Is There a Correct Zodiac?

[Guest guest]

Hi Everyone,

 

It occurred to me today that there's really only one way that the zodiac

issue might be eventually solved. The proof (if it exists) would have to be

strictly mathematical. There are a number of ways we might use math to

solve the zodiac issue. Others might be able to think of additional ways to

use the math.

 

(1) Timing, which David Monroe has discussed in past posts. At least for

the present the fixed reference frame seems to give better timing results

for transits to natal charts and solar and lunar return charts. However, we

need a lot more work in this area.

 

(2) Large research projects such as Sari has been doing. These projects

give pointers to additional work in specific areas. These studies aren't

conclusive, but are valuable in suggesting further supportive research.

 

(3) Sign boundaries: Let's say that Neptune conjunct the ascendant seems to

give certain results within a sign. Do these results change when a new sign

begins in one zodiac or the other? (The best current source of charts is ADB.)

 

(4) There are various ways to use varga charts, especially the navamsa, to

pinpoint key planets. This would come under more advanced research.

 

(5) We need to find ways of isolating effects in the sign overlap degrees

between the tropical and sidereal zodiacs. These are the final degrees of

tropical signs and the early degrees of sidereal signs. In order to cover

most ayanamsas, we'd need to limit the number of degrees studied.

 

Just a few thoughts.

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

Quoting sign boundaries in Therese's last posting:

(3) Sign boundaries: Let's say that Neptune conjunct the ascendant

seems to

give certain results within a sign. Do these results change when a new

sign

begins in one zodiac or the other? (The best current source of charts

is ADB.)

 

In the Tropical Zodiac, we have just had Pluto enter Capricorn. That

can be checked out in mundane charts. Saturn changes signs often

enough, recently and again in a bit, to check it out in individual's

charts. We could also check when Pluto went into Sidereal Sag awhile

ago for mundane charts. Two possible mini-projects for the list; one

in the mundane field, one in the individual field. Dave

[Guest guest]

At 12:47 AM 1/31/09 -0000, Davae wrote:

>

>In the Tropical Zodiac, we have just had Pluto enter Capricorn. That

>can be checked out in mundane charts. Saturn changes signs often

>enough, recently and again in a bit, to check it out in individual's

>charts. We could also check when Pluto went into Sidereal Sag awhile

>ago for mundane charts. Two possible mini-projects for the list; one

>in the mundane field, one in the individual field. Dave

----------------------

 

Dave, I've tracked Pluto through (sidereal) Scorpio and Sag. I'll see if I

can find my notes and post them here. It may be too early to see the

effects of tropical Capricorn--that is, if there *is* a tropical Capricorn.

Mostly events are better seen in retrospect after some years with Pluto.

 

Saturn would be easier to check since it changes signs often. I stay with

the ascendant for personal charts because every distinct difference I've

seen for my small research projects highlights the ascendant.

 

Therese

[Guest guest]

Hi Therese:

 

You replied to a post of mine on Mark Kincaid's list (Nature's Astrology) about

the

tropical/sidereal zodiac. I am throwing in a 'test of the true zodiac' without

doing much

analysis of my own. But I thought since it was a topic you were discussing on

this list that

you or others might want to examine February 14, which is being heralded as the

beginning of the Age of Aquarius by tropicalists. Putting aside precession for

the moment

(or including it) in the sidereal chart for Feb 14 at 10 AM CST, Jupiter is

exactly conjunct

Rahu at 15* but has actually passed Rahu by about 14 minutes (in Parashara,

ayanamsa,

Lahiri, I think), so technically guru is no longer hemmed in by malefics Rahu

and Ketu.

 

Nevertheless, most Vedic astrologers are viewing the Saturn exchange with Sun in

Capricorn and Saturn in Leo (and through the Sun's transit in Aquarius) along

with Rahu's

conjunction of the planets in Capricorn through mid-February as a potentially

volatile

time. My own view is that the nodal influence will prevail, especially while

Jupiter is with

Rahu in Capricorn through 2009 and then again (on the intensity scale) when the

combination opposes Mars with Ketu later in the year. But for the moment I am

focusing

on the next couple of weeks with the sidereal stellium of planets in Capricorn

and am

questioning whether Jupiter with exalted Venus in Jupiter's house might prevail

in a

positive light over the Rahu conjunctions in Capricorn (giving perhaps the

tropical view an

edge).

