \ / \ |

> | / \ / \ |

> | / \ / \ |

> | / \ / \ |

> | / \ / \ |

> +--------+

>

> March 14, 1936

> 5 AM Lahore Cantt

> RASHI KUNDALI (Made by Pt Roop Chand Jee in

> LalKitab 1952 Farmaan Number 12)

>

> The above given horoscope matches exactly with the one given in

LalKitab.

> ==============================================================

> Now let us draw a grahaspashta/Chalit chart for the same

horoscope. The following chart is given:

>

>

> Bhava/Chalit Chakra D-1 (B)

> +--------+

> | \ Sa / \ / |

> | \ Su / \ / |

> | \ / \ / |

> | \ / Me \ / |

> | \ / \ / |

> |Ma x As x Ra Ju |

> | / \ / \ |

> | / \ Ve / \ |

> | / \ / \ |

> | / \ 11 / \ |

> | / \ / \ |

> | x Mo |

> | \ / \ / |

> | \ / \ / |

> | \ / \ / |

> | \ / \ / |

> | \ / \ / |

> |Ke x x |

> | / \ / \ |

> | / \ / \ |

> | / \ / \ |

> | / \ / \ |

> | / \ / \ |

> +------+

>

> CHALIT/BHAV SPASHTA

> Mars moves to the THIRD from the SECOND house

> Saturn moves to the SECOND from the first.

>

> Do you think that the second horoscope would be more accurate per

LalKitab methodology? Please do keep in mind that the Rasi chart has

been charted, verified and published by Pt Roop Chand Jee himself. I

can produce more examples from LalKitab (so can you.)

>

> Based on this, one can clearly see that the bhavspashata

methodology in reference to LalKitab analysis is seriously flawed and

the remedial measures based on this faulty charting method are either

useless or downright DANGEROUS.

>

> I invite everyone's comments on this.

>

> Respectfully submitted,

> Rajinder Bhatia

> =======================================

> bhooshanpriya <bhooshanpriya> wrote:

> Dear Bhatia ji,

>

> Bhav spashtha is a mathematical technique and like all mathematic

> techniques is not system specific. It can be used in any system

of

> astrology. You would be aware that astrology has a very well

> developed mathematics , if some people don't know it , I can't

help.

> I use it because I am familiar with it.

>

> A Lagna lasts for two hours {approx}and every body born during

those

> two hours , running into thousands , will have the same planetary

> positions . But they do not have the same identical lives. The

rishis

> had realized this phenomena and evolved a mathematical technique

> known as bhav-spashtha. As the name suggests it demarcates the

> boundaries of a bhav . A planet , while being in the same rasi ,

> could move to another bhav .

>

> What you have talked is the transit of planets from one rasi to

> another. Bhav spashtha is entirely a different thing. If you had

used

> the technique , you would know.

>

> Your taking a `strong exception' to my using a mathematical

technique

> sounded like some one saying ` why do you use a computer for

> computation and not an abacus?' I can't help if other Lal Kitabists

> either don't know these techniques or don't use them.

> Using a mathematical technique to know the boundaries of a bhav ,

is

> not mixing the systems. I use bhav spashtha technique to ascertain

> the boundaries of a bhav for every horoscope I analyze.

>

> I do not mix the two systems. I analyze the planets based on the

> principles of Lal Kitab and devise the upaya for them again based

on

> Lal kitab. As I have said many times before , I use the concepts

of

> traditional astrology for confirmation and refinement . It is all

the

> better if the major points of analysis are confirmed through other

> systems also . The possibility of the error of the judgment is

> minimized if not eliminated altogether.

>

> Sincerely,

>

> Priya

>

>

>

>

 

> Mail Mobile

> Take Mail with you! Check email on your mobile phone.