Relocating & Ciro

[Guest guest]

Hello Therese:

 

The main thing Ciro was saying about the 1st house is that one really

needs to avoid having the SR ASC fall into the 12th, 1st, or 6th of the

Natal. At least that seemed to be one of his biggest points. I am

charmed by his discovery of this nuanced portion of an overall approach

- I'll be keeping an eye on it. My favorite way of looking at an SR

places the SR chart in the inner and the natal (or natal of residence)

in the outer part of a BiWheel. Sometimes I'll look at a TriWheel,

adding P2s to become the middle ring. So, in order to check on Ciro's

ideas, I'll have to do the BiWheel with the natal on the

inner........not too hard to do.

 

He has found (as I have) that simply being at a properly relocated place

at the time of the SR seems to lock that chart in for the coming year.

 

He dramatically downplays many of the basics I've held to for many

years. For me that is troubling. He writes in a refreshingly strong

voice that borders on being bombastic.......makes one think of a natal

Moon Square an OOB Mars.

 

As for the Tropical vs. Sidereal debate . . . there are actually 3

potential answers: Tropical, Sidereal, or both. I am a both person. I

have seen time and time again that both work. Granted, our human nature

wants to know which is THE correct and proper one. I find that in order

to work with both, I need to settle into a comfortable kind of

'not-knowingness' - it seems to be almost a Zen kinda thing. It

requires an ability to hold the tension between apparent

inconsistencies. IMO, this is not dissimilar to the question of which

house system to use. I find it more comfortable to approach these

issues asking the question of what does a given chart presentation bring

in the way of a gift (or promise).

 

Over the years I've spent some time thinking about the Two Skies and how

they were at a given point in time the same - and then began to evolve

into two distinct constructs. I wonder if at that 'point-of-beginning'

there was not a kind of a wrinkle in time that carried with it the

opportunity for birthing a duality from a singularity.

 

Warmly, John

====================================

Therese Hamilton wrote:

>

>

> At 03:29 AM 8/9/09 -0000, Dave Monroe wrote:

> >

> >When we consider the words of Ciro Discepolo we also have to consider one

> other important fact: All of his experience is based on Tropical Solar

> Returns! If we were to cast all of his charts in either the Sidereal or

> the precession-corrected Tropical formats, all of his chart's planets

> would

> be in different houses due to the difference in the timing of the return

> chart. Isn't that a disturbing thought?

>

> Hi Dave,

>

> I'll just interject a short comment here, not wishing to interrupt your

> conversation with John. Yes, the difference in timing is a disturbing

> thought. The reason I haven't read Ciro Discepolo's book is because it's

> all tropical. We can all make techniques work that we're fond of. I'm

> afraid that the zodiac controversy will go on for some time to come.

>

> You wrote:

> " We need to review his writings carefully at a specific level in order to

> determine the validity of his experience when applied to Sidereal or p.c.

> Tropical Solar Returns. THIS WOULD BE A VALUABLE DISCUSSION TO HOLD ON

> THIS LIST. "

>

> Yes. Are you thinking of examples from the book? (I see no reason why the

> first house should be destructive.)

>

> Therese

>

>

>

>

> __________ Información de ESET NOD32 Antivirus, versión de la base de

> firmas de virus 4318 (20090808) __________

>

> ESET NOD32 Antivirus ha comprobado este mensaje.

>

> http://www.eset.com

 

 

__________ Información de ESET NOD32 Antivirus, versión de la base de firmas de

virus 4318 (20090808) __________

 

ESET NOD32 Antivirus ha comprobado este mensaje.

 

http://www.eset.com

[Guest guest]

Hi,

 

Ciro D. is a product of rough and tumble Naples. You didn't see that

mafia Naples movie Gomorra? He was born there and still lives there

probably in some alley but rich now. He has Mars square Mercury,

sextile Sun (on ASC), semi-sextile Pluto (on 2nd Placidian). He has

Neptune very angular for the obsession of only the one way. And this is

a very plus factor for our good Ciro, because he doesn't go futzing

after all the new nonsense that comes all the time dancing down the

highway, so has a big fat book to show for it! A dedicated worker. When

I picked it up for the first time last year it was my immediate

impression that I wouldn't even find that word anywhere inside and that

this man may never have even heard of Sidereal. What's that? He doesn't

need it! Fortunately I don't have a left brain chart that makes it

necessary to actually check that out. His style is sometimes delirium.