 

Here is the tropical interpretation (I am posting the whole article with the

links) and I

would be interested in the response of anyone who might use this tropical

alignment in

comparison with the sidereal transits as one way to 'test the true zodiac.'

-Janna

 

www.greatmystery.org/events/malta09.html.

 

 

The Household Gods by John Watershouse, circa 1880

 

The Dawning of the Age of Aquarius: A Rare Astrological Concentration

Jude Currivan, Ph.D.

 

The most profound spiritual traditions of ancient times perceived the manifest

world, at all

scales of existence as being generated and pervaded by a cosmic trinity of

active, passive

and neutral principles – the divine essence of the masculine, feminine and

child. The Vedic

sages of ancient India saw the male/active life-force energy they called the

pingala and

the female/passive energy they called the ida weaving around and through our

chakras

and the child/neutral energy they called the shushumna as channeling up through

them.

 

When these divine masculine and feminine energies are balanced and so able to

fully

`birth' the divine child energies within us, the ancient sages saw the so-called

kundalini

energy that otherwise lies dormant at the base of the spine, surge through us

enabling us

to fully embody our divine nature.

 

The purpose of the sacred marriage between the divine feminine and masculine

that the

ancient peoples, such as those of Malta, enacted in their temples was thus not

only to

bring cosmic harmony and fertility to their land but within themselves. For such

balance

enables the energetic activation or `birth' of the divine child within us and

the attainment

of enlightenment.

 

When this cosmic trinity of consciousness is harmonized and fully expressed

within us, we

are truly `healed' and `whole' as embodied by the universal symbol of the

caduceus as a

representation of healing from earliest times.

 

For millennia, only the highest adepts understood and have attained such

wholeness. But

elders and mystics around the world are saying that now is the time, when we

have

evolved to a point where we are all able to awaken our inner divinity.

 

This is our spiritual destiny at the dawning of the Age of Aquarius.

 

 

End of This Age, courtesy of San Francisco Sentinel

 

In mid February, we are offered cosmic support to this re-membering of who we

really

are, by a rare astrological concentration that brings together a number of

planets together

with the North Node – denoting higher purpose - in Aquarius. And which energizes

and

inspires the possibility for transcendental breakthrough and healing.

 

We measure our global sense of both space (longitude) and time (universal time -

UT or

GMT) from the prime meridian located at Greenwich, England. We can perceive the

collective influence of this momentous astrological event by looking at the

alignment from

this globally `centered' perspective. When we do, something extraordinary and

exquisite

emerges.

 

At dawn on 14th February the day dedicated to St Valentine, the patron saint of

Love, the

Moon in Libra enters the seventh house of relationships. And Jupiter and Mars

are aligned

in Aquarius in the twelfth house of spiritual transformation.

 

Forty years ago, the intuitive words of a song called Aquarius, brought the

dawning of the

new age into our collective awareness:

 

When the Moon is in the seventh house

And Jupiter aligns with Mars.

Then peace will guide the planets

And love will steer the stars.

 

At dawn on 14th February the Cosmos actually embodies this perfect alignment to

support

our collective manifestation of love and peace and the dawning of the Age of

Aquarius.

 

The Aquarian chart of 14th February reveals an incredible concentration of

cosmic

influences blending with the energies of Aquarius in the twelfth house.

Expansive Jupiter

and energetic Mars are aligned with the higher purpose of the North Node. The

presence

of Chiron the wounded healer offers us the opportunity to heal the schisms that

have

separated us for so long. Neptune emphasizes collective humanitarian movements

and the

co-creation of social justice. And the presence of the radiant Sun enlightens

the entire

alignment.

 

Mercury also in the twelfth house but just beyond the cusp in Capricorn, allies

with

transformational Pluto to communicate and anchor the Shift throughout our global

structures and institutions.

 

The Moon in Libra in the seventh house emphasizes harmonious real –ationships.

 

Venus in Aries in the first house energizes and empowers dynamic co-creativity.

 

And whilst Saturn the great task master in opposition to Uranus the unexpected

awakener

is suggesting an ongoing confrontation as the dregs of the unsustainable old

paradigm

reluctantly give way to the untested hope of the new, their placements in Virgo

and Pisces

brings practical altruism and visionary inspiration to the transition.

 

 

Alignment view from the horizon

 

At 7.25am on 14th February – and for the 18 minutes of the alignment, I invite

you, in the

universal heart, to add your own intention for love and peace and to co-create

the

dawning of the Age of Aquarius to that of the Cosmos. In whatever way feels

appropriate

for you, you may choose to align with7.25am (UT) or 7.25am your own local time

energizing a wave of intention that will surge around the Earth.

 

Having searched for over a thousand years, I can find no other alignments in the

past of

this incredible significance. But amazingly, at one moment in time nearly fifty

years ago,

the collective voices of our ancient ancestors seem to have been given such a

cosmic voice

to energetically seed this coming Age and the birth of the Aquarian human.

 

In 1962 at the same time on the same day, as 2009, Jupiter and Mars were in

Aquarius in

the twelfth house and the Moon in the seventh house. But then the awesome

concentration of planets that energize the 2009 alignment was missing.

 

And instead of the North Node (higher purpose) being aligned with Jupiter and

Mars as it is

in 2009, it was in opposition.

 

What this means is that back in 1962 it was the so-called south node rather than

the

north node that was aligned with Jupiter and Mars.

 

The south node represents what we bring in from the past. So in 1962 the

potential for us

the birth the Age of Aquarius came through from our collective race memory - but

only

now are we able to fully manifest its higher purpose. In 1962 we essentially

took a

collective in-breath of possibility and now with the cosmic support of the

Aquarian

alignment of 14th February 2009 we are able to take the out-breath and make it

happen.

 

The second verse of the song Aquarius is;

 

Harmony and understanding

Sympathy and trust abounding

No more falsehoods or derisions

Golden living dreams of visions

Magic crystal revelation

And the minds true liberation

Aquarius!

Aquarius!

 

In our sacred journey to Malta we will join our voices to those of our ancestors

and all the

peacemakers throughout the millennia that hoped for and sought to co-create

Heaven on

Mother Earth. Their intentions and hard work kept the possibility of this vision

alive. And

in our time, we have the opportunity to realize their dreams and ours and enable

a

HoMecoming for us all!

 

To find out more about the Sacred Journey to Malta: Awakening to the Great

Creative

Mystery in the Heart of the Mediterranean with Jude Currivan, Ph.D., full

details are

available at www.greatmystery.org/events/malta09.html.

 

 

 

 

, Therese Hamilton <eastwest

wrote:

>

> Hi Everyone,

>

> It occurred to me today that there's really only one way that the zodiac

> issue might be eventually solved. The proof (if it exists) would have to be

> strictly mathematical. There are a number of ways we might use math to

> solve the zodiac issue. Others might be able to think of additional ways to

> use the math.

>

> (1) Timing, which David Monroe has discussed in past posts. At least for

> the present the fixed reference frame seems to give better timing results

> for transits to natal charts and solar and lunar return charts. However, we

> need a lot more work in this area.

>

> (2) Large research projects such as Sari has been doing. These projects

> give pointers to additional work in specific areas. These studies aren't

> conclusive, but are valuable in suggesting further supportive research.

>

> (3) Sign boundaries: Let's say that Neptune conjunct the ascendant seems to

> give certain results within a sign. Do these results change when a new sign

> begins in one zodiac or the other? (The best current source of charts is ADB.)

>

> (4) There are various ways to use varga charts, especially the navamsa, to

> pinpoint key planets. This would come under more advanced research.