The translation seems so funny on and off. but I like it. Nobody else

writes like that. His book wasn't so quickly available in this country

because he wanted the supplier to buy too many copies right off. Money

now. That's in the chart too.

 

Dark*Star

 

==========================================

 

Dr. John D. Andre wrote...............................

[Guest guest]

, Dark Star <pansophia wrote:

Ciro D. is a product of rough and tumble Naples. (snip)

The translation seems so funny on and off. but I like it. Nobody else

> writes like that. His book wasn't so quickly available in this country because

he wanted the supplier to buy too many copies right off. Money now. That's in

the chart too.

>

REPLY:

Doesn't it always seem to come down to money. Few seem to share these days for

the sake of discussion and elevating our practice of astrology. Most want book

sales, lecture fees, and paying clients. I can understand that as long as it

doesn't detract for good astrology or the willingness to help other seekers

along the path.

 

I always buy books on Solar Returns and predictive processes to see what I can

learn. Ciro's book provided a lot of food for thought as well as a " view of his

extensive experience using one narrow set of practices " . I felt, and feel, that

that sum total of statements is fuel for thought and counter-argument that

provides a type of learning experience.

Dave

[Guest guest]

D*S, could you please post Ciro D's birth data?

 

At 11:57 PM 8/9/09 -0700, Dark*Star wrote:

>

>Hi,

>

>Ciro D. is a product of rough and tumble Naples. You didn't see that

>mafia Naples movie Gomorra? He was born there and still lives there

>probably in some alley but rich now. He has Mars square Mercury,

>sextile Sun (on ASC), semi-sextile Pluto (on 2nd Placidian). He has

>Neptune very angular for the obsession of only the one way...

[Guest guest]

A or the willingness to help other seekers along the path.

>

>...I always buy books on Solar Returns and predictive processes to see

what I can learn. Ciro's book provided a lot of food for thought as well

as a " view of his extensive experience using one narrow set of practices " .

I felt, and feel, that that sum total of statements is fuel for thought and

counter-argument that provides a type of learning experience.

-----------------------

 

Dave and all,

 

If the premise if false (non-precession corrected returns), why bother?

(Unless the reader believes that straight tropical returns are somehow

valid. The main differences are the ascendant, houses and the Moon, but

these are biggies.)

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

Therese, the main thrust of Ciro's book was about transits in his solar returns;

transits/aspects to other planets, transits through the houses, Sun transits to

the natal Moon, etc. Since he had such strong feelings/findings in terms of

certain houses being so different in their effects. Curiosity got the best of

me.

 

Dark Star noted some negative qualities of Ciro's views. One such is the

statements he makes about Mars transiting through the 12th house, a chart sector

that he so completely claims is highly negative. Yet, he gives several

paragraphs noting how effective Mars can be in this chart area before going on

to note some few difficult areas. It takes some time to straighten it all out.

 

However, I won't disagree with your basic view that it seems improbable that

extensive data based on a Tropical view is not likely to be appropriate to a

different measuring/timing format. As I said, for me this was a counter-point

review experience. Dave

[Guest guest]

Dave,

 

So Siderealists would question the SR ascendant and M.C. [angularity] and

any transits through solar return houses, but would agree to the

significance of SR transits to natal planets or SR transits affecting natal

houses. (Not reading the book, I don't know what percentage of his examples

discusses each type of transit.)

 

Therese

----

 

At 04:21 PM 8/10/09 -0000, Dave Monroe wrote:

>...the main thrust of Ciro's book was about transits in his solar returns;

transits/aspects to other planets, transits through the houses, Sun

transits to the natal Moon, etc. Since he had such strong

feelings/findings in terms of certain houses being so different in their

effects. Curiosity got the best of me.

>

>Dark Star noted some negative qualities of Ciro's views. One such is the

statements he makes about Mars transiting through the 12th house, a chart

sector that he so completely claims is highly negative...

[Guest guest]

It was late I forgot...

 

Ciro Discepolo

July 17, 1948

5:56 am CEDT

Naples

 

D*S

 

=============================

 

Therese Hamilton wrote:

>

>

> D*S, could you please post Ciro D's birth data?

>

> .

>

>

[Guest guest]

Thanks, D*S.

 

>Ciro Discepolo

>July 17, 1948

>5:56 am CEDT

>Naples