>

> (5) We need to find ways of isolating effects in the sign overlap degrees

> between the tropical and sidereal zodiacs. These are the final degrees of

> tropical signs and the early degrees of sidereal signs. In order to cover

> most ayanamsas, we'd need to limit the number of degrees studied.

>

> Just a few thoughts.

>

> Therese

>

[Guest guest]

At 06:33 PM 2/3/09 -0000, Janna wrote:

>Hi Therese:

>

>You replied to a post of mine on Mark Kincaid's list (Nature's Astrology)

about the

>tropical/sidereal zodiac. I am throwing in a 'test of the true zodiac'

without doing much

>analysis of my own. But I thought since it was a topic you were discussing

on this lis that you or others might want to examine February 14, which is

being heralded as the

>beginning of the Age of Aquarius by tropicalists...

 

Hi Janna,

 

At the onset, common sense says that the Age of Aquarius isn't going to be

a sudden event. It will phase in gradually, probably over at least 200 or

more years as the Piscean age wanes. All we have to do is look at the world

today to realize that we have yet to see a new age dawning for humanity.

 

What we're seeing is the full fledged battle between the new era preparing

to enter and the old era hanging on for dear life. The war and bloodshed of

the Piscean age continue. The churches have not yet fallen. The world has

yet to see universal brotherhood. The supposed good will and concern for

our brothers of the Aquarian Age isn't really here yet, except perhaps in

small conclaves and with some individuals.

 

[Janna wrote:]

>Nevertheless, most Vedic astrologers are viewing the Saturn exchange with

Sun in

>Capricorn and Saturn in Leo (and through the Sun's transit in Aquarius)

along with Rahu's conjunction of the planets in Capricorn through

mid-February as a potentially volatile time...

 

Let's wait and see what this period brings. So often astrologers make

predictions based on planetary conditions and nothing happens. However,

with so many planets in tropical Aquarius/Sidereal Capricorn, in some way

we should be seeing the effect of this sign. One obvious effect is the

election of a U.S. president with Capricorn rising and Saturn conjunct

Jupiter in the same sign.

 

Sidereal Capricorn is quite different than tropical Capricorn. Capricorn's

number is 10, a number of the universal. As we all know, Saturn is the

planet associated with Capricorn as its lord. So Saturn in Leo is going to

tone the effects of the stellium. However, first we can take a look at

Saturn in mythology:

 

Saturn in Roman culture wasn't a malefic personage. He brought the

frightened and antagoistic tribes together, teaching them to share and live

together in communities. The reign of Saturn was known as the Golden Age as

he taught the people to trust one another and live together in harmony

(today's democratic ideals. With this mini sketch of Saturn, we can see

reflections of our new president's personal philosophy. Whether he'll be

able to carry out his ideas is another question, and the fact that the

sidereal Capricorn stellium is disposited by Saturn in a sign quite

antagonistic to Saturn's values is another question.

 

I would agree that we can expect some sort of traumatic event or events,

but in order to try to be specific, I'd have to check the stars and other

symbolism. I'd also have to study Obama's horoscope, and perhaps those of

other world leaders and their countries. Or perhaps we can expect more

disasters related to the waters of the earth since from earliest times the

constellation of Capricorn has always been associated with water. I'd also

have to set up ingress charts for various areas of the earth to see if the

critical 8th house aspect between Capricorn and Saturn is in an angular

position.

 

Not having time for all this, my attitude is 'wait and see.' But the Age of

Aquarius? No, we're not there yet. I believe the Vedic astrologers are more

on the mark.

 

Thanks for your post and for posting the article link, Janna. I haven't had

time to read the article thoroughly as yet, but others may want to comment.

To be blunt, a quick scan of the article had me place it in the 'not

relevant' column of my mind. The article seems to be 100 percent 'tropical

think,' but perhaps I missed something!

 

Blessings,

Therese

[Guest guest]

Hi Therese:

 

I agree with many of your points and do think much of the controversy is

" tropical think. "

 

" At the onset, common sense says that the Age of Aquarius isn't going to be

a sudden event. It will phase in gradually, probably over at least 200 or more

years as the

Piscean age wanes. All we have to do is look at the world today to realize that

we have yet

to see a new age dawning for humanity. "

 

One spiritual group with whom I have had a deep connection since the early

seventies is

beginning a 1000 day meditation on February 14, which their spiritual preceptor,

Yogi

Bhajan, prepared in 1992. I am including the link in the event it may be of

interest to

anyone on your list.

Meditation for an Invincible Spirit in the Aquarian Age

http://kriteachings.org/1000day/1000_yrs_and_beyond.htm

11:30 AM (or your time) February 14, 2008

 

You would want to suspend sidereal calculations for the beginning of the Age of

Aquarius

since the meditation is for the 1000 days beginning February 14 and culminating

on November 11, 2011 (11:11:11), heralded as the end of the transitional cusp of

the Age of

Pisces and the beginning of the cusp of the Age of Aquarius, which begins in

2038.

 

I don't know if you are familiar with the Tarot card, I think the six of swords,

which is

sometimes called Navigation, and interpreted as blending scientific knowledge

with

intuitive perception. I am interpreting this 1,000 day practice as perhaps an

indicator of

the coming time until November 2011 as being the most challenging phase of the

ending

of the Piscean Age and the beginning of a new 'dawning of for humanity. " And it

is

interesting to me in light of the information you've provided about Saturn that

it begins

just as the Sun has moved from sidereal Capricorn to Aquarius (although still in

Mars-

ruled Dhanistha), perhaps emphasizing even more the symbolic cusp period between

the

Piscean-Aquarian ages.

 

" What we're seeing is the full fledged battle between the new era preparing to

enter and

the old era hanging on for dear life. The war and bloodshed of the Piscean age

continue.

The churches have not yet fallen. The world has yet to see universal

brotherhood. The

supposed good will and concern for our brothers of the Aquarian Age isn't really

here yet,

except perhaps in small conclaves and with some individuals. "

 

I too have a 'wait and see' attitude and don't think the 'new dawn' of universal

brotherhood

collectively will happen in my lifetime, except perhaps on an inner level. But I

do think

keeping the intention is paramount for those individuals who have been preparing

for the

new age in consciousness, and I do agree that the new US President is the outer

collective

symbol of the transition.

 

Blessings,

Janna

 

 

 

 

 

 

, Therese Hamilton <eastwest

wrote:

>

> At 06:33 PM 2/3/09 -0000, Janna wrote:

> >Hi Therese:

> >

> >You replied to a post of mine on Mark Kincaid's list (Nature's Astrology)

> about the

> >tropical/sidereal zodiac. I am throwing in a 'test of the true zodiac'

> without doing much

> >analysis of my own. But I thought since it was a topic you were discussing

> on this lis that you or others might want to examine February 14, which is

> being heralded as the

> >beginning of the Age of Aquarius by tropicalists...

>

> Hi Janna,

>

> At the onset, common sense says that the Age of Aquarius isn't going to be

> a sudden event. It will phase in gradually, probably over at least 200 or

> more years as the Piscean age wanes. All we have to do is look at the world

> today to realize that we have yet to see a new age dawning for humanity.

>

> What we're seeing is the full fledged battle between the new era preparing

> to enter and the old era hanging on for dear life. The war and bloodshed of

> the Piscean age continue. The churches have not yet fallen. The world has

> yet to see universal brotherhood. The supposed good will and concern for

> our brothers of the Aquarian Age isn't really here yet, except perhaps in

> small conclaves and with some individuals.

>

> [Janna wrote:]

> >Nevertheless, most Vedic astrologers are viewing the Saturn exchange with

> Sun in

> >Capricorn and Saturn in Leo (and through the Sun's transit in Aquarius)

> along with Rahu's conjunction of the planets in Capricorn through

> mid-February as a potentially volatile time...

>

> Let's wait and see what this period brings. So often astrologers make

> predictions based on planetary conditions and nothing happens. However,

> with so many planets in tropical Aquarius/Sidereal Capricorn, in some way

> we should be seeing the effect of this sign. One obvious effect is the

> election of a U.S. president with Capricorn rising and Saturn conjunct

> Jupiter in the same sign.

>

> Sidereal Capricorn is quite different than tropical Capricorn. Capricorn's

> number is 10, a number of the universal. As we all know, Saturn is the

> planet associated with Capricorn as its lord. So Saturn in Leo is going to

> tone the effects of the stellium. However, first we can take a look at

> Saturn in mythology:

>

> Saturn in Roman culture wasn't a malefic personage. He brought the

> frightened and antagoistic tribes together, teaching them to share and live

> together in communities. The reign of Saturn was known as the Golden Age as

> he taught the people to trust one another and live together in harmony

> (today's democratic ideals. With this mini sketch of Saturn, we can see

> reflections of our new president's personal philosophy. Whether he'll be

> able to carry out his ideas is another question, and the fact that the

> sidereal Capricorn stellium is disposited by Saturn in a sign quite

> antagonistic to Saturn's values is another question.

>

> I would agree that we can expect some sort of traumatic event or events,

> but in order to try to be specific, I'd have to check the stars and other

> symbolism. I'd also have to study Obama's horoscope, and perhaps those of

> other world leaders and their countries. Or perhaps we can expect more

> disasters related to the waters of the earth since from earliest times the

> constellation of Capricorn has always been associated with water. I'd also

> have to set up ingress charts for various areas of the earth to see if the

> critical 8th house aspect between Capricorn and Saturn is in an angular

> position.

>

> Not having time for all this, my attitude is 'wait and see.' But the Age of

> Aquarius? No, we're not there yet. I believe the Vedic astrologers are more

> on the mark.

>

> Thanks for your post and for posting the article link, Janna. I haven't had

> time to read the article thoroughly as yet, but others may want to comment.

> To be blunt, a quick scan of the article had me place it in the 'not

> relevant' column of my mind. The article seems to be 100 percent 'tropical

> think,' but perhaps I missed something!

>

> Blessings,

> Therese

>

[Guest guest]

At 09:22 PM 2/8/09 -0000, Janna wrote:

>One spiritual group with whom I have had a deep connection since the early

seventies is

>beginning a 1000 day meditation on February 14, which their spiritual

preceptor, Yogi

>Bhajan, prepared in 1992. I am including the link in the event it may be

of interest to

>anyone on your list.

>Meditation for an Invincible Spirit in the Aquarian Age

>http://kriteachings.org/1000day/1000_yrs_and_beyond.htm

>11:30 AM (or your time) February 14, 2008

-----------------------------

 

Thank you, Janna.

 

Janna wrote:

>You would want to suspend sidereal calculations for the beginning of the

Age of Aquarius

>since the meditation is for the 1000 days beginning February 14 and

culminating on November 11, 2011 (11:11:11), heralded as the end of the

transitional cusp of the Age of

>Pisces and the beginning of the cusp of the Age of Aquarius, which begins

in 2038.

-----------------------------

 

I've followed the 24,000 year cycle discussed in Swami Sri Yukteswar's THE

HOLY SCIENCE. Although I disagree with the start date in that book (At that

time in India the Lahiri zodiac had not yet seen the light of day.), I do

accept the principle: That is, the age of Virgo-Pisces began at the zero

ayanamsa date when the equinoxes aligned with the Virgo-Pisces cusps. This

would be 285 with Lahiri and 291 with Krishnamurti. So adding 2000 to

either date would give us the full entrance into the Age of Leo-Aquarius.

 

Then there are those who don't want to see the Age of Aquarius until the

equinox actually falls among the stars of Aquarius. As Rob Hand has pointed

out, we still have a way to go to reach that date.

 

>Janna wrote:

>(...) I too have a 'wait and see' attitude and don't think the 'new dawn'

of universal brotherhood collectively will happen in my lifetime, except

perhaps on an inner level. But I do think keeping the intention is

paramount for those individuals who have been preparing for the new age in

consciousness, and I do agree that the new US President is the outer

collective symbol of the transition.

 

It will be interesting to see how much our new prsident will be able to

manifest the spirit of transition.

 

Blessings,

Therese